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Speaker 2: How do I negotiate a better salary? Bosses there, listen
Speaker 2: and I said, ask him this question. Chris Vons, retired
Speaker 2: FBI Special Agent for what Lead International kidnapping negotiators, but
Speaker 2: author have never split the difference. We don't really see
Speaker 2: the great negotiators as great negotiators. One of the greatest
Speaker 2: negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1: What are women doing wrong or what can they do better?
Speaker 1: In negotiation?
Speaker 2: You're out of order on the sequence?
Speaker 1: Can you negotiate with a narcissist?
Speaker 2: Of course, you can negotiate with the narcissists. One of
Speaker 2: the things we advise people to do.
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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 1: Jay Sety, Jay Sheety Yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: On Purpose. I'm so glad that you're back because I
Speaker 1: love sitting down with incredible minds, thinkers, thought leaders who
Speaker 1: are helping us develop better skills, better habits, and better mindsets.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is a former lead FBI negotiator and dynamic
Speaker 1: speaker who debunks the biggest myths of negotiation. Chris Voss
Speaker 1: engages all groups with captivating stories, insights, and useful tips
Speaker 1: for business and everyday life. Chris is lectured on negotiation
Speaker 1: at business schools and across the country and has been
Speaker 1: seen on ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox News. He's also
Speaker 1: been featured in Forbes, Time, Fast Company, and Inc. And
Speaker 1: Chris's book, Never Split the Difference has sold over two
Speaker 1: million copies. And It's all about negotiating as if your
Speaker 1: life depends on it. If you're in a space in
Speaker 1: your life where you need to get better at dealing
Speaker 1: with conflict, negotiate better, and make sure that you win
Speaker 1: in one of those situations. This episode is for you.
Speaker 1: Please welcome to On Purpose, Chris Vos. Chris, it's great
Speaker 1: to have you in studio.
Speaker 2: Jay, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you so much for being here. As
Speaker 1: I said, I find your work fascinating because I don't
Speaker 1: think it's every day that you get to learn about
Speaker 1: negotiation from someone who's done it in the most high stakes,
Speaker 1: highly critical, difficult environments. And I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: why did you come a lead negotiate to that.
Speaker 2: It's almost a cliche, but it's a little bit of
Speaker 2: following your bliss and then every now and then, I
Speaker 2: think the universe jumps in and makes you change the directions.
Speaker 2: And originally I was on a swap team. I was
Speaker 2: scheduled to be on a SWAT team with the Kansas City,
Speaker 2: Missouri Police Department. I was on a SWAT team when
Speaker 2: I joined the FBI and I reinjured my knee. And
Speaker 2: I love crisis response because I think a comfortable in
Speaker 2: action is one of the banes of human existence. We
Speaker 2: got to make decisions. And so when I was on
Speaker 2: a SWAT team crisis response, you got to make a decision.
Speaker 2: You know, they can't. Let's let's sit back and wait
Speaker 2: and see what happens. That's not really the way you
Speaker 2: approach a crisis. So when I was on the SWAT team,
Speaker 2: you know, we had hostage negotiators. They went along with
Speaker 2: the SWAT guys. I didn't really know what they did.
Speaker 2: You know, we'd be out there in the cold, in
Speaker 2: the rain. They'd be inside someplace warm. But I wanted
Speaker 2: to stay in crisis response, so I thought, yeah, you
Speaker 2: know I could do that. How hard could it be?
Speaker 2: It's my son and I Brandon. I've always joked that
Speaker 2: the Voice family model is how hard can it be be,
Speaker 2: which is similar to a redneck's famous last words, which are,
Speaker 2: hey watch this. It's always going to be more complicated
Speaker 2: than you expect. But I got into it and I
Speaker 2: loved it. It was more satisfying than SWAT ever was.
Speaker 2: And SWATT was great, but hostage negotiation, when I stumbled
Speaker 2: over at the Universe, sort of pushed me in that direction.
Speaker 2: It was a push that I needed, and I've enjoyed
Speaker 2: it ever since.
Speaker 1: And you never felt scared. There wasn't the fear. There
Speaker 1: wasn't the difficult in your mind before you got involved,
Speaker 1: that this could be something that would be extremely difficult,
Speaker 1: potentially painful, challenging.
Speaker 2: No, because first of all, I was rejected for the
Speaker 2: negotiation team. I was in fact eminently unqualified. But I
Speaker 2: went to the head of the program in New York,
Speaker 2: a woman running the team, and she said, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're not qualified, go away. And I said, all right,
Speaker 2: So there's got to be something I could do. What
Speaker 2: is it? She said, go volunteer on a suicide hotline.
Speaker 2: I'm like, all right. So I went to the suicide
Speaker 2: hotline to learn, not to help people, helping people with
Speaker 2: secondary it's good secondary, but I went there to learn,
Speaker 2: and I was fascinated by it. And so then I'm teachable.
Speaker 2: I'm coachable. I learned their process and I saw how
Speaker 2: quickly empathy emotional intelligence accelerated outcomes, positive outcomes, And so
Speaker 2: I wasn't scared as a hostage negotiator because I'd already
Speaker 2: learned in a process that I believed in. I knew
Speaker 2: it was a highly successful process. So when I started
Speaker 2: hostage negotiation, I just leaned into a process that I
Speaker 2: had was familiar with and had been proven to me.
Speaker 1: Worked walk us through what a conversation on a suicide
Speaker 1: hotline sounds like, because I imagine that being highly stressful.
Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who's in a high state of panic.
Speaker 1: There's so much uncertainty. Walk us through what that kind
Speaker 1: of a conversation looks like and what you learned.
Speaker 2: Well, THEE used to it very closely supervised, so I
Speaker 2: think I was a little unsteady at the beginning. So
Speaker 2: for whatever reason I naturally lapsed into what I refer
Speaker 2: to as the late night FM DJ voice, and the
Speaker 2: first call I just said, hello, this is helpline Now.
Speaker 2: That has a tremendously calming effect on people. And afterwards
Speaker 2: the supervisors said your voice was great, that was great.
Speaker 2: You started out great, and I remember thinking like, wow,
Speaker 2: I don't even know what I did. I'm have to
Speaker 2: go back to it. So you want to start with
Speaker 2: a calming, soothing voice, and then no matter what they say,
Speaker 2: you want to put a label in a hostage negotiation.
Speaker 2: We called it emotion labeling. In that Black Swan method,
Speaker 2: we just call it labeling. Put a label on emotion
Speaker 2: that you're hearing. Doesn't matter what it is just label
Speaker 2: it now. Since they're in crisis, the emotion is probably
Speaker 2: going to be negative. And in point of fact, we're
Speaker 2: all driven by negative thoughts. We're seventy five percent negative
Speaker 2: our survival mechanism that we wake up with every day
Speaker 2: to survive. The caveman had to be negative. The optimistic
Speaker 2: caveman said, you know, yeah, you know, Chris walked in
Speaker 2: here yesterday and he never came out. But I'm optimistic.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go in today too. And that guy got
Speaker 2: eaten too. But the negative guys shot away, and we've
Speaker 2: inherited that wiring. And I remember one night in particular,
Speaker 2: this guy's really frantic, sounded sounded super fantic, says you know,
Speaker 2: I just I need to put it. I need your
Speaker 2: help putting a lid on this day. I got to
Speaker 2: put a lid on this day. So I just said,
Speaker 2: you sounds frantic, and immediately came down. There's a neuroscience
Speaker 2: reason for that, now that you know. We never knew then.
Speaker 2: It's just simply calling out a negative emotion is the
Speaker 2: most effective way to deactivate it. So he came down,
Speaker 2: and then to the course of the conversation, I just
Speaker 2: used three labels he was. He was a guy who
Speaker 2: was paranoid. He's getting a lot of support from his family,
Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm going on a car tripped tomorrow.
Speaker 2: I just you know, I just you know, and I
Speaker 2: know my family's helping me, and I just you know,
Speaker 2: I just I need my family's help. But I'm worried
Speaker 2: about it tonight and I can't get to sleep. So
Speaker 2: I hit him with a label that somebody had once
Speaker 2: hit me with. In a conversation, I was telling my
Speaker 2: friend how close I felt to my family, but I
Speaker 2: didn't say it explicitly. It was strongly implied. And my
Speaker 2: friend said to me, it sounds like your family's really close.
Speaker 2: And I remember how good it felt in that moment,
Speaker 2: and I've never forgotten that. So is this guy's describing
Speaker 2: to me how much support he was getting from his family,
Speaker 2: how they were always there for him. It sounded like
Speaker 2: they're close. So I said that exact line. I said,
Speaker 2: it sounds like your family's really close. And I felt
Speaker 2: his strength come back in his voice immediately. So then
Speaker 2: he went on to tell me about how he'd been
Speaker 2: battling paranoia and how hard he was working, and he
Speaker 2: struck me as determined. So I simply said sound determined,
Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, just like that, Yeah, I am determined.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go on a car trip tomorrow and be fine.
Speaker 2: Thanks for everything you did, hung up the phone. That's
Speaker 2: not every conversation, but that's the way they're supposed to go.
Speaker 2: You know, you call out what you're hearing, and it
Speaker 2: really helps people sort of self level because you're great
Speaker 2: sounding board and you're picking out the negatives and deactivating
Speaker 2: them and the positives and reinforcing them just by observing them.
Speaker 1: The reason why I find that so fascinating is because
Speaker 1: I was thinking, so many of us deal with our friends.
Speaker 2: YEP.
Speaker 1: In that sort of an environment, you may get a
Speaker 1: phone call from a friend who's like panicking, they've just
Speaker 1: ended a relationship, they've gone through a rejection of failure,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, and our got instinct is to
Speaker 1: try and solve that problem and to fix it for
Speaker 1: them and fill in the blanks, when actually what you're
Speaker 1: saying is the ability to just notice what they're experiencing,
Speaker 1: what they're feeling, and being able to call it out
Speaker 1: and label it, as you rightly said, that's actually giving
Speaker 1: them the tools to make sense of it for themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it's restoring their tools. And then it's
Speaker 2: also they feel very self empowered. The problem with giving
Speaker 2: advice is the person receiving it doesn't feel empowered. They
Speaker 2: might not be able to sort through it emotionally, and
Speaker 2: so then when you're not there, they're lost again. They
Speaker 2: didn't feel like they got to the answer on their own.
Speaker 2: A great sounding board simply helps his guide helps them
Speaker 2: get to the answer on their own, and then inside
Speaker 2: they say, what wait, I got here on my own once,
Speaker 2: I could do it again. Whereas if you give me
Speaker 2: the advice when you're not around, I might be lost.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a famous quote that says something like good
Speaker 1: leaders make you believe in them. Great leaders make you
Speaker 1: believe in you. And this idea that if someone's really
Speaker 1: leading the conversation, well, the person's walking away with self belief, yes,
Speaker 1: and the confidence and what they have. Before we dive
Speaker 1: into the actual tools and breaking down of a negotiation,
Speaker 1: I find that most people try to avoid a negotiation
Speaker 1: because they see it as conflict. They see it as
Speaker 1: an argument, they see it as a potential debate, and
Speaker 1: most of us are trying to avoid conflict at all costs.
Speaker 1: And so even if it's like your plumber and they
Speaker 1: quote you a price, we're scared of negotiating because we're
Speaker 1: scared of that turning into an altercation. Or if someone's
Speaker 1: trying to sell us something at a store, when we're
Speaker 1: scared to have that conversation about a discount or whatever
Speaker 1: it may be. Walk us through that fear. What have
Speaker 1: you noticed about Where does that fear come from that
Speaker 1: we all carry of. I don't want to get into
Speaker 1: a conflict. I don't want to negotiate. I'll just go
Speaker 1: with what you want because it's easier to be a
Speaker 1: people pleaser.
Speaker 2: Myself and my team we believe even we've got enough
Speaker 2: anecdotal data that the world splits up evenly into three
Speaker 2: types fight flight, make friends, A sort of analyst, a comminator.
Speaker 2: And we've seen this show up globally. It's disconnected from gender, ethnicity, religion.
