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Speaker 1: I'm general you've generally been a fan of the Pulitzer

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Speaker 1: Prizes throughout my life, but over time they have gotten

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Speaker 1: more political. I mean, you can go way back in

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Speaker 1: the day for Politzer Prizes and they would give awards

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Speaker 1: to um all kinds of different authors and and and

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Speaker 1: writings and this and that. But they have they, like

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Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize, similar to a lot of other awards,

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Speaker 1: have gone way, way way trying to send a message.

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Speaker 1: And nice week they announced the Politzer Prize for the

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Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen Project. That was that thing they did in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times where they made the argument that

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Speaker 1: the United States is founded on slavery and we're shot

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Speaker 1: through and through with racism from the very founding right,

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Speaker 1: and that's the great animating force in American history. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Tim Sander for Tim the Lawyer, a long time fan

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Speaker 1: favorite and host favorite here on The Armstrong and Getty Show,

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Speaker 1: joins us to discuss the the sixteen nineteen Project and

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Speaker 1: its flaws and the silliness of the Pulitzer Prize. Tim

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Speaker 1: is the vice president for Litigation for the Goldwater Institute. Hey, Tim,

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Speaker 1: how are you, sir? I'm great. How are you guys

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Speaker 1: doing good? Jack seems particularly concerned about the state of

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Speaker 1: your beard. How is it it's untrimmed. I'm I'm afraid

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Speaker 1: to say I've taken the excuse of not going to

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Speaker 1: the office to start becoming a mountain man. So Tim,

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Speaker 1: Tim the lawyer and your beard joins us today. It's

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Speaker 1: fantastic to have you both with us. Um, before we

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Speaker 1: get into this, what is the quote you hit me

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Speaker 1: with the other day when we are texting about institutions

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Speaker 1: and how they move leftward over time, because that's clearly

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Speaker 1: happened with the Politzer Prize. Oh, it certainly has. The

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Speaker 1: famous Soviet expert Robert Conquest said that any organization that

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Speaker 1: is not exclusively right wing will become left wing over time.

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Speaker 1: Is there a reason why that's then that seems to happen.

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Speaker 1: Is there a reason why that happens. I've got a

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Speaker 1: couple of theories. One of them is I think that

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Speaker 1: left wing folks just really like the idea of bureaucracy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it really appeals to them, and so they tend to

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Speaker 1: be attracted toward a bureaucracy, whereas people who are more

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Speaker 1: oriented toward economic productivity, they tend to to try and

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Speaker 1: weed out inefficiencies, and they don't like bureaucracy very much,

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Speaker 1: and so any kind of an organization I think gradually

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Speaker 1: tends to attract the kind of personalities that don't produce

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Speaker 1: a lot but really like to sit around and have meetings.

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Speaker 1: And that that's a pretty good theory right there. All right. Yeah, Obviously,

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Speaker 1: by the nature of people who like or dislike bureaucracies

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Speaker 1: and like or dislike being in them, it's going to

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Speaker 1: go further and further left. And I get that. But

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Speaker 1: so could you restate, like we're in a debate a

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Speaker 1: state your opponents, you know, argument for them, what was

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Speaker 1: the thesis of the sixteen nineteen project before you start

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Speaker 1: to tear it apart. Yeah, Well, there's a number of them,

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Speaker 1: because the sixty nineteen project consists of a large number

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Speaker 1: of articles by different writers. But the the overall point

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Speaker 1: of view is to try and say that America was

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Speaker 1: deep is essentially founded on slavery and anti black racism,

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Speaker 1: specifically anti black racism. That the articles don't really talk

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Speaker 1: anything at all really about other forms of racism, such

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Speaker 1: as the anti Chinese racism in California the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: which really needs to be talked about so it's kind

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Speaker 1: of shocking the blinders in that respect. But it consisted

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Speaker 1: of a number of articles, some of which make, you know,

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Speaker 1: very good valid points about how black history unfortunately is

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Speaker 1: really not very well known to a lot of white Americans,

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Speaker 1: that the the influence that it's had on American democracy

