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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and today I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about spending life wisely with Vicky Robin. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about money, meaning, and time. Okay, so the

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Speaker 1: quality of your life pretty much exists outside of the

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Speaker 1: realm of money. That is a quote from my guest

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Speaker 1: today here at How to Money, we talk regularly about

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Speaker 1: how money is a tool. It's an important one, of course,

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Speaker 1: but kind of like the adage about dying with the

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Speaker 1: most toys, it's really easy to see how taking the

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Speaker 1: approach of maximizing your wealth accumulation would leave you wanting.

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Speaker 1: And so Vicky Robin, she's all about helping folks change

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Speaker 1: her relationship to money. She has been for many decades.

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Speaker 1: She's doing a lot of other stuff now which I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to talk to her about as well. But she

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Speaker 1: helped start a movement back in nineteen ninety two with

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Speaker 1: her co author Joe Dominguez when they released the book

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Speaker 1: Your Money or Your Life. And I have so much

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Speaker 1: respect for the work that she's done and for her thoughtfulness. So,

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Speaker 1: VICKI thank you so much for joining me today on

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Of course, what do you like to splurge on my cost.

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Speaker 1: Matt and I we splurge on fancy craft beer. We

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Speaker 1: talk about that regularly. God, but it gives us an

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Speaker 1: insight into who you are. While you're doing smart things

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Speaker 1: with your money, what maybe do you let loose on

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Speaker 1: a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just splurged on three Broadway shows in three

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Speaker 2: nights in New York City by buying from buying last

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Speaker 2: minute tickets for a pittance compared to what they usually caused.

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Speaker 2: But I would say my total splurge is throught stores.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a frugal splurge, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean I can get out of there for like

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Speaker 2: five or ten dollars and fancy up. And just when

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Speaker 2: I was in New York, I passed quickly through Macy's

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Speaker 2: and it's just like astonishing how much things cat. So

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Speaker 2: it's not only that I have the thing, but I

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Speaker 2: feel smart because I got smarted the people who bought

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Speaker 2: it new.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, oh, I think you briefly mentioned going to

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Speaker 1: three Broadway shows. I think is amazing. I'm jealous. And

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Speaker 1: you mentioned getting last minute tickets for cheap. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to let my listeners know how you did that?

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Speaker 2: I just looked up online last minute tickets, and I

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Speaker 2: got to a site I think it called Today's Today

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Speaker 2: Tics or something like that, and I was able to

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Speaker 2: score tickets, you know. And it's not as cheap as

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Speaker 2: going to show at my local theater. But I think

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Speaker 2: I spent for three Broadway shows. I think I spent

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Speaker 2: under two hundred dollars, which, when you come right down

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Speaker 2: to it, is a bargain.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty good for top notch theater.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And also I just I spotted some seats down

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Speaker 2: in the orchestra that were empty, and so an intermission

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Speaker 2: I went down. That's also frugality. It's just keeping an

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Speaker 2: eye out for bargains.

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Speaker 1: That's what I used to do at the baseball games.

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Speaker 1: I would buy the cheap seats and make friends with

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Speaker 1: the ushers in the better sections. I still remember Joyce

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite ushers, and she would always let

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Speaker 1: us sit or most of the time, if they had availability,

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Speaker 1: Wou'd let us sit down there. So exactly, Joyce was awesome. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you talk about frugality, you grew up hyperfrugal. You're talk

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Speaker 1: to me about maybe how you were taught about money

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Speaker 1: as a child.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was complex because my father's family sailed through

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Speaker 2: the depression because my grandfather was a personal physician to

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Speaker 2: erin a DuPont like a DuPont corporation. So they made up.

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Speaker 2: But my mother's family lost all their money. The only

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Speaker 2: thing they didn't lose in the depression is their pretentiousness.

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Speaker 2: So so I had this strange combination of a household

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Speaker 2: where my mother just took us to bargain basement. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, she was People who lived through the depression

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Speaker 2: in that way never achieved relaxation with wealth, even if

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Speaker 2: they married into it. That's what I think. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: so yeah, but I learned to be frugal, and then

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Speaker 2: that came in good stead because my junior year, I

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Speaker 2: took the money for my junior year and I spent

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Speaker 2: a year and a half in Europe and did my

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Speaker 2: junior year in Spain and came back fluent, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I completed my major. But yeah, it's just it

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Speaker 2: was a simple lesson. It's like the less I spend,

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Speaker 2: the further it goes. And so like I had a

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Speaker 2: little Volkswagen bug and I would pack my car with

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Speaker 2: five people and bagattes and oranges, and we would go

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Speaker 2: to every corner of Spain, so you know, you add

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Speaker 2: another person to the car and it's less expensive. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I learned all the tricks by that desire to continue

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Speaker 2: the adventure, And that's pretty much my personality.

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Speaker 1: Did any part of you want to rebel against frugality

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Speaker 1: at any point in time where you like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I see how this works, but kind of also want

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Speaker 1: to see what it's like to spend too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, after Joe Domingus died and I was liberated to

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Speaker 2: explore many other interests that I sort of put on

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Speaker 2: the side because of our mission with your Money of

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Speaker 2: your Life, I realized that I felt I kept myself

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Speaker 2: to a very high standard of frugality while I was

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Speaker 2: the avatar for this book. And I don't know about

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Speaker 2: twenty years ago, when I moved to the town I

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Speaker 2: live in and with Solo, I realized my frugality is

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Speaker 2: like it's like I have a little cash register in

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Speaker 2: my head, you know, so if I spend five dollars,

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Speaker 2: if I splurge five dollars at the thrist store, I

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Speaker 2: have to save five dollars at.

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Speaker 1: The crisis.

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Speaker 2: Like no, no, no, no no, we have to get

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Speaker 2: rid of this. And it was not that easy, was

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Speaker 2: It was sort of like it was like some of

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Speaker 2: this internalized domination of my own consciousness in service to

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Speaker 2: a higher purpose. You know. I wanted to spread the word,

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Speaker 2: and not just because I mean it wasn't because of

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Speaker 2: the nine step program or because of creating a bestseller,

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Speaker 2: but because I was so aware from nineteen eighty nine

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Speaker 2: on that we were already in what's called overshoot we

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Speaker 2: were using more of the planet's biocapacity than the planet

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Speaker 2: can afford every year or so. In other words, we

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Speaker 2: were drawing down the ecological bank account. And that terrified

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Speaker 2: me because pretty much you know you can use that up. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know you can use that up. And I thought like, okay,

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Speaker 2: this program will help people be more frugal, and the frugality,

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Speaker 2: the frugality itself was my goal. Sort of collective frugality

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Speaker 2: would take some of the human pressure of consumption off

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Speaker 2: the living earth, if that isn't too convoluted. But that

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Speaker 2: really was my motivation.

