1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers, it's Maya. I've got a special 2 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 1: episode for you. In honor of World Happiness Day. I 3 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:40,316 Speaker 1: chat with doctor Laurie Santos, host of another Pushkin podcast, 4 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab. She's also a friend and mentor of mine. 5 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:48,116 Speaker 1: This conversation is a kind of greatest Hits mixtape of 6 00:00:48,156 --> 00:00:50,916 Speaker 1: the best tips and strategies for leading a happier life. 7 00:00:51,676 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: And now that's what I call happiness Volume one situation. Sorry, 8 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 1: I just really love nineties callbacks. Anyway, I hope you 9 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: enjoy it, and I would love to hear from you 10 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:06,596 Speaker 1: about the things you try out. Hi, Laurie, Hello A Maya. 11 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:08,916 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on a slight change of 12 00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:11,956 Speaker 1: plans in honor of World Happiness Day. 13 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 2: I love it. Thanks so much for having me on 14 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:13,556 Speaker 2: the show. 15 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:16,876 Speaker 1: So I alluded to this, but it's worth sharing with 16 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,796 Speaker 1: folks that I've actually known you since I was seventeen 17 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:22,636 Speaker 1: years old. I was a student of. 18 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:23,916 Speaker 2: Yours alost eight years. 19 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 1: No, I know, it feels like it's been so much longer. 20 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:31,116 Speaker 1: I was a freshman in your monkey Lab class and 21 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:34,716 Speaker 1: you ended up being my academic advisor for all four years, 22 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:39,636 Speaker 1: and at the time your research lab was focused on cognition, right, 23 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: differences between monkeys and humans, And I would never have 24 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: known at the time that at some point you would 25 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: pivot and start focusing on happiness research. So can you 26 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:51,036 Speaker 1: share what led to that shift? 27 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:53,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just so so much of a surprise 28 00:01:53,116 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 2: for me too, interestingly, but yeah, no, So, I mean 29 00:01:56,596 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 2: I was doing all this work on kind of comparative 30 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 2: cognition and studying monkeys, you know, happily doing that work, 31 00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 2: and then I took on a new role at Yale, 32 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:06,316 Speaker 2: I becoming what's called the head of college. And so 33 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:08,916 Speaker 2: I know you know this, but for your listeners, Yell's 34 00:02:08,916 --> 00:02:11,836 Speaker 2: one of these weird schools like Hogwarts and Harry Potter, 35 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 2: where there's like colleges within a college. There's like Gryffindor 36 00:02:14,556 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 2: and Slytherin kind of thing. Yale has these too. I 37 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:19,796 Speaker 2: was head of what's called Silliman College, and that meant 38 00:02:19,796 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 2: that I, as a faculty member, lived on campus with students. 39 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:24,316 Speaker 2: So I hang out with them in the dining hall 40 00:02:24,356 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 2: and I just you know, saw them in the coffee shop. 41 00:02:26,236 --> 00:02:28,796 Speaker 2: I was like really much closer to student life than 42 00:02:28,796 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 2: I was, even you know, running my lab where I 43 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 2: got to know students really well, and honestly, I just 44 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:34,676 Speaker 2: didn't like what I was seeing. I was seeing the 45 00:02:34,676 --> 00:02:37,516 Speaker 2: college student mental health crisis up close and personnel, where 46 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:39,916 Speaker 2: just in my community we had so many students who 47 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:44,636 Speaker 2: were self reporting experiencing like extreme anxiety or suicidality or 48 00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:47,396 Speaker 2: panic attacks. It was just like on the ground, just 49 00:02:47,436 --> 00:02:49,996 Speaker 2: so sad and scary that these students' lives were just 50 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 2: like riddled with these mental health issues. And this is 51 00:02:52,876 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 2: not just what's going on at Yale or any other 52 00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 2: IVY League campus. This is what's happening nationally right now, 53 00:02:57,836 --> 00:03:00,836 Speaker 2: where nationally over sixty five percent of college students report 54 00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:04,476 Speaker 2: being more anxious and overwhelmingly anxious, such that they can't 55 00:03:04,476 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 2: get any work done. Like the stats are just like 56 00:03:06,956 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 2: staggering when you look at them. That was when I 57 00:03:09,716 --> 00:03:12,596 Speaker 2: made this pivot to studying happiness. I was like, I 58 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:15,076 Speaker 2: need to figure out ways that I can help my students, 59 00:03:15,156 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 2: right Like my job as a professor means I need 60 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:19,036 Speaker 2: to take care of the mental health of these students 61 00:03:19,076 --> 00:03:21,076 Speaker 2: that are around me. And one way I can do 62 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 2: that is to try to figure out, like what are 63 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 2: strategies that we know from science that students can use 64 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:28,116 Speaker 2: to feel happier. And so I made this whole new class, 65 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:30,916 Speaker 2: Psychology and the Good Life that I thought, would you know, 66 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 2: be just like a normal class on Yelle's campus. But 67 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 2: in the end it kind of went a little bit viral. 68 00:03:36,676 --> 00:03:39,516 Speaker 2: Over twelve hundred students showed up on the first day 69 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 2: of class to be part of this new class that 70 00:03:42,116 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 2: we were teaching, and I think it showed that, like 71 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 2: young people today are voting with their feet, like they 72 00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:48,276 Speaker 2: don't like this culture of feeling stressed out and anxious, 73 00:03:48,316 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 2: and they really just wanted to learn how they could 74 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 2: kind of protect their well being. And so from there 75 00:03:53,836 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 2: I kind of retrained in this new domain of happiness 76 00:03:56,756 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 2: studies and realized it was useful not just for Yale students, 77 00:03:59,916 --> 00:04:03,756 Speaker 2: but useful for like, honestly everyone, because everybody's trying to 78 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 2: be happy. Everyone's sort of feeling a little bit burned 79 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:08,676 Speaker 2: out these days and feeling a little stressed, and I 80 00:04:08,676 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 2: think so many of us are looking for strategies from 81 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 2: science about what we can do to feel better. 82 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:16,556 Speaker 1: So I want to establish the basics because there are 83 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 1: so many definitions of happiness out there, and there's so 84 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 1: many questions philosophical questions about what happiness is. Is it satisfaction? 85 00:04:23,436 --> 00:04:26,116 Speaker 1: Is it joy? Is it fulfillment? Is it pleasure? And 86 00:04:26,156 --> 00:04:29,756 Speaker 1: I really love how you and many other psychologists define 87 00:04:30,076 --> 00:04:34,516 Speaker 1: and measure happiness because to me, it encompasses so many 88 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:37,196 Speaker 1: of these concepts. So do you mind sharing how you 89 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: think of that happiness? 90 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is a definition that I've taken from 91 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:45,596 Speaker 2: Sonya Lubermirski, who's a professor at UC Riverside, and she 92 00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:49,636 Speaker 2: thinks about happiness as being defined as being happy in 93 00:04:49,676 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 2: your life and being happy with your life. So let's 94 00:04:53,036 --> 00:04:54,956 Speaker 2: kind of break this down. So, being happy in your 95 00:04:54,996 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 2: life this is the idea that you have a decent 96 00:04:57,156 --> 00:04:59,436 Speaker 2: number of positive emotions, or at least a decent ratio 97 00:04:59,516 --> 00:05:02,916 Speaker 2: of positive emotions to negative emotions. I think bracketed happiness 98 00:05:02,956 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 2: is not about getting rid of all of your negative emotions. 