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Speaker 1: your Mind, Change your Life.

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Speaker 2: How do I negotiate a better salary? Bosses there, listen

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Speaker 2: and I said, ask him this question. Chris Vons, retired

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Speaker 2: FBI Special Agent for what Lead International kidnapping negotiators, but

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Speaker 2: author have never split the difference. We don't really see

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Speaker 2: the great negotiators as great negotiators. One of the greatest

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Speaker 2: negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey.

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Speaker 1: What are women doing wrong or what can they do better?

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Speaker 1: In negotiation?

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Speaker 2: You're out of order on the sequence?

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Speaker 1: Can you negotiate with a narcissist?

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Speaker 2: Of course, you can negotiate with the narcissists. One of

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Speaker 2: the things we advise people to do.

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Speaker 1: Is weird throw to announce that we've reached three million subscribers.

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Speaker 1: you love. Our team carefully analyzes what resonates most with

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Speaker 1: you to bring on board the best experts and storytellers

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Speaker 1: to help you improve your life. Some of your favorite

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Speaker 1: topics are sleep, science, weight loss, physical fitness, navigating breakups,

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Speaker 1: habit building, and understanding toxic relationships. Upcoming episodes include one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest names in health and science world, renowned

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Speaker 1: relationship therapist, and your favorite manifestation expert is back to

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Speaker 1: these episodes. If you think of someone who would love

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Speaker 1: this episode, send it to them to make their day.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast.

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Speaker 1: Jay Sety, Jay Sheety Yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: On Purpose. I'm so glad that you're back because I

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Speaker 1: love sitting down with incredible minds, thinkers, thought leaders who

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Speaker 1: are helping us develop better skills, better habits, and better mindsets.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is a former lead FBI negotiator and dynamic

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Speaker 1: speaker who debunks the biggest myths of negotiation. Chris Voss

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Speaker 1: engages all groups with captivating stories, insights, and useful tips

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Speaker 1: for business and everyday life. Chris is lectured on negotiation

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Speaker 1: at business schools and across the country and has been

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Speaker 1: seen on ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox News. He's also

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Speaker 1: been featured in Forbes, Time, Fast Company, and Inc. And

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Speaker 1: Chris's book, Never Split the Difference has sold over two

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Speaker 1: million copies. And It's all about negotiating as if your

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Speaker 1: life depends on it. If you're in a space in

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Speaker 1: your life where you need to get better at dealing

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Speaker 1: with conflict, negotiate better, and make sure that you win

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Speaker 1: in one of those situations. This episode is for you.

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Speaker 1: Please welcome to On Purpose, Chris Vos. Chris, it's great

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Speaker 1: to have you in studio.

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Speaker 2: Jay, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you so much for being here. As

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Speaker 1: I said, I find your work fascinating because I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's every day that you get to learn about

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Speaker 1: negotiation from someone who's done it in the most high stakes,

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Speaker 1: highly critical, difficult environments. And I wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: why did you come a lead negotiate to that.

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Speaker 2: It's almost a cliche, but it's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: following your bliss and then every now and then, I

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Speaker 2: think the universe jumps in and makes you change the directions.

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Speaker 2: And originally I was on a swap team. I was

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Speaker 2: scheduled to be on a SWAT team with the Kansas City,

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Speaker 2: Missouri Police Department. I was on a SWAT team when

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Speaker 2: I joined the FBI and I reinjured my knee. And

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Speaker 2: I love crisis response because I think a comfortable in

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Speaker 2: action is one of the banes of human existence. We

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Speaker 2: got to make decisions. And so when I was on

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Speaker 2: a SWAT team crisis response, you got to make a decision.

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Speaker 2: You know, they can't. Let's let's sit back and wait

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Speaker 2: and see what happens. That's not really the way you

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Speaker 2: approach a crisis. So when I was on the SWAT team,

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Speaker 2: you know, we had hostage negotiators. They went along with

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Speaker 2: the SWAT guys. I didn't really know what they did.

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Speaker 2: You know, we'd be out there in the cold, in

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Speaker 2: the rain. They'd be inside someplace warm. But I wanted

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Speaker 2: to stay in crisis response, so I thought, yeah, you

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Speaker 2: know I could do that. How hard could it be?

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Speaker 2: It's my son and I Brandon. I've always joked that

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Speaker 2: the Voice family model is how hard can it be be,

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Speaker 2: which is similar to a redneck's famous last words, which are,

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Speaker 2: hey watch this. It's always going to be more complicated

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Speaker 2: than you expect. But I got into it and I

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Speaker 2: loved it. It was more satisfying than SWAT ever was.

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Speaker 2: And SWATT was great, but hostage negotiation, when I stumbled

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Speaker 2: over at the Universe, sort of pushed me in that direction.

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Speaker 2: It was a push that I needed, and I've enjoyed

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Speaker 2: it ever since.

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Speaker 1: And you never felt scared. There wasn't the fear. There

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Speaker 1: wasn't the difficult in your mind before you got involved,

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Speaker 1: that this could be something that would be extremely difficult,

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Speaker 1: potentially painful, challenging.

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Speaker 2: No, because first of all, I was rejected for the

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Speaker 2: negotiation team. I was in fact eminently unqualified. But I

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Speaker 2: went to the head of the program in New York,

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Speaker 2: a woman running the team, and she said, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're not qualified, go away. And I said, all right,

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Speaker 2: So there's got to be something I could do. What

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Speaker 2: is it? She said, go volunteer on a suicide hotline.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, all right. So I went to the suicide

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Speaker 2: hotline to learn, not to help people, helping people with

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Speaker 2: secondary it's good secondary, but I went there to learn,

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Speaker 2: and I was fascinated by it. And so then I'm teachable.

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Speaker 2: I'm coachable. I learned their process and I saw how

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Speaker 2: quickly empathy emotional intelligence accelerated outcomes, positive outcomes, And so

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Speaker 2: I wasn't scared as a hostage negotiator because I'd already

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Speaker 2: learned in a process that I believed in. I knew

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Speaker 2: it was a highly successful process. So when I started

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Speaker 2: hostage negotiation, I just leaned into a process that I

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Speaker 2: had was familiar with and had been proven to me.

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Speaker 1: Worked walk us through what a conversation on a suicide

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Speaker 1: hotline sounds like, because I imagine that being highly stressful.

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Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who's in a high state of panic.

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Speaker 1: There's so much uncertainty. Walk us through what that kind

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Speaker 1: of a conversation looks like and what you learned.

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Speaker 2: Well, THEE used to it very closely supervised, so I

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Speaker 2: think I was a little unsteady at the beginning. So

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason I naturally lapsed into what I refer

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Speaker 2: to as the late night FM DJ voice, and the

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Speaker 2: first call I just said, hello, this is helpline Now.

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Speaker 2: That has a tremendously calming effect on people. And afterwards

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Speaker 2: the supervisors said your voice was great, that was great.

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Speaker 2: You started out great, and I remember thinking like, wow,

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what I did. I'm have to

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Speaker 2: go back to it. So you want to start with

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Speaker 2: a calming, soothing voice, and then no matter what they say,

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Speaker 2: you want to put a label in a hostage negotiation.

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Speaker 2: We called it emotion labeling. In that Black Swan method,

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Speaker 2: we just call it labeling. Put a label on emotion

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Speaker 2: that you're hearing. Doesn't matter what it is just label

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Speaker 2: it now. Since they're in crisis, the emotion is probably

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Speaker 2: going to be negative. And in point of fact, we're

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Speaker 2: all driven by negative thoughts. We're seventy five percent negative

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Speaker 2: our survival mechanism that we wake up with every day

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Speaker 2: to survive. The caveman had to be negative. The optimistic

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Speaker 2: caveman said, you know, yeah, you know, Chris walked in

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Speaker 2: here yesterday and he never came out. But I'm optimistic.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna go in today too. And that guy got

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Speaker 2: eaten too. But the negative guys shot away, and we've

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Speaker 2: inherited that wiring. And I remember one night in particular,

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Speaker 2: this guy's really frantic, sounded sounded super fantic, says you know,

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Speaker 2: I just I need to put it. I need your

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Speaker 2: help putting a lid on this day. I got to

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Speaker 2: put a lid on this day. So I just said,

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Speaker 2: you sounds frantic, and immediately came down. There's a neuroscience

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Speaker 2: reason for that, now that you know. We never knew then.

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Speaker 2: It's just simply calling out a negative emotion is the

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Speaker 2: most effective way to deactivate it. So he came down,

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Speaker 2: and then to the course of the conversation, I just

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Speaker 2: used three labels he was. He was a guy who

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Speaker 2: was paranoid. He's getting a lot of support from his family,

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Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm going on a car tripped tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: I just you know, I just you know, and I

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Speaker 2: know my family's helping me, and I just you know,

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Speaker 2: I just I need my family's help. But I'm worried

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Speaker 2: about it tonight and I can't get to sleep. So

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Speaker 2: I hit him with a label that somebody had once

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Speaker 2: hit me with. In a conversation, I was telling my

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Speaker 2: friend how close I felt to my family, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't say it explicitly. It was strongly implied. And my

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Speaker 2: friend said to me, it sounds like your family's really close.

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Speaker 2: And I remember how good it felt in that moment,

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Speaker 2: and I've never forgotten that. So is this guy's describing

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Speaker 2: to me how much support he was getting from his family,

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Speaker 2: how they were always there for him. It sounded like

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Speaker 2: they're close. So I said that exact line. I said,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like your family's really close. And I felt

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Speaker 2: his strength come back in his voice immediately. So then

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Speaker 2: he went on to tell me about how he'd been

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Speaker 2: battling paranoia and how hard he was working, and he

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Speaker 2: struck me as determined. So I simply said sound determined,

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Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, just like that, Yeah, I am determined.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna go on a car trip tomorrow and be fine.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for everything you did, hung up the phone. That's

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Speaker 2: not every conversation, but that's the way they're supposed to go.

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Speaker 2: You know, you call out what you're hearing, and it

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Speaker 2: really helps people sort of self level because you're great

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Speaker 2: sounding board and you're picking out the negatives and deactivating

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Speaker 2: them and the positives and reinforcing them just by observing them.

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Speaker 1: The reason why I find that so fascinating is because

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, so many of us deal with our friends.

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Speaker 2: YEP.

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Speaker 1: In that sort of an environment, you may get a

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Speaker 1: phone call from a friend who's like panicking, they've just

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Speaker 1: ended a relationship, they've gone through a rejection of failure,

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Speaker 1: whatever it may be, and our got instinct is to

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Speaker 1: try and solve that problem and to fix it for

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Speaker 1: them and fill in the blanks, when actually what you're

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Speaker 1: saying is the ability to just notice what they're experiencing,

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Speaker 1: what they're feeling, and being able to call it out

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Speaker 1: and label it, as you rightly said, that's actually giving

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Speaker 1: them the tools to make sense of it for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it's restoring their tools. And then it's

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Speaker 2: also they feel very self empowered. The problem with giving

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Speaker 2: advice is the person receiving it doesn't feel empowered. They

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Speaker 2: might not be able to sort through it emotionally, and

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Speaker 2: so then when you're not there, they're lost again. They

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Speaker 2: didn't feel like they got to the answer on their own.

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Speaker 2: A great sounding board simply helps his guide helps them

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Speaker 2: get to the answer on their own, and then inside

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Speaker 2: they say, what wait, I got here on my own once,

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Speaker 2: I could do it again. Whereas if you give me

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Speaker 2: the advice when you're not around, I might be lost.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a famous quote that says something like good

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Speaker 1: leaders make you believe in them. Great leaders make you

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Speaker 1: believe in you. And this idea that if someone's really

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Speaker 1: leading the conversation, well, the person's walking away with self belief, yes,

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Speaker 1: and the confidence and what they have. Before we dive

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Speaker 1: into the actual tools and breaking down of a negotiation,

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Speaker 1: I find that most people try to avoid a negotiation

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Speaker 1: because they see it as conflict. They see it as

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Speaker 1: an argument, they see it as a potential debate, and

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Speaker 1: most of us are trying to avoid conflict at all costs.

