1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Today's show has some classic plain vanilla innovation, as 2 00:00:24,636 --> 00:00:27,596 Speaker 1: people playing with lasers and trying to make new kinds 3 00:00:27,596 --> 00:00:32,036 Speaker 1: of materials, people trying to improve vaccine delivery, people trying 4 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 1: to reduce food waste. But today's show also has some 5 00:00:35,916 --> 00:00:38,916 Speaker 1: kinds of innovation that we don't hear so much about, 6 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:43,996 Speaker 1: like thousands of years of selective breeding of caterpillars, also 7 00:00:44,596 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 1: millions of years of caterpillar evolution that have created this 8 00:00:48,476 --> 00:00:53,436 Speaker 1: amazing super thin, super strong fiber that the caterpillar spins 9 00:00:53,556 --> 00:00:58,036 Speaker 1: into a cocoon basically by doing three D printing, Which 10 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 1: does it even count as innovation if a caterpillar does it? 11 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: I'm going to go with yes. For the purposes of 12 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 1: this shoe, of this moment, I'm going to say yes. 13 00:01:13,316 --> 00:01:15,636 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem, the 14 00:01:15,636 --> 00:01:17,476 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 15 00:01:17,516 --> 00:01:21,956 Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Fiorenzo Omenetto. He's 16 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: a professor of biomedical engineering at Tufts University and he 17 00:01:25,716 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 1: studies silk. Fiorenzo's problem is this, how do you turn 18 00:01:29,636 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: a fabric people have been using for thousands of years 19 00:01:32,436 --> 00:01:38,636 Speaker 1: into useful cutting edge materials. Fiorenzo's background is in physics 20 00:01:38,756 --> 00:01:42,116 Speaker 1: and optics, but he runs what's known as the Silk Lab. 21 00:01:42,476 --> 00:01:46,036 Speaker 1: He and his colleagues take natural silk, isolate the key protein, 22 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:50,076 Speaker 1: and use it to create new useful stuff. Fiorenzo got 23 00:01:50,116 --> 00:01:53,076 Speaker 1: into silk one day about twenty years ago when he 24 00:01:53,156 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 1: ran into his colleague David Kaplan in the hall at work. 25 00:01:56,716 --> 00:01:59,396 Speaker 1: David handed him something that looked like a little piece 26 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 1: of plastic, but that turned out, of course to be silk. 27 00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:07,476 Speaker 2: So David is responsible for me, for me working with silk. 28 00:02:07,676 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 2: So my background is really technical, and I come from 29 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 2: material science laser physics, and with this background, I join 30 00:02:15,036 --> 00:02:18,036 Speaker 2: a biomedical engineering department, which is already sort of like 31 00:02:18,396 --> 00:02:19,276 Speaker 2: a leap of faith. 32 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: If you will, you're you're kind of a weirdo there, Yeah, 33 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: I suppose, I suppose let's just stay orthogonal. Yes, that's 34 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: a h I've been orthogonal in a lot of settings. 35 00:02:33,276 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 2: I suppose, right. 36 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 1: Orthogonal too, orthogonal to a lot of sex. 37 00:02:37,356 --> 00:02:42,836 Speaker 2: Sorry, yes, orthogonal too. Yes, And we had a conversation 38 00:02:42,916 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 2: in the hall. David's a tissue engineer, and and then 39 00:02:45,156 --> 00:02:49,876 Speaker 2: the premise of tisser engineering is finding biocompatible materials that 40 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 2: can enter the body and can serve as scaffolding for 41 00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:57,436 Speaker 2: cells to rebuild our tissues. So we're in the hallway 42 00:02:57,436 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 2: and he presents me with this like little piece of 43 00:03:00,476 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 2: classic that was supposed to be a tissue engineering scaffold 44 00:03:03,916 --> 00:03:07,716 Speaker 2: for a replacement CORNEA. Okay, but the cells weren't able 45 00:03:07,756 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 2: to grow inside of it, And so said, can you 46 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 2: can you maybe use your lasers to poke some holes 47 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 2: in it so that the cells can grow in and 48 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 2: then if they permeate this, then they can regrow the 49 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:19,676 Speaker 2: corn it. So I took this this piece of plastic, 50 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:21,356 Speaker 2: I took it to the lab and I put a 51 00:03:21,396 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 2: laser beam on it, and I lost the laser beam. 52 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 2: When I put the laser beam on this little piece 53 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:28,996 Speaker 2: of plastic, I couldn't see the spot and an and 54 00:03:29,036 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 2: to an optics geek like me, that means that the 55 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 2: surface is incredibly smooth. It means that there's no scattering 56 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:38,876 Speaker 2: and this and this surface is very beautiful from an 57 00:03:38,876 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 2: optical perspective. 58 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:42,036 Speaker 1: When you say you lost it, you mean it just 59 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: kind of disappeared on there, like you didn't see a 60 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 1: little red dot or whatever. 61 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 2: Is that? 62 00:03:46,036 --> 00:03:46,676 Speaker 1: What that means. 