1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: On November twelfth, nineteen ninety five, Brenda Way's body was 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: discovered behind a dumpster in Dartmouth. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 2: Nova Scotia. 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Her throat had been slit with a solid alibi. The 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: initial investigation cleared her ex boyfriend Glennis Soon of the murder, 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: but nearly a year later a new investigator was assigned 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: to this cold case, who used the ramblings of a 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: crack addict seeking leniency in order to bring Glenn back 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: into suspicion. The investigation continued down an increasingly ridiculous path, 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: involving psychics and even more crack addicts. While there was 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: evidence pointing toward a bearded serial killer the entire time, 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: police both disregarded and hid that evidence, though, choosing to 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: stay with the course they knew was a farce, and 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: Glenn spent over sixteen long, miserable years behind bars until 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: Innocence Canada was able to unearth that detail and spring 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: and from prison. However, nothing will ever replace all of 17 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: the years. Is doolan from Glenn and his family. This 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction with Jason Plomm. Welcome back to wrongful 19 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, of course, I'm your host, 20 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: and today you're going to hear a story from north 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: of the border. We have two incredible lawyers, Sean McDonald 22 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: and Phil Campbell from Innocence Canada. Sean, first of all, 23 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thanks for being here. 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: Thanks very much for having me. 25 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: And Phil, I'm so glad that you're here as well 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: to highlight the work that Innocence Canada does because I 27 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: don't believe that this organization gets enough attention and we 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: want to change that. So thanks for being here as well. 29 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: Thanks so much. 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Jason, and of course, save the best for last. We 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: have a guy who I can only call a hero 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: to so many of us, Glenn as Soon, who went 33 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: to hell and back and is here to share his 34 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: story with us. So Glenn, thank you for being here. 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: Thank you. 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 4: I'm glad to be here. 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a miracle that you made it 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: through and that you are here, and it speaks to 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: your strength and your spirit. So I'm really excited that 40 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: you're here and I'm sorry you had to go through this. 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning, Glenn, where did you 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: grow up? 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 4: I grew up in Sydney, k Breton, Nova, Scotia. It's 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 4: a small town. 45 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: And how was your life before this? What were some 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: of your hobbies. 47 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 4: My hobbies was playing a guitar, try to learn how 48 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 4: to play the guitar properly and stuff. Listen to country 49 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 4: music and trying to play country music. 50 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: And you were raising a pretty large family as well 51 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: at the time, right. 52 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 4: Yes, I had three kids to raise back in the seventies. 53 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: And then everything went to hell in a handbasket. We're 54 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: talking about Sunday morning, November twelfth, nineteen ninety five, your 55 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: ex girlfriend, Brenda Way, was discovered behind an apartment building 56 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: in Dartmouth, Nova, Scotia, and her throat had been slit. 57 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: Even I think for avid listeners of the show who've 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: heard so many of these stories, this one is fucking sick. Now, 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: this is where I want to turn to the legal 60 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: team because the preventable nature of all of this is 61 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: so stunning to me. Tell me what the hell happened here? 62 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: So at the beginning, police rightfully interviewed all the people 63 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: that had contact with Brenda Way. They interviewed Glenn. They 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: determined that he had an ALBI. He was with his 65 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: roommate and friend and Morse all night with two other 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: roommates that night. So he had a supportable, credible, truthful, 67 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: most importantly alibi, and in the end it appeared to us, 68 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: at least on the record that we reviewed, that they 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: cleared him as a suspect or at least deprioritized him 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: as a person of interest and moved on to look 71 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: at other things. 72 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we had this excellent alibi within hours of 73 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: the discovery of the body, and sometime in the year 74 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: or two afterwards, the brenda Way homicide shifted to two 75 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: different officers, and those two guys decided that Glennisoon must 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: have done it. And really it's a kind of classic 77 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: example of the tunnel vision that so often characterizes wrongful convictions. Well, 78 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: you stop investigating a crime and you start investigating a person. 79 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: And once they'd fixed on Glenn, the first thing they 80 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: had to do was discredit the alibi. So they pulled 81 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: in Anne Morse, who had told the truth. They arrested 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: her for obstruction of justice for having told the truth. 