WEBVTT - Bandon Deep Dives: Bandon Dunes 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:05.880 And when I find my. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.319 Ball in a brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.040 Frida Egg, brid Egg, Frida Egg, bride Egg Lie. 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.080 I'm about ready to run off of the hump course. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.919 Hello and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.440 is Garrett Morrison, and today we have our final installment 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.960 of our Bandon Deep Dive series. We're focusing on Bandon Dunes. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:50.600 This is a long awaited last piece of this series, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.960 but of course I'm here with Andy Johnson to discuss 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.400 Bandon Dunes. How you doing, Andy, I'm doing great. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.520 I'm you know. I'm excited that this series is going 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:01.760 to be done. I will have to find a hope 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.959 for it on the website where it's easily accessible. But 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.440 if you haven't, if you scroll through the back catalog, 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.320 we've broken down every other eighteen hole golf course at 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.600 Bandon and it is wonderful to get to the final 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.959 of our installments. The first golf course at Bandon. Bandon 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:23.520 Dune's the namesake. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.679 Yeah, we've gone in reverse chronological order, so we started 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.720 with Sheep Ranch and now we've arrived at Bandon dune'es 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.759 the og course at the resort. It opened in nineteen 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.280 ninety nine. It was designed by David McLay Kidd and 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.200 it met with immediate acclaim. It still is the most 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.360 popular course at the resort. Right. 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.960 It was interesting. I was recently playing with somebody who 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.360 brought up Bandon Dunes. They're like, you know, band It's 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.080 just my favorite course there. And I was like, oh, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.520 I was like, I was like, and he went on 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.440 and he goes, you know, I'll never forget in nineteen 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.480 ninety nine driving up you know that he was in 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.160 San Francisco, driving up to Bandon and playing that course 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.280 for the first time, and it was truly, you know, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.400 like it was. He talked about how he played the 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.320 Reese Jones course that Sandy whatever is down the road. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.760 There's a yeah, there's a rest Jones course in Florence. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.919 Yeah, so you talked about how they played Florence Golf 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.680 Links first and he was like, what is this And 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.320 then they went to Bandon Dunes and they were like, 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:33.080 oh my god, this is truly spectacular golf on like, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.320 you know, in a way It brought a different type 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.160 of golf to the American scene, and obviously that's been 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:44.679 well documented, but this was a really a culture changing 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.560 golf course for America. 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:51.240 Absolutely, it's it's incredibly important. Now we're going to talk 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.600 about that, but we're also going to talk about the 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.919 architecture of Bandon Dunes in a way that people might 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.560 not be used to. I think that people might not 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.680 get completely what they expect from this podcast. We are 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.320 going to be critical of this course in a way 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:11.080 that maybe not many people have been so far. You 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.600 know that there's there's criticism of anything out there, you 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.400 can find it anywhere, but generally the reviews of Bandon 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.720 Dunes are pretty glowing, and I think we might have 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.320 some more negative things to say than most people would. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.560 But before we get into that, I want to just 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.800 make clear the level of course we're talking about here 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.320 and the level of course that exists at the Bandon 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:40.800 Dunes Resort in general. Bandon Dunes. This course is spectacular, yes, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.840 and I'm sure it was absolutely stunning in nineteen ninety 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.880 nine and it's still remarkable today. And so I want 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.520 to kind of set a baseline here. We're talking about 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.840 a truly remarkable golf course. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.880 I agree. You know, when you're talking about the greatest 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.440 public golf courses in America, you know, it's definitely on 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.240 the list of greatest public golf courses in America. You know, 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.560 where I would put it is far far lower than 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.240 a lot of other people would When you get past 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.120 just like it's golf on the ocean and start to 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.840 look at some of the maybe some of the flaws, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.640 I think it kind of knocks it down some pegs, 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.640 and especially when you compare it to the other golf 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.520 courses of the resort. And I think it's important to note, like, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.280 you know, this is a very inexperienced architect going to 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.880 build a golf course, and it was, as you've illuminated 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.760 a few times, that this was a transition period. And 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.159 what Banded Dunes to me is is it's kind of 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.920 stuck between two eras. And I don't want to feel 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.320 like I'm bashing it, but it is somewhat of a 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:52.440 nineteen nineties golf course on the coast of Oregon. It 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:57.040 is not a fully minimalist experience that you would see 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.000 at the other courses where the features of the golf 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.960 course really blend in with the nature around it. It 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.160 is a really stark contrast when you look at pictures 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.640 of Abandoned Dune's next to Pacific Dunes. In that corner 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.000 where the eleventh hole Pacific Dunes is and the sixth 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.720 hole Abandoned Dunes is. You see the man made artificiality 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.280 of Bandon dunees really pop when you see those that 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.640 golf course right next to it, and I think, like, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.480 this is beyond just the man made features. I think 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.279 design wise it is a significant downgrade from the other 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:34.920 golf courses at the resort. 