1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest, 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Alana Weinstein, returns to tell us about all the competitive 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: recruiting and superstar talent she's been working with over the 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: past couple of years. Twenty twenty two was certainly a 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: challenging year for a lot of the hedge fund industry, 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: and it really separates the winners from the also ran. 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: She is uniquely situated to see what goes on in 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: the hedge fund industry in terms of not just performance, 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: but what makes for a great PM versus an also ran. 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: There are a few people in the industry as insightful 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: and influential as she is. I could go on and on, 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: but rather than do that, let me just say my 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: conversation with IDW's Alana Weinstein. 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, Barry, and thank you for that lovely introduction. 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: Well, well, it's good to have you back, and the 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: timing is perfect because there are so many interesting things 18 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: going on in the world of hedge funds. But before 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: we get there, let's delve a little bit into your background, 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: which I find kind of intriguing. You go from Goldman 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: Sachs to Harvard Business School to the Boston Consulting Group. 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: What were your early career plans? What did you want 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: to do with your life? 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: Well, when I was at Penn, I had this thought 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: that I wanted to be Barbara Walters. 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 2: That was kind of where my head was. So I 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: loved how she was a trailblazer. She had fascinating interviews 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: with people. She got people to the table that no 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: one else could. She didn't take no for an answer, 31 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: and I just thought that was like, that was a 32 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: very cool, unique set of skills that she embodied and 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: was able to capitalize upon. And I didn't know. I mean, 34 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: I was studying nineteen century literature. My senior thesis was 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: on Darwinism and Thomas Hardy. None of this sell and 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: none of this lended itself to Goldman Sachs. I ended 37 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: up at Goldman really because I didn't want to go 38 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: to law school, because that's kind of what you do 39 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: with an English and Psyche major. 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: Sure, right, so. 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: I was. I also parachuted into Goldman in the middle 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: of my senior year because I made the mistake of 43 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: telling the guys interviewing me that I could start right away. 44 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: I'd done. I'd just gotten kind of blown through my 45 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: classes quickly. I was a little bit of a nerd 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: in college. 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: Barry, did you go the full four years or were 48 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: you doing double duty at Goldman? 49 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: I was doing double duty my senior year. Well, I 50 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: finished my classes really end of my junior year and 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: I started at Goldman. I took some fun classes beginning 52 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: of my senior year, and then I started at Goldman 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: middle of my senior year. But what that enabled me 54 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: to do, because I was on an off cycle, was 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: go to HS early and I was really young. At 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: business school, I was and this is the time period 57 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: where they wanted you to have minimum five years of 58 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: work experience. So I was very conscious of not coming 59 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: with a lot of experience, and PCG was really a 60 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: way to play catch up. It was like getting my 61 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: post MBA MBA. Not so much that I wanted to 62 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: be a consultant, but I wanted to learn about different 63 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: industries and different types of problems. 64 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: So what led you to the talent side of finance? 65 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: Well, at Goldman, you know what I realized is I 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: didn't really love finance. I could do the work. I 67 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: did the work well enough to get into a good 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: business school. But what really excited me was dealing with 69 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: and this is Goldman back in the nineties when it 70 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: was a private partnership and attracted the most exceptional some 71 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: of the most exceptional and smartest people in the world, 72 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:01,279 Speaker 2: and dealing with them and working alongside them was super energizing. 73 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: You know. At BCG and even back to high school 74 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: at Stuyvesant was everyone was smart, you know, And I 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: wanted to be in a milieure where I was really 76 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: feeding off of and learning from just a super smart 77 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: group of people. And I felt the way that I 78 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: could best contribute was kind of a mix of my 79 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: experience at BCG and Goldman. BCG being really delving into 80 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: what makes industries and companies go the strategy and Goldman 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: very transaction driven and helping people to get from one 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: side to the next, not just giving them advice. And 83 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: that was the way I felt I could contribute. 84 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: I know, I have a natural ability to scout out 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: some of the best and brightest alpha generators in finance. 86 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: How does that happen? 87 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: I was at BCG and this is when the dot 88 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: com bubble was getting bigger and bigger. In my second 89 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: year and my entire class had left to go start 90 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: a tech company of some sort in California, and I 91 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: didn't really that wasn't my think. I wasn't turned on 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: by that. That's not I wasn't passionate about that, and 93 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: so I was still trying to figure out what my 94 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: next step was. Don't forget I was really young still, 95 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: I was in my mid twenties, and so I ended 96 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: up joining a large search firm because I just I 97 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: felt i'd learn more about the different types of issues 98 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: that were out there and how they get solved through 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: human capital, and that might give me some insight functionally 100 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: into what I wanted to do next. And I found 101 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: once I joined them that I was actually just really 102 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: good at what they were doing. And at the same time, 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: the dot com bubble collapsed, their mainstay financial services practice, 104 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: which was banking and equities, fell off a cliff, and 105 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: what was per collating were all the prop groups. And 106 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: I started doing work for some of these groups, and 107 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: kind of like the hedge fund industry, there were only 108 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: so many that were that good and really controlled, and 109 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: we're the you know, and we're the best and really 110 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: controlled that ecosystem, and they're very Clubby, and they ended 111 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: up recommending My business just grew exponentially from there. They 112 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: just they would recommend me one to the other and 113 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: these were these were first of their kind types of 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: products that these prop groups were focused on very complex 115 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: financial instruments. So we were all learning as we went 116 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: and just by virtue of doing really one search, it 117 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: made me the expert because no one else was doing it, 118 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: and so I built my business from there. 119 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: So you launched your own firm IDW in two thousand 120 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: and three, by the way, congratulations, that's twenty years ago. 121 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: So you're celebrating a big anniversary this year. What led 122 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: you to decide? I know, I'm going to go out 123 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: on my own. 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: It is a big anniversary, and it's not one I 125 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: take lightly. Given the average hedge fund lives three years. 126 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're aware of that. 127 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: Ban very short life span, huge turnover, and it's more 128 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: than just the high water mark. There are a lot 129 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: of factors that drive that constant churn. 130 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: Exactly. I went out on my own because I really 131 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: just wanted to focus on doing the kind of work 132 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: that was interesting to me. I had built this business 133 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: within this larger firm primarily working with these high octane 134 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: prop groups, and I felt like I could just take 135 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: that with me. You know, these were they didn't really care. 136 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: They were entrepreneurs themselves. They didn't care about being part 137 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: of a big firm with hundreds of people in many offices. 138 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: They cared about domain expertise. And that's what I brought 139 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: to the table. 140 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: So you mentioned what a notoriously short lifespan so many 141 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: hedge funds have. It's also a hyper comp headtive field. 142 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: So staying power is something that really is of value. 143 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: You've been in business running your own chop for two decades. 144 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: What's the secret to longevity in a space that is 145 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: known for not having longevity. 146 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: Let me define what we do, because I feel like 147 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: a fair misconception might be that is a recruiting firm. 148 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: Our job is to help people find jobs. That's actually 149 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: not what we do. We work with the most front 150 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: footed hedge fund founders and talent in the industry to 151 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: figure out what's next and keep them in the pole position. 152 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: And when you think about the individuals that can meet 153 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: that challenge for the highest impact hedge funds in the world, 154 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: these are the best people out there. These are not 155 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 2: people who are typically looking, and so in order to 156 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 2: engage with them, it's not about helping them find a job. 157 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: It's really giving them information and perspective they don't already have. 158 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: So I expect my firm to be ahead on trends, 159 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: themes and have a point of view that these guys 160 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't get if they didn't meet with us. And I 161 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: don't care if they ever transact, you know, I think 162 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: that in time, if we make a strong enough case, 163 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: they're smart and they'll transact and do something different if 164 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: it makes sense. But with every meeting we learn more 165 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: and more more powerful for the next person. I'll give 166 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: you an example. We met with someone recently who sits 167 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: at a fund that is having a tough time. They 168 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: lost four billion dollars last year, so big high watermark. 169 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: They're down again this year, and he was he was 170 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: quite happy with how he was treated by the founder. 171 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: He said, Ilana, you know, I've been there a while. 172 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: I actually think the founder was really fair with me. 173 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: I didn't lose myne he guaranteed me a million bucks 174 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: for this year and a million bucks for next year. 175 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: It's really helpful to have had five other meetings with 176 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 2: people who sit at analogous funds that had losses that 177 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: were just as big, and in fact they may have 178 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: contributed to those losses more and be able to tell him. 179 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: First off, your fund, just by my math, has a 180 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty million dollar management fee, so I'm 181 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: not sure that that's so generous on behalf of the founder. 182 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: And number two, it may interest you to know here 183 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: are four or five different funds in the same situation, 184 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 2: and what the founders did there was to guarantee their 185 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 2: people who were more responsible for the losses than you 186 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: four or five x you know what you've been given. 187 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: So that's where things start to unsettle a bit in 188 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: his head. And then we come up a level and 189 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: talk about whether he's even learning the skills that will 190 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: put him on his front feet to compete as things 191 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: evolve in this industry. And I would say it's the 192 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: amalgamation barrier of twenty years of intelligence of speaking to 193 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 2: the best people out there that no one can compete with. 194 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: So I want to focus on that because you you 195 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: raise some really fascinating points there when you mentioned business intelligence, 196 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: and really it's an astute use of the data that 197 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: you become familiar with that isn't it's not on the 198 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal, it's not listed publicly. This is all very 199 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: closely held information. You may be in a unique situation 200 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: to see the landscape that very few people see. How 201 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: big of an advantage is that. 202 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: It's going it's everything real, So think about it. You're happy, 203 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: You're doing phenomenally well, or you at least you think 204 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 2: you're happy. You know, by the time we're done with you, 205 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: you may not be that happy. You but you are 206 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: doing well by anyone's metric. These are big numbers. There 207 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: are people were talking to where compensation was closer to 208 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: nine figures than eight figures. So it's really not about 209 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: being disenfranchised or miserable or needing to find a job. 210 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: They don't need to transact. Okay, this isn't like you 211 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: know you're sitting on the cell side and yes, you know, 212 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: you're on the equity sales desk and someone doesn't need 213 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: to transact with Goldman on the other side of the phone, 214 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: but they do need to transact with someone. These people 215 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: do not need to transact. The only reason they're coming 216 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: in to meet with us is because they're going to 217 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: learn something and there's going to be some perspective that 218 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: they're going to walk out with, like the example I 219 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: just gave you, that they didn't have before. And that 220 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: is a very different dynamic than what I think most 221 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: recruiting firms do or even really able to do. 222 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: So I kind of know of your work being hand 223 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: in glove with a lot of the largest hedge fund founders. 