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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower.

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Speaker 3: Courts all the way up to the United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 2: in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are

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Speaker 2: guilty when you see them on TV, because it may

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Speaker 2: just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. I'm very excited to have as our guest

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Speaker 4: today an extraordinary man, a gentle giant of a person, actually,

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Speaker 4: Lorenzo Johnson.

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Speaker 5: Lorenzo Johnson's life changed on December fifteenth, nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 5: he and Corey Walker were charged with murdering Taraj Williams

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Speaker 5: in Harrisburg.

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Speaker 6: Twenty two years in prison for Lorenzo Johnson, a crime

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Speaker 6: he says he didn't commit.

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Speaker 5: And in twenty twelve, the federal Appeals Court released him

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Speaker 5: from prison, saying there was insufficient evidence.

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Speaker 7: He went home to New York for five months, but

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Speaker 7: had to go back to prison after the Attorney General appealed.

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Speaker 7: But for the first time in two decades, investigators have

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Speaker 7: turned over the original police report and it raises new questions.

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Speaker 7: Johnson says it's key evidence he should have had it

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Speaker 7: as trial. For the first time, he found out police

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Speaker 7: took fingerprints at the crime scene. He also learned Carla Brown,

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Speaker 7: a key witness against him during his trial, was once

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Speaker 7: labeled a suspect. On top of that, a new witness

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Speaker 7: has come forward saying he was with Johnson in New

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Speaker 7: York the knight of the murder. The Attorney General's office

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Speaker 7: has been investigating the case all year.

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Speaker 6: Now he walks free the court's agreeing with him after

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Speaker 6: a long battle. The judge accepted Johnson's no contest pleased

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Speaker 6: to a lesser charge of third degree murder, and he

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Speaker 6: now begins immediate parole.

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Speaker 7: He's anxious to be free again.

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Speaker 4: Lorenzo, thank you for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: Lorenzo, your story is insane. I can say that, and

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Speaker 4: you actually lived through it. You know. The more I've

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Speaker 4: learned about you and your story, the more incredible I

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Speaker 4: find it that you have this amazing spirit and this

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Speaker 4: calm demeanor after having gone through this unimaginable nightmare. It's

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Speaker 4: it's crazy. So let's let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 4: You're a New Yorker like me from Yonkers. What was

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Speaker 4: life growing up like in Yonkers?

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Speaker 1: A nice life for Bencus. You know, as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I box for the Police Athletic League. I did that

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Speaker 1: for a couple of years. You know, I want to

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Speaker 1: kick close the Junior Olympics in New York.

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Speaker 4: So you grew up boxing, living a pretty normal life.

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Speaker 4: You weren't like a hoodlum or anything. You didn't get

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Speaker 4: any real trouble, no violent felonyhing. Some people say, well,

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Speaker 4: if he got caught up in the system, he must

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Speaker 4: have been a bad guy in the first place. No,

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Speaker 4: you didn't have any kind of history like that whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: And yet you end up getting caught up in this

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Speaker 4: vicious machine, this criminal justice machine. So this case was

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Speaker 4: a murdered case. Taraj Williams was killed outside the bar

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Speaker 4: in Harrisburg. Did you have any knowledge of this? Did

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Speaker 4: you know Taraj Williams?

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Speaker 1: I know him full, seen him around, but didn't know

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Speaker 1: him as far as like to call him a friend

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. And I wasn't there when it happened,

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Speaker 1: like I wasn't in the state, so I had no

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Speaker 1: knowledge of what was going on or.

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Speaker 3: What took place.

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Speaker 4: Oh, you were a couple hundred miles away in New York?

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Speaker 3: Is that?

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Speaker 4: And one of the crazy things is that you could

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Speaker 4: have proven, if you had access to proper attorneys, that

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Speaker 4: you had driven back from New York because you had

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Speaker 4: to received from the turnpike or even a camera right

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Speaker 4: that a camera that could have still shot. If somebody

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Speaker 4: would have just pulled that up, it would have proved

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Speaker 4: that it was impossible for you to have committed this murder,

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Speaker 4: because you know, you can't be in two places at

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Speaker 4: one time actly. But that's not what happened. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I'm sure people are scratching their head like I'm scratching

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Speaker 4: my head saying, okay, but how could you get convicted

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Speaker 4: of a crime when you weren't even in the same

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Speaker 4: area code, I mean zip code nothing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I fell into the hand of a

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Speaker 1: corrupt detective the day at the side took place. Me

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Speaker 1: and a group of friends came to New York and

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Speaker 1: we left Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, between three and four o'clock in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon, and we didn't come back until four or

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Speaker 1: five in the morning. This murder took place at twelve

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Speaker 1: o'clock midnight in Harrisburg, so when I came out at

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Speaker 1: eleven twelve o'clock later on noon, that would be December fifteenth,

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Speaker 1: and I got arrested for unrelated charge that was later dismissed.