Speaker 2: So two out of three don't like conflict, the analyst
Speaker 2: and the accommodator. Analysts thinks of life very much like chests.
Speaker 2: Lots of moves, lots of percentages, and analysts want to
Speaker 2: think everything through, all the possibilities and then put percentages
Speaker 2: on it, and conflict is one option, and it tends
Speaker 2: to be highly destructive, highly inefficient, and so the analyst
Speaker 2: doesn't particularly like conflict because it seems to be very
Speaker 2: inefficient and ineffective, and they are far more better ways
Speaker 2: to communicate, So they're avoiding conflict for that reason. The
Speaker 2: relationship on in person the accommodator, conflict is just ugly.
Speaker 2: It makes them feel bad. It sort of pollutes their existence,
Speaker 2: and they see that as a much higher cost. It
Speaker 2: places a very high value on relationships optimism, being very
Speaker 2: hope based. So they're going to avoid it for those
Speaker 2: reasons that. You know, they want to feel connected to you,
Speaker 2: and conflict doesn't make them feel connected to you. Now,
Speaker 2: the third type, the assertive. You know, they love it.
Speaker 2: They say it's combat. They love it, They get into it,
Speaker 2: they recover from the conflict very quickly. I happen to
Speaker 2: be a natural born assertive. Donald Trump is a poster
Speaker 2: child for assertives. It's just one of the three times
Speaker 2: and love combat. But then don't really pay attention to
Speaker 2: the long term costs of being openly aggressive because the
Speaker 2: you know, the adrenaline hit in the moment a victory
Speaker 2: tends to overshadow how the losses pile up, So we
Speaker 2: want you know, two or three, we want to avoid that.
Speaker 2: So the real challenge, though, is we got to collaborate.
Speaker 2: But negotiation has this feeling to it that it's the loudest,
Speaker 2: most agreat a voice in the room, the guy who
Speaker 2: kicks the chair across the room to get his points, screams,
Speaker 2: slams their hands on a table, storms out. You know,
Speaker 2: this thing that actually happens a tendency to pollute the
Speaker 2: collaborative environment. And we don't really see the great negotiators
Speaker 2: as great negotiators. You know, in my view, one of
Speaker 2: the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey. Nobody sees
Speaker 2: her as conflict oriented, that her list of great negotiations,
Speaker 2: her life's achievements based on collaboration and being very positive.
Speaker 2: And then if you were to try to consider the
Speaker 2: context of our life having gained tremendous success in an
Speaker 2: environment filled with maybe some of the most volatile people
Speaker 2: on earth, Hollywood celebrities. What Hollywood celebrities mad at Oprah?
Speaker 2: You know what rock fight has she gotten into? You know,
Speaker 2: who's thrown shade like it is not there simultaneously her
Speaker 2: financial success and the different phenomenal interviews she's gotten. They
Speaker 2: were no no holds Bard's interview. You know, you know
Speaker 2: one of my favorites is Lance armstrong interview. I happen
Speaker 2: to be acquainted with Lance. I like them a lot.
Speaker 2: But there was no punches pulled there. That was a
Speaker 2: negotiation going into that. So spectacular negotiation is really invisible,
Speaker 2: but we don't know that. Because it's invisible. We don't
Speaker 2: think of Oprah as a great negotiator. Warren Buffett, we
Speaker 2: don't think of him as a great negotiator, and they
Speaker 2: have to be. So that's we're just not aware of
Speaker 2: what great negotiation really looks like because it looks like
Speaker 2: great collaboration, great navigation. As soon as you could change
Speaker 2: the definition from win lose to great collaboration, now people
Speaker 2: are interested. You know, how to fine negotiation is great collaboration,
Speaker 2: long relationship where we're both ecstatic about our success. And
Speaker 2: if you can reframe it like that, then people are
Speaker 2: a lot more interested in negotiation. I think that's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons the book has succeeded, because it's not
Speaker 2: a series of stories where we beat anybody. Sometimes we
Speaker 2: had to force collaboration with a highly competitive negotiator. That
Speaker 2: was what kidnapping was about. I'm going to force the
Speaker 2: kidnapper to collaborate. I'm going to force that guy from
Speaker 2: al Qaeda into a collaborative conversation. But I'm not going
Speaker 2: to hit back.
Speaker 1: Walk me through how you force that person into collaboration
Speaker 1: and not hit back, because I think you're right. I
Speaker 1: think the overarching belief we have is, oh, we got
Speaker 1: to beat them. We've got to find a way to
Speaker 1: get what we want from them. Like that's what you
Speaker 1: think of a negotiation, even in normal times, let alone
Speaker 1: those high stakes. But how do you do that in
Speaker 1: that scenario?
Speaker 2: One of my favorite conversations describing this a number of
Speaker 2: years ago. I got to hire it to train hostage
Speaker 2: negotiation team in the Middle East, and the country that
Speaker 2: I was in very pro western country, a Muslim, you know,
Speaker 2: ostensibly a Muslim country, but really tolerant of all religions
Speaker 2: as most of them are. So get brought in to
Speaker 2: talk to the shik that's the head of kind of
Speaker 2: terrorism and I'm told in advance, Uh, the shak if
Speaker 2: we have if al Kinda comes here and grabs people,
Speaker 2: or if any terrorist organization comes here and grabs people.
Speaker 2: Understand the shak wants to kill him, that people of
Speaker 2: his country are his children, and he wants to protect
Speaker 2: his children at all courts. So you sit down with
Speaker 2: the Sheik, he's going to want to know how you're
Speaker 2: gonna protect his people. So I get a meeting with
Speaker 2: this guy, brilliant, brilliant young man, brilliant. And he looks
Speaker 2: at me and he says, all right, what are you
Speaker 2: going to teach my guys to say? And I looked
Speaker 2: at him and I said, they're gonna say to the
Speaker 2: Terra's kidnapper on the other end of the phone, what
Speaker 2: you're doing is a great thing. And his mouth fell open,
Speaker 2: and I said, now I got you, because you can't
Speaker 2: wait to hear what I'm going to say next. You
Speaker 2: were so caught off guard, you were in complete curiosity mode.
Speaker 2: You're hanging on every syllable that comes out of my mouth.
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm going to teach you guys to do.
Speaker 2: And he went, oh, you're hired. But so what is
Speaker 2: driving the other side in their mind? How do they
Speaker 2: see what they're doing, What do they see as a
Speaker 2: justification for it? Like so much conflict, the go away
Speaker 2: if I can simply recognize what you see as the
Speaker 2: reason for your problem without agreeing with it. Probably about
Speaker 2: two years ago, myself and a friend Nicole Benham were
Speaker 2: hosting a room Monk clubhouse. At the time, you know,
Speaker 2: the Israel Palestine. It was the water done version of
Speaker 2: what's going on with Hamas now. Israeli started shelling the
Speaker 2: Gaza strip because Amas in fact is hiding weapons in
Speaker 2: hospitals and schools in the press office, and Israel gets
Speaker 2: tired of it after a while they starts shelling those offices.
Speaker 2: So it's a milder version of what's going on right now.
Speaker 2: But the vitriol going on online was huge, and the
Speaker 2: cole calls me up, she says, you know, we got
Speaker 2: to find a way to help sell this out. I said,
Speaker 2: all right, well, we'll do a room on clubhouse and
Speaker 2: we'll invite people favoring the Palestinians and people favoring the
Speaker 2: Israelis on and they can talk it out. With one rule,
Speaker 2: one caveat. Before you say whatever you have to say
Speaker 2: about what you think of the other side, you got
Speaker 2: to summarize where they think they're coming from, what their
Speaker 2: point of view is and as soon as you get
Speaker 2: it all clear from them, as soon as the other
Speaker 2: side effectively says that's right, that's how I see it,
Speaker 2: you could say whatever you want. Now. Did we come
Speaker 2: to any agreements that night? No? But what was more
Speaker 2: important was there were no arguments. Soon as somebody tries
Speaker 2: to articulate how the other side sees things, it actually
Speaker 2: makes you smarter. I want sort of guy, say, empathy
Speaker 2: is a species of reason. You know, you're analyzing where
Speaker 2: are the other side's coming from? And an attempting to
Speaker 2: genuinely analyze it. You start deactivating their reasons for the escalation,
Speaker 2: because there are reasons for the escalations. Is at least
Speaker 2: they don't feel heard. Let me take that one off
Speaker 2: the table. You don't feel heard. Now we can be
Speaker 2: in a position where we could actually talk about this.
Speaker 2: So I'm interviewing. I get this. This thing on fire
Speaker 2: side is social media app what it is is largely
Speaker 2: I have guessed in it's life. Q and A bring
Speaker 2: a woman on head of a coffee company and she says,
Speaker 2: I use your Israel palestinianthing to negotiate a resolution between
Speaker 2: two my top executives. They're at each other's throats, and
Speaker 2: I love them both and I can't lose either one.
Speaker 2: So remember what we did on you did on Israel Palestine.
Speaker 2: And I brought them in a room and I said, okay,
Speaker 2: you could say whatever you want about the other side,
Speaker 2: but first you got to summarize their position. You got
Speaker 2: to summarize how they see things and what is motivating them.
Speaker 2: And she said two things. She said, we resolved it
Speaker 2: on the spot, and she said it was such a
Speaker 2: moment that I still cry when I think about it. So,
Speaker 2: you know, what's all this rambling about. Take a shot
Speaker 2: at summarizing how the other side sees things. If it
Speaker 2: doesn't solve the problem on the spot, it at a
Speaker 2: minimum brings you closer together, and we're all better off
Speaker 2: closer together.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's such a powerful skill. Whether it's
Speaker 1: in a marriage, whether it's in a friendship, whether it's
Speaker 1: in the corporate setting. It's such a need. And I
Speaker 1: find like, as life has got faster and faster and faster,
Speaker 1: we have less and less time to summarize, and so
Speaker 1: what we end up doing is we just end up
Speaker 1: reading someone else's summary. Right, That's what we're doing online
Speaker 1: on social media is we're reading someone else's summary and
Speaker 1: analysis of a highly complex situation, and more often than not,
Speaker 1: we're reading the summary that supports our viewpoint right, not
Speaker 1: the viewpoint of the other. And so now we have
Speaker 1: less time we're reading someone else's words, which means we're
Speaker 1: not even doing the complex computation of trying to understand
Speaker 1: and comprehend what someone's going through. Hey, you're just catching
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Speaker 1: Go grab your Juny. How do you encourage people in
Speaker 1: this busy, fast pace. You know, we're trying to be
Speaker 1: efficient environment to actually slow down and embody these skills
Speaker 1: that actually require us to use our brains.
Speaker 2: Most of the time. You got to walk somebody through
Speaker 2: something and coach them into applying it because we don't
Speaker 2: see it around us. Is the first problem is we're
Speaker 2: not seeing anybody do this effectively exactly. That's a great
Speaker 2: point here, So we get we got no models for it.
Speaker 2: You know, all we got is models for instigators. The
Speaker 2: professional agitators. Professional agitators are everywhere. They're not a majority,
Speaker 2: but the there's enough of the agitators out there, they
Speaker 2: get tend to get a lot more of attraction.
