WEBVTT - #036 Jason Flom with Lorenzo Johnson 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.040 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.200 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.239 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.120 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.720 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:31.960 from the lower. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.520 Courts all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.320 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:46.400 in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.320 guilty when you see them on TV, because it may 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.320 just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:16.560 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:21.400 Jason Flamm. I'm very excited to have as our guest 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.280 today an extraordinary man, a gentle giant of a person, actually, 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:26.240 Lorenzo Johnson. 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.959 Lorenzo Johnson's life changed on December fifteenth, nineteen ninety five, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.399 he and Corey Walker were charged with murdering Taraj Williams 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:35.040 in Harrisburg. 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.080 Twenty two years in prison for Lorenzo Johnson, a crime 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.080 he says he didn't commit. 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.000 And in twenty twelve, the federal Appeals Court released him 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.440 from prison, saying there was insufficient evidence. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:47.920 He went home to New York for five months, but 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.680 had to go back to prison after the Attorney General appealed. 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.880 But for the first time in two decades, investigators have 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.600 turned over the original police report and it raises new questions. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.880 Johnson says it's key evidence he should have had it 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.680 as trial. For the first time, he found out police 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.880 took fingerprints at the crime scene. He also learned Carla Brown, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.680 a key witness against him during his trial, was once 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.040 labeled a suspect. On top of that, a new witness 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.800 has come forward saying he was with Johnson in New 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.960 York the knight of the murder. The Attorney General's office 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.800 has been investigating the case all year. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.600 Now he walks free the court's agreeing with him after 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.280 a long battle. The judge accepted Johnson's no contest pleased 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.640 to a lesser charge of third degree murder, and he 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.360 now begins immediate parole. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.280 He's anxious to be free again. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.320 Lorenzo, thank you for coming on the show. 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:37.519 Thank you for having me. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:44.120 Lorenzo, your story is insane. I can say that, and 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.639 you actually lived through it. You know. The more I've 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.040 learned about you and your story, the more incredible I 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.799 find it that you have this amazing spirit and this 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:00.760 calm demeanor after having gone through this unimaginable nightmare. It's 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.239 it's crazy. So let's let's go back to the beginning. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.560 You're a New Yorker like me from Yonkers. What was 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:10.600 life growing up like in Yonkers? 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.519 A nice life for Bencus. You know, as a kid, 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.360 I box for the Police Athletic League. I did that 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.000 for a couple of years. You know, I want to 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.000 kick close the Junior Olympics in New York. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.240 So you grew up boxing, living a pretty normal life. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.519 You weren't like a hoodlum or anything. You didn't get 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.440 any real trouble, no violent felonyhing. Some people say, well, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:33.919 if he got caught up in the system, he must 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.080 have been a bad guy in the first place. No, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.440 you didn't have any kind of history like that whatsoever. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.440 And yet you end up getting caught up in this 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:48.200 vicious machine, this criminal justice machine. So this case was 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.640 a murdered case. Taraj Williams was killed outside the bar 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.920 in Harrisburg. Did you have any knowledge of this? Did 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:57.320 you know Taraj Williams? 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.840 I know him full, seen him around, but didn't know 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.200 him as far as like to call him a friend 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.440 or anything like that. And I wasn't there when it happened, 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.200 like I wasn't in the state, so I had no 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.000 knowledge of what was going on or. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:11.680 What took place. 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.520 Oh, you were a couple hundred miles away in New York? 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:14.760 Is that? 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.839 And one of the crazy things is that you could 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.320 have proven, if you had access to proper attorneys, that 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.720 you had driven back from New York because you had 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.760 to received from the turnpike or even a camera right 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.480 that a camera that could have still shot. If somebody 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.280 would have just pulled that up, it would have proved 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.960 that it was impossible for you to have committed this murder, 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.640 because you know, you can't be in two places at 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.520 one time actly. But that's not what happened. I mean, 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:40.400 I'm sure people are scratching their head like I'm scratching 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.120 my head saying, okay, but how could you get convicted 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.559 of a crime when you weren't even in the same 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.000 area code, I mean zip code nothing. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.799 You know, I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.479 And the reason I fell into the hand of a 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.680 corrupt detective the day at the side took place. Me 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.159 and a group of friends came to New York and 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.560 we left Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, between three and four o'clock in 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.160 the afternoon, and we didn't come back until four or 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.559 five in the morning. This murder took place at twelve 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:20.000 o'clock midnight in Harrisburg, so when I came out at 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.760 eleven twelve o'clock later on noon, that would be December fifteenth, 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.880 and I got arrested for unrelated charge that was later dismissed. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.760 But when I got arrested, I was told that you 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.720 committed a murder last night, and I was like, I 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:37.240 didn't know what you talked about. I wasn't even in 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.719 the state last night, and being that I was from 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.159 New York, I was targeted saying that you know, I 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.599 got a witness that's gonna say it's you. And if 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.080 this witness come down here and if he says it's you, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.040 You're going to jail, so me and know when I 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:51.760 ain't doing so well, you get your witness to let 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.839 him see me. Now, at the time, there was a 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.640 lot of New York guys down there, So when this 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.080 witness came in, he said it wasn't him. Refront of me, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.640 he said it wasn't him, but it was one of 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.400 his friends. So him saying that, it's like a broad statement, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.080 like if it's a lot of New York guys down there, 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.200 you say one of my friends, it could be anybody. So, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.640 to make a long story short, I went from the 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.800 one that was supposed to commit the murder to the 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.039 one who knows something about a murder. So on the 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.640 aspect of wanting me to lie on somebody, they said, well, 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.760 help us pind this murder on somebody. And I refuse 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.440 to cooperate with them. And when I refuse to cooperate 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:34.240 with them, they got high headed with me, and I 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.839 was supposed to be incarcerated for fleeting loom from police. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.200 They gave me three counts of reckless endangement on each 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.880 cop and gave me a five hundred thousand dollars cash bell, 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.800 and they sent me to the county prison for that. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.200 So Basically they wanted to keep you where they could 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.400 have leverage over you, right, because while you're in jail, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.800 they're gonna make you think, mall, maybe I should play 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:55.480 ball with these. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.400 Guys exactly, And that didn't take place. When I went 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:03.440 to my primary hearing, the case was dismissed. And you know, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.440 I didn't do no running because I was innocent. So 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.400 like two weeks later, two to three weeks later, they 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.239 arrested me again. This time I was in the store 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.680 and they came and they locked me up, and I 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.720 looked at wanted to come up to take and I say, 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.040 you're coming at me with this again? 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.080 He said, no, it belongs to. 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.640 You now, and he had a futuitive warrant for me 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.880 for conspiracy to commit murder. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.680 So at the time, you were working in the furniture 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.200 store and just sort of going along with sort of 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.600 a normal life, right, no ideas of anything that could 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.480 this could possibly happen to you, right, But who would 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.200 ever think that something like this could happen to you? 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.080 And that's that's one of the reasons I'm so glad 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:47.960 you're here and you haven't been out for that long. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:48.760 When did you get out? 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:50.720 Two months July eleventh. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:55.360 July eleventh, twenty seventeen. And I'm telling you, I want 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.560 everyone to understand that if this could happen to you, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:00.920 it could happen to just about any would right, yes, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.240 And so now this cop has a vendetta against you 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.600 because you wouldn't wrongfully identify somebody that you know. They 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.240 just wanted you to basically pull somebody out of it 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.840 and solve their problem. And then they're gonna let you go. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.040 But then you're gonna have to walk around living for 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.640 the rest of your life with the idea that you 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.200 did to somebody what actually happened to you and you 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.680 ain't that guy exactly. So now they come back to 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.920 the store and they arrest you again. And now they're 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.080 now it's getting real serious because now they're like, you're 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.080 our guy. We decided right, But you still know you're innocent. 