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Speaker 1: Well, part of the reason I think your message resonated

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Speaker 1: at that point in time is because of how you

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Speaker 1: tied everything to You connected the dots to like life energy, right,

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Speaker 1: and what we trade in order to live the lives

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Speaker 1: of in an American consumeristic culture, and how every dollar

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Speaker 1: we spend we're trading a piece of this finite time

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Speaker 1: on our earth. How did y'all connect those dots and

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Speaker 1: then spread that message.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have to say that the program itself was

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Speaker 2: developed by Joe Domingus for his own early retirement. He

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Speaker 2: had that goal from the time he was twelve. Really,

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Speaker 2: according to his own stories, he grew up in Spanish

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Speaker 2: Harlem and he saw through the whole game of money

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Speaker 2: very early on. He saw how people were run by money,

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Speaker 2: and so he said, like, I don't want to spend

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Speaker 2: my life on that. So it was like he treated

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Speaker 2: money like military service. You know, you put in your

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Speaker 2: time and then you get to go on to do

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Speaker 2: the other thing. And so it was his strategy, his

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Speaker 2: sort of engineering mind about, you know, tracking flows through

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Speaker 2: systems that got him onto this tracking and evaluating the

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Speaker 2: flow of money and stuff through our lives. And for me,

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Speaker 2: I partnered with him to promote the first the seminars

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Speaker 2: and then eventually to write the book. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I went out in the road to publicize it because

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a strategy for lowering consumption in

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Speaker 2: North America. And so I wasn't the one who came

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Speaker 2: up with that idea. He came up with that idea,

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Speaker 2: and then I recognized that that idea had the power

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Speaker 2: to change behavior. So it was like it was it

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Speaker 2: was a perfect marriage of his engineering mind and my

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Speaker 2: social marketing relational mind.

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Speaker 1: How how does one live in a consumeristic society without

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Speaker 1: fully buying into a consumeristic ethos? So, like Vicky, You're

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Speaker 1: probably not single handedly going to bring.

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Speaker 2: Down the no I'm counting on you. I'm counting on

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Speaker 2: you to do that and your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's touching one person at a time,

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Speaker 1: a couple hundred people here, thousands of people maybe in

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Speaker 1: larger settings, and each each person trying to make individual

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Speaker 1: changes in their lives based on a mindset shift. So,

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Speaker 1: so how do we maybe adopt that mindset shift and say,

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Speaker 1: I know I live in this society where everything is

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Speaker 1: run by consumption, how do I not be run by it?

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Speaker 2: One of the things, and this is very your money

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Speaker 2: of your life is you apply apply consciousness to the

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Speaker 2: flow of money and stuff through your life. And so

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Speaker 2: consciousness is taking a moment out of the unconscious behavior

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Speaker 2: and going up into a little platform and looking at

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Speaker 2: the behavior down there in the valley and saying, is

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Speaker 2: how I'm earning and spending my money buying me a

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Speaker 2: life I love. So you're applying consciousness from at different

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Speaker 2: points along the consumption stream, and that consciousness itself, I

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Speaker 2: think will lower your consumption. We studied people when we

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Speaker 2: were doing the live seminar. We studied people who had

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Speaker 2: followed the program for at least six months, and to

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Speaker 2: the person, they said they were spending more or less

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Speaker 2: twenty percent less, and many people said they didn't even

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Speaker 2: know where the money had been going. And almost all

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Speaker 2: of them said they were happier. So that was a

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Speaker 2: little data point for that. So, I mean, one of

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Speaker 2: the tricks is consciousness. It's not that kind of angry

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Speaker 2: consciousness of like I'm not going to cooperate with a

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Speaker 2: our society, those corporations aren't gonna lie inhabit in my mind.

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Speaker 2: It's not that although that's a fun game. It's more

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Speaker 2: like it's like more like self defense, like I have

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Speaker 2: better things to do with my life. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 2: it's not a negative no no, no, shouldn't do It's

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Speaker 2: a positive who am I in this world and what

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Speaker 2: brings me the most joy. So that's idea number one.

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Speaker 2: Idea number two is that as you do the program

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Speaker 2: in your money, your life, or whatever strategy you want,

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Speaker 2: you start to discover that money is not the only

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Speaker 2: means of exchange. It's one means of exchange and it

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Speaker 2: dominates our consciousness. But relationship is a means of exchange.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like if you live in a household, I

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Speaker 2: hope you're not charging your family for doing dishes. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's like your circle of we the circle of people

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Speaker 2: that you feel related to in some way or another.

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Speaker 2: You don't charge them. I don't like have a walk

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Speaker 2: with a friend and listen to her problems and go

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Speaker 2: like chit ching, that's thirty bucks, you know. So you

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Speaker 2: start to realize that, Like it's not like you strategize

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Speaker 2: I'm going to build a friendship network so I can

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Speaker 2: save money on therapy, but you recognize that having someone

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Speaker 2: listen to you and give you some feedback about your

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Speaker 2: blind spots does not only happen through therapy. It happens

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Speaker 2: through friendship, It happens through meditation, it happens through you know,

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Speaker 2: like what I always call stepping on the rake in

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Speaker 2: the tall grass and having it walk you in the faith.

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Speaker 2: You know's it happens through life experiences that you have

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Speaker 2: to learn from. So once you start thinking about, like

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Speaker 2: how am I creating well being outside of the money economy,

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Speaker 2: you start to see it and it's like things that

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Speaker 2: are fun, Like I went to those Broadway shows for sure,

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Speaker 2: because I was in New York and that was super

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Speaker 2: fun for me. But a lot of my fun is

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Speaker 2: just hanging out with friends, you know, And like my

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Speaker 2: fun is I love theater, I mean, and being in theater.