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Speaker 1: And so even if it's like your plumber and they

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Speaker 1: quote you a price, we're scared of negotiating because we're

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Speaker 1: scared of that turning into an altercation. Or if someone's

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Speaker 1: trying to sell us something at a store, when we're

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Speaker 1: scared to have that conversation about a discount or whatever

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Speaker 1: it may be. Walk us through that fear. What have

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Speaker 1: you noticed about Where does that fear come from that

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Speaker 1: we all carry of. I don't want to get into

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Speaker 1: a conflict. I don't want to negotiate. I'll just go

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Speaker 1: with what you want because it's easier to be a

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Speaker 1: people pleaser.

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Speaker 2: Myself and my team we believe even we've got enough

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Speaker 2: anecdotal data that the world splits up evenly into three

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Speaker 2: types fight flight, make friends, A sort of analyst, a comminator.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen this show up globally. It's disconnected from gender, ethnicity, religion.

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Speaker 2: So two out of three don't like conflict, the analyst

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Speaker 2: and the accommodator. Analysts thinks of life very much like chests.

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Speaker 2: Lots of moves, lots of percentages, and analysts want to

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Speaker 2: think everything through, all the possibilities and then put percentages

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Speaker 2: on it, and conflict is one option, and it tends

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Speaker 2: to be highly destructive, highly inefficient, and so the analyst

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Speaker 2: doesn't particularly like conflict because it seems to be very

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Speaker 2: inefficient and ineffective, and they are far more better ways

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Speaker 2: to communicate, So they're avoiding conflict for that reason. The

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Speaker 2: relationship on in person the accommodator, conflict is just ugly.

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Speaker 2: It makes them feel bad. It sort of pollutes their existence,

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Speaker 2: and they see that as a much higher cost. It

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Speaker 2: places a very high value on relationships optimism, being very

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Speaker 2: hope based. So they're going to avoid it for those

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Speaker 2: reasons that. You know, they want to feel connected to you,

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Speaker 2: and conflict doesn't make them feel connected to you. Now,

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Speaker 2: the third type, the assertive. You know, they love it.

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Speaker 2: They say it's combat. They love it, They get into it,

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Speaker 2: they recover from the conflict very quickly. I happen to

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Speaker 2: be a natural born assertive. Donald Trump is a poster

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Speaker 2: child for assertives. It's just one of the three times

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Speaker 2: and love combat. But then don't really pay attention to

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Speaker 2: the long term costs of being openly aggressive because the

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Speaker 2: you know, the adrenaline hit in the moment a victory

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Speaker 2: tends to overshadow how the losses pile up, So we

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Speaker 2: want you know, two or three, we want to avoid that.

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Speaker 2: So the real challenge, though, is we got to collaborate.

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Speaker 2: But negotiation has this feeling to it that it's the loudest,

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Speaker 2: most agreat a voice in the room, the guy who

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Speaker 2: kicks the chair across the room to get his points, screams,

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Speaker 2: slams their hands on a table, storms out. You know,

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Speaker 2: this thing that actually happens a tendency to pollute the

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Speaker 2: collaborative environment. And we don't really see the great negotiators

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Speaker 2: as great negotiators. You know, in my view, one of

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Speaker 2: the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey. Nobody sees

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Speaker 2: her as conflict oriented, that her list of great negotiations,

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Speaker 2: her life's achievements based on collaboration and being very positive.

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Speaker 2: And then if you were to try to consider the

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Speaker 2: context of our life having gained tremendous success in an

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Speaker 2: environment filled with maybe some of the most volatile people

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Speaker 2: on earth, Hollywood celebrities. What Hollywood celebrities mad at Oprah?

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Speaker 2: You know what rock fight has she gotten into? You know,

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Speaker 2: who's thrown shade like it is not there simultaneously her

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Speaker 2: financial success and the different phenomenal interviews she's gotten. They

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Speaker 2: were no no holds Bard's interview. You know, you know

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Speaker 2: one of my favorites is Lance armstrong interview. I happen

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Speaker 2: to be acquainted with Lance. I like them a lot.

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Speaker 2: But there was no punches pulled there. That was a

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Speaker 2: negotiation going into that. So spectacular negotiation is really invisible,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know that. Because it's invisible. We don't

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Speaker 2: think of Oprah as a great negotiator. Warren Buffett, we

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Speaker 2: don't think of him as a great negotiator, and they

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Speaker 2: have to be. So that's we're just not aware of

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Speaker 2: what great negotiation really looks like because it looks like

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Speaker 2: great collaboration, great navigation. As soon as you could change

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Speaker 2: the definition from win lose to great collaboration, now people

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Speaker 2: are interested. You know, how to fine negotiation is great collaboration,

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Speaker 2: long relationship where we're both ecstatic about our success. And

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Speaker 2: if you can reframe it like that, then people are

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Speaker 2: a lot more interested in negotiation. I think that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons the book has succeeded, because it's not

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Speaker 2: a series of stories where we beat anybody. Sometimes we

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Speaker 2: had to force collaboration with a highly competitive negotiator. That

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Speaker 2: was what kidnapping was about. I'm going to force the

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Speaker 2: kidnapper to collaborate. I'm going to force that guy from

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Speaker 2: al Qaeda into a collaborative conversation. But I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to hit back.

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Speaker 1: Walk me through how you force that person into collaboration

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Speaker 1: and not hit back, because I think you're right. I

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Speaker 1: think the overarching belief we have is, oh, we got

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Speaker 1: to beat them. We've got to find a way to

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Speaker 1: get what we want from them. Like that's what you

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Speaker 1: think of a negotiation, even in normal times, let alone

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Speaker 1: those high stakes. But how do you do that in

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Speaker 1: that scenario?

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Speaker 2: One of my favorite conversations describing this a number of

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Speaker 2: years ago. I got to hire it to train hostage

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Speaker 2: negotiation team in the Middle East, and the country that

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Speaker 2: I was in very pro western country, a Muslim, you know,

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Speaker 2: ostensibly a Muslim country, but really tolerant of all religions

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Speaker 2: as most of them are. So get brought in to

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Speaker 2: talk to the shik that's the head of kind of

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Speaker 2: terrorism and I'm told in advance, Uh, the shak if

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Speaker 2: we have if al Kinda comes here and grabs people,

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Speaker 2: or if any terrorist organization comes here and grabs people.

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Speaker 2: Understand the shak wants to kill him, that people of

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Speaker 2: his country are his children, and he wants to protect

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Speaker 2: his children at all courts. So you sit down with

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Speaker 2: the Sheik, he's going to want to know how you're

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Speaker 2: gonna protect his people. So I get a meeting with

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Speaker 2: this guy, brilliant, brilliant young man, brilliant. And he looks

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Speaker 2: at me and he says, all right, what are you

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Speaker 2: going to teach my guys to say? And I looked

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Speaker 2: at him and I said, they're gonna say to the

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Speaker 2: Terra's kidnapper on the other end of the phone, what

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Speaker 2: you're doing is a great thing. And his mouth fell open,

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Speaker 2: and I said, now I got you, because you can't

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Speaker 2: wait to hear what I'm going to say next. You

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Speaker 2: were so caught off guard, you were in complete curiosity mode.

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Speaker 2: You're hanging on every syllable that comes out of my mouth.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I'm going to teach you guys to do.

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Speaker 2: And he went, oh, you're hired. But so what is

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Speaker 2: driving the other side in their mind? How do they

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Speaker 2: see what they're doing, What do they see as a

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Speaker 2: justification for it? Like so much conflict, the go away

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Speaker 2: if I can simply recognize what you see as the

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Speaker 2: reason for your problem without agreeing with it. Probably about

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Speaker 2: two years ago, myself and a friend Nicole Benham were

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Speaker 2: hosting a room Monk clubhouse. At the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Israel Palestine. It was the water done version of

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Speaker 2: what's going on with Hamas now. Israeli started shelling the

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Speaker 2: Gaza strip because Amas in fact is hiding weapons in

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Speaker 2: hospitals and schools in the press office, and Israel gets

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Speaker 2: tired of it after a while they starts shelling those offices.

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Speaker 2: So it's a milder version of what's going on right now.

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Speaker 2: But the vitriol going on online was huge, and the

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Speaker 2: cole calls me up, she says, you know, we got

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Speaker 2: to find a way to help sell this out. I said,

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Speaker 2: all right, well, we'll do a room on clubhouse and

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Speaker 2: we'll invite people favoring the Palestinians and people favoring the

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Speaker 2: Israelis on and they can talk it out. With one rule,

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Speaker 2: one caveat. Before you say whatever you have to say

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Speaker 2: about what you think of the other side, you got

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Speaker 2: to summarize where they think they're coming from, what their

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Speaker 2: point of view is and as soon as you get

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Speaker 2: it all clear from them, as soon as the other

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Speaker 2: side effectively says that's right, that's how I see it,

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Speaker 2: you could say whatever you want. Now. Did we come

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Speaker 2: to any agreements that night? No? But what was more

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Speaker 2: important was there were no arguments. Soon as somebody tries

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Speaker 2: to articulate how the other side sees things, it actually

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Speaker 2: makes you smarter. I want sort of guy, say, empathy

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Speaker 2: is a species of reason. You know, you're analyzing where

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Speaker 2: are the other side's coming from? And an attempting to

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Speaker 2: genuinely analyze it. You start deactivating their reasons for the escalation,

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Speaker 2: because there are reasons for the escalations. Is at least

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Speaker 2: they don't feel heard. Let me take that one off

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Speaker 2: the table. You don't feel heard. Now we can be

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Speaker 2: in a position where we could actually talk about this.

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Speaker 2: So I'm interviewing. I get this. This thing on fire

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Speaker 2: side is social media app what it is is largely

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Speaker 2: I have guessed in it's life. Q and A bring

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Speaker 2: a woman on head of a coffee company and she says,

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Speaker 2: I use your Israel palestinianthing to negotiate a resolution between

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Speaker 2: two my top executives. They're at each other's throats, and

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Speaker 2: I love them both and I can't lose either one.

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Speaker 2: So remember what we did on you did on Israel Palestine.

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Speaker 2: And I brought them in a room and I said, okay,

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Speaker 2: you could say whatever you want about the other side,

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Speaker 2: but first you got to summarize their position. You got

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Speaker 2: to summarize how they see things and what is motivating them.

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Speaker 2: And she said two things. She said, we resolved it

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Speaker 2: on the spot, and she said it was such a

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Speaker 2: moment that I still cry when I think about it. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, what's all this rambling about. Take a shot

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Speaker 2: at summarizing how the other side sees things. If it

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Speaker 2: doesn't solve the problem on the spot, it at a

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Speaker 2: minimum brings you closer together, and we're all better off

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Speaker 2: closer together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's such a powerful skill. Whether it's

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Speaker 1: in a marriage, whether it's in a friendship, whether it's

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Speaker 1: in the corporate setting. It's such a need. And I

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Speaker 1: find like, as life has got faster and faster and faster,

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Speaker 1: we have less and less time to summarize, and so

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Speaker 1: what we end up doing is we just end up

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Speaker 1: reading someone else's summary. Right, That's what we're doing online

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Speaker 1: on social media is we're reading someone else's summary and

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Speaker 1: analysis of a highly complex situation, and more often than not,

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Speaker 1: we're reading the summary that supports our viewpoint right, not

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Speaker 1: the viewpoint of the other. And so now we have

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Speaker 1: less time we're reading someone else's words, which means we're

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Speaker 1: not even doing the complex computation of trying to understand

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Speaker 1: and comprehend what someone's going through. Hey, you're just catching

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Speaker 1: me as I have my midday pick me up. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've heard about JUNI rather and I put all

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Speaker 1: of our love into creating this amazing drink. It's full

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00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: of new tropics and adaptogens, great for that little breast

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Speaker 1: of energy and hans focus and a happy mind. And

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Speaker 1: guess what, It's only five calories and absolutely no sugar.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're going to try it out. It's available

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Speaker 1: right now at Target if you're a Target shop, I

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Speaker 1: head there right now, and at Sprouts as well this summer.

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Speaker 1: Go grab your Juny. How do you encourage people in

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Speaker 1: this busy, fast pace. You know, we're trying to be

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Speaker 1: efficient environment to actually slow down and embody these skills

428
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: that actually require us to use our brains.

429
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: Most of the time. You got to walk somebody through

430
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: something and coach them into applying it because we don't

431
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: see it around us. Is the first problem is we're

432
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: not seeing anybody do this effectively exactly. That's a great

433
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: point here, So we get we got no models for it.

434
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 2: You know, all we got is models for instigators. The

435
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: professional agitators. Professional agitators are everywhere. They're not a majority,

436
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: but the there's enough of the agitators out there, they

437
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: get tend to get a lot more of attraction.

