WEBVTT - The Secrets of Silk 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.556 Pushkin. Today's show has some classic plain vanilla innovation, as 0:00:24.636 --> 0:00:27.596 people playing with lasers and trying to make new kinds 0:00:27.596 --> 0:00:32.036 of materials, people trying to improve vaccine delivery, people trying 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:35.836 to reduce food waste. But today's show also has some 0:00:35.916 --> 0:00:38.916 kinds of innovation that we don't hear so much about, 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:43.996 like thousands of years of selective breeding of caterpillars, also 0:00:44.596 --> 0:00:48.316 millions of years of caterpillar evolution that have created this 0:00:48.476 --> 0:00:53.436 amazing super thin, super strong fiber that the caterpillar spins 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:58.036 into a cocoon basically by doing three D printing, Which 0:00:58.116 --> 0:01:00.876 does it even count as innovation if a caterpillar does it? 0:01:01.556 --> 0:01:04.396 I'm going to go with yes. For the purposes of 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:13.236 this shoe, of this moment, I'm going to say yes. 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:15.636 I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem, the 0:01:15.636 --> 0:01:17.476 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:21.956 make technological progress. My guest today is Fiorenzo Omenetto. He's 0:01:21.956 --> 0:01:25.636 a professor of biomedical engineering at Tufts University and he 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:29.636 studies silk. Fiorenzo's problem is this, how do you turn 0:01:29.636 --> 0:01:32.156 a fabric people have been using for thousands of years 0:01:32.436 --> 0:01:38.636 into useful cutting edge materials. Fiorenzo's background is in physics 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:42.116 and optics, but he runs what's known as the Silk Lab. 0:01:42.476 --> 0:01:46.036 He and his colleagues take natural silk, isolate the key protein, 0:01:46.396 --> 0:01:50.076 and use it to create new useful stuff. Fiorenzo got 0:01:50.116 --> 0:01:53.076 into silk one day about twenty years ago when he 0:01:53.156 --> 0:01:56.236 ran into his colleague David Kaplan in the hall at work. 0:01:56.716 --> 0:01:59.396 David handed him something that looked like a little piece 0:01:59.436 --> 0:02:02.996 of plastic, but that turned out, of course to be silk. 0:02:03.796 --> 0:02:07.476 So David is responsible for me, for me working with silk. 0:02:07.676 --> 0:02:10.876 So my background is really technical, and I come from 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:14.996 material science laser physics, and with this background, I join 0:02:15.036 --> 0:02:18.036 a biomedical engineering department, which is already sort of like 0:02:18.396 --> 0:02:19.276 a leap of faith. 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:23.076 If you will, you're you're kind of a weirdo there, Yeah, 0:02:23.116 --> 0:02:29.556 I suppose, I suppose let's just stay orthogonal. Yes, that's 0:02:29.036 --> 0:02:32.836 a h I've been orthogonal in a lot of settings. 0:02:33.276 --> 0:02:34.156 I suppose, right. 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:37.036 Orthogonal too, orthogonal to a lot of sex. 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:42.836 Sorry, yes, orthogonal too. Yes, And we had a conversation 0:02:42.916 --> 0:02:45.116 in the hall. David's a tissue engineer, and and then 0:02:45.156 --> 0:02:49.876 the premise of tisser engineering is finding biocompatible materials that 0:02:49.956 --> 0:02:52.676 can enter the body and can serve as scaffolding for 0:02:52.796 --> 0:02:57.436 cells to rebuild our tissues. So we're in the hallway 0:02:57.436 --> 0:03:00.356 and he presents me with this like little piece of 0:03:00.476 --> 0:03:03.876 classic that was supposed to be a tissue engineering scaffold 0:03:03.916 --> 0:03:07.716 for a replacement CORNEA. Okay, but the cells weren't able 0:03:07.756 --> 0:03:10.236 to grow inside of it, And so said, can you 0:03:10.236 --> 0:03:13.076 can you maybe use your lasers to poke some holes 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:14.796 in it so that the cells can grow in and 0:03:14.796 --> 0:03:17.156 then if they permeate this, then they can regrow the 0:03:17.196 --> 0:03:19.676 corn it. So I took this this piece of plastic, 0:03:19.716 --> 0:03:21.356 I took it to the lab and I put a 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:24.116 laser beam on it, and I lost the laser beam. 0:03:24.116 --> 0:03:26.116 When I put the laser beam on this little piece 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:28.996 of plastic, I couldn't see the spot and an and 0:03:29.036 --> 0:03:31.956 to an optics geek like me, that means that the 0:03:32.036 --> 0:03:36.036 surface is incredibly smooth. It means that there's no scattering 0:03:36.116 --> 0:03:38.876 and this and this surface is very beautiful from an 0:03:38.876 --> 0:03:39.876 optical perspective. 