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Speaker 2: You know. So if I'm in a play or something

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Speaker 2: that's cool, or if I you know, you volunteer to

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Speaker 2: usher for a play, I can. I can go in

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Speaker 2: for free, you know. I mean, it's not that hard

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Speaker 2: once you're thinking about it, silo by silo of your spending,

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Speaker 2: it's not that hard to see that money is not

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Speaker 2: the only way you meet your needs. You don't have

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Speaker 2: to buy books, you can get them free from the library.

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Speaker 1: True, you know, our lives have become so complex though

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Speaker 1: it feels like it. And I think maybe you're such

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Speaker 1: an advocate of simple living, and is there something about

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Speaker 1: like how do we simplify. If our lives have gotten

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Speaker 1: so complex and it feels like money's going in one

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Speaker 1: hundred different directions because we live such complex lives, how

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Speaker 1: do we start to dial that back? It almost feels

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Speaker 1: like it's like these these strands that of string and

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Speaker 1: that are all mixed up. You've had to deal with

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Speaker 1: that like a ball of yarn that's like completely messed out.

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Speaker 1: How do you even start to untangle that?

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Speaker 2: I think that's you know, that's not a simple question

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Speaker 2: with a simple answer. Before we're conscious, you know, we

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Speaker 2: basically lace our we bundle our lives up, you know,

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Speaker 2: before we're conscious, where it's like, Okay, I have a

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Speaker 2: problem with unhappiness, I'll solve it with a therapist. Then

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Speaker 2: I have a problem with my therapists, and I'll solve

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Speaker 2: it with booze orus. You know. It's like it's like

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Speaker 2: we keep solving problems with more products, and so eventually

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Speaker 2: or even you know, I mean I feel for people

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Speaker 2: who come out of college or mid school, you know it,

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Speaker 2: with so much debt, there isn't an option other than bankruptcy,

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Speaker 2: and so we get on the sort of poisoned gravy

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Speaker 2: train really early on. So I think like problems your

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Speaker 2: money of your life. It's not the only one. I

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Speaker 2: would say that your money your life is a tool

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Speaker 2: for consciousness. It's not consciousness. You start applying consciousness to that, Like,

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Speaker 2: is this working for me? How else can I do this?

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Speaker 2: Can I use the skills I've developed for this job

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Speaker 2: and get a job that brings me more money and

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Speaker 2: not expand my lifestyle to what I'm earning? And then

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Speaker 2: some you know what I mean, It's like you like,

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Speaker 2: where are your levers of change? Well, ratcheting up your

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Speaker 2: income would be a lever of change, you know, like

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Speaker 2: reducing your expenses a level of change. You start creating

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Speaker 2: space in there. It's not an overnight thing. If you've

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Speaker 2: gotten that balled up in the dominant economy. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's people sort of get hopeless about you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to die in debt, and like eventually it's like,

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Speaker 2: so what you know, when I die, the debt disappears.

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Speaker 2: But then your whole life is engage with paying off

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Speaker 2: that debt. I mean, you become a cash cow for

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Speaker 2: the bank. If that doesn't create indignation, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it does, you know. So I think addressing the

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Speaker 2: hopeless inevitability that I will never get out of this.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's an important step of like, okay, it's possible,

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Speaker 2: other people have done it. Let's see, let's see where

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Speaker 2: the leaks are. I'm not saying that that silly little

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Speaker 2: thing about the latte. You know, like if you just

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Speaker 2: like you know, if you just buy a Marcano coffee

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Speaker 2: and not lot Lante, somehow or another, your life is

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Speaker 2: going to change. But I think what that is communicating

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Speaker 2: is that nicol and diming ourselves to death. Well that

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Speaker 2: was a phrase out of the sixties, out about like

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Speaker 2: five dollars and ten dollars, you know, or fifty and

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Speaker 2: one hundred. Yeah, there's no easy answer to that, but

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Speaker 2: it's you've been wound into something. You've become a fact

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Speaker 2: or of, you know, a factor of the money economy.

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Speaker 2: How do you get out? You just have to start

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Speaker 2: to be conscious of where the leaks are. And it's

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Speaker 2: also conscious of what you love. You know, what am

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Speaker 2: I trading for in this moment?

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Speaker 1: It does work, and really, like the fish and water,

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Speaker 1: you have to you're like, what's water? You have to

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Speaker 1: be at least conscious of it first before you can

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Speaker 1: start to make changes accordingly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so listen, just listen to George Carlin's Stick on Stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know, do you know what I mean that I

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Speaker 2: remember that one. Yeah, yeah, you have you have to

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Speaker 2: have a stuff to you put your stuff in.

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Speaker 1: One of my best friends bought a battery daddy to

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Speaker 1: hold his batteries in, right, because you buy enough batteries

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Speaker 1: and then you have to find out how to store

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Speaker 1: them in a way where they're not all over the

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Speaker 1: place exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's why you go to the thrift store and you

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Speaker 2: get an old makeup case for ten cents, you put

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Speaker 2: your batteries in there.

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Speaker 1: You know, Well, you're right, I mean, that's the That's

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Speaker 1: that's where we're at stuff wise, is we need to

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Speaker 1: buy more stuff in order to organize the stuff that

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Speaker 1: we have, because really.

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Speaker 2: And then just stop, you know, I mean, I know

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Speaker 2: it's difficult at this point, but just limit your Amazon

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Speaker 2: addiction and don't just go over to Walmart. I used

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, like, how do you do this?

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Speaker 2: We you just don't go shopping. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: need something, go get it, but don't shop. Yeah, except

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Speaker 2: for thrist stories.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you on that, you know. I almost like

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Speaker 1: took my kids yesterday. They were like, let's go do

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Speaker 1: something fun. We end up going to the playground instead,

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Speaker 1: but I was like the thirst store. That was the

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Speaker 1: other place we're going to go. In many ways, you

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Speaker 1: launched the financial independence movement, you and Joe with your book.

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Speaker 1: It feels like some of the current proponents maybe you

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Speaker 1: have a little bit of a different mindset about financial

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Speaker 1: independence than you did. It feels like the goal that

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Speaker 1: you had behind financial independence was to live a life

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Speaker 1: of service. That was kind of at the heart of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what your take is on the current status

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Speaker 1: of the movement, because it just feels like the core

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Speaker 1: of it is different than how it started.

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Speaker 2: Just ask Buddha how he feels about yogur retreats.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, bastardized in a sense.