63 00:03:47,076 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 2: That is exactly what it means. And generally you see 64 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 2: the red dot when you have when you have some 65 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:54,476 Speaker 2: roughness that gives you the scattering and makes the spot visible. 66 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:56,316 Speaker 2: And so that one question led to the other, and 67 00:03:56,396 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 2: we started doing optics with it, and we started doing 68 00:03:59,036 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 2: like these holograms and materials out of what turned out 69 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:02,716 Speaker 2: to be silk. 70 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 1: Right, what what are your first ideas? So you realize, oh, 71 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:08,756 Speaker 1: this is silk, and weirdly it has this property of 72 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 1: being crazy smooth. What do you think about doing with it? 73 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 1: Once you realize that. 74 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 2: You basically have a construction material that starts from water 75 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:21,036 Speaker 2: in a protein that floats around, and then you can 76 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 2: turn it into multiple forms, so film, sponges, blocks, what 77 00:04:25,636 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 2: have you. You can print it, you can spray it, 78 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:33,396 Speaker 2: you can predprinted, painted, et cetera. And all of this 79 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 2: is in a format that is edible, implantable, and that, 80 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 2: as we discovered as we went along, that also stabilizes 81 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 2: biological activity and you know, acts as a preservative for 82 00:04:46,796 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 2: molecules that otherwise need to be refrigerated. Oh. Interest, So 83 00:04:49,556 --> 00:04:52,476 Speaker 2: this is where things diverged. 84 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of basically biological applications medical 85 00:04:56,276 --> 00:05:00,756 Speaker 1: and sort of medical adjacent applications because this benign, naturally 86 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:04,916 Speaker 1: occurring protein that is the essence of silk, has these 87 00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:06,196 Speaker 1: wonderful properties. 88 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:09,236 Speaker 2: That's right, That's right, And so we started doing we 89 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 2: started doing things for fun. I mean, we started looking 90 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:14,276 Speaker 2: at the optical properties. We started doing optical devices, and 91 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 2: we started doing imprinting, and we looked at where were 92 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 2: the limits of fabrication that we could push. 93 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: How much cool and useful stuff could you make with silk? 94 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 2: Basically, that's right. And there's also you know, the wow factor, 95 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:30,316 Speaker 2: because you know, it's a very different format than having 96 00:05:30,396 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 2: silk that looks like this. 97 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 1: Yes, now you're holding up a silk scarf. 98 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 2: Now I'm holding up a silk carf. Yes. 99 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:39,396 Speaker 1: So let's I want to get to a lot of 100 00:05:39,436 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 1: the applications that have come out of your work. But 101 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: before we do that, I just want to talk about 102 00:05:44,796 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: silk for a few minutes, because it's interesting and it's 103 00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:52,516 Speaker 1: sort of the core of why you've been working on 104 00:05:52,556 --> 00:05:56,276 Speaker 1: this for almost twenty years, right, So, like, why is 105 00:05:56,356 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 1: silk so amazing? 106 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 2: I wish I had like a like a one liner. 107 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:07,036 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. Let's just talk about silk tell 108 00:06:07,076 --> 00:06:07,796 Speaker 1: me about silk. 109 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 2: So silk, particularly textile silk, is one of the most 110 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 2: engineered natural materials that there is. Legend has it, you know, 111 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 2: it wasn't quite the apple that fell from the tree, 112 00:06:18,956 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 2: but it was the cocoon that fell from the tree 113 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 2: while a princess was drinking tea. Yes, and then this 114 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 2: lustrous fiber came off. 115 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 1: This is in China, more than a thousand years ago. 116 00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 1: I mean, we know there's the myth, but we know 117 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: that they've been making silk in China for more than 118 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 1: a thousand years certainly, right. 