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:42.036 When you say you lost it, you mean it just 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:44.236 kind of disappeared on there, like you didn't see a 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:45.756 little red dot or whatever. 0:03:45.836 --> 0:03:45.996 Is that? 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:46.676 What that means. 0:03:47.076 --> 0:03:49.316 That is exactly what it means. And generally you see 0:03:49.356 --> 0:03:51.196 the red dot when you have when you have some 0:03:51.316 --> 0:03:54.476 roughness that gives you the scattering and makes the spot visible. 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:56.316 And so that one question led to the other, and 0:03:56.396 --> 0:03:58.876 we started doing optics with it, and we started doing 0:03:59.036 --> 0:04:02.196 like these holograms and materials out of what turned out 0:04:02.196 --> 0:04:02.716 to be silk. 0:04:03.396 --> 0:04:06.156 Right, what what are your first ideas? So you realize, oh, 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:08.756 this is silk, and weirdly it has this property of 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:13.676 being crazy smooth. What do you think about doing with it? 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:14.876 Once you realize that. 0:04:14.876 --> 0:04:18.036 You basically have a construction material that starts from water 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:21.036 in a protein that floats around, and then you can 0:04:21.076 --> 0:04:25.476 turn it into multiple forms, so film, sponges, blocks, what 0:04:25.636 --> 0:04:29.156 have you. You can print it, you can spray it, 0:04:29.316 --> 0:04:33.396 you can predprinted, painted, et cetera. And all of this 0:04:33.596 --> 0:04:39.316 is in a format that is edible, implantable, and that, 0:04:39.436 --> 0:04:42.756 as we discovered as we went along, that also stabilizes 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:46.636 biological activity and you know, acts as a preservative for 0:04:46.796 --> 0:04:49.556 molecules that otherwise need to be refrigerated. Oh. Interest, So 0:04:49.556 --> 0:04:52.476 this is where things diverged. 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:56.236 And there are a lot of basically biological applications medical 0:04:56.276 --> 0:05:00.756 and sort of medical adjacent applications because this benign, naturally 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:04.916 occurring protein that is the essence of silk, has these 0:05:05.156 --> 0:05:06.196 wonderful properties. 0:05:06.396 --> 0:05:09.236 That's right, That's right, And so we started doing we 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:11.276 started doing things for fun. I mean, we started looking 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.276 at the optical properties. We started doing optical devices, and 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:17.756 we started doing imprinting, and we looked at where were 0:05:17.796 --> 0:05:19.796 the limits of fabrication that we could push. 0:05:20.036 --> 0:05:23.036 How much cool and useful stuff could you make with silk? 0:05:23.156 --> 0:05:26.636 Basically, that's right. And there's also you know, the wow factor, 0:05:26.676 --> 0:05:30.316 because you know, it's a very different format than having 0:05:30.396 --> 0:05:31.276 silk that looks like this. 0:05:31.516 --> 0:05:33.396 Yes, now you're holding up a silk scarf. 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:35.836 Now I'm holding up a silk carf. Yes. 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:39.396 So let's I want to get to a lot of 0:05:39.436 --> 0:05:42.316 the applications that have come out of your work. But 0:05:42.396 --> 0:05:44.676 before we do that, I just want to talk about 0:05:44.796 --> 0:05:50.156 silk for a few minutes, because it's interesting and it's 0:05:50.156 --> 0:05:52.516 sort of the core of why you've been working on 0:05:52.556 --> 0:05:56.276 this for almost twenty years, right, So, like, why is 0:05:56.356 --> 0:05:58.036 silk so amazing? 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:04.876 I wish I had like a like a one liner. 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:07.036 Let's talk about it. Let's just talk about silk tell 0:06:07.076 --> 0:06:07.796 me about silk. 0:06:08.476 --> 0:06:12.236 So silk, particularly textile silk, is one of the most 0:06:12.636 --> 0:06:16.596 engineered natural materials that there is. Legend has it, you know, 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:18.956 it wasn't quite the apple that fell from the tree, 0:06:18.956 --> 0:06:21.676 but it was the cocoon that fell from the tree 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:25.196 while a princess was drinking tea. Yes, and then this 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:27.436 lustrous fiber came off. 0:06:27.756 --> 0:06:31.156 This is in China, more than a thousand years ago. 0:06:31.156 --> 0:06:32.636 I mean, we know there's the myth, but we know 0:06:32.716 --> 0:06:34.956 that they've been making silk in China for more than 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:36.796 a thousand years certainly, right. 