83 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: They told her she was going to jail for three 84 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: to five years. They intimidated her, and then they finally 85 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: persuaded her that maybe she couldn't know, and maybe she 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: wasn't sure, even though she had always said before then, 87 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: it has always said afterwards that that statement I gave 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 3: the morning Brenda was found was the truth. So they 89 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: thought they had a little c the alibi. And then 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: they started finding recruiting other witnesses, and there was just 91 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 3: a daisy chain of witnesses, each less credible than the other, 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: but collectively they made up the case that the Crown 93 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: eventually put in front of the jewelry. 94 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: It's like they send in the clowns, right. One farcical 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: witness after another is dragged into this. Can you walk 96 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: us through this cast of characters real quick? 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: Glenn was hitting the streets after Brenda was killed, trying 98 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: to find out who killed her. One of the people 99 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: Glenn was regularly speaking with was a woman by the 100 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: name of Margaret Hartrick. Margaret was a well known street prostitute. 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: Now it's interesting because at different times Margaret Hartrick would 102 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: call Glenn and say I have information on Brenda's murder. 103 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: And there were a number of occasions where Glenn brought 104 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: Margaret to the attention of the police because she was 105 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: telling him I know what happened. I'm hearing on the streets. 106 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: What's happening, and Glenn was saying, well, you know, tell 107 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: the police. Eventually was picked up by the police in 108 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: relation to a customer of hers who had died, and 109 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: while she was speaking to the police about this, she 110 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: said to them, well, I also have information on Brenda 111 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: Way's homicide. And so the police officer said, okay, well 112 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 2: you know what do you have to say, and they 113 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: sat her down and she started to go on this 114 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: rambling die tribe about psychic visions and psychic dreams that 115 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: she had where she saw areas of Dartmouth where Brenda 116 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: was taken by different people and how she was killed, 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: to the point where the cops just said, look, thanks 118 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: for the information, and they started to shuffle her out 119 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: the door, or at least that this is the way 120 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: they recall the conversation and when they testified at Glenn's trial, 121 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: and then Margaret suddenly said, well, I guess you don't 122 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: care that Glenn was at the site of the murder 123 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: at four point fifteen am and the morning Brenda was killed. 124 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: So suddenly they're saying that she's changing her evidence. After 125 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: forty five minutes of psychic ramblings, after months and months 126 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: of ramblings, with Glenn to the police and puts Glenn 127 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: at the scene of the murder, inconsistent with the alibi 128 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: that they already checked out and found to be credible. 129 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: And that was the moment where the new officers investigating 130 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: this case had their witness. The investigation increased in pace 131 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 2: from that point forward. 132 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 3: The next development was the emergence of Brenda's sister, Jane. 133 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 3: Jane told the police that she had found a knife, 134 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: and she said that she had been looking for the 135 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: knife near the scene of the crime, which had been 136 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: thoroughly searched by police, because a psychic had told her 137 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: that her sister was killed by a broken tipped knife, 138 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: and lo and behold, she had gone out, looked around 139 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: the area adjacent to the murder and found a broken 140 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: tipped knife. The police would ultimately seize this knife. The 141 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 3: knife would have no forensic evidence that tied it either 142 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: to the homicide or to Glennis soon but it ultimately 143 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: became an exhibited trial and it became the focal point 144 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: of the next key witness's story, and that is a 145 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: woman named Mary Cameron. Mary Cameron was, unsurprisingly to us, 146 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: a friend of Jane, the sister, and she popped up 147 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 3: to the police with a story that she had been 148 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 3: with a friend of hers and Glenn had walked in 149 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: and said, I killed her. I got her ear to ear, 150 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: I cut her so hard I broke off the tip 151 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: of the knife. This is a confession. He supposedly volunteers 152 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: in front of a complete stranger, and Mary becomes the 153 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: next crown witness, even though the woman who she was 154 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: with her friend, who also knew Glenn, flatly denied that 155 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 3: any such conversation had taken place. So that's Margaret and 156 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: now Mary. So. 157 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 2: Brenda's cousin is a woman by the name of Karen Way. Karen, 158 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: within two weeks of the murder, was at a bar 159 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: with her boyfriend and heard two guys walking down the 160 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 2: bar in this dark, seedy bar in Dartmouth, one guy 161 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: telling the other guy, you should have seen the look 162 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: on Brenda Way's face when I slid her throat. And 163 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: the guy who said it was a burly guy with 164 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: dark hair and a beard, and it was so disturbing 165 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: to Karen. Karen calls the police. Police show up and 166 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: they do nothing. They take a report. That report gets filed. 