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Speaker 2: It's like because of I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the Western mind. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if it's the human mind. Will take something that's

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Speaker 2: like a you know, a download from the divine, and

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Speaker 2: we'll strip off the divine part of it and operationalize

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Speaker 2: the material part of it.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying Joe and I were divine at all,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're sort of like secondary and let's say

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Speaker 2: Threau is divine or Jesus. How about Jesus? You know,

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Speaker 2: so we were operating, we were sort of like translating

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Speaker 2: a spiritual message into something quite practical. But the spirituality

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Speaker 2: it gets stripped off and the practicality becomes a you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like it's like indulgences in the Catholic Church. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know what that is in humans that wants

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Speaker 2: to do that.

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Speaker 1: So we need a Martin Luther to bring.

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Speaker 2: Right now, how conscious Martin Luther was, you know, And

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Speaker 2: I think that there's there's a lot of people now

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Speaker 2: who look at the range of access to spiritual experiences.

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Speaker 2: From that, people are are availing themselves up, you know,

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Speaker 2: from teachers to psychedelics to meditation, and they're feeling that

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Speaker 2: there's a breakthrough in consciousness. Now that's happening. That's sort

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Speaker 2: of that is not from one pointed enlightened individual, But

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Speaker 2: there is a you know, the age of Aquarius, if

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Speaker 2: that's you know, I don't know. I say that with

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Speaker 2: a little bit of irony, but there is you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe that's an element of hope, but there is are

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Speaker 2: people who connect the dots right now and see that

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Speaker 2: consciousness is rising, but not everywhere, you know, so we

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Speaker 2: have to deal with the consumer culture.

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Speaker 1: One of the criticisms of the Fire movement is that

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Speaker 1: it's too extreme. Do you think it's possible to take

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Speaker 1: some of the concepts of frugality too far? Or is

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Speaker 1: even kind of to get at what you're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: that that extreme sort of reaction is actually part of

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Speaker 1: what is at the heart of missing a spiritual element

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Speaker 1: that's a necessity to be able to do this well.

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Speaker 2: I do find that many people, not most or all,

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Speaker 2: but many in the Fire movement have kind of gotten

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Speaker 2: down to that engineering mind, you know, without the spaciousness

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Speaker 2: of what is the meaning of life? And for those people,

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Speaker 2: if they get financially independent, that is a big confrontation

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Speaker 2: because the thing that organized their lives, which is saving money,

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Speaker 2: is no longer necessary. What's necessary now is that you

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Speaker 2: figure out how else to fill your life, and that's

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Speaker 2: difficult for somebody who hasn't given any thought to it.

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Speaker 2: There's no purpose. What is the purpose of financial independence?

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Speaker 2: And so in a way, finding the underbelly of something

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Speaker 2: that rings of truth, but you're not sure you want

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Speaker 2: to give it a go. You know, for example, let's

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Speaker 2: say you know, you know that you should be running,

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Speaker 2: you know that you should be taking care of your health,

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Speaker 2: but you read the story of the one person in

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Speaker 2: the Boston marathon who dropped dead, and you go like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: You know, So, I don't know how widespread this characterization

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Speaker 2: of the fire movement is. It's just the reputation it's

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Speaker 2: developed because you have to look inside the movement. There's

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Speaker 2: a person who lives in my town who was, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of like a a regional leader. He's on the

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Speaker 2: school board, and I mean he is like one of

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Speaker 2: the most service oriented, sweetest people I know. So a

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Speaker 2: lot of this is questioning the problem that the culture

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Speaker 2: feeds you all the time. Talk about being subject to

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Speaker 2: social media and manipulation. It's like, you know, what do

404
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: we call conspiracy theories? There's conspiracy theories left right and center,

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Speaker 2: and it's so easy to spread them. So it's I

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Speaker 2: would say that's even more of a problem than overspending

407
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Speaker 2: when you come right down to it is the unfettered

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Speaker 2: manipulation of our minds, and part of it is product

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Speaker 2: oriented so we keep buying things, going into debt. But

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Speaker 2: part of it is the product is your participation in society.

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Speaker 2: The product is movement building around prejudices. So owning your

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Speaker 2: own mind, integrity, you know, fidelity to your values and

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Speaker 2: your higher purpose. That's not being well supported by all

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Speaker 2: of the manifestations of the consumer culture. And I would

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Speaker 2: say social media is another form of consumption, I.

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Speaker 1: Might be the most oppressive form currently of consumption that

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Speaker 1: most many, many people listening to this right now per

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Speaker 1: take in and it's just seen as normal, and so

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Speaker 1: we continue to do it, but we at what cost

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Speaker 1: to ourselves, to our time, to our relationships. You're right,

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I want to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and I want to get back to so many

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Speaker 1: more questions for you. VICKI well, so, well, yeah, hit

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Speaker 1: that brake. We'll come right back. Our We're back. Still

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Speaker 1: talk about Vicky. Robin talked about meaning and time and

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Speaker 1: money and the intersection of all those things. And so

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Speaker 1: this is a philosophical conversation with some practical things instituted

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Speaker 1: into it. Vicky, one of my friends works for an organization.

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Speaker 1: Their whole goal is racial reconciliation. That is like the

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Speaker 1: goal of the nonprofit that he works for.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And he talks about a term called dignified interdependence. And

433
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: so this relationship between humans, it's not a top down,

434
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: let me fix you and help you. It is a

435
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: dignified we need each other sort of relationship. And that's

436
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: sprung to mind when I was looking at the most

437
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: recent update of your money, of your life, because you

438
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: talk about financial interdependence. What does that mean? Why is

439
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: that powerful?

440
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: Wow? Ecology is the absolute reality of the natural world,

441
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: everything feeding everything, everything having a niche that both serves

442
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 2: themselves and serves the collective. Things that do not serve

443
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: the collective are you know, weeded out. Eventually. We are

444
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: interdependent with the illusion of separation, and the illusion of

445
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: separation is what allows us to live in hierarchies, to

446
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: overspend the debt, to create the consumer culture because we

447
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: have no allegiance to, we have no responsibility to, we

448
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: have no awareness of that. It's the ecology of the

449
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 2: living earth that is the substrate that creates all wealth.