438
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: How would you define a professional agitative just for people

439
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: to I totally agree.

440
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's it's those in the media that are

441
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: clickbait oriented, agitation oriented. It's highly profitable short term. You know,

442
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 2: you're you're getting advertising dollars based on how many views,

443
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: how many clicks you're getting, and it's so overwhelming, and

444
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: we're so tired of it. The other thing, we're so

445
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: tired of it. You know. One of the things that

446
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: I'm most fascinated with right now is you know the

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: hot tool girl Like. People are so tired of negativity

448
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 2: that anything that's like positive and fun and refreshing and

449
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: catches them off guard. I checked their Instagram today, she

450
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: got like two million followers with thirty six posts and

451
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: she's been there for fifteen minutes. But I think it's

452
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: we have such an appetite for something that's not negative

453
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: and not designed to be agitating, and a very small

454
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: number of agitators can turn a peaceful demonstration into a

455
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: raging mob, and so then they get clicks over that,

456
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: And most of our media is guilty of that. You know,

457
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: nobody's got neither the left nor the right has a

458
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: monopoly on agitation. So Fox is guilty of it, CNN

459
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: is guilty of it, and they get short term profits,

460
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: they get a lot of clicks, they get a lot

461
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: of views. So I think we're not we're not seeing

462
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: the summaries, we're not seeing the demonstration of understanding. But

463
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: in reality it accelerates us to a positive outcome by

464
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: probably about a rate of about fourteen times faster. And

465
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: it's invisible. It's astonishing, and so since it was invisible,

466
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: we didn't really see it when it happened. One of

467
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: the guys on my team, Derek Gaunt, wrote a book

468
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 2: called About Leadership. Applying tactical empathy to leadership is called

469
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 2: the ego authority Failure. He's got a great stat at

470
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 2: the very beginning of it, where rapport based interviews in

471
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: law enforcement gets you to an agreement slash confession fourteen

472
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: times faster than anything else, but nobody knows it happened.

473
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: So then to get good at it, you're never going

474
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: to get congratulated in the moment. That's the other thing.

475
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: It's in the moment. It's not that satisfying very much,

476
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: the way the slot machines are satisfying in Vegas. You know,

477
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: you lose eighty three at eighty four times on those

478
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 2: slot machines, but the winds are so satisfying that's all

479
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: you notice. So to be really good at this, you

480
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: focus more on how suddenly we're in a better place,

481
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: and nobody's congratulating you because they didn't see it happened.

482
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: So it really has to be intrinsically self satisfying. The

483
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: reward is getting it done faster and better. Very few

484
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: people are going to congratulate you on it in the moment.

485
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the only mindset shift we need,

486
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: is that if we want a real resolution, we want

487
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: to feel like we've really accomplished thing, we're really moving forward.

488
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: It requires us to move from that point of view

489
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: of if we negotiate effectively, If I take time to

490
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: summarize the other person's opinion and they take the time

491
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: to do mine, we're actually going to get somewhere, even

492
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: if it's a slower process, even if it's a harder process.

493
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: How do you prepare for a negotiation? Because I think

494
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: a lot of us also think great, I'm going to

495
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: walk in there, I'm going to try to figure it out.

496
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to say something, But walk us through how

497
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: you'd prepare for some of the biggest negotiations in your life.

498
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: What do they look like?

499
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna I'm going to think of how I

500
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: would summarize their perspective. That's going to that's going to

501
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: get really get my wheels turn, and I'm going to

502
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: get a lot of clues. How do they see things.

503
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: I've done it enough that it's almost become second nature.

504
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: You got to do it a lot. Like anything else,

505
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: it simply requires practice. There's this magic hack for life

506
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: called gratitude. It's amazing what a difference it could make,

507
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: and it sounds stupid. I was once in a highly

508
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: adversarial negotiation. The other side was it wasn an adversary

509
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: the other side was very deceptive, which is one of

510
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: my buttons. You know, I don't like deception. One of

511
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: my main currencies is integrity, so that's a violation of

512
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: one of my core values. But thinking that put me

513
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: in a very negative place, and I thought, well, how

514
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: do I get into this in the first place. The

515
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: only reason they're trying so hard to do this deal

516
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: with us is because we're good. It was a training

517
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: company that wanted to make our training offering part of

518
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: their platform. So I thought, this is a byproduct this success.

519
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: I'm actually lucky to even be having this conversation. So

520
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: you know, I found gratitude in a moment, and then

521
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: it opened up my mind because you're thirty one percent positive,

522
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: smarter in a positive frame of mind. So you know,

523
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: whatever your hack is, and different people have different waysitude, exercise,

524
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: first thing in the morning, meditation, whatever you could do

525
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: to clear out your natural negative survival mechanism so that

526
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: you can be more appreciative of life. And that's one

527
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 2: of the ways. And then if I think about that,

528
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: then I can summarize your perspective. And another thing that

529
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: I'll usually do is I'll think of the questions that

530
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: I might normally ask to elicity yes, and I'll switch

531
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: them so that I'm alictiting a no, do you agree

532
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: becomes do you disagree? There's a Pavlovian response to yes

533
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: and no. People if they say yes, they feel like

534
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: they're being led into a trap. Whether they are or not,

535
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: it doesn't change the fact that is a general term.

536
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: Somebody's trying to trap you. Who's gonna litter that path

537
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: with yeses?

538
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: So when you say something that does not make sense

539
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: and they say yes, that's moving in the wrong direction.

540
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: Well it's it's going to trigger that Pavlovian response. Because

541
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: the person that cheated him said something to the effect

542
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: of would you like something for free? Would you like

543
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: to make more money? Would you like to live in

544
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: a big house on a hill? And that led him

545
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: into a trap previously. So it doesn't matter that you

546
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: were you have integrity, it doesn't matter that you are

547
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: not doing it. It got done to them enough times already,

548
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: they're going to have a negative reaction. The ridiculous flip

549
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: side is the Pavlovian response to saying no is that

550
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: people feel predicted. They feel safe when they say no.

551
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: Would you like no? When my son was a teenager, Dad,

552
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: can I know? But then I'm looking back on I

553
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: realized every time I said no, I felt all right.

554
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: So I walled myself off from being walked into anything here,

555
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: and I would look back at him say, okay, so

556
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: now what was it that you wanted? Now I could

557
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: hear more. Haven't protected myself. So I may say to you,

558
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: you know, look, does this sound like a stupid idea?

559
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: And then you won't have been triggered, and you'll listen

560
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: to me. You'll actually to some degree listening with a

561
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: critical mindset, and you'll think, well, you know, I don't

562
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: have any problem with that, but your follow on is

563
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: actually what's important. Now. I don't think it's a stupid idea,

564
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: but I think here are some things that I want

565
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: you to think about. You'll give me those freely. Now

566
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: we're in an actual collaboration. So your original prep at question,

567
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: how do I prep for negotiation? I'm gonna try to

568
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: do what I can't. Put myself in a positive frame

569
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: of mind, work at summarizing the other side's perspective. Think

570
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: of a couple questions where the answers know where it

571
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: moves things forward, as opposed to the yes and I've

572
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: avoided that psychological feeling of the other side feeling I'm

573
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: trapping them.

574
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are the things to do. What are some

575
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: of the biggest mistakes you've seen people make walking in

576
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: preparing for a negotiation.

577
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, the inadvertent thing to start off with is, you know,

578
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: number one, they're gonna they're gonna ask you yes, I'm

579
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: any question, and then number two, they're gonna make their

580
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: pitch the value proposition. You know, you know, I got

581
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: to tell you what's valuable here. Now that's important, but

582
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: you're out of order on the sequence because the other

583
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: side's dying to have their say too. If you go first,

584
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: you kind of rolled over. Well, the whole time you're going,

585
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: they're thinking, but I got something I want to say,

586
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: I got something I want to say. It's a voice

587
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: in the back of their head which is interfering in

588
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: them listening to you. So I'm gonna start out by

589
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: trying to hear you out first. I'm gonna want the

590
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: information from you. I'm gonna want your perspective. I'm also

591
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: gonna want to know what you think is important going

592
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: into this conversation. Let's say we're collaborating to do a deal,

593
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: or you and I are significant others and we want

594
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: to go with something to eat. I'm going to want

595
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 2: to know what's on your mind first, because that's your

596
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 2: a priority for you. Then I'm going to know on

597
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 2: my list what matches up with what you want instead

598
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: of maybe I start out with something that's number one

599
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: on my list, but it's number nine on yours. Now

600
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: you're distracted by the other eight things that you think

601
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: are important. I'm going to try to dial into you

602
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: as quickly as I can because I want to talk

603
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: about what you think is important because that starts our collaboration.

604
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: So really understanding where the other side is coming from

605
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: is information you need for the analyst and for the

606
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: relationship oriented person. Make sure the person feel good so

607
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: you're building a relationship.

608
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: Have you had I'm sure in your experience you've been

609
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: speaking to such incoherent individuals on the other side that

610
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: there isn't a one to nine on their list. There's

611
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: like a a right like it's topsy turvy because they're

612
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: not coming at it from a logical rational. A lot

613
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: of the people sometimes when we're negotiating, we feel like

614
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Like what language are you

615
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: speaking in and we can feel that even with our partners.

616
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: People can feel that at work where it's just like

617
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm talking to a toxic individual who has no idea

618
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: what they want. They're so off the rocker. Like you know,

619
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: when you're speaking to someone on the other side who

620
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: you actually can't figure out, and you're feeling like, I

621
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: can't even read this person, how do you navigate that?

622
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: Well, I liberate myself from the idea of rationality or logic.

623
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: I really see those two things as beauty. Beauty is

624
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: in the air of the beholder, and so when I

625
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: let go of that, and then I think in terms

626
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: of patterns and then other than someone who's actually paranoid, schizophrenic,

627
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: whether wiring is actually wrong, and someone who's offering from

628
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: or Layman's terms wiring issues versus chemical issues what we

629
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: used to refer to as manic, depressive or bipolar. You know,

630
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: they change those terms all the time. Those are principally

631
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: chemical imbalances, paranoids, gizophrenic. If somebody's actually hearing voices, it's

632
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: a problem, but you don't know what the voices are saying.

633
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: That those people are in fact unpredictable. They manifest themselves

634
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 2: very rarely in hostage negotiation. We also found out that unfortunately,

635
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: one of the downsides of being a meth addict. Someone

636
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: could be clean for years, but meth amphetamines does actual

637
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: damage to the wiring and they'll have an episode when

638
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: they've been sober for years that mimics of paranoids gizophrenic.

639
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: So the people that are actually messed up in that

640
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: fashion are very rare. Mostly it's chemical imbalance. And if

641
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: you look at it like that, and then you say,

642
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: all right, so the patterns here. Let me look for

643
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: the patterns, and then they're evidently predictable if you let

644
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: go of the judgment that it's rational or irrational and

645
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: you just start looking for patterns and then listening for them. Now,

646
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: they could be so upset with negative emotions that they

647
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: are in a state of confusion, very much like the

648
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 2: guy they called in on a hotline that night. So

649
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm gonna sort of pick off the negativity

650
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: one at a time, and I'm gonna feed it back,

651
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: and I know that's going to clear your head. In

652
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 2: a business scenario or even a personal scenario, people who

653
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: feel under a tremendous amount of pressure, tend to be

654
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: very demanding and can be very attacking, which feels predatory.

655
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: It even feels like, you know, the magic phrase gas lighting,

656
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: when in fact they're under a massive amount of pressure.

657
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: A company that I just did some training for coaching

658
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: and training. They're based out of the Middle East, but

659
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: their executives are international in nature, and they happen to

660
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 2: be in a discussion in a deal in South Africa

661
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: and the person on the other side of the table

662
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: they called a bully, very attacking, not sticking to the

663
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: written agreement. So of course they're in the negotiation. The

664
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: lawyer's on the table side that I'm coaching. What's the

665
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: lawyer going to do. It's going to open his laptop.

666
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: He's going to read you the agreement, which does not help.

667
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: It's a great way to pour gasoline on a fire.

668
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: Let me remind you of what our agreement says, thinking

669
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: that would help. So the guy. Now, the guy gets

670
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: worse and he starts adding profanity and telling him that

671
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: he's going to rewrite the agreement. They keep their poise,

672
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: and when you're being attacked that much, if you don't

673
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: come up with a great thing to say, the most graceful.