119 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 2: But most importantly, I think that the thing that is 120 00:06:38,996 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 2: unappreciated is that the bombax morey caterpillar has been domesticated 121 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 2: for all of this time, with all the while the 122 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:49,876 Speaker 2: intrigue of the you know, of my line of silkworms 123 00:06:49,956 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 2: produces a very fine silk. This other line of silkworms 124 00:06:53,916 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 2: doesn't do as well. And so the finest products that 125 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 2: you can get you get from a certain farm. This 126 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 2: was all the intrigue of optimizing, right. 127 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:07,356 Speaker 1: I mean, it's innovation, right, There are literally centuries of innovation, 128 00:07:07,436 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 1: and just to just to say for I think most 129 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:13,276 Speaker 1: people know, but like there's a particular worm. 130 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:13,516 Speaker 2: Right. 131 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 1: The silkworm is whatever the larval form of a particular moth, right, 132 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: if I'm getting that right. And it spins its cocoon 133 00:07:23,116 --> 00:07:26,636 Speaker 1: out of this material that is basically silk or was 134 00:07:26,676 --> 00:07:28,956 Speaker 1: what they used to make silk, right, And it only 135 00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:32,516 Speaker 1: eats the mulberry tree bark or something right right, prefers 136 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:33,956 Speaker 1: the mulberry tree bark. 137 00:07:34,356 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 2: A majestically picky eater. Yes, And it's remarkable and. 138 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: As I mean, as I understand it, the optimization it's 139 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 1: actually they have through you know, breeding basically over time, 140 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:51,076 Speaker 1: have made it so that the moths make more silkworms. 141 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 1: You get more silkworms, you get more silk, you know, 142 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 1: more quickly. Right, So it already comes to us as 143 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: this incredibly optimized thing. There's nature has done a tremendous 144 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:03,476 Speaker 1: amount of work, and then people in China for a 145 00:08:03,516 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 1: thousand years have done more. 146 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:07,876 Speaker 2: Right, that's right, And then it propagated all over the place. 147 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 2: And it's really very technical. And so this agricultural crop 148 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:14,756 Speaker 2: the kids textiles that are very prized for their luster, 149 00:08:14,916 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 2: for their look, for their thermal properties, for their durability, right. 150 00:08:19,796 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 1: Like great long underwear, right high right ers nice scar. 151 00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 2: Absolutely, there's like all sorts of all sorts of beautiful things. 152 00:08:27,836 --> 00:08:29,956 Speaker 2: But they come they come in this format. I mean, 153 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:32,076 Speaker 2: and I'm holding up a cocoon right now, they come 154 00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 2: in this format. 155 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: Is there? Is that a real cocoon? Or is that 156 00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 1: like a model? 157 00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 2: No? No, no, this is a real cocoon. 158 00:08:38,076 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: Wait, hold it up again. So it's let's talk about it. 159 00:08:41,716 --> 00:08:44,316 Speaker 2: Let me find here we go, let me find one. 160 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:46,876 Speaker 1: That is how many cocoons do you have on your desk? 161 00:08:47,036 --> 00:08:48,756 Speaker 1: You just put one down and picked up another one? 162 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:52,716 Speaker 2: We have We are full of cocoons. So you're holding it. 163 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:56,636 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about it. It's white, it's white, white, white, right, 164 00:08:56,676 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: it's snow white. It looks on the picture. 165 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 2: So it's a snow wide, giant giant, a giant bean. 166 00:09:06,116 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bigger than a bean. I'm trying to think, 167 00:09:07,876 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 1: what is that size? Like if you smushed a ping 168 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:13,356 Speaker 1: pong ball into an oblong shape, would it be about 169 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:13,956 Speaker 1: that size? 170 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 2: How about that size? 171 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 1: And you're holding it by a thread? Is that a 172 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:19,476 Speaker 1: little silken thread that you're holding up? I can't even 173 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 1: see it. It's invisible. 174 00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:23,676 Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out there you can kind of 175 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 2: see it now maybe. 176 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:26,836 Speaker 1: I mean it's cool that it's invisible. 177 00:09:27,956 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 2: It's magic. 178 00:09:28,676 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 1: It's like it's like a spider web, right, in fact, 179 00:09:30,796 --> 00:09:33,876 Speaker 1: spider webs. In fact, spider webs are quite similar. But 180 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: it's hard to read spiders, right, that's what I read. 181 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:41,476 Speaker 2: So spiders cannot be domesticated, but but caterpillars can. There 182 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:44,436 Speaker 2: are billions of these cocoons, Yeah, there are, there are. 183 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 2: There are a lot, a lot a lot of these cocoons. 