Speaker 1: How would you define a professional agitative just for people
Speaker 1: to I totally agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's it's those in the media that are
Speaker 2: clickbait oriented, agitation oriented. It's highly profitable short term. You know,
Speaker 2: you're you're getting advertising dollars based on how many views,
Speaker 2: how many clicks you're getting, and it's so overwhelming, and
Speaker 2: we're so tired of it. The other thing, we're so
Speaker 2: tired of it. You know. One of the things that
Speaker 2: I'm most fascinated with right now is you know the
Speaker 2: hot tool girl Like. People are so tired of negativity
Speaker 2: that anything that's like positive and fun and refreshing and
Speaker 2: catches them off guard. I checked their Instagram today, she
Speaker 2: got like two million followers with thirty six posts and
Speaker 2: she's been there for fifteen minutes. But I think it's
Speaker 2: we have such an appetite for something that's not negative
Speaker 2: and not designed to be agitating, and a very small
Speaker 2: number of agitators can turn a peaceful demonstration into a
Speaker 2: raging mob, and so then they get clicks over that,
Speaker 2: And most of our media is guilty of that. You know,
Speaker 2: nobody's got neither the left nor the right has a
Speaker 2: monopoly on agitation. So Fox is guilty of it, CNN
Speaker 2: is guilty of it, and they get short term profits,
Speaker 2: they get a lot of clicks, they get a lot
Speaker 2: of views. So I think we're not we're not seeing
Speaker 2: the summaries, we're not seeing the demonstration of understanding. But
Speaker 2: in reality it accelerates us to a positive outcome by
Speaker 2: probably about a rate of about fourteen times faster. And
Speaker 2: it's invisible. It's astonishing, and so since it was invisible,
Speaker 2: we didn't really see it when it happened. One of
Speaker 2: the guys on my team, Derek Gaunt, wrote a book
Speaker 2: called About Leadership. Applying tactical empathy to leadership is called
Speaker 2: the ego authority Failure. He's got a great stat at
Speaker 2: the very beginning of it, where rapport based interviews in
Speaker 2: law enforcement gets you to an agreement slash confession fourteen
Speaker 2: times faster than anything else, but nobody knows it happened.
Speaker 2: So then to get good at it, you're never going
Speaker 2: to get congratulated in the moment. That's the other thing.
Speaker 2: It's in the moment. It's not that satisfying very much,
Speaker 2: the way the slot machines are satisfying in Vegas. You know,
Speaker 2: you lose eighty three at eighty four times on those
Speaker 2: slot machines, but the winds are so satisfying that's all
Speaker 2: you notice. So to be really good at this, you
Speaker 2: focus more on how suddenly we're in a better place,
Speaker 2: and nobody's congratulating you because they didn't see it happened.
Speaker 2: So it really has to be intrinsically self satisfying. The
Speaker 2: reward is getting it done faster and better. Very few
Speaker 2: people are going to congratulate you on it in the moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the only mindset shift we need,
Speaker 1: is that if we want a real resolution, we want
Speaker 1: to feel like we've really accomplished thing, we're really moving forward.
Speaker 1: It requires us to move from that point of view
Speaker 1: of if we negotiate effectively, If I take time to
Speaker 1: summarize the other person's opinion and they take the time
Speaker 1: to do mine, we're actually going to get somewhere, even
Speaker 1: if it's a slower process, even if it's a harder process.
Speaker 1: How do you prepare for a negotiation? Because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of us also think great, I'm going to
Speaker 1: walk in there, I'm going to try to figure it out.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say something, But walk us through how
Speaker 1: you'd prepare for some of the biggest negotiations in your life.
Speaker 1: What do they look like?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna I'm going to think of how I
Speaker 2: would summarize their perspective. That's going to that's going to
Speaker 2: get really get my wheels turn, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: get a lot of clues. How do they see things.
Speaker 2: I've done it enough that it's almost become second nature.
Speaker 2: You got to do it a lot. Like anything else,
Speaker 2: it simply requires practice. There's this magic hack for life
Speaker 2: called gratitude. It's amazing what a difference it could make,
Speaker 2: and it sounds stupid. I was once in a highly
Speaker 2: adversarial negotiation. The other side was it wasn an adversary
Speaker 2: the other side was very deceptive, which is one of
Speaker 2: my buttons. You know, I don't like deception. One of
Speaker 2: my main currencies is integrity, so that's a violation of
Speaker 2: one of my core values. But thinking that put me
Speaker 2: in a very negative place, and I thought, well, how
Speaker 2: do I get into this in the first place. The
Speaker 2: only reason they're trying so hard to do this deal
Speaker 2: with us is because we're good. It was a training
Speaker 2: company that wanted to make our training offering part of
Speaker 2: their platform. So I thought, this is a byproduct this success.
Speaker 2: I'm actually lucky to even be having this conversation. So
Speaker 2: you know, I found gratitude in a moment, and then
Speaker 2: it opened up my mind because you're thirty one percent positive,
Speaker 2: smarter in a positive frame of mind. So you know,
Speaker 2: whatever your hack is, and different people have different waysitude, exercise,
Speaker 2: first thing in the morning, meditation, whatever you could do
Speaker 2: to clear out your natural negative survival mechanism so that
Speaker 2: you can be more appreciative of life. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the ways. And then if I think about that,
Speaker 2: then I can summarize your perspective. And another thing that
Speaker 2: I'll usually do is I'll think of the questions that
Speaker 2: I might normally ask to elicity yes, and I'll switch
Speaker 2: them so that I'm alictiting a no, do you agree
Speaker 2: becomes do you disagree? There's a Pavlovian response to yes
Speaker 2: and no. People if they say yes, they feel like
Speaker 2: they're being led into a trap. Whether they are or not,
Speaker 2: it doesn't change the fact that is a general term.
Speaker 2: Somebody's trying to trap you. Who's gonna litter that path
Speaker 2: with yeses?
Speaker 1: So when you say something that does not make sense
Speaker 1: and they say yes, that's moving in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: Well it's it's going to trigger that Pavlovian response. Because
Speaker 2: the person that cheated him said something to the effect
Speaker 2: of would you like something for free? Would you like
Speaker 2: to make more money? Would you like to live in
Speaker 2: a big house on a hill? And that led him
Speaker 2: into a trap previously. So it doesn't matter that you
Speaker 2: were you have integrity, it doesn't matter that you are
Speaker 2: not doing it. It got done to them enough times already,
Speaker 2: they're going to have a negative reaction. The ridiculous flip
Speaker 2: side is the Pavlovian response to saying no is that
Speaker 2: people feel predicted. They feel safe when they say no.
Speaker 2: Would you like no? When my son was a teenager, Dad,
Speaker 2: can I know? But then I'm looking back on I
Speaker 2: realized every time I said no, I felt all right.
Speaker 2: So I walled myself off from being walked into anything here,
Speaker 2: and I would look back at him say, okay, so
Speaker 2: now what was it that you wanted? Now I could
Speaker 2: hear more. Haven't protected myself. So I may say to you,
Speaker 2: you know, look, does this sound like a stupid idea?
Speaker 2: And then you won't have been triggered, and you'll listen
Speaker 2: to me. You'll actually to some degree listening with a
Speaker 2: critical mindset, and you'll think, well, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: have any problem with that, but your follow on is
Speaker 2: actually what's important. Now. I don't think it's a stupid idea,
Speaker 2: but I think here are some things that I want
Speaker 2: you to think about. You'll give me those freely. Now
Speaker 2: we're in an actual collaboration. So your original prep at question,
Speaker 2: how do I prep for negotiation? I'm gonna try to
Speaker 2: do what I can't. Put myself in a positive frame
Speaker 2: of mind, work at summarizing the other side's perspective. Think
Speaker 2: of a couple questions where the answers know where it
Speaker 2: moves things forward, as opposed to the yes and I've
Speaker 2: avoided that psychological feeling of the other side feeling I'm
Speaker 2: trapping them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are the things to do. What are some
Speaker 1: of the biggest mistakes you've seen people make walking in
Speaker 1: preparing for a negotiation.
Speaker 2: Well, the inadvertent thing to start off with is, you know,
Speaker 2: number one, they're gonna they're gonna ask you yes, I'm
Speaker 2: any question, and then number two, they're gonna make their
Speaker 2: pitch the value proposition. You know, you know, I got
Speaker 2: to tell you what's valuable here. Now that's important, but
Speaker 2: you're out of order on the sequence because the other
Speaker 2: side's dying to have their say too. If you go first,
Speaker 2: you kind of rolled over. Well, the whole time you're going,
Speaker 2: they're thinking, but I got something I want to say,
Speaker 2: I got something I want to say. It's a voice
Speaker 2: in the back of their head which is interfering in
Speaker 2: them listening to you. So I'm gonna start out by
Speaker 2: trying to hear you out first. I'm gonna want the
Speaker 2: information from you. I'm gonna want your perspective. I'm also
Speaker 2: gonna want to know what you think is important going
Speaker 2: into this conversation. Let's say we're collaborating to do a deal,
Speaker 2: or you and I are significant others and we want
Speaker 2: to go with something to eat. I'm going to want
Speaker 2: to know what's on your mind first, because that's your
Speaker 2: a priority for you. Then I'm going to know on
Speaker 2: my list what matches up with what you want instead
Speaker 2: of maybe I start out with something that's number one
Speaker 2: on my list, but it's number nine on yours. Now
Speaker 2: you're distracted by the other eight things that you think
Speaker 2: are important. I'm going to try to dial into you
Speaker 2: as quickly as I can because I want to talk
Speaker 2: about what you think is important because that starts our collaboration.
Speaker 2: So really understanding where the other side is coming from
Speaker 2: is information you need for the analyst and for the
Speaker 2: relationship oriented person. Make sure the person feel good so
Speaker 2: you're building a relationship.
Speaker 1: Have you had I'm sure in your experience you've been
Speaker 1: speaking to such incoherent individuals on the other side that
Speaker 1: there isn't a one to nine on their list. There's
Speaker 1: like a a right like it's topsy turvy because they're
Speaker 1: not coming at it from a logical rational. A lot
Speaker 1: of the people sometimes when we're negotiating, we feel like
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Like what language are you
Speaker 1: speaking in and we can feel that even with our partners.
Speaker 1: People can feel that at work where it's just like
Speaker 1: I'm talking to a toxic individual who has no idea
Speaker 1: what they want. They're so off the rocker. Like you know,
Speaker 1: when you're speaking to someone on the other side who
Speaker 1: you actually can't figure out, and you're feeling like, I
Speaker 1: can't even read this person, how do you navigate that?
Speaker 2: Well, I liberate myself from the idea of rationality or logic.
Speaker 2: I really see those two things as beauty. Beauty is
Speaker 2: in the air of the beholder, and so when I
Speaker 2: let go of that, and then I think in terms
Speaker 2: of patterns and then other than someone who's actually paranoid, schizophrenic,
Speaker 2: whether wiring is actually wrong, and someone who's offering from
Speaker 2: or Layman's terms wiring issues versus chemical issues what we
Speaker 2: used to refer to as manic, depressive or bipolar. You know,
Speaker 2: they change those terms all the time. Those are principally
Speaker 2: chemical imbalances, paranoids, gizophrenic. If somebody's actually hearing voices, it's
Speaker 2: a problem, but you don't know what the voices are saying.
Speaker 2: That those people are in fact unpredictable. They manifest themselves
Speaker 2: very rarely in hostage negotiation. We also found out that unfortunately,
Speaker 2: one of the downsides of being a meth addict. Someone
Speaker 2: could be clean for years, but meth amphetamines does actual
Speaker 2: damage to the wiring and they'll have an episode when
Speaker 2: they've been sober for years that mimics of paranoids gizophrenic.
Speaker 2: So the people that are actually messed up in that
Speaker 2: fashion are very rare. Mostly it's chemical imbalance. And if
Speaker 2: you look at it like that, and then you say,
Speaker 2: all right, so the patterns here. Let me look for
Speaker 2: the patterns, and then they're evidently predictable if you let
Speaker 2: go of the judgment that it's rational or irrational and
Speaker 2: you just start looking for patterns and then listening for them. Now,
Speaker 2: they could be so upset with negative emotions that they
Speaker 2: are in a state of confusion, very much like the
Speaker 2: guy they called in on a hotline that night. So
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm gonna sort of pick off the negativity
Speaker 2: one at a time, and I'm gonna feed it back,
Speaker 2: and I know that's going to clear your head. In
Speaker 2: a business scenario or even a personal scenario, people who
Speaker 2: feel under a tremendous amount of pressure, tend to be
Speaker 2: very demanding and can be very attacking, which feels predatory.
Speaker 2: It even feels like, you know, the magic phrase gas lighting,
Speaker 2: when in fact they're under a massive amount of pressure.