167 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: The officers did not go back to Karen Wade to 168 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: try and talk to her about what she saw. They 169 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 2: didn't go to the bar, they didn't look at cameras 170 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: around the bar, they didn't do anything. And that description 171 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: very closely tracks the description of Michael Wayne McGray, who 172 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: is a serial killer currently doing life in prison, I 173 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: think for seven murders or maybe eight that he's confessed 174 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: to so far. The detective that investigated Glenn didn't give 175 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: a crap about that evidence. Nothing was done with it. 176 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: It's so sickening because, aside from the grotesque injustice that 177 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: was done to Glenn and his family, all they had 178 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: to do was follow up on that and then the 179 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: rest of this mayhem could have been avoided and these 180 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: other victims would never have known the terrible fate that 181 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: befell them. So it's just sickening. It doesn't make any sense. 182 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: It's never going to make any sense. But Glenn, back 183 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: to you, So back in March of nineteen ninety eight, 184 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: you surrendered to the police, right, and you still maintained 185 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: that this was just going to get worked out because 186 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: you was somebody who I presuming believed in the justice system. 187 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought it was going to be worked out 188 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 4: in two weeks time at the tops because I knew 189 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 4: I was innocent. I knew they were making a mistake. 190 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 4: But I found out that there was a Candon wide 191 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 4: warrantone for me, So I turned myself into the RCMP. 192 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 4: They arrested me. They took me on a plane, took 193 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 4: me back to Nova Scotia, and I was never so 194 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 4: embarrassing all my life since shackles and chains. Going to 195 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 4: an airport. It was clogg full of people. It's just 196 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 4: all happened so fast. 197 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: So they gave you a polygraph. You passed a polygraph, 198 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: but of course they ignored that as well, and you 199 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: were smart enough to see what they were up to, 200 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: which is why you requested a lawyer. But now it 201 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: takes a crazy turn in the courtroom, and Sean, if 202 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: you could take us through. 203 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: That, Glenn didn't see eyed eye with the lawyer that 204 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: he had. Glenn's approach was pretty simple, I'm innocent. Bring 205 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 2: everybody in that you can find to say whatever they 206 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: have to say, because the truth will show the jury 207 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: that I didn't commit this murder. And that created tension 208 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 2: between him and his lawyer. That hit a crescendo and 209 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: Glenn fired his lawyer at the very beginning of a 210 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: long jury trial of four second degree murder, and at 211 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: that point Glenn was granted a short adjournment to try 212 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: and find another lawyer. However, inmates inside of correctional facilities 213 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 2: can't just go to a phone anytime they want, pick 214 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: it up and dial a lawyer. They've got to have 215 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: somebody accept a cleck call. On the other end. They 216 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: have to have a lawyer who's willing to talk to them, 217 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: and they have to have a lawyer who's capable and 218 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: has the time to prepare for a murder trial. And 219 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: in Glenn's case, those things didn't align and the court 220 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: lost patience with him, and the judge said, I'm not 221 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: giving you any more time. You're going to represent yourself 222 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: with a grade six education and don't worry about it. 223 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: Everybody has to have their first case, and that is 224 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: when Glenn's trial started. 225 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: This is basically like asking someone to go perform surgery 226 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: on themselves. I mean, I think that's not an unfair comparison, 227 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: because the odds of success are about the same. And 228 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: at one point, Glenn, you told the jury you're innocent, 229 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: and that evidence was being hidden from them all of 230 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: which was true. And then the judge ordered the sheriffs 231 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: to physically cover your mouth and drag you out of 232 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: the courtroom in front of the jury as you screamed 233 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: out your innocence. It's a fucking horror show. What was 234 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: that like from your perspective? 235 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: I said to myself, I need a lawyer. I can't 236 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 4: do this. So I decided when the judge came in, 237 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell her that I need a lawyer. So 238 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: long story short, I had no idea that you can 239 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: speak in front of the jury. And I stood up 240 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 4: and said, your honor, I'm an innocent man. 241 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: I need a lawyer. 242 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 4: She said, take him out. 243 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: Take him out. 244 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 4: So two sheriffs dragged me across the courtroom floor and 245 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 4: right in front of the jury. The judge said, if 246 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: I hear any more outbursts of you, miss or as 247 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 4: soon you'll be watching your trial tow circuit camera. All 248 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 4: I could do is stay up all night and read 249 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 4: statements and write out questions to ask these people say 250 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 4: if I get them in their lives. Every time I 251 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 4: would get to a point where I was putting them 252 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: in a corner where they had no choice to tell 253 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 4: the truth. To crown and object and clear the courtroom. 