184 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 2: But the remarkable thing is that each cocoon is an 185 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:52,476 Speaker 2: engineering wonder. Because if you take the cocoon and you 186 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:55,116 Speaker 2: unwind it, so you wash the glue away that the 187 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:58,236 Speaker 2: worms used to keep it together, or the caterpillars used 188 00:09:58,276 --> 00:10:01,116 Speaker 2: to keep this together, and you pull, you have almost 189 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,516 Speaker 2: one kilometer of an interrupted thread, so ten micron thread 190 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 2: that is composed by two silk fibers that are held together. 191 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 2: The ten microns means about it ten to the diameter 192 00:10:10,036 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 2: of your hair. Each fiber is composed by two individual 193 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 2: fibers that are held together by that glue that I 194 00:10:16,436 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 2: mentioned before. And because there are two spinning glands in 195 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,676 Speaker 2: the caterpillar and then and then all held together in 196 00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 2: this non woven format that is extremely resilient. It's something 197 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 2: that you just can't tear and this and think there's 198 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 2: no weave in here. It's just the worm that is 199 00:10:32,836 --> 00:10:35,316 Speaker 2: building up layer by layer by layer as it's building 200 00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 2: this cocoon. 201 00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:38,556 Speaker 1: It's like additive manufacturing. It's like three D printing. 202 00:10:38,956 --> 00:10:42,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is absolutely that this is a biological three 203 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 2: D printer. It's a filamentary three D printer that builds 204 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 2: a cocoon from the inside to I. 205 00:10:47,596 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, yeah, the caterpillars on the inside doing it. 206 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 1: So okay, So there's this incredible natural context to begin 207 00:10:56,356 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 1: with this incredible thing that the silkworm does. And then 208 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:02,116 Speaker 1: on top of that, we have the kind of innovation 209 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 1: and optimization of whatever one thousand plus years of farming 210 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 1: and you know, commercial and then you kind of walk 211 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 1: onto the stage and you realize, oh, this stuff is 212 00:11:14,796 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 1: really cool and you start playing with it. And let's 213 00:11:19,876 --> 00:11:22,836 Speaker 1: talk about some of the some of the things that 214 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,516 Speaker 1: have come out of it. Right, it's not purely academic work. 215 00:11:25,516 --> 00:11:27,036 Speaker 1: There have been commercial spin offs. 216 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: So the important qualities of the of the material fabrication 217 00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:34,996 Speaker 2: process that open up an endless kit of material wonder 218 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 2: are the fact, the end formats of material you can eat, 219 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:42,196 Speaker 2: you can implant in the body. You can mix things 220 00:11:42,236 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 2: into this glass of water and silk, mix things that 221 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: are delicate biologically, and you can preserve them, and then 222 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 2: you can control the degradation of the materials. You can 223 00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:55,516 Speaker 2: dip them in water and they dissolve immediately, or you 224 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:58,756 Speaker 2: can dip in water and they'll stay put for years. 225 00:11:58,156 --> 00:12:00,556 Speaker 1: Just depending on how you build it. 226 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 2: Essentially, how you put the proteins together. Imagine a bunch 227 00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:07,396 Speaker 2: of a bunch of little lego pieces that are floating around, 228 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 2: and depending on how hard you press it, the material 229 00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:12,196 Speaker 2: lasts more or less. And you can control, you know, 230 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 2: the sizes of the bricks that you put in the 231 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,316 Speaker 2: solution and how they're pressed together. And so to a 232 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 2: material scientist, having these functional aspects in the material just 233 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:24,596 Speaker 2: is mind blowing because you can start really imagining. What 234 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 2: if you look at all the materials that surround you 235 00:12:28,076 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 2: and you start saying, well, what if I could plant 236 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:33,196 Speaker 2: this in my garden, What if I could eat it? 237 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:36,196 Speaker 2: What if I could put biological communicators inside of what 238 00:12:36,236 --> 00:12:39,876 Speaker 2: if I could put chemistries inside here that are very 239 00:12:39,916 --> 00:12:43,556 Speaker 2: difficult to put in by other means, so then this 240 00:12:43,876 --> 00:12:46,516 Speaker 2: just opens up a world of craziness, and so. 241 00:12:48,036 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 1: Of the delightful craziness, right, good craziness. 