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Speaker 1: has sometimes been ignored by historians over time, things like

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Speaker 1: really valuable points that they make. Unfortunately, the articles also

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Speaker 1: make the really ludicrous and completely false claim that America

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Speaker 1: is fundamentally premised on slavery, that the Constitution was written

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Speaker 1: to protect slavery, and it ignores things like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the countless white abolitionists or black abolitionists who believed that

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Speaker 1: the Constitution was an anti slavery document even before the

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Speaker 1: Civil War, and and those kinds of ideological blind spots

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Speaker 1: are a real problem. But to me, what I think

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Speaker 1: is really most objectionable has been how the authors have

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Speaker 1: dealt with criticism that came out after it was published.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of historians who have criticized the

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Speaker 1: project and pointed out its laws, and rather than addressed

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Speaker 1: those head on. Nicole Hannah Jones, who won the prize

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Speaker 1: this week, her her response has been ravenant to engage them,

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Speaker 1: just simply to say, well, the only reason you're criticizing

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Speaker 1: means because you're white, or the only reason you're criticizing

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Speaker 1: me is because I'm black, and refused to address the

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Speaker 1: salient points and arguments that historians have made against her

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Speaker 1: position that, to my mind, should have been a veto

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Speaker 1: on on the idea of giving her any kind of

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Speaker 1: an award. That is so of the modern school of

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Speaker 1: of thought or non thought, where identity is a proof

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Speaker 1: of of opinion as opposed to you know, rigorous examin nation.

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Speaker 1: She is saying exactly what the Academy would have her say, Tim,

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Speaker 1: this is my truth. How dare you? Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. It's been It's her behavior has really

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Speaker 1: been quite disgraceful. There's there are some really good arguments

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Speaker 1: that have been made against the project. Particularly one I

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Speaker 1: would recommend to people are interested in this is a

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Speaker 1: guy named Phil Magnus m A. G. N. E. S. S.

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Speaker 1: He He just published a book of his critiques of

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Speaker 1: the sixty nineteen project that are really quite solid. But

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Speaker 1: um Nicolehan and Jones has refused to address the points

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Speaker 1: that Magnus has made has simply said, well, the only

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Speaker 1: reason you're saying this is because you're white and and so,

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Speaker 1: even though most of the authors who participated in the

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Speaker 1: sixty nine project are themselves wife. Uh, it's really a

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Speaker 1: shame that the Pilzer Prizes, which once you really had credibility,

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Speaker 1: have instead of decided to become so ideological as to

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Speaker 1: give an award to somebody who who really does not

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Speaker 1: comply with the rules that have been established for coming

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Speaker 1: up with the truth, you know, fair and open argument

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Speaker 1: that addresses the merit. I have what I think is

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Speaker 1: a well founded fear that the nineteen project is going

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Speaker 1: to find its way into my kids schooling at some level. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's already happening in some places in New York. There

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Speaker 1: have been some schools that have adopted the sixteen nineteen

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Speaker 1: project as part of the school curriculum. And what that

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Speaker 1: means is that students are being taught that America as

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Speaker 1: an idea is essentially against black people. Now, if you're

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Speaker 1: a black student, you can imagine if if you were

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Speaker 1: a black student, what you would think if that's the

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Speaker 1: message you're being taught in the classroom. But if you're

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Speaker 1: a white student, also imagine what that Imagine how that

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Speaker 1: affects your image of what America is or should be.

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Speaker 1: And this is not something that can be laughed at

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Speaker 1: or scorned. Quite the contrary, that people's idea of what

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Speaker 1: America is all about has been one of the most

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Speaker 1: important motivating factors in these countries progress throughout its history,

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Speaker 1: and the idea that American ideals are rooted in equality

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Speaker 1: and liberty is you know, that's one reason why Martin

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Speaker 1: Luther King succeeded so well at his project was because

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Speaker 1: he appealed to those values. But now you've come along

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Speaker 1: with something that is essentially this nihilistic stew of hatred

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Speaker 1: for the principles on which this country was based, or