224 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: This isn't hey, I need to fill a seat. It's 225 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: let's create a discussion about a strategy that we either 226 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: want employee or are thinking about employing, and how do 227 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: we go up about putting this into play staffing. It 228 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about some of the work 229 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: you do. That's more than just hey, I found the 230 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: right fund manager for em distressed debt. 231 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: It's much more sophisticated, much more it's we think of it, Barry, 232 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: as we're moving a battleship forward. That's not that easy, 233 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 2: you know. I think you sent me this article actually 234 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: because I was on I was pulling up your name 235 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: on my text messages and it came up. There are 236 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: more hedge funds than Burger kings. 237 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right nationally, Yep. 238 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: These aren't like the little Burger Kings sitting sitting out 239 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: in the middle of you know nowhere these think of 240 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: these guys that we work with as I don't know 241 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: the biggest franchise owners of you know, those fast food 242 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: chains in the space. 243 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: Well, the Wall Street Journal column that I read about 244 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: you from it was pre Pandemic twenty nineteen something like that. 245 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: You're talking to Steve Cohen a point seventy two and 246 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: Ken Griffin of Citadel and all of these other giant 247 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: hedge funds. I know you don't disclose your clients, but 248 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal certainly mentioned those. I would imagine 249 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: that the founders of those firms have a pretty solid 250 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: grasp on where they want to go and what they 251 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: want to do. How do you get involved with them 252 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: in terms of strategy and how receptive are they to 253 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: your insight? 254 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes, like I said, in terms of moving a battleship forward, 255 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: it's just making sure that they have the best investment 256 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: professionals for their existing strategies. Again, no mean feat, because 257 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: the bar is exceptionally high, and there are so many 258 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: things we look for and so few people that can 259 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: meet that challenge, as I said, and sometimes they come 260 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: to us with the thought of you know what, there's 261 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: an adjacent strategy we think makes sense. Let's think about 262 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: the best way to do that. Do we buy a fund, 263 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: do we identify someone who we think we can raise 264 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: capital around and we help them with that calculus. Sometimes 265 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm coming to them and saying, this is something I 266 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: think you guys should look at. I just had this 267 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: with a client who runs a very large, not multi manager, 268 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: but multi strategy fund, and he and I have been 269 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: talking about how to get his fund, which is already 270 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: very big I mean very big, to the next level. 271 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: And we've talked about things like and it's open ended. 272 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: He told me his calculus he's going through, which is 273 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: how do I get from where I am to as 274 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: make sense you know, much bigger than that. And we've 275 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: talked about whether we go deeper on existing strategies, we 276 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: build new businesses, we find somebody who helps can help 277 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: him more as almost a cocio with risk management, with 278 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: the investment process. I've had a lot of conversations with 279 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: him where I've said, we need to take a step 280 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: back and think about what you really need because those 281 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: are different skill sets and they reside in different people. 282 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: But I've also come to him with ideas, what about activism, 283 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: what about you know, fill in the blank things that 284 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: he doesn't do today but may make sense and be 285 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: a ja And he's exploring all of those things. 286 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: So you're you're having these sorts of conversations with large 287 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,479 Speaker 1: hedge fund founders and other experienced people in the industry. 288 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: I got to imagine that every now and then surprises 289 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: come along. What sort of things do you interact with 290 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: where you know you're rock back? Gee, I didn't see 291 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: that coming. I bet you have a ton of great stories. 292 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: I do, Barry, but I kind of feel like, you know, 293 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: can you talk for the book I which there will 294 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 2: be one day, maybe I'll have to be when I 295 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: retire and you know, publish under anonymous. 296 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: But people will figure out they probably will. 297 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: But anyway, we'll cross that bridge when and if we 298 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: come to it. Dealing with people, there's constantly surprises. That's 299 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: what keeps me largely on my toes. There's so many 300 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: twists and turns. You think you can prep someone within 301 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: an inch of their life, and there's every reason they 302 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: should resign and go to where we've been working toward 303 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: for the last six months, them going and they end 304 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: up staying, and then there are people who just get 305 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: out like this where I think it's going to be 306 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: a fight to the death to keep them so. But 307 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: you know, one of the in building my business one 308 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: of the most surprising things for me, and this has 309 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: nothing to do with my clients. It's just kind of 310 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: a funny thing to tell you. For a firm that 311 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 2: is a really unique niche in the hedge fund industry, right, 312 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: we recruit for the hedge fund industry, and we do 313 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: it at a level that I think you know is unusual. 314 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 2: It is so difficult to recruit for ourselves. It is 315 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 2: just it's so hard because part of the sort of 316 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: secret sauce that we were getting out earlier in terms 317 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 2: of what makes us different. For us, we need someone 318 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: who is strategic, transaction driven, really into the micro you mentioned, 319 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: like all the details and information that we amalgamate, but 320 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: then can come up a level and figure out how 321 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: to commercialize that. 322 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: Where do you find people like that? 323 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: It's so hard. We typically hire people out of the 324 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: banks with I love just a couple of years of 325 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: experience so we can mold them into and teach them more. 326 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Experience doesn't necessarily help. There's so much that they are 327 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: only going to learn just through the exposure and the 328 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: information that they gather in being in the seat. But 329 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: it's hard, It's really hard. 330 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: So you mentioned a lot of the surprises, no shock, 331 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: it comes from the human element of it. What are 332 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: some of the things that really arched your eyebrows, what 333 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: really gave you pause? 334 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: There are so many good stories, Barry, but one that 335 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: I'll tell, which hopefully no one will be to put 336 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: off by if the protagonists self identify was early on. 337 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: It was year one or so of IDW and we 338 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 2: were working with a client who even back then was 339 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 2: a well known guy in the industry, amazing hedge fund founder, 340 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: very focused on growth excellence, and we did our first 341 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: search for him, which was for Ahead of Credit. I 342 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: really wanted to impress him, and we got a guy 343 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: to the table after a lot of trial and error, who, 344 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: as I said earlier, wasn't looking very and he was 345 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: like one of the biggest credit prop traders on the street, 346 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: phenomenal reputation. I can't remember if he sat at Bear 347 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 2: or Lehman, but it was one of the banks that 348 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: no longer exist and not his fault. But anyway, back then, 349 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: huge deal, no interest in coming to the table, but 350 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 2: I explained all the reasons why he should, and optionality 351 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: is a great thing. This is a phenomenal guy. And 352 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: then I'm thrilled get the meeting set up. Let's just 353 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: say it was, you know it was. It was after 354 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: the close. It was like four or five o'clock, and 355 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: I'm kind of like glancing at my phone waiting for 356 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: it to ring and to hear what a great meeting 357 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: this was, because this I was like everything. It was 358 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: everything I thought we wanted for this search. And the 359 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 2: phone rings an hour in and it's my client and 360 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: he says that can never happen again. 361 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: Oh really, uh huh? 362 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: And by and by that, you could never in a 363 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: million years, I could never guess what the next string 364 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: of sentences was going to be that came out of 365 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,239 Speaker 2: his mouth, which were apparently this guy had decided it 366 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: was okay to put on a T shirt and shorts, 367 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 2: a pair of roller blades and skate something like thirty 368 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: blocks top speed. Arrives at the Four Seasons, skates right 369 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: in through the entrance, right up the stairs, and slides 370 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: right in for his meeting, completely dripping with sweat wheels 371 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: still turning. Luckily that my client had a sense of humor, 372 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: and we've gone on to do a lot of great 373 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: stuff together. But it was a lesson for me, Barry 374 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: that you cannot confuse intelligence with common sense. 375 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: So now, how much of that is common sense? And 376 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: how much of that is This guy really didn't want 377 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: another job, he really wasn't looking to switch. 378 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: I think it's common sense. I don't care if you 379 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: are looking to move or not. 380 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: Come on, I mean within the industry. 381 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: Within this was one of a kind. I've got a 382 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: lot of one of the kind stories. But you know, 383 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 2: the important thing is to learn from it. And now 384 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 2: now we prep people within an inch of their lives 385 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: on everything. 386 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: No rollerblading, No rollerblading. I really love the Wall Street 387 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: Journal article about you that began quote in the overwhelmingly 388 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: male world of hedge funds, a lot of Weinstein is 389 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful women. But Ms Weinstein doesn't 390 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: manage money. Instead, she scouts the people who do. So. 391 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: So let's talk about that first half of that sentence, 392 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly male world of hedge funds. What's it like competing 393 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: in that space? 394 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: Well, let me just say, we can't forget this is 395 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: still a young industry. Okay. It though when you compare 396 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: it to law to medicine, right, okay, so though you know, medicine, law, consulting, 397 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: those industries have now over fifty percent women. Okay. Business 398 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: school when I went, was twenty something percent. Now HBS, 399 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 2: I think is fifty two or fifty three percent. Banking 400 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: getting much better. See at the senior ranks, there's still 401 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 2: some work to do. 402 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: Finance in general getting. 403 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 2: Much much better. Certainly at the more junior and mid 404 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: and upper mid ranks it's roughly fifty percent women. So 405 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: relatively speaking, this is still a young industry. I will 406 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: tell you when I have these questions which I feel 407 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: are like a little bit loaded, all male, what's that like? 408 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 2: Blah blah blah, I have felt this is the most 409 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: meritocratic industry that I have ever been a part of. 410 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: And I've been working since I was fourteen. I've had 411 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 2: a lot of jobs. When I was a pen I 412 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: worked at a law from Ones, as you pointed out, 413 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 2: I worked at Goldman, I worked in consulting. I work 414 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: with CEOs from all sorts of different industries. The difference 415 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: here is it is pay for performance, it's mark to 416 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: market you know exactly where you stand with complete clarity 417 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 2: every moment of the day, and teams are small, so 418 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: the react. Even if it's a multi manager which has 419 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, one hundred pms when you pull back the curtain, 420 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: the teams of those pms are small, right, and you 421 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: certainly know how your pms are doing, which ones are 422 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 2: the winners and which ones aren't performing that well. So 423 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: founders are very clear on who the alpha generators are 424 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 2: as opposed to for example, private equity where it can 425 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: take seven to ten years to monetize your investment, or 426 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 2: you know, an industry where there's just not that much 427 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 2: that much clear attribution as to who's doing what on 428 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: a very big deal team. So as a result of that, 429 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: founders don't care if it's a man or woman or 430 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: otherwise in terms of who occupies the seat. It's all 431 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 2: about generating alpha and when it comes to me in 432 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: my by the way, all female team, we'd love some diversity. 