242 00:12:51,516 --> 00:12:54,076 Speaker 2: I think the thing that I still find myself very 243 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:58,476 Speaker 2: surprised by is that after now nearly twenty years of 244 00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:01,276 Speaker 2: working with this material, I think, I think I'm still 245 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 2: as excited about the potential of this material as I 246 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 2: was on day one. 247 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: Still to come on the show. Using silk to find 248 00:13:11,196 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 1: a better way to deliver vaccines, and also using silk 249 00:13:14,956 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 1: to help preserve fruits and vegetables, also more things to 250 00:13:19,316 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: do with silk. What's something that is in the world 251 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:31,956 Speaker 1: based on your work. 252 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:35,396 Speaker 2: One of the companies that is called Vaccess is now 253 00:13:35,476 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 2: using silk based technology to do micro needle patches with 254 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:41,276 Speaker 2: therapy that doesn't need to be refrigerated. So I imagine 255 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:44,276 Speaker 2: just putting on a band aid rather than going took 256 00:13:44,316 --> 00:13:47,356 Speaker 2: place to get an injection and not having to worry 257 00:13:47,356 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 2: about storing your therapy in the fridge. 258 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: Particularly important in the developing world. Right we take the 259 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:55,276 Speaker 1: cold chain for granted here, and yes it's a hassle 260 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:56,916 Speaker 1: to go to the pharmacy and get a shot, but 261 00:13:57,076 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: like there are parts of the world where like, you know, 262 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: the vaccine has to be called from the time it's 263 00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:04,916 Speaker 1: made until it goes into your arm. Essentially, Yes, so 264 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: it has to be in a truck and a ship 265 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: and everywhere. It has to stay cold, and you have 266 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 1: to have power, and there are big parts of the 267 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:13,276 Speaker 1: world where that just doesn't exist, right, So it actually 268 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:16,236 Speaker 1: is a real problem on a global scale. 269 00:14:16,596 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 2: I would argue also that it potentially could become even 270 00:14:19,276 --> 00:14:22,676 Speaker 2: more profitable. I believe that there's a lot of opportunities 271 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 2: still out there for these classes of material to be 272 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 2: to generate an incredible amount of revenue. 273 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:29,836 Speaker 1: I mean, do you mean just because it's cheaper, because 274 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: if you don't have to keep it cold, it's more efficient, 275 00:14:31,956 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 1: or like what makes you think of or just because 276 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:36,516 Speaker 1: people prefer what makes like I'm interested? I just what 277 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: makes you think of that? Here in the conversation. 278 00:14:39,436 --> 00:14:42,436 Speaker 2: I think that the functional surprise is what makes this 279 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 2: an appealing product, and it makes it economically viable. I 280 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:49,036 Speaker 2: think that having trying to substitute materials one for one 281 00:14:49,476 --> 00:14:53,796 Speaker 2: is very difficult given the sophistication of what we have today. 282 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:56,156 Speaker 2: But I think that if your material manages to do 283 00:14:56,236 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 2: something unexpected that brings more value to a. 284 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 1: Person saying it's not just not the cold chain, it's 285 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:03,276 Speaker 1: you don't have to get a shot, you just put 286 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:04,636 Speaker 1: this sticker on your arm. 287 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:07,356 Speaker 2: It's a collection of things. And so the jury is 288 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 2: out of whether this is true or not. I think 289 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 2: the opportunity is big, but I see also that it 290 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,796 Speaker 2: requires an enormous amount of dedication and it requires entrepreneurship. 291 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: And that that side of it is clearly not not 292 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:20,836 Speaker 1: your side. It seems as you're talking about. 293 00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 2: It, Well, it can't be. 294 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 1: There are there are professors who also start companies. 295 00:15:25,516 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 2: Yes, but I think that I'm a big believer of 296 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 2: the fact that you have to dedicate your full attention 297 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 2: to something to bring it at ats maximum levels. 