674
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: The smartest move is the witcherw quietly. So the lead said,

675
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: it's probably not a good time for this discussion. We'll

676
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: be happy to leave. Guy settles down a little bit.

677
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: They hit him with a couple of labels. They get

678
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: to a good place in a conversation, but then on

679
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: the way out, he says to the guy, sounds like

680
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: you're under a lot of pressure. And a guy completely relaxed,

681
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: he says, oh man, he says, you don't understand what's

682
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: going on over here. I've got all these demands, I

683
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: got people coming at me from all sides. And the

684
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: recognition of the pressure that this sounds like you're under

685
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure for someone he perceived as an attacking,

686
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: gas lighting bully, the guy's being driven by an internal

687
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: pressure that he was having trouble keeping control over. And

688
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 2: that changed everything. That off fan label and it turned

689
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: everything around.

690
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: Can you negotiate with a narcissist.

691
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: If you look for the patterns and then you know

692
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: the narcissists of demanding So short answer is yes, But

693
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: how are you going to do it? You got to

694
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: make what you want the path to where they want

695
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: to get. Ultimately, narcisists are self centered, so let them

696
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: be self centered or whatever it is that they're after.

697
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: Make your want a step on the journey to their goal.

698
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: And if you can change the sequencing around, that's how

699
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: you can get the upper hand on a narcissist.

700
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: One of the.

701
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: Of course, you can negotiate with a narcissist if you've

702
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: been trained by the Black Swan group Chris Voss. Yeah,

703
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: we'll train you, we'll teach you.

704
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: It's whether you want to or not. It's whether you

705
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: want to negotiate with a narcissist in your life.

706
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: Well, and actually that's a great secondary point because this

707
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: is going to be repetitive behavior. One of the things

708
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 2: we advise people to do is terminate the relationship. You know,

709
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: are they dragging you down? You can do a couple

710
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: of things to try to The psychologists of therapists would

711
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 2: call a boundary setting. Sometimes you set a good hard

712
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: boundary and the other side says, oh, I respect that

713
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: they're looking for you to set gently, not aggressively. They're

714
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: looking for that boundary. Set a couple of boundaries gently,

715
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: politely but firmly, and find out if they're going to

716
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: straighten up. Then you can continue the relationship, you make

717
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: an attempt to sent the boundaries a couple of gentle attempts.

718
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 2: They don't pay any attention to it, whether it's personal

719
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: or professional. That's a preview the future. You don't need

720
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: to be. You don't need to be attached to that.

721
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: You're not going to be who God puts you here

722
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: to be by being attached to people that drag you down.

723
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of us do that for

724
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: good intention, very good reason, and we're not required to

725
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: continue once, you know, be willing to be smarter today

726
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: than you were yesterday.

727
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: Do we ignore the patons? Is that what it is?

728
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: I think we do. I think a lot of us

729
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: do for again, for different reasons. The relationship pointed people

730
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: the accommodators, they're very hope based and they have this

731
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 2: tremendous faith and hope, so to speak. And there's a

732
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: lot of feedback in that. You know, I think the

733
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 2: world is largely a very supportive place. If the world

734
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: wasn't largely on our side, we wouldn't have continued as

735
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: a species. We'd be dead, we'd go on extinct. You know,

736
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: we're not the most durable. You know, we don't. We

737
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: don't have, uh, you know, a fair fight with most

738
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: of the predators on a planet, which is what God

739
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: gave us, we'd lose most of the time. So that

740
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: means that I'm a firm believer that the world is

741
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: largely very supposed supportive and on our side. So that

742
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: reinforces the accommodators because the numbers are on their side.

743
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: They're just not real good in the anywhere from ten

744
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: to thirty percent of the people that are that are

745
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: that are situations that are harmful, So we have reason

746
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: for sticking in there and then allowing wisdom to get

747
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: as smarter as we go, then we eliminate more and

748
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: more of the people that are dragging ustaff.

749
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: If you feel like you're one of those people that

750
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: people always take advantage of, I can imagine a lot

751
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: of people that are listening may feel like they've been

752
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: an accommodated but now they've started to feel like people

753
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: always take advantage of me. I feel used. I feel

754
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: like I'm the one who's always getting the short end

755
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: of the stick. Like, how do you shift that pattern

756
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: for your life? Because you've now made people believe that

757
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: that's who you are, and all of a sudden Now

758
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: you want to change who you are? How do you

759
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: go about that transition and shift and help the way

760
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: so that you no longer feel that everyone's taking advantage

761
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: of you.

762
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the healthy way to start with is first to

763
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: recognition is that you're not really helping them. You know,

764
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 2: if they're taking an advantage of you, you're effectively a crutch.

765
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: And nobody becomes their best self by leaning on a crutch.

766
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: So not only you're not helping yourself, you're not really

767
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: helping them to do the best for them is to

768
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: let them get out there and fend on their own,

769
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: you know, let them deal with it. They need, they

770
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: need to deal with reality. You're not helping them by

771
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: letting them lean on you. All right, So let's say

772
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: you're willing to accept that. Now, how do you how

773
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 2: do you get out of it? And again, I'm going

774
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: to refer it to one of my negotiation heroes, Oprah Winfrey.

775
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm in a discussion with one of her top executives,

776
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: and I was telling this executive, Yeah, our philosophy is

777
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 2: the last impression is the lasting and pression, so always

778
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 2: end positively, no matter what, but end, And she said, yeah,

779
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: that's exactly Oprah's philosophy, and she says, in the entertainment industry,

780
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 2: it's usually in an alemo out a taxi. With Oprah,

781
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: it's in an alemo out almo. No matter what, at

782
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: the end of any relationship, we have to make people

783
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: remind them that we love them and that we value them,

784
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: and then we have to effectively we might need to

785
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: part company. And I'm having a conversation, confrontational confrontation. Oprah

786
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: Winfrey has taking people to the woodshed, but she does

787
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 2: it in such a positive way and a way that

788
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: she underscores to them that they feel valued, that they're

789
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: okay with it. In this conversation, she finishes by saying, like,

790
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 2: whatever you do is your decision, and I want you

791
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: to know that if you decide not to participate in

792
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: this interview, I will always love you, I will always

793
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: be supportive of you, I will always have your back.

794
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: And so that was her way of saying, it's my

795
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: way of the highway, and if you choose the highway,

796
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: I'm still on your side, but we are going to

797
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: part company at this point in time. And finding a

798
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: way to gently say enough, should you ever change your mind,

799
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 2: I'm here for you, and then what's wrong?

800
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: And that's it always feels hard to do that because

801
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: somewhay deep down inside of us, we don't want it

802
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: to be the end of the road. We don't want

803
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: to We want to be hopeful. We want to save,

804
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 1: we want to caum the date, we want to mold,

805
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: we want to become whatever the other person needs us

806
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, we keep doing that, We keep shape shifting.

807
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. The desire to take yourself and them to a

808
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: higher existence, to a higher level of being, to you know,

809
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: to to make the unique and amazing dent in the

810
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: universe that each one of us is capable of doing.

811
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: And we love bringing that out on other people. It's

812
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: very they think.

813
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure when people meet you they feel like they

814
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: can learn from you how to control a situation. But

815
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: you don't strike me as someone who believes that is

816
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: the way it ever goes that that's what you're trying

817
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: to teach. But I can imagine people come up to you,

818
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: and companies come up to and be like Chris, basically

819
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: show us how to control this in our favor.

820
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: Some do yeah, yeah again, about a third you know,

821
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: the assertives love control.

822
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you reframe someone who comes with that

823
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: controlling mindset, who thinks that you can control. I've had

824
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: I've had coaching clients, so I don't coach in what

825
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,479
Speaker 1: you do, but I've even had clients like Jay, teach

826
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: me the right thing to say? Like you always feel

827
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: like you know the right thing to say? Can you

828
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: teach me how to say that to someone in my

829
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: life so that they do what I want? And I'm like,

830
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's That's not how it's going.

831
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: To go right exactly all right. So the secret to

832
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: gaining the upper hand in the negotiation is given the

833
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: other side the illusion to control, and then people will

834
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 2: say like, oh, that's better than control, So that may

835
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 2: be one of the things that cracks them open. Another

836
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: thing is control is highly inefficient time wise. Like let's

837
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: say I could control you completely, I gonna be with

838
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: you all the time to do that. You know, I

839
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 2: could control maybe one person. I can positively influence a

840
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: lot of people if I give up the need for control,

841
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 2: because I'm gonna need you to be self directed. I'm

842
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: gonna need you to be able to think for yourself.

843
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 2: There's gonna be a point in time when we're not together.

844
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 2: If I'm not there to control you, you're gonna fall apart.

845
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: But if I collaborate with you, if I empower you

846
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: when I'm not there, you're gonna think for yourself. As

847
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: a phrase, batteries included, so to speak, which has been

848
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 2: passed on to me by some very smart people. Any

849
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: people who are batteries included, we all need partners that

850
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: are batteries included. We're aligned on core values and we

851
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: get more because I don't have time to control everybody.

852
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: So when you start understanding the costs of control, then

853
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: you start thinking like, yeah, you know, there's got to

854
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: be a better way. And it's guidance. It's helping people think,

855
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: it's making them feel empowered to find the right outcome.

856
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: You talk about mirroring as being a really good technique

857
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: in trying to get to that collaborative same page space.

858
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: How do you do that in an authentic, genuine way.

859
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: Is negotiation ever genuine and authentic or is it always

860
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: three steps ahead? Three moves ahead?

861
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, great question. The negotiation skills and tools are neutral.

862
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: So intention has a smell. Am I trying to collaborate

863
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: with you? Am I trying to take advantage of you

864
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 2: a scalpel, and one person's hands saves a life. In

865
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: another person's hands, it takes a life. So first of all,

866
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: look at effectively negotiation skills. Which emotional intelligence is effective negotiation,

867
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: Tactical empathy is effective negotiation. What's your intention? Like, my

868
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: intention is for us to have a great, long term relationship,

869
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: highly profitable through the infinity. And if somebody's arguing with me,

870
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: I'll say, like, look all right, so I would love

871
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 2: for this moment to be something that we look back

872
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: on ten years from now, This argument we look back

873
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: on on ten years from now as to the moment

874
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: we discovered collaboration and made both of us prosper for

875
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: ten years. That's also changing somebody's frame from short term

876
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 2: to long term to what's my intention? And my intention

877
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: is long term collaboration. Like there's some sales methodologies that

878
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: say your money's in their pocket, it's your job to

879
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: get it out. That's not longtime collaboration. And you're gonna

880
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: sense that, Like, no matter how charming I am in

881
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: a moment, no matter how much fun I am to

882
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: be with, no matter how much I make you laugh,

883
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 2: you're gonna notice the diminishment of your pocket before long.

884
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: And this is coming to an end. So if my

885
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: attention is dead, is for this to be great, for

886
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: us to have a ball, for this to be this

887
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 2: adventure that we both benefit from. Now you're gonna even

888
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 2: if you say, oh, that was a label. I heard

889
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: that before, or you just used a mirror on me.

890
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: You know you asked me about mirrors. That was a mirror,

891
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: then you're not gonna mind, because I'm trying to take

892
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 2: you to a better place.

893
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: Let's take a scenario like, let's say someone's negotiating for

894
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: a promotion or a higher salary. Let's go down that

895
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: road and act out what that would look like.

896
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: So I'm doing a training for a company probably about

897
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 2: two three years ago, got the CEO and all those

898
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: top salespeople on a zoom call. We get to Q

899
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 2: and A, and one of them says, how do I

900
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 2: negotiate a better salary? Bosses said listening, and I said,

901
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 2: ask him this question, how can I be guaranteed to

902
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 2: be involved in projects that are critical to the strategic

903
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: future of this organization? And he interrupts immediately, and I says,

904
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: I wish everybody here had ask me that question. So

905
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 2: the job negotiation is really about our future collaboratively now,

906
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: as much as you'd love for it to be about

907
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: what your contribution up to now has been. Your contribution

908
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 2: up to now, your boss is going to see that

909
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: you're even Here's what I asked you to do, is

910
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: what I agreed to pay you for doing it. Here

911
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: we are you did it, I paid you even. That's

912
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 2: how your boss is gonna say it. Your boss worried

913
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 2: about the future, worried about his own future, her own future,

914
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: worried about the organization's future. If you shift to how

915
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 2: do I make everybody successful? But not just in our

916
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: routine stuff and the most important stuff here, you show

917
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: them two things. You're a team player. You're going to

918
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: put the team first. And you want the high profile stuff.