433 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: Oh really, that's interesting, I have no idea we'd love 434 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: some diversity. 435 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 2: It is all about our ability to be a source 436 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: of alpha generating talent for them. 437 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: So there is there a female perspective in the hedge 438 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: fund world, because in the academic research on investment returns, 439 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of studies that say, hey, men are 440 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: too risk embracing, they're too stubborn, they're over optimistic, and 441 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: all other things being equal. When they looked at a 442 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: series of female led funds versus male ed funds, the 443 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: women outperform the men. 444 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: So let me give you a little example. Back in 445 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, or maybe it was ten, if 446 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: you remember, hedge funds were largely short Lululemon. And I 447 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: met with a guy who told me that his then 448 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 2: girlfriend now wife, who to your point, is now very 449 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: successful in her own right. Said to him, why are 450 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: you short this stuff? And he said, well, because you 451 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 2: know it's for yoga, and yoga's a fat And she said, 452 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: what are you talking about. We wear this myself and 453 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: my girlfriends wear this all the time for everything. And 454 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 2: by the way, honey, yoga's not a fat. All right, 455 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: So back to your question, The reality is what founders 456 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: want is as much diversity of thought as possible because 457 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: there will be fewer errors in reasoning if you have 458 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: different perspectives and more thinking outside the box. 459 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: Less group think. Yes, it can only be good totally 460 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: and yet it doesn't seem that. Well. 461 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: Again, I think it's going to take time. It just will. 462 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: This is not an industry which doesn't want women. Quite 463 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 2: the contrary. I mean, I have been asked almost since 464 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: day one, and again I've been doing this. Love diversity, 465 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: We love, but at the end of the day, they 466 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: have a fiduciary duty to their LPs to hire the 467 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: best person. And if few women are coming into the 468 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 2: industry by the time we get involved, which is at 469 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: a pretty impactful level, we don't really have anyone to 470 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: pull from. So I hope over time and I think 471 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: it's improving. There are signs that it is. More women 472 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: enter the industry, they get trained to great places, and 473 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 2: they end up being great candidates for us to put 474 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: into to run, you know, the next big portfolio or start. 475 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: A new strategy. So in the Wall Street Journal article, 476 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: it tells of a story of you speaking at Wharton 477 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: to a group of people, a group of students. Someone 478 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: asked you why aren't there more women in hedge funds? 479 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: And I don't want to steal the thunder, but tell 480 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: the story what you asked the class and what happened. 481 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: Well, a woman asked me at the end of the class. 482 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 2: What are actually it was more aggressive than that barrier. 483 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 2: We did this whole, a whole guest lecture, and she, 484 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: of course was my last person that I called on, 485 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: and she said, what are you doing to help women 486 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: have a greater footprint in the hedge fund industry? And 487 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: I was kind of like, oh god, you know, I immediately 488 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 2: got a little bit defensive. But then I took a 489 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: breath and I stepped back and I looked at the 490 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: class and it was roughly fifty to fifty men women, 491 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: And I said, let me start with the guys, how 492 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: many of you are interested in working at a hedge fund? 493 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: And I would say the majority of hands went up. 494 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: I would bet more than fifty one percent eighty. 495 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 2: It was almost all of them. I can't write it 496 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: was the majority. It was a sea of hands. And 497 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 2: then I asked the women the same question, and like 498 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: two hands went up. Really And I turned to her 499 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: and I said, that's your answer. 500 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: Right, Go work on your peers. There's only so much 501 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: I can. 502 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: And there is also something too, you know, as much 503 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: as there has to be a respectful number one, there 504 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: has to be a respectful environment for everybody. Sure, men 505 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 2: women or otherwise. I don't think we need to be 506 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 2: treated like hothouse flowers. Right, So this business of like, 507 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: I mean, this is a tough industry. It's really competitive. 508 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: It's bottom line oriented. But it's about results, you know, 509 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: and and people can be kurt, they can speak in bullets. 510 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: It's just there's but we all know women on trading 511 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: desks that they're still snap you in half if you 512 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: get say the wrong thing to them. They're tough, they 513 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: toughing up that experience. To assume that a woman fund 514 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: manager or a trader is a delicate flower, I mean, 515 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: that's a very nineteenth century perspective that I can't imagine 516 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: that still exists anymore. 517 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 2: I don't know when people say what managers are doing 518 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 2: to make the environment more hospitable, what that what that means? 519 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 2: I don't know what that means. It is completely hospitable. 520 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: It is about people who do great analysis and can 521 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: put up great results. Everything else, you know, it's it's 522 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: the same metric and same bar for every for everyone. 523 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: It's not it's not different. 524 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: So what are the broader takeaways for any woman who 525 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: interested in working in the hedge fund field? 526 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: Well, let me take it out of hedge funds. I 527 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: think it's just let's just make it more more general. 528 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 2: I mean, well for hedge funds, it's the same thing 529 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: for a man as for a woman. It's it's you know, 530 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: it's getting good training, it's really being in it for 531 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: the right reasons. It's all the things we talked about earlier, 532 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: and honing your craft and improving and being front footed, 533 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: and your approach to learning and growth and pushing yourself 534 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: and reflecting on if you're not growing wide. This is 535 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: not like a specially Again to my point, there's not 536 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: a special set of things for women versus men. As 537 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: a female entrepreneur, and I you know, there are things 538 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: as a woman you do need to grapple with. And 539 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: I would say it's probably true of anyone who has 540 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: competing priorities in their life, whether it's a it's a 541 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: male or a female primary you know, caregiver for a 542 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: child or for an elderly parent, or whatever the case 543 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: may be. But I can only speak from my own perspective. 544 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,719 Speaker 2: What I tell people is what I how women is, 545 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: you can't you can do everything, just not all at 546 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 2: the same time. Now that being said, I started my 547 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: firm bought and renovated my first apartment and got pregnant 548 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: all within the same year. But the difference was I 549 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: had domain expertise and a reputation, and I figured it out. 550 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: I think it's very difficult to break into a new 551 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: industry where there's a steep learning curve and be dealing 552 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: with other priorities at the same time, so you have 553 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: to time things in a way that makes sense. I 554 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: also think you should never apologize or feel guilty. Guilt 555 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: is a waste of time. For being a working mom. 556 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 2: I was not there for every drop off and pick up, 557 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: far from but I was there for my son where 558 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: it mattered, and I think it's important that as a 559 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: parent you fold your kid into your successes and your failures. 560 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: I talked to him throughout his growing up about the 561 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: challenges that I was facing, you know, the winds as 562 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: well as the misses. 563 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: The challenges you face as a woman in a male 564 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: dominated inst No again I fell or just a hyper 565 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: competitive just the challenges of building a business, you know. 566 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: You know. 567 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: Coming back to that, I think that we have been 568 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: able to provide a complementary perspective to a lot of 569 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: our clients. It's an advantage being a woman. There are 570 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: things we see that others don't and so, but just 571 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: finishing on this point, I think that your kid, you know, 572 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: your kids will really grow and learn as a result 573 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: of being exposed to everything that you do. 574 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: So, given twenty years at IDW and an all female team, 575 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: what are some of the unique perspectives that you bring 576 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: as a woman to a male dominated space. 577 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: Well, I do think being a woman will mean that 578 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: we might come at things differently and have a slightly 579 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: different perspective, which can be complementary right to somebody who 580 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: comes at things from their own lived experience, which looks different. 581 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 2: I'll give you a story early on which I think 582 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: speaks to that. This was maybe year one of IDW. 583 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: We were still doing a lot of work for the 584 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: prop desks, again the precursors to the hedge funds, and 585 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: we were working with one of the most aggressive cell 586 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: side firms on the street, certainly with respect to its 587 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: prop businesses, and they wanted to build their structured credit business, 588 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: and we went through a whole thing and we ended 589 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: up making an offer to a guy who ran one 590 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 2: of the biggest structured credit groups at a competing bank. 591 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 2: It was a great offer. It was a three year deal, 592 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: huge runway, great upside, and he could really build it 593 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: and take it in whatever direction he wanted. And he 594 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: was kind of fenced in where he was today, so 595 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: much more open pathway. And we went through the whole 596 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,719 Speaker 2: resignation conversation. We prepped people within an inch of their 597 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: lives before they walk in and they resign. And I 598 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: told him to expect that this was going to be 599 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: his fifteen minutes of fame. He was going to go 600 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: in and they were going to put more and more 601 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: senior people at the bank in front of him and 602 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: make him feel like if he were to leave, the 603 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: bank would Koreen off a cliff, which we both know 604 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: you know is not the case. They were fine, with 605 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: all due respect. I said to him, they were fine 606 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: before you showed up, and they'll be fine after. You're great, 607 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: but it's going to be fine, And he sounded good, 608 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: he sounded solid. He knew to resign to his boss 609 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: and basically get out of there and shut down other conversations. 610 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: So I tell my client, and everyone at this bank 611 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: was involved, from the CEO on down. This was a 612 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: very important person to them, and they wanted to make 613 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: sure it got done, and I tell them I feel 614 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: really good. He sounds great, We're going to get this done. 615 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: Goes in the next day, knows to call me an 616 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: hour into resignation, which he does. He tells me Elana, 617 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: it's going well, but you know, they want me to 618 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: meet the head of Global Markets to explain my thinking. 619 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 2: I said, we talked about you don't need to do 620 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: this or we're not. No, no, no, I don't want 621 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 2: to make my boss look bad. At least I need 622 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 2: to explain it's not his fault. I owe them that much. 623 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: I've been here for this long. Blah blah blah. There's 624 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: nothing I can say. He's going to do it. I 625 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: reinforce the reasons this has to end. After this conversation anyway, 626 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: you can imagine where this ends up going. He's in 627 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 2: a conference room. That additional conversation manifests into ten additional conversations. 628 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: They're now trotting out the entire management committee of the 629 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: bank in front of him. The head of the bank's 630 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: getting involved. It's his phone is now off. My team 631 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: is calling onto the desk. We're trying to get through 632 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: to him any which way we can. It is impossible. Meanwhile, 633 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: my client on the other side is going bonkers because 634 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 2: we're now late into the afternoon. We can't reach him, 635 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 2: and they're second guessing their decision. Do we have the 636 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: right guy? Doesn't he know what he wants? Is this 637 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 2: a leader? Blah blah blah. Doesn't he under stand you 638 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: know this, This couldn't be clearer the reasons he should 639 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: make this decision if he's not out of their sunni Ilana, 640 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: we're pulling the offer. 641 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: Which by the way, is really not fair for a 642 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: guy who's just trying to extract himself totally gracefully. 643 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: Right, And I explained that, but this this, like we 644 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: started this process whatever it was seven am. We're now 645 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: almost into the evening, so we're beyond gracefully. He's clearly 646 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 2: getting bid back, and they're upset, they're embarrassed, they feel 647 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: maybe they have egg on their face, and you know, 648 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: there's a lot of positioning. 