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Speaker 1: But when I got arrested, I was told that you

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Speaker 1: committed a murder last night, and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what you talked about. I wasn't even in

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Speaker 1: the state last night, and being that I was from

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Speaker 1: New York, I was targeted saying that you know, I

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Speaker 1: got a witness that's gonna say it's you. And if

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Speaker 1: this witness come down here and if he says it's you,

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Speaker 1: You're going to jail, so me and know when I

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Speaker 1: ain't doing so well, you get your witness to let

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Speaker 1: him see me. Now, at the time, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of New York guys down there, So when this

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Speaker 1: witness came in, he said it wasn't him. Refront of me,

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Speaker 1: he said it wasn't him, but it was one of

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Speaker 1: his friends. So him saying that, it's like a broad statement,

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Speaker 1: like if it's a lot of New York guys down there,

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Speaker 1: you say one of my friends, it could be anybody. So,

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Speaker 1: to make a long story short, I went from the

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Speaker 1: one that was supposed to commit the murder to the

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Speaker 1: one who knows something about a murder. So on the

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Speaker 1: aspect of wanting me to lie on somebody, they said, well,

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Speaker 1: help us pind this murder on somebody. And I refuse

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Speaker 1: to cooperate with them. And when I refuse to cooperate

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Speaker 1: with them, they got high headed with me, and I

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be incarcerated for fleeting loom from police.

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Speaker 1: They gave me three counts of reckless endangement on each

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Speaker 1: cop and gave me a five hundred thousand dollars cash bell,

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Speaker 1: and they sent me to the county prison for that.

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Speaker 4: So Basically they wanted to keep you where they could

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Speaker 4: have leverage over you, right, because while you're in jail,

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Speaker 4: they're gonna make you think, mall, maybe I should play

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Speaker 4: ball with these.

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Speaker 1: Guys exactly, And that didn't take place. When I went

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Speaker 1: to my primary hearing, the case was dismissed. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do no running because I was innocent. So

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Speaker 1: like two weeks later, two to three weeks later, they

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Speaker 1: arrested me again. This time I was in the store

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Speaker 1: and they came and they locked me up, and I

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Speaker 1: looked at wanted to come up to take and I say,

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Speaker 1: you're coming at me with this again?

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Speaker 3: He said, no, it belongs to.

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Speaker 1: You now, and he had a futuitive warrant for me

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Speaker 1: for conspiracy to commit murder.

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Speaker 4: So at the time, you were working in the furniture

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Speaker 4: store and just sort of going along with sort of

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Speaker 4: a normal life, right, no ideas of anything that could

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Speaker 4: this could possibly happen to you, right, But who would

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Speaker 4: ever think that something like this could happen to you?

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Speaker 4: And that's that's one of the reasons I'm so glad

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Speaker 4: you're here and you haven't been out for that long.

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Speaker 4: When did you get out?

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Speaker 3: Two months July eleventh.

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Speaker 4: July eleventh, twenty seventeen. And I'm telling you, I want

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Speaker 4: everyone to understand that if this could happen to you,

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Speaker 4: it could happen to just about any would right, yes,

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Speaker 4: And so now this cop has a vendetta against you

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Speaker 4: because you wouldn't wrongfully identify somebody that you know. They

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Speaker 4: just wanted you to basically pull somebody out of it

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Speaker 4: and solve their problem. And then they're gonna let you go.

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Speaker 4: But then you're gonna have to walk around living for

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Speaker 4: the rest of your life with the idea that you

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Speaker 4: did to somebody what actually happened to you and you

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Speaker 4: ain't that guy exactly. So now they come back to

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Speaker 4: the store and they arrest you again. And now they're

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Speaker 4: now it's getting real serious because now they're like, you're

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Speaker 4: our guy. We decided right, But you still know you're innocent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's like unreal at first, because you

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Speaker 1: believe in the system. In the back of your mind,

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Speaker 1: you say, well, when we go to a hearing or

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Speaker 1: we go to court, the truth will come out. That's

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Speaker 1: what innocent prisons think in our heads, like when stuff

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Speaker 1: like this happened, and.

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Speaker 3: In my situation.

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Speaker 1: Every time I went to court, something different would take place, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of my alibi witness a turnover, and

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Speaker 1: there'd be a witness for the prosecution. And I have

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Speaker 1: no idea why did they, you know, change the statement.

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Speaker 4: Because there's a lot of things going on behind the

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Speaker 4: scenes that you can't possibly know about.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I came to prison, I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit education wise. You know, I achieved my

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Speaker 1: ged while I was in prison, I got college credits

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Speaker 1: while I was in prison, and I taught myself the

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Speaker 1: law while I was in prison, because later on in

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Speaker 1: my case, I wind up representing myself for three years.

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Speaker 4: So now things are getting really squirrely because there was

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Speaker 4: a witness who actually had been a suspect, right, and

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Speaker 4: should have actually probably been, I mean, somebody that the

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Speaker 4: cops took a much closer look at, but for some

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Speaker 4: reason they decided to get off of her and put

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Speaker 4: it all on you. And then there you would have

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Speaker 4: somebody who's a very incentivized witness, right, I mean, she's

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Speaker 4: trying to not go to prison for the rest of

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Speaker 4: her life. From what I've read, it seems like that's

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Speaker 4: a reasonable theory that she could have been the one

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Speaker 4: who did it. So yeah, it's not hard to draw

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Speaker 4: a line to see. Okay, well, why would she have

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Speaker 4: said what she said about you, Well, she didn't want

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Speaker 4: to take the blame herself.