919
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: You want to play in a championship. Your goal is

920
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: to win a championship. My goal isn't to win a

921
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:44,919
Speaker 2: scoring title. My goal is to win a team championship. Now,

922
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: suddenly it's about the future, a prosperous future. Like what

923
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 2: I mentioned before, we're now negotiating a prosperous future together

924
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 2: that changes everything.

925
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean just hearing you say that,

926
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: I was like the amount of times in my head

927
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm thinking as a leader, like I want people to

928
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: focus on business critical activities, Like I want people to

929
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: report to me on things that are like actually critical

930
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: to impact and having an effect and moving the needle

931
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: as opposed to, Yeah, we're doing the you know, we're

932
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: doing the little stuff. Everyone needs to do it. But

933
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: as a leader, you want your team to be focused

934
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: on and moving towards those bigger things. Yeah, And it's

935
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: hard because me included when I was an employee too.

936
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: It's you want to be rewarded for your effort. You

937
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: just want to be rewarded for your energy and showing

938
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: up and all of these things. But that isn't how

939
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: reward generally works, at least in the workplace.

940
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 2: Well at the maximum reward, you know, some some reward

941
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 2: works that way. Yeah, much, that is very valuable, you know,

942
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 2: can you follow directions? Okay, My girlfriend Wendy, members of

943
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 2: her family, they got this. They got this great camp

944
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 2: up state New York, wonderful place, wor up there visiting

945
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: at the end of the season. Every year they bring

946
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: family up and they get together and so they kind

947
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: of they see me as maybe this you know, this

948
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: white collar guy, you know, who never got his hands thirty,

949
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: hadn't been outside, which is is not my background. But

950
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 2: they're seeing me an FBI agent. You know, he probably

951
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 2: in white collar. You know, you never got thirty. So

952
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: we're getting ready to get out of there, and a

953
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: gentleman runs it, very generous guy. He says, you know,

954
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: you're welcome back anytime. And so I say, you know,

955
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 2: I'd come to work for you any day because I

956
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 2: like to be useful, and he goes, really, come to

957
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 2: work for me, Huh, what do you know how to do?

958
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 2: And I looked at him and I said, follow directions

959
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: and he went, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need more people

960
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: like that. So there's a lot to be said for

961
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 2: following directions, you know, the the mundane routine stuff that

962
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: needs to get done. You'll do well if you're great

963
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: at following directions, but you're not going to make as

964
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: much as you could make to have the maximum impact

965
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: on an organization, as you said, the business critical activities,

966
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 2: because also you as a leader, you're having trouble keeping

967
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: track of all the business critical activities. You need the

968
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,439
Speaker 2: team seeing stuff that's coming at you, you know, from

969
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: your six that you don't see rolling up on you,

970
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: and you're going to want people on the team to

971
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: understand the day to day and a business critical. So

972
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 2: when that media comes screaming in and you don't see

973
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,959
Speaker 2: it coming, they catch it for you. And so that's

974
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 2: what really takes people to the next level.

975
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the things I find is

976
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: that as a leader, like I enjoy rewarding people who

977
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: are performing phenomenally. Like it's exciting for me to see

978
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: someone who's performing phenomenally and they're developing themselves and I

979
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: can see that they're proactive and resourceful and they're growth oriented,

980
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: and as a leader, I get excited to be like, oh,

981
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: what can we build together? Like that's my mindset. But

982
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: I had a friend recently who went through a scenario

983
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 1: where he had gone up to his boss and said,

984
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: I want to work on really important things of the company.

985
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: I want to be associated with the biggest results we have.

986
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: He was told to work on these projects, he went

987
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: and got those results, they promised him a promotion, and

988
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: then two to three months later they went kind of

989
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: quiet on it, and then they said, oh, no, we

990
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: actually don't have it anymore. He's now been at this

991
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: company for two years and he hasn't received a promotion,

992
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: He hasn't received a direction on this is where it's going.

993
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: He's getting in some of the biggest results of the company,

994
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: but he's now not seeing any career growth there and

995
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: he's thinking of leaving. Right, he should leave, Yeah, but

996
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: I think his boss is thinking, oh, this guy's going

997
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: to hang around. So in that scenario where you're like,

998
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm hitting it. I was promised something,

999
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: it didn't happen. Now I don't how to negotiate that.

1000
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how to have that conversation. How do

1001
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:53,919
Speaker 1: you navigate that?

1002
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 2: Okay, there's two things. First of all, yeah, it's going

1003
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: to happen. One method tactical empathy, emotional intelligence, space negotiation

1004
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 2: doesn't work all the time, just works more than anything

1005
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: else does, which means there has to be an acceptance

1006
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: of occasionally it'll fail. Hostage negotiators got a ninety three

1007
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: percent success rate. People are not going to make the

1008
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: deal we call seven percenters. They're going to happen. So

1009
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 2: you move on now. Before if somebody's promised you something

1010
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: and they failed on their promise, that you earned this

1011
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 2: is all also an indicator of a company that's got

1012
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: culture problems, they got leadership problems, they got management problems.

1013
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 2: A long time ago, I heard the stat forty percent

1014
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 2: of the fortune five hundred is going to be gone

1015
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: in ten years. Those kinds of problems are going the

1016
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 2: way of the Dodo. They're going extinct. So your time

1017
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 2: there is coming to an end, whether you like it

1018
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: or not. They're going to go out of business, they're

1019
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: going to get sold. They're going to think of a

1020
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: stupid reason for firing you. Except that that timeframe now

1021
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: has its limits. If someone has failed to keep a

1022
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: promise that they should have kept, so that acceptance is

1023
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: am I going to go someplace? Elf? Start looking for

1024
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 2: someplace else because you've just added to your resume. You've

1025
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 2: made yourself more employable with these accomplishments for somebody who's

1026
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 2: dying to employ you, who's going to keep their word,

1027
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: They're going to keep their core values. If they lie

1028
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: to you, if they fail to keep a promise with you,

1029
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: that's the way they do business, they are going out

1030
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 2: of business. There is a problem. You've just been alerted

1031
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: to the problem. Now, short term interim how you potentially

1032
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 2: try to write to the ship before you get out

1033
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: no oriented question again, I'd sit down with the boss.

1034
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 2: I'd say, I'm sure that I seem very selfish and

1035
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: that I seem ignorant of the pressures that you're under

1036
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: and unappreciative of them. Do you want us to fail? No? Right? So? No, no,

1037
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 2: no no. Why what are you talking about? If you

1038
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: make it impossible for me to stay? How am I

1039
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 2: supposed to stay? How am I supposed to stay? If

1040
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: you've made promises to me, I've fulfilled my end of

1041
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 2: the bargain, and you're showing me that I was wasting

1042
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: my time. You know, it's a way of letting people

1043
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: see reality before you can be assertive. And this is

1044
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 2: being assertive, not aggressive, but assertive. You got to be empathic,

1045
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: should demonstrate some understanding where they're coming from. Ask the

1046
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 2: no oriented question, which is a way to trigger decision

1047
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: making in a non threatening way and let them know

1048
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: what the reality is. Reality. The situation is you can't

1049
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: count on a leader that doesn't keep their promises to you.

1050
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 2: You want to get to that moment with the conversation.

1051
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 2: You got to get there gently. How do you get

1052
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 2: there gently? Demonstrating and appreciation and an understanding of the

1053
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: other side's point of view. Give them a chance, give

1054
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 2: one clear chance to make things right. Let them know

1055
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: the reality of the situation is. You can't stay in

1056
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: a job where they're not going to keep their promises,

1057
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: even if you want to keep that job. How you

1058
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: do anything is how you do everything. They're breaking promises

1059
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 2: to you, they're breaking promises to everybody else. You're going

1060
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: to be tainted by their reputation and you're going to

1061
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: be taken down when as the Titanic hit an iceberg,

1062
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: that ship's getting ready to hit an iceberg and it's

1063
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: going to sink.

1064
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that resonates, and that kind of like

1065
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: a when you've been hard done by. That approach feels

1066
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: like you're having to turn up the dial on. You're

1067
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: starting off empathetic, but then there is a turn up

1068
01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: on like, well, this is the reality. Here's the reality,

1069
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: is the real of the situation. And I think that's

1070
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: a really powerful approach. So, Chris, of course you're aware

1071
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: of the agender pay gap, women paid less. What are

1072
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: women doing wrong or what can they do better in negotiation?

1073
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: What needs to change? Of course there's a systemic issue,

1074
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: but individually, individually.

1075
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: So I would answer this is if the woman asking

1076
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 2: that question was my daughter and she was asking me

1077
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 2: about a relationship and she said, Dad, I'm in a

1078
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 2: relationship with a guy who's beating me. How do I

1079
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: get them to treat me better? And my answer is

1080
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 2: get out of that relationship, all right. So paying any

1081
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 2: talent less than what they're worth is a bad core value,

1082
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 2: a bad culture value. And you're working someplace that's going

1083
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 2: to go out of business, So this relationship is coming

1084
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 2: to an end. My advice, my guidance, is the same

1085
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 2: as it would be for any other job negotiation. Talk

1086
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: about how you're going to make the best contribution possible.

1087
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 2: Find out what it takes to be successful there, express

1088
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 2: that you want to be paid in a playing a

1089
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 2: big game. So what you're doing, if you're working in

1090
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: a place is going to pay you less because of

1091
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: your gender. You're patting your resume. There's somebody out that

1092
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 2: wants talent, and they don't care anything about your gender,

1093
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 2: they don't care anything about your demographics. They want talent.

1094
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: You're in a relationship, You're in a bad relationship. And

1095
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: because it's a bad value to pay talent less then

1096
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 2: it's coming to an end one way or the other,

1097
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 2: just the same way as it's a boyfriend who's if

1098
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 2: he's not physically abusive, he's at least verbally abusive. That's

1099
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 2: coming to an end. Prepare yourself to move on. There

1100
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: are people that want talent, and in my company, I

1101
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 2: don't care, I want talent. We're not the only ones

1102
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: that are out there. There are a lot of companies

1103
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: that are taking advantage of women. The sooner you leave them,

1104
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 2: the better off everybody is. Find the company that values

1105
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: your contribute and moved to it.

1106
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: Nice advice. Great, tell us about some of your seven

1107
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: percent experiences that you said the ninety three percent in

1108
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: the seven percent. Tell us about have you some of

1109
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: your personal experiences have been in the seven percent when

1110
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: it's not working.

1111
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're actually far more common than I ever imagined

1112
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 2: would be in a business world like that. When when

1113
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 2: I wrote Never Split the Difference with Tall Raz and

1114
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: my son Brandon Voss, tremendous contributor to the book, it

1115
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: never occurred to me that there would be a lot

1116
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 2: of negotiations where the other side had no intention of

1117
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 2: consummating a deal. And we call that now proof of life.

1118
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 2: Is there a deal and is to deal with you?

1119
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,919
Speaker 2: Maybe there's a deal, it just ain't with you. Maybe

1120
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: they're just kicking the tires. Maybe they're just looking for

1121
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 2: free consulting. And I started to wake up to that

1122
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 2: and this is what falls into this category seven percenterg

1123
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 2: somebody's never going to make the deal. Right after I

1124
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: got out, started talking about negotiating and a gentleman who

1125
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: wrote a book I think, I think it it was

1126
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 2: bare knuckle bargaining, and he's talking about this thing in

1127
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: business called the rabbit, where you're the rabbit. You just

1128
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: said to drive the price down on the people that

1129
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 2: are really going to get the deal. And I remember

1130
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 2: at the time thinking like, no, that's that's I'm a

1131
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 2: time as money guy. That's a tremendous waste of time.

1132
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 2: Why would I ever engage in a negotiation with someone

1133
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 2: if I wasn't going to make the deal. I thought

1134
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 2: it was something from a Vince Vaughan movie, you know.

1135
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 2: I thought that's too stupid. And so we started discussing

1136
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 2: it with sales teams and one guy says, oh, yeah,

1137
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 2: that's in a Challenger sale. It's in that book. It's

1138
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 2: twenty percent twenty percent of the time. It's not seven

1139
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 2: percent of the time, it's twenty percent of the time.