649 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 1: And joby good. 650 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, I think about it, and I really feel 651 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: like that movie No Way Out with Kevin Costner. You know, 652 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: I just don't even know what to do anymore, can't 653 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: get through to him. And then I remember he always 654 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: talked about his wife and she clearly as she should be, 655 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: but it was lovely. The way he always brought her 656 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 2: up was a big influence in his life and in 657 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 2: his decision making. And I realize I have his home number. 658 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: Get the wife on the phone. 659 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 2: So I don't remember. I don't remember any of their 660 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 2: names even, but I remember she was French and she 661 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: picks up the phone. So let's call her Monique and 662 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 2: I say hello, Hello. I don't know if you know 663 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 2: who I am, Monique. I'm Ilana Weinstein. And before I 664 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 2: can even finish, she says, I know exactly who you are. 665 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 2: And I say, well, you know, we have a bit 666 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: of a situation. And I explained to her that the 667 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: place her husband is resigning to go to is very upset, 668 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,959 Speaker 2: and I recount all the reasons this is a phenomenal opportunity, 669 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 2: and I think they're going to pull the offer, and 670 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 2: I just you know, I can't get through to him, 671 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: and I thought you should be aware of that, given 672 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,959 Speaker 2: you know, this is a decision I know you both 673 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: came to and she says, Elana, I understand, leave this 674 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: with me. Five minutes later, bury my phone rings and 675 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 2: he's out. Wow, So you know, I. 676 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: What did the firm he was going to have to 677 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: say about. 678 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 2: Oh they were thrilled, Are you kidding? But my point 679 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: is sometimes it does take you know, it does take 680 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: I guess injest it could it takes a strong woman 681 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 2: to sort of, you know, in this case, move the needle, 682 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 2: or maybe two strong women. And I'm not to say 683 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: a man. It's not to say a man wouldn't have 684 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: come up with this, but I do think there's something 685 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 2: sometimes to coming at it from a female perspective, which 686 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 2: is helpful. 687 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: Huh, to say the very least. I bet you have 688 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: tons of other stories to tell us one. 689 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 2: This is a more personal story, but I think just 690 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: speaks to some of the obvious challenges of being a woman. 691 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 2: And this was simply early days of IDW. As I 692 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: said earlier, I did a lot of things within that 693 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: first year, including getting pregnant, and we were invited to 694 00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: pitch for the business of what was one of the 695 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 2: most exciting hedge funds at the time. It was a 696 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: spin out from so this would have been two thousand 697 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 2: and four spin out from a well known prop group. 698 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: To my point on doing work for a lot of 699 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: the prop groups, they had a lot of capital, and 700 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 2: they were on fire and they were building, and the 701 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: founder invited me to come in. So here I am Barry. 702 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 2: I'm eight months pregnant, and I'm looking at myself in 703 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: the mirror thinking I wouldn't give myself this work. I mean, 704 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: I look like I'm about to pop. And that's not 705 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 2: a negative. It's just like again, competing priorities. Right, So 706 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: this is he has a business to build and I 707 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 2: have a small firm. So how is this going to work? 708 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: So I do what any good entrepreneurial eight month pregnant 709 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 2: person would do, which is swath myself in loose black clothing. 710 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 2: I absolutely still look pregnant. I mean, just to contextualize this, 711 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a smaller person. 712 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: I'min five foot something. Yeah, right, you look like you 713 00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: must have looked like. 714 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 2: The like Well, it was better for me in that 715 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: the weight was relatively evenly distributed. So I could I 716 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 2: gained seventy pounds when I was pregnant. 717 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: I could look like doubled double thank you. 718 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, I could look like a very heavy snake 719 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 2: that swallowed a small goat. So that was the that 720 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: was what I was going for in this meeting. And 721 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: because I obviously he'd know I was pregnant. But if 722 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: I was like looking three months pregnant or four months, 723 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 2: that's a different story. Come in. We have a great meeting. 724 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 2: By the way, thank god for big conference room tables, 725 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: because I slid myself. I kind of leaned back in 726 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 2: the chair and slid under, so he couldn't really focus on, 727 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 2: you know, the fact that I really, you know, looked 728 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 2: like I was about to pop. 729 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: Then your water breaks. 730 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 2: No, No, not that almost that good though, almost that good. 731 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: Great meeting. He awards us everything, Ilana, like we're seeing 732 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: eye to eye. You understand the business. There's all the 733 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 2: stuff we need to build. Let's get to it. And 734 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: I think to myself, Okay, we can do this. We 735 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 2: have a month and IGW works smart and hard and fast. 736 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 2: A month for us as like five months for other people, 737 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 2: will be will be great. By the time I give birth, 738 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: we signed the engagement letter, I'm in the hospital with 739 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 2: an emergency C section. Within days, he is off to 740 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 2: the races, like with the minute the letter signed. He 741 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 2: wants to know who do we have ready for him 742 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 2: to meet? And I'm not I'm not returning the call 743 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 2: right because for obvious reasons. So two days later, I 744 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: call him. He's very gruff on the phone and I said, listen, 745 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 2: I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'm 746 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 2: uber responsive, but I think I have a good excuse. 747 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 2: I said, well, I'm calling you from the delivery room. 748 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 2: Delivery for what? And I said, I just had a baby, 749 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 2: and there is you could hear a pin drop on 750 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 2: this call silence, I mean, and this isn't a guy 751 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 2: who gets silenced easily. And I laughed and I said, listen, 752 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 2: this should give you comfort the fact that I'm calling 753 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 2: you from the delivery room. You know, we're going to 754 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 2: get this done for you. Okay, come hell or high water. 755 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 2: So he laughed, and on we went. But it's amazing, Yeah, 756 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we have our own special, unique 757 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 2: set of challenges, and that's an example of one. 758 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: Huh, really really interesting. So before we get to our 759 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: favorite questions, I just wanted to ask you a couple 760 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: of things about just the state of the industry today 761 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: and some of the changes we're going through. We're seeing 762 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: the older generation begin to retire. You have Ray Dalio 763 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: stepping down at Bridgewater. You have a lot of managers 764 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: who are now in their late sixties, early seventies or beyond. 765 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: Are we approaching a generational change over here? 766 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: We are? It's early though, right, we haven't seen that much. 767 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 2: Baton passing Bridgewater is one. Davidson Kemp would be another. 768 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 2: On a smaller scale, Redwood sculptor. That one hasn't gone 769 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 2: too well, right, There's been horrible, very a few. 770 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: Of them that have kind of unraveled. 771 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 2: So it's early yet. But the key thing is that 772 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 2: the LPs do not see the secret sauce as residing 773 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 2: in the head of one person. I think, for example, 774 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 2: multi managers are set up well for this transition because 775 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 2: by its very nature, you have multiple managers managing the capital, 776 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: it's not the founder or you have to create a 777 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 2: real partnership or investment committee in order to have the 778 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: decision making be more a result of everyone versus one person. 779 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 2: Elliott just created an investment committee in twenty twenty one, 780 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 2: I think, precisely to get things ready for succession planning. 781 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: So I don't want to suggest the top death style 782 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: of firms are immune to this sort of success issues, 783 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: or immune to a tough year in the market like 784 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two or twenty twenty three. But it certainly 785 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: sounds like the firms that have become more professional, more institutionalized, 786 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: are better positioned to withstand these sort of transitions. Is 787 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: that fair? Fair? 788 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 2: It is fair? But when we talk about top doest style, 789 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 2: let's not forget a lot of the funds I mentioned 790 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 2: in the beginning were top desctile funds and they are 791 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 2: no longer. So things can unravel very quickly. You have 792 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 2: to be front footed. You have to be constantly thinking 793 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,919 Speaker 2: about how you can improve your process even if things 794 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 2: are going well, whether you're built for a different market 795 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: environment and to be able to withstand the challenges that 796 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 2: are going to be the result. 797 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: Of that really intriguing. So let's talk about this competition 798 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: out there for some of the best fund managers. How 799 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: aggressive is the fight for talent? 800 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 2: I would call it a feed frenzy. 801 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: Really, that's quite a phrase in terms of what people 802 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: are paying or just the hunger for that sort of talent. 803 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: Why are feeding from? Well? 804 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: I think I need to step back and explain where 805 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 2: we are today is an industry, Okay, So bear with 806 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 2: me as I set the stage, okay, and then we'll 807 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 2: talk about the action going on on this stage, so 808 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 2: more so today than ever before. We have the haves 809 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 2: and the have nots. There has never been a clearer 810 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,919 Speaker 2: bifurcation between the two. In the have not category, we've 811 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 2: got the long short equity funds that are directional and concentrated, 812 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 2: which have had horrific performance. I'm not exaggerating. Tell us, 813 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 2: I'm gonna go there. 814 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: This is what I love about Alana. She does not 815 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: hold back. 816 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 2: I don't hold back. I am a truth teller. 817 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: Like it or not so long short, not well, But let's. 818 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 2: Talk about it because I'm not sure people really know. 819 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: If you that's a lot of funds, right. 820 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 2: And it's probably forty something percent of the almost fun industry. 821 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 2: Let me give you another statistic since you're asking about numbers. 822 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 2: The Financial Times did an article at the beginning of 823 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 2: this year and it talked about aggregate losses for twenty 824 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 2: twenty two in the industry. It was north of two 825 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 2: hundred billion of losses. 826 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: That's some real money the. 827 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 2: Tiger cub community, which is a relatively small number of 828 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 2: funds relative to all the burger kings of McDonald's out there. 829 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 2: As we said earlier, there are tens of thousands of 830 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 2: hedge funds. Do you know what percent just those funds 831 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 2: those descended from Tiger management, small group of funds, do 832 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 2: you know what percent they were of that total? 833 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: I would guess half of that total. 834 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 2: No, I mean that you can't say half. It was 835 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 2: twenty five percent a quarter more than twenty five percent, But. 836 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: That doesn't like a dozen funds that's well. 837 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 2: You know, maybe a little more. But that doesn't even 838 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,799 Speaker 2: include funds like other notable funds that are huge and 839 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 2: have had huge draw downs like al Keon which is 840 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 2: a thirty billion dollar fund pre its losses, or Whale 841 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 2: Rock which was thirteen billion, or Red Mile ten billion. 842 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 2: I mean, when you think about all of the directional 843 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 2: long short equity managers, it's an enormous list. Tiger community 844 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 2: is only, as you know, small ish percent of that. 845 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 2: What we did is look at I had my team 846 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 2: pull any fund that was a billion or greater, which 847 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 2: is again no small fee to get to that level 848 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 2: of AUM. So these are the material players, most of 849 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 2: whom are many multiples of that, and we looked at 850 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 2: their performance over twenty one and twenty two on average bary, 851 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 2: these funds are down thirty to forty percent. With funds 852 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 2: like Tiger Global down as high as sixty percent. Tiger 853 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 2: Global was one hundred billion pre the losses. There was 854 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 2: an article that came out the other day. They're now 855 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,399 Speaker 2: fifty one billion. 856 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: So fo half wow, cut in half. 857 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 2: So that's how much value has come out of the industry. 858 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 2: And what that means is you have a huge high 859 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,280 Speaker 2: watermark to get out of, you have no performance fee 860 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 2: and no line of sight to getting to one anytime soon, 861 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 2: and you have aum shrinking by virtue of the losses 862 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 2: as well as the fact that LPs are now rightly redeeming. 