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Speaker 1: In my situation, I never had a statement from the

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Speaker 1: chief witness. We was told that this witness never made

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Speaker 1: a statement, so we never had access to this witness statement.

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Speaker 1: We didn't get access to the witness statement to eighteen

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Speaker 1: and a half years later, and by this time I

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Speaker 1: was remanded back from my freedom from the United States

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: Right, And that's an important part of your story. One

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Speaker 4: of the things that's so crazy and crazy as a

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Speaker 4: mild word for it about your case is that, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you had a Brady violation. And people listen

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Speaker 4: to the show know that the Brady violation means that

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Speaker 4: the prosecution did not turn over evidence that they had

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Speaker 4: that would have been favorable to your case to the defense,

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Speaker 4: and that that's been outlawed by the Supreme Court n

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Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty four. Not only did they not turn

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Speaker 4: over exculpatory evidence, they actually lied about the existence of

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Speaker 4: it in the first place. And that's really a vicious

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Speaker 4: thing to do to somebody that they knew that every

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Speaker 4: reason to believe was innocent, which was you.

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Speaker 1: Once I come back and they turn over this withheld information,

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Speaker 1: we finally found out that the prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let force testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court. In the United States Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and they decisioned to reinstatement conviction. They used this witness

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Speaker 1: statement and the prosecution not once told the United States

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court listen with your quote in right here from

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Speaker 1: this witness at what this witness said in the statement.

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Speaker 4: Wow, then your situation gets crazier and crazier. You had

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Speaker 4: been for a total of how long by the time

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Speaker 4: you were freed sixteen and a half years sixteen and

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Speaker 4: a half years is now twenty twelve. You come out

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Speaker 4: into a world that's changed a lot, and you're trying

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Speaker 4: to figure out, I'm sure, how to get back on

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Speaker 4: your feet and get started again having been through this

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Speaker 4: incredible ordeal. But then you come out and an unbelievable

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Speaker 4: thing happens, right, and this is I mean, what we

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Speaker 4: did to you shouldn't happen to anybody. But how is

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Speaker 4: it possible that your conviction was overturned and the state

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Speaker 4: had nothing better to do at the highest level, right,

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Speaker 4: the Attorney General of Pennsylvania decided, Nope, I'm going after

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Speaker 4: this guy again. We haven't punished this guy enough yet

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Speaker 4: for something we know he didn't do. While we let

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Speaker 4: the real murderer go free. We're now going to go

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Speaker 4: and take this case all the way to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: In the Supreme but only here's one percent of criminal

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Speaker 4: cases that come before them too. So the Attorney General

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Speaker 4: of Pennsylvania, who, like I said, you would think would

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Speaker 4: have bigger things to worry about than reconvicting and innocent man,

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Speaker 4: but he decides, in a very vindictive and terrible move,

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Speaker 4: to take your case to the Supreme Court, and one

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Speaker 4: hundred and forty eight days after you were free, the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court reinstates your conviction and you got to go

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Speaker 4: back to President.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: I came home on January eighteen, twenty twelve, and once

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Speaker 1: I you know, reintegrated with my family, I began working

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Speaker 1: and Jeffrey Desovitch, you know, I met him right before

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Speaker 1: I came home, and his foundation helped me with reentry

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and you know he was showing me,

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Speaker 1: you know, he was bringing me with him on speaking

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Speaker 1: engagements and things of that nature. And uh, we formed

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Speaker 1: a nice bond. So one day I was at work

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Speaker 1: and I never forget. It was May twenty ninth, for

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Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and I worked for the same job been

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Speaker 1: working for today. I got a call between like nine

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Speaker 1: and ten o'clock in the morning. The voice was like muffled,

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Speaker 1: but I knew it was my lead attorney. But I

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Speaker 1: can d of say nothing he said because he was

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Speaker 1: crying on the phone, like he's very emotional. But what

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Speaker 1: I remember what he says is that your conviction has

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Speaker 1: been reinstated. You're gonna have to go back to prison.

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Speaker 1: And like when he said, I got numb because I

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Speaker 1: was like, I know he's serious because he's just crying

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Speaker 1: on the phone, but you know, I got numb because.

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Speaker 3: I have to go back to prison.

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Speaker 1: Is every zonay worst night, man, you know, especially after

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Speaker 1: going through the ordeal I went through the first time,

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Speaker 1: and now you got to go back and fight again.

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Speaker 1: So you know, all types of stuff is running through

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Speaker 1: your head, but everything is not registering because you go numb.

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Speaker 1: At first, You're like, nah, this is not true, Like

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Speaker 1: it gotta be something we could do to, you know,

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Speaker 1: make him see, you know, are innocent.

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Speaker 3: And the grounds that what.