1140
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 2: And in the book they did, they basically take a

1141
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 2: survey of a thousand executives and basically say how often

1142
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 2: do you engauge in a negotiation where you're never going

1143
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 2: to make the deal with the other side for whatever reason,

1144
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 2: You're just not going to give them the deal? And

1145
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: a business executive is admitted to twenty percent, which means

1146
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 2: that number's got to be low because they ask people

1147
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 2: how often do you lie? And they're not going to

1148
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 2: exaggerate how often they lie, They're going to underestimate. And

1149
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 2: so we started implementing the methodology on a regular basis.

1150
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 2: We see it all the time. Some of it is

1151
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 2: a due diligence issue. The Black Swan Group, we have

1152
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 2: a reputation deserved for teaching a business negotiation methodology that

1153
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 2: is more successful than anything else. Why would a company

1154
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 2: talk to us, Well, they've got an education provider they're

1155
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: going to stick with. So what they want to do

1156
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 2: is they want to get all the free consulting possible

1157
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 2: out of us so that we get this all the time.

1158
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 2: Tell us you know, tell us how you do what

1159
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 2: you do. You know, give us some insight. You know,

1160
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 2: how can we hire you if we don't know how

1161
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 2: you're going to do it. That's a tell of somebody

1162
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 2: who's pumping us for information. They're going to want us

1163
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 2: to get you. If you just tell us everything, then

1164
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 2: we'll hire you. Not only if you tell us everything

1165
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 2: what we hire you, we'll refer you to people that

1166
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 2: will hire you. Know, they paint this vision of riches,

1167
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 2: you know. I call it being taken hostage to the

1168
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: future prosperity that never materializes. We kind of cooperated a

1169
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 2: little bit in the early days, but now we just

1170
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 2: we get back to this saying like, all right, so

1171
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna see what's important to you and if you're

1172
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 2: really focused on one specific aspect. If I sense that

1173
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 2: you're not focused on a long term relationship, you're a

1174
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 2: seven percent. And then what am I gonna do? I'm

1175
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 2: gonna do. I'm gonna go all Oprah Winfrey on you.

1176
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say some really positive, very true things. We'd

1177
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 2: love to be the negotiation provider for you that gives

1178
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 2: your company prosperity that you've never seen before. And when

1179
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 2: you're willing to make a commitment to us. Come back,

1180
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: We'll make a commitment to you. Yeah, and they usually go.

1181
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: Usually hear crickets on the other end of the line,

1182
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 2: and that's the end of the conversation.

1183
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: So, Chris, as a follow up to that, I'm sure

1184
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: that for years you've had calls where a company will

1185
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 1: call you and say to you, Chris, we actually want that,

1186
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: but we wanted our half the price. And I'm imagining

1187
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 1: that a lot of people who are listening right now,

1188
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: whether they're entrepreneurs, whether they have a side hustle, whether

1189
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 1: they do a bit of design work here and there,

1190
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: they've had that call as well, where a client calls,

1191
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: they want this client, they're excited by it. And I

1192
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 1: want you to tell us the difference between the first

1193
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: time a fortune five hundred company reached out and now

1194
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: when you're established, because that obviously changes as well. Walk

1195
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: us through how do you negotiate or how do you

1196
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 1: deal with you really wanting to work with this client,

1197
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 1: but they're like, we want fifty percent off, Like that's

1198
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 1: what that's our budget, that's our max.

1199
01:08:55,800 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's simply it's accepting that working with them

1200
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 2: and half price is a bad idea. And it's not

1201
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 2: good for the health of the business long term. And

1202
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 2: then as soon as we accepted that, then realizing that

1203
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,679
Speaker 2: the less time we spent with people that want half price,

1204
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 2: they're actually obstructing the people that want to pay full price.

1205
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 2: You know, a good friend of mine a phrase that

1206
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 2: we use, Joe Polish. He's got to phrase their half

1207
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 2: clients and their elf clients. Half is hard, annoying, lame

1208
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 2: and frustrating. Elf is easily lucrative and fun. So in

1209
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 2: our in our early days, especially the.

1210
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 1: Two again, that was a brilliant hard.

1211
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 2: Annoying, lame, and frustrating halfs the ELF's easy, lucrative and fun.

1212
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: I love that.

1213
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 2: And Joe says, don't work with the halves, work with

1214
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 2: the elves. And I heard this, and and so if

1215
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 2: you're in the early days, if you're working for me,

1216
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 2: you figure that I want you to make every deal.

1217
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 2: And I get with my sales team and I say,

1218
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 2: all right, So the halves are going to have predictable

1219
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 2: behavior once we start looking for it. It's going to

1220
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 2: jump out at us and we'll be able to see

1221
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 2: it in the first half hour of the conversation. Now,

1222
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 2: now they're very good at this and that, of course

1223
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 2: was the truth. And then I said, we're going to

1224
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 2: walk away politely from them early on. I don't want

1225
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 2: you to wasting a lot of time. So the young

1226
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: lady that's running my sales team at the time, and

1227
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,719
Speaker 2: you know, comment on gender if I may. We find

1228
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 2: out women pick this style of negotiating up faster than men.

1229
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,839
Speaker 2: At the top level of performance. We see no difference.

1230
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:41,759
Speaker 2: It's gender agnostic. I believe that the women are conditioned

1231
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 2: at an early age to be aware of soft skills

1232
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 2: and they have a little bit of a head start,

1233
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 2: and that's why they have a tendency to pick it

1234
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 2: up faster than men. So women running the team, she

1235
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 2: wants to make every deal. So before she starts walking

1236
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 2: away from the halves, she starts pulling data. You know,

1237
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 2: you want your sales team to start looking for data.

1238
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 2: How long is it going to take to make the deal?

1239
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: How long is it going to take to implement the deal?

1240
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 2: What's our profitability? Consequently, she gets back to me a

1241
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,759
Speaker 2: couple weeks later, she says, here's what we found. Number one,

1242
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 2: it takes us two to five times the amount of

1243
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 2: time from the initial conversation to the end of performance

1244
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,759
Speaker 2: with a half two to five times as much time.

1245
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 2: So let's say it only takes twice as long. That

1246
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 2: means we've automatically taken a fifty percent cut and pay,

1247
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,679
Speaker 2: maybe on top of the discount they wanted, on top

1248
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 2: of everything else. She said. Then consequently, it doesn't really

1249
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 2: matter whether or not we want to do business with

1250
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 2: them again. They don't want to do business with us

1251
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 2: us again so they don't repeat. So these people that

1252
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 2: are demanding discounts, you're taking a fifty percent cut and

1253
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:03,520
Speaker 2: pay at least, and the business is not going to repeat.

1254
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 2: So you're taking a discount theoretically for a long term relationship,

1255
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 2: and you're not getting it. They're not appreciative of the

1256
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 2: fact that they got a discount. They want to take

1257
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 2: advantage of everybody. They're going to look for somebody else

1258
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 2: to victimize after they get done with you, and they

1259
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 2: are standing in the way of the people that want

1260
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 2: to do business with us. It's very dark in the

1261
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 2: early days of an entrepreneur, the concept of walking away

1262
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 2: from customers. It's horrifying. I got to make the rent,

1263
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 2: I got bills. Now you want me to walk away

1264
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 2: from these people? Well, it's going to take you twice

1265
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 2: as long to get paid, so they're not going to

1266
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 2: help you pay the rent now, and they're going to

1267
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 2: be slow payers even if you agree on a deal

1268
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,519
Speaker 2: then afterwards getting money out of them. You're not a

1269
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 2: loan business. So there's all these problems. And then as

1270
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: soon as we stop dealing with the have we found

1271
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 2: that the elves started showing up. You know, there's this

1272
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: invisible line of people waiting to do business with you,

1273
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:12,600
Speaker 2: and the people that are going to take up the

1274
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 2: most time in a line stop the people that take

1275
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 2: the least amount of time. That's a scary thought for

1276
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:23,639
Speaker 2: anybody entrepreneur to accept, and it's a leap of faith.

1277
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: And if you start looking around, you'll see entrepreneur after

1278
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 2: entrepreneur experiencing it. Kind of is a law of the

1279
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 2: entrepreneur universe.

1280
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think that's such great advice and

1281
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 1: it's so refreshing to hear that, because I think everyone

1282
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: feels that way, where it just like, I have to

1283
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 1: do this. This is going to be our big winner,

1284
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,879
Speaker 1: it's going to be our big ticket. But it always

1285
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: ends up going the opposite way when they're being a

1286
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 1: huff and It's such great advice because it could save

1287
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 1: you so much stress, save you so much pressure, and

1288
01:13:57,840 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: you're going to feel like you did a great job,

1289
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 1: you only got paid half. You might feel bitter. You're

1290
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 1: now resentful they didn't renew. It turns into a whole

1291
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 1: bigger emotional thing as well.

1292
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 2: It was awed money.

1293
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah when it doesn't need to. Yeah, Yeah, I want

1294
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: to shift away from work to relationships because I feel

1295
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 1: like so much of what you say applies to marriage,

1296
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: It applies to dating, it applies to you know, everyday

1297
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships and friendship. We touched on her a bit

1298
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: at the beginning, but I wanted to talk about this

1299
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: idea that I think a lot of the time we

1300
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 1: actually get an easy negotiation in the beginning, what it

1301
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 1: feels like, right, and then things start to get more constrained.

1302
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: So I have a friend who she met this guy

1303
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: and he promised her the world and he was like, yeah,

1304
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: it's going to be amazing, and I love you and

1305
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: you're amazing, and this is incredible, and it almost feels

1306
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 1: like you've just won the lottery. Right, It's like you're

1307
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: getting everything in this negotiation. He gives you time, he

1308
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: gives you energy, date, nights are amazing, Everything's great, and

1309
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,600
Speaker 1: then six months in he starts to pull back and go, no,

1310
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:02,719
Speaker 1: I need to focus on this now. No I can't

1311
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 1: call you every day. No I can't now. Not that

1312
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: any of those things are even unreasonable, they're actually reasonable things, right,

1313
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 1: But it's just that it's so different from what you

1314
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: thought you signed up for. What do you do as

1315
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,679
Speaker 1: a negotiation in that setting when you were promised more

1316
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:20,719
Speaker 1: or someone over delivered in the beginning and now they're

1317
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: under delivering.

1318
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 2: That's a real aspect of human nature, and so it's

1319
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 2: at some point in time there needs to be polite withdrawal,

1320
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, polite boundary setting. I think I think both

1321
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: people have you know, I don't know. I hate to

1322
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 2: say that any gender is more guilty than the other. Yeah, same,

1323
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 2: but I think that that men probably have a tendency

1324
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 2: to start adding to the neglect first. And then how

1325
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 2: how do you get advice? Like? How do we how

1326
01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 2: do we sustain this? How do you want me to

1327
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 2: feel about where we are now versus where we were? How? Questions? How?

1328
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 2: And what questions are remarkably powerful questions. We refer to

1329
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 2: them as calibrated question. The word what is primarily designed

1330
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 2: to uncover problems. The word how is primarily designed to

1331
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 2: create answers, so you can say what got us off track?

1332
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 2: Because you're off track now. It also feels very deferential,

1333
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 2: you know, how and what makes the other side feel

1334
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 2: in charge. People love to be asked how and what.

1335
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 2: The real issue of both those questions is not what

1336
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 2: the answers are. The thinking you made them engage in

1337
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 2: the answer is secondary. At some point in time, I

1338
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 2: can say what do you want from me? That's going

1339
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 2: to force you to see that there appears to be

1340
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:02,759
Speaker 2: a disconnect between the two of us. It doesn't matter

1341
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:06,759
Speaker 2: what you say. That's a secondary benefit, But the primary

1342
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 2: benefit is that I asked a question in the first place.

1343
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 2: You know, at the very beginning of the book, one

1344
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: of the more famous black Swan phrases is how am

1345
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 2: I supposed to do that? And I saw that as

1346
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 2: the first way to say no, you know, to telegraph

1347
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 2: to the other side that there's a problem coming. And

1348
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:30,640
Speaker 2: then my son Brandon points out it's forced empathy. If

1349
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 2: I say how am I supposed to do that? To you?

1350
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 2: You're forced to look at me and take stock of

1351
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 2: the position that I'm in. Your response to that is

1352
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 2: going to tell me exactly how much you care about that.