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.040 Yeah, it's like it's like unreal at first, because you 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.920 believe in the system. In the back of your mind, 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.599 you say, well, when we go to a hearing or 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.400 we go to court, the truth will come out. That's 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.200 what innocent prisons think in our heads, like when stuff 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.400 like this happened, and. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:52.000 In my situation. 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.480 Every time I went to court, something different would take place, like, 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.880 you know, one of my alibi witness a turnover, and 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.280 there'd be a witness for the prosecution. And I have 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.359 no idea why did they, you know, change the statement. 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.120 Because there's a lot of things going on behind the 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:08.720 scenes that you can't possibly know about. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.120 And you know, when I came to prison, I was 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.920 a little bit education wise. You know, I achieved my 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.240 ged while I was in prison, I got college credits 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.560 while I was in prison, and I taught myself the 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.200 law while I was in prison, because later on in 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.880 my case, I wind up representing myself for three years. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.760 So now things are getting really squirrely because there was 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.520 a witness who actually had been a suspect, right, and 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.320 should have actually probably been, I mean, somebody that the 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.880 cops took a much closer look at, but for some 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:47.800 reason they decided to get off of her and put 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.280 it all on you. And then there you would have 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.600 somebody who's a very incentivized witness, right, I mean, she's 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.280 trying to not go to prison for the rest of 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.040 her life. From what I've read, it seems like that's 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.199 a reasonable theory that she could have been the one 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.439 who did it. So yeah, it's not hard to draw 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.280 a line to see. Okay, well, why would she have 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.360 said what she said about you, Well, she didn't want 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:12.600 to take the blame herself. 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:18.000 In my situation, I never had a statement from the 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.560 chief witness. We was told that this witness never made 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.920 a statement, so we never had access to this witness statement. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.480 We didn't get access to the witness statement to eighteen 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.520 and a half years later, and by this time I 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.000 was remanded back from my freedom from the United States 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:35.720 Supreme Court. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.600 Right, And that's an important part of your story. One 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.200 of the things that's so crazy and crazy as a 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.680 mild word for it about your case is that, yeah, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.040 I mean, you had a Brady violation. And people listen 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.280 to the show know that the Brady violation means that 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.120 the prosecution did not turn over evidence that they had 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.840 that would have been favorable to your case to the defense, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.000 and that that's been outlawed by the Supreme Court n 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.440 in nineteen sixty four. Not only did they not turn 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.640 over exculpatory evidence, they actually lied about the existence of 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.479 it in the first place. And that's really a vicious 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.719 thing to do to somebody that they knew that every 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.560 reason to believe was innocent, which was you. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:22.240 Once I come back and they turn over this withheld information, 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:27.120 we finally found out that the prosecution from day one 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.000 knew I was innocent and let force testimony go uncorrected 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.719 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.280 United States Supreme Court. In the United States Supreme Court, 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:42.439 and they decisioned to reinstatement conviction. They used this witness 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:47.040 statement and the prosecution not once told the United States 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.079 Supreme Court listen with your quote in right here from 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.480 this witness at what this witness said in the statement. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:59.640 Wow, then your situation gets crazier and crazier. You had 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.120 been for a total of how long by the time 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.199 you were freed sixteen and a half years sixteen and 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.079 a half years is now twenty twelve. You come out 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.400 into a world that's changed a lot, and you're trying 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.480 to figure out, I'm sure, how to get back on 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.760 your feet and get started again having been through this 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:25.839 incredible ordeal. But then you come out and an unbelievable 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.480 thing happens, right, and this is I mean, what we 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.680 did to you shouldn't happen to anybody. But how is 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:39.560 it possible that your conviction was overturned and the state 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.600 had nothing better to do at the highest level, right, 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.120 the Attorney General of Pennsylvania decided, Nope, I'm going after 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.040 this guy again. We haven't punished this guy enough yet 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.040 for something we know he didn't do. While we let 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.400 the real murderer go free. We're now going to go 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.480 and take this case all the way to the Supreme Court. 