254 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 4: I don't know how many times the jury was cleared 255 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 4: in the courtroom, several and I was exhausted, but I 256 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 4: kept on going through. 257 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: It, and of course the results were predictable. September seventeenth, 258 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, the jury went out and they found 259 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: you guilty of second degree murder. And can you describe 260 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: that horrible moment for us? 261 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 4: It was a field never felt before. And I stood 262 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 4: up and said, I'm wrongly convicted. Now it's official. And 263 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 4: she objected to it. She said, mister Sonia had your 264 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: chance to testify and trials over. Now you can't be talking. 265 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 4: I knew I was being railroads, Railroads to hell. 266 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 267 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 268 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands 269 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: of hours of free legal services and other support to 270 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 271 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 272 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: pillar of its mission. This episode is brought to you 273 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated 274 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: to helping people improve their lives. For more than twenty years, 275 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: Stand Together and its partners have been on the front 276 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: lines of criminal justice reform. By empowering people to take action, 277 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: supporting nonprofits, and working with businesses, Stand Together tackles the 278 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: root causes of problems in our communities and empowers those 279 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: closest to the problems to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing 280 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: unjust prison sentences through the First Step Act, empowering community 281 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: based programs and help people re enter society, and now 282 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: working to bridge divides in our communities. To learn how 283 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: you may get involved, visit standtogether dot org slash conviction. 284 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: There you are sentenced to eighteen and a half years 285 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: to life on December thirteenth of nineteen ninety nine. I 286 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: think many people in the United States have a vision 287 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: of Canada as a peaceful place with a more just 288 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: system that is violent perhaps, But in fact the prisons 289 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: there are just as bad as here, and you were 290 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: sent to one of the worst ones. Is that correct? 291 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: That's correct? 292 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 4: And I went to Dorchester Penitentiary and that's the last 293 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: I had seen any scenery because of the forty five 294 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 4: foot wall around the place. And that's all I seen, 295 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 4: is that wall. And it was dangerous there for me. 296 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 4: I almost got killed there a dozen times. I was 297 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: telling anybody and everybody who would listen to me, because 298 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 4: I'm an innocent man. They made a mistake. So I 299 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: knew a guy in there who has done leather work. 300 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: I had a hat with just a blank hat, and 301 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 4: I got him to make up a patch on my hat. 302 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 4: Wrongly convicted nineteen ninety eight. And I wore that hat 303 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 4: around the prison until I wore it out, and then 304 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 4: the guards took it from me. The guards came to 305 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 4: me one day and they said, we're putting you in 306 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: the hole. I said, why he put me in the hole? 307 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: I didn't do anything. So they handcuffed me, took me 308 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 4: down the hole. They got me in there, and they 309 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 4: shoved me against the wall and they got me on 310 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 4: the floor, and I was still handcuffed behind my back. 311 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 4: Mind you, and this guard, he would weighed about two 312 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 4: hundred seventy five pounds, he was beat me with the 313 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 4: It looks like I was seeing a steel pipe. So 314 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 4: he was beat me over the head with that and 315 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 4: he broke my ankles with it. And they cut the 316 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 4: clothes off me right there with a pair of scissors 317 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 4: while I was still laying in my face taking a beaten, 318 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 4: and they beat me half to dead, and then they 319 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 4: took me into a camera cell and just left me 320 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 4: there for about five hours. The only thing I had 321 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 4: on me was my underwear. They cut the boots off 322 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 4: of me and everything. The only thing was in there 323 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: was a toilet and the sink, and the sink didn't work, 324 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: so the toilet did. I was beat so bad I 325 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: flushed the toilet a few times and I drank water 326 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 4: the toilet. I was so dehydrated from the beaten that 327 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 4: it took me. 328 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to even hear this story, and 329 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,239 Speaker 1: I just, you know, I want to apologize to you 330 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: on behalf of you know, the entire human race, because 331 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: nobody should ever be subjected to a fraction of what 332 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: you went through. And you had to go through all 333 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: of it. And here you are a guy that I 334 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: think a lot of people can probably late to you 335 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: more than you know. I mean, here you are a 336 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: guy in your forties, five 'ot five, one hundred and 337 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: forty pounds, no history of violence, no ability to navigate 338 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: this foreign situation that you're thrust into. It's literally something 339 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: out of a movie that would give anybody nightmares, and 340 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: you went through it, but somehow or other, you got 341 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: through it, and then you know, things eventually turned around. 