Speaker 2: A company that I just did some training for coaching
Speaker 2: and training. They're based out of the Middle East, but
Speaker 2: their executives are international in nature, and they happen to
Speaker 2: be in a discussion in a deal in South Africa
Speaker 2: and the person on the other side of the table
Speaker 2: they called a bully, very attacking, not sticking to the
Speaker 2: written agreement. So of course they're in the negotiation. The
Speaker 2: lawyer's on the table side that I'm coaching. What's the
Speaker 2: lawyer going to do. It's going to open his laptop.
Speaker 2: He's going to read you the agreement, which does not help.
Speaker 2: It's a great way to pour gasoline on a fire.
Speaker 2: Let me remind you of what our agreement says, thinking
Speaker 2: that would help. So the guy. Now, the guy gets
Speaker 2: worse and he starts adding profanity and telling him that
Speaker 2: he's going to rewrite the agreement. They keep their poise,
Speaker 2: and when you're being attacked that much, if you don't
Speaker 2: come up with a great thing to say, the most graceful.
Speaker 2: The smartest move is the witcherw quietly. So the lead said,
Speaker 2: it's probably not a good time for this discussion. We'll
Speaker 2: be happy to leave. Guy settles down a little bit.
Speaker 2: They hit him with a couple of labels. They get
Speaker 2: to a good place in a conversation, but then on
Speaker 2: the way out, he says to the guy, sounds like
Speaker 2: you're under a lot of pressure. And a guy completely relaxed,
Speaker 2: he says, oh man, he says, you don't understand what's
Speaker 2: going on over here. I've got all these demands, I
Speaker 2: got people coming at me from all sides. And the
Speaker 2: recognition of the pressure that this sounds like you're under
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure for someone he perceived as an attacking,
Speaker 2: gas lighting bully, the guy's being driven by an internal
Speaker 2: pressure that he was having trouble keeping control over. And
Speaker 2: that changed everything. That off fan label and it turned
Speaker 2: everything around.
Speaker 1: Can you negotiate with a narcissist.
Speaker 2: If you look for the patterns and then you know
Speaker 2: the narcissists of demanding So short answer is yes, But
Speaker 2: how are you going to do it? You got to
Speaker 2: make what you want the path to where they want
Speaker 2: to get. Ultimately, narcisists are self centered, so let them
Speaker 2: be self centered or whatever it is that they're after.
Speaker 2: Make your want a step on the journey to their goal.
Speaker 2: And if you can change the sequencing around, that's how
Speaker 2: you can get the upper hand on a narcissist.
Speaker 1: One of the.
Speaker 2: Of course, you can negotiate with a narcissist if you've
Speaker 2: been trained by the Black Swan group Chris Voss. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'll train you, we'll teach you.
Speaker 1: It's whether you want to or not. It's whether you
Speaker 1: want to negotiate with a narcissist in your life.
Speaker 2: Well, and actually that's a great secondary point because this
Speaker 2: is going to be repetitive behavior. One of the things
Speaker 2: we advise people to do is terminate the relationship. You know,
Speaker 2: are they dragging you down? You can do a couple
Speaker 2: of things to try to The psychologists of therapists would
Speaker 2: call a boundary setting. Sometimes you set a good hard
Speaker 2: boundary and the other side says, oh, I respect that
Speaker 2: they're looking for you to set gently, not aggressively. They're
Speaker 2: looking for that boundary. Set a couple of boundaries gently,
Speaker 2: politely but firmly, and find out if they're going to
Speaker 2: straighten up. Then you can continue the relationship, you make
Speaker 2: an attempt to sent the boundaries a couple of gentle attempts.
Speaker 2: They don't pay any attention to it, whether it's personal
Speaker 2: or professional. That's a preview the future. You don't need
Speaker 2: to be. You don't need to be attached to that.
Speaker 2: You're not going to be who God puts you here
Speaker 2: to be by being attached to people that drag you down.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of us do that for
Speaker 2: good intention, very good reason, and we're not required to
Speaker 2: continue once, you know, be willing to be smarter today
Speaker 2: than you were yesterday.
Speaker 1: Do we ignore the patons? Is that what it is?
Speaker 2: I think we do. I think a lot of us
Speaker 2: do for again, for different reasons. The relationship pointed people
Speaker 2: the accommodators, they're very hope based and they have this
Speaker 2: tremendous faith and hope, so to speak. And there's a
Speaker 2: lot of feedback in that. You know, I think the
Speaker 2: world is largely a very supportive place. If the world
Speaker 2: wasn't largely on our side, we wouldn't have continued as
Speaker 2: a species. We'd be dead, we'd go on extinct. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not the most durable. You know, we don't. We
Speaker 2: don't have, uh, you know, a fair fight with most
Speaker 2: of the predators on a planet, which is what God
Speaker 2: gave us, we'd lose most of the time. So that
Speaker 2: means that I'm a firm believer that the world is
Speaker 2: largely very supposed supportive and on our side. So that
Speaker 2: reinforces the accommodators because the numbers are on their side.
Speaker 2: They're just not real good in the anywhere from ten
Speaker 2: to thirty percent of the people that are that are
Speaker 2: that are situations that are harmful, So we have reason
Speaker 2: for sticking in there and then allowing wisdom to get
Speaker 2: as smarter as we go, then we eliminate more and
Speaker 2: more of the people that are dragging ustaff.
Speaker 1: If you feel like you're one of those people that
Speaker 1: people always take advantage of, I can imagine a lot
Speaker 1: of people that are listening may feel like they've been
Speaker 1: an accommodated but now they've started to feel like people
Speaker 1: always take advantage of me. I feel used. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm the one who's always getting the short end
Speaker 1: of the stick. Like, how do you shift that pattern
Speaker 1: for your life? Because you've now made people believe that
Speaker 1: that's who you are, and all of a sudden Now
Speaker 1: you want to change who you are? How do you
Speaker 1: go about that transition and shift and help the way
Speaker 1: so that you no longer feel that everyone's taking advantage
Speaker 1: of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the healthy way to start with is first to
Speaker 2: recognition is that you're not really helping them. You know,
Speaker 2: if they're taking an advantage of you, you're effectively a crutch.
Speaker 2: And nobody becomes their best self by leaning on a crutch.
Speaker 2: So not only you're not helping yourself, you're not really
Speaker 2: helping them to do the best for them is to
Speaker 2: let them get out there and fend on their own,
Speaker 2: you know, let them deal with it. They need, they
Speaker 2: need to deal with reality. You're not helping them by
Speaker 2: letting them lean on you. All right, So let's say
Speaker 2: you're willing to accept that. Now, how do you how
Speaker 2: do you get out of it? And again, I'm going
Speaker 2: to refer it to one of my negotiation heroes, Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 2: I'm in a discussion with one of her top executives,
Speaker 2: and I was telling this executive, Yeah, our philosophy is
Speaker 2: the last impression is the lasting and pression, so always
Speaker 2: end positively, no matter what, but end, And she said, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's exactly Oprah's philosophy, and she says, in the entertainment industry,
Speaker 2: it's usually in an alemo out a taxi. With Oprah,
Speaker 2: it's in an alemo out almo. No matter what, at
Speaker 2: the end of any relationship, we have to make people
Speaker 2: remind them that we love them and that we value them,
Speaker 2: and then we have to effectively we might need to
Speaker 2: part company. And I'm having a conversation, confrontational confrontation. Oprah
Speaker 2: Winfrey has taking people to the woodshed, but she does
Speaker 2: it in such a positive way and a way that
Speaker 2: she underscores to them that they feel valued, that they're
Speaker 2: okay with it. In this conversation, she finishes by saying, like,
Speaker 2: whatever you do is your decision, and I want you
Speaker 2: to know that if you decide not to participate in
Speaker 2: this interview, I will always love you, I will always
Speaker 2: be supportive of you, I will always have your back.
Speaker 2: And so that was her way of saying, it's my
Speaker 2: way of the highway, and if you choose the highway,
Speaker 2: I'm still on your side, but we are going to
Speaker 2: part company at this point in time. And finding a
Speaker 2: way to gently say enough, should you ever change your mind,
Speaker 2: I'm here for you, and then what's wrong?
Speaker 1: And that's it always feels hard to do that because
Speaker 1: somewhay deep down inside of us, we don't want it
Speaker 1: to be the end of the road. We don't want
Speaker 1: to We want to be hopeful. We want to save,
Speaker 1: we want to caum the date, we want to mold,
Speaker 1: we want to become whatever the other person needs us
Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, we keep doing that, We keep shape shifting.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The desire to take yourself and them to a
Speaker 2: higher existence, to a higher level of being, to you know,
Speaker 2: to to make the unique and amazing dent in the
Speaker 2: universe that each one of us is capable of doing.
Speaker 2: And we love bringing that out on other people. It's
Speaker 2: very they think.
Speaker 1: I'm sure when people meet you they feel like they
Speaker 1: can learn from you how to control a situation. But
Speaker 1: you don't strike me as someone who believes that is
Speaker 1: the way it ever goes that that's what you're trying
Speaker 1: to teach. But I can imagine people come up to you,
Speaker 1: and companies come up to and be like Chris, basically
Speaker 1: show us how to control this in our favor.
Speaker 2: Some do yeah, yeah again, about a third you know,
Speaker 2: the assertives love control.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you reframe someone who comes with that
Speaker 1: controlling mindset, who thinks that you can control. I've had
Speaker 1: I've had coaching clients, so I don't coach in what
Speaker 1: you do, but I've even had clients like Jay, teach
Speaker 1: me the right thing to say? Like you always feel
Speaker 1: like you know the right thing to say? Can you
Speaker 1: teach me how to say that to someone in my
Speaker 1: life so that they do what I want? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's That's not how it's going.
Speaker 2: To go right exactly all right. So the secret to
Speaker 2: gaining the upper hand in the negotiation is given the
Speaker 2: other side the illusion to control, and then people will
Speaker 2: say like, oh, that's better than control, So that may
Speaker 2: be one of the things that cracks them open. Another
Speaker 2: thing is control is highly inefficient time wise. Like let's
Speaker 2: say I could control you completely, I gonna be with
Speaker 2: you all the time to do that. You know, I
Speaker 2: could control maybe one person. I can positively influence a
Speaker 2: lot of people if I give up the need for control,
Speaker 2: because I'm gonna need you to be self directed. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna need you to be able to think for yourself.
Speaker 2: There's gonna be a point in time when we're not together.
Speaker 2: If I'm not there to control you, you're gonna fall apart.
Speaker 2: But if I collaborate with you, if I empower you
Speaker 2: when I'm not there, you're gonna think for yourself. As
Speaker 2: a phrase, batteries included, so to speak, which has been
Speaker 2: passed on to me by some very smart people. Any
Speaker 2: people who are batteries included, we all need partners that
Speaker 2: are batteries included. We're aligned on core values and we
Speaker 2: get more because I don't have time to control everybody.
Speaker 2: So when you start understanding the costs of control, then
Speaker 2: you start thinking like, yeah, you know, there's got to
Speaker 2: be a better way. And it's guidance. It's helping people think,
Speaker 2: it's making them feel empowered to find the right outcome.
Speaker 1: You talk about mirroring as being a really good technique
Speaker 1: in trying to get to that collaborative same page space.
Speaker 1: How do you do that in an authentic, genuine way.
Speaker 1: Is negotiation ever genuine and authentic or is it always
Speaker 1: three steps ahead? Three moves ahead?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, great question. The negotiation skills and tools are neutral.
Speaker 2: So intention has a smell. Am I trying to collaborate
Speaker 2: with you? Am I trying to take advantage of you
Speaker 2: a scalpel, and one person's hands saves a life. In
Speaker 2: another person's hands, it takes a life. So first of all,
Speaker 2: look at effectively negotiation skills. Which emotional intelligence is effective negotiation,
Speaker 2: Tactical empathy is effective negotiation. What's your intention? Like, my
Speaker 2: intention is for us to have a great, long term relationship,
Speaker 2: highly profitable through the infinity. And if somebody's arguing with me,
Speaker 2: I'll say, like, look all right, so I would love
Speaker 2: for this moment to be something that we look back
Speaker 2: on ten years from now, This argument we look back
Speaker 2: on on ten years from now as to the moment
Speaker 2: we discovered collaboration and made both of us prosper for
Speaker 2: ten years. That's also changing somebody's frame from short term
Speaker 2: to long term to what's my intention? And my intention
Speaker 2: is long term collaboration. Like there's some sales methodologies that
Speaker 2: say your money's in their pocket, it's your job to
Speaker 2: get it out. That's not longtime collaboration. And you're gonna
Speaker 2: sense that, Like, no matter how charming I am in
Speaker 2: a moment, no matter how much fun I am to
Speaker 2: be with, no matter how much I make you laugh,
Speaker 2: you're gonna notice the diminishment of your pocket before long.