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Speaker 1: I was released song was under insufficient evidence. That's equivalents

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Speaker 1: a not guilty verdict and bars the retrial. It's basically

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Speaker 1: a judicial exoneration. And there was no retrial. They had

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Speaker 1: one appeal left, and that was in the United States

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and my case was relisted three times, and

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Speaker 1: which is odd because you know, Supreme Court really normally

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Speaker 1: don't do that. So when my lawyer finished tell me

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Speaker 1: what took place, the United States Supreme Court reinstated in

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Speaker 1: my conviction all in one day with a per current

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Speaker 1: decision and didn't allow my legal team to brief our

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Speaker 1: arguments or oral argue our position, which is normal proceedures

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Speaker 1: for the United States Supreme Court when they take on

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Speaker 1: the case.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, once again, I'm numb to it.

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Speaker 1: That the fact that I'm at work and I go

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Speaker 1: drive down to Jeffrey Deserpus Foundation in Midtown. I would

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Speaker 1: just drive down there and I had my future wife

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Speaker 1: meet me down there, and stuff was down and I

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Speaker 1: went in there and that was I was just numb

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Speaker 1: because they knew what took place. I quote before I

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Speaker 1: got there, and I just sat there, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like I was in space somewhere for a

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Speaker 1: little while, Like I sat in the back room for

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Speaker 1: a minute. I was trying to gather myself because I

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Speaker 1: was home for one hundred and forty eight days.

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Speaker 3: No way in the world would I.

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Speaker 1: Think that I would have to go back to prison

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Speaker 1: for a crime I didn't commit for a second time.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean, you've already been exonerated. It's it's

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Speaker 4: just it sounds like double jeopardy. It sounds like a

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Speaker 4: nightmare that nobody who hasn't been through it could possibly understand.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk for a minute about this crazy experience

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Speaker 4: that you had as a person who had grown up

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Speaker 4: ironically boxing in the police, athletically and everything else, and

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Speaker 4: being sent to prison for life. Right, that's a surreal

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Speaker 4: enough experience. Two years in jail waiting for your trial

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Speaker 4: and then going to a maximum security prison and reading

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Speaker 4: about your case. I know that you were in solitary

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Speaker 4: confinement for extended periods of time. What was that like

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Speaker 4: and how did you survive that? How did you? I mean,

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Speaker 4: how does your brain still even like not not melt down?

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Speaker 4: And I know you're You're a guy. You were talking

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Speaker 4: before about how you maintain a positive attitude and you

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Speaker 4: don't carry around the bitterness and everything else. You got

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Speaker 4: to explain how that's possible.

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Speaker 1: It's very strindous, Like I say it, that's solitary confinement.

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Speaker 1: Well shattered anybody's psyche. You're in the cell twenty three

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Speaker 1: and one. The light doesn't go off and it stays

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Speaker 1: on all day. The walls is all white. You know,

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Speaker 1: you start to see things after a while. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people do do their time different Me and myself.

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Speaker 1: I was an avid reading writer once I got my education,

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Speaker 1: So the majority of time that I'm in the cell,

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Speaker 1: I'm either working out on writing, on reading some mail

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Speaker 1: that I got, and.

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Speaker 3: I balanced my day.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people, you know, don't have that balance,

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Speaker 1: and they don't have things to do, so they'll sit

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Speaker 1: there and then they'll.

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Speaker 3: Start freaking out after a while.

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Speaker 1: Or some guys, you know, they get a hooked on

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Speaker 1: medication and they will never be the same person once

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Speaker 1: they family see him again. And this could go on

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Speaker 1: for long periods of time. And I want to bring

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Speaker 1: this to the attention in Pennsylvania. It's not like New

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Speaker 1: York where you could go see the parole board. A

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Speaker 1: life sensus in Pennsylvania is a life sentens. Natural life

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Speaker 1: is no in betweens.

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Speaker 4: Right, So you literally have nothing to look forward to

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Speaker 4: except for more of this torture. But how did you

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Speaker 4: end up in solitary confinement in the first place?

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Speaker 3: Being from New York?

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Speaker 1: I got a couple of tussles when I first got there,

358
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Speaker 1: not in major with minor, and that led to me

359
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Speaker 1: being sent to RHU restricted housing unit.

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Speaker 4: Was this because people were picking a fight with you

361
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Speaker 4: or try to attack you, or it's.

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Speaker 1: Very geographical over there, and then being from a state

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Speaker 1: and out of your own from New York is like

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Speaker 1: it's on?

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Speaker 3: Is more of that in the prison? Unfortunately?

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Speaker 1: A lot of times, like if you let things go,

367
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Speaker 1: you'll be preyed upon a lot.

368
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Speaker 4: Right, you either have to stand up for yourself and

369
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Speaker 4: then take the wrath of the authorities. We're going to

370
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Speaker 4: put you in this solitary confinement hole that you know

371
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Speaker 4: you may never recover from. But at the same time,

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Speaker 4: you don't really have any choice, you know. So how

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Speaker 4: long were you in solitary confinement, for I.

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Speaker 1: Spread sometimes ninety days almost six months.

375
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Speaker 4: Ninety days or six months is such a long time

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Speaker 4: when we think about ninety days and the outside right

377
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Speaker 4: of doing anything ninety days or six months in a

378
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Speaker 4: tiny cell with white walls, like I said, and the

379
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Speaker 4: fact that the light doesn't go off like that's just torture,

380
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Speaker 4: Like that should be outlawed under the Geneva Convention. I mean,

381
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Speaker 4: that's crazy, Like why why is that nest necessary?