1353
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 2: That's a game changing phrase, and I realize now it's

1354
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 2: about implementation. I'm saying to you, like, look where we are,

1355
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 2: it's impossible for me to continue. How am I supposed

1356
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 2: to do that? Like eight out of ten times, that

1357
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 2: immediately changes the complexion of the conversation. It's so ridiculously

1358
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 2: effective that in the two out of ten times it

1359
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: doesn't work, people are just like, how am I supposed

1360
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,640
Speaker 2: to do that? And it backfired? It failed on me.

1361
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 2: They looked at me and said, I don't care how

1362
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 2: you do it, You just got to do it. And

1363
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 2: my answer to them is, no, it didn't fail. It

1364
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 2: gave you an answer you weren't expecting. If it's an

1365
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 2: implementation question, how am I supposed to continue in this relationship?

1366
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,400
Speaker 2: If you know you never talked to me, how am

1367
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 2: I supposed to continue? At the beginning, we had these

1368
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 2: amazing We had date nights, we had quality time together,

1369
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:41,640
Speaker 2: we were into each other, and they seemed to have

1370
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:46,440
Speaker 2: gone away. How am I supposed to maintain my relationship

1371
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 2: with you? Under these different set of circumstances? You know

1372
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,559
Speaker 2: that's not refusing to maintain it. What you're saying, what

1373
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 2: they hear. But what they hear is I'm about out

1374
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 2: of here, and it's a great warning. And so either

1375
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 2: they're going to change, they're going to wake up because

1376
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 2: there's some inadvertent human nature there, or they're going to

1377
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 2: be indifferent to your question. If they're indifferent, that's just

1378
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 2: given you a preview of a slowly descending future. Now

1379
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:25,880
Speaker 2: you got a hard decision to make. Be grateful for

1380
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,880
Speaker 2: the time, be willing to be smarter today than you

1381
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 2: were yesterday, and ultimately your default has got to be

1382
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 2: your own happiness.

1383
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And how do we do that in a way

1384
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 1: that we keep our personal emotions separate from those questions,

1385
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,080
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes you can ask those questions, but

1386
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 1: they're emotionally loaded. They're like things used to be amazing before,

1387
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 1: like you know, now you don't do anything, and they

1388
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 1: turn into not questions, they turn into demand else, yeah,

1389
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 1: or they turn into things that sound complaining, like oh,

1390
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: things were amazing before, like how do you expect me

1391
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 1: to And it sounds like a complaint as opposed to

1392
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: a question, which is what you're positioning it as. And

1393
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: I think that's because our emotion gets so close to

1394
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: the question, how do you keep your emotion separate and

1395
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,800
Speaker 1: go Actually, I need to negotiate effectively to get to

1396
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: where I want to get to, rather than sound like

1397
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 1: I'm complaining and now that person is only hearing the

1398
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: energy of the complaint as opposed to the explanation of

1399
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: what you're looking for.

1400
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 2: Well, the two possibilities are, can you talk it through

1401
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:31,680
Speaker 2: with a friend who's neutral, who's not going to give

1402
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 2: you advice. You need a sounding board. You don't need advice.

1403
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 2: You know what the answers are in point of fact,

1404
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 2: so the advice is a waste of time. One of

1405
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 2: the great things I realized why I was effective on

1406
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:44,760
Speaker 2: a suicide hotline. In many cases, I'm just a sounding board.

1407
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 2: I'm letting somebody say stuff out loud instead of having

1408
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 2: a bang around in their head, which is either confusing

1409
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 2: or it makes sense in a bad way, or you

1410
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 2: say stuff out loud and you get a better grip

1411
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 2: on it. So a friend who's a great sound board,

1412
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 2: and you could even say in advance, look, I'm not

1413
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 2: looking for advice. I'm just looking for a sounding board.

1414
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,200
Speaker 2: I want to talk this stuff out I want to

1415
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 2: hear what I'm thinking. That's one potential option. You got

1416
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 2: friends that always want to give advice anyway, so there's

1417
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 2: a little bit of a negotiation up front with that friend,

1418
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 2: or maybe certain friends are good for being sounding boards

1419
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,080
Speaker 2: and others aren't. Then, in a moment like what happens

1420
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:25,720
Speaker 2: if you didn't have the time to prepare, you catch

1421
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 2: yourself in a moment, which is similar to any negotiation.

1422
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 2: Suddenly you caught yourself in the middle, but your gut

1423
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 2: instinct is going to kick in. The mistake everybody makes

1424
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 2: is they want to deny the dynamic instead of observing it.

1425
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. I don't

1426
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,879
Speaker 2: want to sound like a whining, complaining, typical wining, complaining female.

1427
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 2: Instead say I'm probably gonna sound like a typical, whining,

1428
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 2: complaining female or whatever side of that argument that you're

1429
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 2: in argument, interaction, negotiation. If you simply call it out

1430
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 2: an advance, then the other side gets braced for it

1431
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:06,519
Speaker 2: and they deal with it. They don't get to you know,

1432
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:08,719
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like I'm complaining and any

1433
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 2: other person is saying, yeah, but you're gonna go ahead

1434
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 2: and complain. If you say I'm gonna sound like I'm complaining,

1435
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 2: that's that two millimeters shift. The other person will listen

1436
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 2: and then say, well, those are actually some legitimate points.

1437
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1438
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 2: So it's a combination of the two things, each of

1439
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:32,839
Speaker 2: which take practice. Like nobody automatically diffuses stuff in advance.

1440
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 2: Nobody automatically does if you got to the point where

1441
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 2: you're denying it, you're actually a little bit further down

1442
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 2: the line. You're aware of the dynamic. So now I'll

1443
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 2: just shift from denying to recognizing.

1444
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I was asked to give a

1445
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 1: keynote to one of my corporate clients a couple of

1446
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 1: months back, and when they were briefing me, they did

1447
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 1: a great job. They were like, Jay, this audience we

1448
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: feel is just on the cusp, ready for your message.

1449
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: So they said, usually they're used to dealing with much

1450
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,920
Speaker 1: more hard hitting speakers who are going to like pump

1451
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,720
Speaker 1: them up and motivate them, but we want them to

1452
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: move into this softer emotional intelligence, meditation, peace space. And

1453
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 1: they said that they're probably going to have their backs

1454
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:21,639
Speaker 1: up a bit when you walk in, because they'd expect

1455
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 1: someone who's you know, going to come in a bit more,

1456
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 1: but we really want you to be the person who

1457
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: takes them in this direction. So I was like, I

1458
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,720
Speaker 1: really appreciate that briefing because it was good for me

1459
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:34,919
Speaker 1: to have that. So I walk in to this conference

1460
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:36,760
Speaker 1: and I can tell what the person told me on

1461
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 1: the phone is immediately the truth I get announced. I

1462
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 1: walk out on stage. There's a few claps, but it's

1463
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 1: not the warmest reception I've ever had in my life.

1464
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 1: And I called it out. It was exactly what you said.

1465
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: I said, Look, I know you all think that meditation

1466
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:53,719
Speaker 1: is woo woo. I said, I know you all think

1467
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,879
Speaker 1: that you know stillness and peace and all this stuff

1468
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 1: is a bit intangible and it's a bit random. But

1469
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 1: I promise you everything I'm going to share with you

1470
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:04,479
Speaker 1: today is highly practical, tactical, and you're going to be

1471
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 1: able to implement it. And all of a sudden, I

1472
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 1: could see people change and what I was saying was true.

1473
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm very tactical about meditation and I'm very practical about philosophy.

1474
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 1: But the assumption people had was, oh, well, you know,

1475
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,680
Speaker 1: we just want someone to motivate us. And it was amazing,

1476
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:24,599
Speaker 1: Like that felt like one of the biggest wins that.

1477
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 1: I mean, the presentation went off on a beautiful arc.

1478
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 1: I felt such a great rapport with the audience. And

1479
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you just said. It was recognizing and

1480
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 1: again going back to your earlier point, summarizing what their

1481
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 1: point of view was and recognizing that that was okay.

1482
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,400
Speaker 1: It's not that they were wrong. It's not that they

1483
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: were flawed or that they weren't smart enough. It wasn't condescending.

1484
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 1: It was genuine that they had certain beliefs about meditation

1485
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:53,599
Speaker 1: and philosophy that could be true, but that I wasn't

1486
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:57,040
Speaker 1: presenting it that way, right. So I love that, And

1487
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 1: it was probably one of my favorite speaking experiences because

1488
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:02,040
Speaker 1: it felt like such a challenge to have to turn

1489
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:02,599
Speaker 1: it around.

1490
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then then it's highly satisfying retrospect, right. Yeah,

1491
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 2: and you did it with them invisibly, like they didn't

1492
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:11,839
Speaker 2: know what happened. Yeah, it just happened.

1493
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It was really special when someone's in a

1494
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:18,840
Speaker 1: relationship and they're like, I want to I want to

1495
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: get my partner to do more personal growth. I want

1496
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,640
Speaker 1: to get my partner to maybe it'll be open up

1497
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: to therapy. I want to get my you know, and

1498
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 1: I hear this a lot. I'm sure you hear it too,

1499
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 1: But I hear a lot of people tell me I

1500
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: want my partner too, right, they want their partner to

1501
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: become something or do something. How do you negotiate that

1502
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:38,960
Speaker 1: and how should that person change their mindset in order

1503
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,519
Speaker 1: to make it a healthier thing than a demand.

1504
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 2: The real fundamental issue is is this a right relationship? Like,

1505
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 2: is this behavior that's consistent with the things that you

1506
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 2: value and the things that they value. That's the first

1507
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: issue of my company gets coached on EOS. Jonathan Smith

1508
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,559
Speaker 2: is or US coach, and I remember the first time

1509
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 2: we sit down with Jonathan. He said, all right, so

1510
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:07,720
Speaker 2: what are your core values? I'm like, what do you mean,

1511
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 2: work hard, be honest? What more is there learn? You know,

1512
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 2: have a sense of humor. He's like, no, no, no, no.

1513
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 2: So first of all, it's a little more complicated than that. Secondly,

1514
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,560
Speaker 2: he said, then all of your relationships, you'll find, all

1515
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,280
Speaker 2: business and personal succeed or fail based on alignment of

1516
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:30,320
Speaker 2: core values. Like oh wow, okay, that makes sense. So

1517
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,720
Speaker 2: does this have to do with the relationship? Is it

1518
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 2: behavior change that you're seeking from the other person consistent

1519
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 2: with the core values that you share. Now you don't

1520
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 2: have to share every core value, but you kind of

1521
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 2: need to share about eighty percent of them. And if

1522
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 2: the behavior you're asking for is really disguised for a

1523
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 2: change and a value, it's not going to happen. And

1524
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,759
Speaker 2: the hard part is accepting that you can value someone.

1525
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:09,479
Speaker 2: They can remain your friend. You can still have a

1526
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 2: positive relationship, but not that intimate relationship, not that that

1527
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 2: lifelong commitment which the vast majority of us are driving for,

1528
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 2: you know, this great phenomenal, collaborative, long term relationship of trust.

1529
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 2: So what I would ask is for the person to say,

1530
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 2: does this fall with it? Do we share enough values?

1531
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:36,240
Speaker 2: This is worth the trouble? And then the conversation is

1532
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:40,280
Speaker 2: that I'm now talking about a behavior change that consistent

1533
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 2: with the values that they hold. If the behavior change

1534
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,160
Speaker 2: is inconsistent with the values that they hold, they ain't

1535
01:27:46,200 --> 01:27:48,919
Speaker 2: never going to change. And we're both going to be miserable,

1536
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 2: and we're going to waste two to two to five

1537
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 2: to seven years of our lives. And hopefully the only

1538
01:27:56,360 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 2: upside will be when this is over. I'm smarter. Yeah,

1539
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 2: And that some of this is It's taken me a

1540
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 2: really long time to come to accept the reality of

1541
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 2: it that we're not helping each other. If we're not

1542
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:14,559
Speaker 2: in the right relationship, you're not helping them, they're not

1543
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,799
Speaker 2: helping you, and you can value them as human beings

1544
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:20,880
Speaker 2: and you can wish them well. So the first question

1545
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 2: is is the behavior change I want consistent with the

1546
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 2: values that we share. Now you can start talking about

1547
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 2: it within that light, so sounds like we share this value. Consequently,

1548
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 2: here's how I think we can manifest it together so

1549
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 2: that we have a deeper relationship. In that context, there's

1550
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:50,840
Speaker 2: a conversation if it's about the other person being happier too,

1551
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 2: not just you being happier at their expense, but it's

1552
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 2: about both of you being happier together, and it's really

1553
01:28:59,520 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 2: going to line up to what are the values?