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:01.520 In the Supreme but only here's one percent of criminal 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.720 cases that come before them too. So the Attorney General 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.280 of Pennsylvania, who, like I said, you would think would 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.240 have bigger things to worry about than reconvicting and innocent man, 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:17.120 but he decides, in a very vindictive and terrible move, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.720 to take your case to the Supreme Court, and one 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.120 hundred and forty eight days after you were free, the 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.440 Supreme Court reinstates your conviction and you got to go 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:29.080 back to President. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:29.920 Yeah, it was. 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:35.199 I came home on January eighteen, twenty twelve, and once 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.640 I you know, reintegrated with my family, I began working 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.440 and Jeffrey Desovitch, you know, I met him right before 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.160 I came home, and his foundation helped me with reentry 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.280 and stuff like that, and you know he was showing me, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.560 you know, he was bringing me with him on speaking 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:57.440 engagements and things of that nature. And uh, we formed 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.400 a nice bond. So one day I was at work 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.360 and I never forget. It was May twenty ninth, for 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.760 twenty twelve, and I worked for the same job been 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.480 working for today. I got a call between like nine 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.240 and ten o'clock in the morning. The voice was like muffled, 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.319 but I knew it was my lead attorney. But I 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:17.880 can d of say nothing he said because he was 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.240 crying on the phone, like he's very emotional. But what 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.200 I remember what he says is that your conviction has 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.800 been reinstated. You're gonna have to go back to prison. 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.640 And like when he said, I got numb because I 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.400 was like, I know he's serious because he's just crying 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.840 on the phone, but you know, I got numb because. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:36.440 I have to go back to prison. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.080 Is every zonay worst night, man, you know, especially after 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.160 going through the ordeal I went through the first time, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.160 and now you got to go back and fight again. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.840 So you know, all types of stuff is running through 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.640 your head, but everything is not registering because you go numb. 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.480 At first, You're like, nah, this is not true, Like 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.840 it gotta be something we could do to, you know, 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:56.600 make him see, you know, are innocent. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.240 And the grounds that what. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:05.120 I was released song was under insufficient evidence. That's equivalents 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.000 a not guilty verdict and bars the retrial. It's basically 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.920 a judicial exoneration. And there was no retrial. They had 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.280 one appeal left, and that was in the United States 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:21.000 Supreme Court, and my case was relisted three times, and 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.600 which is odd because you know, Supreme Court really normally 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.960 don't do that. So when my lawyer finished tell me 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.120 what took place, the United States Supreme Court reinstated in 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.640 my conviction all in one day with a per current 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.440 decision and didn't allow my legal team to brief our 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.040 arguments or oral argue our position, which is normal proceedures 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:43.760 for the United States Supreme Court when they take on 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:44.160 the case. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.320 So, you know, once again, I'm numb to it. 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.920 That the fact that I'm at work and I go 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.040 drive down to Jeffrey Deserpus Foundation in Midtown. I would 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.400 just drive down there and I had my future wife 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.200 meet me down there, and stuff was down and I 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:02.720 went in there and that was I was just numb 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.520 because they knew what took place. I quote before I 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.360 got there, and I just sat there, and you know, 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:09.960 it was like I was in space somewhere for a 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:11.680 little while, Like I sat in the back room for 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.880 a minute. I was trying to gather myself because I 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:15.160 was home for one hundred and forty eight days. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:17.040 No way in the world would I. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.720 Think that I would have to go back to prison 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.200 for a crime I didn't commit for a second time. 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:25.560 Oh yeah, I mean, you've already been exonerated. It's it's 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.840 just it sounds like double jeopardy. It sounds like a 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.440 nightmare that nobody who hasn't been through it could possibly understand. 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.800 So let's talk for a minute about this crazy experience 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.040 that you had as a person who had grown up 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.840 ironically boxing in the police, athletically and everything else, and 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:46.320 being sent to prison for life. Right, that's a surreal 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.080 enough experience. Two years in jail waiting for your trial 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:54.120 and then going to a maximum security prison and reading 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.320 about your case. I know that you were in solitary 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.120 confinement for extended periods of time. What was that like 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.480 and how did you survive that? How did you? I mean, 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.080 how does your brain still even like not not melt down? 