0:06:36.796 --> 0:06:38.716 But most importantly, I think that the thing that is 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:42.956 unappreciated is that the bombax morey caterpillar has been domesticated 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:45.796 for all of this time, with all the while the 0:06:45.876 --> 0:06:49.876 intrigue of the you know, of my line of silkworms 0:06:49.956 --> 0:06:53.556 produces a very fine silk. This other line of silkworms 0:06:53.916 --> 0:06:56.356 doesn't do as well. And so the finest products that 0:06:56.356 --> 0:06:58.716 you can get you get from a certain farm. This 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:02.596 was all the intrigue of optimizing, right. 0:07:02.836 --> 0:07:07.356 I mean, it's innovation, right, There are literally centuries of innovation, 0:07:07.436 --> 0:07:10.276 and just to just to say for I think most 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:13.276 people know, but like there's a particular worm. 0:07:13.356 --> 0:07:13.516 Right. 0:07:13.596 --> 0:07:18.596 The silkworm is whatever the larval form of a particular moth, right, 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:21.516 if I'm getting that right. And it spins its cocoon 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:26.636 out of this material that is basically silk or was 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:28.956 what they used to make silk, right, And it only 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:32.516 eats the mulberry tree bark or something right right, prefers 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:33.956 the mulberry tree bark. 0:07:34.356 --> 0:07:40.076 A majestically picky eater. Yes, And it's remarkable and. 0:07:40.516 --> 0:07:43.036 As I mean, as I understand it, the optimization it's 0:07:43.076 --> 0:07:47.836 actually they have through you know, breeding basically over time, 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:51.076 have made it so that the moths make more silkworms. 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.516 You get more silkworms, you get more silk, you know, 0:07:54.076 --> 0:07:58.156 more quickly. Right, So it already comes to us as 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:01.556 this incredibly optimized thing. There's nature has done a tremendous 0:08:01.556 --> 0:08:03.476 amount of work, and then people in China for a 0:08:03.516 --> 0:08:04.836 thousand years have done more. 0:08:04.756 --> 0:08:07.876 Right, that's right, And then it propagated all over the place. 0:08:07.876 --> 0:08:11.716 And it's really very technical. And so this agricultural crop 0:08:11.956 --> 0:08:14.756 the kids textiles that are very prized for their luster, 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:19.916 for their look, for their thermal properties, for their durability, right. 0:08:19.796 --> 0:08:23.836 Like great long underwear, right high right ers nice scar. 0:08:24.756 --> 0:08:27.796 Absolutely, there's like all sorts of all sorts of beautiful things. 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:29.956 But they come they come in this format. I mean, 0:08:29.996 --> 0:08:32.076 and I'm holding up a cocoon right now, they come 0:08:32.116 --> 0:08:32.796 in this format. 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:34.956 Is there? Is that a real cocoon? Or is that 0:08:35.076 --> 0:08:35.636 like a model? 0:08:36.476 --> 0:08:37.916 No? No, no, this is a real cocoon. 0:08:38.076 --> 0:08:41.236 Wait, hold it up again. So it's let's talk about it. 0:08:41.716 --> 0:08:44.316 Let me find here we go, let me find one. 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:46.876 That is how many cocoons do you have on your desk? 0:08:47.036 --> 0:08:48.756 You just put one down and picked up another one? 0:08:48.916 --> 0:08:52.716 We have We are full of cocoons. So you're holding it. 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:56.636 Okay, tell me about it. It's white, it's white, white, white, right, 0:08:56.676 --> 0:08:58.756 it's snow white. It looks on the picture. 0:08:58.796 --> 0:09:05.196 So it's a snow wide, giant giant, a giant bean. 0:09:06.116 --> 0:09:07.876 Yeah, it's bigger than a bean. I'm trying to think, 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:10.436 what is that size? Like if you smushed a ping 0:09:10.596 --> 0:09:13.356 pong ball into an oblong shape, would it be about 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:13.956 that size? 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:15.036 How about that size? 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:16.916 And you're holding it by a thread? Is that a 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:19.476 little silken thread that you're holding up? I can't even 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:20.436 see it. It's invisible. 0:09:21.036 --> 0:09:23.676 I'm trying to figure out there you can kind of 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:25.556 see it now maybe. 