1554
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you've then on had the I believe

1555
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:08,439
Speaker 1: the challenge is that we want people to respect our

1556
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 1: values because in some way we disrespect theirs. So we

1557
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 1: want people to value what we value because we actually

1558
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:20,759
Speaker 1: don't like their values. And I find that that twenty

1559
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:25,080
Speaker 1: percent you're talking about around where you don't have to

1560
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 1: have the same shared values. I think that's when you

1561
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:29,719
Speaker 1: actually respect. Wait a minute, they have a different value

1562
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:32,360
Speaker 1: to me in this area, and that's okay. Let me

1563
01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:36,120
Speaker 1: learn to value that, and hopefully they'll learn to value

1564
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 1: my differing value. And hey, guess what, we may not

1565
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,599
Speaker 1: value the same things in this area, but I respect

1566
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,519
Speaker 1: that person for their values because I understand how they

1567
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,679
Speaker 1: got to their and I understand why they have that value,

1568
01:29:47,840 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 1: and we don't have to have the same one. And

1569
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:54,519
Speaker 1: I find that we're constantly we feel like if someone

1570
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 1: doesn't have the same exact values as us and value

1571
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 1: the same exact things, then that we can't connect the two, right,

1572
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: And I feel like you're going to run out of

1573
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 1: people chasing people across the world trying to find someone

1574
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: who values what you value in exactly the same way.

1575
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 1: Two people can value their family, but they can mean

1576
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:16,479
Speaker 1: two totally different things, right, Yeah, I find that we

1577
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: need to get beyond this idea of my values are

1578
01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: the most important and they're all that value, and if

1579
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:25,639
Speaker 1: you don't value that, then we can't get anywhere.

1580
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,680
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, I agree, And and be curious about the

1581
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 2: other side values exactly, and then how is it added?

1582
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 2: How is it added to your life?

1583
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1584
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 2: My girlfriend Wendy. Again, she get relationships with people that

1585
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,680
Speaker 2: she and she keeps in touch with people she's known

1586
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 2: since she was seven years old. I don't have those

1587
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 2: kind of relationships, you know, I haven't worked that hard

1588
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 2: at it. Some of those people are still alive, but

1589
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 2: I rarely talk to them. And She's really opened my

1590
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 2: eyes and so so many ways to the value of

1591
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:58,640
Speaker 2: these great long term relationships, even with people that you

1592
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:03,519
Speaker 2: disagree with rationally, you know, you're a Democrat, there, Republican,

1593
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. But you know she's maintaining

1594
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 2: those relationships and there's a richness to her life that

1595
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:13,240
Speaker 2: I have not maintained that I see it manifest itself,

1596
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 2: and you know, I want to learn from it.

1597
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:18,000
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. The books go, never split the difference? Do

1598
01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:19,360
Speaker 1: you ever split the difference?

1599
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:20,400
Speaker 2: No? Never?

1600
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 1: Now Now in relationship is not business, not so here's

1601
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:24,479
Speaker 1: a caveat though.

1602
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 2: There's a difference between splitting and blending. Okay, you know,

1603
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 2: maybe this is too cerebral of an analogy, but steel

1604
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 2: is two percent carbon ninety eight percent iron. That ain't

1605
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:49,640
Speaker 2: splitting the difference. What's the proper blend? If there is

1606
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 2: a blend, so that what we come up with is

1607
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 2: a better product. Now two percent ninety eight percent split

1608
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 2: in human nature be like, oh my god, now you know.

1609
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 2: Or if I contributed two percent, I want fifty percent

1610
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 2: of the profit. Now you only contributed two percent, Well,

1611
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter that we're far more better off. So

1612
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 2: splitting the difference is not really about finding the best blend.

1613
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 2: Or then never split the difference might also mean that

1614
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 2: you're one hundred percent right and I'm one hundred percent wrong.

1615
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 2: One of my favorite negotiations from Georgetown husband a wife

1616
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:31,960
Speaker 2: in a discussion over a real tree versus artificial tree

1617
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 2: Christmas tree. Husband wants an artificial tree for all the

1618
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 2: practical reasons. He thinks his wife is being unreasonable, unpredictable,

1619
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 2: too emotional about a real tree. And he's a student,

1620
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 2: so he uses, he thinks to get his way. A

1621
01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:57,280
Speaker 2: great label sounds like having a real tree meant a

1622
01:32:57,320 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 2: lot to you growing up, because he's he's digging in deep.

1623
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 2: If if somebody's really seemingly irrationally sticking to something, it's

1624
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,880
Speaker 2: not some reason, It is not the last twenty four hours,

1625
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 2: it may be twenty years ago. And so then she

1626
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:19,040
Speaker 2: opens up and finally lays out all the reasons for

1627
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:26,320
Speaker 2: the real tree. He realizes she's completely right. Her goals

1628
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 2: are much loftier and more long lasting than his are

1629
01:33:31,200 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 2: they get a real tree. So never split the difference

1630
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 2: is also being willing to entertain the idea that the

1631
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:42,360
Speaker 2: other side's got insight that you don't have, and you've

1632
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:44,160
Speaker 2: got to be open to it and be willing to

1633
01:33:44,240 --> 01:33:47,000
Speaker 2: accept it, which is the same thing you want from them.

1634
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 2: It's just making this a two way street.

1635
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,519
Speaker 1: That's a great answer. I love that Chris has been

1636
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 1: such a joy talking to you today, and I know

1637
01:33:55,040 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 1: that people I hope are going to run and get

1638
01:33:57,439 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 1: the book. Never split the difference. But you always have

1639
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: a documentary out you're talking about someone you to share

1640
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 1: that with us.

1641
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just came out. It's called Tactical Empathy. It's

1642
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:08,439
Speaker 2: on Amazon. We shot it with DNA Films Nick Natton,

1643
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 2: Emmy winning producer, and it's really sort of about the

1644
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 2: history of the hostage sieges and how they turned out

1645
01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 2: and what we learned from and we collectively. You know,

1646
01:34:21,360 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 2: my son Brandon is featured in the documentary. There's a phrase,

1647
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:29,800
Speaker 2: empathy is a sneak attack on racism. Empathy produces better

1648
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 2: decision making. And when Nick came to me about the film,

1649
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:39,839
Speaker 2: I said, you know, they're enough law enforcement disadvantaged community

1650
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 2: problems that I think empathy is going to go a

1651
01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:45,559
Speaker 2: long way towards solving not all of them, just most

1652
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 2: of them. And if you're rid of most of them,

1653
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 2: that's a pretty good start. So we're going to categorize.

1654
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 2: This is going to be designed to show how law

1655
01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 2: enforcement hearing people out is going to tamp down a

1656
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:05,680
Speaker 2: lot of the flames, if you will. So then we

1657
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:09,519
Speaker 2: end up at about the same time I get approached

1658
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,559
Speaker 2: by NYPD. They want me to come and do a

1659
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,280
Speaker 2: training for They've got critical people that they want emotional

1660
01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:19,559
Speaker 2: intelligence training for. They want to plan a seed because

1661
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,720
Speaker 2: they want a more effective NYPD, which is a more

1662
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 2: pathic NYPD. And I said, all right, so here's the deal.

1663
01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:34,599
Speaker 2: Let us film it for the documentary and my son

1664
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 2: Brandon is going to do the training, not me. You

1665
01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:41,080
Speaker 2: get us for a full day. Brandon is as good

1666
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:45,000
Speaker 2: or better at this than I am. And the interesting

1667
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 2: additional feature is my son brand his mother's African American

1668
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:53,000
Speaker 2: effectively to the world he is African American, big Boy,

1669
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:58,400
Speaker 2: Big big guy played lineman in college football, sizeable human being,

1670
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:00,840
Speaker 2: the very kind of guy that if he got out

1671
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 2: of his car, will cause most police officers to think

1672
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 2: they got to fight on their hands just by looking

1673
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:10,439
Speaker 2: at him. He's going to do the training, and so

1674
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:14,560
Speaker 2: we've got a segment in there Brandon doing this phenomenal

1675
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 2: training for these guys and showing them how empathy is

1676
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:21,920
Speaker 2: going to make you more effective. It's going to build

1677
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 2: bridges in the community. Community's got problems with law enforcement

1678
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 2: that you didn't create. You stepped into this job trying

1679
01:36:29,240 --> 01:36:32,479
Speaker 2: to do the right thing. That doesn't matter of the

1680
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 2: baggage between the communities. You got to deal with that.

1681
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,840
Speaker 2: So there's also besides the history of the company and

1682
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 2: some pretty good hostage stories. Then we're trying to back

1683
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:47,599
Speaker 2: into police community relationships a little bit with the doc

1684
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:52,559
Speaker 2: and I hope it helps law enforcement get better training

1685
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:58,000
Speaker 2: so that there's less problems with the disadvantaged communities.

1686
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. What's it quote Tactical Empathy on Amazon on

1687
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 1: Amazon Awesome. I can't wait to watch it. Sounds fantastic, Chris,

1688
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:08,559
Speaker 1: it has been such a pleasure talking to you. We

1689
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 1: end every episode of on Purpose with a final five

1690
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:14,679
Speaker 1: or a fast five. Each question has to be answered

1691
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:18,400
Speaker 1: with one sentence maximum it's a lightning round lighting the

1692
01:37:18,479 --> 01:37:20,960
Speaker 1: lightning ryeah one sentence.

1693
01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I get to proceed to the championship level. Y.

1694
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, all right, So Chris Vast, these are your

1695
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,759
Speaker 1: fast five. So question number one, Chris, what's the best

1696
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:32,639
Speaker 1: advice you've ever heard or received?

1697
01:37:33,120 --> 01:37:36,520
Speaker 2: Never take directions from somebody you in trade places.

1698
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 1: With Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever

1699
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 1: heard or received?

1700
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,960
Speaker 2: Wow? You know, hang in there just to prove them wrong.

1701
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:50,759
Speaker 1: Third thing, how would you define your current purpose?

1702
01:37:52,240 --> 01:37:53,360
Speaker 2: Make it a world better place?

1703
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:58,280
Speaker 1: Question number four? Why is empathy not a weakness?

1704
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:05,640
Speaker 2: Ah, Empathy is strength, Empathy is reasoning. Empathy is a superpower,

1705
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:08,520
Speaker 2: and it's got nothing to do with weakness.

1706
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 1: And fifth and final question. We asked this to every

1707
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 1: guest who's ever been on the show. If you could

1708
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,479
Speaker 1: create a law that everyone in the world had to follow,

1709
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:17,799
Speaker 1: what would it be?

1710
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 2: Be nice first?

1711
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 1: Nice guys don't finish last?

1712
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, Well you don't got to stay nice. You's

1713
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:26,479
Speaker 2: got to be nice first, got it?

1714
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:28,840
Speaker 1: I love it, Chris Voss. Everyone in the book is

1715
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:32,920
Speaker 1: called never split the difference. The documentary is called Tactical Empathy.

1716
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful Chris for your time and energy. I

1717
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:37,000
Speaker 1: hope we get to do this again. This was just

1718
01:38:37,080 --> 01:38:39,559
Speaker 1: the beginning of our relationship and I feel like I

1719
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 1: learned so much. This is definitely an episode I'm going

1720
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 1: to listen to again, and I highly recommend you all

1721
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:46,880
Speaker 1: go and read the book because there are so many

1722
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:51,080
Speaker 1: great insights, principles, tips, strategies and stories inside of it,

1723
01:38:51,240 --> 01:38:53,959
Speaker 1: and of course go and watch the doc on Amazon

1724
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 1: Tactical Empathy. Chris, thank you so much for being here.

1725
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 1: So grateful.

1726
01:38:57,560 --> 01:38:58,160
Speaker 2: There's a pleasure.

1727
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:01,879
Speaker 1: Good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for listening

1728
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:05,120
Speaker 1: to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my

1729
01:39:05,320 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 1: chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key

1730
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:13,320
Speaker 1: to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.

1731
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:15,839
Speaker 1: If you know you want to be more and achieve

1732
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:18,599
Speaker 1: more this year, go check it out right now.

1733
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:21,479
Speaker 2: You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,

1734
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:24,880
Speaker 2: and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.

1735
01:39:24,920 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 2: There's no sense of meaning and purpose. You sort of

1736
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 2: expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it

1737
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:29,799
Speaker 2: didn't happen