450
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: And it's the ecology of society, you know, however small

451
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: or large, it's humans living together. Now. Of course, you

452
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: know extreme hierarchies, you know we're entrapped in that. But

453
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: like village life. I was talking to earlier about village life.

454
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: You know, humans living together in communities where there is

455
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: consequences your behavior that can be seen by the community

456
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: and responded to. In other words, like if you're a

457
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: bad county commissioner, you'll get voted out because you're accountable

458
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: to real people that you could bump into in the supermarket.

459
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: You know, real people who can hold you accountable in

460
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: some way or another. And so that your dignity, your integrity,

461
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: is the point of the realm. If you're a good actor,

462
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: you are able to move in community with fluidity because

463
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: people trust you, because people are willing to trade with you.

464
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: So we live in an interdependent world socially, ecologically, and

465
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: in times through history when money is scarce, whether it's

466
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: before like Fiat money came into being, mutual aid has

467
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 2: been the way that we meet our needs helping one another.

468
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: That's the natural form of responsible people in community is

469
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: we help one another. And civilization has allowed us to

470
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: have such a fragmented community where the butcher, the baker,

471
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: and the candlestick maker maybe live in different towns or

472
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 2: different countries. So there isn't this sense of accountability And

473
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: that's a big loss. And when you say, you know,

474
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: you're talking about racial justice in this organization, and I think,

475
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, when people are in some way oppressed in

476
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: some way, their opportunities are limited because the dominant society

477
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: will not let them participate, they do turn to one another.

478
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King came out of a black church. You know,

479
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: he wasn't like, you know, it's the ministers in the churches.

480
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: It's the that was the power. It wasn't just a

481
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: bunch of individualist black people thinking well, I'm going to

482
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: go to the parade this weekend and then I'm going

483
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: to go to you know. So I think it's there's

484
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: something about the consumer culture that allows us to disconnect

485
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: from community, you know, and even up to an including

486
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: AI that people are going to AI therapists. You know.

487
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: It's like more and more that sense that's been endemic

488
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: to human occupation in this human culture that we need

489
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: each other is being torn apart piece by peace. That

490
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: they used to say, and this was like forty years ago,

491
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: that the consumer culture operates by breaking bond. So once

492
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: you bond with somebody a lot of your needs are

493
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: met relationally, but you break the bond and now you

494
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: need two washing machines, two frigerators, you know, two vacuum cleaners,

495
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: and you need you need to do all the activities

496
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: to form other bonds. So the degree to which the

497
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: consumer culture can break your bonds with other people or

498
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: break your internal bonds with your own integrity, to that

499
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: degree it owns you and it owns us.

500
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: It makes me think of I used to ask friends

501
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: for rise to the airport and now I use uber,

502
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: Or when I need a lemon because I'm going to

503
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: make a good cocktail that night, and I'm like, do

504
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: I ask the neighbor down the street or do I

505
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: run to the grocery store? And so often we run

506
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: to the grocery store instead of turning to our neighbor.

507
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: But actually that further's relationship. Not only is it better

508
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: for our finances to be able to rely on our

509
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: neighbors rely on each other, but there's all these little

510
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: ways that the these new industries have sprung up that

511
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: like prevent us from living life the way we used to.

512
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: That saved us money because we didn't need another service

513
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: in our life, but also seem to add value at

514
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: the same time exactly.

515
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: I mean we're doing in my community. I live on

516
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: on Widby Island in Washington. It's a long, skinny island

517
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: on South Woodby Island. There's about twenty five thousand people.

518
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: And we are organizing neighborhoods around emergency preparedness because we

519
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: live in an earthquake zone and we also, you know,

520
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 2: we're an island, you know, so we're seaside village, so

521
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: it makes sense to do that. It's a little bit counterintuitive.

522
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: I mean, we're working hard to get people in neighborhoods,

523
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: neighborhood captains to actually get the neighborhood organized, to go

524
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: out and visit our neighbors and get and find out

525
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: what their skills are and what their needs are and

526
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: where the you know, where the shutoff is for their electricity,

527
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: you know, so in case of an earthquake. And the

528
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: more I do that, the more my neighbors become my village.

529
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: And when during your money of your life here, I

530
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: travel all over the world. I mean, I don't know

531
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: if I got it to elite status in any airline,

532
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: but you know, it's like my neighbors were the world,

533
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: and even with my podcast, they did a podcast called

534
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: what Could Possibly Go Right? I could be disconnected from

535
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: my community. I could consider my community as a source,

536
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: but not as a relationship. But the more pressure there

537
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 2: is from the unraveling, whether it's financial, ecological, you know, justice,

538
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: all these things, the more pressure from that, the more

539
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: it is that we need to connect with one another

540
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: to meet our needs. And so it's not it's not

541
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: to blame ourselves for how we've traded convenience in relationship.

542
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: It's not to blame ourselves, like back me, I shouldn't

543
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: go and get the lemon. I'm gonna knock on sixteen

544
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: doors until I find a lemon. But it's the relationships.

545
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's building relationships with neighbors such that

546
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: you could knock on the door, and it's also building

547
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: capacity to design cocktails that don't need lemons.

548
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: A little bit of both, a little bit of both,

549
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of both. It seems like in our

550
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: modern culture, money is also seen as like a measuring

551
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: stick of sorts, right, right, So you think about the

552
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: Forbes one hundred list or whatever, and you're like, oh,

553
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: it's four buffer number four, number five this year. And

554
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Warren being an interesting case because I think he's very

555
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: different than a lot of the other people on a

556
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: list like that. But yeah, what when do you think

557
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: we started using money as a measuring stick of sorts

558
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: and as a sign of success. And how destructive is that?

559
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: I think it goes way back. I am not a primatologist,

560
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: you know, I have no expertise. I'm a lot of

561
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: things I pull out of thin air as metaphors. But

562
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: if you look at primate groups, there is a pecking order,

563
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: if you will. That's the wrong term for primates. But

564
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: you know there is dominance, you know, and it's the

565
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: dominant male that gets the food and gets the women,

566
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: you know, gets this genetic So we come out of

567
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: a biology of dominance, a hierarchy. I mean, I think

568
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: almost like the human consciousness, like sort of the awakening

569
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: of self reflective consciousness. Perhaps that's what's given us this

570
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: sort of moral sense, not an operational sense, that we

571
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: need each other and allows to have these affiliations of

572
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: love rather than utility, I don't think. I mean, we

573
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: can lay it somewhat at the feet of Fiat currency

574
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: of debt based money, which requires growth. It requires being

575
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: able to pay back the money and then some and

576
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: we are stuck in that.