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:26.836 I mean it's cool that it's invisible. 0:09:27.956 --> 0:09:28.556 It's magic. 0:09:28.676 --> 0:09:30.716 It's like it's like a spider web, right, in fact, 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:33.876 spider webs. In fact, spider webs are quite similar. But 0:09:33.916 --> 0:09:36.596 it's hard to read spiders, right, that's what I read. 0:09:37.356 --> 0:09:41.476 So spiders cannot be domesticated, but but caterpillars can. There 0:09:41.516 --> 0:09:44.436 are billions of these cocoons, Yeah, there are, there are. 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:46.876 There are a lot, a lot a lot of these cocoons. 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:49.956 But the remarkable thing is that each cocoon is an 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:52.476 engineering wonder. Because if you take the cocoon and you 0:09:52.596 --> 0:09:55.116 unwind it, so you wash the glue away that the 0:09:55.116 --> 0:09:58.236 worms used to keep it together, or the caterpillars used 0:09:58.276 --> 0:10:01.116 to keep this together, and you pull, you have almost 0:10:01.156 --> 0:10:04.516 one kilometer of an interrupted thread, so ten micron thread 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:07.236 that is composed by two silk fibers that are held together. 0:10:07.636 --> 0:10:09.956 The ten microns means about it ten to the diameter 0:10:10.036 --> 0:10:13.596 of your hair. Each fiber is composed by two individual 0:10:13.596 --> 0:10:16.356 fibers that are held together by that glue that I 0:10:16.436 --> 0:10:19.636 mentioned before. And because there are two spinning glands in 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.676 the caterpillar and then and then all held together in 0:10:22.716 --> 0:10:27.116 this non woven format that is extremely resilient. It's something 0:10:27.196 --> 0:10:30.076 that you just can't tear and this and think there's 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:32.796 no weave in here. It's just the worm that is 0:10:32.836 --> 0:10:35.316 building up layer by layer by layer as it's building 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:35.836 this cocoon. 0:10:35.916 --> 0:10:38.556 It's like additive manufacturing. It's like three D printing. 0:10:38.956 --> 0:10:42.276 Yeah, it is absolutely that this is a biological three 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:45.156 D printer. It's a filamentary three D printer that builds 0:10:45.156 --> 0:10:47.676 a cocoon from the inside to I. 0:10:47.596 --> 0:10:51.156 Mean, yeah, yeah, the caterpillars on the inside doing it. 0:10:51.716 --> 0:10:56.316 So okay, So there's this incredible natural context to begin 0:10:56.356 --> 0:10:59.316 with this incredible thing that the silkworm does. And then 0:10:59.356 --> 0:11:02.116 on top of that, we have the kind of innovation 0:11:02.236 --> 0:11:06.476 and optimization of whatever one thousand plus years of farming 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:11.356 and you know, commercial and then you kind of walk 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:14.756 onto the stage and you realize, oh, this stuff is 0:11:14.796 --> 0:11:19.836 really cool and you start playing with it. And let's 0:11:19.876 --> 0:11:22.836 talk about some of the some of the things that 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:25.516 have come out of it. Right, it's not purely academic work. 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:27.036 There have been commercial spin offs. 0:11:27.276 --> 0:11:30.996 So the important qualities of the of the material fabrication 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:34.996 process that open up an endless kit of material wonder 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:38.516 are the fact, the end formats of material you can eat, 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:42.196 you can implant in the body. You can mix things 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:45.156 into this glass of water and silk, mix things that 0:11:45.236 --> 0:11:49.716 are delicate biologically, and you can preserve them, and then 0:11:49.756 --> 0:11:52.276 you can control the degradation of the materials. You can 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:55.516 dip them in water and they dissolve immediately, or you 0:11:55.516 --> 0:11:58.756 can dip in water and they'll stay put for years. 0:11:58.156 --> 0:12:00.556 Just depending on how you build it. 