WEBVTT - #223 Jason Flom with Joe D'Ambrosio 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.160 On Saturday, September twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight, the body 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:07.880 of nineteen year old Anthony Clan was discovered on the 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.680 east side of Cleveland, Ohio, in Rockefeller Parkstone Creek. He 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:13.960 had been stabbed in the chest three times and his 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.960 throat was slit on the verge of decapitation. The ground 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.000 around him was undisturbed, suggesting that. 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:22.560 The murder occurred elsewhere. 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.040 One of the three men who came to identify the 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.840 body on Monday, September twenty sixth, and thus began to 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.040 control the narrative, had arguably the most to gain from 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.520 doing so, a convicted rapist and drug dealer named Paul 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:39.040 Stony Lewis, whom Anthony Clan had once identified in another rape. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.000 The two other men supported Stoney's narrative at trial. During 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.360 the investigation of fourth man emerged the victims cuckoled Edward Espinoza, 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.440 who joined the narrative and received leniency for the part 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.400 he played in the murder in exchange for his false 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.760 eyewitness testimony against his employer Michael Keenan and his co 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:02.160 worker Joji abroshow some elements of the story were real 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.240 and occurred on Thursday September twenty second, but had little 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.319 to do with the actual night of Anthony Clan's murder Friday, 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.800 September twenty third. Both Michael Keenan and Joe de Ambrosio's 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.920 whereabouts on Friday night were known, and despite Espinoza's two 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.959 separate and contradictory affidavits and knowing about the discrepancy between 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:29.440 the two nights, the prosecution nevertheless forged ahead, hiding a 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:34.000 mountain of exculpatory evidence and sending Joe de Ambrosio and 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.280 Michael Keenan. 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:53.640 Straight to death row. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.400 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today you're 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.800 going to hear the story of Joe d Ambrose, who 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.240 is the sixth person to be exonerated from Ohio's Death Throw, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.799 one hundred and fortieth in America to be exonerated. Joe, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.959 this story is, I mean, it's got so many twists 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.160 and turns. But let me just for the audience's sake, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.480 before I even introduce you, let me just say this 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.280 involves a group of cops that were so corrupted. Forty 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.000 four of them were charged with taking money and protecting 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.079 cocaine operations in Cleveland and northern Ohio. This goes back 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.000 to the nineteen eighties. Of course, it involves a date 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.000 that was changed in order to make the case fit 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.080 the facts instead of the other way around. It involves 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.880 a dead body found in Dones Creek that had been 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.360 stabbed and split throat and everything. I mean, this thing, 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.720 I'm not even scratching the surface. I hate to say it, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.800 but you lived it. So Joe, I'm sorry for what 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.079 you went through, but I'm very very grateful and honor 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:56.600 that you're here on the show with us today. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.120 Thank you very much. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.080 And with us is a very you unique individual with 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.080 a unique name as well. We have Neil Kakutha, who 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.760 was one of the great heroes in this story, but 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.399 who was also When I say the unique individual, here's 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.080 a guy who's a nurse, a lawyer, and a priest. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:16.880 I mean it almost sounds like the punchline and a 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.320 joke or the setup to a joke, right, a nurse, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.080 a lawyer, and a priest walking a bar. But then 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.040 it was only one guy. Hey, and here he is, 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.480 so Neil Kakuthe. Thank you for being here with us today. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:28.760 It's good to be with you. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.000 And Joe, you were a guy who served in the 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.480 US Army, right You achieved the rank of sergeant. 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:35.120 Is that correct? 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.840 Yes, and we're honorably discharged. But were you a guy 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:40.880 who had had a lot of trouble with the law 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.240 before this crazy thing happened. Tell us a little bit 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.760 about your background, your upbringing. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.400 I grew up just outside of Cleveland in the suburbs, 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.560 a little town called North Royalton, and the only thing 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.240 that was in that place was bars and gas stations 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.040 and farms. So I kind of a country boy, and 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.160 I didn't on a stay and be one of those 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.480 three things. So I joined the military as soon as 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.080 I got out of high school. I did my four 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.640 years in the military, and then I got out, honorably discharged, 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.880 sergeant out of the military, and then this thing comes 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:16.559 out of the blue. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:18.719 I mean, is it fair to say that this could 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:20.200 happen to you? It could happen to anyone. 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.599 Oh, exactly, I'm the most common Joe there could be. Truly. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.159 All it takes is one person, no other evidence, one 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.840 person to point their finger at you and say they 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.200 stood there and watched why you killed this person? And 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:34.800 there you go. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.080 It's so nuts that you could have ended up on 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.680 death row just because of one person with a lot 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.080 to gain by saying so, right, an incentivized person. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:45.720 Right. 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.039 So I'd like to set this stage a bit here. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.520 This is the late eighties and liter Lily on the 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.600 east side of Cleveland, Ohio, very reminiscent of Tony I. 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.120 Panovitch's story. Actually, you know, bar culture, lots of partying 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.279 going on, and in this case there's coke drinking and 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.120 a group of friends and acquaintances, some of whom Joe 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.479 worked with doing landscaping. And then there's a bit of 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.560 crossover from that group into the drug business of a 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.200 guy named Paul Stony Lewis. 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.480 So Stony was just your local two bit drug dealer 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.400 down in the little Italy neighborhood on the east side 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.240 of Cleveland. And Anthony Klan was one of these guys 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.840 that frequented Stony, as was a number of the other guys. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.159 Michael Keenan in this case, at Espinoza and others hung 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:34.400 around together. 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.839 Right, And something that needs to be pointed out here 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.440 was that months before this murder occurred, back in May 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:47.039 nineteen eighty eight, Stoney allegedly raped Anthony Clan's roommate Chris Longenecker, 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.400 and Anthony and Chris were both scheduled to testify against 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:55.200 Tony Lewis, but Chris Longenecker was legally blind and misread 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.480 when they were supposed to appear in court, so Stony 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.760 was released, leaving Clan and Longeneck are in danger. Now 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.720 you mentioned before Mike Keenan and Edward Espinoza, who, from 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.479 what I understand, had a landscaping business. Mike Keenan Joe's 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.000 kind of co defended in this whole mess. He was 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:16.359 the owner and Espinosa was his foreman. And Joe around 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.360 the end of August nineteen eighty eight, you were going 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.839 to go back into the military, but you needed to 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.080 wait on your discharge paperwork to be reissued. And while 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.760 you waited, you worked for Mike Keenan. Do I have 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:28.159 that right? 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.240 Well, I needed a job to hold me over, and 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.719 I grew up in the country cutting grasses like in 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.599 my blood, So yeah, I got hired on September first, 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.000 nineteen eighty eight. September twenty sixth, I'm sitting in jail, 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:41.600 accused the most tenous crime in. 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.440 The world right. But before we even get to that, 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.320 I want to talk about Thursday night, September twenty second, 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.640 nineteen eighty eight, a day before this murder occurred. It 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.320 was the events of that night that were used to 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.400 predicate the narrative that was used against you and Michael 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.400 Keenan at both of your trials, while all along people 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:06.120 had seen the victim here, Anthony Clan alive the following night, Friday, 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.279 September twenty third, one of whom even gave him camp 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.240 Fair home. But we'll get to that later. So let's 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.480 go back to Thursday the twenty second. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.720 On Thursday night of this week, all of these people, 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:24.560 Eddie Espinoza, Mike Keenan, with Mike Keenan's girlfriend, Anthony Clan, Joe, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.040 Dan Brosio, Paul Stony Lewis, they were on a pub 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.440 call through the Coventry area of Little Italy, and so 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.400 they were all drinking that night. And Joe admittedly was 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.400 part of this drinking group on Thursday night at these 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:42.200 different bars, and at one of the bars, Joe, where 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.120 was it where they got into the restroom fight? 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:45.680 That was Coconut Joe's. 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:51.120 So Anthony Clan and Eddie Espinoza got into a somewhat 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.160 violent or at least racous altercation in the men's room 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.640 of the bar. There is some suspicion that Anthony Clan 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:06.760 was having a sexual relationship with Eddie Espinoza's girlfriend. Anyway, 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.400 that racus scene at the bar caused the bouncer to 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.600 throw them out, and Eddie Espinoza takes a beer bottle, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.520 slams it against the bar, breaks it in half, and 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:24.160 starts threatening people. And so they're thrown out and the 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.080 night moves on, the police come, everybody assures them that 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.800 they're calmed down, there won't be any problem, and they 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.480 go home. So we've got Eddie Espinoza, who's already in 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:40.200 conflict with Tony Klan over something which we suspect as 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:45.440 a triangular romantic relationship. And we got Paul Stony Lewis, 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.920 who's involved with Anthony Clan because Anthony Klan is a 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.959 witness to this rape with Christopher Longenecker. And you've got 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.760 both of those people who are involved with Anthony Klan 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.240 from different perspectives. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.000 So we're going to come back to Thursday night and 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.920 what eventually becomes the narrative of the case against Joe 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.240 and Mike Keenan in a minute, But first let's talk 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:11.040 about what we know. On Saturday, September twenty third, nineteen 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.000 eighty eight, nineteen year old Anthony Klan's body was found 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.880 by a jogger on the east side of Cleveland and 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.959 Rockefeller Parks Doan Brook or Doan Creek, depending on who 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.840 you're talking to, they have different names for it. He 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.560 had sustained multiple stabounds to the chest and his throat 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:29.080 had been slit so deeply that he had nearly been decapitated. Now, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.160 no murder weapon was ever found, and the body went 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.679 unclaimed until Monday the twenty sixth. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.720 That Monday, an anonymous caller called in to the morgue 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:45.160 and asked if there was a nineteen year old kid. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.600 Does he have this color hair, these color eyes, these 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:55.280 tattoos and these marks on his hands and wrists? And 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.480 the detective got on the phone and the Detective's like, yes, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.640 we have him. Can you come down and please identify him? 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.600 The guy he wouldn't identify himself, and then he hung up. Wow. Well. 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:12.360 Shortly after that, Stony Foot and Adam Flannick all went 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:17.040 down to the morgue and identified Anthony. But the thing is, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.760 how did Stony know about the defensive wounds on Anthony's 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.760 hands and arms? All who was in the paper was 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.720 a little blurb that an unidentified white male was found 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.400 in Dome Creek and that was it. 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.760 Right, So at least it appears that the person on 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.599 the phone knew things that only someone involved could have 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.720 possibly known. And then, surprise, surprise, right after the Carter's 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.520 office got this anonymous call, who shows up but Paul Stony, Lewis, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.760 James Russell, or as Joe called him, Foot and Adam Flannick, 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.920 three of the witnesses that helped with Joe and Mike 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.920 Keenan on death row. Now these three men identify the body, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.360 and the narrative began to build that the murder happened 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.800 on the night you were all out together at the bar, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.520 which was Thursday, which is when Stny went home early. However, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:13.760 the murder actually occurred on Friday. Eventually, investigators caught up 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.240 with the guy who had fought with Clan on Thursday, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:21.080 Tony Clan's cuckled, Edward Espinoza, who gave police a false 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.600 eyewitness account claiming to have witnessed Joe and Mike Keenan 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:25.440 commit the murder. 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.400 Eddie Espinoza refers to him as little Tony, and supposedly 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.599 little Tony is his best buddy and he's going to 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.280 do everything he can to protect little Tony all along 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.720 the way. And so Eddie Espinoza gets arrested and taken 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.559 down to the station and he swears out an affidavit 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:51.480 that lists all of the dates, times, places, people and everything. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.439 And then when the police come in and look at this, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.520 they realize that what Eddie Espinoza has put down in 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.640 his the David does not fit the narrative that they 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:08.040 want to paint of this case, and so they have 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.520 him swear out another aff the davit that literally gives 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:19.080 different day, different times, different places, so that the police 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.720 can paint their narrative. And both of those Affi davits, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.440 to this very day, they exist in the file and 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.240 you can put them side by side and you can 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:34.640 see that somebody coached Eddie Espinoza to change his story up. 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.920 Wow. They were like, no, no, that one's not so great? 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:39.840 Am I doing that over? We'll just give you a 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.240 little bit of a right. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.960 Within forty eight hours of each other, two distinct aff 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.559 the Davits sworn out by Eddie Espinoza. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.160 And then how in the world can anybody take anything 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.839 that guy says seriously? After that, well, you know, when 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.520 they want to get somebody, they get somebody. 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.800 And Eddie Espinoza has a violent history. He was also 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:04.119 in the service, dishonorably discharged for drugs and for violent behavior. 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.559 So you got a guy with a violent history and 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.160 a motive to kill as the spurned, cuckolded boyfriend of 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.760 the woman with whom Anthony Klan was having an affair, 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.160 and in his narraive events. After his fight with Anthony 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.400 Klan at the bar, he and Joe headed back to 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.080 Joe's apartment around one thirty am, at which point Mike 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.320 Keenan drove up and told them that Stony had stolen 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.319 drugs from him. Espinoza grabbed a bat, Joe grabbed a knife, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.360 and the three of them drove around looking for Paul 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.680 Stony Lewis Now again, what about this so far is true? 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:36.400 Guess what? 