577
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: And some of that isn't the worst. Right. I can

578
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: buy a home only because I can get a mortgage

579
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: on that home. If I were to try to save

580
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: up the cash to buy the home, it's not going

581
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: to happen.

582
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: It's not going to happen. Nor are you going to

583
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 2: go out and cut logs and build a home, right,

584
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: of course you're not.

585
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: Maybe somebody with more skills than.

586
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: Me would exactly. But I'll tell you what I've done.

587
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: I'm not bragging, but you know, from that FI consciousness,

588
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: I stumbled into the being able to buy a house

589
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: in the village I live in, you know, at the

590
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: absolute bottom dip of the market. This house appeared and

591
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: had problems with it, so nobody else would buy it,

592
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: and it was on a bank option. So it's a

593
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: nineteen hundred square foot split entry house. It's like a box.

594
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: And so I converted the family room into a studio apartment.

595
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: I've been renting that. That was working so well that

596
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: I converted the garage into studio apartment and bought a shed.

597
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: I used shed, so all the stuff from the garage

598
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: went into the shed, and so then I have two

599
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: studio apartments, and then I started from time to time

600
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: I rent my guest room to wonderful traveling artists or

601
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: you know whatever, people coming through and need a place

602
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 2: to live for a couple months. So I have turned

603
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: this house into a site of production. I've turned this

604
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: house into well being, not just for me. I mean,

605
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: I'm the queen of of my domain. Make no mistake.

606
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 2: I bought it because I recognized it had a big

607
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: south facing yard. So the yard produces food, The roof

608
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: produces water for fifteen hundred gallon rainwater tank. So a

609
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: house isn't just a money suck. It is a resource.

610
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying you should monetize everything you know

611
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: and sell your son to the neighbor to rake leaves.

612
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 2: And I have with some friends developed a whole initiative

613
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: around this idea of turning underutilized spaces to meet unmet needs.

614
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: So there's lots of single people living in houses, family

615
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: size houses, so we're encouraging people to put what we

616
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: call in home suites like what I have in their houses.

617
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 2: We share all electricity, water, we share all the utility costs.

618
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: We share a washer dryer, but everybody has an independent

619
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 2: living quarters and if this idea would catch hold, which

620
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: is very sort of anti man's home as a castle.

621
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: But if people started seeing, oh I see like I

622
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have to go out and buy myself long

623
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: term care insurance. I could put an in home suite

624
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: in my house, and I could trade that for money

625
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: and care, so I could age in place. We just

626
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: think about, Okay, well, when I get too old to

627
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 2: take care of myself, I've got to send myself off

628
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: to the glue factory. Excuse me, I didn't say that.

629
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: You know, I've got to send myself off to a

630
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: facility that will charge me six to ten thousand dollars

631
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: a month. It's like our minds are framed around We're

632
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: going to solve every problem through buying something else, rather

633
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: than going like, what do I have available? I don't

634
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: have any children, so maybe I'm doing in home suites

635
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: instead of children. But you know, even somebody with children

636
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: could create these suites in their home so that if

637
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: they need help, and you know, the family rotates in

638
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: and out, the six kids, you know, each come for

639
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 2: two months, there's a place for them to live.

640
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: Good stuff, oh Man, so much more to get to

641
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: aging and how that impacts how you think about money

642
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: and freedom. Get to some more questions along those lines

643
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: with Vicky right after this. All right, we're back with

644
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: Vicky Robin. We're talking about spending life wisely. It seems

645
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: like you're talking a little bit about kind of on

646
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: that theme of dehumanization and how some of the ways

647
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: we attempt to solve problems actually create new problems that

648
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: are worse than the problem that originally exists.

649
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: And costs money. It costs a lot, a lot of money.

650
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just makes me think of the book being mortal.

651
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you read it by Yeah, And

652
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: just like the way and I want to talk about

653
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: actually this about aging with you in just a second,

654
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: but the way we do aging in this country and

655
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: end of life healthcare and just how problematic and how

656
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: expensive it is, and there are we think we can

657
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: just throw money at the problem and that's going to

658
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: make it better, and in fact, oftentimes it doesn't. Sometimes

659
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: it does, oftentimes it doesn't. It costs a lot of

660
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: money and people feel worse about it at the same time.

661
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: And now you're into the part of this that is

662
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: underlying consumerism and many other forms of trying to control

663
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: the outer world. Is the fear of death that you know,

664
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: once the ego is born, you know, it's born about

665
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 2: ten seconds after you're born. It's like, wait a second,

666
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: where is the feeding tube. I'm gonna have to be

667
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: adorable to get some food. That's you know, who knows

668
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: what goes on in an infant's mind, but it's that

669
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: process of I've got to do something to get something

670
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: from the outside to come into my world to help

671
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: me to live. So the fear of death is major,

672
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: and it's potentiated. It's increased by the alienation from one another.

673
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 2: So we don't have people in our lives who die.

674
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: Didn't Grandma, None of my grandfathers were alive when I

675
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 2: was born, and I really wasn't around when my grandmothers died.

676
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: So I have had very I mean, I've had my

677
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: pets die, but I've had very little experience. Now that

678
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm eighty, I'm starting my friends are starting to die,

679
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: and we're starting to create rituals in my community around death,

680
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: and so I'm starting to go like, okay, I am

681
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: I'm heading toward being an ancestor. You know, whatever that means,

682
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: I will die. It does have back pressure on your

683
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: consciousness of your own really moral sense, you know, like

684
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: what that legacy stuff that people talk about, okay, or

685
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: would I talk about about? You know, like the it's

686
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: sort of aa for your ego, you know, the realization

687
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 2: that in your charging through life, you've created ripples that

688
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: you and other human beings and in systems, and you

689
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: really want to get right with that. You want to

690
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: die in peace. So that work for me what I

691
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: call coming of aging in my blog. That didn't start

692
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,479
Speaker 2: until about two or three years ago. I was still

693
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: charging long as if I was in the middle years,

694
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: and I was never going to die. But the consumer

695
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: mindset I think has some sort of death aversion in it,

696
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: like trying to sideline, trying to get rid of out

697
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: of the central view the fact that you will die.