Speaker 2: And this is coming to an end. So if my
Speaker 2: attention is dead, is for this to be great, for
Speaker 2: us to have a ball, for this to be this
Speaker 2: adventure that we both benefit from. Now you're gonna even
Speaker 2: if you say, oh, that was a label. I heard
Speaker 2: that before, or you just used a mirror on me.
Speaker 2: You know you asked me about mirrors. That was a mirror,
Speaker 2: then you're not gonna mind, because I'm trying to take
Speaker 2: you to a better place.
Speaker 1: Let's take a scenario like, let's say someone's negotiating for
Speaker 1: a promotion or a higher salary. Let's go down that
Speaker 1: road and act out what that would look like.
Speaker 2: So I'm doing a training for a company probably about
Speaker 2: two three years ago, got the CEO and all those
Speaker 2: top salespeople on a zoom call. We get to Q
Speaker 2: and A, and one of them says, how do I
Speaker 2: negotiate a better salary? Bosses said listening, and I said,
Speaker 2: ask him this question, how can I be guaranteed to
Speaker 2: be involved in projects that are critical to the strategic
Speaker 2: future of this organization? And he interrupts immediately, and I says,
Speaker 2: I wish everybody here had ask me that question. So
Speaker 2: the job negotiation is really about our future collaboratively now,
Speaker 2: as much as you'd love for it to be about
Speaker 2: what your contribution up to now has been. Your contribution
Speaker 2: up to now, your boss is going to see that
Speaker 2: you're even Here's what I asked you to do, is
Speaker 2: what I agreed to pay you for doing it. Here
Speaker 2: we are you did it, I paid you even. That's
Speaker 2: how your boss is gonna say it. Your boss worried
Speaker 2: about the future, worried about his own future, her own future,
Speaker 2: worried about the organization's future. If you shift to how
Speaker 2: do I make everybody successful? But not just in our
Speaker 2: routine stuff and the most important stuff here, you show
Speaker 2: them two things. You're a team player. You're going to
Speaker 2: put the team first. And you want the high profile stuff.
Speaker 2: You want to play in a championship. Your goal is
Speaker 2: to win a championship. My goal isn't to win a
Speaker 2: scoring title. My goal is to win a team championship. Now,
Speaker 2: suddenly it's about the future, a prosperous future. Like what
Speaker 2: I mentioned before, we're now negotiating a prosperous future together
Speaker 2: that changes everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean just hearing you say that,
Speaker 1: I was like the amount of times in my head
Speaker 1: I'm thinking as a leader, like I want people to
Speaker 1: focus on business critical activities, Like I want people to
Speaker 1: report to me on things that are like actually critical
Speaker 1: to impact and having an effect and moving the needle
Speaker 1: as opposed to, Yeah, we're doing the you know, we're
Speaker 1: doing the little stuff. Everyone needs to do it. But
Speaker 1: as a leader, you want your team to be focused
Speaker 1: on and moving towards those bigger things. Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: hard because me included when I was an employee too.
Speaker 1: It's you want to be rewarded for your effort. You
Speaker 1: just want to be rewarded for your energy and showing
Speaker 1: up and all of these things. But that isn't how
Speaker 1: reward generally works, at least in the workplace.
Speaker 2: Well at the maximum reward, you know, some some reward
Speaker 2: works that way. Yeah, much, that is very valuable, you know,
Speaker 2: can you follow directions? Okay, My girlfriend Wendy, members of
Speaker 2: her family, they got this. They got this great camp
Speaker 2: up state New York, wonderful place, wor up there visiting
Speaker 2: at the end of the season. Every year they bring
Speaker 2: family up and they get together and so they kind
Speaker 2: of they see me as maybe this you know, this
Speaker 2: white collar guy, you know, who never got his hands thirty,
Speaker 2: hadn't been outside, which is is not my background. But
Speaker 2: they're seeing me an FBI agent. You know, he probably
Speaker 2: in white collar. You know, you never got thirty. So
Speaker 2: we're getting ready to get out of there, and a
Speaker 2: gentleman runs it, very generous guy. He says, you know,
Speaker 2: you're welcome back anytime. And so I say, you know,
Speaker 2: I'd come to work for you any day because I
Speaker 2: like to be useful, and he goes, really, come to
Speaker 2: work for me, Huh, what do you know how to do?
Speaker 2: And I looked at him and I said, follow directions
Speaker 2: and he went, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need more people
Speaker 2: like that. So there's a lot to be said for
Speaker 2: following directions, you know, the the mundane routine stuff that
Speaker 2: needs to get done. You'll do well if you're great
Speaker 2: at following directions, but you're not going to make as
Speaker 2: much as you could make to have the maximum impact
Speaker 2: on an organization, as you said, the business critical activities,
Speaker 2: because also you as a leader, you're having trouble keeping
Speaker 2: track of all the business critical activities. You need the
Speaker 2: team seeing stuff that's coming at you, you know, from
Speaker 2: your six that you don't see rolling up on you,
Speaker 2: and you're going to want people on the team to
Speaker 2: understand the day to day and a business critical. So
Speaker 2: when that media comes screaming in and you don't see
Speaker 2: it coming, they catch it for you. And so that's
Speaker 2: what really takes people to the next level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the things I find is
Speaker 1: that as a leader, like I enjoy rewarding people who
Speaker 1: are performing phenomenally. Like it's exciting for me to see
Speaker 1: someone who's performing phenomenally and they're developing themselves and I
Speaker 1: can see that they're proactive and resourceful and they're growth oriented,
Speaker 1: and as a leader, I get excited to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: what can we build together? Like that's my mindset. But
Speaker 1: I had a friend recently who went through a scenario
Speaker 1: where he had gone up to his boss and said,
Speaker 1: I want to work on really important things of the company.
Speaker 1: I want to be associated with the biggest results we have.
Speaker 1: He was told to work on these projects, he went
Speaker 1: and got those results, they promised him a promotion, and
Speaker 1: then two to three months later they went kind of
Speaker 1: quiet on it, and then they said, oh, no, we
Speaker 1: actually don't have it anymore. He's now been at this
Speaker 1: company for two years and he hasn't received a promotion,
Speaker 1: He hasn't received a direction on this is where it's going.
Speaker 1: He's getting in some of the biggest results of the company,
Speaker 1: but he's now not seeing any career growth there and
Speaker 1: he's thinking of leaving. Right, he should leave, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I think his boss is thinking, oh, this guy's going
Speaker 1: to hang around. So in that scenario where you're like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm hitting it. I was promised something,
Speaker 1: it didn't happen. Now I don't how to negotiate that.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to have that conversation. How do
Speaker 1: you navigate that?
Speaker 2: Okay, there's two things. First of all, yeah, it's going
Speaker 2: to happen. One method tactical empathy, emotional intelligence, space negotiation
Speaker 2: doesn't work all the time, just works more than anything
Speaker 2: else does, which means there has to be an acceptance
Speaker 2: of occasionally it'll fail. Hostage negotiators got a ninety three
Speaker 2: percent success rate. People are not going to make the
Speaker 2: deal we call seven percenters. They're going to happen. So
Speaker 2: you move on now. Before if somebody's promised you something
Speaker 2: and they failed on their promise, that you earned this
Speaker 2: is all also an indicator of a company that's got
Speaker 2: culture problems, they got leadership problems, they got management problems.
Speaker 2: A long time ago, I heard the stat forty percent
Speaker 2: of the fortune five hundred is going to be gone
Speaker 2: in ten years. Those kinds of problems are going the
Speaker 2: way of the Dodo. They're going extinct. So your time
Speaker 2: there is coming to an end, whether you like it
Speaker 2: or not. They're going to go out of business, they're
Speaker 2: going to get sold. They're going to think of a
Speaker 2: stupid reason for firing you. Except that that timeframe now
Speaker 2: has its limits. If someone has failed to keep a
Speaker 2: promise that they should have kept, so that acceptance is
Speaker 2: am I going to go someplace? Elf? Start looking for
Speaker 2: someplace else because you've just added to your resume. You've
Speaker 2: made yourself more employable with these accomplishments for somebody who's
Speaker 2: dying to employ you, who's going to keep their word,
Speaker 2: They're going to keep their core values. If they lie
Speaker 2: to you, if they fail to keep a promise with you,
Speaker 2: that's the way they do business, they are going out
Speaker 2: of business. There is a problem. You've just been alerted
Speaker 2: to the problem. Now, short term interim how you potentially
Speaker 2: try to write to the ship before you get out
Speaker 2: no oriented question again, I'd sit down with the boss.
Speaker 2: I'd say, I'm sure that I seem very selfish and
Speaker 2: that I seem ignorant of the pressures that you're under
Speaker 2: and unappreciative of them. Do you want us to fail? No? Right? So? No, no,
Speaker 2: no no. Why what are you talking about? If you
Speaker 2: make it impossible for me to stay? How am I
Speaker 2: supposed to stay? How am I supposed to stay? If
Speaker 2: you've made promises to me, I've fulfilled my end of
Speaker 2: the bargain, and you're showing me that I was wasting
Speaker 2: my time. You know, it's a way of letting people
Speaker 2: see reality before you can be assertive. And this is
Speaker 2: being assertive, not aggressive, but assertive. You got to be empathic,
Speaker 2: should demonstrate some understanding where they're coming from. Ask the
Speaker 2: no oriented question, which is a way to trigger decision
Speaker 2: making in a non threatening way and let them know
Speaker 2: what the reality is. Reality. The situation is you can't
Speaker 2: count on a leader that doesn't keep their promises to you.
Speaker 2: You want to get to that moment with the conversation.
Speaker 2: You got to get there gently. How do you get
Speaker 2: there gently? Demonstrating and appreciation and an understanding of the
Speaker 2: other side's point of view. Give them a chance, give
Speaker 2: one clear chance to make things right. Let them know
Speaker 2: the reality of the situation is. You can't stay in
Speaker 2: a job where they're not going to keep their promises,
Speaker 2: even if you want to keep that job. How you
Speaker 2: do anything is how you do everything. They're breaking promises
Speaker 2: to you, they're breaking promises to everybody else. You're going
Speaker 2: to be tainted by their reputation and you're going to
Speaker 2: be taken down when as the Titanic hit an iceberg,
Speaker 2: that ship's getting ready to hit an iceberg and it's
Speaker 2: going to sink.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that resonates, and that kind of like
Speaker 1: a when you've been hard done by. That approach feels
Speaker 1: like you're having to turn up the dial on. You're
Speaker 1: starting off empathetic, but then there is a turn up
Speaker 1: on like, well, this is the reality. Here's the reality,
Speaker 1: is the real of the situation. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a really powerful approach. So, Chris, of course you're aware
Speaker 1: of the agender pay gap, women paid less. What are
Speaker 1: women doing wrong or what can they do better in negotiation?
Speaker 1: What needs to change? Of course there's a systemic issue,
Speaker 1: but individually, individually.
Speaker 2: So I would answer this is if the woman asking
Speaker 2: that question was my daughter and she was asking me
Speaker 2: about a relationship and she said, Dad, I'm in a
Speaker 2: relationship with a guy who's beating me. How do I
Speaker 2: get them to treat me better? And my answer is
Speaker 2: get out of that relationship, all right. So paying any
Speaker 2: talent less than what they're worth is a bad core value,
Speaker 2: a bad culture value. And you're working someplace that's going
Speaker 2: to go out of business, So this relationship is coming
Speaker 2: to an end. My advice, my guidance, is the same
Speaker 2: as it would be for any other job negotiation. Talk
Speaker 2: about how you're going to make the best contribution possible.