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Speaker 1: rather just a shrug at them to say that, don't know,

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Speaker 1: when the founding fathers said on that are created equal,

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Speaker 1: they didn't really mean it with no evidence to support

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Speaker 1: that argument, really, uh, when in fact there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary. Of course, absolutely, and and it

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Speaker 1: just I think it's a real threat to the long

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Speaker 1: term prospects of this country if that's the view people

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Speaker 1: take of what our institutions are about. I have absolutely

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Speaker 1: no objection. I don't think anybody has an objection to

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Speaker 1: talking about black history, about the evils of slavery, about

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Speaker 1: the showdowns over its legacy that we had in the sixties.

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Speaker 1: All those certain things are important lessons in every you're

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Speaker 1: is interested in hearing about. But the sixty non Print

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Speaker 1: Team project goes too far and and takes it takes

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Speaker 1: a different direction when it says no, no, America was

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Speaker 1: always about hating black people. That's that's just yeah. Tim

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Speaker 1: and I were conversing the other day about how great

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Speaker 1: it is that the reconstruction era, or the the era

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Speaker 1: between the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement, which

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Speaker 1: is just kind of been left out of my my

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Speaker 1: entire um, uh all my schooling. You you left from

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Speaker 1: the Civil War to the Civil Rights and not the

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Speaker 1: hundred years in between that were so awful for so

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Speaker 1: many black people in America. It's great that that is

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Speaker 1: like become a hot property for people to write about

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Speaker 1: and talk about. I'm all for that. But as you

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Speaker 1: were just saying, Tim, this if we if the next

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Speaker 1: generation decides either we are a racist country or or

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Speaker 1: or a bad country, and clearly the next century is

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Speaker 1: going to be a battle between the United States and China,

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Speaker 1: for the soul of the world. It would really be

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Speaker 1: a tragedy to have the country currently has millions of

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Speaker 1: slaves and is actually racist end up winning the ideological

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Speaker 1: war because we feel so bad about ourselves that and

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Speaker 1: the ideological war is exactly the term for it, because

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Speaker 1: what one reason that motivates the Nicole Jones and the

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Speaker 1: other sixteen nineteen authors is an attempt to try and

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Speaker 1: portray capitalism as inherently allied with slavery, as being basically

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Speaker 1: made out of the same mold, which is absurd. I mean, historically,

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Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. It's exactly the opposite of that. In fact,

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Speaker 1: pro slavery thinking in the nineteenth century is the source

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Speaker 1: of anti capitalists thinking today. That's if you read the

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Speaker 1: writings of the defenders of slavery in the eighteen fifties

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Speaker 1: and eighteen sixties, they were making the same arguments against

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Speaker 1: capitalism that are being made by capitalists, by the enemies

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Speaker 1: of capitalism today, That is that it was rooted in grade,

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Speaker 1: that uh an alienation and filthy lucre, and that what

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Speaker 1: we needed instead was a social system that would take

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Speaker 1: care of everybody and protect everybody. And you know who

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Speaker 1: needs freedom after all, what we need is is hierarchy

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Speaker 1: and control and safety. And that that was the pro

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Speaker 1: slavery argument now, just like it's the anti capitalist argument today.

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Speaker 1: So in order to obscure that fact and to try

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Speaker 1: and make the opposite argument and to try to portray

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Speaker 1: capitalism is bad, the ideological left has tried to smear

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Speaker 1: it with capitalism. And that is one of the things

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Speaker 1: that they're I'm sorry, smear capitalism with slavery. And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that the sixteen nineteen project has

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Speaker 1: has really aimed at, and that that's really a shame.