698
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: And yes, also I would say that some of this aging,

699
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: sickness and death industry colms because other systems have been

700
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 2: broken and so we start to you know, as I said,

701
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: the consumer culture works on breaking bonds, and so the

702
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 2: more bonds that are broken, the more you need to

703
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 2: depend on money to get through the hiccups of life.

704
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: I'm also very much in the conversation around taking aging

705
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: out of the realm of disability and into the realm

706
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: of possibility. That I feel that there's possibilities that are

707
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: open to me now that were not before. And it's

708
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: not just skydiving, you know, it's like possibilities for freedom,

709
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 2: for kind of freedom of mind that I couldn't have

710
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: when I was younger, because I was still sort of

711
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: trying to make something of myself in this world, even

712
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: if it didn't have to do with money. I was like,

713
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: I want to have influence. I want to be in

714
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: the room where it's happening. I want to want to

715
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: say something that's going to like change everything, you know,

716
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: that sort of attachment to the to your influence on others.

717
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: So there's a freedom of mind. There is a freedom

718
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: of friendship, you know. It's like you don't have so

719
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 2: much status and who you pick. There's you know, there's

720
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: so many freedoms when you get rid of status, when

721
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: you get rid of these things that are more from

722
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: the middle of your life. There's freedom. Like a lot

723
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: of people, it's freedom of travel, you know, freedom freedom

724
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: to spend their freedom to read, freedom to learn. You know,

725
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: it's like this time in life has a spiritual, moral, intellectual,

726
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: creative value that you don't get when you're younger, and

727
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: mortality is actually part of it. It's part of the

728
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: back pressure. It's part of like wanting to wanting to

729
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: you know, some last bursts not of you know, your

730
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: bucket list, but some last burst of the beauty that

731
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: you were given to express in this world being expressed.

732
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm writing now I have his vision

733
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: of myself doing a solo show, a one woman show.

734
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to do that, So now I'm doing that,

735
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: you know, and who knows what I'll do next.

736
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. It makes me think about the the Brian Johnson,

737
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: the influencer who doesn't want to die, and he's doing

738
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: all these things to try to oh, to try to

739
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: make sure that he doesn't. I'm just like it. I

740
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: think my aversion to it is not that he's healthy.

741
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: It's that he thinks he's not going to die, or

742
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: that he doesn't want to die, because that's all a

743
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: part of what makes this meaningful is that death is

744
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: inevitable for all of.

745
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: Us, right, and then you could you know, it's like

746
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: it's like a billion trillion dollar industry. You don't have

747
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: to die is a huge promise. You know, there's a

748
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 2: whole industry around the aversion to aging, and the more

749
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: aversion you can to aging you can have, the more

750
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: corporations and product based things can make money off you.

751
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. What, I'm curious you've said that you are a

752
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: lot freer than a whole lot of people who have

753
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: ten times as much money as you did.

754
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 2: I didn't say that. I didn't say I didn't compare

755
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: myself to people with money, or if I did at

756
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: one point in my past, I'm not going to say

757
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: that now.

758
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: Okay, what I guess what? I my question based on

759
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: that kind of mindset? What does it mean to be free?

760
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: And I'm sure for you that's even over the past

761
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: few years maybe that definition has shifted. But what does

762
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: that mean?

763
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: Well, glad you asked. I wrote a whole book about

764
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: that that hasn't been published, called Rethinking Freedom in a

765
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: World with Limits? Oh wow, Because I wanted to have

766
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: Americans fall in love with lims the way we've fallen

767
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 2: in love with freedom, to understand limits, not as something

768
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: that's imposed from the outside by you know, ahdonic old spinsters. Sorry,

769
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: that's a terrible term, but entitlement has become our default

770
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: understanding of freedom. I can do whatever I want, whenever

771
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: I want, and you can't stop me, you know. And

772
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: even if there's a law, you can't stop me. I mean.

773
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: And yet there's ecological limits. So there's the American definition

774
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: of limits is entitlement, and there's ecological limits that we're

775
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: breaking on a daily basis. How do you resolve that?

776
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: How do you get people to think about limits in

777
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: a different way? And people say, oh, you should talk

778
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: about boundaries or constraints or something else. No, I like

779
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: the word limits because it's so edgy as it were edgy,

780
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: get it?

781
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: So what are those limits?

782
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? So there are natural limits. Like I used to

783
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: say when I was talking about this, I design your

784
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: future in twenty five limits or less. What are you

785
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: willing to limit in order to have value someplace else?

786
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: It's not just limit for limits, it's what do you

787
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: constrain in order to have value somewhere else? You know,

788
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 2: like people who want to run a marathon, they will

789
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: constrain their lives. You know, you get up at six

790
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, you run, but you're choosing that

791
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: constraint in order to do something that you value more.

792
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: And so understanding limits as the design tools of freedom,

793
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: not the limit, not the thwarting of freedom. But the

794
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: only question is where are you going to put the

795
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 2: constraints in your life. It's all a question of design,

796
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 2: you know. With the financial independence movement, okay, we're going

797
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: to put the constraints over spending and to a degree

798
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: that we don't collapse our well being so that we

799
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: can have something else that we want more, which is time.

800
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: So limits are not in the way they are the

801
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: way they're the design tools of freedom. I challenge you

802
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 2: to design a universe that has no limits. And here's

803
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 2: how the universe goes. It comes into being and out

804
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: of being. And so I wrote that book twenty years

805
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 2: ago that they never got published, and that's a whole

806
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: long story to sort of have a language for limits

807
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: at this point that we could address that. So one

808
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: of the one of the ideas from the book is

809
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: that there are four freedoms, and we only think in

810
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 2: terms of two. We think of freedom from domination, constraint, disease, whatever,

811
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: freedom from things that we don't want, and freedom too

812
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: approach things that we do want. You know, so freedom

813
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: from and freedom to like, I'm free to learn, I'm

814
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: free to grow, you know. But there are two other

815
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: freedoms that we don't see, and these I call the

816
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: freedoms that connect. Those are the freedoms that separate. I

817
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: can get away from to whatever. You know, Those are

818
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: the way of freedoms. The freedoms that connect are freedom

819
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 2: for like, you're part of a society, so I can

820
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: enact my freedom however I want. But what is it for?