382
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Speaker 3: I mean?

383
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Speaker 4: And do you even have a sense of time in there?

384
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 4: Do you have a clock? No clock?

385
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Speaker 1: Basically, once you're there, you could tell the time we

386
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: shift change in recreation, what time they feeds you, what

387
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 1: time the medication come on the block. So pretty much

388
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Speaker 1: you know, you become in tune with your environment.

389
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Speaker 4: Can you describe what a typical day is like in

390
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Speaker 4: solitary confinement, because it's just it's unimaginable to me that,

391
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Speaker 4: I just I can't.

392
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Speaker 3: Well, does paint your bathroom white and sit inside.

393
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Speaker 4: Of it for twenty four hours and then you get

394
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Speaker 4: a sense, right, except probably I'm guessing the typical person

395
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Speaker 4: listening to that bathroom is probably nicer, right, at least has.

396
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Speaker 3: A couple of ye a little compared to what's going

397
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Speaker 3: on in.

398
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Speaker 4: There, right. And it's interesting too and sort of scary

399
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 4: to note that one of the judges ruling on your

400
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 4: appeal dissented, saying, this is a quote. I dissent from

401
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 4: that portion of the majority's decision which upholds the conviction

402
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 4: of Lorenzo Johnson for first degree murder and criminal conspiracy.

403
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 4: The judge continued by saying, I believe there is no

404
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 4: direct evidence, nor can any be inferred linking defendant Johnson

405
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 4: to the death of Taraja Williams, nor any agreement with

406
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 4: defendant Walker which resulted in Williams's death. So that judge

407
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 4: is saying you didn't do it.

408
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: That judge is brad Lee Schill, and that decision came

409
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: out in nineteen ninety eight from the Pennsylvania Superior Court.

410
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: He's now the federal judge. That decision he made. That

411
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Speaker 1: was the first judge that ever made a ruling on

412
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Speaker 1: my insufficient evidence claim in my whole appeal process.

413
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Speaker 3: And so the federal court released me on that ground.

414
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: All the other judge that was on the panel with them,

415
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: all of them went.

416
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: With the trial judge.

417
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 1: They believed they suck with the child judge decision, and

418
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Speaker 1: it took from ninety eight to twenty twelve for them

419
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: to come up with this decision from the Third Circuit

420
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Speaker 1: Court of Appeals.

421
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Speaker 4: So it's amazing that in spite of the fact that

422
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Speaker 4: it took two years for you to even get the trial,

423
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 4: two years in a jail waiting for your trial, but

424
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Speaker 4: then the trial. I mean, they didn't really take their

425
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 4: time in convicting you, and the Supreme Court there certainly

426
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 4: didn't take its time in reversing your exoneration. They did

427
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 4: it in one day.

428
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Speaker 3: My trial was only two and a half days.

429
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 4: Two and a half days for a lifetime in prison.

430
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Speaker 1: They felt four people, the victim family never got justice.

431
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: My family suffered the injustice. Krey Walker family suffered an

432
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 1: injustice in society as a whole. You got innocent people

433
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: in prison. Why the person who did it is on

434
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Speaker 1: the street.

435
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 4: In this case, there was not only one piece of

436
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 4: exculpatory evidence that was withheld from your defense, right, there

437
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 4: was a lot. And I'm going to go through the list, okay,

438
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,959
Speaker 4: and you can jump in any time you want, but

439
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 4: this is some of the things that were not turned

440
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 4: over that should have been turned over, that are required

441
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 4: to be turned over by the law. A discrediting statement

442
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 4: to the police by the one eyewitness, Carla Brown, which

443
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 4: you and your attorneys were told didn't exist, But it did,

444
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: right there was withholding there and it was lying. Eight

445
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 4: pages of the original police report were never turned over,

446
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 4: and that police report investigating the murder showed that, among

447
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 4: other things that it showed was that Carla Brown was

448
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 4: a suspect in the murder. So the only witness, let's

449
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 4: process this for a second, the only witness, the only

450
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 4: thing that led to your conviction at all, because there

451
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: was no physical evidence someone who was stowed on crack,

452
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 4: high on crack, who was a suspect in the murder.

453
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 4: But they didn't bother to tell you, guys.

454
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: The first A pages my discovery was missing, along with

455
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: a couple hundred other pages. And once we did get

456
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: the first A pages, we saw that their witness was

457
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: labeled suspect in the same homicide.

458
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 4: Okay, that's deep, that's deep.

459
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 3: That's deep.

460
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 4: But there's more. There were new statements by other witnesses

461
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 4: that showed that miss Brown, Carla Brown, the same person

462
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 4: we're talking about, the only person that matters in this

463
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 4: particular situation. Here was an addict at the time of

464
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 4: the murder and may have been involved herself, which gave her,

465
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: of course, the ultimately incentive to cooperate with the police.

466
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: Right, you had two.

467
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: Other witnesses that they had that put Hug in the

468
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: alleyway when the shot was fired. Two of their witnesses

469
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: said that they believe it was Hunt in the alleyway

470
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: with him. That strengthens their own case that you know

471
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: that this person was a suspect, whereas you have one

472
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: witness against me, but you have three witnesses.