863 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 2: That's just long short equity. Then we've got Macro right 864 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 2: which last year had a good year, but I feel 865 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 2: like macro is very spiky. You have a good year, 866 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 2: you have a bad year. So you've got lots of 867 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 2: choppiness in the macro world. And then you've got the 868 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 2: other side of the ledger, so lots of funds that 869 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 2: are having a really tough time of it. Huge percent 870 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 2: of the hedge fund world, and the other side of 871 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 2: the ledger are the multi managers. We looked at their performance, 872 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 2: the top multi managers over the last three years, and 873 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 2: you know what that is. Barry the cumulative performance there 874 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 2: is if your multi manager is at the low end 875 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 2: thirty five percent, Wow. At the high end north of 876 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 2: eighty eight percent, that's sit at al leading the pack. 877 00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 1: Wow. 878 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 2: But any of them you're going to have done better 879 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 2: with than the whole cabal of funds I just mentioned. 880 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 2: And then you also have top multi strategy funds like 881 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 2: Golden Tree. There's a reason Steve Tannebaum's fund was thirty 882 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 2: four billion and twenty twenty it's now almost fifty billion. 883 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 2: He's put up great consistent returns and he's been very 884 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 2: commercial as to how he's grown the fund. So you 885 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 2: would think to yourself, doesn't talent therefore in all the 886 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 2: have nots want to go to the halves? And the 887 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,359 Speaker 2: short answer is yeah, although it's more nuanced than that, 888 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,240 Speaker 2: because people will get into it. I'm sure at some point. 889 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,800 Speaker 2: They're all sorts of things that factor into why someone 890 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 2: may not be so quick to leave, even in an 891 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 2: obviously broken situation. But at least more people are coming 892 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 2: to the table voluntarily than ever before. But the difference is, 893 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 2: and the reason I call it a feeding frenzy, it's 894 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 2: not so much now we're getting somebody who is in 895 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 2: what they feel to be a winning situation to think 896 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 2: more broadly about their next opportunity, which is that's hard, right. 897 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 2: They feel very happy, they feel they're treated well, and 898 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 2: we have to architect something and a pathway that doesn't 899 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 2: exist where they're at, and maybe they'll engage in a 900 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 2: conversation to explore that further and eventually maybe they'll make 901 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 2: a move. Now people are meeting with us, and there's 902 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 2: a woman we met with recently who called herself and 903 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 2: we've been dining out on this phrase ever since, multi 904 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 2: manager curious. 905 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: That's very funny. 906 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want so she's having. They want to have 907 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 2: conversations with everyone, and that makes it much more intense. 908 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 2: It's not just one conversation, it's like seven conversations, and 909 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 2: they really are relying on us to help guide them 910 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 2: through that and figure out what the best fit is. 911 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 2: Another dynamic barrier that's important to keep in mind is 912 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 2: because these are the has, they have grown, in some 913 00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 2: cases at a rate which is not sustainable. Some of 914 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,239 Speaker 2: these multi managers are two in three x what they 915 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 2: were even a few years ago. LMAR in twenty twenty 916 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 2: was four point six billion, Now it's eleven billion. Hudson 917 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 2: Bay was five and a half billion, then now it's 918 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 2: almost twenty billion. 919 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: Wow, that's four x. 920 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,439 Speaker 2: Yes. So the reality is, and it's in a very 921 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 2: short period of time. Talent doesn't proliferate at that level. 922 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 2: So when we talk about feeding frenzy, there's also a 923 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,680 Speaker 2: question as to how these funds are going to perform 924 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 2: if they're not being disciplined about the amount of the 925 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 2: capital they are taking in to meet being able to 926 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 2: hire good people to deploy it. You look at a 927 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,839 Speaker 2: firm like Citadel, which is closed to new investors, they 928 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,320 Speaker 2: could be multiples of what they are, and the best 929 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,799 Speaker 2: funds are super disciplined about how they've grown. Ballyasni lost 930 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,839 Speaker 2: a lot of capital in twenty eighteen, it got down 931 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 2: to six billion. It took five years to get back 932 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,600 Speaker 2: up to peak aum, which is twenty billion now. But 933 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,399 Speaker 2: they were really disciplined about how they did it. They 934 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 2: didn't just boom, you know, double and triple within a 935 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,400 Speaker 2: few years. They built their infrastructure, risk management and hired 936 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,319 Speaker 2: great pms to lead these businesses. And that it's so 937 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:26,200 Speaker 2: important because you can have you'll dilute returns without getting 938 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 2: the talent piece right in keeping pace to AUM growth. 939 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,760 Speaker 1: Huh, that's really interesting. So we're going to talk more 940 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,399 Speaker 1: about talent and a bit, but I want to go 941 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,280 Speaker 1: back to some of the things you raised. That's really 942 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. So it's obvious if you're making a directional bet, 943 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,400 Speaker 1: or even worse, a leverage directional bet and you're wrong, 944 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: your fund's going to suffer. But I'm kind of intrigued 945 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: by what you said about Macro. I know there's a 946 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,080 Speaker 1: wide dispersion of performance in Macro, but if any year 947 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: Macro should done well, it was twenty twenty two, where 948 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: if you had the inflation side right, if you. 949 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 2: Had that, they did They did well in twenty two. 950 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 2: I think the point the point I was making is 951 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 2: it's been choppy in that it's like twenty two was good, 952 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 2: but then look at twenty one and look at twenty three. 953 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: So as that's what you mean by spikey, is that's 954 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: what I mean by spikey. 955 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,400 Speaker 2: I mean an AUM, by the way, has followed that. 956 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 2: Revan Howard at peak was forty billion, then it drops 957 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,359 Speaker 2: down to six and change in twenty eighteen, and now 958 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 2: it's back up again. But that's what I mean by spikey. 959 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,320 Speaker 2: As opposed to an entity, whether it's a top multi 960 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,359 Speaker 2: manager or a top multi strat that is able to 961 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 2: navigate different markets, put up consistent return stream over time, 962 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,919 Speaker 2: and for the multi managers do it totally uncorrelated. That's 963 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:47,359 Speaker 2: all out. 964 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,840 Speaker 1: So that's where I was going to go. Multi multi 965 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: strategy seems to be a very attractive atro manager. 966 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:55,360 Speaker 2: You mean multiman no. 967 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,239 Speaker 1: Multi strategy, because if you're a single strategy and it's 968 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: an either a bad part of the cycle or you 969 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,160 Speaker 1: just make the bet wrong. So leverage directional. 970 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 2: Or mar you have your hands in many different pots and. 971 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,760 Speaker 1: Something should be working, and even if it's not working, 972 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: is non correlated exactly. So is it safe to say 973 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: that the top performing funds, the ones that have the 974 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,400 Speaker 1: best track record of attracting talent, are going to be 975 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 1: the multi strat multi managers or or what is the 976 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: distinction there? 977 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 2: There's there's transition risk no matter what you do. 978 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,040 Speaker 1: Meaning somebody just jumping from one fund to another may 979 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,840 Speaker 1: not carry their performance with them. 980 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,360 Speaker 2: Right and they have to learn new skills. And the 981 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:44,479 Speaker 2: reality is people typically don't leave something. They don't leave 982 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,799 Speaker 2: to go to do something similar. They leave to go 983 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,080 Speaker 2: do something which is a market step up from where they. 984 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: Are in terms of size, or in terms of strategy, 985 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 1: or many things. 986 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 2: In terms of many things, in terms of autonomy, in 987 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,760 Speaker 2: terms of size, in terms of wingspan, also sorts of things. 988 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 2: What I was referring to is the gap that exists 989 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 2: at the single strategy funds, where at the end of 990 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 2: the day, the ultimate arbiter of what happens at the 991 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,239 Speaker 2: fund is the founder. So it is attractive to go 992 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,719 Speaker 2: somewhere where you will where you will now be given 993 00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 2: the ability to manage a portfolio and make decisions, or 994 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 2: at least be on a path to learn how to 995 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 2: do that, And so there's greater receptivity to making that 996 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 2: transition and taking on that transitional risk today because the 997 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 2: paradigm these people sit in is no longer working. These 998 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 2: funds are large, are underwater in a very extreme way. 999 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: So let's extrapolate this and talk bigger picture. What I'm 1000 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:52,879 Speaker 1: hearing from you is a specific single strategy founder led 1001 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: fund entails different risks for star performers. Then does a 1002 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 1: more institutionalized professional multi strategy fund that has the ability 1003 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,400 Speaker 1: to ride out ups and downs. It's not whether or 1004 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: not their style is in favor of that moment, they're 1005 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 1: approaching investing from a much more I know, holistic is 1006 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,800 Speaker 1: almost a dirty word, but a much more holistic approach 1007 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 1: by making sure that they're checking more boxes off. 1008 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 2: Let's say it like this, I think that a lot 1009 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,720 Speaker 2: of individuals sitting at these I'll use long short equities 1010 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:34,800 Speaker 2: as the example. Okay, single manager concentrated long short equity funds. 1011 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,480 Speaker 2: Those funds might have done well up until twenty twenty one, 1012 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,879 Speaker 2: not because their process was so good, but they were 1013 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,800 Speaker 2: the beneficiary of an upmarket, and you could just belong 1014 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 2: and do fine, and you didn't have to develop a 1015 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,480 Speaker 2: shorting skill set. You didn't have to develop the ability 1016 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 2: to balance factors. You could just be long growth stocks 1017 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 2: and you base could just sort of do fine with 1018 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:07,760 Speaker 2: very lazy risk management. So in order to transition successfully 1019 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,840 Speaker 2: to a multi manager, which is far more disciplined in 1020 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 2: its approach to risk, you need to now learn a 1021 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 2: whole other set of skills which will enable you and 1022 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 2: that should be attractive to generate consistent returns over time. 1023 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,759 Speaker 2: But these are not skills that you would have. These 1024 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 2: are not muscles you would have developed up to this point. 1025 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,320 Speaker 2: So there is risk both sides in somebody making that transition. 1026 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,399 Speaker 1: So there's a risk for staying in a fund that 1027 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:42,000 Speaker 1: is singularly focused and perhaps had the wind that they're 1028 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,399 Speaker 1: back for the past decade and got lucky as well 1029 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: as the risk in transitioning. 1030 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,839 Speaker 2: Is that a fair to say one hundred percent? 1031 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,640 Speaker 1: Really quite interesting? So let's talk a little bit about 1032 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:58,360 Speaker 1: the hunt for talent. You mentioned superstars before. How do 1033 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,399 Speaker 1: you identify a rising star? 1034 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 2: Table stakes, good intellectual horsepower, work, ethic, training, and a 1035 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 2: history of results. But I would call those things necessary 1036 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 2: but not sufficient, because as we've just talked about, there 1037 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,200 Speaker 2: are a whole bunch of funds that may have had 1038 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 2: good outcomes over a period of time, but didn't have 1039 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:23,280 Speaker 2: great process. So the other things we're really looking for 1040 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 2: under the hood are insatiable curiosity, self awareness, a growth 1041 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:34,400 Speaker 2: mindset coupled with an intense desire to improve and learn, 1042 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 2: and passion. And I'll give you a quick story that 1043 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 2: I think encapsulates all of that. Real time. We just 1044 00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,400 Speaker 2: took this guy out. He hasn't even yet started at 1045 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,640 Speaker 2: his new gig. So there's a person that, like I 1046 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,840 Speaker 2: said earlier, we are in dialogue with people for a 1047 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,320 Speaker 2: long time. We've been talking to him for the better 1048 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 2: part of his ten years of investing. Well to put 1049 00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 2: a fine point on his successes, his early success, he 1050 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 2: was made a PM. They call it something else where 1051 00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,120 Speaker 2: he was, but basically the same thing. He was made 1052 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 2: a PM after four years, four years of investing experience. 1053 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 2: He was made a pmy early super early never invested before. 1054 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 2: So after four years they gave him capital. He was 1055 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,680 Speaker 2: running a couple billion of gmvow complete autonomy and a 1056 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 2: clear payout. So of course he didn't want to leave. 