WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Roberto Calvi 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:17.279 Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.720 know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.520 episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.760 by Devon and Steve, and we're gonna be talking this 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.800 week about another groovy mystery. Groovy. Yeah, it's a really 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.040 groovy mystery. Yeah, it's it's it's fun because it's got like, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:39.960 it's got a whole trail of bodies and stuff. There's 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.400 a lot of things going on. Yeah, there's all kinds 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.720 of cool stuff. So we're gonna be talking about God's 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.640 Banker a k a. Roberto Caality Groovy. Before are go 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:52.640 any further, I want to stop and thank Emily for 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.880 suggesting this particular mystery. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good one. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.280 It's very convolated. If you write up you're Allex. Would 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:05.760 you guys not agree this is a twisted mystery? Yeah, 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.800 uh so call the we're going to Cally was found 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.959 dead in the morning of June eighteenth two in the 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.800 city of London, England. He was hanging from scaffolding underneath 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.640 Blackfriars Bridge, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. Yeah right, 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.039 I did check it out. A street view of it's 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.160 a cool old bridge actually that anyway, the bridge was 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.720 undergoing some renovations and that's why there's scaffolding surrounding it. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:37.880 And he apparently climbed out onto the scaffolding and tied 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:39.759 a rope to it and the other end around round 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.920 his neck and jumped into the water. Um So it 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.039 was not high enough for him to actually dangle in 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.080 the air because the tide was in. The tide was in, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.600 the water was high. Who was dressed in a suit 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.920 and tie at the time they found him, his feet 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.240 were still dangling into Thames, but the tide had gone 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.640 out quite a bit, and so originally he probably would 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.240 have been in up to his waist, if not a 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.639 little higher. They found bricks and pieces of maceres stuffed 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.400 into his jacket, the suit jacket pockets and down his pants. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.640 He had on an Italian passport. But did I mentioned 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.280 that Roberto Acality was Italian? Yeah, yeah, he's actually a 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.040 banker from Milan, City of Milan. Well, by the way, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:18.920 he's called God's Banker because he did a lot of 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.520 dealings with the Vatican. But I'll talk more about that. Yeah, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.240 I know we're gonna go into that a lot. Yeah. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.360 They so they found an Italian passport which identified him 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.640 as Ian Roberto Calvino. Of course that was a fake. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.680 He then traveling and like with three different passports. I 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:35.280 think they were all fake actually, because I think the 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:41.880 Italian government had confiscated his passport. Yeah, but yet. Also 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.440 found in the body was about fourteen thousand dollars in British, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.480 Swiss and Italian currency and a Patech Philippe watch, which 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.359 by one account was worth somewhere in the neighborhood of 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.520 a hundred thousand bucks. He was obviously a pretty well 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.720 off guy. Unfortunately, the the watches stuff running because he 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.760 went in When he went into the water, it immersed, 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.320 but that gave him a clue as to win. The 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.160 hanging actually took place, which was one two in the morning. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.440 But anyway, we can rule out robbery and murder. Um 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.200 that's what this was. Well, we can rule out robbery 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:20.440 or murder for robbery. Yeah, yeah, that's true, but that 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.320 it wasn't murder motivated by robbery. They found his luggage 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.360 back at the hotel where he was staying, all packed 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.640 up and ready to go. The police it did a 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.200 two day investigation and there was an autopsy, of course. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.960 Also the corner ruled that he had died of a 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.040 six c ation because when he hung himself, he obviously 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.200 usually when you hang yourself, you drop far enough fast 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.920 enough that you break your neck. That's the preferred Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.080 but the corner also ruled that the death was a suicide. 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.800 The autopsy didn't find any suspicious marks on the body, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.200 no drugs in his system, no punctures, and his watch 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.160 I said, it stopped at one fifty two in the morning. 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.680 The to for the suicide I was I'm assuming that 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.960 they were assuming was that he had just been sentenced 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.640 to four years in Britain's president in Italy because and 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:13.000 also his bank, the Marco Ambrosiano, had just collapsed, because 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.640 they had a whole lot of missing money, like about 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.000 one point two billion dollars worth. And we're going to 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.800 explain this a little more in a couple of minutes, right, Yeah, okay, 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.760 speak it were lossing over that part. Yeah, that bank collapsed, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.279 the Vatican Bank was missing about half a billion dollars, 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.160 and so he had a lot of planning to do, 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.320 and he was obviously under a tremendous amount of pressure 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.680 and also he had attempted suicide the previous year while 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.360 he was in jail by cutting his wrists and taking barbituates, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.680 so obviously that didn't work. How do you get barbituates 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.800 in jail? Um, I hear it's easy. Actually, yeah, I've 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:48.240 heard of jail. You can get, especially if you're a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.880 rich guy like him, you can get anything you want. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.760 Good point. A lot of people, including his family, didn't 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.560 believe he killed himself, and eventually the verdict almost a 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.320 year later, was reversed to we don't know, so it 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.839 could have been suicide, could have been murder. It was 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:08.320 down grade. It was upgraded to a shrug pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.120 But what's strange about the whole thing is to get 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:11.840 to the scaffolding where he hung himself, he would have 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.840 had to climb over the railing and down uh not 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.560 a ladder which was attached to the sea wall, and 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:19.520 then step across about a two and a half foot 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.120 gap to the scaffolding, and then walk across the scaffolding 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.120 to a certain point where it went down to a 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.120 lower level of scaffolding, and then shinny down, tied the 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.560 rope and then hang himself. This well, having bricks and 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:33.920 stuff in his pockets. Yeah, it stuffed down his pants 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:35.679 and stuff. And I did I mentioned he was sixty 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.719 two years old when he died. Yeah, he was sixty two, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.720 which is ancient. Yeah it's not Yeah, it's not that bad, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.240 but it's still he was not great. Yeah, he wasn't. No, 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.880 he wasn't. Wasn't out there doing park quarters some no, not, Yeah, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:53.839 and that was that was odd. There were no signs 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:55.520 of this in his body. His hands should have had, 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:59.000 like the scaffolding was kind of rusty. It should have had, 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:00.919 so his hands should have had some abrasions and some 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.160 rust stuff. And and maybe shoes did his Did he 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.880 have his shoes on? Yeah, he's wearing his shoes. Yeah, 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:08.839 and they didn't have any Although I guess the shoes. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.640 It doesn't bother me as much since they would have 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.480 been submerged in water, so that stuff could have washed away, 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:15.960 and it could have if the water was high enough 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.680 for his hands, it could have washed it off. The 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:22.279 honking the same thing. Yeah, Yeah, it's possible, but that's 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.240 quite I mean, but actually, but actually we'll be talking 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.840 about that more little later on. Sure. Yeah, I was 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.440 just gonna say it's quite a commitment to killing yourself 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.400 in that very spot, in that very way. It seems 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.000 like there would be easier ways to do it, even 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.559 hanging off the bridge in London. It seems like there'd 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.160 be a lot better places to do it than that. 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.760 It really does. Jumping ahead, Yeah, so let's go back 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.520 in time. A week he left Italy. Just the week before, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.760 he'd been says to four years in stir for violating 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.839 currency laws. And actually what what they arrested for and 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.200 put him on trial for it wasn't a patently unfair 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.280 because he had done some currency some not currency manipulation, 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.320 but some currency transactions, some foreign currency transactions back in 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.760 nineteen seventy one, and the transactions were perfectly legal, but 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.000 in nineteen seventy six the Italian parliament passed a retroactive 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.400 law making it illegal. One he was arrested for for 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.240 breaking a law that didn't even exist in ninety one. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:26.520 That's hard, yeah, it's yeah, yeah it is. And so 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.080 his case was under appeal. He was out on bail 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.720 of course at this time. Is it hadn't completely come 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.640 out when he left the country that Banco Ambrosiano wasn't 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.760 as serious trouble as it was, and had so many 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.200 missing funds and bad debts. But he was aware of it, 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.240 of course. Of course. Yeah, that's another good reason to 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.080 skip the country. Yeah, so he decided that, decided to 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.280 skip out, skip down. And the day he left, his 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.880 assistants saw him filling a black attache case with documents 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.239 from his office safe and that's that same assistant died 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.800 on the day that the bank was taken over by 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:03.920 the Bank of Italy. Yeah, she threw herself out of window, 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.280 didn't She was pushed. I thought she left her note. Yeah, 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.320 she did live it out it was about CALLI. Yes, 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.000 yeah he did, she did, Okay, Yeah, just making sure 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:16.840 I had that part right. Yea written in red ink. 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.080 I don't know if that's signified everything or not. So 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.320 when he left Italy, he had the aid of a 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.280 guy named Flavio Carboni, who's a Sardinian businessman who apparently 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.000 was very well connected. So Kali flew to Venice from 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.080 the Lawn and then traveled by car to tree Esque, Italy, 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.920 which is over by the border with Yugoslavia. He was 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.680 in smuggling into Yugoslavia bought by a boat and then 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.559 traveled by car all the way up to Austria and 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.240 then there and from Austria he flew to London on 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.720 a private jet. So pretty it was a pretty elaborate 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.480 thing that lasted for several days and a lot of 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.640 different modes of transport. I have a quick question, I 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.400 never saw this anywhere. Maybe nobody knows. Do we know 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.040 what his intended final destination was? Is? I mean, he 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.360 couldn't have just intended to keep moving every couple of 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.760 days for ever. He had to have somewhere he was going. 