99 00:05:05,036 --> 00:05:08,636 Speaker 2: That's toxic positivity. That's not what happiness researchers mean, but 100 00:05:08,716 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 2: it does mean and like having a decent ratio of 101 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 2: positive things like cheerfulness and joy and laughter to the 102 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:16,276 Speaker 2: not so good things like anger and sadness and so on. 103 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:18,436 Speaker 2: So that's kind of being happy in your life, but 104 00:05:18,836 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 2: being happy with your life is a different construct. It's 105 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 2: how you think your life is going. So it's your 106 00:05:24,236 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 2: answer to the question, all things considered, how satisfied are 107 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 2: you with your life? And so researchers have called these 108 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 2: the affective and cognitive parts of subjective well being. So 109 00:05:33,316 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 2: the affective like the more emotional parts of happiness, and 110 00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 2: the cognitive how you think your life is going parts 111 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:41,116 Speaker 2: of happiness. And I love this definition because it shows 112 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 2: us a couple of things. One is, it shows us 113 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:46,116 Speaker 2: that these constructs can dissociate. And you probably know people 114 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 2: for whom they've dissociated. I have a friend who has 115 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 2: a newborn baby right now, and you know she is 116 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 2: with her life quite happy, right, you know, she's this 117 00:05:55,196 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 2: new like meaningful, bunderful love of joy who she loves 118 00:05:57,916 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 2: and you know, can't wait to see his future and 119 00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 2: so on. But like in her life, maybe the emotions 120 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 2: are not as good, right, there's like, yeah, it's like 121 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:09,396 Speaker 2: it's a rough go and you like have a newborn baby, right. 122 00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 2: And we probably also can come up with examples of 123 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:15,196 Speaker 2: the opposite. You know, somebody who might have in their 124 00:06:15,276 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 2: life all these like hedonistic pleasures. You know, think of 125 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:21,076 Speaker 2: some like super rich or super famous person, but with 126 00:06:21,236 --> 00:06:23,836 Speaker 2: their life, maybe they feel a certain emptiness. Right. And 127 00:06:23,876 --> 00:06:26,876 Speaker 2: So I love this definition because I think it captures 128 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,236 Speaker 2: so much of what I'm trying to help my students 129 00:06:29,236 --> 00:06:31,036 Speaker 2: with and what I'm trying to help my listeners with 130 00:06:31,036 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 2: with happiness. What I want them to have is a 131 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 2: life that's filled with lots of positive emotion and a 132 00:06:36,636 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 2: life that feels satisfying to live a life that they 133 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 2: think is going well. And the great news is there's 134 00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 2: so many strategies that we can use to boost both 135 00:06:44,236 --> 00:06:45,396 Speaker 2: of those constructs up. 136 00:06:47,036 --> 00:06:49,836 Speaker 1: What is the time horizon for thinking about the like 137 00:06:50,276 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 1: in your life versus the with your life? Because in 138 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: any given day, I wonder, you know, can you have 139 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: both that moment to moment understanding of your happiness and 140 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 1: then also that reflective experience. 141 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is a hard one. And this 142 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 2: is where we get to a sort of dirty secret 143 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 2: of the entire happiness science work, which is that to 144 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 2: measure people happiness in their life and with their life, 145 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:13,196 Speaker 2: we have to ask them, right, Like I wish we 146 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 2: had a little thermometer that we could stick in someone's 147 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 2: mouth that would say, well, in your life, you're you 148 00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:19,476 Speaker 2: know ninety nine point six happy, you know, out of 149 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:21,716 Speaker 2: one hundred or something, But we don't. We have to 150 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:24,396 Speaker 2: kind of ask people, and that brings up the problem 151 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 2: that whenever we're asking people, we're getting people's like retrospective 152 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 2: judgment about how things are going. If I were to 153 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 2: ask you, hey, you know what, how many positive emotions 154 00:07:33,796 --> 00:07:36,036 Speaker 2: did you experience this week? You'd have to think back 155 00:07:36,076 --> 00:07:38,556 Speaker 2: and make an evaluation of, well, how was that farmer's market, 156 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 2: how was that you know, interesting coffee shop I went to? Right, 157 00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 2: you'd have to kind of make a remembered judgment about something. 158 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:46,396 Speaker 2: The same is true and even more true in the 159 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 2: case of your happiness with your life. Right, you kind 160 00:07:49,036 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 2: of have to do a sort of summing of, like, well, 161 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 2: all things considered, how satisfied am I? You're kind of 162 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 2: making this sort of very cognitive judgment, and all of 163 00:07:55,836 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 2: the judgments are a little bit retrospective, right, And it 164 00:07:58,836 --> 00:08:02,596 Speaker 2: makes us worry that, like, maybe the judgments go wrong, 165 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:05,076 Speaker 2: and maybe those judgments particularly go wrong if you ask 166 00:08:05,156 --> 00:08:07,956 Speaker 2: people after a long time horizon. You know, many of 167 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: these happiness studies try to to do an analysis like 168 00:08:10,716 --> 00:08:13,116 Speaker 2: in the particular day, so tag you right now, like 169 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 2: how many positive emotions have you experienced this week? So 170 00:08:15,476 --> 00:08:18,876 Speaker 2: hopefully you'll kind of remember accurately. But sometimes we're having 171 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:22,076 Speaker 2: people give these retrospections a while back, and we might 172 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 2: be tapping into maybe a different form of happiness and 173 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 2: people's remembered happiness than in their kind of happiness in 174 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:31,196 Speaker 2: the moment. This is something that researcher Danny Conneman calls 175 00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 2: this distinction between experienced happiness and remembered happiness, Like it's 176 00:08:35,876 --> 00:08:38,156 Speaker 2: hard to know the experienced happiness because I have to 177 00:08:38,196 --> 00:08:40,476 Speaker 2: like ask you immediately and make sure you're not kind 178 00:08:40,476 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 2: of remembering to get it right. But you know, Danny 179 00:08:43,436 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 2: has this interesting quip where he says, well, which of 180 00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 2: these happinesses are we trying to maximize our experience or 181 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:50,876 Speaker 2: our remembered happiness? And I feel like he kind of 182 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:52,996 Speaker 2: comes down on the side of the remembered happiness, you know, 183 00:08:53,076 --> 00:08:55,596 Speaker 2: like the experienced happiness that's gone, Like all you have 184 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 2: access to is what you remember, and so maybe we 185 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 2: might want to maximize that one instead. 186 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 1: So a foundational message of your work is that we 187 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 1: as humans mispredict what is going to make us happy. 188 00:09:08,556 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: When it comes to happiness, we always have a well, 189 00:09:11,996 --> 00:09:14,556 Speaker 1: as soon as X happens, or as soon as Y happens, 190 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 1: as soon as I get to Z, that's when I'll 191 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 1: be happy. Right. We stall our happiness in present day 192 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:24,756 Speaker 1: with the hope that this future event will deliver all 193 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: the goods. And it might be for someone a promotion 194 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 1: they're waiting for, or having a family, or finally finding 195 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: a partner to get married to. And we just put 196 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 1: so much stock in that one event and then inevitably, 197 00:09:36,476 --> 00:09:39,076 Speaker 1: at least the research shows it will disappoint us, right 198 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 1: that end destination. 199 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is what researchers call the arrival fallacy, right, 200 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:45,956 Speaker 2: or I like to call it the happily ever after fallacy, 201 00:09:45,996 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 2: Like this thing happens and I'll be happy ever after, right. 