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:07.639 And I know you're You're a guy. You were talking 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.000 before about how you maintain a positive attitude and you 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.480 don't carry around the bitterness and everything else. You got 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:15.760 to explain how that's possible. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:24.480 It's very strindous, Like I say it, that's solitary confinement. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.400 Well shattered anybody's psyche. You're in the cell twenty three 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.280 and one. The light doesn't go off and it stays 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.560 on all day. The walls is all white. You know, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.440 you start to see things after a while. A lot 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.200 of people do do their time different Me and myself. 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.920 I was an avid reading writer once I got my education, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.440 So the majority of time that I'm in the cell, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.040 I'm either working out on writing, on reading some mail 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:53.480 that I got, and. 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.600 I balanced my day. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.000 A lot of people, you know, don't have that balance, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.480 and they don't have things to do, so they'll sit 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.440 there and then they'll. 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:04.680 Start freaking out after a while. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:06.639 Or some guys, you know, they get a hooked on 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:11.240 medication and they will never be the same person once 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.600 they family see him again. And this could go on 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.560 for long periods of time. And I want to bring 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.239 this to the attention in Pennsylvania. It's not like New 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.320 York where you could go see the parole board. A 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.440 life sensus in Pennsylvania is a life sentens. Natural life 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:28.000 is no in betweens. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.359 Right, So you literally have nothing to look forward to 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.639 except for more of this torture. But how did you 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.000 end up in solitary confinement in the first place? 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:36.400 Being from New York? 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.640 I got a couple of tussles when I first got there, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.679 not in major with minor, and that led to me 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.920 being sent to RHU restricted housing unit. 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.679 Was this because people were picking a fight with you 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:53.879 or try to attack you, or it's. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.120 Very geographical over there, and then being from a state 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.760 and out of your own from New York is like 0:18:59.400 --> 0:18:59.720 it's on? 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.480 Is more of that in the prison? Unfortunately? 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.680 A lot of times, like if you let things go, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.400 you'll be preyed upon a lot. 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.399 Right, you either have to stand up for yourself and 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.680 then take the wrath of the authorities. We're going to 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:20.120 put you in this solitary confinement hole that you know 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.160 you may never recover from. But at the same time, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.880 you don't really have any choice, you know. So how 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.160 long were you in solitary confinement, for I. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.960 Spread sometimes ninety days almost six months. 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.359 Ninety days or six months is such a long time 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.480 when we think about ninety days and the outside right 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.800 of doing anything ninety days or six months in a 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.280 tiny cell with white walls, like I said, and the 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.680 fact that the light doesn't go off like that's just torture, 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.440 Like that should be outlawed under the Geneva Convention. I mean, 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.400 that's crazy, Like why why is that nest necessary? 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:00.880 I mean? 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.239 And do you even have a sense of time in there? 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.320 Do you have a clock? No clock? 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.800 Basically, once you're there, you could tell the time we 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:13.359 shift change in recreation, what time they feeds you, what 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.160 time the medication come on the block. So pretty much 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.120 you know, you become in tune with your environment. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.320 Can you describe what a typical day is like in 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:39.639 solitary confinement, because it's just it's unimaginable to me that, 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:42.280 I just I can't. 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:48.640 Well, does paint your bathroom white and sit inside. 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.280 Of it for twenty four hours and then you get 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.280 a sense, right, except probably I'm guessing the typical person 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.879 listening to that bathroom is probably nicer, right, at least has. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.160 A couple of ye a little compared to what's going 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:01.480 on in. 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:06.720 There, right. And it's interesting too and sort of scary 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.480 to note that one of the judges ruling on your 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.440 appeal dissented, saying, this is a quote. I dissent from 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.439