473
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: This pointed finger the other way.

474
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: And there were statements by witnesses who said that they

475
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 4: did not see you there exactly. So I'm picturing the

476
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 4: scales of justice right now, right and it seems like

477
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 4: it's all tipped to one side, and that side is

478
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: you go home while we go look for the person

479
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: that did this.

480
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: What happened was, like I told you earlier, every step

481
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: of my case, things started changing, like my alibi witness

482
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: one on recandidate statement and turned into.

483
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 3: The motive witness for the case.

484
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: My case was bounced over because a jacket was supposed

485
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: to be stolen from my co defendant.

486
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: Now This is from the plenary hearing to trial.

487
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: It was bound over because the deceased was supposed to

488
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: stole the jacket from my co defendant. Once my alibi

489
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: witness recantiate her statement. Now they became at trial over

490
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: a drug debt, so it was a varianson indictment because

491
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: they changed the reason why it was boundley for court

492
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: and they bought a whole new theory.

493
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: In listening to this story, sounds like something that could

494
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 4: only happen in the country where they really don't believe

495
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 4: in the system of laws.

496
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: It's hard when, like I said, when you go on

497
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: against the prosecution, they got endless resources. It's like when

498
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: you inno sense, like trying to breathe underwater. When you

499
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: think they've done, they're not done. Something new comes up

500
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: in well.

501
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: And this is so crazy because they kept getting thrown

502
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 4: more pieces of information, all of which led to the

503
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 4: same conclusion, which is that you were innocent. And every

504
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 4: time they got another one of these pieces of evidence,

505
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 4: they had to come up with new lives in order

506
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 4: to keep this case alive and in order to bury

507
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 4: you in the way that they did. And it's crazy

508
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 4: to me that everyone knows that You're not allowed to

509
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: bribe a witness. You're not allowed to go to one

510
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 4: of the witnesses and say, I'm gonna give you fifty bucks,

511
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give you one thousand dollars, whatever it is. Oh,

512
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: I needed for you to say that I did blah

513
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 4: blah blah, or that I was at such. You can't

514
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 4: do that. That you go to prison for that. But

515
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 4: the government is allowed to make the most incredible deal

516
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 4: with a witness, which is that they can say, listen

517
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 4: with you know that little robbery thing got or this

518
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: other thing you got, We're gonna make that disappear. All

519
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 4: you gotta do is participated in this murder. And that's

520
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 4: another crazy thing. Right. Nobody ever said that you shot

521
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 4: the shot, right, No one ever said you were the murderer.

522
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 4: It was like you were there. I'm scratching my head.

523
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 4: You got sentenced to life in prison for allegedly being

524
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 4: somewhere where a murder was committed. That whole thing is

525
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: another outrage in this case. And there's still more to this, right,

526
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 4: There's still the other thing, which was there was a

527
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: statement by another man who knew that you were in

528
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 4: New York at the time of the murder, and that

529
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 4: guy the cops managed to figure out how to get

530
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: him not to come forward by making up a story

531
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 4: that you had snitched on him, right, And this is

532
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: so much work, Right, when these police officers could have

533
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: been out catching a real rapist or solving a different

534
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 4: kind of crime or whatever. Well, the amount of time

535
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: and effort that they had to put into framing you

536
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 4: is absolutely bananas, I mean. And all of this goes

537
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: back to the fact that you were convicted of a

538
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 4: murder on the basis of one eyewitness who testified at trial, right,

539
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 4: no physical evidence, and you had your alibis, and that

540
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 4: was it, and that was enough to send you to

541
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: prison for the rest of your life.

542
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: When you're telling the truth, you can stand on it.

543
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: But when you're telling the lies, like when you pour

544
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: water on dirt, he's just gonna turn the mudget and

545
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: you step on it, just gonna keep caving in and

546
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: caving in and caving in. And this is what took place,

547
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: and it's still taking place.

548
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 4: And it's terribly common what happened to you, I mean,

549
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 4: as much as it's uncommon, because in your case, you

550
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 4: were wrongfully convicted twice. But what is not uncommon about

551
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 4: your case is the incidence of prosecutorial suppression of sculpatory evidence.

552
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: What we've been talking about the Brady violation. I did

553
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: want to ask you too. One of the things, on

554
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 4: top of all the other things that is so disturbing

555
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: to me personally about your case is the fact that

556
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 4: after twenty two years, two false convictions, all the lies

557
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 4: and dirty tricks that the government could throw at you,

558
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: twenty two years behind bars, solitary confinement, all the deprivations

559
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: that go with all that stuff, and then finally they

560
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 4: made you a deal that you really couldn't say no to, right,

561
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 4: which was that they made you plead down to a

562
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 4: lesser charge in order to gain your freedom. Right.

563
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 3: It's a shame, and they believe it or not.

564
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: That's more more bitter about that time being incarcerated.

565
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: Wow, And you know I'm bitter.