202 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. 203 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:51,836 Speaker 2: So for example, you know my, like, some high school 204 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 2: student applies to Yale. They're really excited about it. They 205 00:09:53,836 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 2: get in. They over predict that that event of getting 206 00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 2: into Yale will feel amazing, like super super amazing, and 207 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 2: they predict that that feeling of happiness will last for 208 00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 2: a really long time. It turns out it doesn't feel 209 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 2: as amazing as you think, and that amazing feeling doesn't 210 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 2: last for as long as you think, And that's not 211 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 2: just true of getting into YEA, it's true of any 212 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 2: positive fact, whether that's like getting married or winning the lottery. 213 00:10:16,156 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 2: You know, pick your favorite positive thing. It just like 214 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 2: doesn't impact you for as much or as long as 215 00:10:21,036 --> 00:10:24,876 Speaker 2: you think. But this has like good news attached to 216 00:10:24,916 --> 00:10:27,396 Speaker 2: it as well, which is that the same is true 217 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:30,396 Speaker 2: for negative events, you know, So pick your terrible negative 218 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:34,076 Speaker 2: event right, Like you get divorced, you go bankrupt, like 219 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 2: you lose the ability to use your leg, you become paraplegic. 220 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 2: For example, all those things we predict would be really 221 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 2: really really bad. It would very negatively affect our happiness, 222 00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:45,876 Speaker 2: and we would feel pretty crappy about it for a 223 00:10:45,916 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 2: long time. But it turns out that we even more 224 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:53,516 Speaker 2: strongly mispredict in the negative direction. So, you know, we mispredict, 225 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 2: for example, that getting into yel will feel really good. 226 00:10:55,756 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 2: We even more mispredict that having a car crash and 227 00:10:58,716 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 2: becoming paraplegic would feel really bad, And we even more 228 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 2: strongly mispredict how long these negative events are going to last. 229 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,236 Speaker 2: And so research by Harvard professor Dan Gilbert has found 230 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:11,236 Speaker 2: that our impact bias is worse in the negative direction 231 00:11:11,316 --> 00:11:13,356 Speaker 2: than it is in the positive directions. We make even 232 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:16,956 Speaker 2: more mispredictions when we're dealing with bad events, which is 233 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 2: kind of good news, right, because it means that all 234 00:11:19,236 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 2: those things, all these things aren't really scared of, they're 235 00:11:21,516 --> 00:11:22,676 Speaker 2: not going to be as bad as we think. 236 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:26,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, And can you talk a bit about this concept 237 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 1: of the happiness set point and how when you talk 238 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: about this mixed prediction, what ends up happening is we 239 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: often just return back to our baseline faster than we 240 00:11:35,116 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: might have thought. 241 00:11:36,116 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so this is a phenomenon the researchers often 242 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 2: refer to as hedonic adaptation, where you just kind of 243 00:11:41,476 --> 00:11:43,476 Speaker 2: you go back to wherever your set point was and 244 00:11:43,516 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 2: happiness no matter what the good stuff and the bad 245 00:11:45,796 --> 00:11:48,796 Speaker 2: stuff is. And again that can feel a little bit depressing, right. 246 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 2: We want these new circumstances in our life that are 247 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 2: good to have this positive impact on our happiness for 248 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 2: a while, but actually we kind of just mostly go 249 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:58,236 Speaker 2: back to baseline. But that means the same is true 250 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 2: for all the crappy stuff in life, Like some terrible 251 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:02,956 Speaker 2: thing happens, and it will, you know, hurt a little 252 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:04,836 Speaker 2: bit less than we think, maybe for a while, but 253 00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: not for as long as we think, and so we're 254 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 2: much more stable in our set points for happy than 255 00:12:09,556 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 2: we expect. 256 00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:13,556 Speaker 1: I still remember learning about this research for the first time, 257 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:16,396 Speaker 1: and I think this is the most powerful finding that 258 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:19,236 Speaker 1: I've come across in my entire time as a cognitive 259 00:12:19,236 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 1: scientist when it came to impacting my personal life. And 260 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:26,196 Speaker 1: I think that's because my philosophy around life is to 261 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: minimize suffering. I'm less concerned with maximizing the positive, and 262 00:12:30,996 --> 00:12:34,196 Speaker 1: suffering is what scares the crap out of me, right, 263 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 1: and so learning that I would be more resilient in 264 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 1: the face of that suffering has been just I mean, 265 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:41,116 Speaker 1: it was a boon. Yeah. 266 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 2: I mean, how often are we like, really over analyzing 267 00:12:45,036 --> 00:12:47,796 Speaker 2: some decision because we're trying to avoid some negative outcome 268 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 2: when we could really say to ourselves, actually, if that 269 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 2: worst case scenario happened, I'd actually be fine with it, 270 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 2: or I'd be more fine than I think, and it 271 00:12:56,916 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 2: wouldn't impact me for as long as I think. And 272 00:12:59,036 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 2: so I think, Yeah, recognizing that your impact bias can 273 00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 2: kind of make you a little bit more resilient. It 274 00:13:04,676 --> 00:13:06,356 Speaker 2: can make you a little bit more open to however 275 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:07,516 Speaker 2: the world is going to be like. 276 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: Risk seeking, you knowing of closure. Yeah, and how robust 277 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: are those findings Because there are times where I feel 278 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: like I'm exceptional in this way. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 279 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:21,556 Speaker 1: the average person will be really resilient, but I kmm a, 280 00:13:21,636 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 1: maaya won't be because I suck in a particular way. 281 00:13:24,676 --> 00:13:27,596 Speaker 1: And so can people buy and large feel fairly good 282 00:13:27,636 --> 00:13:31,076 Speaker 1: given their mental constitution that they will show these effects. 283 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, there is you know, well, 284 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:36,556 Speaker 2: there's like this so called replication crisis in psychology, but like, 285 00:13:36,716 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any replication crisis when it comes 286 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 2: to effective forecasting or impact bias. This is the kind 287 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:44,876 Speaker 2: of thing that everybody shows and people is shoe it 288 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 2: both in these like natural field data, like of people 289 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:50,596 Speaker 2: who actually have wonderful and terrible things happen, like winning 290 00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:52,996 Speaker 2: the lottery and so on. This is like one that 291 00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 2: seems to be a universal. 292 00:13:54,876 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's great. That's great because I can I've 293 00:13:57,676 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 1: definitely felt that way, and I can imagine a lot 294 00:13:59,156 --> 00:14:01,676 Speaker 1: of people listening thinking okay, yeah, sure on average, but 295 00:14:02,356 --> 00:14:03,756 Speaker 1: you know me not really. 