1057 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,120 Speaker 2: Like again, the differences. There has to be something structurally 1058 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,120 Speaker 2: inefficient in not working and broken to leave, so just 1059 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,920 Speaker 2: to give that up to go someplace else, we're on 1060 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 2: the margin, some things would be better. Wasn't enough, and 1061 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 2: we can explain why those differences are not marginal. But 1062 00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, he had a pretty 1063 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,920 Speaker 2: good gig and was staying put. At the end of 1064 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,240 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, he asked for a meeting. Oh and 1065 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 2: I'll give you another he asked for me. Well, we 1066 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 2: keep in touch, but it was now something like, now's 1067 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 2: the time first. 1068 00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,920 Speaker 1: You've gotten into his head enough that he's starting to 1069 00:58:58,920 --> 00:58:59,680 Speaker 1: see cracks. 1070 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,840 Speaker 2: Well, something specific, specific happening. So four full years as 1071 00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 2: an investment professional becomes a PM. In his second full 1072 00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 2: year as a PM, he's paid seven million bucks. So 1073 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,240 Speaker 2: this is not too shabby. Guy's doing great. At the 1074 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 2: end of twenty twenty two, he asks for a meeting. 1075 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 2: We sit down and he says, I had a really 1076 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,480 Speaker 2: bad year, which a lot of people did in twenty two. 1077 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,919 Speaker 2: This is not unusual. We just talked about it, and 1078 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,160 Speaker 2: I said, are you under pressure? Is what's your relationship 1079 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,440 Speaker 2: like now with the founder? He said, there's no issue 1080 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,120 Speaker 2: whatsoever like we you know, no issue because a lot 1081 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,840 Speaker 2: of those losses came precisely or the reason for those 1082 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,200 Speaker 2: losses came because the founder likes us, which I knew 1083 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,919 Speaker 2: to be concentrated and put a lot of capital where 1084 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 2: we where we have high conviction. So when I step 1085 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,800 Speaker 2: back and look at my losses for the year, they 1086 00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,200 Speaker 2: were one hundred percent in one name. And then I 1087 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 2: went back and looked at my history of returns and 1088 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,520 Speaker 2: what I found is my hit rate is exceptionally high. 1089 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,640 Speaker 2: I have a really high batting average, which is you 1090 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,440 Speaker 2: know about it, Barry, is very unusual in this industry. 1091 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 2: So I said to him, Aha, So if you're going 1092 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:16,000 Speaker 2: to win more than lose. Why put all your eggs 1093 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,200 Speaker 2: in just a few baskets, you know, because the reality 1094 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 2: is it's just not worth the risk. 1095 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,440 Speaker 1: Right, But that's the structure of the founder. 1096 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 2: But that's the structure the founder wants. So what he realized, 1097 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 2: and especially in this new market paradigm that we're in 1098 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,480 Speaker 2: where things are not just going in one direction and 1099 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 2: it's much more difficult to call things and there is 1100 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:40,600 Speaker 2: a lot more market risk entering into the equation of 1101 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,600 Speaker 2: why things perform in the way that they do, he 1102 01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,600 Speaker 2: realized he wants to run more diversified and he wants 1103 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,760 Speaker 2: to be somewhere that will teach him how to do 1104 01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,479 Speaker 2: that better and give him the resources to be able 1105 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:53,760 Speaker 2: to do it. Because if you're going to have a 1106 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 2: lot more names in your book, you also need a 1107 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,560 Speaker 2: bigger team. And what I love about this story is 1108 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,320 Speaker 2: it shows someone who refused to rest on his laurels. 1109 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: He very self aware exactly. 1110 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 2: He stepped back and figured out what he's best at 1111 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,439 Speaker 2: where he's stagnating, and put himself on a path to grow. 1112 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,240 Speaker 2: I kind of almost think that this is a metaphor 1113 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,800 Speaker 2: for the hedge fund industry, writ large. They just there 1114 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,000 Speaker 2: are so many funds that don't take that step back 1115 01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,520 Speaker 2: and think about what they need to do to improve themselves. 1116 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 2: They just kind of it's you know, like I said earlier, 1117 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 2: it's a it's an up market. What we're doing is working, 1118 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,160 Speaker 2: So why rock the boat? Or I won't name the fund, 1119 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 2: but you may guess who it is. There was a 1120 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:45,600 Speaker 2: founder who shut down who in large part think his 1121 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 2: approach to risk management wasn't that different at thirty billion 1122 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,080 Speaker 2: of GMV from what it was at two billion. He 1123 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,920 Speaker 2: just didn't didn't scale, didn't adjust to the scale, and 1124 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,320 Speaker 2: didn't develop the tools necessary to see correlations in the 1125 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:02,800 Speaker 2: book that might not have been obvious. 1126 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,800 Speaker 1: So let me circle back to the manager you're just 1127 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,880 Speaker 1: referring to, who had that high degree of self awareness. 1128 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:16,600 Speaker 1: Generally speaking, how rare are stars like that or superstars 1129 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,640 Speaker 1: like that? It seems this guy checked all the boxes 1130 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: and even in an off year, seemed to be trending 1131 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 1: in the right direction. 1132 01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 2: Where he had no pressure from the founder. This wasn't 1133 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,640 Speaker 2: like he felt that he was on shaky ground, far 1134 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,280 Speaker 2: from very rare. I would say it's a handful of 1135 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,760 Speaker 2: times a year that I would call someone a superstar. 1136 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 2: It's everything I just described, but it's also the muscle 1137 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,240 Speaker 2: memory of having done this for twenty years where it 1138 01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,320 Speaker 2: just kicks in. You know, you know when you're sitting 1139 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,880 Speaker 2: opposite someone that embodies all of that and some of 1140 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:49,960 Speaker 2: the other things that you know, how do you know 1141 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:55,480 Speaker 2: it when you see it? I talked about intense intellectual curiosity. 1142 01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,880 Speaker 2: One of the ways that manifests is these people are 1143 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 2: voracious consumer of information. You ask them what they do 1144 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,400 Speaker 2: in their spare time, what they read, it's but it's all. 1145 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,560 Speaker 2: It's what they read, and it's just it's coming out 1146 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,720 Speaker 2: of their eyeballs. Like all of this the subject matter 1147 01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:15,520 Speaker 2: that they're interested in. It also goes to passion, and 1148 01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:20,360 Speaker 2: by passion I mean a real desire to just be 1149 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 2: engaged in what they do twenty four to seven. But 1150 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:29,000 Speaker 2: I am not talking about being passionate about their investments, 1151 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 2: because you really need to be unemotional when you're making decisions, 1152 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,720 Speaker 2: and that maybe goes to low ego too. It's not 1153 01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,960 Speaker 2: about being quote right, because being right and making money 1154 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,280 Speaker 2: are two separate things. By the time you're right, you 1155 01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:42,560 Speaker 2: might have lost your shirt. 1156 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,680 Speaker 1: So literally, the title of a nid Davis book being 1157 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,120 Speaker 1: right or making money. You're kidding at one hundred percent. 1158 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,960 Speaker 1: The grandfather probably the most respected technician. 1159 01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:57,680 Speaker 2: Ever, so honored to be that same breath. 1160 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,240 Speaker 1: So tell us about some the current trends that you 1161 01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,000 Speaker 1: see in twenty twenty three that might be a little 1162 01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,440 Speaker 1: unique or surprising versus what we've seen over the past 1163 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:08,120 Speaker 1: couple of years. 1164 01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 2: So, in spite of everything I've said, people can still 1165 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:17,680 Speaker 2: be quite sticky. And there is this inertia that I 1166 01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 2: often see where people overweight what can go wrong in 1167 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 2: making a move, underweight what they have to gain, and 1168 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:29,840 Speaker 2: turn a blind eye to stayin put. And given the 1169 01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,720 Speaker 2: clarity of the situation right now, it is just mind 1170 01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,320 Speaker 2: boggling to me that people who assess risk for a 1171 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,600 Speaker 2: living can still be so obtuse for lack of a 1172 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 2: better word. And I think it goes to something that's 1173 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,960 Speaker 2: really important, which is you have to be intentional about 1174 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:53,280 Speaker 2: managing your career. Stayin put cannot be just the default position. 1175 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,680 Speaker 1: Is it just inertia? People just get comfortable and don't 1176 01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:58,200 Speaker 1: want to move. 1177 01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,000 Speaker 2: I think people get comfortable and they feel like again, 1178 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 2: it's economic loss of version theory at work. They overweight 1179 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:09,720 Speaker 2: everything that can go wrong, and they really don't pay 1180 01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:15,080 Speaker 2: attention to if they make a move, they underweight what 1181 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,120 Speaker 2: can go right, and they're just not focused on the 1182 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 2: dire situation that they're in. And when you're being deliberate 1183 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 2: about managing your career, you're asking and I'm not suggesting 1184 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,080 Speaker 2: people hop around for the sake of hopping around, but 1185 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,520 Speaker 2: you do need to ask yourself the tough questions at 1186 01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,240 Speaker 2: various pivot points. And this isn't just true for hedge funds, 1187 01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,720 Speaker 2: it's true for any industry. How is my fund or 1188 01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,080 Speaker 2: firm performing? How am I evolving? Am I learning the 1189 01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,880 Speaker 2: skills I need in order to be effective going forward? 1190 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,280 Speaker 2: Am I on a path to grow? Am I stagnating? 1191 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,920 Speaker 2: Or am I increasing my value and optionality in the market? 1192 01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,400 Speaker 2: Am I being paid fairly? And you know to the 1193 01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,800 Speaker 2: extent that they're not, and they're just literally sticking their 1194 01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,200 Speaker 2: head under the covers and not thinking about these things. 1195 01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,880 Speaker 2: They really need to ask themselves why that's the case. 1196 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,760 Speaker 2: It's the number one reason people flame out. They don't 1197 01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,040 Speaker 2: keep pressing forward, don't keep improving, don't keep learning. 1198 01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:23,480 Speaker 1: So that raises a really interesting question because you're suggesting 1199 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,320 Speaker 1: that talent should be thinking about more than just salary 1200 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,440 Speaker 1: and equity. There's a lot of other things they should 1201 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:35,600 Speaker 1: be looking for. When you're counseling a superstar to switch funds, 1202 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,800 Speaker 1: what are you telling them that they can get besides 1203 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,000 Speaker 1: just hey, here's money and you get some equity in 1204 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 1: the GP. What's in it for them? 1205 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,640 Speaker 2: So I can just still? I think there's four main things. 1206 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,920 Speaker 2: One is to be made better, to learn things that 1207 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,280 Speaker 2: they're not learning where they're at, which, more than ever 1208 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:59,600 Speaker 2: today is important matter sure. Number two is autonomy and 1209 01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,920 Speaker 2: even if if it's not complete, jurisdiction over the portfolio. 1210 01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:08,400 Speaker 2: Increased ability to impact the results. Okay, so you people 1211 01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,320 Speaker 2: should really want that and that sense of agency. The 1212 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,600 Speaker 2: second thing is clarity, not the number per se that's important, 1213 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,360 Speaker 2: but clarity around how we get to that. 1214 01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:23,120 Speaker 1: Number, meaning it's not a crazy calculation. You have an 1215 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,600 Speaker 1: idea each month, each quarter, how you're personally doing that. 1216 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:28,320 Speaker 2: I'm not saying it has to be well. I mean, 1217 01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,640 Speaker 2: if you're on a payout then yes you do. But 1218 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:37,320 Speaker 2: even in situations where you don't have a payout or 1219 01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:42,320 Speaker 2: points in the fund, you have to have clarity around 1220 01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:47,160 Speaker 2: why the founder makes the decisions he does. The most 1221 01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,400 Speaker 2: frustrating thing in this industry is for people who perform 1222 01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,760 Speaker 2: who get netted, meaning the founder takes from Peter to 1223 01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,280 Speaker 2: pay Paul and doesn't reach into his own pocket in 1224 01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,160 Speaker 2: order to do that. I was in the fourth thing 1225 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:04,840 Speaker 2: just before I forget is stability. I'll come back to 1226 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:09,760 Speaker 2: compensation stability or clarity around compensation stability in terms of 1227 01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,560 Speaker 2: that you're not going to get blown out at the 1228 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,800 Speaker 2: slightest misstep. These are the fourth things right that are 1229 01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,640 Speaker 2: important to people, and stability that the fund is on 1230 01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:23,719 Speaker 2: solid footing, which increasingly is a more difficult thing given 1231 01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 2: how many funds look today like melting ice cubes. But 1232 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:30,800 Speaker 2: back to compensation, the founder has to be clear on 1233 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:33,920 Speaker 2: what the P and L is of the fund and 1234 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,320 Speaker 2: how he uses the management fee. To the extent that 1235 01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 2: there isn't a clear formula in terms of how you're paid. 1236 01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,400 Speaker 2: People need to understand why they're getting paid what they're 1237 01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:45,000 Speaker 2: getting paid. 1238 01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:49,479 Speaker 1: So I'm a little confused. You're a rock star at 1239 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,360 Speaker 1: one fund, you get an enticing offer in another funds, 1240 01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,880 Speaker 1: and you may not know what your comp is going 1241 01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,480 Speaker 1: to look like, even if you're putting up really good numbers. 1242 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:01,480 Speaker 1: That's perplexing. 1243 01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:04,800 Speaker 2: If you're sitting at a fund where the. 1244 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,639 Speaker 1: Guy across the hole is thinking the joint up, you're 1245 01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:08,839 Speaker 1: not going to get your bonus. 