Speaker 2: Find out what it takes to be successful there, express
Speaker 2: that you want to be paid in a playing a
Speaker 2: big game. So what you're doing, if you're working in
Speaker 2: a place is going to pay you less because of
Speaker 2: your gender. You're patting your resume. There's somebody out that
Speaker 2: wants talent, and they don't care anything about your gender,
Speaker 2: they don't care anything about your demographics. They want talent.
Speaker 2: You're in a relationship, You're in a bad relationship. And
Speaker 2: because it's a bad value to pay talent less then
Speaker 2: it's coming to an end one way or the other,
Speaker 2: just the same way as it's a boyfriend who's if
Speaker 2: he's not physically abusive, he's at least verbally abusive. That's
Speaker 2: coming to an end. Prepare yourself to move on. There
Speaker 2: are people that want talent, and in my company, I
Speaker 2: don't care, I want talent. We're not the only ones
Speaker 2: that are out there. There are a lot of companies
Speaker 2: that are taking advantage of women. The sooner you leave them,
Speaker 2: the better off everybody is. Find the company that values
Speaker 2: your contribute and moved to it.
Speaker 1: Nice advice. Great, tell us about some of your seven
Speaker 1: percent experiences that you said the ninety three percent in
Speaker 1: the seven percent. Tell us about have you some of
Speaker 1: your personal experiences have been in the seven percent when
Speaker 1: it's not working.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're actually far more common than I ever imagined
Speaker 2: would be in a business world like that. When when
Speaker 2: I wrote Never Split the Difference with Tall Raz and
Speaker 2: my son Brandon Voss, tremendous contributor to the book, it
Speaker 2: never occurred to me that there would be a lot
Speaker 2: of negotiations where the other side had no intention of
Speaker 2: consummating a deal. And we call that now proof of life.
Speaker 2: Is there a deal and is to deal with you?
Speaker 2: Maybe there's a deal, it just ain't with you. Maybe
Speaker 2: they're just kicking the tires. Maybe they're just looking for
Speaker 2: free consulting. And I started to wake up to that
Speaker 2: and this is what falls into this category seven percenterg
Speaker 2: somebody's never going to make the deal. Right after I
Speaker 2: got out, started talking about negotiating and a gentleman who
Speaker 2: wrote a book I think, I think it it was
Speaker 2: bare knuckle bargaining, and he's talking about this thing in
Speaker 2: business called the rabbit, where you're the rabbit. You just
Speaker 2: said to drive the price down on the people that
Speaker 2: are really going to get the deal. And I remember
Speaker 2: at the time thinking like, no, that's that's I'm a
Speaker 2: time as money guy. That's a tremendous waste of time.
Speaker 2: Why would I ever engage in a negotiation with someone
Speaker 2: if I wasn't going to make the deal. I thought
Speaker 2: it was something from a Vince Vaughan movie, you know.
Speaker 2: I thought that's too stupid. And so we started discussing
Speaker 2: it with sales teams and one guy says, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's in a Challenger sale. It's in that book. It's
Speaker 2: twenty percent twenty percent of the time. It's not seven
Speaker 2: percent of the time, it's twenty percent of the time.
Speaker 2: And in the book they did, they basically take a
Speaker 2: survey of a thousand executives and basically say how often
Speaker 2: do you engauge in a negotiation where you're never going
Speaker 2: to make the deal with the other side for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: You're just not going to give them the deal? And
Speaker 2: a business executive is admitted to twenty percent, which means
Speaker 2: that number's got to be low because they ask people
Speaker 2: how often do you lie? And they're not going to
Speaker 2: exaggerate how often they lie, They're going to underestimate. And
Speaker 2: so we started implementing the methodology on a regular basis.
Speaker 2: We see it all the time. Some of it is
Speaker 2: a due diligence issue. The Black Swan Group, we have
Speaker 2: a reputation deserved for teaching a business negotiation methodology that
Speaker 2: is more successful than anything else. Why would a company
Speaker 2: talk to us, Well, they've got an education provider they're
Speaker 2: going to stick with. So what they want to do
Speaker 2: is they want to get all the free consulting possible
Speaker 2: out of us so that we get this all the time.
Speaker 2: Tell us you know, tell us how you do what
Speaker 2: you do. You know, give us some insight. You know,
Speaker 2: how can we hire you if we don't know how
Speaker 2: you're going to do it. That's a tell of somebody
Speaker 2: who's pumping us for information. They're going to want us
Speaker 2: to get you. If you just tell us everything, then
Speaker 2: we'll hire you. Not only if you tell us everything
Speaker 2: what we hire you, we'll refer you to people that
Speaker 2: will hire you. Know, they paint this vision of riches,
Speaker 2: you know. I call it being taken hostage to the
Speaker 2: future prosperity that never materializes. We kind of cooperated a
Speaker 2: little bit in the early days, but now we just
Speaker 2: we get back to this saying like, all right, so
Speaker 2: I'm gonna see what's important to you and if you're
Speaker 2: really focused on one specific aspect. If I sense that
Speaker 2: you're not focused on a long term relationship, you're a
Speaker 2: seven percent. And then what am I gonna do? I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do. I'm gonna go all Oprah Winfrey on you.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say some really positive, very true things. We'd
Speaker 2: love to be the negotiation provider for you that gives
Speaker 2: your company prosperity that you've never seen before. And when
Speaker 2: you're willing to make a commitment to us. Come back,
Speaker 2: We'll make a commitment to you. Yeah, and they usually go.
Speaker 2: Usually hear crickets on the other end of the line,
Speaker 2: and that's the end of the conversation.
Speaker 1: So, Chris, as a follow up to that, I'm sure
Speaker 1: that for years you've had calls where a company will
Speaker 1: call you and say to you, Chris, we actually want that,
Speaker 1: but we wanted our half the price. And I'm imagining
Speaker 1: that a lot of people who are listening right now,
Speaker 1: whether they're entrepreneurs, whether they have a side hustle, whether
Speaker 1: they do a bit of design work here and there,
Speaker 1: they've had that call as well, where a client calls,
Speaker 1: they want this client, they're excited by it. And I
Speaker 1: want you to tell us the difference between the first
Speaker 1: time a fortune five hundred company reached out and now
Speaker 1: when you're established, because that obviously changes as well. Walk
Speaker 1: us through how do you negotiate or how do you
Speaker 1: deal with you really wanting to work with this client,
Speaker 1: but they're like, we want fifty percent off, Like that's
Speaker 1: what that's our budget, that's our max.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's simply it's accepting that working with them
Speaker 2: and half price is a bad idea. And it's not
Speaker 2: good for the health of the business long term. And
Speaker 2: then as soon as we accepted that, then realizing that
Speaker 2: the less time we spent with people that want half price,
Speaker 2: they're actually obstructing the people that want to pay full price.
Speaker 2: You know, a good friend of mine a phrase that
Speaker 2: we use, Joe Polish. He's got to phrase their half
Speaker 2: clients and their elf clients. Half is hard, annoying, lame
Speaker 2: and frustrating. Elf is easily lucrative and fun. So in
Speaker 2: our in our early days, especially the.
Speaker 1: Two again, that was a brilliant hard.
Speaker 2: Annoying, lame, and frustrating halfs the ELF's easy, lucrative and fun.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: And Joe says, don't work with the halves, work with
Speaker 2: the elves. And I heard this, and and so if
Speaker 2: you're in the early days, if you're working for me,
Speaker 2: you figure that I want you to make every deal.
Speaker 2: And I get with my sales team and I say,
Speaker 2: all right, So the halves are going to have predictable
Speaker 2: behavior once we start looking for it. It's going to
Speaker 2: jump out at us and we'll be able to see
Speaker 2: it in the first half hour of the conversation. Now,
Speaker 2: now they're very good at this and that, of course
Speaker 2: was the truth. And then I said, we're going to
Speaker 2: walk away politely from them early on. I don't want
Speaker 2: you to wasting a lot of time. So the young
Speaker 2: lady that's running my sales team at the time, and
Speaker 2: you know, comment on gender if I may. We find
Speaker 2: out women pick this style of negotiating up faster than men.
Speaker 2: At the top level of performance. We see no difference.
Speaker 2: It's gender agnostic. I believe that the women are conditioned
Speaker 2: at an early age to be aware of soft skills
Speaker 2: and they have a little bit of a head start,
Speaker 2: and that's why they have a tendency to pick it
Speaker 2: up faster than men. So women running the team, she
Speaker 2: wants to make every deal. So before she starts walking
Speaker 2: away from the halves, she starts pulling data. You know,
Speaker 2: you want your sales team to start looking for data.
Speaker 2: How long is it going to take to make the deal?
Speaker 2: How long is it going to take to implement the deal?
Speaker 2: What's our profitability? Consequently, she gets back to me a
Speaker 2: couple weeks later, she says, here's what we found. Number one,
Speaker 2: it takes us two to five times the amount of
Speaker 2: time from the initial conversation to the end of performance
Speaker 2: with a half two to five times as much time.
Speaker 2: So let's say it only takes twice as long. That
Speaker 2: means we've automatically taken a fifty percent cut and pay,
Speaker 2: maybe on top of the discount they wanted, on top
Speaker 2: of everything else. She said. Then consequently, it doesn't really
Speaker 2: matter whether or not we want to do business with
Speaker 2: them again. They don't want to do business with us
Speaker 2: us again so they don't repeat. So these people that
Speaker 2: are demanding discounts, you're taking a fifty percent cut and
Speaker 2: pay at least, and the business is not going to repeat.
Speaker 2: So you're taking a discount theoretically for a long term relationship,
Speaker 2: and you're not getting it. They're not appreciative of the
Speaker 2: fact that they got a discount. They want to take
Speaker 2: advantage of everybody. They're going to look for somebody else
Speaker 2: to victimize after they get done with you, and they
Speaker 2: are standing in the way of the people that want
Speaker 2: to do business with us. It's very dark in the
Speaker 2: early days of an entrepreneur, the concept of walking away
Speaker 2: from customers. It's horrifying. I got to make the rent,
Speaker 2: I got bills. Now you want me to walk away
Speaker 2: from these people? Well, it's going to take you twice
Speaker 2: as long to get paid, so they're not going to
Speaker 2: help you pay the rent now, and they're going to
Speaker 2: be slow payers even if you agree on a deal
Speaker 2: then afterwards getting money out of them. You're not a
Speaker 2: loan business. So there's all these problems. And then as
Speaker 2: soon as we stop dealing with the have we found
Speaker 2: that the elves started showing up. You know, there's this
Speaker 2: invisible line of people waiting to do business with you,
Speaker 2: and the people that are going to take up the
Speaker 2: most time in a line stop the people that take
Speaker 2: the least amount of time. That's a scary thought for
Speaker 2: anybody entrepreneur to accept, and it's a leap of faith.
Speaker 2: And if you start looking around, you'll see entrepreneur after
Speaker 2: entrepreneur experiencing it. Kind of is a law of the
Speaker 2: entrepreneur universe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think that's such great advice and
Speaker 1: it's so refreshing to hear that, because I think everyone
Speaker 1: feels that way, where it just like, I have to
Speaker 1: do this. This is going to be our big winner,
Speaker 1: it's going to be our big ticket. But it always
Speaker 1: ends up going the opposite way when they're being a
Speaker 1: huff and It's such great advice because it could save
Speaker 1: you so much stress, save you so much pressure, and
Speaker 1: you're going to feel like you did a great job,
Speaker 1: you only got paid half. You might feel bitter. You're
Speaker 1: now resentful they didn't renew. It turns into a whole
Speaker 1: bigger emotional thing as well.
Speaker 2: It was awed money.
Speaker 1: Yeah when it doesn't need to. Yeah, Yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to shift away from work to relationships because I feel
Speaker 1: like so much of what you say applies to marriage,
Speaker 1: It applies to dating, it applies to you know, everyday
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships and friendship. We touched on her a bit
Speaker 1: at the beginning, but I wanted to talk about this
Speaker 1: idea that I think a lot of the time we
Speaker 1: actually get an easy negotiation in the beginning, what it
Speaker 1: feels like, right, and then things start to get more constrained.