566
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: I'm very bitter about that because basically, my trust in

567
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: the judicial system been shattered ever since the United States

568
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: Supreme Court made that ruin against me in twenty twelve,

569
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: And every time one of your pill gets denied as

570
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: an innocent prisoner, and when you're serving the life centers

571
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: of big numbers a part of your family member dies

572
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: because they feel that they never going to see you again.

573
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 3: So my period of time twenty.

574
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: Two years is like and then them getting a chance

575
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: to be united with me after sixty and a half years,

576
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: and then that's taken back from them.

577
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: You can see your family's pain and how can I

578
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: say it? You want to bring it to an end.

579
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: And that's what they really forced my hand, because I

580
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: could have went in one The only thing is the cross,

581
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: the pill. Another three and a half to five years

582
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: waiting and you hoping that another judge don't do nothing crazy,

583
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: which happened to me already. So you know it's like

584
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: should I put my faith back in them or should

585
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: I just tuck and roll and go ahead and live

586
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: my life? And as my family is like the most

587
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: part is like me and myself as a man, I

588
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: would rather be in prison right now than having a

589
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: felony on my jacket A son I ain't due, but

590
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: to stop my family's paying I had to sacrifice myself.

591
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: The prosecution, their whole thing is this. They want to

592
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: maintain a conviction by any means. After all this evidence

593
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: of police misconduct, prosecution misconduct, that same prosecutor got understand

594
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: and said he felt strongly his evidence against me.

595
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: Now, how is this possible? I didn't mysteriously come to court.

596
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm down here because of misconduct and the judge of

597
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: what what the evidentiary hemorrhage because of that, you know,

598
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: I'm sitting back on the streets for a second time

599
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: coming from a natural life sentence.

600
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: I'm not here for good behavior. I'm here because it.

601
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: Was issues that had merit on them that I was innocent,

602
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: But I was forced to take this polea bargain or

603
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: gamble with the judicial system again. And how can I say? Like,

604
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: it's a bittersweet, like a lot. Every day I wake up,

605
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: I regret it. But at the same time, it's like

606
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: people that have been in my shoes, they know what

607
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: it is. It's easy for somebody to say what they

608
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: would do, what they won't do. But you know, like

609
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: I said earlier, I went through everya z Armie, worst

610
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: night man. You tell his zonnemies, you got to go

611
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: back to prison and do that time all over again.

612
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: You're never getting out of prison. Listens in the box,

613
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: you see how their whole life just changes. So me,

614
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: my passion, I always been to speaker about wrong for convictions,

615
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: But now with these, please, don't innocent person should have

616
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 1: to spend a second in jail, take a plea, bargain

617
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: of anything to get out of prison when they're innocent.

618
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 3: And the prosecution knows this.

619
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 4: Well. They have so much power, so it's so tilted,

620
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,239
Speaker 4: and nobody can fault you for making the decision that

621
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: you did when you know you were already framed twice.

622
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 4: Why would you believe that the system's going to be

623
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: fair the third time? You know exactly? And again, I mean,

624
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 4: you're somebody who cares deeply about your family and your community.

625
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 4: You want to be out here for them. What the

626
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 4: hell are you going to do? I mean, it's hard

627
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: for me to even hear this stuff because yeah, I

628
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 4: don't even know. I don't even know what to say.

629
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: I mean, is deep and like you know, emotions it

630
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: flairing here and there with people in my position. They

631
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, Like, it doesn't stop me from

632
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: doing what I gotta do.

633
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: I don't look at myself different. I'm just bitter that

634
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: I had to go through that.

635
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: And that's a big problem that's going on, that's being

636
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: swept under the rugs. It's a lot of innocent people

637
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: that's being forced to take.

638
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 3: Please.

639
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I've been forced to take a no contest

640
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 1: plea to maintain my innocence. By the end of the day,

641
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: I still got a phoney on my jacket because this

642
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: is a part of a plea. Though I didn't I

643
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: didn't plead guilty, but you still got the conviction on me.

644
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: It's like that they got their last little digging you

645
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 4: after you know, they didn't like you proving them wrong basically,

646
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: and they decided to take one more shot at you.

647
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: And being vocal like, like I told you, in Pennsylvania,

648
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: you don't have that. Besides, Mamabu Jamore, you won't hear

649
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: a prison in Pennsylvania with ties of social media the

650
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: way I had ties to social media of them coming

651
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: to see me on a visit in prison, you know,

652
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: and things of that nature. They you know, you can't

653
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: bring a camera into prison in Pennsylvania.

654
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: So the only you know, social media and.

655
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: People from Fox and ABC that was coming to see me,

656
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: they had to come see me with pay the paper.

657
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: But you know, when they see stuff like, they don't

658
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: like that. And my whole thing is why you don't

659
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: like it?

660
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 4: Because the exploit what's going on, Yeah, exposes them for

661
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: doing things that they've been getting away with for a

662
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 4: long time that they can't get away with anymore, or

663
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: they're going to be They're gonna be more Lorenzo Johnson's

664
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 4: and a lot and none of us want to see that.

665
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: I would like to get your advice because many people

666
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 4: who listen to this show want to know what they

667
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 4: could do. Here you are out for two months and

668
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 4: already advocating and showing up and doing interviews like this,

669
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 4: and you know, being an example and a role model.