298 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: So there's there's another thing that that people are developing 299 00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:40,356 Speaker 1: based on on the work on your work and your 300 00:15:40,356 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: colleagues work for for for vocal vocal cord, right what 301 00:15:45,156 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 1: they call it vocal folds, but it's basically vocal cords. 302 00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 303 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 2: So for example, one of the one of the examples 304 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:54,476 Speaker 2: is that in certain cases, when you lose mechanical properties 305 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:57,436 Speaker 2: in your vocal fold, your your vocal cords are not 306 00:15:57,516 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 2: able to vibrate anymore and you and you lose your 307 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:03,756 Speaker 2: capacity to speak. And so one of the one of 308 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,276 Speaker 2: the strategies would be to restore the strength of the 309 00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 2: vocal fold so that you give mechanical ford it to 310 00:16:09,276 --> 00:16:12,676 Speaker 2: to that. So we studied this formulation where imagine that 311 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:16,756 Speaker 2: you have a dense injectable jello that comes and stays 312 00:16:16,916 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 2: and stays put in some place and mixes with your 313 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 2: native tissue and makes it more fur I see. 314 00:16:23,036 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 1: Okay. 315 00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 2: So one of the companies that took the gel technology 316 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 2: out studied this and they came up with an injectable 317 00:16:29,236 --> 00:16:33,716 Speaker 2: format that restores the mechanical properties of the fold and 318 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:36,756 Speaker 2: actually gives the capacity to the patients to speak. Again. 319 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 2: This is an FDA approved therapy, so it works. So 320 00:16:40,876 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 2: it worked. So this is something that you can get today. 321 00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 1: Food preservation, somebody's working on using some silk based technology 322 00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 1: to make fresh food stay good longer. Tell me about that. 323 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 2: So it turns out that the silk liquid is very 324 00:16:56,756 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 2: good at coating objects. And if you take, for example, 325 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:02,676 Speaker 2: of strawberry and you dip it in water and silk 326 00:17:03,076 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 2: so coats the strawberry with a thin layer of material 327 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 2: that acts as a fruit preservative. And it's very effective 328 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 2: to prolong the shelf life at room temperature of materials 329 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 2: by a week or a couple of weeks. And then 330 00:17:15,676 --> 00:17:17,636 Speaker 2: I guess it depends on what you use it on, 331 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:21,276 Speaker 2: and every food as its own story. At the time, 332 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 2: we in the lab, we tried it on bananas and 333 00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 2: on strawberries, and we saw that at room temperature we 334 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 2: could keep bananas and strawberries fresh for a extra week, 335 00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:32,356 Speaker 2: ten days or something like that. 336 00:17:32,836 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 1: And so where is that sort of product in the 337 00:17:35,876 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: arc of commercialization, this silk based fruit, you know, preservative. 338 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 2: Honestly, I think that this is a question for the 339 00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:47,716 Speaker 2: company itself, but I know that some product has been 340 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 2: successfully applied to leafy greens, and I think that the 341 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 2: that the use case there is the ability to enhance logistics, give. 342 00:17:55,236 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 1: You more time to get the greens from the farm 343 00:17:58,076 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: to the table. 344 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 2: Exactly, from from point A to point B and without refrigeration, 345 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:03,436 Speaker 2: which is a big deal. 346 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me what you're working on. 347 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:08,636 Speaker 2: Now. What are we working on now? We're working on 348 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:12,316 Speaker 2: sense a lot. We have friends that design proteins that 349 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 2: are very very sensitive and very very specific. So there 350 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:19,996 Speaker 2: are possibilities of giving formats to say, things for example, 351 00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 2: that detect hormones. So one of the things that we 352 00:18:23,156 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 2: did recently was to make an ink with a design 353 00:18:26,516 --> 00:18:29,956 Speaker 2: or a protein if you will, that was very sensitive 354 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:32,556 Speaker 2: and very specific to human estrogen receptor two, which is 355 00:18:32,596 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 2: one of the one of the hormones that is responsible 356 00:18:35,316 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 2: for breast cancer. So you start imagining things like painting 357 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 2: and the inside of a bra so that you have 358 00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 2: a monitor of recurrence for example, of or you have 359 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:48,476 Speaker 2: a monitor for breast cancer. We did the same thing 360 00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 2: with toxins like bochulin and hepatitis beat, and so all 361 00:18:52,836 --> 00:18:55,596 Speaker 2: of these things become very powerful when you have them 362 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 2: in these different formats that are very unexpected. 