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.880 None of this shit even fucking matters because this is 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.600 Thursday night, not the night of the murder, which was Friday, 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:49.360 so lies truth. It's utterly meaningless to even debated. Now, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.360 another two witnesses supported this narrative, Carolyn Roselle and her 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.400 friend you'll remember him, James Russell. You know his dictum 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.600 was Foot said that the three men knocked on Rosell's 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.520 door looked looking for Stony at around three am. After 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.280 this encounter, Espinosa's narrative continues, saying that while driving along, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.719 they eventually saw Anthony Clan walk on the side of 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.640 the road, forced him into the back seat, interrogated him 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.600 about Stoney's whereabouts, and after Espinoza hit him with a bat, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.840 Clan told them Stony's address, and the men proceed to 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.360 Stony's apartment building. Now, according to Stony's neighbor, you'll remember him, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.920 of course, Adam Flannick, he first heard the group yelling 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.840 at and banging on Stoney's door, saying I want my 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.280 dope or I want my coke. So Flanet continued to 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.800 claim to be able to see down into the car 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.560 where you Joe were allegedly pointing a knife up to 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.320 Anthony Clan's jaw, a view that would be totally impossible 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.200 from any vantage point because of how the back seats 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.480 and Kenyan's pick up face one Another but we still 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.360 don't know what Planet had to gain from saying that 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.760 maybe he was involved, maybe he was coerced, who knows, 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.800 maybe he was even confused. But what we do know 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.160 is that again, it really just doesn't fucking matter, because 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:08.280 Anthony Clan was not murdered that night, but the following night. Anyway, 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.760 back to Espinosa's narrative, the three men went back to Roselle's, 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.560 where they issued a warning for Roselle to deliver to 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.560 Stony that there was a quote contract out on him 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.080 and that they had Clan in the car who was 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.120 quote dead meat. Espinosa goes on to say that Clan 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.000 eventually escaped from the car. Keenan allegedly then told Joe 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.520 to finish him off, and then Joe allegedly ran after Clan. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.200 Clan begged for his life while Joe allegedly killed him 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.000 with a knife. Again, this is a bogus recollection of 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.680 Thursday night, and we know this because we later found 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.200 out that Clan was seen alive again at Coconut Joe's 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.360 on Friday night. He got drunk and was given capfair 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.080 by the barmaid. So that was Friday night, the night 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.640 after this alleged Stony Lewis search party happened, and Joe, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:02.680 on Friday, your whereabouts were totally accounted for, correct, right. 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.360 I was getting near being able to go back into 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.480 the military and I was getting evicted. So I was 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.240 having an eviction party that night, and there was a 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.680 bunch of people that were over all night long. But 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.760 the problem was I'm terrible with names. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.480 Later, when we were able to identify some of the 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.480 names that Joe was talking about people who were indeed 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.760 at that inviction party, one of them mentioned to me 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.920 that on that Friday night, they were all gathered at 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:36.560 Joe's apartment and they were watching a football game, and 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.040 so I'm like, who's got a Friday night football game? 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.080 I'm doing this ten years later. So I literally ended 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.320 up doing some research at the Cuyahoga County Public Library 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.440 for old editions of the Cleveland Plane Dealer, and I 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:54.120 was looking through the high school games that were being 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.320 played on Friday night, and one of them was Brush 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.160 High School on the east side of Cleveland, and names 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:07.400 that we literally discovered later were there. And remember watching 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:08.760 that particular. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.720 Game, and that's the night that the murder actually took place, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.159 not the Knight that was sort of substituted. So you 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.080 had all these people that could exonerate you, but you 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.879 had no way to subpoena them to testify because you 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.159 didn't have full names and numbers, nor did you have 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.560 lawyers who were even particularly interested. And then you've got 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.320 these guys who you've been working or just partying with 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.320 for about the last month, who are all spinning a 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.440 narrative together to close this case for the authorities on 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.080 you and your boss, Mike Keenan. And of course I'm 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.760 talking about Espinosa and Stony Lewis, who would probably have 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:41.760 thrown their own mother under the bus in order to 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:43.720 save themselves from death row. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.639 Exactly so, because I barely knew any of these people, 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.240 I think myself that it was Paul, Stony Lewis and 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:59.080 Espinoza together killed Anthony because they both knew facts that 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.920 only the murder or would know, and then they were 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.240 able to point their finger elsewhere. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.440 So three men ultimately were charged with this gruesome murder, 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.960 Michael Keenan, Edward Espinoza, and you, Joe. And it's important 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.160 again to note that in exchange for his testimony against 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.840 you and Keenan, who were tried separately. Espinoza pleaded guilty 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.520 to manslaughter and was given the lesser sentence of fifteen 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.240 to seventy five years in prison. So we know what 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.560 his motivation was. And this is a guy who we 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.000 know is a liar. You don't have to say he's 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.320 a liar. You can't sign two sworn affidavits that are 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.360 totally different within forty eight hours of each other and 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.880 not be lying. Okay, let's get to the trial. Tell 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:43.800 us a little about your representation. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:49.480 It should be lack thereof representation. If my attorneys would 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:55.199 have believed me and did a little bit of investigation, 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:00.240 I never would have been convicted because father Neil, ten 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.919 years after the fact, was finding all this evidence with 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.119 little work. So my attorneys did very little. One was 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.480 running for mayor of a little town at the time 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.800 and couldn't be bothered, and the other one just didn't 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.359 want anything to do with me because they didn't believe 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.600 me from day one that I had nothing to do 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.639 with this, because they were the ones that talked to 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.479 me into going with a three judge panel because I 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.639 didn't know no better. You have to do very little 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.720 work as an attorney for a three judge panel case. 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.280 So the trial took place on February sixth, nineteen eighty nine, 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.600 in the Cayahoga Court of Common Please, as you said, 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.159 in front of a three judge panel. The prosecutor was 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:46.000 Carmen Marino. Now important to note that no murder weapon 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.520 was ever found in this case, right, So, how the 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.639 hell do you send a guy much less too to 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.280 death row with no murder weapon and no physical evidence. 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.400 Well, back then, I used to hunt and fish, and 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.719 I had my hunting knives. So when they came and 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.160 illegally entered my house and arrested me, they took my knives, 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.560 and all three of my knives tested negative for blood. 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.879 Yet throughout the whole trial they waved them around and 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.160 called them the murder weapons. 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.200 So they're parading around false evidence. What the hell else 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:23.560 was presented against you? 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.120 Most of the time on the stand was covered by 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.000 Espinoza and Paul Stony Lewis. You know when the two 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.880 real murderers are taking the stand and they're backed up 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.200 by the prosecutor, and then you throw in this joke 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.720 of a coroner we had that all she ever did 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.919 was rubber stamp. Whatever the cops said that was their 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:50.480 whole prosecution that Espinosa said he stood there and watched 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.760 why me and Mike Keenan killed Anthony clan Stony says, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.679 the knight that Anthony was killed was the knight that 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:00.160 we were in the bars. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.359 A very very important problem with this is that he 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.200 mixed up September twenty third as September twenty second. 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.560 Exactly what it was is they wouldn't say dates. All 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.320 they kept saying is on the night when we went 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.840 to the bar, when we were there, when we were 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.480 all together, nobody used a date. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.280 And were you elbowing your lawyer going hey, hey, hey, 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:22.440 that's the wrong Oh you bet. 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.399 They did bring up the idea that the state was 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.919 painting the wrong day because the day that you were 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.320 at the bar was tequila Knite, right, And so tequila 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.560 Knight was Thursday not Friday. And you even had the 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.840 proprietor of the bar, Stephen Gaines I believe was his name. Yes, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.960 Stephen Gaines, literally came and took the stand and said 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:50.920 these men were there on tequila knite Thursday, not Friday. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.520 So this discrepancy was actually clearly pointed out. And I mean, 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.439 do you even have any theory whatsoever about how this 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.760 three junge panel could have been so blind and gotten 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:01.920 this so totally wrong. 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.600 You know, you've got anybody that might have been put 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.000 on the stand for Joe's case, we're not available at 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:11.000 the time of the trial to establish that alibi for Joe, 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.080 or to even be there as a character witness. And 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.560 so you put that up against Eddie Espinoza as suspect 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.280 as he may be, but he's claiming to be an 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.320 eye witness to this, and it literally becomes you know, 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.600 where's the greater way of the evidence and the credibility? 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.920 And you know, the three judge panel, who were all 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.879 former prosecutors, have that prosecutorial bent and they're going to 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:38.320 lean that way to begin with. 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.359 See, the one thing that I made my attorneys do 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.120 is let me testify. And I figured if I could 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.520 get up there and tell the truth, the judges would 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.879 be like, come on, this this case is just wrong, 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:56.359 you know, and release me. So my attorneys threw me 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.560 up their cold They didn't give me any preparation, they 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:04.080 didn't have checked when the prosecutor just tore me to pieces, 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.000