670
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 4: If somebody's listening right now and say this is outrageous,

671
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 4: I'm angry. I don't want to ever see something like

672
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 4: this happen to somebody again. What would be off the

673
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 4: top of your head.

674
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: Let's just say, law students, you know, law students, they

675
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: should review a wrong for conviction case just to get

676
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: an idea of what's out there. And why I say

677
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: that is like my trial attorney was fresh out of

678
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: school and here it is represent me on a natural

679
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: life sentence.

680
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: I was facing. Was very green to what was going on,

681
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: and everything literally flew overhead.

682
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: Wrongful convictions need to be paid heavily attention to for

683
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: the last three years, it had record numbers of his

684
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: oonerations and.

685
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 3: A lot of people acts.

686
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: But why do guys spend so long in prison because

687
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: they constantly fight you. The average innocent prison that's fortunate

688
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: to be exonerated spends between thirteen and a half to fifteen.

689
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: Years in prison.

690
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: Wrongful convictions need to be fought not only inside the courtroom,

691
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: but outside of the courtroom, as far as what you

692
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: could do. Your vote counts. Pay attention to when someone

693
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: is his oonerated, Pay attention to why does district attorney

694
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: still have their job after they was found lible of

695
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: intentionally convicting an innocent person.

696
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: I really think that's such an important message for our audience.

697
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 4: And you have a website too, right, what's your website?

698
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: It's free Lorenzo Johnson dot org.

699
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 4: Lorenzo was talking earlier about how there were so many

700
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 4: good people that got active and got involved, and it

701
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 4: all starts with you, right, because you had the energy

702
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: and the sense and the and the you know, you

703
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 4: educated yourself. You created basically a movement that ended up

704
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 4: involving people from all fifty states and fifty three countries

705
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 4: who all wrote letters on your behalf. That's incredible. I mean,

706
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 4: to be able to do that from inside of prison

707
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 4: is nuts. I mean, that's an amazing accomplishment. And it

708
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 4: must feel good to know that there's that many good

709
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 4: people out there who are on your side.

710
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: It definitely gives you, you know, it gives you energy

711
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: because you got people that take their time out, they

712
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: data write you. You got people that fight for you

713
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: that you never saw before in your life.

714
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: You know.

715
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: You got people that come to your rallies, you know,

716
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: and they demanding release and they never met you before.

717
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 4: Lorenzo, this has been an extraordinary experience and I can't

718
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 4: thank you enough for sharing your story with me and

719
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 4: the audience. We have a tradition here at Wrong for Conviction,

720
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 4: which is that I like to just turn it over

721
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: to you in case there's anything else that you want

722
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 4: to share, any thought at all about anything. I just

723
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: turned the microphone over to you and let you go.

724
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm a firm believer now that you know. All I

725
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: know is the fight in justice. So you know, when

726
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: I meet other Azana rees such as Kean Anthonys, Jeffrey Dsovich,

727
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: the Derek Hamilton's a lot of these people I never

728
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: met before, but by reading the articles and things that

729
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: I need to. But we all share the same thing

730
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: that was in prison for something we didn't do. And

731
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: why I come in then is because they're out here

732
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: fighting on front line, and that's where I need to

733
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: be at because when I was in prison betweeny two years,

734
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: it was so hard for me to get help. You know,

735
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: I didn't get help until the end of my time span,

736
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: Like I had to represent myself for three years straight.

737
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: So I say for people to get involved with your

738
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: local innocent projects, you know, get involved with pro bono

739
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: lawyers who fight for innocent prisons.

740
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 3: Why do you elect an office?

741
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: And if a district attorney has a checker past, why

742
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: pitiment office?

743
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: That's like the fox got gardener hens the end house.

744
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 4: No, And I'm glad you mentioned that it's so important

745
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 4: to get out of voting your local district attorney's races.

746
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: Your vote means a lot because most people don't vote

747
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: in those races, and you can make such a difference

748
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: just by taking out the corrupt characters and replacing them

749
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 4: with people who actually believe in the rule of law

750
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: and believe in doing the right thing.

751
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed like when you have a corrupt cop,

752
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: you always see, oh the screeze cops such and such,

753
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: such and such, he's blasted all over the place. But

754
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: when you see a district attorney who was found liable

755
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: for wrongfully convicting someone, the story goes away. They're still

756
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: in office. You don't hear anything else.

757
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 4: What else can I say, Lorenzo, I mean, this has

758
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 4: really been an amazing experience to be with you. I'm

759
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 4: so happy to see you here.

760
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 3: I'm here, I'm here, and I'll be back.

761
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 4: And once again, it's free Lorenzo Johnson dot org. So

762
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 4: it's free, Lorenzo Johnson dot org. Go to the website

763
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 4: learn more about it, and thank you for listening to

764
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 4: this extraordinary episode of wrongful conviction. Don't forget to give

765
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 4: us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It

766
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 4: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project,

767
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 4: and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this

768
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 4: very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.

769
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 4: Go to Innocensproject dot org to learn how to donate

770
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 4: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

771
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 4: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

772
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 4: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

773
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 4: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

774
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 4: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

775
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 4: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

776
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 4: association with Signal Company Number one