363 00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 1: So the core thing you have ultimately with the silk 364 00:19:02,716 --> 00:19:08,916 Speaker 1: is this benign stabilizing force, Right, That's the thing you're 365 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:11,916 Speaker 1: flying in all these different detection settings. Is that, right, 366 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 1: a way to take whatever essentially detectors, these protein detectors 367 00:19:18,996 --> 00:19:24,596 Speaker 1: that might whatever decompose in other settings. You're stabilizing them 368 00:19:24,636 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 1: in a very kind of safe, benign way. That seems 369 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:28,916 Speaker 1: like the core thing that is happening in all these 370 00:19:28,916 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: different use cases you're describing is that, right, That is true. 371 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:34,396 Speaker 2: But the other thing that is very important is that 372 00:19:34,996 --> 00:19:37,836 Speaker 2: you stabilize these and that's the functional part, but then 373 00:19:37,876 --> 00:19:41,196 Speaker 2: you shape it, and the shapes are very very technological. 374 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:43,116 Speaker 2: So the other thing that we're working on that is 375 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 2: very exciting is how to control silk and the nanoscale 376 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:49,116 Speaker 2: and actually have these things very precisely localized, and that 377 00:19:49,156 --> 00:19:52,956 Speaker 2: can lead to really nice, nice interfaces with for example, 378 00:19:52,956 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 2: with semiconductors. 379 00:19:54,516 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 1: Say a little more about that one. 380 00:19:57,316 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 2: So we had we had a recent paper where we 381 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 2: showed it in a transistor. We can put a thin 382 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 2: layer of silk within the transistor and we can use 383 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 2: the state of silk to change the way that the 384 00:20:08,476 --> 00:20:09,756 Speaker 2: transistors switches. 385 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 1: Huh, switches, which is the fundamental thing a transistor does, 386 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 1: goes from on off. 387 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:18,276 Speaker 2: Basically, that's right. So so if you can, if you 388 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:21,836 Speaker 2: could imagine this multiplied by a Tralian transistors, Yeah, it 389 00:20:21,876 --> 00:20:25,036 Speaker 2: would be a very powerful way to sense things, for example, 390 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:29,196 Speaker 2: or to silk or channelized things. Yeah, why not. 391 00:20:31,596 --> 00:20:35,516 Speaker 1: So just to land the main part of the conversation here, 392 00:20:35,556 --> 00:20:39,236 Speaker 1: you've been working with silk for almost twenty years. Like 393 00:20:39,276 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: if you sort of zoom out and look at the 394 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:45,396 Speaker 1: big picture arc of your work, what do you come away. 395 00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:48,796 Speaker 2: With there are two two main things. I think one 396 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 2: is a thing that comes from wonder and surprise. And 397 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 2: I think that the more you look at things around 398 00:20:56,236 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 2: you and you and you interpret and you're amazed by 399 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 2: the things around you, the more you learn about them, 400 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 2: the more you the more inspired you are, I would say. 401 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 2: And then the other thing that I would say is 402 00:21:08,436 --> 00:21:15,236 Speaker 2: that natural systems, natural materials have an unbelievable degree of sophistication, 403 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:19,076 Speaker 2: of hierarchical sophistication. And by that I mean they are 404 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 2: so exquisitely engineered at all scales to provide very simultaneous 405 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:29,396 Speaker 2: functions that are technologically incredibly relevant, you know. So like 406 00:21:29,716 --> 00:21:32,476 Speaker 2: the way that they manage energy, the way that they 407 00:21:32,556 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 2: repel infection, the way that they are super hydrophobic, the 408 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:40,596 Speaker 2: way that they're resilient, way by being ultra light, their 409 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 2: ability to keep warm and to keep cold depending on 410 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:47,596 Speaker 2: the need. It's just it's just an endless the way 411 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,236 Speaker 2: that they self heal, it's like an endless stream of 412 00:21:50,276 --> 00:21:54,476 Speaker 2: things that is incredible. Nature has a lot of ideas 413 00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:56,876 Speaker 2: to do really smart things, to do really meaningful things, 414 00:21:57,276 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 2: to do profound things, and to do very profitable things. 