821
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: To what am I dedicating it to? You know? That's

822
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: like in a marriage, you sacrifice some freedom for this

823
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: whole dream of love and family, and you know, so

824
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: that would be you know, love and family would be

825
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: a four a freedom for And then there's also the

826
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: one that we were talking about earlier that's even harder,

827
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: which is called freedom with Like, while I'm enacting my freedom,

828
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 2: everything else in the universe is enacting its freedom. How

829
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: in the world are we going to be free people

830
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: in an interconnected world. The only way to do that,

831
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 2: I think, is through consciousness, you know, whether you call

832
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: that love, respect, God, spirit, that's the only realm of

833
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: true freedom. And we're trying to enact spiritual freedom on

834
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 2: a material world, and it just doesn't work, but we

835
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: haven't the rent hasn't come due.

836
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: I feel like I have one last question for you,

837
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure how to word it. I just

838
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: I guess it something about the intersection of personal finance

839
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: and ultimate reality. And sometimes after this conversation, as long

840
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: as it makes, talking about like the nuts and bolts

841
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: of personal finance feels so mundane. But also when you

842
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: think about the reality of what it looks like to

843
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: live in this world and not have basic personal finance hygiene,

844
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: it can lead to a lot of spiritual angst.

845
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: So it's important, right personal finance hygiene is chosen limits.

846
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: And so many people don't understand how to do it

847
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: well so that they can not have money at the

848
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: forefront of their mind all the time, inculcating taking over

849
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: that space that could be used for maybe deeper thoughts that.

850
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 2: That yeah, in the money of your life, we say,

851
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, money is life energy. It's the hours of

852
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: your life that you're you invest in money to get

853
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 2: the things that you think you want. But it's also

854
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: the life energy of the earth. It is the bioproductive

855
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: capacity of the earth. It's like, you know, out of

856
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 2: the natural world comes all value, you know, value as

857
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: in things. So that's part of the spiritual aspect of earning, spending, saving, investing,

858
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:12,479
Speaker 2: et cetera. It's honoring the earth. And you know, for

859
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: some people nature is God and some people the earth

860
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 2: is made by God. In either case it's holy. So

861
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: that's the link that I'm making from, you know, high

862
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: integrity relationship with money, personal finance, tracking and evaluating the

863
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: you know, like not buying things you don't need. All

864
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: of the principles that we all talk about in the

865
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 2: Fire movement are directly linked with saving the earth and

866
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: directly linked with whatever the divine is, whatever the substance

867
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: is in which we live and breathe and have our being,

868
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: So they all link. You know, if you're messy with

869
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: your finances, you're just messy with your relationship with life.

870
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: You know, it's like you're messy with your finances, but

871
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: you are very careful to not cut down trees. Well,

872
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: you're still cutting down trees if you're messy with your finance.

873
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: Beautiful Vicki, Robin, thank you so much for joining me.

874
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: Where can how do money listeners find out more about you?

875
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right now I'm blogging on substack and My blog

876
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: is called Coming of Aging, and I've done a lot

877
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: of interviews, so probably you could go on YouTube and

878
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 2: type in my name and find stuff from twenty years ago.

879
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,479
Speaker 1: Well, we'll link to all that stuff in the show

880
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: notes on the website. VICKI thank you so much for

881
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: your time.

882
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 2: You're welcome. It's been very interesting to try to pump

883
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 2: up this the answers to your question from deep well within.

884
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: Oh is it just me? Or did this episode this

885
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: conversation run the gamut? We talked about so many different things.

886
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: I just really appreciate Vicky's perspective on the spiritual nature

887
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: of life and how that impacts your finances, and I

888
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: think it's probably something that doesn't get talked about enough,

889
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: and so I'm glad we talked about it today because

890
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: without that deeper dimension, if we're just trying to achieve

891
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: financial independence, so we for our own sakes and on

892
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: a certain timeline that makes us happy, I think we're

893
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: probably missing out on some of the good that that

894
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: journey can produce for ourselves and for others. So just

895
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: appreciate Vicky's honesty and intentionality talking about kind of the

896
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: relationship between spirituality and money and when it comes to

897
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: like my big takeaway from this conversation, Gosh, it's really

898
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: hard to come up with one, but she talked about

899
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: how we keep solving problems with more products. I think

900
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: that's very true. But I think my favorite thing that

901
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: she said, or one of my favorite things he said,

902
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: was to apply consciousness to your money decisions. And it

903
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: made me think of the Victor Frankel quote where he

904
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: basically says, between stimulus and response, there is space, and

905
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: in that space is our power to choose our response.

906
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 1: And then in that response lies our growth and our freedom.

907
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: And I think it is really easy, especially in a

908
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: world dominated by algorithms, dominated by email, dominated by things

909
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: that are done to us, where it feels like we're

910
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: constantly responding. And the same is true with our financial decisions,

911
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 1: right where the email comes in for our favorite retailer

912
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: and we peruse and it feels like we're just kind

913
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: of going through the motions and we're buying stuff or

914
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: we're spending money or using money in a certain way

915
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: that well, this is just normal. Everybody else is doing this,

916
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to do the same. I mean,

917
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: that Frankle quote is so powerful on just the personal level,

918
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: the relational level, the discipline level. But I think it

919
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: has a lot going on for it can if we

920
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: relate that to our money as well. So apply consciousness

921
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: to those decisions that you're making in terms of your finances,

922
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: and there's always that space for you to do something different.

923
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: And if you're like, man, I've been going down this

924
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: path for a long time and I'm starting to kind

925
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: of rethink whether or not this is best for me,

926
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: whether this makes the most sense for my family, Well,

927
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: apply consciousness to those decisions. Take a step back, like

928
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: she said, like step look down into the valley of

929
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: your own life, and is this the direction you want

930
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: to be heading in, whether it's in terms of money

931
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: or all sorts of other things. I just think hopefully

932
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: this conversation helps you reflect on the role that your

933
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: money plays in your life, but also the way your

934
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: life is heading. And thank you as always for tuning in. Again.

935
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: I know this one came out of left field, but

936
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: I think in the best way. I love Vicky. I

937
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: love her message, and it's always fun to hear from

938
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: someone too who has lived a lot of life. So

939
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: thank you as always for joining us. You can find

940
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: show notes for this episode up on the website at

941
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: howtomoney dot com. Until next time, best Friend Out