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:10.240 One would have someplace without an extradition deal with Italy. Yeah, 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:11.880 you would think, yeah, that would that would make the 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.800 most sense, which I imagine is nowhere in Europe. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.160 I think the only people that that maybe would have 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.160 known would be Flavio Cormoni, who's the guy who basically 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:27.040 made all the arrangements um and also Carboni also hired 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.360 a cigarette smuggler named Silvano Vittor to be called these bodyguard, 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.000 so or might have also known what the ultimate destination was. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.400 But these guys aren't talking. They're still alive, but they're 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.160 not talking. I guess that could have been. You know, 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.840 if you have a fake passport. You essentially have a 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.280 new identity if you can get to a place that's 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.840 kind of bigger, like London. It's not the worst place 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.480 to try and disappear, although it is the most monitored place, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.800 but kind of there's a lot of a lot of 0:09:53.800 --> 0:10:00.360 people there. But this was in Yeah, wasn't really has 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.199 monitored eighty two. Sure they didn't cameras up on every 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.520 day in London was kind of a dirty little town 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.240 at that time, not the financial hub that it is 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.880 today now. In London, Calvin and Victor checked into a 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.959 residential hotel called the Chelsea Cloisters. Um, of course I 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:21.640 looked at on the street view. And meanwhile Carboni checked 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.839 into it, I believe the Sheridan or the Hilton, some 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.800 much more luxurious hotel. And oh, I forgot to mention 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.080 too that the beginning of this little adventure, Calvin had 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.160 transferred a large amount of money into Carboni's Swiss account 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.760 to cover his expenses because there was a lot involved. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.200 You know, he had pay people to smuggle him, pay 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.600 people to drive him, and you know, bribe officials. It's 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.679 not a cheaper fire private jet. Yeah, so yeah, I 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.600 think the amount was around eleven million, decent amount of money. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.199 That's a lot of money even today. Oh yeah, they 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.360 were throwing back when being a millionaire meant something. If 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.319 I was a millionaire tomorrow, I still wouldn't quit my 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:00.760 day job. Yeah. So they were in London for just 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.400 not very long at all really, But on the June seventeenth, 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.319 about five pm, Carboni phone called and told him that 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.319 he found a flatform to stay in the issue pack 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.480 his bags. Strangely, Carboni went by the hotel later and 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.560 met viitter at the front desk, but didn't go up 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.880 to see Calvy at that time. I don't know why. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.240 Next next to Calvi was seen was about ten pm, 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.640 when the resident of the hotel saw him leaving at 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.560 the back by the back door. So did I say 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:31.120 ten pm? Ten pm with quote two Italian men, but 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.000 he didn't identify them. What I can't understand is why 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.560 if you're the bodyguard, you're not staying in the same place, 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.760 you know what I mean? Yeah, it's really hard to 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.400 some from Well now the vidder that the bodyguard was 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.079 staying at the same place, Carboni was staying at a 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.520 different hotel. Okay, sorry, I got I totally got the 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:56.360 two mixed up. Yeah, yeah, this is confusing little mystery. Yeah, 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.960 it seems likely that the team men were Carboni and Viitter, 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.320 but we're not sure, can't be totally sure. Veder later 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.720 told the police that he left the hotel at seven 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.760 pm to beat Carboni and then he returned at eight 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.720 or one am and Calby was gone. That's what he 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.880 told the police. I'm not sure he should be believed, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.400 but maybe it may be true. Yeah, we'll see. Uh 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:19.920 So at this point, let me digress a little bit. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.079 And of course we know what happened after after that 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.320 he died at so I'll talk. So, I guess we 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.560 need to talk a little bit about how he kind 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.240 of got involved with all this high level financial stuff, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.000 how he became God's banker. He became God's banker, and 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.559 then god knows how many things he was involved in, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.520 but he apparently got involved with some kind of dangerous people. Yeah, 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.920 so I'm going to talk about how he got involved 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.360 in the Vatican's finances. It's just real fast like here, um, 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.280 and I sure, I'm sure you all know this already. 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.959 But in the nineteenth century, the Vaticans properties were all 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.320 confiscated by the government of Italy. Yeah, you need that 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.040 right left, the church was very little in the way 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.520 of income, but they gets some compensation from Medito Mussolini 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.880 in nine he gave them some I think some government 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.400 bonds and a bunch of cash. Do you very one 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.360 that we all know and love from World War two? 