Speaker 1: So I have a friend who she met this guy
Speaker 1: and he promised her the world and he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's going to be amazing, and I love you and
Speaker 1: you're amazing, and this is incredible, and it almost feels
Speaker 1: like you've just won the lottery. Right, It's like you're
Speaker 1: getting everything in this negotiation. He gives you time, he
Speaker 1: gives you energy, date, nights are amazing, Everything's great, and
Speaker 1: then six months in he starts to pull back and go, no,
Speaker 1: I need to focus on this now. No I can't
Speaker 1: call you every day. No I can't now. Not that
Speaker 1: any of those things are even unreasonable, they're actually reasonable things, right,
Speaker 1: But it's just that it's so different from what you
Speaker 1: thought you signed up for. What do you do as
Speaker 1: a negotiation in that setting when you were promised more
Speaker 1: or someone over delivered in the beginning and now they're
Speaker 1: under delivering.
Speaker 2: That's a real aspect of human nature, and so it's
Speaker 2: at some point in time there needs to be polite withdrawal,
Speaker 2: you know, polite boundary setting. I think I think both
Speaker 2: people have you know, I don't know. I hate to
Speaker 2: say that any gender is more guilty than the other. Yeah, same,
Speaker 2: but I think that that men probably have a tendency
Speaker 2: to start adding to the neglect first. And then how
Speaker 2: how do you get advice? Like? How do we how
Speaker 2: do we sustain this? How do you want me to
Speaker 2: feel about where we are now versus where we were? How? Questions? How?
Speaker 2: And what questions are remarkably powerful questions. We refer to
Speaker 2: them as calibrated question. The word what is primarily designed
Speaker 2: to uncover problems. The word how is primarily designed to
Speaker 2: create answers, so you can say what got us off track?
Speaker 2: Because you're off track now. It also feels very deferential,
Speaker 2: you know, how and what makes the other side feel
Speaker 2: in charge. People love to be asked how and what.
Speaker 2: The real issue of both those questions is not what
Speaker 2: the answers are. The thinking you made them engage in
Speaker 2: the answer is secondary. At some point in time, I
Speaker 2: can say what do you want from me? That's going
Speaker 2: to force you to see that there appears to be
Speaker 2: a disconnect between the two of us. It doesn't matter
Speaker 2: what you say. That's a secondary benefit, But the primary
Speaker 2: benefit is that I asked a question in the first place.
Speaker 2: You know, at the very beginning of the book, one
Speaker 2: of the more famous black Swan phrases is how am
Speaker 2: I supposed to do that? And I saw that as
Speaker 2: the first way to say no, you know, to telegraph
Speaker 2: to the other side that there's a problem coming. And
Speaker 2: then my son Brandon points out it's forced empathy. If
Speaker 2: I say how am I supposed to do that? To you?
Speaker 2: You're forced to look at me and take stock of
Speaker 2: the position that I'm in. Your response to that is
Speaker 2: going to tell me exactly how much you care about that.
Speaker 2: That's a game changing phrase, and I realize now it's
Speaker 2: about implementation. I'm saying to you, like, look where we are,
Speaker 2: it's impossible for me to continue. How am I supposed
Speaker 2: to do that? Like eight out of ten times, that
Speaker 2: immediately changes the complexion of the conversation. It's so ridiculously
Speaker 2: effective that in the two out of ten times it
Speaker 2: doesn't work, people are just like, how am I supposed
Speaker 2: to do that? And it backfired? It failed on me.
Speaker 2: They looked at me and said, I don't care how
Speaker 2: you do it, You just got to do it. And
Speaker 2: my answer to them is, no, it didn't fail. It
Speaker 2: gave you an answer you weren't expecting. If it's an
Speaker 2: implementation question, how am I supposed to continue in this relationship?
Speaker 2: If you know you never talked to me, how am
Speaker 2: I supposed to continue? At the beginning, we had these
Speaker 2: amazing We had date nights, we had quality time together,
Speaker 2: we were into each other, and they seemed to have
Speaker 2: gone away. How am I supposed to maintain my relationship
Speaker 2: with you? Under these different set of circumstances? You know
Speaker 2: that's not refusing to maintain it. What you're saying, what
Speaker 2: they hear. But what they hear is I'm about out
Speaker 2: of here, and it's a great warning. And so either
Speaker 2: they're going to change, they're going to wake up because
Speaker 2: there's some inadvertent human nature there, or they're going to
Speaker 2: be indifferent to your question. If they're indifferent, that's just
Speaker 2: given you a preview of a slowly descending future. Now
Speaker 2: you got a hard decision to make. Be grateful for
Speaker 2: the time, be willing to be smarter today than you
Speaker 2: were yesterday, and ultimately your default has got to be
Speaker 2: your own happiness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And how do we do that in a way
Speaker 1: that we keep our personal emotions separate from those questions,
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes you can ask those questions, but
Speaker 1: they're emotionally loaded. They're like things used to be amazing before,
Speaker 1: like you know, now you don't do anything, and they
Speaker 1: turn into not questions, they turn into demand else, yeah,
Speaker 1: or they turn into things that sound complaining, like oh,
Speaker 1: things were amazing before, like how do you expect me
Speaker 1: to And it sounds like a complaint as opposed to
Speaker 1: a question, which is what you're positioning it as. And
Speaker 1: I think that's because our emotion gets so close to
Speaker 1: the question, how do you keep your emotion separate and
Speaker 1: go Actually, I need to negotiate effectively to get to
Speaker 1: where I want to get to, rather than sound like
Speaker 1: I'm complaining and now that person is only hearing the
Speaker 1: energy of the complaint as opposed to the explanation of
Speaker 1: what you're looking for.
Speaker 2: Well, the two possibilities are, can you talk it through
Speaker 2: with a friend who's neutral, who's not going to give
Speaker 2: you advice. You need a sounding board. You don't need advice.
Speaker 2: You know what the answers are in point of fact,
Speaker 2: so the advice is a waste of time. One of
Speaker 2: the great things I realized why I was effective on
Speaker 2: a suicide hotline. In many cases, I'm just a sounding board.
Speaker 2: I'm letting somebody say stuff out loud instead of having
Speaker 2: a bang around in their head, which is either confusing
Speaker 2: or it makes sense in a bad way, or you
Speaker 2: say stuff out loud and you get a better grip
Speaker 2: on it. So a friend who's a great sound board,
Speaker 2: and you could even say in advance, look, I'm not
Speaker 2: looking for advice. I'm just looking for a sounding board.
Speaker 2: I want to talk this stuff out I want to
Speaker 2: hear what I'm thinking. That's one potential option. You got
Speaker 2: friends that always want to give advice anyway, so there's
Speaker 2: a little bit of a negotiation up front with that friend,
Speaker 2: or maybe certain friends are good for being sounding boards
Speaker 2: and others aren't. Then, in a moment like what happens
Speaker 2: if you didn't have the time to prepare, you catch
Speaker 2: yourself in a moment, which is similar to any negotiation.
Speaker 2: Suddenly you caught yourself in the middle, but your gut
Speaker 2: instinct is going to kick in. The mistake everybody makes
Speaker 2: is they want to deny the dynamic instead of observing it.
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. I don't
Speaker 2: want to sound like a whining, complaining, typical wining, complaining female.
Speaker 2: Instead say I'm probably gonna sound like a typical, whining,
Speaker 2: complaining female or whatever side of that argument that you're
Speaker 2: in argument, interaction, negotiation. If you simply call it out
Speaker 2: an advance, then the other side gets braced for it
Speaker 2: and they deal with it. They don't get to you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like I'm complaining and any
Speaker 2: other person is saying, yeah, but you're gonna go ahead
Speaker 2: and complain. If you say I'm gonna sound like I'm complaining,
Speaker 2: that's that two millimeters shift. The other person will listen
Speaker 2: and then say, well, those are actually some legitimate points.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's a combination of the two things, each of
Speaker 2: which take practice. Like nobody automatically diffuses stuff in advance.
Speaker 2: Nobody automatically does if you got to the point where
Speaker 2: you're denying it, you're actually a little bit further down
Speaker 2: the line. You're aware of the dynamic. So now I'll
Speaker 2: just shift from denying to recognizing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I was asked to give a
Speaker 1: keynote to one of my corporate clients a couple of
Speaker 1: months back, and when they were briefing me, they did
Speaker 1: a great job. They were like, Jay, this audience we
Speaker 1: feel is just on the cusp, ready for your message.
Speaker 1: So they said, usually they're used to dealing with much
Speaker 1: more hard hitting speakers who are going to like pump
Speaker 1: them up and motivate them, but we want them to
Speaker 1: move into this softer emotional intelligence, meditation, peace space. And
Speaker 1: they said that they're probably going to have their backs
Speaker 1: up a bit when you walk in, because they'd expect
Speaker 1: someone who's you know, going to come in a bit more,
Speaker 1: but we really want you to be the person who
Speaker 1: takes them in this direction. So I was like, I
Speaker 1: really appreciate that briefing because it was good for me
Speaker 1: to have that. So I walk in to this conference
Speaker 1: and I can tell what the person told me on
Speaker 1: the phone is immediately the truth I get announced. I
Speaker 1: walk out on stage. There's a few claps, but it's
Speaker 1: not the warmest reception I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 1: And I called it out. It was exactly what you said.
Speaker 1: I said, Look, I know you all think that meditation
Speaker 1: is woo woo. I said, I know you all think
Speaker 1: that you know stillness and peace and all this stuff
Speaker 1: is a bit intangible and it's a bit random. But
Speaker 1: I promise you everything I'm going to share with you
Speaker 1: today is highly practical, tactical, and you're going to be
Speaker 1: able to implement it. And all of a sudden, I
Speaker 1: could see people change and what I was saying was true.
Speaker 1: I'm very tactical about meditation and I'm very practical about philosophy.
Speaker 1: But the assumption people had was, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 1: we just want someone to motivate us. And it was amazing,
Speaker 1: Like that felt like one of the biggest wins that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the presentation went off on a beautiful arc.
Speaker 1: I felt such a great rapport with the audience. And
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you just said. It was recognizing and
Speaker 1: again going back to your earlier point, summarizing what their
Speaker 1: point of view was and recognizing that that was okay.
Speaker 1: It's not that they were wrong. It's not that they
Speaker 1: were flawed or that they weren't smart enough. It wasn't condescending.
Speaker 1: It was genuine that they had certain beliefs about meditation
Speaker 1: and philosophy that could be true, but that I wasn't
Speaker 1: presenting it that way, right. So I love that, And
Speaker 1: it was probably one of my favorite speaking experiences because
Speaker 1: it felt like such a challenge to have to turn
Speaker 1: it around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then then it's highly satisfying retrospect, right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you did it with them invisibly, like they didn't
Speaker 2: know what happened. Yeah, it just happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It was really special when someone's in a
Speaker 1: relationship and they're like, I want to I want to
Speaker 1: get my partner to do more personal growth. I want
Speaker 1: to get my partner to maybe it'll be open up
Speaker 1: to therapy. I want to get my you know, and
Speaker 1: I hear this a lot. I'm sure you hear it too,
Speaker 1: But I hear a lot of people tell me I
Speaker 1: want my partner too, right, they want their partner to
Speaker 1: become something or do something. How do you negotiate that
Speaker 1: and how should that person change their mindset in order
Speaker 1: to make it a healthier thing than a demand.