342 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: How did Innocence Canada become aware of the case and 343 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: how did you manage to unravel this insanity? 344 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: Added around two thousand and six, I was in the 345 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: Innocence Canada office for a meeting with our executive director, 346 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: and I had some time to kill and I was 347 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: sitting in the boardroom. And in the boardroom at Innocence Canada, 348 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: like most innocence organizations across the country or the world, 349 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: there's boxes of documents and memos everywhere. So I happened 350 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: to pick one up and it was a memo written 351 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: by a lawyer at Innocence Canada by the name of 352 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: Jerome Kennedy. And Jerome had represented Glenn a year beforehand 353 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: on his appeal. And as I turned the pages, as 354 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: everybody does with this case, I got madder, and I 355 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 2: got madder and I got madder, And by the time 356 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: I finished that overview memo, I was in And from 357 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: that point forward, I knew that I wasn't going to 358 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 2: start I wasn't going to stop working on Glenn's case 359 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: until we were able to get them justice. 360 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: So I looked at the five witnesses that were called 361 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 3: a trial from the perspective of an appellate lawyer, and 362 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 3: Mary Cameron was the strongest crown or prosecution witness. But 363 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 3: Sean did some digging on her and eventually she signed 364 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: an affidavit that took back most of her evidence, and 365 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 3: Kathy Vlad, who had witnessed the supposed confession, made it 366 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: very clear that nothing like that had ever happened. We 367 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 3: managed to develop links between the sister of Brenda, Jane, 368 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 3: who was led by the psychic to the knife, with 369 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 3: the three core witnesses in the case. Each of them 370 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 3: had connections to Jane or to her family, and so 371 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 3: the thing started to crumble. But critical to it was 372 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: a girl who also worked the streets of Halifax and 373 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: who experienced something dreadful in the winter of nineteen ninety 374 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 3: six ninety seven. We call her Meghan. That's a pseudonym, 375 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: but Megan had been picked up by a burly man 376 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: with dark hair and a dark beard, and he had 377 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 3: taken her out to an industrial site in the middle 378 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: of winter at night in the dark, assaulted her and 379 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 3: raped her and then rather than killing her, drove her 380 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 3: back into the city and in the course of that 381 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 3: admitted that he was the killer of Brenda Way. Glenn 382 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 3: had been brought back from British Columbia in the spring 383 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety nine, in a blaze of local publicity, 384 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 3: arrested for the murder of Brendaway. Meghan had seen that 385 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: on TV and said, well, that must be the guy 386 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 3: who assaulted me and confessed to killing Brendaway. And so 387 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: she went to the police with that story, believing that 388 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: it was true, although the man she described had striking 389 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 3: similarities to the description of themand that Karen Way had 390 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: heard brag about committing the murder days after it had 391 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: happened in nineteen ninety five. Glenn, as it turned out, 392 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 3: had spent that whole winter when that attack took place 393 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 3: in Halifax, on the other coast of Canada, thirty five 394 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: hundred miles away, and that could be documented. However, the 395 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 3: Crown at trial ran a theory that Glenn had somehow 396 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 3: gotten a plane ticket flow into Halifax in the middle 397 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: of winter, raped Megan, confessed to the murder of Brenda, 398 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 3: and then flown back without any other trace no evidence 399 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: of his presence in Halifax, no evidence of his flight 400 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: from British Columbia to Halifax. By the time of Glenn's appeal, 401 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: in the early two thousands, Michael McGray, a burly bearded man, 402 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 3: had been arrested and publicly identified as a serial killer. Indeed, 403 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 3: he had shown a propensity to brag about his killings, 404 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: and he bragged about killings enough that he was quickly 405 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 3: identified as a serial killer. With McGray in custody and 406 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: publicly known as a serial killer, Jerome Kennedy, acting for 407 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 3: Glenn on appeal, asked for disclosure of what the police 408 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: had on Michael mcgrae, and the police came back with 409 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 3: a document that said that he was not viewed as 410 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: a suspect by the police and the killing of Brenda Way. 411 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: Jerome tried to advance that to the Court of Appeal, 412 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: but it had no substance and it was rejected as 413 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: a ground of appeal and Glenn's conviction was upheld. So 414 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: that's the case that we were handed and we thought 415 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 3: that Michael McGray looked like a good suspect if we 416 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: just had more evidence about him. And at that point, Sean, 417 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: who was a lawyer, but also an on the ground 418 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: investigator in this case, got in touch with a couple 419 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 3: of guys by just working the prison system. 