415 00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:05,356 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the light ground. 416 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:17,876 Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. What's one thing about 417 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 1: lasers that you wish more people understood. 418 00:22:21,556 --> 00:22:23,556 Speaker 2: How profoundly different they are from a light bulb? 419 00:22:24,116 --> 00:22:28,276 Speaker 1: Huh, just tay a little more. I feel like I 420 00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 1: should know that better. Tell me. 421 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:32,476 Speaker 2: Lasers are light and we kind of take for granted 422 00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 2: that this light travels in a travels in the line 423 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:37,396 Speaker 2: and gives you a spot. And they're the same. It's 424 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:39,156 Speaker 2: the same light that you get from a light bulb, 425 00:22:39,156 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 2: except for the light from the light bulb goes all 426 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:43,316 Speaker 2: over the place where the laser is directional. And that 427 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 2: fact that the laser is directional is is amazing material 428 00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 2: magic why it gives it order. So it's very very 429 00:22:56,436 --> 00:22:59,316 Speaker 2: ordered light. You take something that is chaotic and you 430 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:03,116 Speaker 2: make it keep step with time and with space. Wow. 431 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:06,316 Speaker 2: And it's very important because it's at the basis of 432 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:08,516 Speaker 2: a lot of things, including self driving cars that don't 433 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:11,316 Speaker 2: smash it two into one another, for example, in some 434 00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:12,636 Speaker 2: in some cases. 435 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:15,156 Speaker 1: What's your favorite use of a laser in fiction, in 436 00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:16,076 Speaker 1: a movie, in a book. 437 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:22,796 Speaker 2: Oh, obviously laser being on sharks, Austin power. It's I mean, 438 00:23:22,836 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 2: it's er evils, it is doctor Good. 439 00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 1: So, as I understand that you were an Oppenheimer fellow 440 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 1: at Los Alamos, I was, what do you think of 441 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:34,396 Speaker 1: the movie Oppenheimer? 442 00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:38,636 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, how much time do we have? This is 443 00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 2: not a lightning question. It was it was if I 444 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 2: liked it. 445 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:46,636 Speaker 1: It's complicated when you were at Less almost twenty years ago, 446 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:50,596 Speaker 1: like the get you catch any Manhattan Project vibes? Or 447 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:51,716 Speaker 1: was it just kind of a relic? 448 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,556 Speaker 2: No. I think that it's very present, that the history 449 00:23:55,636 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 2: is palpable in in the lab. And I think that 450 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:00,836 Speaker 2: one of one of the best things is to go 451 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 2: to the museum and see their guest books and see 452 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 2: and see what people write on the guest book after 453 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,996 Speaker 2: they've gone through the whole story of the Manhattan Project, 454 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:13,276 Speaker 2: and it's very The range of comments is astounding. It's 455 00:24:13,316 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 2: from you know, international Atomic Agency officers to senators, to 456 00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 2: a high school football team to Japanese visitors, you know, 457 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,596 Speaker 2: and and it was at least very much in the 458 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 2: culture of the lab. And I think that there's a 459 00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:29,956 Speaker 2: I can't see how how it wouldn't be. 460 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, true that you wrote a vespa. True, you still 461 00:24:36,116 --> 00:24:38,276 Speaker 1: write a vespa not often. 462 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 2: I do my own one, but it's gathering a lot 463 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:41,196 Speaker 2: of dust. 464 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 1: You think vespas are overrated or underrated? 465 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 2: Ah, that's that's I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. I'm 466 00:24:48,316 --> 00:24:50,236 Speaker 2: not gonna even comment on that. I think they I 467 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 2: think I think they look great. 468 00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 1: You runzo Omenetto runs the Silk Lab at Tufts University. 469 00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:06,676 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Cheng. It was 470 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy jeene Kott and engine heared by Sarah Bruguer. 471 00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:14,556 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. 472 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:16,916 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Bothstein, and we'll be back next week with 473 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.