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:04.356 Essentially, how you put the proteins together. Imagine a bunch 0:12:04.396 --> 0:12:07.396 of a bunch of little lego pieces that are floating around, 0:12:07.476 --> 0:12:09.596 and depending on how hard you press it, the material 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:12.196 lasts more or less. And you can control, you know, 0:12:12.236 --> 0:12:14.036 the sizes of the bricks that you put in the 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:17.316 solution and how they're pressed together. And so to a 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:21.316 material scientist, having these functional aspects in the material just 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:24.596 is mind blowing because you can start really imagining. What 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:27.796 if you look at all the materials that surround you 0:12:28.076 --> 0:12:31.516 and you start saying, well, what if I could plant 0:12:31.556 --> 0:12:33.196 this in my garden, What if I could eat it? 0:12:33.236 --> 0:12:36.196 What if I could put biological communicators inside of what 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:39.876 if I could put chemistries inside here that are very 0:12:39.916 --> 0:12:43.556 difficult to put in by other means, so then this 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:46.516 just opens up a world of craziness, and so. 0:12:48.036 --> 0:12:50.756 Of the delightful craziness, right, good craziness. 0:12:51.516 --> 0:12:54.076 I think the thing that I still find myself very 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:58.476 surprised by is that after now nearly twenty years of 0:12:58.516 --> 0:13:01.276 working with this material, I think, I think I'm still 0:13:01.316 --> 0:13:04.476 as excited about the potential of this material as I 0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:05.956 was on day one. 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:11.116 Still to come on the show. Using silk to find 0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:14.916 a better way to deliver vaccines, and also using silk 0:13:14.956 --> 0:13:19.236 to help preserve fruits and vegetables, also more things to 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:30.556 do with silk. What's something that is in the world 0:13:30.636 --> 0:13:31.956 based on your work. 0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:35.396 One of the companies that is called Vaccess is now 0:13:35.476 --> 0:13:38.676 using silk based technology to do micro needle patches with 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:41.276 therapy that doesn't need to be refrigerated. So I imagine 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:44.276 just putting on a band aid rather than going took 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:47.356 place to get an injection and not having to worry 0:13:47.356 --> 0:13:50.316 about storing your therapy in the fridge. 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:52.956 Particularly important in the developing world. Right we take the 0:13:53.036 --> 0:13:55.276 cold chain for granted here, and yes it's a hassle 0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:56.916 to go to the pharmacy and get a shot, but 0:13:57.076 --> 0:13:59.836 like there are parts of the world where like, you know, 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:02.036 the vaccine has to be called from the time it's 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:04.916 made until it goes into your arm. Essentially, Yes, so 0:14:04.956 --> 0:14:06.916 it has to be in a truck and a ship 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:08.716 and everywhere. It has to stay cold, and you have 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:10.756 to have power, and there are big parts of the 0:14:10.756 --> 0:14:13.276 world where that just doesn't exist, right, So it actually 0:14:13.396 --> 0:14:16.236 is a real problem on a global scale. 0:14:16.596 --> 0:14:19.196 I would argue also that it potentially could become even 0:14:19.276 --> 0:14:22.676 more profitable. I believe that there's a lot of opportunities 0:14:22.676 --> 0:14:24.676 still out there for these classes of material to be 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:27.276 to generate an incredible amount of revenue. 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.836 I mean, do you mean just because it's cheaper, because 0:14:29.836 --> 0:14:31.836 if you don't have to keep it cold, it's more efficient, 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:33.756 or like what makes you think of or just because 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:36.516 people prefer what makes like I'm interested? I just what 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:38.756 makes you think of that? Here in the conversation. 0:14:39.436 --> 0:14:42.436 I think that the functional surprise is what makes this 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:45.476 an appealing product, and it makes it economically viable. I 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:49.036 think that having trying to substitute materials one for one 0:14:49.476 --> 0:14:53.796 is very difficult given the sophistication of what we have today. 0:14:53.956 --> 0:14:56.156 But I think that if your material manages to do 0:14:56.236 --> 0:14:59.116 something unexpected that brings more value to a. 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:01.476 Person saying it's not just not the cold chain, it's 0:15:01.556 --> 0:15:03.276 you don't have to get a shot, you just put 0:15:03.276 --> 0:15:04.636 this sticker on your arm. 