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Speaker 1: It deserves criticism, and those critiques should be fairly addressed

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Speaker 1: rather than just shrugged off in the way that these

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Speaker 1: authors have done. You know, it's interesting even the New

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Speaker 1: York Times itself has backed away from the claims of

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Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen project. I don't know if you remember this,

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Speaker 1: but a couple of months ago the New York Times

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Speaker 1: actually added an addendum to these articles that retreated from

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Speaker 1: its language. That means, if this must be the first

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Speaker 1: time the Pulitzer Prize has ever been awarded to an

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Speaker 1: article that has been one since or another been retracted

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Speaker 1: by the newspaper before the award was given. Quite astonished. Wow, hey,

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Speaker 1: and the time we have left. Tim Tim Sanderford from

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Speaker 1: the Goldwater Institute is on the line, Um is there

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Speaker 1: a specific historical um uh twist in the sixteen nineteen

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Speaker 1: Project you'd like to untwist whether it be that the

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Speaker 1: primary motivation of having the Revolution was to preserve slavery

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Speaker 1: or some of the ridiculous stuff that's said about Lincoln

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Speaker 1: his relationship with say Frederick Douglas, anything in particular and

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Speaker 1: got your your your neckers in a twist. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: Douglas is basically ignored by the six nineteen Project articles. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know. To me, the number one issue, the central

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Speaker 1: point is the claim that the Constitution was a pro

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Speaker 1: slavery document, and that is a historical falsehood that ignores

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Speaker 1: people like Douglas who argued to the opposite. No, the

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Speaker 1: Constitution is a freedom document. The Constitution doesn't even use

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Speaker 1: the word slave or slavery in it. And to argue

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Speaker 1: that it was a pro slavery document is to agree

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Speaker 1: with Judge Tawny in the infamous dread Scott opinion. That's

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Speaker 1: what dread Scott says. It says the Constitution is a

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Speaker 1: pro slavery document. If you agree with the sixteen nineteen

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Speaker 1: Project perspective that the Constitution is pro slavery, then you

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Speaker 1: are saying that Tawny was correct in dread Scott to

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Speaker 1: say that the Constitution does not acknowledge black people as

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Speaker 1: human beings with natural rights, and that is completely incorrect.

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Speaker 1: That's completely false. Douglas and other anti slavery advocates said, No,

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Speaker 1: the Constitution is a pro freedom document that is in

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Speaker 1: its philosophical lessons to an anti slavery and that gave

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Speaker 1: the federal government power to restrict or eliminate slavery if

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Speaker 1: politicians had the guts to do that, and of course,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately it took until the sixties before politicians did have

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Speaker 1: the guts to take a step. So to me that

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Speaker 1: that's really the essential error in the In the articles now,

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Speaker 1: Phil Magnus in his book he gets into some of

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Speaker 1: the other critiques, but in the articles that I've written

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Speaker 1: on the side, I've tried to emphasize that this Constitution

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Speaker 1: was not a pro slavery dogument was written by people

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Speaker 1: who knew slavery was evil, and they just thought that

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Speaker 1: it would go away. They thought people would come to

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Speaker 1: their senses and that economics would render slavery unnecessary. Unfortunately

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Speaker 1: they were wrong, which is why we saw we had

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Speaker 1: a showdown in the eighteen sixties about Tim sanderfer Uh, Tim,

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Speaker 1: it's always a pleasure and enlightening. We thank you for

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Speaker 1: speaking your truth. Boy. I hate that that phrase and

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Speaker 1: in your period it sounds so stupid. How do people

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Speaker 1: stand to talk in that s j W jargon? I

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Speaker 1: just don't get. Well. You have to be surrounded by

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Speaker 1: your fellow your co religionists, people who are spouting the

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Speaker 1: same nonsense. Otherwise it sounds like nonsense. It's a cult, right,

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Speaker 1: it really is. It really is a religious cult. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly right. Tim Sander for the vice president for Litigation

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Speaker 1: for the Goldwater Institute. Tim best to the lovely Mrs

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Speaker 1: Sander for And we will talk soon, all right. And

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Speaker 1: we absolutely have to have Tim on again because he's

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Speaker 1: one of the great libertarian thinkers and writers in America, honestly,

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Speaker 1: and to not talk about the government's role in closing

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Speaker 1: down all these businesses and everything like that during this time,

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Speaker 1: because it's an eratraordinary. We got talked to him about

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Speaker 1: that sometime here here than you