420 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: During the course of those inquiries, we found two people 421 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 2: who had done time with Michael McGray, and both of 422 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 2: those witnesses, independent of one another, none of whom knew Glenn, 423 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 2: told us stories about McGray, providing detail of murders that 424 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: he committed to them while they were in prison together. 425 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 2: The story they told was chilling, and it was chilling 426 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 2: not only because it demonstrated what we felt we already knew, 427 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: which was that Glenn was innocent. They were disturbing because 428 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: of the detail they provided, and these people had no 429 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: idea what details attached to Brenda Way's murder. But suddenly 430 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: we're getting these people giving us AffA Davis providing that detail. 431 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: We later found out that McGray had lived but one 432 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: hundred yards away from where the body was found, and 433 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: we had another witness that came to us and told 434 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: us they moved out of that apartment McGray and his 435 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: girlfriend within forty eight hours of the murder. And not 436 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: only did they move out, they left their furniture on 437 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: the front stoop. 438 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 3: So we've got McGray as a very plausible alternative of 439 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: suspect in this case. Remember Megan, Meghan added one other 440 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 3: really striking feature, the only very distinctive feature about her description. 441 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: She said that the man who had confessed to Brenda's 442 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 3: murder while raping and assaulting her, though it was the 443 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 3: middle of winter and a very cold night with snow 444 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 3: on the ground, was wearing socks and sandals on his feet. 445 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 3: When we began to look at photos of McRae and 446 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: then talk to these inmates who knew him, it became 447 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: clear that that was a very well known characteristic of 448 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: Michael McGray. So we've got a guy who fits the description, 449 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 3: including in that unique way, who fits the m O perfectly, 450 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: and so we were developing that for the Minister of 451 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: Justice when something really stunning happened. We got information from 452 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: your retired ur CMP officer that he had been speaking 453 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: with another RCMP officer who knew much more than we 454 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 3: ever dreamed about Glennis Soon's case and about Michael mcgrae. 455 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: This fellow was an officer with the Behavioral Profiling Unit 456 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 3: of the RCMP in Halifax, and he accumulated every data 457 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: point possible about mcgrae. He spent the better part of 458 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: a year conducting an investigation into McGray, but specifically into 459 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: the murder of Brenda Way, which by this point was 460 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: a solved, closed case, and he eventually reached the conclusion 461 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: that mcgrae or another guy he identified were very probable 462 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: killers of Brenda Way, and that Glenisoon was innocent. He 463 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 3: had tried his best for months and months to get 464 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: somebody in either the RCMP which he worked for, or 465 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: the Halifax Police Service, which had investigated this case, to 466 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: do something about it. And remember, Glenn is still before 467 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: the Court of Appeal while this is happening, and not 468 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 3: only that, but Jerome Kennedy, his lawyer, has made a 469 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: specific request of the prosecution to obtain information about mcgrae 470 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: to see whether there was anything relevant that he could 471 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 3: use on Glen's appeal, and rather than disclosing this information, 472 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: the report he got back from the Crown, who got 473 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: it from the police was that there was no relevant 474 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 3: information and McGray was not viewed as a suspect. It 475 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: is hard to believe, but it is as blatant and 476 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: as well documented as I have just summarized it. Eventually, 477 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 3: we were able to establish exactly what I've just said 478 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 3: that is that the police themselves had identified Michael mcgrae 479 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 3: as a suspect for the murder Glenn was doing time for, 480 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 3: and had suppressed it throughout the appellate process. 481 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to just go through that again because it's 482 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: so incredibly just breathtaking in terms of the misconduct. While 483 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice was investigating, but unbeknownst to Glenn 484 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: or his legal team, this police officer, this good cop, 485 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: conducted a multi year investigation into Glenn's conviction and concluded 486 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: that he was innocent. He had concluded that a serial 487 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: killer McGray had lived one hundred yards from the murder 488 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: scene and was the real killer. Oh my god. And 489 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: then it gets worse. So this guy, to his credit, 490 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: told all of his superiors that he believed there was 491 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: an innocent man in prison with Glenn, of course, but 492 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: instead of looking into the claims and freeing Glenn, as 493 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: they clearly should have done, they transferred this officer from 494 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: his unit and destroyed the fucking evidence that he had 495 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: compiled over the course of his investigation. I mean, there's 496 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: really there's a special place in hell for people who 497 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: conducted themselves in this manner. I don't know how else 498 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: to say it. 499 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in slightly less colorful language, that was our 500 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: submission to the Minister of Justice. 