Speaker 2: The real fundamental issue is is this a right relationship? Like,
Speaker 2: is this behavior that's consistent with the things that you
Speaker 2: value and the things that they value. That's the first
Speaker 2: issue of my company gets coached on EOS. Jonathan Smith
Speaker 2: is or US coach, and I remember the first time
Speaker 2: we sit down with Jonathan. He said, all right, so
Speaker 2: what are your core values? I'm like, what do you mean,
Speaker 2: work hard, be honest? What more is there learn? You know,
Speaker 2: have a sense of humor. He's like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: So first of all, it's a little more complicated than that. Secondly,
Speaker 2: he said, then all of your relationships, you'll find, all
Speaker 2: business and personal succeed or fail based on alignment of
Speaker 2: core values. Like oh wow, okay, that makes sense. So
Speaker 2: does this have to do with the relationship? Is it
Speaker 2: behavior change that you're seeking from the other person consistent
Speaker 2: with the core values that you share. Now you don't
Speaker 2: have to share every core value, but you kind of
Speaker 2: need to share about eighty percent of them. And if
Speaker 2: the behavior you're asking for is really disguised for a
Speaker 2: change and a value, it's not going to happen. And
Speaker 2: the hard part is accepting that you can value someone.
Speaker 2: They can remain your friend. You can still have a
Speaker 2: positive relationship, but not that intimate relationship, not that that
Speaker 2: lifelong commitment which the vast majority of us are driving for,
Speaker 2: you know, this great phenomenal, collaborative, long term relationship of trust.
Speaker 2: So what I would ask is for the person to say,
Speaker 2: does this fall with it? Do we share enough values?
Speaker 2: This is worth the trouble? And then the conversation is
Speaker 2: that I'm now talking about a behavior change that consistent
Speaker 2: with the values that they hold. If the behavior change
Speaker 2: is inconsistent with the values that they hold, they ain't
Speaker 2: never going to change. And we're both going to be miserable,
Speaker 2: and we're going to waste two to two to five
Speaker 2: to seven years of our lives. And hopefully the only
Speaker 2: upside will be when this is over. I'm smarter. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And that some of this is It's taken me a
Speaker 2: really long time to come to accept the reality of
Speaker 2: it that we're not helping each other. If we're not
Speaker 2: in the right relationship, you're not helping them, they're not
Speaker 2: helping you, and you can value them as human beings
Speaker 2: and you can wish them well. So the first question
Speaker 2: is is the behavior change I want consistent with the
Speaker 2: values that we share. Now you can start talking about
Speaker 2: it within that light, so sounds like we share this value. Consequently,
Speaker 2: here's how I think we can manifest it together so
Speaker 2: that we have a deeper relationship. In that context, there's
Speaker 2: a conversation if it's about the other person being happier too,
Speaker 2: not just you being happier at their expense, but it's
Speaker 2: about both of you being happier together, and it's really
Speaker 2: going to line up to what are the values?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you've then on had the I believe
Speaker 1: the challenge is that we want people to respect our
Speaker 1: values because in some way we disrespect theirs. So we
Speaker 1: want people to value what we value because we actually
Speaker 1: don't like their values. And I find that that twenty
Speaker 1: percent you're talking about around where you don't have to
Speaker 1: have the same shared values. I think that's when you
Speaker 1: actually respect. Wait a minute, they have a different value
Speaker 1: to me in this area, and that's okay. Let me
Speaker 1: learn to value that, and hopefully they'll learn to value
Speaker 1: my differing value. And hey, guess what, we may not
Speaker 1: value the same things in this area, but I respect
Speaker 1: that person for their values because I understand how they
Speaker 1: got to their and I understand why they have that value,
Speaker 1: and we don't have to have the same one. And
Speaker 1: I find that we're constantly we feel like if someone
Speaker 1: doesn't have the same exact values as us and value
Speaker 1: the same exact things, then that we can't connect the two, right,
Speaker 1: And I feel like you're going to run out of
Speaker 1: people chasing people across the world trying to find someone
Speaker 1: who values what you value in exactly the same way.
Speaker 1: Two people can value their family, but they can mean
Speaker 1: two totally different things, right, Yeah, I find that we
Speaker 1: need to get beyond this idea of my values are
Speaker 1: the most important and they're all that value, and if
Speaker 1: you don't value that, then we can't get anywhere.
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, I agree, And and be curious about the
Speaker 2: other side values exactly, and then how is it added?
Speaker 2: How is it added to your life?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: My girlfriend Wendy. Again, she get relationships with people that
Speaker 2: she and she keeps in touch with people she's known
Speaker 2: since she was seven years old. I don't have those
Speaker 2: kind of relationships, you know, I haven't worked that hard
Speaker 2: at it. Some of those people are still alive, but
Speaker 2: I rarely talk to them. And She's really opened my
Speaker 2: eyes and so so many ways to the value of
Speaker 2: these great long term relationships, even with people that you
Speaker 2: disagree with rationally, you know, you're a Democrat, there, Republican,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. But you know she's maintaining
Speaker 2: those relationships and there's a richness to her life that
Speaker 2: I have not maintained that I see it manifest itself,
Speaker 2: and you know, I want to learn from it.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. The books go, never split the difference? Do
Speaker 1: you ever split the difference?
Speaker 2: No? Never?
Speaker 1: Now Now in relationship is not business, not so here's
Speaker 1: a caveat though.
Speaker 2: There's a difference between splitting and blending. Okay, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe this is too cerebral of an analogy, but steel
Speaker 2: is two percent carbon ninety eight percent iron. That ain't
Speaker 2: splitting the difference. What's the proper blend? If there is
Speaker 2: a blend, so that what we come up with is
Speaker 2: a better product. Now two percent ninety eight percent split
Speaker 2: in human nature be like, oh my god, now you know.
Speaker 2: Or if I contributed two percent, I want fifty percent
Speaker 2: of the profit. Now you only contributed two percent, Well,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter that we're far more better off. So
Speaker 2: splitting the difference is not really about finding the best blend.
Speaker 2: Or then never split the difference might also mean that
Speaker 2: you're one hundred percent right and I'm one hundred percent wrong.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite negotiations from Georgetown husband a wife
Speaker 2: in a discussion over a real tree versus artificial tree
Speaker 2: Christmas tree. Husband wants an artificial tree for all the
Speaker 2: practical reasons. He thinks his wife is being unreasonable, unpredictable,
Speaker 2: too emotional about a real tree. And he's a student,
Speaker 2: so he uses, he thinks to get his way. A
Speaker 2: great label sounds like having a real tree meant a
Speaker 2: lot to you growing up, because he's he's digging in deep.
Speaker 2: If if somebody's really seemingly irrationally sticking to something, it's
Speaker 2: not some reason, It is not the last twenty four hours,
Speaker 2: it may be twenty years ago. And so then she
Speaker 2: opens up and finally lays out all the reasons for
Speaker 2: the real tree. He realizes she's completely right. Her goals
Speaker 2: are much loftier and more long lasting than his are
Speaker 2: they get a real tree. So never split the difference
Speaker 2: is also being willing to entertain the idea that the
Speaker 2: other side's got insight that you don't have, and you've
Speaker 2: got to be open to it and be willing to
Speaker 2: accept it, which is the same thing you want from them.
Speaker 2: It's just making this a two way street.
Speaker 1: That's a great answer. I love that Chris has been
Speaker 1: such a joy talking to you today, and I know
Speaker 1: that people I hope are going to run and get
Speaker 1: the book. Never split the difference. But you always have
Speaker 1: a documentary out you're talking about someone you to share
Speaker 1: that with us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just came out. It's called Tactical Empathy. It's
Speaker 2: on Amazon. We shot it with DNA Films Nick Natton,
Speaker 2: Emmy winning producer, and it's really sort of about the
Speaker 2: history of the hostage sieges and how they turned out
Speaker 2: and what we learned from and we collectively. You know,
Speaker 2: my son Brandon is featured in the documentary. There's a phrase,
Speaker 2: empathy is a sneak attack on racism. Empathy produces better
Speaker 2: decision making. And when Nick came to me about the film,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, they're enough law enforcement disadvantaged community
Speaker 2: problems that I think empathy is going to go a
Speaker 2: long way towards solving not all of them, just most
Speaker 2: of them. And if you're rid of most of them,
Speaker 2: that's a pretty good start. So we're going to categorize.
Speaker 2: This is going to be designed to show how law
Speaker 2: enforcement hearing people out is going to tamp down a
Speaker 2: lot of the flames, if you will. So then we
Speaker 2: end up at about the same time I get approached
Speaker 2: by NYPD. They want me to come and do a
Speaker 2: training for They've got critical people that they want emotional
Speaker 2: intelligence training for. They want to plan a seed because
Speaker 2: they want a more effective NYPD, which is a more
Speaker 2: pathic NYPD. And I said, all right, so here's the deal.
Speaker 2: Let us film it for the documentary and my son
Speaker 2: Brandon is going to do the training, not me. You
Speaker 2: get us for a full day. Brandon is as good
Speaker 2: or better at this than I am. And the interesting
Speaker 2: additional feature is my son brand his mother's African American
Speaker 2: effectively to the world he is African American, big Boy,
Speaker 2: Big big guy played lineman in college football, sizeable human being,
Speaker 2: the very kind of guy that if he got out
Speaker 2: of his car, will cause most police officers to think
Speaker 2: they got to fight on their hands just by looking
Speaker 2: at him. He's going to do the training, and so
Speaker 2: we've got a segment in there Brandon doing this phenomenal
Speaker 2: training for these guys and showing them how empathy is
Speaker 2: going to make you more effective. It's going to build
Speaker 2: bridges in the community. Community's got problems with law enforcement
Speaker 2: that you didn't create. You stepped into this job trying
Speaker 2: to do the right thing. That doesn't matter of the
Speaker 2: baggage between the communities. You got to deal with that.
Speaker 2: So there's also besides the history of the company and
Speaker 2: some pretty good hostage stories. Then we're trying to back
Speaker 2: into police community relationships a little bit with the doc
Speaker 2: and I hope it helps law enforcement get better training
Speaker 2: so that there's less problems with the disadvantaged communities.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. What's it quote Tactical Empathy on Amazon on
Speaker 1: Amazon Awesome. I can't wait to watch it. Sounds fantastic, Chris,
Speaker 1: it has been such a pleasure talking to you. We
Speaker 1: end every episode of on Purpose with a final five
Speaker 1: or a fast five. Each question has to be answered
Speaker 1: with one sentence maximum it's a lightning round lighting the
Speaker 1: lightning ryeah one sentence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I get to proceed to the championship level. Y.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, all right, So Chris Vast, these are your
Speaker 1: fast five. So question number one, Chris, what's the best
Speaker 1: advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 2: Never take directions from somebody you in trade places.
Speaker 1: With Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever
Speaker 1: heard or received?
Speaker 2: Wow? You know, hang in there just to prove them wrong.
Speaker 1: Third thing, how would you define your current purpose?
Speaker 2: Make it a world better place?
Speaker 1: Question number four? Why is empathy not a weakness?
Speaker 2: Ah, Empathy is strength, Empathy is reasoning. Empathy is a superpower,
Speaker 2: and it's got nothing to do with weakness.
Speaker 1: And fifth and final question. We asked this to every
Speaker 1: guest who's ever been on the show. If you could
Speaker 1: create a law that everyone in the world had to follow,
Speaker 1: what would it be?
Speaker 2: Be nice first?
Speaker 1: Nice guys don't finish last?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, Well you don't got to stay nice. You's
Speaker 2: got to be nice first, got it?
Speaker 1: I love it, Chris Voss. Everyone in the book is
Speaker 1: called never split the difference. The documentary is called Tactical Empathy.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful Chris for your time and energy. I
Speaker 1: hope we get to do this again. This was just
Speaker 1: the beginning of our relationship and I feel like I
Speaker 1: learned so much. This is definitely an episode I'm going
Speaker 1: to listen to again, and I highly recommend you all
Speaker 1: go and read the book because there are so many
Speaker 1: great insights, principles, tips, strategies and stories inside of it,
Speaker 1: and of course go and watch the doc on Amazon
Speaker 1: Tactical Empathy. Chris, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: So grateful.
Speaker 2: There's a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for listening
Speaker 1: to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my
Speaker 1: chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key
Speaker 1: to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.
Speaker 1: If you know you want to be more and achieve
Speaker 1: more this year, go check it out right now.
Speaker 2: You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,
Speaker 2: and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
Speaker 2: There's no sense of meaning and purpose. You sort of
Speaker 2: expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it
Speaker 2: didn't happen