296 00:14:04,116 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is super important, right, because a 297 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:09,796 Speaker 2: real problem with these like cognitive errors is that even 298 00:14:09,796 --> 00:14:12,676 Speaker 2: when we learn how they work, they don't go away. Right, 299 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 2: So I like literally have whole podcast episodes and whole 300 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 2: lectures about hedonic adaptation. But when I'm making a prediction 301 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:22,996 Speaker 2: about something happening, I get just as freaked out about it. 302 00:14:23,036 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 2: I get just as worried, Like I am just as 303 00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:28,596 Speaker 2: bad at predicting as everybody else. But I can kind 304 00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 2: of remember the data and sort of course correct a 305 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 2: little bit after the fact. And so I think that's important, right, Like, 306 00:14:34,716 --> 00:14:37,276 Speaker 2: knowing about these biases doesn't make them go away, It 307 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 2: just makes you, like have a little bit more awareness. 308 00:14:39,636 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 2: You can kind of update a little bit after the fact. 309 00:14:42,396 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as you know, I studied visual perception 310 00:14:44,556 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: and undergrad and it was it was akin to you know, 311 00:14:46,876 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 1: the visual illusions and illusion. But you can't unsee it exactly. 312 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:51,796 Speaker 1: At least in the case of happiness. We can be 313 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: a little bit more intentional, deliverate and change our mental frames. 314 00:14:54,796 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: But yeah, absolutely, I think I'm sure this happens to 315 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Assume given the field we're in, Oh, 316 00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: you must be so disciplined about eating and exercise and 317 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 1: all these other things, and it's like not really. We 318 00:15:07,676 --> 00:15:11,036 Speaker 1: know the tactics, but implement them is a different matter altogether. 319 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,276 Speaker 2: In fact, my next whole season of the podcast is 320 00:15:14,276 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 2: going to be about happiness challenges that I face on 321 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab. So fun, yeah, so fun, but also 322 00:15:20,796 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 2: so personal and kind of so painful. 323 00:15:25,036 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 1: How fixed is this? So if I'm someone listening to 324 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 1: this podcast and I'm thinking, look, I'm committed to being happier, 325 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:32,916 Speaker 1: I really want to be happier. I'm going to work 326 00:15:32,956 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: super super hard, Laurie, what do you have to tell 327 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 1: me in terms of hope in this domain. 328 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:41,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's some bad news and good news, as 329 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:42,796 Speaker 2: there often is in science. So the bad news is 330 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 2: that there is a heritable component to our overall subjective 331 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 2: well being. Like, if you grew up with parents who 332 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 2: are really unhappy and you have the genes for unhappiness, 333 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 2: it's going to be harder for you to be happy 334 00:15:54,916 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 2: than it might be for somebody to whom happiness comes 335 00:15:57,316 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 2: a little bit more naturally. So there is a sort 336 00:15:59,716 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 2: of heritable component to happiness, but it's pretty tiny, right, 337 00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 2: It's tinier than most of the other traits that we 338 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:07,636 Speaker 2: have out there, And that means there's lots of room 339 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 2: for malleyability. So the good news is that that range 340 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 2: is really really flexible. It's much more flexible than we think. Like, 341 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 2: even if you're a natural kind of set point right 342 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:21,076 Speaker 2: now might be feeling a little bit unhappy, that doesn't 343 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 2: necessarily say that you're going to be stuck right there 344 00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 2: for your whole life. There's probably a rain you might 345 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:28,356 Speaker 2: not be like the happiest person on the planet, but 346 00:16:28,436 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 2: you can engage with strategies to become much happier than 347 00:16:31,276 --> 00:16:33,556 Speaker 2: you are right now. The problem is that we do 348 00:16:33,676 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 2: that the wrong way. The problem is that we do 349 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:37,996 Speaker 2: that by like trying to change our circumstances. We try 350 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 2: to go for the lotteries and the big college wins, 351 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 2: as we were just talking about. We try to engage 352 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:45,156 Speaker 2: in things that are just not going to feel as 353 00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:47,716 Speaker 2: happy as we think. The key to really changing our 354 00:16:47,716 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 2: happiness is that we need to realize the right ways 355 00:16:49,996 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 2: to do it. 356 00:16:51,756 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: One really powerful finding is that even small tweaks in 357 00:16:55,596 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: the way we frame an experience can have a big 358 00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: impact on the way that we process it from a 359 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:04,196 Speaker 1: hedonic perspective, And so can you talk about the role 360 00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:08,596 Speaker 1: that expectations play in the way that we interpret in experience. 361 00:17:09,276 --> 00:17:12,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, expectations are huge. I mean, wasn't it Shakespeare? 362 00:17:12,316 --> 00:17:14,636 Speaker 2: There's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. 363 00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 2: I mean, this is like how basically all of our 364 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 2: psychology works. We just don't do it in objective terms. 365 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 2: We think in terms of some reference point, and it's 366 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 2: also often some reference point that makes us feel kind 367 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 2: of crappy about whatever we've just gotten or achieved in 368 00:17:29,076 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 2: our own life. My favorite example of this comes from 369 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:36,596 Speaker 2: the Olympics. So imagine that you're some amazing athlete, you're 370 00:17:36,636 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 2: an Olympian, and you win a silver medal, right like 371 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 2: your second best in the entire world in some sport. 372 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 2: You might think I would feel amazing, right, But it 373 00:17:46,396 --> 00:17:49,276 Speaker 2: turns out that if you actually analyze how silver medalists 374 00:17:49,356 --> 00:17:53,156 Speaker 2: experience receiving the silver medal, they're not feeling elated. They're 375 00:17:53,156 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 2: actually feeling awful. If you analyze their like emotional expressions 376 00:17:56,316 --> 00:17:59,876 Speaker 2: on the stand, like you see expressions of contempt discussed, 377 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 2: like deep sadness, right like, it looks like they've like 378 00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:04,996 Speaker 2: you know, lost a loved one or something. It's that terrible, 379 00:18:05,476 --> 00:18:07,436 Speaker 2: and you say, like, what is going on, Well, what's 380 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:10,756 Speaker 2: going on is that they're evaluating based on an expectation, 381 00:18:10,836 --> 00:18:12,996 Speaker 2: a reference point. What's the obvious reference point? If you've 382 00:18:13,036 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 2: won silver, it's a gold medal. You didn't get that, 383 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:18,156 Speaker 2: and you don't see that you've beat you know, millions 384 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:20,076 Speaker 2: and millions of people around the world. You just see, 385 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 2: I didn't do as good as I could have done. 386 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:24,276 Speaker 2: And what's super interesting is that if you analyze the 387 00:18:24,316 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 2: emotional expressions of bronze medalists, you see just the opposite. 388 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:30,876 Speaker 2: They are elated, they are happy. Sometimes they're even happier 389 00:18:30,916 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 2: than the person who won the gold medal. And the 390 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 2: reason is that their reference point is totally different. What's 391 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 2: the reference point that's staling it? If you just want 392 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 2: a bronze medal, like you weren't going to get gold, 393 00:18:39,316 --> 00:18:42,676 Speaker 2: you are like many seconds or you know, many moments away, right, 394 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 2: like many points away. Your reference point is like, if 395 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:47,236 Speaker 2: i'd just done a little bit worse, I wouldn't be 396 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 2: up here at all, Like I would no metal, no 397 00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:52,956 Speaker 2: metal at all. Right, And so you are thrilled, You're like, 398 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 2: by the skin of my teeth, I'm up here, and 399 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 2: my parents are gonna be so proud. This is great, right, 400 00:18:57,516 --> 00:18:59,756 Speaker 2: that's the power of reference points. Like we're not thinking 401 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 2: in terms of our objective performance. We're just thinking in 402 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 2: terms of how we did relative to some expectation. And 403 00:19:05,916 --> 00:19:08,796 Speaker 2: that's powerful because it means if we set the right expectations, 404 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 2: we could probably feel a lot happier with however we 405 00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 2: did objectively. 