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:07.356 It's a collection of things. And so the jury is 0:15:07.396 --> 0:15:09.556 out of whether this is true or not. I think 0:15:09.596 --> 0:15:12.476 the opportunity is big, but I see also that it 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:16.796 requires an enormous amount of dedication and it requires entrepreneurship. 0:15:16.156 --> 0:15:18.316 And that that side of it is clearly not not 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:20.836 your side. It seems as you're talking about. 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:22.116 It, Well, it can't be. 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:25.156 There are there are professors who also start companies. 0:15:25.516 --> 0:15:27.996 Yes, but I think that I'm a big believer of 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:30.596 the fact that you have to dedicate your full attention 0:15:30.716 --> 0:15:33.276 to something to bring it at ats maximum levels. 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:37.636 So there's there's another thing that that people are developing 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:40.356 based on on the work on your work and your 0:15:40.356 --> 0:15:44.996 colleagues work for for for vocal vocal cord, right what 0:15:45.156 --> 0:15:47.836 they call it vocal folds, but it's basically vocal cords. 0:15:47.876 --> 0:15:48.556 Tell me about that. 0:15:49.076 --> 0:15:50.956 So for example, one of the one of the examples 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:54.476 is that in certain cases, when you lose mechanical properties 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:57.436 in your vocal fold, your your vocal cords are not 0:15:57.516 --> 0:16:00.156 able to vibrate anymore and you and you lose your 0:16:00.196 --> 0:16:03.756 capacity to speak. And so one of the one of 0:16:03.836 --> 0:16:06.276 the strategies would be to restore the strength of the 0:16:06.316 --> 0:16:09.276 vocal fold so that you give mechanical ford it to 0:16:09.276 --> 0:16:12.676 to that. So we studied this formulation where imagine that 0:16:12.756 --> 0:16:16.756 you have a dense injectable jello that comes and stays 0:16:16.916 --> 0:16:20.076 and stays put in some place and mixes with your 0:16:20.156 --> 0:16:22.876 native tissue and makes it more fur I see. 0:16:23.036 --> 0:16:23.396 Okay. 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:26.396 So one of the companies that took the gel technology 0:16:26.396 --> 0:16:29.196 out studied this and they came up with an injectable 0:16:29.236 --> 0:16:33.716 format that restores the mechanical properties of the fold and 0:16:33.836 --> 0:16:36.756 actually gives the capacity to the patients to speak. Again. 0:16:36.996 --> 0:16:40.636 This is an FDA approved therapy, so it works. So 0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:45.556 it worked. So this is something that you can get today. 0:16:46.236 --> 0:16:50.196 Food preservation, somebody's working on using some silk based technology 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:52.756 to make fresh food stay good longer. Tell me about that. 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:56.756 So it turns out that the silk liquid is very 0:16:56.756 --> 0:16:59.956 good at coating objects. And if you take, for example, 0:16:59.956 --> 0:17:02.676 of strawberry and you dip it in water and silk 0:17:03.076 --> 0:17:05.996 so coats the strawberry with a thin layer of material 0:17:06.196 --> 0:17:09.596 that acts as a fruit preservative. And it's very effective 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:13.476 to prolong the shelf life at room temperature of materials 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:15.276 by a week or a couple of weeks. And then 0:17:15.676 --> 0:17:17.636 I guess it depends on what you use it on, 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:21.276 and every food as its own story. At the time, 0:17:21.356 --> 0:17:23.836 we in the lab, we tried it on bananas and 0:17:23.916 --> 0:17:26.836 on strawberries, and we saw that at room temperature we 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:30.756 could keep bananas and strawberries fresh for a extra week, 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:32.356 ten days or something like that. 0:17:32.836 --> 0:17:35.796 And so where is that sort of product in the 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:40.356 arc of commercialization, this silk based fruit, you know, preservative. 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:43.876 Honestly, I think that this is a question for the 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:47.716 company itself, but I know that some product has been 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:50.516 successfully applied to leafy greens, and I think that the 0:17:50.676 --> 0:17:55.396 that the use case there is the ability to enhance logistics, give. 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:57.996 You more time to get the greens from the farm 0:17:58.076 --> 0:17:59.356 to the table. 