501 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 1: Well, well, it's a good thing I didn't write it. 502 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 3: So between the information that suggested mcgrae was the killer 503 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: and the massive constitutional violation represented by the non disclosure 504 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 3: of evidence of innocence, we eventually had a very powerful 505 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 3: case for first getting Glenn out of jail, which we 506 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: managed to do in twenty fourteen, and then getting him exonerated, 507 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 3: which the Minister of Justice and then the Supreme Court 508 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 3: of Nova Scotia did in twenty nineteen. 509 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: Glenn, what was it like to walk out of this 510 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: living tomb that you were in, this torture chamber, into 511 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: free air for the first time in this century. 512 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 4: It was the happiest day of my life. I couldn't 513 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 4: I couldn't be any happier, And it was just astronomical 514 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: feeling of happiness to be a free man. And I 515 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 4: don't know, I can't explain the feeling euphor you that 516 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 4: I felt when I first got to my brother's place. 517 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 4: The first day I woke up a freeman in a 518 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 4: beautiful home. I went outside just to smell the air, 519 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 4: and I went out in the backyard and I wouldn't 520 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 4: go overs for about a week. I was too scared 521 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 4: to go anywhere because I thought the cops are going 522 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 4: to frame me again. 523 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: So it took still almost another five years for the 524 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: full exoneration. And I want to talk to the guys 525 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: about how good did you feel? How good do you 526 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: feel today knowing that Glenn is never going back. He's 527 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: never gonna have to wear an ankle monitor again, He's 528 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: never going to be subjected to this inhumane system again. 529 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: You know. 530 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 2: I think the person who summed it up best was 531 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: the judge that acquitted Glenn on March the first of 532 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. It was Justice Chipman, and he said, you 533 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: kept the faith with remarkable dignity and that you are 534 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: to be commended for your courage and your resilience. You 535 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: are a freeman. I sincerely wish you every success, And 536 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: that sort of summed up our feelings to Glenn has 537 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: been steadfast. I mean, he is now a member of 538 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: our family. He's not just a client. That's the truth. 539 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: You know. I get asked very often two things, whether 540 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: the people who framed the innocent man or woman faced 541 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: any disciplinary actions, much less prison for their own misconduct. 542 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: And whether or not the person who suffered so greatly 543 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: the exonerated person themselves received any compensation. And I'm assuming 544 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: the answer to both of those questions in this case 545 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: is unfortunately no. 546 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 3: So no. 547 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 5: Actually, this case has really taken on an increased significance 548 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 5: in Canada anyway, because it is the first case in 549 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 5: Canadian history where the Premier, or in other words, of 550 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 5: the governor of the province in which the wrongful conviction 551 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 5: took place ordered his Attorney general to start in a 552 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 5: criminal investigation into the officers who were involved and contributed 553 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 5: to the miscarriage of justice and the destruction of the evidence. 554 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 5: So the answer is yes to that, And the second 555 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 5: part of your question with respect to compensation is also 556 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 5: yes to the credit of Prime Minister Trudeau and Attorney 557 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: General Lametti and of course the government of Nova Scotia. 558 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 5: They came to the table and took this very serious. 559 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 5: They understood that it was an egregious wrongful conviction of 560 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 5: sort of historic proportions, and we were able to negotiate 561 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 5: a financial compensation package for Glenn that as far as 562 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 5: money can contribute, it's going to give him an opportunity 563 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 5: to try and as best he can with the years 564 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 5: he has left, move on with his life. And you 565 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 5: have a pickup truck and a dog and maybe you 566 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 5: know a little place in the woods where he can 567 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 5: sort of relax and try and find peace to the 568 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 5: extent that he can. 569 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: Well, that's amazing news and I'm so glad they finally 570 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: came around on this. But nothing is ever going to 571 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: make up for all the time lost. Now this does 572 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: go a long way towards making Glenn more comfortable. As 573 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: you said, I like the visual with a pickup truck 574 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: and the dog, but he deserves every blessing that life 575 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: has to offer. If anyone wants to get involved or 576 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: help out with the great work that Innocence Canada is doing, 577 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 1: your help would go a long way. So we're going 578 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: to have a link in the episode bio and you 579 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: could also follow Innocence Canada on Instagram. Scroll down, click 580 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: get involved. And now this is as good a time 581 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: as any to turn to the part of the show 582 