406 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:18,076 Speaker 1: Still ahead, Laurie and I talk about science back strategies 407 00:19:18,156 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: for making yourself happier. We'll be back in a moment 408 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. All right, so, Lari, 409 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:35,916 Speaker 1: let's talk through what the research says about how we 410 00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: can become happier. Let's start with strong social relationships. This 411 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:43,916 Speaker 1: seems to be like the number one thing. 412 00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 2: It's very, very. 413 00:19:44,956 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: Very hard to be happy if you lack this, So 414 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: tell me more. 415 00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, people like Marty Seligman and Ed Diner are these 416 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:54,236 Speaker 2: super famous positive psychology researchers claim that social connection is 417 00:19:54,276 --> 00:19:57,356 Speaker 2: a necessary condition for high happiness. Right. You cannot be 418 00:19:57,676 --> 00:20:01,076 Speaker 2: highly happy without it. And that's because, like we're social primates, right, 419 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 2: we really get lots of positive emotion out of being 420 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:05,796 Speaker 2: with other people. We feel like our life is more 421 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 2: satisfying when we're close to others, and there's tons of 422 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:10,756 Speaker 2: evidence that just people who spend more time with the 423 00:20:10,756 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 2: people they care about, and who just spend more time 424 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 2: with people all together wind up feeling happier. And importantly, 425 00:20:16,836 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 2: this is true whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. 426 00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:21,356 Speaker 2: I sometimes hear from a lot of my listeners who 427 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:23,836 Speaker 2: are introverts who say things like, Okay, that social connection 428 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:26,956 Speaker 2: thing sounds great for some extrovert like you, but for 429 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 2: an introvert like me, that sounds miserable. And really, what 430 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:33,196 Speaker 2: the data show are that if you're an introvert, you 431 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:35,716 Speaker 2: do need some alone time, but you still get the 432 00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:38,756 Speaker 2: same kind of positive emotion boost from being around other people, 433 00:20:38,836 --> 00:20:41,756 Speaker 2: especially when you interact with other people in like small settings, 434 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 2: you know, calling a friend or hanging out with someone 435 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 2: you're really close to. Right, And so I think this 436 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,876 Speaker 2: is just a human universal that social connection winds up 437 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 2: making us happier. 438 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, are you even an extrovert? I feel like 439 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: you're kind of in you Why not? 440 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 2: I get us of being an extrovert all the time 441 00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 2: because I talk about social connection, But you know me, 442 00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 2: like I would look solo in my house all the time. 443 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just because you have a podcast doesn't make 444 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,556 Speaker 1: you an extrovert, right exactly. Yeah, And I think I 445 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: definitely found a hit to my well being during COVID, 446 00:21:09,716 --> 00:21:12,236 Speaker 1: where it wasn't possible anymore to engage in small talk 447 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: with people that I would see to coffee shop or 448 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 1: just waving and smiling to people on the street. Those 449 00:21:17,716 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: little moments were so precious, and I'd been taking them 450 00:21:21,076 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 1: for granted, because when I lost that ability that part 451 00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:27,476 Speaker 1: of my social fabric, I really felt affected. 452 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:29,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a lot of people were, not 453 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:31,396 Speaker 2: just during COVID, but you know, there's tons of evidence 454 00:21:31,396 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 2: that these weak ties, these kind of quick conversations we 455 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 2: have with the brista at a coffee shop or just 456 00:21:36,636 --> 00:21:38,796 Speaker 2: like someone on the street, they wind up being really 457 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 2: important for our positive mood. Researcher Nick Epley, who's a 458 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 2: professor at the University of Chicago who studies this phenomenon 459 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:48,116 Speaker 2: he calls undersociality, where we like don't take into account 460 00:21:48,116 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 2: our social connection as much as we should. He describes 461 00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:53,996 Speaker 2: happiness overall as a leaky tire. You know, you're kind 462 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 2: of happy for a while, but your happiness tires leak 463 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:57,756 Speaker 2: in and you got to fill it up. And he 464 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 2: says that These quick conversations with strangers are like one 465 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:02,356 Speaker 2: of the fastest ways to fill up your leaky tire. 466 00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:05,796 Speaker 1: One thing I've tried to do recently to strengthen social 467 00:22:05,836 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 1: connections is just call people on the phone. I've just 468 00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:11,276 Speaker 1: started doing that, and I think it really just freaked 469 00:22:11,276 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: people out in the beginning, because they're like, whoa, do 470 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:14,356 Speaker 1: we have like a scheduled time? 471 00:22:14,396 --> 00:22:15,076 Speaker 2: What happened right? 472 00:22:16,036 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 1: It's like four fourteen. I don't think we had a 473 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 1: call scheduled. This actually happened a couple of weeks ago 474 00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: where Michael lewis a friend of both of ours and 475 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,716 Speaker 1: someone who also has a pushkin podcast. I was just 476 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 1: thinking about him, so I gave him a phone call 477 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:31,996 Speaker 1: and he picked up and was like, did you just 478 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: butt dial me? Maya like this has to be a 479 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:36,436 Speaker 1: butt dial and I was like, no, I just wanted 480 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:38,676 Speaker 1: to say hello and see how you were doing. Turned 481 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 1: out he was battling the flu, he had been in 482 00:22:41,196 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 1: bed for a few days, and he loved the company, 483 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:46,076 Speaker 1: and we had a great chat and it boosted his mood. 484 00:22:46,396 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 1: And it just built my confidence that those unexpected moments 485 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:51,356 Speaker 1: where you just call people and connect with them can 486 00:22:51,396 --> 00:22:54,396 Speaker 1: be really powerful, but it takes a little bit of courage. 487 00:22:54,436 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 2: It does take a little bit of courage. I mean, 488 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 2: I think the problem with social connection is that there's 489 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 2: a little friction there, right, especially given the other things 490 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 2: we have to do that aren't social connection, right, Like 491 00:23:03,836 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 2: you're picking up the phone and dialing it and calling 492 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 2: michae Lewis, Like, there's a little awkwardness there. It's much 493 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 2: easier to just like scroll on your Instagram or do 494 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 2: something dumb that kind of has this feeling of social 495 00:23:13,636 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 2: connection but isn't as social as we think. And so 496 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:18,156 Speaker 2: I think one of the tasks of engaging in more 497 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 2: social connection is we have to overcome that like speed, 498 00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 2: bump of friction, cost of like a little bit of vulnerability, 499 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 2: a little bit of work to kind of make those connections. 