0:17:59.476 --> 0:18:02.556 Exactly, from from point A to point B and without refrigeration, 0:18:02.596 --> 0:18:03.436 which is a big deal. 0:18:03.676 --> 0:18:05.476 Okay, tell me what you're working on. 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:08.636 Now. What are we working on now? We're working on 0:18:08.716 --> 0:18:12.316 sense a lot. We have friends that design proteins that 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:15.396 are very very sensitive and very very specific. So there 0:18:15.436 --> 0:18:19.996 are possibilities of giving formats to say, things for example, 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:23.076 that detect hormones. So one of the things that we 0:18:23.156 --> 0:18:26.396 did recently was to make an ink with a design 0:18:26.516 --> 0:18:29.956 or a protein if you will, that was very sensitive 0:18:29.956 --> 0:18:32.556 and very specific to human estrogen receptor two, which is 0:18:32.596 --> 0:18:35.316 one of the one of the hormones that is responsible 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:38.876 for breast cancer. So you start imagining things like painting 0:18:38.956 --> 0:18:42.156 and the inside of a bra so that you have 0:18:42.236 --> 0:18:46.116 a monitor of recurrence for example, of or you have 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:48.476 a monitor for breast cancer. We did the same thing 0:18:48.516 --> 0:18:52.796 with toxins like bochulin and hepatitis beat, and so all 0:18:52.836 --> 0:18:55.596 of these things become very powerful when you have them 0:18:55.596 --> 0:18:59.116 in these different formats that are very unexpected. 0:18:59.516 --> 0:19:02.556 So the core thing you have ultimately with the silk 0:19:02.716 --> 0:19:08.916 is this benign stabilizing force, Right, That's the thing you're 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:11.916 flying in all these different detection settings. Is that, right, 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:18.996 a way to take whatever essentially detectors, these protein detectors 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:24.596 that might whatever decompose in other settings. You're stabilizing them 0:19:24.636 --> 0:19:26.836 in a very kind of safe, benign way. That seems 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:28.916 like the core thing that is happening in all these 0:19:28.916 --> 0:19:32.196 different use cases you're describing is that, right, That is true. 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:34.396 But the other thing that is very important is that 0:19:34.996 --> 0:19:37.836 you stabilize these and that's the functional part, but then 0:19:37.876 --> 0:19:41.196 you shape it, and the shapes are very very technological. 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:43.116 So the other thing that we're working on that is 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:46.076 very exciting is how to control silk and the nanoscale 0:19:46.076 --> 0:19:49.116 and actually have these things very precisely localized, and that 0:19:49.156 --> 0:19:52.956 can lead to really nice, nice interfaces with for example, 0:19:52.956 --> 0:19:53.956 with semiconductors. 0:19:54.516 --> 0:19:57.116 Say a little more about that one. 0:19:57.316 --> 0:19:59.836 So we had we had a recent paper where we 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:02.116 showed it in a transistor. We can put a thin 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:05.996 layer of silk within the transistor and we can use 0:20:06.156 --> 0:20:08.436 the state of silk to change the way that the 0:20:08.476 --> 0:20:09.756 transistors switches. 0:20:10.276 --> 0:20:13.876 Huh, switches, which is the fundamental thing a transistor does, 0:20:13.996 --> 0:20:15.356 goes from on off. 0:20:15.196 --> 0:20:18.276 Basically, that's right. So so if you can, if you 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:21.836 could imagine this multiplied by a Tralian transistors, Yeah, it 0:20:21.876 --> 0:20:25.036 would be a very powerful way to sense things, for example, 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:29.196 or to silk or channelized things. Yeah, why not. 0:20:31.596 --> 0:20:35.516 So just to land the main part of the conversation here, 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:39.236 you've been working with silk for almost twenty years. Like 0:20:39.276 --> 0:20:40.916 if you sort of zoom out and look at the 0:20:40.956 --> 0:20:45.396 big picture arc of your work, what do you come away. 0:20:45.196 --> 0:20:48.796 With there are two two main things. I think one 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:52.756 is a thing that comes from wonder and surprise. And 0:20:52.796 --> 0:20:56.236 I think that the more you look at things around 0:20:56.236 --> 0:20:59.996 you and you and you interpret and you're amazed by 0:21:00.036 --> 0:21:02.196 the things around you, the more you learn about them, 0:21:02.196 --> 0:21:05.156 the more you the more inspired you are, I would say. 0:21:05.516 --> 0:21:08.396