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.120 Yeah, So first I think we should set the scene 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:43.080 for how this course was designed, who was designed by, 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.039 because it wasn't just David McLay Kidd being the sole 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.560 voice in the room here. This was Mike Kaiser's project 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.600 and Jimmy Kidd and Jimmy Kid. Jimmy Kidd, David Kidd's father, 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.800 who was the director of agronomy at Glenn Eagles in Scotland, 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:03.080 was especially in the early stages of this project. There 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.599 were a lot of voices in the room. Building this 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.720 course was a massive risk. A lot of people were 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.599 saying that Mike Kaiser should not do this, that This 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.080 was a bad idea. Nobody had really done anything like 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.880 it before. There had been sand Hills, but that's a 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.120 private club, and so there was some safety in that. 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.039 You knew that people were going to be paying a 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:25.920 lot to be part of the club, and so you 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.440 didn't need a lot of business to go there. You 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.640 don't need people playing sand Hills dawn to dusk every day. 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.160 Mike Kaiser needed people to show up to Bandon Dunes. 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.600 This was a huge risk because it's so remote. 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.839 And the idea of resorts were being close to metropolitan 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.160 areas at the time. You know, like if you think 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:50.320 about resorts in the van, like Barton Springs or Barton 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.000 Creek in Austin would be a great example. Like it's 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.479 just outside Austin. That's like somewhat of a contemporary of 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.960 this resort. You know. The ideology was to build the 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.080 resources where people could easily get to them. In the 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.279 case of Banded Dunes, this is more of a truly 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:14.160 a field of dreams mentality that is now like almost 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.960 is the norm. What Mike Kaiser did was he went 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.000 and found a great piece of land and built a 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:23.600 golf course on it. That's now the riding mentality of 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.920 golf courses. It almost the first question when a new 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.080 course is being built is is it on sand? You know? 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.800 And this is what Mike Kaiser really popularized, and obviously 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:35.560 sand Hills was at the origin of this. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.840 I can't emphasize this enough. In the late nineties, nobody 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.080 knew whether this would work, and so I think on 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.440 this project, on this build, Mike Kaiser had to do 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.920 a number of things to make it as safe as possible. Now, 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.280 hiring David Kidd might not have been the safest move, 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.920 you know, wasn't the safest thing that he possibly could 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:58.840 have done. The safest thing that he possibly could have 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:00.040 done would have been a higher. 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:04.040 J Nicholas or Tom Fazio or Pete die I'm so. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.440 Glad that he didn't do that, because the course would 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.360 have turned out really different. It wouldn't have been as natural. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.640 The good characteristics of Bandon Dunes that exist now might 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.280 not have been there because it would have been enormously 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.640 more conventional if one of those designers had gotten a 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.520 hold of this piece of property, I think, and so 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.080 I'm glad that he took a risk on David Kidd. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.440 But in a way hiring David Kidd was less risky 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.800 than hiring Tom Doak would have been, and for this reason, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.560 Mike Kaiser knew that Kidd at this time was a 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.640 young you know, he was in his late twenties when 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.600 he was hired, and he was in his early thirties 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.680 when they were building this course. He was young and inexperienced, 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.720 and Mike Kaiser figured that he could influence him, that 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.560 he would have a lot of control over the design 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.600 process in a way that he wouldn't if he had 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.640 brought in Tom Doak to do the project. So hiring 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.560 David Kid, yes, he was interested in the fact that 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:07.120 David is Scottish. He was interested in bringing a new 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:11.600 designer and making a splash with a kind of unknown architect. 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.360 But he also believed that he could influence the design 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.920 process a bit more if he had a less experienced 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.400 architect on the scene. And indeed what happened was that 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.000 Kaiser was very involved in the design process, and you know, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.040 he's remained involved in the design processes of the other courses, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.280 just not quite as much as he was for this 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.680 first one. And Mike Kaiser also brought in a variety 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.800 of people that he knew well and trusted at the time, 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.840 including the general contractor for this project, Serviscape, which was 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.839 run by a man named Peter Sinott. Peter Sinnott, I'm 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.320 not exactly sure how to pronounce his name, but Serviscape 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.760 is a well established contractor in the golf business. This 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.000 wasn't a kind of David Kids situation where there was 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.880 as an unknown contractor coming in. No, this was a 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.920 company that had done a bunch of golf course projects. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.640 Kaiser also brought in his friends from the golf industry 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.160 and outside the golf industry to advise on the project, 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.160 and a lot of aspects of the course were sort 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.520 of designed by committee. Now is this a David Kid course. Yeah? 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.280 I think ultimately he did design this course, but there 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.640 were a lot of voices involved in the project, and 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.439 often what those voices were doing were pushing for more 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:38.160 conventional elements to be introduced to the golf course. And 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.559 I think that that in part explains why we get 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.840 the course we get where there are some elements of 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:51.360 what came next in golf architecture. There's natural landscapes, the dunes. 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.360 A lot of the dunes were left alone. There's some 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.520 bunkers in the middle of fairways. There's some natural undulations 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.800 in the middle of a lot of the fairway. The 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.160 greens are big, and a lot of them are wild. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.000 A lot of this stuff would become more popular later 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.880 on and was kind of boundary pushing at the time. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.600 But then you also have some parts of bandon dunes 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.120 that would have been more recognizable to somebody who had 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.440 been to a lot of golf resorts in the nineties. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.760 You had some artificial mounding around greens, and on the 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.959 sides of certain fairways, you have returning nines. You know, 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.400 you don't have a lot of the quirk and strangeness 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.560 that characterizes courses like Pacific Dunes and bandoned trails. That's 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.280 just not there. And I think that a lot of 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:43.240 that is because Mike Kaiser designed this kind of team 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:48.760 that was pushing for the course to be popular. 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.439 And I think, obviously if you look back on it, it 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.840 was successful. What they did was uberly successful. This is 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.840 one of the most successful golf courses and golf really 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:02.800 when you think about it, because it led to more 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.720 golf courses being built there and the greatest golf resort 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.920 in America. This was the start of it. You know, 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.200 there's a lot of things that you can nitpick and 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.640 critique about Banded Dunes, and I have my opinion and 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.400 other people have their opinions, and it doesn't make one 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.080 person right or wrong. But at the end of the day, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.040 in terms of a golf course development project, this was 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.400 a grand slam project. Now did it yield a great 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.040 golf course, a truly iconic golf course? I would say no. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.320 You know, I think in terms of you know, some 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.640 of the stuff is kind of dumbed down there, and 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.079 some of this stuff is is it's a huge letdown 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.720 in comparison to a lot of the other experiences that 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.160 you have out at Bandoned Dunes in my opinion. Now, 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.719 everybody has their opinion, as I've said, and they are 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.360 going to feel there are certain ways about the golf course. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.160 But to me, this is the golf course I would skip. 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.679 If I was resented with three days there and I 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.760 couldn't play all the golf courses, this is the one 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.360 that I would skip. This is the one that I 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.480 don't really feel a need to play again. Of all 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.920 of them, I would spend my time playing other places. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.320 And you know, when you dive into why. I think 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.000 that it's got the least complexity in its design, it's 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.640 also got the most flaws, and I think there are 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.480 things that it does very well. It has some standout 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.920 holes that I would put near the top of the 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.880 whole greatest holes at Bandon Dunes. I think the fifth 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.480 is a great example of one of the best holes 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.000 at Bandon Dunes. The seventeenth to me, sticks out as 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.840 one of the best holes at Bandon Dunes. Those are 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.839 two of the best part fours at Bandon Dunes, and 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.120 that is a tough list to be on. But at 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.800 the same time, there are some huge letdowns there. I 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.480 think the start of Banded Dunes is by far the 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.200 weakest start. You know, the first hole is kind of 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.440 a nothing burger. The second hole is not really anything 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.960 that is exciting, and it plays up away, you know, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.840 and kind of one of the big things that you know, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.719 people have heard me talk about these before, but you're 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.880 sitting on sand and there are just catch basins everywhere 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.920 where your ball ends up in. You know, the last 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:18.640 time I was there, the first two holes, I was 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.000 in catch basins and it's just like, this isn't an 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.480 abandoned Dune's experience when you play the other four courses 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.920 that you preponderance of these. The third hole is fine, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.800 it's a fine hole, but by the time you get 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.520 to four, you've played three of the most average holes 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.520 at the resort. That is unlike any other start out there. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.680 In the first three holes, all of those golf courses 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.680 make a huge impression on you. The fourth hole, I'm 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.600 not a fan of. People say it's one of the 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.160 greatest part four us in the world. I think it's 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.840 super awkward off the tee. The containment mounting out down 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.320 the left side that's artificially built is really you know, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.360 when you compare it to the dunes the natural dunes 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.680 to the right just looks very, very fake. And I 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:09.040 think it's just a It's a really boring t shot 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.560 in a way, because you know, you just lay back. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.520 You could push driver, but there's not really a place 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:15.040 to hit it. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.080 You could you could hit it over the dog leg 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.000 on the right. Yeah, if the wind is right. I 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.120 think that's the option that's supposed to be available, But 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.280 I'm not sure that there is a huge reward for 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.240 that risk, because that's a really risky play if you 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.680 push it a little right, you're you're in some tall grass, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.240 and but the fairway is really really wide and generous 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.920 in the place that is safest to play to. So 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.720 I think most people just end up aiming there and 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.520 then taking the approach from there. The approach from there 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:53.320 isn't anything particularly super difficult unless the wind is like 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.120 directly against you or something like that. 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.040 And so in the first four holes, like I think, 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.520 you get out to the ocean and it's a spectacular view. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.200 When you turn the corner on the fore, it's a 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.840 great reveal. I'm not debating that. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.520 And I think I don't think that should be underestimated. 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.760 You know, the impact of that reveal when you turn 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.000 the corner and face the ocean. That's a great moment. 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:16.880 And I think that that has to be to the 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.760 hole's credit to a degree. But I think that the 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.760 impact of that moment is such that people may not 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.280 pay attention, particularly to the strategy of the whole, which 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.160 I agree with you, I don't think it quite works. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.200 The next thing that kind of gets at me, and 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.720 we can get to this, is that this is a 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:40.400 walking only golf course and it is by far the 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:45.080 worst walk at Banded dunes. It has the least connectivity. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.360 I think banded Trails is one that has to traverse 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:53.280 difficult ground. But the walks are very esthetically pleasing and 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.080 interesting in their own way. As we talked about on 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:00.520 the Banded Trails podcast, these walks are very EVI and 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.720 they're very like clear you're usually working walking down like 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.359 a cart path and like a barren landscape. And I 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.320 think like a perfect example of this is the sixth hole, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.520 which is probably my least favorite hole on property. It's 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:21.080 obviously it occupies a absolutely stunning part of the property. 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.359 And this is where as I talked about the the 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:30.120 differences in construction, mentality and style really are are are 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.840 glaring between Bandoned Dunes and the other the other courses 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.359 and its neighbor Pacific Dunes. This is a This is 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.200 a par three right along the coast. It was late, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.840 a late add to the routing, and it makes it 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:47.080 kind of clunky. My complaint with it is like why 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.440 isn't the green just on the ground. Why it's a beautiful, 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.040 beautiful setting and the green's propped up, it's built up, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.840 and everything runs off on all the sides, when you 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:58.959 could have just put the green on the ground on 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.080 the cliff, and it would it just been fine. And 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.239 there's there's beautiful landscape and dunes right around it, and 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.920 there's just no reason for it to be propped up. 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.479 And it looks like when you look at it, it 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.760 looks like a pimple on this beautiful landscape. It's this, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.240 it's the most gorgeous face in the world, and it's 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.440 got this this like ZiT popping out of the land. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.240 And to me, like, I can't unsee it. And I'm sorry, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.199 you know, I'm sure a lot of people love this 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.320 golf hole. But then to make matters worse, you play 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.439 the hole and you walk one hundred and sixty yards 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.880 back after you play it to the seventh teeth. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.880 Well, you essentially walk right back to the fifth green. Yes, 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:41.600 you play it. You play the hole, and then you 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:42.840 then you walk back over it. 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.080 Now, like to me, if the golf course went five 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.240 and then to seven, one of my favorite holes on 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.439 the course, eight, one of my favorite holes on the course, 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.400 that three hole stretch might be the best three hole 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.760 stretch on the golf course. And instead you have this 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.159 part three that's kind of hemmed in there that adds 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.280 to a clunky walk, right, because then the eighth green 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.880 to the ninth T terrible walk. You know, there's the 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.359 third green to the fourth T is not a great walk. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.000 Like there are all these bad walks within the first 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.840 nine holes, and you know, I think the ninth hole 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.840 is pretty average. I think ten to eleven are Ten's 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.320 a great hole. Eleven okay, But it goes through this 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:30.640 stretch of really great holes mixed in with clunkers, and 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.600 a lot of the walks are very poor. So when 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.520 you talk about the whole story of the round and 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.000 the way that the golf course fits together, it's very clunky. 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.080 I want to go back to that five six seven 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.840 sequence that you were talking about. Now. The story behind 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:53.400 the addition of those holes is that originally the band 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.840 in Dune's property was pretty constricted, and the front nine 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.000 had some issues with parallel fairways like back in fourth routing. 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.159 It was just kind of wedged in there, whereas the 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.800 back nine always kind of worked, you know, and the 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.960 back nine today I think is definitely better. But what 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.240 really happened there is that the additional property that they 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.960 were able to purchase essentially midway through the design process, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.240 allowed them to add five six and seven. They didn't 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.639 have those holes before, and it allowed them to push 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.840 the fourth green out to the cliffs. So clearly that 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:37.000 additional property was huge. But where I think the mistake 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.840 happened is that they decided to put that sixth hole in. 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:43.560 They might have gotten a little bit greedy and said, hey, 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.320 we have this extra bit of coastline. We can put 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.159 a par three there and then we can kind of 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.879 come back inland. Where I think what they probably should 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.560 have done when they got that extra property is, yeah, 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.399 push that fourth green out to the cliffs. Design that 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.960 fifth hole, which, as you say is is a beautiful hole. 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.320 I'm not sure the strategy totally works there. This is 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.920 kind of a sidebar. There's not enough room on the 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.840 left in my opinion. There's there's like these center line 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.360 kind of gnarly hazards, and I don't think there's any 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.040 reason to play left there because it's so narrow, and 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.199 that's like the risky option, and I wish there were 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:19.800 just a little more rooms so that you were more 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:21.560 tempted to go out there. As it is, I think 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.960 you play right all day. I'm not sure there's any 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.959 reason not to play right there. But that's again just 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:31.760 a parenthetical. All right, they decided to use that extra 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.080 coastline for six. I think what they should have done 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.560 is just, yeah, have that fifth hole, but then turn 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.480 inland for the seventh hole. Don't get greedy, don't use 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.359 that extra coastline and then have to walk back. We 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:49.000 don't need that hole because behind seven and eight T, 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.920 behind seven green and eight T. If my recollection is right, 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.199 there's some really cool dunesland. 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.120 Back there, dramatic too big, yeah, huge. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.280 And there's no golf holes there. I think you probably 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.639 could have put a fantastic par three back there and 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:09.439 have that sequence be par four, fifth, par four, what 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:13.200 is now the seventh, but then the sixth, par three, 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.400 seventh back in those dunes, make a wonderful little doneesy 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.879 lynxy par three and then play eight back how you 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.800 have it. Nine has issues as a golf hole, but 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:25.560 they don't have anything to do with the way the 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.520 land is used. It has more to do with the 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.480 design and the shaping. I think that would have been 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:31.720 a more effective routing. 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.840 One of the things that Cripple's nine too, is that 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.040 you know it plays back to the most popular area 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.879 of the resort, so you know, there have been things 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.960 that have been added to the ninth hole to corrale balls, 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.680