500 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:30,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, speaking of phones, let's talk about the role 501 00:23:30,876 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 1: of technology and our phones and what impact they have 502 00:23:35,236 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 1: on our on our social connections, and then what we 503 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:38,276 Speaker 1: can do about that. Yeah. 504 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:41,036 Speaker 2: I mean phones are so ironic, right. They were literally 505 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:43,196 Speaker 2: built so that we could talk to other people, like 506 00:23:43,276 --> 00:23:45,556 Speaker 2: that is what the purpose of a phone was. But 507 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,156 Speaker 2: now phones have become this tool that we can use 508 00:23:48,356 --> 00:23:51,716 Speaker 2: to look at our email or check what's going on 509 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,116 Speaker 2: in politics, or you know, look at a million other 510 00:23:54,156 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 2: factoids in the world. What started as a tool just 511 00:23:57,356 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 2: for connecting with other people has turned into, honestly, this 512 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:03,116 Speaker 2: terrible opportunity costs when it comes to connecting with other people. 513 00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:05,756 Speaker 2: How often have you, you know, been out at dinner 514 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 2: and looked over and seen some couple or they're like 515 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:09,596 Speaker 2: both just looking at their phone and they have this 516 00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 2: precious time to talk to one another in real life, 517 00:24:11,596 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: but they're just like not actually speaking to one another. 518 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 2: Or sadly at times that I've done that myself where 519 00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 2: my husband saying something and I was like, oh uh, 520 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 2: could you say that again? What? I was looking at 521 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:23,076 Speaker 2: my email? Right? And this is terrible, right. It means 522 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:25,636 Speaker 2: that we might be missing out on something really important 523 00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 2: with the social connections we have in real life because 524 00:24:27,756 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 2: we're like looking at some dumb stuff on the internet. 525 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:33,476 Speaker 2: And so, how can we deal with this opportunity cost 526 00:24:33,516 --> 00:24:36,036 Speaker 2: in like a healthy way? And one of my favorite 527 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:39,436 Speaker 2: strategies comes from the journalist Catherine Price. She has this 528 00:24:39,516 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 2: strategy that she calls WWW, which is an acronym that 529 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 2: stands for what for, why now and what else? And 530 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 2: so Her idea is that whenever you happen to notice 531 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:50,596 Speaker 2: that your phone in your hand, you ask those questions. 532 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 2: First off, what for? Was there some purpose that I 533 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:54,876 Speaker 2: was looking? You know, I was really looking at the weather? 534 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 2: Or did it just like wind up there? Because like 535 00:24:57,316 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 2: with no purpose in mind, I'm just like scrolling through whatever? Right? Why? Now? Right? 536 00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 2: This is the sort of emotional question, like what caused 537 00:25:03,836 --> 00:25:06,476 Speaker 2: me to pick up my phone? Was it some functional reason? 538 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 2: Or maybe it was boredom, or maybe I was feeling awkward? 539 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:11,676 Speaker 2: What's the kind of queue that caused you to pick 540 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:14,716 Speaker 2: up your phone? And then, perhaps most important, what else? 541 00:25:14,956 --> 00:25:17,716 Speaker 2: That's the opportunity cost question? What am I missing out on? 542 00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:18,636 Speaker 1: That's the big one. 543 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 2: That's a big one, right, is like am I just 544 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,076 Speaker 2: like not being present in the world, or am I 545 00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:26,156 Speaker 2: ignoring my husband? Or am I avoiding something? Right? Like? 546 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 2: What's the opportunity cost of being on your phone? 547 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:29,596 Speaker 1: Right now? 548 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 2: And I love this acronym because it doesn't say like 549 00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 2: get off your phone all the time, right, but it 550 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 2: allows you to mindfully notice what's happening when you're on 551 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,116 Speaker 2: your devices and how those devices are making you feel, 552 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:41,676 Speaker 2: and what you happen to be missing out on it 553 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 2: kind of brings to light the things that you might 554 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:45,236 Speaker 2: be missing by being on your phone. 555 00:25:45,556 --> 00:25:47,836 Speaker 1: I love to also talk about another happiness tip that 556 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:49,756 Speaker 1: I know has a lot of personal resonance for you, 557 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 1: because this is something you've really struggled with. Can you 558 00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 1: talk about time affluence? Ah? 559 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:57,996 Speaker 2: Yes, time affluence. This is the subjective sense that we 560 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,076 Speaker 2: have some free time, something that until recently was very 561 00:26:01,116 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 2: foreign to me because I experienced the opposite, which is 562 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 2: what researchers call time famine, where you're literally starving for time. 563 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:09,876 Speaker 2: And research shows it time famine feels a lot like 564 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 2: hunger famine, like it works a lot like that in 565 00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:14,476 Speaker 2: your body, where you're literally you're activating your fight or 566 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 2: flight system and so on. And it turns out that 567 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 2: time famine is really bad for your happiness. And so 568 00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 2: the answer is that we need to kind of free 569 00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:25,956 Speaker 2: up more time. We need to prioritize our time. And 570 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:28,556 Speaker 2: one way to do that, researcher actually will In suggests, 571 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:32,756 Speaker 2: is to like trade off more time for money. Often 572 00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 2: we can do these things with our money that give 573 00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:36,716 Speaker 2: us back more time, but we don't usually frame it 574 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 2: like that. So take going out to eat, head out, 575 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 2: to eat. You know, you and your husband Jimmy head 576 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 2: out to eat. That's like some food that you didn't 577 00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:45,676 Speaker 2: have to cook yourself. Those are dishes you didn't have 578 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 2: to prepare, you didn't need to look up the recipe. 579 00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:49,516 Speaker 2: Going out to dinner with your husband might be a 580 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:51,756 Speaker 2: time savings of what like an hour and a half 581 00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:54,556 Speaker 2: two hours. The question is like, what did you use 582 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:57,076 Speaker 2: that time for? Right, So this is a simple active 583 00:26:57,076 --> 00:26:59,716 Speaker 2: reframing that we can use with something as silly as 584 00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:01,516 Speaker 2: going out to dinner to realize like, hey, that was 585 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 2: a spot where I spent some money to give myself 586 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 2: back some time. And Willin's points out that you know, look, 587 00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 2: this might sound privileged to some foak who have discretionary income, 588 00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:13,236 Speaker 2: but when she finds us at every level, if you 589 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 2: have any discretionary income whatsoever, the more you spend that 590 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 2: discretionary income to get back time, the happier you are. 591 00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:21,516 Speaker 2: So this isn't just for like rich people who get 592 00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 2: to go out to like you know, like Michelin starred 593 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:26,036 Speaker 2: restaurants all the time. This is any of us. Can 594 00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:27,876 Speaker 2: you know, pay the kid next door to like pick 595 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 2: up the yard or clean up the snow, or take 596 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 2: out the trash. Right, These like simple ways of spending 597 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 2: some money to get back time can be important, but 598 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:38,996 Speaker 2: I think a bigger strategies to take time to remember 599 00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 2: that you should use the time you do have wisely. 600 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:44,796 Speaker 2: The journalist Bridget Shult coined this term that I love 601 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:48,156 Speaker 2: called time confetti, which refers to these little pieces of 602 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:50,636 Speaker 2: time that are floating around. You know that five minutes 603 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:53,196 Speaker 2: when your Zoom meeting ends early, or the ten minutes 604 00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 2: when your kid falls asleep quicker than expected. We never 605 00:27:56,916 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 2: recognize that those are big chunks of time, so we 606 00:27:59,116 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 2: just kind of blow that time confetti away. We just 607 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:02,756 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, I don't know, check our email, or 608 00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:07,636 Speaker 2: scroll on Instagram, or scroll scroll scroll. If you add 609 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:09,396 Speaker 2: it up, it winds up being a lot of time. 610 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 2: In fact, like researchers have found that we actually have 611 00:28:12,036 --> 00:28:14,676 Speaker 2: more free time in our time confetti now than we 612 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 2: did back in the day. It's just kind of broken 613 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:19,156 Speaker 2: up into these tiny chunks so we don't notice it. 614 00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:22,836 Speaker 2: And so a strategy for improving your time affluence and 615 00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:25,196 Speaker 2: your happiness is what can you do to make good 616 00:28:25,276 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 2: use of that time confetti. Maybe that's when you call 617 00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:30,476 Speaker 2: a friend you know who accused you of butt dialing him. 618 00:28:30,516 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 2: Maybe that's the time when you like take time to 619 00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:35,916 Speaker 2: do a quick deep breath. Maybe like that's the time 620 00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 2: when you engage in better self talk with yourself. We 621 00:28:38,556 --> 00:28:40,756 Speaker 2: can use those time confetti moments to do any of 622 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 2: these strategies that help us feel better and that can 623 00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 2: be really helpful for our happiness. 624 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 1: I'd love to talk about my favorite happiness boosting strategy, 625 00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:50,956 Speaker 1: which is being other oriented generally. 626 00:28:51,796 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is an important one, especially these days, 627 00:28:54,116 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 2: because I think this is something that culture gets really wrong, right, 628 00:28:56,876 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 2: Like I think these days, whenever we talk about happiness, 629 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 2: we hear about things like self care or treat yourself. 630 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 2: It's like self self self. We assume that happiness is 631 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 2: just about investing in ourselves. But if you look at 632 00:29:07,596 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 2: happy people, that's not what happy people are doing. Happy 633 00:29:10,036 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 2: people tend to be much more other oriented. They're volunteering 634 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:16,796 Speaker 2: for charities, They're spending time on the people they care about. 635 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 2: They're doing nice things for others, whether that's with their 636 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:21,516 Speaker 2: money or with their time. They just tend to be 637 00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 2: a lot more focused on other people's happiness than their 638 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:26,516 Speaker 2: own happiness. And research shows that even if that's not 639 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:29,436 Speaker 2: your natural inclination, you can engage with that a little 640 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 2: bit more. Researchers like Liz Done in her colleagues at 641 00:29:32,196 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 2: the University of British Columbia do these studies where they 642 00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:37,556 Speaker 2: hand subjects money on the street but kind of force 643 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:39,796 Speaker 2: them to spend that money in particular ways. You're either 644 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:43,036 Speaker 2: forced to spend that money on something self careish, like 645 00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:45,316 Speaker 2: you do something nice for yourself, or you're forced to 646 00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:48,156 Speaker 2: spend that money on other people. And what she finds is, 647 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:50,116 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, those people who are 648 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: forced to spend money on others wind up feeling happier 649 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:54,796 Speaker 2: than those that were forced to spend the same amount 650 00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:57,156 Speaker 2: of money on something that was more for themselves, that 651 00:29:57,236 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 2: was more selfish. And so I love this study because 652 00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 2: it suggests that even if that's not your natural inclination, 653 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 2: you can kind of add in more stuff where you're 654 00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 2: just like a little bit more focused on other people, 655 00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 2: and that the evidence suggests that will naturally make you 656 00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:09,156 Speaker 2: feel how. 657 00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 1: Beer I feel. Like I've heard before that the happiest 658 00:30:12,676 --> 00:30:14,796 Speaker 1: people are the people who don't spend a lot of 659 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:17,516 Speaker 1: time thinking about their own happiness. Is that true? Like, 660 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:18,676 Speaker 1: is that what research shows. 661 00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 2: I think yes and no. Right, I think because of 662 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 2: all these misconceptions, in some ways, we do have to 663 00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 2: focus on our happiness or we might be doing it wrong. 664 00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:30,716 Speaker 2: Like I think, if we're pretending that these new circumstances 665 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:32,476 Speaker 2: will make us, you know, happy, and we have to 666 00:30:32,796 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 2: have this specific achievement or this great outcome, like we're 667 00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 2: going to get that wrong. And so I do think 668 00:30:38,316 --> 00:30:40,276 Speaker 2: that we want to be thinking about happiness, but we 669 00:30:40,316 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 2: want to be thinking about it in the right way. 670 00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:44,156 Speaker 2: What we assume people would do when I think about 671 00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: happiness is like me, me, me, you know, put in 672 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 2: all these strategies. We don't think, Oh, they'll just take 673 00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:51,236 Speaker 2: time to like be with other people, and they'll stop 674 00:30:51,276 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 2: trying to achieve as much because they'll recognize the importance 675 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:55,476 Speaker 2: of time affluence, and we'll take lots of time off 676 00:30:55,476 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 2: and rest, you know, or they'll you know, volunteer for 677 00:30:57,636 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 2: charity and do this nice stuff for others. That's not 678 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 2: our stereotype of people narcissistically pursuing happiness, And so I 679 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:06,116 Speaker 2: think it's not the pursuit of happiness that's the problem. 680 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 2: It's the fact that we generally tend to do it wrong, 681 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:12,036 Speaker 2: start to do it right. You know, we'll feel happier 682 00:31:12,476 --> 00:31:14,716 Speaker 2: and be better off because we were thinking about our 683 00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:16,796 Speaker 2: happiness and trying to find good ways to pursue it. 684 00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:20,716 Speaker 1: What advice do you have for people listening to this 685 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:24,876 Speaker 1: who don't feel licensed to be happy or feel guilty 686 00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:27,076 Speaker 1: being happy because they take a look around them and 687 00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:30,316 Speaker 1: they see so much suffering the world. It just it 688 00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 1: feels like it's almost too jarring to try and entertain 689 00:31:34,716 --> 00:31:35,756 Speaker 1: happiness for themselves. 690 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,476 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'll start with saying I get it, 691 00:31:38,596 --> 00:31:40,236 Speaker 2: like I look around in the world, and I'm a 692 00:31:40,236 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 2: happiness expert, and I think exactly the same thing. But 693 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 2: I think that idea comes from a certain assumption that 694 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:50,076 Speaker 2: we have about like positive emotions and happiness. I think 695 00:31:50,236 --> 00:31:52,996 Speaker 2: we feel guilty feeling happy when the whole world is 696 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:55,676 Speaker 2: falling apart in part because we think, well, if I'm happy, 697 00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 2: I'm probably not going to do anything about it, right, 698 00:31:58,196 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 2: I'm just going to like ignore the fact that the 699 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 2: world is on fire, like if I feel good about it. 700 00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:03,516 Speaker 1: Placency. 701 00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like a like a Pollyanna hypothesis 702 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,156 Speaker 2: where I'll just be like, it's like the dog and 703 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:09,956 Speaker 2: that meme with the fire where he's sitting in the 704 00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 2: fire and he's like, this is fine. Like if we're happy, 705 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 2: we're like, this is fine. I don't care if the 706 00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:17,076 Speaker 2: world's on fire. But that's a hypothesis about how the 707 00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:19,356 Speaker 2: human mind works. It's a hypothesis that when we're in 708 00:32:19,396 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 2: a positive mood, we're more likely to ignore the bad 709 00:32:22,396 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 2: stuff going on in the world, and we're more likely 710 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 2: to kind of just engage in inaction rather than doing 711 00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:30,036 Speaker 2: something good about it. And RESEARCHERR. Constantin Kushlev at Georgetown 712 00:32:30,036 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 2: has actually tested this. He's asked the question, Okay, who 713 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 2: are the people who are out there doing the like 714 00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:38,956 Speaker 2: really important social justice things in life, For example, who's 715 00:32:38,996 --> 00:32:41,396 Speaker 2: going to a Black Lives Matter protest or who's taking 716 00:32:41,436 --> 00:32:44,076 Speaker 2: climate action, like not just being anxious about the fact 717 00:32:44,076 --> 00:32:46,556 Speaker 2: that the climate is changing its scary right now, but 718 00:32:46,636 --> 00:32:49,756 Speaker 2: really doing stuff to protect it. And what he finds 719 00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:53,436 Speaker 2: is that people's positive mood winds up predicting the amount 720 00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 2: of social justice action that people take. In other words, 721 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 2: like the people who are in the best mood are 722 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:00,436 Speaker 2: the ones who are going to the protests, who are 723 00:33:00,516 --> 00:33:03,476 Speaker 2: engaging in climate action and so on. And whenever I 724 00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:05,796 Speaker 2: say that result, I'm always like, oh, yeah, of course 725 00:33:05,836 --> 00:33:07,436 Speaker 2: that had to be the case, right, Like, if you're 726 00:33:07,676 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 2: too depressed a function most and you're feeling overwhelmingly anxious, 727 00:33:11,196 --> 00:33:13,876 Speaker 2: you're not like getting out there to do stuff, like 728 00:33:13,916 --> 00:33:16,916 Speaker 2: you're just like in bed, like not able to do anything. 729 00:33:17,676 --> 00:33:19,476 Speaker 2: These data are great because I think they give me 730 00:33:19,516 --> 00:33:22,316 Speaker 2: a license to say, Oh, if I want to actually 731 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:24,956 Speaker 2: change the bad stuff in the world, I do need 732 00:33:24,996 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 2: to focus on my mental health. I do need to 733 00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 2: focus on my positive mood. It matters. It is the 734 00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:33,236 Speaker 2: path to having the bandwidth and the wherewithal to actually 735 00:33:33,316 --> 00:33:35,156 Speaker 2: make the changes that we want to see in the world. 736 00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's the best answer I could have 737 00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: possibly imagined. I didn't know about that research. And you know, Laurie, 738 00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:43,676 Speaker 1: I'm reflecting in this moment on my own life, and 739 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:45,516 Speaker 1: you're giving me so much food for thought, and I'm 740 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:48,196 Speaker 1: realizing that, Okay, that's the macro stuff where you're trying 741 00:33:48,236 --> 00:33:50,796 Speaker 1: to fight these big social justice issues. When I think 742 00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:52,756 Speaker 1: about the happiest periods of my life, I was a 743 00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 1: better friend, I was a better daughter, I was a 744 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:58,556 Speaker 1: better mentor, I was a better coworker, I was just 745 00:33:58,676 --> 00:34:02,076 Speaker 1: better to everyone in my life during those periods. And 746 00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:05,436 Speaker 1: so this is operating at a micro and at a 747 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:07,996 Speaker 1: macro level in terms of our positive impact on the world. 748 00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was a really early paper by a 749 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 2: Yale professor Peter Salive, who I know you know well, 750 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 2: on what he called the feel good do good effect, 751 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 2: which is like, if you happen to put people in 752 00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:21,556 Speaker 2: a positive mood, then they do these little tiny acts 753 00:34:21,556 --> 00:34:24,156 Speaker 2: of kindness towards the people around them. These were like 754 00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:27,436 Speaker 2: old studies where you'd have people hear some positive news 755 00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:29,236 Speaker 2: on the radio and they'd be more likely to like 756 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,356 Speaker 2: help someone who drop their contact, you know, in the 757 00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 2: mall or something like that. Or you kind of have 758 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:36,756 Speaker 2: people listen to happy music at the gym and they'll 759 00:34:36,796 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 2: be more likely to help someone who needs some assistance 760 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:42,196 Speaker 2: with their study of handing out leaflets or something like that. 761 00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:45,036 Speaker 2: These the ideas that when we're feeling good, we end 762 00:34:45,116 --> 00:34:47,316 Speaker 2: up doing good both for the people who are close 763 00:34:47,356 --> 00:34:49,356 Speaker 2: to us in our lives and just like people generally. 764 00:34:49,516 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 2: And again, I think we just have this like incorrect 765 00:34:52,836 --> 00:34:55,716 Speaker 2: view that like if we're good, if we're feeling good, yeah, 766 00:34:55,836 --> 00:34:58,156 Speaker 2: we'll just ignore everybody else. We'll just kind of focus 767 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 2: on our own good. But it's the opposite. You know. 768 00:35:00,396 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 2: So many positive emotions are what's called pro social emotions, 769 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:06,516 Speaker 2: things like gratitude and so on, Like they make us 770 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 2: want to do good for other people, and so Eric go, 771 00:35:10,236 --> 00:35:11,796 Speaker 2: if we want good things to happen in the world, 772 00:35:11,796 --> 00:35:13,676 Speaker 2: we might want to focus on people's mental health and 773 00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:16,156 Speaker 2: give them more of those positive emotions. 774 00:35:17,076 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 1: I love it all right, Thanks so much, Laurie. Happy World, 775 00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:20,316 Speaker 1: Happiness Day. 776 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:22,196 Speaker 2: Happy World, Happiness Day. A, Maya, thanks so much for 777 00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 2: having me on the show. 778 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:54,876 Speaker 1: Absolutely, thanks for coming. Hey, thanks so much for listening. 779 00:35:55,396 --> 00:35:58,156 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this conversation, I reckon then checking out 780 00:35:58,236 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 1: Laurie's podcast, The Happiness Lab. We'll link to it in 781 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:03,836 Speaker 1: the show notes, and we'll be back with a brand 782 00:36:03,876 --> 00:36:17,356 Speaker 1: new season on April first. See you then. A Slight 783 00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:20,716 Speaker 1: Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by 784 00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:24,716 Speaker 1: me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner 785 00:36:24,836 --> 00:36:29,316 Speaker 1: Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our senior 786 00:36:29,356 --> 00:36:34,316 Speaker 1: producer Trisha Bobida, and our engineer Eric o'quang. Louis Scara 787 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:37,676 Speaker 1: wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange 788 00:36:37,676 --> 00:36:40,836 Speaker 1: the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production 789 00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:43,996 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to everyone there, 790 00:36:44,476 --> 00:36:47,756 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 791 00:36:48,316 --> 00:36:50,756 Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 792 00:36:50,796 --> 00:37:12,356 Speaker 1: as doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week.