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.040 At the very one at the pulp at the time 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.800 was pious the twelve and so he started investing some 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.120 of those funds. And what they did is that they 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:25.960 took out of the fact that their agreement now with 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.439 the state of Italy made them basically a sovereign state. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.280 So to take advantage of that, they hired a banker 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.360 named Bernardino Negara who was supposed to invest their money 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.400 and basically use it to do a bunch of arbitrage 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.400 operations to make money. You know, arbitrage is when you 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.000 when you trade, it's like it's like trading gold and 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.640 silver and stuff, but you're trading money instead. So like say, 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.640 right now, the Canadian dollar is weak, so if I 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.560 buy up a bunch of Canadian money and then said 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.240 I don't wait for wait for the Canadian dollar to 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.800 get stronger, than I sell my Canadian dollars again. I've 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.800 just I've just needed myself a profit. Okay, I'm sure 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.200 we have some financial experts out there. I know what 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.520 you're talking about, but I hadn't been able to connect 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.400 that that term. I don't think I've ever heard it 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.520 used for so he's trading money. Yeah. World War Two, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.240 the Vatican, of course was surrounded by hostile fascists on 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.000 all sides, you know, not to mention there were some 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.040 other there's all kinds of stuff going on, and they 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.760 were worried about the safety of their money. So pious 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.440 the twelfth or the creation of a private bank within 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.840 the Vatican, and this was called to be called the 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.640 Institute for Religious Works and the I r W. Yeah, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.480 and in italian's io RS but but I r W 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.840 in English it so we'll call it what it is 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.320 in Italian. Then. Yeah, prittest named Giovanni Montini was put 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.640 in charge of it at the bank, that is, and 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.240 he oversaw its operations until nineteen sixty three when he 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:54.840 became the sixth So yeah, the Vaticans banker became the Pope. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.160 The pope that only lasted thirty three days. No, that 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.760 was John Paul. Yeah, John Paul. When he I have 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.160 a hard time keeping the pope straight for some reason. Well, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:08.160 and you know Paul John paula yeah, ring, Yeah, that 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:13.600 hasn't been one of those yet yet. Yeah. The the 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.480 actually the death of John Paul is subject. There's a 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.360 lot of conspiracy theories about that. Pretty good. Yeah, we 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.040 should do that sometimes, yeah, I we should do, don't. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:23.800 We don't want to do too many Vaticans stories, so 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.000 not too many in Roman. Yeah, we've done a bunch 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.760 of them. We've got plenty of time to get to them. Yeah. Yeah. 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.000 So the Vatican back was doing all right, but then 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.840 a new Italian law was passed that required foreign investors 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.920 to pay a thirty percent tax on dividends. That's a 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.200 hefty tax. Yeah. Yeah, So the bank decided it was 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.000 it would be a good idea to transfer most of 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.560 his investments to overseas companies. I mean, you know, the 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.440 Vaticans its own country. So yeah, but they were considered. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.000 But but if you have part of Italy, but if 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.600 you have investments that are paying dividends, and the companies 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.280 aren't located actually like in the Vatican, yeah, which none 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.800 of them are. Oh yeah, so they were I'm guessing 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:06.240 they were rather heavily investing in Italian You know, I'm 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.680 not sure exactly what kind of things it wasn't. It 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.320 wasn't strictly Italian now, but I'm just thinking that must 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.200 have been what forced them to decide to shift. Is Wait, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.160 this is coming through and we have a lot of 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.760 money in the country that we're getting returns on, yeah, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.680 and that we're gonna we're gonna sell. Yeah, so we're 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:28.400 to Panama and where sorry, oh, miscellaneous places a Panama, Lichtenstein, looked, Luxembourg, 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.880 all those, yeah, Nicaragua, Peru, all kinds of places. Yeah. Uh. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.640 So what they needed was they needed a bank that 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.280 could set up an anonymous accounts and offshore companies for 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.280 them and then transfer their assets for them. When they 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.240 hired a small private bank called bunk up Vita Finanziata 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.880 I think, yeah, close enough. It was run by a 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.040 guy named michels in Donna, and who, by the way, 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.520 new Roberto Calbi gods banker. Uh and he had actually 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.840 mentored Calibi in the art of creating offshore companies, and 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.520 the relationship when in Sandona and the Vatican Bank went 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.560 well for a while, but eventually he had a banking 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.720 empire that wasn't and I think it was Italy and Switzerland. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.960 He had banks, he had a lot of banks and uh. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.920 But eventually it came under criminal investigation for a number 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.679 of different matters, and so the Vatican decided that he 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.240 was a bit of a liability. And they also didn't 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.920 if the police were investigators were snooping around the bank's records, 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.000 and they didn't really want to have their private dealings known. 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.800 Also another reason to ditch this guy, and so they 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.240 went looking for a replacement. Uh. Paul Marcinkis who was 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:36.840 kind of a player in this. He was a priest 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.399 from America, and he was put in charge of finding 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.320 that replacement, who turned out to be the Banco Ambrosiano 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.080 in Milan. They had already had already had connected it. 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.679 It had been founded by priests, and some of the 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.280 previous chairman had known some of the previous popes and 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.000 such things. So they were yeah, yeah, they were already 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.200 they were yeah yeah. And also the Vatican already owned 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.879 some of his stock. Yeah. Chairman at the time was 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.480 Carlo Kanisi and the general manager manager was Rodberto Calvy. 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.240 A secret arrangement was made for the Vatican to buy 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.640 more stock in the banks so that they could have 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.480 actually a controlling interest in the stock in the ban Yeah. Yeah, 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.400 and then once they had controlling stock, they could put 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.000 whoever they wanted in charge. I'm guessing yeah, or at 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.440 least you have some say over there, you know, the 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.480 bank's operations. That would make sense, especially if you're going 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.520 to invest heavily. Yeah, exactly. And I'm really excus I'm 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.040 really kind of actually like really glossing over a lot 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.040 of stuff. It gets a lot more complicated than this. 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.760 The stuff that these guys were doing, well, they I know. 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.800 One of the things that they were doing that I 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.520 found fascinating and so despicable. Um and I don't remember 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.720 exactly who it was, because again there is so many players. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.920 Was the false deposits. Did either of you guys read 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.280 about those? Where they were they were reporting false deposits 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.000 into accounts and so that they would get the funds 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.440 from that. They'd say, oh, so and so it this 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.480 was depositing money. Now we've got more, and it was 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.480 this weird shuffle of non existent cash that then showed 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.040 up on the books. But they never actually had that 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.160 cash to begin with, so then they had more money 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.920 to spend. It was. It's almost like the guy you 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.119 see on the street with the three solo cups with 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:22.760 the ball under one of them, but he's like, which 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:24.400 one is it really under? Which one is it really here? 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.520 They're just moving it around constantly. That's what it was 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.399 with huge sums of money. Yeah, they were playing all 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.320 kinds of crazy games. Um yeah, I came that came 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.679 back to buy them on the Yeah, real blew up 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.199 in their face, that kind of did uh uh so 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.640 call call. They created a bank subsidiary in the Bahamas 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.399 and set up a bunch of anonymous holding companies under that, 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.720 and which is where the Vatican's money was going to 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.159 go of Courus mar Senkas became president of the Vatican 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:54.960 Bank and also sat on the board of the Bahamas 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.080 subsidiary of the Banco and Brosciano. Things went along pretty 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:00.919 well for a while or a Bartol Calgary brought in 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.560 some good profits for the church. When it's out made, 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.280 everybody was happy. But then Michelle and Siding don't remember him. 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:13.040 He was their previous bankers. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, little memories, 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.800 yeah yeah yeah. He decided to stir up a little trouble. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.000 Apparently he was he was feeling kind of kind of 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.359 upset about being cut out of cut out of the 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.440 Vatican's business. Well, there's probably he probably lost a fair 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.399 about the money. Yeah, to be fair, yeah, uh, he 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.159 demanded ten million bucks from Calby, and Calgary basically said no, 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.160 I'm told him to go pound sand and so yeah, 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.760 so he got his revenge. He on November thirteenth, nineteen 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.840 seventy seven, posters were plastered on buildings all around the 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.840 Bonco and Brosiano which included numbers of secrets with accounts 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.480 that had been used for the deal, whereby the Vatican 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.480 netted that extra stock that put them in basically in 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.400 control of Marco and Brosiano. And there was a lot 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.119 of other stuff on these posters also. He also he 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.439 also sent a letter to the Bank of Italy with 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.040 details of these transactions. Uh. And the Bank of Italy, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:05.480 by the way, it was not a private bank. It 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.520 was Italy's central bank, kind of like our federal reserve. 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.520 I was gonna say, yeah, what's our equivalent that makes sense? Yeah, Yeah, 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.480 they started an investigation into this. Um is not a 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.320 good thing, not a good thing on your bank. Now, 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.119 a guy named Mario Sarsinelli the Bank of Italy was 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.000