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: called closing arguments. First of all, I want to thank 583 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: Sean McDonald, Phil Campbell, and most of all Glenn Asson 584 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: for joining me and us here and sharing your story 585 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: and your spirit with our audience. And now I'm going 586 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: to turn my microphone off, kick back in my chair 587 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: and just listen as you say whatever you want to say, 588 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: whatever that's left to say. And let's start with Phil, 589 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: then Sewan and Glen. 590 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: Of course, one of the things I find about innocence 591 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: cases like Glenn's is that when you look back on them, 592 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 3: when you start to unravel them, you see so many 593 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: places where things could have taken a different turn, where 594 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 3: things could have gone right but went wrong. There's never 595 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 3: just one thing. There's always a cascade of injustice and error. 596 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: And when I think back to the original police who 597 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 3: had a sound alibi and acted on it and treated 598 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 3: it with the seriousness that deserve, that was one place 599 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 3: where things could have gone right but went wrong. When 600 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 3: I think back to the trial that Glenn went through, 601 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,479 Speaker 3: and this was not a contest of equal adversaries, and 602 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: then I think of the appellate process when the truth 603 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 3: not just a glimpse into the truth, but a full 604 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 3: dossier on the truth about what I believe is the 605 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 3: real killer in this case was a veil to the authorities, 606 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: and it didn't emerge when you go through that kind 607 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: of history, you realize what I think is the great 608 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 3: lesson of the criminal law, which is that we should 609 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: always approach this business of arresting people and charging them 610 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 3: with crimes, and putting them on trial and throwing them 611 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: in jail. We should always approach it humbly, because we 612 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: are fallible, and our processes, as well refined and carefully 613 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 3: reviewed as they are, are fallible. The police we trust, 614 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 3: the prosecutors we trust, the juries we trust. All of 615 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 3: those things will fail sometimes, and we are best to 616 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 3: go at this whole business of crime and punishment with 617 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 3: a lighter, humbler touch. And this case, just to me, illustrates, 618 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 3: as so many do, how many ways there are to 619 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 3: go wrong, and how vigilant we should be to ensure 620 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 3: that things go right. 621 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: I look at this case as the evolution of not 622 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: just a wrongful conviction case, but for me, looking back 623 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: now more the evolution of a friendship, in the friendship 624 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: that I developed with Glenn, from the first call that 625 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: he made to my phone when it was only the 626 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 2: two of us in this world. It was him on 627 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: a penitentiary payphone, me on my phone talking to a 628 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: guy that I clearly knew was in some deep, deep pain. 629 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 6: And uh, you know, the evolution of that as it 630 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 6: expanded and we started to work harder and get more 631 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 6: evidence slowly as It's sort of the gratitude that Glenn 632 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 6: and I felt as more and more people got involved, 633 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 6: including Phil. 634 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 2: Using the resources of Innocence Canada. We used many investigators. 635 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 2: One in particular who isn't here today who died. His 636 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 2: name is Steve Jones. Was an amazing investigator. I'm grateful 637 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 2: to Steve. I'm grateful to Fred Fitzimmons, who was another 638 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: investigator who was an x RCMP pomicide investigator who probably 639 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: put one hundred people in jail for murder rightfully, but 640 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 2: believed in Glenn's innocence. You know, I'm grateful to everybody 641 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 2: else that got involved, including celebrities like Michael B. Jordan 642 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: supported Glenn's case and did a video and we're in 643 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: the process now of writing him to thank But the 644 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: point is that as the case evolved, our friendship evolved, 645 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: and as more people got involved, both Glenn and I 646 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: are thankful to everybody that helped bring it to this point. 647 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 4: Over to you, well, I'd just like to say to 648 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 4: my two lawyers Sean McDonald and Philed Campbell. I'm so 649 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 4: grateful for your help and for saving my life. Because 650 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 4: you did, you literally saved my life. If you had 651 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 4: to come along, I wouldn't have made it. I would 652 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 4: have been dead by now. Just let you know, I 653 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 4: had four heart attacks in prison and they only took 654 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 4: me out for one and I got stints in my heart. 655 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 4: Now I only got thirty five percent of my heart 656 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 4: left because of what happened to me. 657 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: Well, we love you, Glenn, as simple as that. 658 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. 659 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 660 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 661 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 662 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: Cliburn and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show, as always, 663 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 664 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 665 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 666 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 667 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one