1246 01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,719 Speaker 2: I mean, let's just say you put up two hundred million, 1247 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,679 Speaker 2: the guy across the hall lost two hundred million. There's 1248 01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,920 Speaker 2: no pass through model, so the founder is zero in 1249 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,160 Speaker 2: terms of a performance fee if all he has is 1250 01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,519 Speaker 2: the two of you and he's allocated capital to you. 1251 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,880 Speaker 2: So is he going to reach into his own pocket 1252 01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,719 Speaker 2: to make you whole or not? And if you don't 1253 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:33,040 Speaker 2: have a payout that he has to abide by, and 1254 01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:36,040 Speaker 2: that can be really frustrating. If he doesn't actually make. 1255 01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:37,880 Speaker 1: You I think that would be good for your business, 1256 01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:39,840 Speaker 1: because that guy's going to be out the door. Hey, 1257 01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: I don't care about who else you're hiring. If I'm 1258 01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,759 Speaker 1: putting up good numbers, I expect you to at least 1259 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,280 Speaker 1: have a conversation with me about all right, we're only 1260 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,360 Speaker 1: going to give you half of what you expected because 1261 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,760 Speaker 1: Bob across the hole blew up. But I mean, what 1262 01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:54,679 Speaker 1: really happens to though. 1263 01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,120 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I will tell you twenty twenty two 1264 01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:02,679 Speaker 2: is really interesting because I was pleasantly surprised by quite 1265 01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,720 Speaker 2: a few examples of founders who did reach into their 1266 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,840 Speaker 2: own pocket to pay their best people, like the story 1267 01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 2: I told early on, where some of these funds with 1268 01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:15,040 Speaker 2: very big holes still did substantial guarantees to retain their 1269 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:16,559 Speaker 2: top people for this year and. 1270 01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:19,200 Speaker 1: For next years long term smart long term smart. 1271 01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,639 Speaker 2: Although the you know, the problem is to the extent 1272 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,960 Speaker 2: those funds continue to lose aum because LPs are redeeming 1273 01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:28,559 Speaker 2: or don't get and or don't get out of those 1274 01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,360 Speaker 2: high water marks in some reasonable period of time, that's 1275 01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:33,400 Speaker 2: not really sustainable. 1276 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,240 Speaker 1: Well, they could just dissolve and reform. 1277 01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,240 Speaker 2: And also those those guarantees are ceilings, and really talented 1278 01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,680 Speaker 2: people want to be able to have untapped ability to 1279 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:45,840 Speaker 2: get paid. 1280 01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,080 Speaker 1: Clear skies above and if they do really well, they 1281 01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:48,840 Speaker 1: expect to get paid. 1282 01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,919 Speaker 2: But Barry, what you're picking up on, which is correct, 1283 01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,400 Speaker 2: is to the extent founders don't have a pass through model, 1284 01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,000 Speaker 2: meaning they have to. It's just everything is out of 1285 01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:59,920 Speaker 2: the management fee and performance. 1286 01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,400 Speaker 1: As opposed to segmenting four different funds, and the performance 1287 01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:08,120 Speaker 1: fee goes to each of those individual silos. 1288 01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:12,400 Speaker 2: Well, meaning they can pass through the expenses of the fund. 1289 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,320 Speaker 2: So you can pass through the expense of paying that 1290 01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,200 Speaker 2: guy who made two hundred million. All that should matter 1291 01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,960 Speaker 2: to LPs is your net return. So you know, a 1292 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,720 Speaker 2: pass through model is a higher bar because there's more 1293 01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,840 Speaker 2: expenses at the end of the day. But these guys 1294 01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,439 Speaker 2: who have that very coveted fee structure are able to 1295 01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:34,720 Speaker 2: have that because their net returns are worthy of it. 1296 01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,519 Speaker 2: They have a high enough net return in any event. 1297 01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,000 Speaker 2: I do think what talent wants is a pathway where 1298 01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,960 Speaker 2: they have more agency over what they do, and more 1299 01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:48,120 Speaker 2: control and clarity around how they get paid, they get paid, 1300 01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,320 Speaker 2: and just to be made better over times they continue 1301 01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:51,799 Speaker 2: to evolve. 1302 01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,360 Speaker 1: So let's flip the question what are the top hedge 1303 01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,840 Speaker 1: funds looking for? It's got to be more than just 1304 01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,799 Speaker 1: P and L. Tell us what the top funds want 1305 01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,080 Speaker 1: when they ask you to go find me a superstar 1306 01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:07,280 Speaker 1: in this space. 1307 01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,920 Speaker 2: Coming up a level, I will tell you. I do 1308 01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:15,559 Speaker 2: think funds trip themselves up sometimes in using terms like 1309 01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:21,160 Speaker 2: analyst and PM and partner, because those things mean very 1310 01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,439 Speaker 2: have very different definitions depending on who we're speaking to. 1311 01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,400 Speaker 1: Do they matter at some of the larger hedge funds 1312 01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,760 Speaker 1: or are people wearing multiple hats doing the same job. 1313 01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:35,840 Speaker 2: What I mean is we define different Founders define those 1314 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,880 Speaker 2: things differently. So I'll give you an example. We did 1315 01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,800 Speaker 2: a search about eight years ago for a well known 1316 01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:47,120 Speaker 2: single manager, long short equity founder who'd been around at 1317 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,200 Speaker 2: that point for twenty years and had just had one 1318 01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,320 Speaker 2: of his most senior people depart. And what he told 1319 01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:56,960 Speaker 2: me he wanted was a partner. The guy was a partner. 1320 01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,320 Speaker 2: He wanted someone who, he said, he's willing to give 1321 01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,599 Speaker 2: this guy some stancial points and would operate really as 1322 01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,880 Speaker 2: a PM alongside him. I want someone who's going to 1323 01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:11,439 Speaker 2: be able to make decisions with me, help deploy capital, 1324 01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:15,040 Speaker 2: help size, help construct the portfolio, more of a PM 1325 01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,559 Speaker 2: than an analyst. And what I said to him is, 1326 01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,719 Speaker 2: there's no one I can find you that has twenty 1327 01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:22,880 Speaker 2: years of working with you and the way that you 1328 01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,280 Speaker 2: evolved people, because everyone there was hired basically as a 1329 01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:30,000 Speaker 2: young analyst out of Goldman and then homegrown. He saw 1330 01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,880 Speaker 2: what people were capable of, they had wins with him 1331 01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,960 Speaker 2: over time, and then he gave them more and more responsibility. 1332 01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:40,400 Speaker 2: So to go into the market and basically find what 1333 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,519 Speaker 2: for him would be a stranger and put that person 1334 01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,679 Speaker 2: in at a senior level. I knew wasn't going to work, 1335 01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:50,160 Speaker 2: and in fact, what we ended up doing was putting 1336 01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:53,439 Speaker 2: in It was a senior person, but it was someone 1337 01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:58,120 Speaker 2: who was less experienced was really a senior analyst, and 1338 01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,000 Speaker 2: that person was happy to have a seat at the 1339 01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,320 Speaker 2: table and be able to feed him ideas and over 1340 01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:07,280 Speaker 2: time morph into more of a PM or partner type role. 1341 01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:11,000 Speaker 2: But PM means different things, even among the multi managers 1342 01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:14,200 Speaker 2: who do have that, you know, where that title really 1343 01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,240 Speaker 2: does mean they're giving somebody an allocation of capital and 1344 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:20,639 Speaker 2: that person does have autonomy. In some places a PM 1345 01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:26,040 Speaker 2: is really no, it's always managing capital, but it might 1346 01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,280 Speaker 2: be a small amount of capital. You might start with 1347 01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:30,680 Speaker 2: a paper book. It's like a mini PM, you know, 1348 01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 2: or a PM with training wheels, and you might be 1349 01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:36,720 Speaker 2: overseeing a very small team to start. In other places, 1350 01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:39,800 Speaker 2: we want somebody who can build a scale business right 1351 01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:44,000 Speaker 2: out of the gate and can manage a lot of capital. 1352 01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:46,760 Speaker 2: And by the way, their definition of analysts may be 1353 01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,120 Speaker 2: different some there are places where being an analyst almost 1354 01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:53,720 Speaker 2: looks more like a PM. They are managing a significant 1355 01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,680 Speaker 2: amount of GMV. They do have a payout on that. 1356 01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,479 Speaker 2: Their definition of analysts may look again, it may look 1357 01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:03,800 Speaker 2: more like mini pms. So we really need to dig 1358 01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:08,160 Speaker 2: into these things and define what we're after. And I 1359 01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:13,679 Speaker 2: would say for an analyst, that's idea, generation, creativity, independent research, 1360 01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,559 Speaker 2: asking the right questions. For a PM, it's risk management, 1361 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:21,840 Speaker 2: portfolio construction, hedging, sizing, the ability hopefully to build and 1362 01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,400 Speaker 2: manage a team. And where we're looking for someone to 1363 01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:26,880 Speaker 2: build a strategy, that's more like a founder. It's someone 1364 01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,920 Speaker 2: that we can raise capital around, potentially raise a fund around, 1365 01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:33,599 Speaker 2: and of course attract talent and also has a sense 1366 01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,680 Speaker 2: of what is needed with respect to technology and operations 1367 01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,559 Speaker 2: for their strategy. So different skill sets. 1368 01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,240 Speaker 1: I was going to say, it sounds far more complex 1369 01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,679 Speaker 1: than I think a lot of people might assume looking 1370 01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:50,880 Speaker 1: in from the outside. How important is fit? How do 1371 01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:54,600 Speaker 1: you figure out, hey, this square peg is going to 1372 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:59,240 Speaker 1: fit or won't fit into that round funds? How do 1373 01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:05,040 Speaker 1: you evowvaluate personalities? On top of all these really challenging 1374 01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:07,479 Speaker 1: skill sets, it sounds like it's not an easy thing 1375 01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:07,800 Speaker 1: to do. 1376 01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,120 Speaker 2: There are things we do to see how closely the 1377 01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,760 Speaker 2: candidate maps to what we will want them to do. 1378 01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:20,720 Speaker 2: We do case studies, idea pitches, mock portfolios, business plans. 1379 01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:22,840 Speaker 2: You know, those are all sort of the hoops we 1380 01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,320 Speaker 2: have them jump through. But then in addition we do 1381 01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,160 Speaker 2: soft referencing as a firm. If you think of twenty 1382 01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:32,040 Speaker 2: years of meeting with the most talented people at every 1383 01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:35,040 Speaker 2: Hedge fund, odds are if you're a candidate, Barry, I've 1384 01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:37,320 Speaker 2: met with five other people from your fund that have 1385 01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,280 Speaker 2: a point of view on you. Right, So we very 1386 01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:43,960 Speaker 2: quickly get a three sixty on how people think, their 1387 01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:48,320 Speaker 2: velocity of ideas, their response time when they spot an opportunity, 1388 01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,920 Speaker 2: their ability to commit capital, and how they systematize their 1389 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,960 Speaker 2: process so it's scalable and repeatable. These are all the 1390 01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,320 Speaker 2: things we're going to dig into in finding out about people. 1391 01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,439 Speaker 2: And I also love it when someone comes in with 1392 01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,360 Speaker 2: a clear sense of attribution. I don't think it's a 1393 01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,439 Speaker 2: great sign if someone has no idea what their p 1394 01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:09,759 Speaker 2: and L is. I get that often it's not tracked 1395 01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:11,240 Speaker 2: at many funds. 1396 01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,320 Speaker 1: Well really, I'm shocked to hear that. Because you not 1397 01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:18,320 Speaker 1: formally tracked and could still export your book to Excel 1398 01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:19,880 Speaker 1: spreadsheet and say here's where I am. 1399 01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,120 Speaker 2: We're saying the same thing I expect people to have 1400 01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:24,280 Speaker 2: done that. I expect people to have a clear sense 1401 01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:26,880 Speaker 2: of attribution. To the extent that they don't, it's not 1402 01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,840 Speaker 2: a good sign, that's what I'm saying. I would but 1403 01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,960 Speaker 2: the best people come in I mean, honestly, some of 1404 01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,880 Speaker 2: them come in with a huge spreadsheet. This is what 1405 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,000 Speaker 2: I've contributed. And by the way, here are all the 1406 01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,160 Speaker 2: things I wanted to do that the founder didn't let 1407 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:42,920 Speaker 2: me do, and how I would have performed if they've 1408 01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,000 Speaker 2: let me. Now I'm savvy enough after all these years 1409 01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,559 Speaker 2: to know and that if I add it all a 1410 01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,120 Speaker 2: little bit of a grain of salt, and if I 1411 01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:54,519 Speaker 2: added up all of the returns of everyone we meet 1412 01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,200 Speaker 2: from fund A, B or C, it would probably be 1413 01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:00,240 Speaker 2: north of three hundred percent. So you know, there's that, 1414 01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,639 Speaker 2: But I think there is still something to a sense 1415 01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:08,200 Speaker 2: of ownership and directional truth. And then the final thing 1416 01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:10,559 Speaker 2: I'd say to you is there's always a leap of faith. 1417 01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:14,120 Speaker 2: I don't care how much work both sides do, and 1418 01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,479 Speaker 2: we do a lot of work to have a strong 1419 01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,840 Speaker 2: sense that the person will be successful. There's always a 1420 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:27,559 Speaker 2: leap of faith. Because we're talking about different founders, different 1421 01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:33,520 Speaker 2: definitions of success and failure, different investing style, different approaches 1422 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:37,240 Speaker 2: to training and development. And I always tell the clients 1423 01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,200 Speaker 2: I'm working with that they have to lead with war stories. 1424 01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,400 Speaker 2: They have to lead with all the things that might 1425 01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,479 Speaker 2: have gone wrong early on when they recruit someone, and 1426 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,720 Speaker 2: how they help that person to get out of a 1427 01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:51,439 Speaker 2: hole and to go on and be successful, because that's 1428 01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,519 Speaker 2: what's in the minds of people before they make a leap. 1429 01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:57,639 Speaker 2: What happens when things go south? How will I be treated? 1430 01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,600 Speaker 2: And founders really need to or whoever's doing the recruiting, 1431 01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,000 Speaker 2: And this is again any industry, you really need to 1432 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:10,880 Speaker 2: lead with what constitutes failure losing money in and of itself, Yes, 1433 01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,760 Speaker 2: you failed to make money, but why how did you 1434 01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:15,360 Speaker 2: get yourself into that situation? 1435 01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:16,080 Speaker 1: You know? 1436 01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:19,000 Speaker 2: So there's sort of like good failure, which is a 1437 01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:21,600 Speaker 2: learning experience, and we think we can improve you. And 1438 01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,439 Speaker 2: let's define what is a situation where we think it 1439 01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,680 Speaker 2: actually isn't the right fit. You need to give people clarity. 1440 01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:32,280 Speaker 1: Makes sense. A good process will occasionally have a bad outcome, 1441 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,600 Speaker 1: and you can't just assume every good outcome is the 1442 01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,040 Speaker 1: result of a good process. All right, so I only 1443 01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,840 Speaker 1: have you for a few more minutes. Let's jump to 1444 01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:44,360 Speaker 1: our favorite question that we ask all our guests starting 1445 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,840 Speaker 1: with what has been keeping you entertained over the past 1446 01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:49,599 Speaker 1: couple of years. What have you been doing either when 1447 01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:52,439 Speaker 1: we were locked down or just re out? And about 1448 01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:54,160 Speaker 1: revenge traveling. 1449 01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:57,240 Speaker 2: Revenge traveling well. I took a fantastic trip with my 1450 01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:59,320 Speaker 2: son to Italy last summer. 1451 01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I do reco. We were talking about that and we 1452 01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,519 Speaker 1: didn't know what was going to happen. There was a 1453 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,479 Speaker 1: couple of Varians we were both talking about traveling last summer. 1454 01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,000 Speaker 1: Where'd you go in Italy? 1455 01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,880 Speaker 2: It's almost where didn't we go? We went everywhere. The 1456 01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:17,120 Speaker 2: only places we didn't go were Pulia my pronouncing that correctly, 1457 01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:21,680 Speaker 2: soft ge Pulia, and we didn't go to northern. 1458 01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:26,120 Speaker 1: Italy Como and I want to check that out phenomenal. 1459 01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:28,959 Speaker 1: I haven't been to Milan. I haven't been to Modina, which. 1460 01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:34,559 Speaker 2: Was either, but those are that's worth hitting. 1461 01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,080 Speaker 1: I have a friend who did this private tour where 1462 01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,400 Speaker 1: instead of staying at hotels, you stay at people's houses 1463 01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,240 Speaker 1: and they cooked dinner for you and it's Grandma making 1464 01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,000 Speaker 1: the secret family recipe. And he said he came home 1465 01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:51,160 Speaker 1: twenty pounds heavier. I'm sure it was amazing. Let's talk 1466 01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:54,040 Speaker 1: about mentors who helped to shape your career. 1467 01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:57,599 Speaker 2: It's totally my parents. Really, I had amazing parents. 1468 01:20:58,000 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 1: What did your parents do? 1469 01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:04,960 Speaker 2: My father ran a small insurance brokerage, so he was 1470 01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,560 Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, but small, I mean he was. This is 1471 01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:13,240 Speaker 2: your classic first generation immigrant story. My dad did grow 1472 01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:17,360 Speaker 2: up in the States. He was born and raised in Brooklyn, 1473 01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:21,840 Speaker 2: part of what we often termed the Greatest Generation, right right. 1474 01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,559 Speaker 2: He volunteered to fight World War Two. He was an 1475 01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:29,719 Speaker 2: amazingly patriotic person. He was a tailgunner for B twenty nine's. 1476 01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,360 Speaker 2: They used to take us out. My parents used to 1477 01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:34,519 Speaker 2: take us out to airfields in the middle of nowhere 1478 01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,599 Speaker 2: to look at these old planes. Really hard working guy. 1479 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,360 Speaker 2: And I listened to all the issues that he would 1480 01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:44,320 Speaker 2: bring home and discuss with my mom, who's an amazingly 1481 01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,920 Speaker 2: smart woman. She can run circles around most people. And 1482 01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,360 Speaker 2: she was kind of this CEO of our family. She 1483 01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:54,160 Speaker 2: really pushed us to be our best. She helped my dad. 1484 01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:58,520 Speaker 2: She came here. She was a hidden child during the Holocaust. 1485 01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:02,759 Speaker 2: Oh really, it's a whole story unto itself. She came 1486 01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:06,559 Speaker 2: to is then her family emigrated to Israel, and then 1487 01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:09,240 Speaker 2: she came to the United States, met my father, and 1488 01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:11,840 Speaker 2: they were we didn't have much growing up. They just 1489 01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:13,640 Speaker 2: they did the best they could in the way of 1490 01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,880 Speaker 2: giving us stuff. But there wasn't really a lot of 1491 01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:19,760 Speaker 2: material wealth that I grew up with far from but 1492 01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,840 Speaker 2: I had great parents who taught me the importance of 1493 01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,240 Speaker 2: by example through my father and my mom just in 1494 01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:31,479 Speaker 2: terms of her wisdom of constantly pressing forward. And you know, 1495 01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:34,960 Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of room for whining in my house. 1496 01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:39,599 Speaker 2: She's you know, she was a in the Israeli Army. 1497 01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:45,120 Speaker 2: She's tough, she's strong. My dad again, great wonderful man 1498 01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:50,280 Speaker 2: who's a phenomenal salesperson, but worked super hard and I 1499 01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:53,920 Speaker 2: admired his resilience. And it was about pushing forward and 1500 01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,519 Speaker 2: not giving up. And that I think is that grit 1501 01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,240 Speaker 2: and perseverance. We didn't really talk too much about that. 1502 01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:04,120 Speaker 2: I actually think it's one of the most important determinants 1503 01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,280 Speaker 2: of someone's success in life and also professionally. 1504 01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:11,519 Speaker 1: Grit and perseverance good good qualities to have. Let's talk 1505 01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,559 Speaker 1: about books. What are some of your favorites. What are 1506 01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:14,479 Speaker 1: you reading right now? 1507 01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:20,240 Speaker 2: Well, I love books that are about real life. Could 1508 01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:22,840 Speaker 2: be a moment in time like Tom Wolf type books, 1509 01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:27,000 Speaker 2: maybe the story is quote fiction but loosely based on 1510 01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:30,799 Speaker 2: things that were happening then, or of course Michael Lewis, 1511 01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:33,720 Speaker 2: which is you know, those are real stories told in 1512 01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:37,320 Speaker 2: a highly entertaining way. The stuff I'm reading now is 1513 01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:39,960 Speaker 2: courtesy of my eighteen year old son who's gotten into 1514 01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,960 Speaker 2: the habit of buying his mom books she thinks that 1515 01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,200 Speaker 2: he thinks she might like, and he's hit it out 1516 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:48,639 Speaker 2: of the jackpot every time. Yeah, so now thanks to Jordan, 1517 01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:52,360 Speaker 2: I'm reading I think it's called Ticking Clock. It's by 1518 01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:55,880 Speaker 2: Ira Rosen, who is a producer for sixty Minutes It 1519 01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:57,960 Speaker 2: and he bought me that because he knows I love 1520 01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:02,639 Speaker 2: the movie Wither with Russell Crowe, which was an expose, 1521 01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:05,320 Speaker 2: of course on the tobacco industry, but also on the 1522 01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:10,559 Speaker 2: world of journalism. And the book is fascinating. It's like 1523 01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:12,960 Speaker 2: being in the newsroom. It's all the intrigue that went 1524 01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:16,880 Speaker 2: on behind the scenes. It's it's just it's an amazing 1525 01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,840 Speaker 2: and it's so funny. He's just he's like this irreverent, 1526 01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:26,639 Speaker 2: nobs awesome, engaging storyteller, phenomenal. And then the other book 1527 01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:29,320 Speaker 2: I'm reading that my son got for me is called 1528 01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:31,880 Speaker 2: The Kings of New York, which is about really the 1529 01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,559 Speaker 2: New York skyline and the whole real estate industry and 1530 01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:38,960 Speaker 2: again told almost like a thriller in terms of how 1531 01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:43,519 Speaker 2: it unfolded, who, what all the inside baseball was and 1532 01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:47,080 Speaker 2: the rise and fall of a number of real estate dynasties. 1533 01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:51,960 Speaker 1: Huh, really quite fascinating. Our final two questions, what sort 1534 01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,519 Speaker 1: of advice would you give to a recent college grad 1535 01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:58,639 Speaker 1: who was interested in a career in either hedge funds 1536 01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:01,000 Speaker 1: or talent scaled and recruiting? 1537 01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:04,200 Speaker 2: For anyone, the question is why do you want to 1538 01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:07,400 Speaker 2: do that? What is it? And if the answer for 1539 01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,960 Speaker 2: anything is because they think it's lucrative, that's not a 1540 01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:11,479 Speaker 2: good answer. 1541 01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,080 Speaker 1: So, by the way, I've heard that time and again 1542 01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:16,400 Speaker 1: from people sitting in that seat. Hey, if you're in 1543 01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:19,520 Speaker 1: this game for the money alone, you're going to be disappointed. 1544 01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:22,360 Speaker 2: It's important to try. If you know what you want 1545 01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:24,639 Speaker 2: to do, that's great. I have a candidate right now 1546 01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,320 Speaker 2: who's been investing in biotech since he was thirteen. Really, yes, 1547 01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:30,320 Speaker 2: and so he knows what he wants to do. And 1548 01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,040 Speaker 2: I learned that because I said, what you studied in 1549 01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:36,400 Speaker 2: college was really interesting. You were pre meed, which is 1550 01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:40,000 Speaker 2: tough enough, and also studying business, Like, how did you 1551 01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,479 Speaker 2: know back then? He's like, I just knew. I knew 1552 01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:44,840 Speaker 2: I wasn't going to be a doctor. I was fascinated 1553 01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:46,800 Speaker 2: by biotech, but I wanted to come at it from 1554 01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,000 Speaker 2: the investing angle to the extent you don't really know. 1555 01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:53,360 Speaker 2: I think it's so important to try different things, you know, 1556 01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:56,920 Speaker 2: to your opening questions to me, I didn't know, and 1557 01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:01,000 Speaker 2: I learned through all of my experiences what I liked, 1558 01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:03,400 Speaker 2: what I was best at, and just as valuable, what 1559 01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:05,800 Speaker 2: I didn't like and what I felt. You know, I 1560 01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,840 Speaker 2: wasn't a natural app I think it's okay to go 1561 01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:11,000 Speaker 2: on a bit of a journey early on, but you 1562 01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,920 Speaker 2: have to be on that journey aggressively and meaning If 1563 01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:18,400 Speaker 2: what you're doing is not something that really is singing 1564 01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:21,040 Speaker 2: or speaking to you, you have to keep moving forward 1565 01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:25,599 Speaker 2: till you figure it out so purposefully, purposefully you can 1566 01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,000 Speaker 2: then lock in and really build something. 1567 01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:31,439 Speaker 1: Huh, really interesting And our final question, what do you 1568 01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:35,799 Speaker 1: know about the world of investing today? Hedge funds, talent 1569 01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,360 Speaker 1: recruitment that you wish you knew? Twenty years ago when 1570 01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:40,840 Speaker 1: you first launched IDW. 1571 01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:45,520 Speaker 2: I'll use your word purposefully. It's really important for founders 1572 01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:50,080 Speaker 2: to manage their team purposefully, meaning you have to give 1573 01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:53,280 Speaker 2: people room to fail, but you also have to cut 1574 01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:56,000 Speaker 2: when it makes sense. And I think a lot of 1575 01:26:56,080 --> 01:27:00,559 Speaker 2: founders are afraid to do that because will it look 1576 01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:04,559 Speaker 2: to LP's it's it's it's uncomfortable to have to do those, 1577 01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:07,880 Speaker 2: to have to, you know, to have to manage people out, 1578 01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:11,240 Speaker 2: what will it do to our culture? But a killer 1579 01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:15,919 Speaker 2: culturally is to be someplace where it becomes a hotbed 1580 01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:19,559 Speaker 2: for mediocrity. And so the best bed. 1581 01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:23,640 Speaker 1: For mediocrity, meaning you just start accumulating. 1582 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:26,679 Speaker 2: Dead would and it becomes And I hear this time 1583 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:30,400 Speaker 2: and again where people say, you know where they haven't 1584 01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:32,920 Speaker 2: really been paid that well, well, there's this kind of 1585 01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:36,000 Speaker 2: smoothing effect that goes on at our firm where maybe 1586 01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:38,920 Speaker 2: I'm not paid as well as I should be, but 1587 01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,040 Speaker 2: in down, you know, when things don't go with that 1588 01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:44,760 Speaker 2: well at the firm, I also am not hit as 1589 01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:47,760 Speaker 2: hard perhaps as other places. And I said, can we 1590 01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:49,760 Speaker 2: and I say, can we take a step back and 1591 01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,320 Speaker 2: look at your personal P and L history For the 1592 01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:56,080 Speaker 2: most part, you've been a rock star every year you've 1593 01:27:56,120 --> 01:28:00,679 Speaker 2: been earth. Are you giving yourself an artificial ceiling here? 1594 01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:03,040 Speaker 2: And why are you, you know, for someone who can 1595 01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:05,880 Speaker 2: never put up the goods? That's a great paradigm. Why 1596 01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:09,559 Speaker 2: is it for you? And so I think again, it 1597 01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,200 Speaker 2: all comes back to being front footed as talent, but 1598 01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:19,080 Speaker 2: also as an institution in managing, in managing for growth aggressively. 1599 01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:22,040 Speaker 1: Alana, thank you for being so generous with your time. 1600 01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:25,360 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Alana Weinstein. She is the 1601 01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:29,120 Speaker 1: founder of the IDW Group and is known as one 1602 01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:32,759 Speaker 1: of the most powerful women in the world of hedge funds. 1603 01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,439 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this conversation, well be sure and check 1604 01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:39,559 Speaker 1: out any of the previous five hundred or so we've 1605 01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:42,960 Speaker 1: done over the past nine years. You can find those 1606 01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:49,240 Speaker 1: at YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, wherever you get your favorite podcasts from. 1607 01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,839 Speaker 1: Sign up for my daily reading list at ridelts dot com. 1608 01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:55,600 Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter for as long as Twitter is 1609 01:28:55,640 --> 01:28:59,600 Speaker 1: here at Ridholt's follow all of the Bloomberg family of 1610 01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,360 Speaker 1: pod at podcast. I would be remiss if I did 1611 01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:06,679 Speaker 1: not thank the crack team of experts who helped put 1612 01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:11,080 Speaker 1: this conversation together. Each week Paris Wold is my producer. 1613 01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:16,160 Speaker 1: Somanth Danzinger is my audio engineer. Attika Valbron is my 1614 01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:21,280 Speaker 1: project manager. Sean Russo is my researcher. I'm Barry Ritolts. 1615 01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,480 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio