Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't
Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always
Speaker 1: by Devon and Steve, and we're gonna be talking this
Speaker 1: week about another groovy mystery. Groovy. Yeah, it's a really
Speaker 1: groovy mystery. Yeah, it's it's it's fun because it's got like,
Speaker 1: it's got a whole trail of bodies and stuff. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of things going on. Yeah, there's all kinds
Speaker 1: of cool stuff. So we're gonna be talking about God's
Speaker 1: Banker a k a. Roberto Caality Groovy. Before are go
Speaker 1: any further, I want to stop and thank Emily for
Speaker 1: suggesting this particular mystery. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good one.
Speaker 1: It's very convolated. If you write up you're Allex. Would
Speaker 1: you guys not agree this is a twisted mystery? Yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so call the we're going to Cally was found
Speaker 1: dead in the morning of June eighteenth two in the
Speaker 1: city of London, England. He was hanging from scaffolding underneath
Speaker 1: Blackfriars Bridge, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: I did check it out. A street view of it's
Speaker 1: a cool old bridge actually that anyway, the bridge was
Speaker 1: undergoing some renovations and that's why there's scaffolding surrounding it.
Speaker 1: And he apparently climbed out onto the scaffolding and tied
Speaker 1: a rope to it and the other end around round
Speaker 1: his neck and jumped into the water. Um So it
Speaker 1: was not high enough for him to actually dangle in
Speaker 1: the air because the tide was in. The tide was in,
Speaker 1: the water was high. Who was dressed in a suit
Speaker 1: and tie at the time they found him, his feet
Speaker 1: were still dangling into Thames, but the tide had gone
Speaker 1: out quite a bit, and so originally he probably would
Speaker 1: have been in up to his waist, if not a
Speaker 1: little higher. They found bricks and pieces of maceres stuffed
Speaker 1: into his jacket, the suit jacket pockets and down his pants.
Speaker 1: He had on an Italian passport. But did I mentioned
Speaker 1: that Roberto Acality was Italian? Yeah, yeah, he's actually a
Speaker 1: banker from Milan, City of Milan. Well, by the way,
Speaker 1: he's called God's Banker because he did a lot of
Speaker 1: dealings with the Vatican. But I'll talk more about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know we're gonna go into that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They so they found an Italian passport which identified him
Speaker 1: as Ian Roberto Calvino. Of course that was a fake.
Speaker 1: He then traveling and like with three different passports. I
Speaker 1: think they were all fake actually, because I think the
Speaker 1: Italian government had confiscated his passport. Yeah, but yet. Also
Speaker 1: found in the body was about fourteen thousand dollars in British,
Speaker 1: Swiss and Italian currency and a Patech Philippe watch, which
Speaker 1: by one account was worth somewhere in the neighborhood of
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand bucks. He was obviously a pretty well
Speaker 1: off guy. Unfortunately, the the watches stuff running because he
Speaker 1: went in When he went into the water, it immersed,
Speaker 1: but that gave him a clue as to win. The
Speaker 1: hanging actually took place, which was one two in the morning.
Speaker 1: But anyway, we can rule out robbery and murder. Um
Speaker 1: that's what this was. Well, we can rule out robbery
Speaker 1: or murder for robbery. Yeah, yeah, that's true, but that
Speaker 1: it wasn't murder motivated by robbery. They found his luggage
Speaker 1: back at the hotel where he was staying, all packed
Speaker 1: up and ready to go. The police it did a
Speaker 1: two day investigation and there was an autopsy, of course.
Speaker 1: Also the corner ruled that he had died of a
Speaker 1: six c ation because when he hung himself, he obviously
Speaker 1: usually when you hang yourself, you drop far enough fast
Speaker 1: enough that you break your neck. That's the preferred Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the corner also ruled that the death was a suicide.
Speaker 1: The autopsy didn't find any suspicious marks on the body,
Speaker 1: no drugs in his system, no punctures, and his watch
Speaker 1: I said, it stopped at one fifty two in the morning.
Speaker 1: The to for the suicide I was I'm assuming that
Speaker 1: they were assuming was that he had just been sentenced
Speaker 1: to four years in Britain's president in Italy because and
Speaker 1: also his bank, the Marco Ambrosiano, had just collapsed, because
Speaker 1: they had a whole lot of missing money, like about
Speaker 1: one point two billion dollars worth. And we're going to
Speaker 1: explain this a little more in a couple of minutes, right, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: speak it were lossing over that part. Yeah, that bank collapsed,
Speaker 1: the Vatican Bank was missing about half a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: and so he had a lot of planning to do,
Speaker 1: and he was obviously under a tremendous amount of pressure
Speaker 1: and also he had attempted suicide the previous year while
Speaker 1: he was in jail by cutting his wrists and taking barbituates,
Speaker 1: so obviously that didn't work. How do you get barbituates
Speaker 1: in jail? Um, I hear it's easy. Actually, yeah, I've
Speaker 1: heard of jail. You can get, especially if you're a
Speaker 1: rich guy like him, you can get anything you want.
Speaker 1: Good point. A lot of people, including his family, didn't
Speaker 1: believe he killed himself, and eventually the verdict almost a
Speaker 1: year later, was reversed to we don't know, so it
Speaker 1: could have been suicide, could have been murder. It was
Speaker 1: down grade. It was upgraded to a shrug pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But what's strange about the whole thing is to get
Speaker 1: to the scaffolding where he hung himself, he would have
Speaker 1: had to climb over the railing and down uh not
Speaker 1: a ladder which was attached to the sea wall, and
Speaker 1: then step across about a two and a half foot
Speaker 1: gap to the scaffolding, and then walk across the scaffolding
Speaker 1: to a certain point where it went down to a
Speaker 1: lower level of scaffolding, and then shinny down, tied the
Speaker 1: rope and then hang himself. This well, having bricks and
Speaker 1: stuff in his pockets. Yeah, it stuffed down his pants
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I did I mentioned he was sixty
Speaker 1: two years old when he died. Yeah, he was sixty two,
Speaker 1: which is ancient. Yeah it's not Yeah, it's not that bad,
Speaker 1: but it's still he was not great. Yeah, he wasn't. No,
Speaker 1: he wasn't. Wasn't out there doing park quarters some no, not, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that was that was odd. There were no signs
Speaker 1: of this in his body. His hands should have had,
Speaker 1: like the scaffolding was kind of rusty. It should have had,
Speaker 1: so his hands should have had some abrasions and some
Speaker 1: rust stuff. And and maybe shoes did his Did he
Speaker 1: have his shoes on? Yeah, he's wearing his shoes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they didn't have any Although I guess the shoes.
Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me as much since they would have
Speaker 1: been submerged in water, so that stuff could have washed away,
Speaker 1: and it could have if the water was high enough
Speaker 1: for his hands, it could have washed it off. The
Speaker 1: honking the same thing. Yeah, Yeah, it's possible, but that's
Speaker 1: quite I mean, but actually, but actually we'll be talking
Speaker 1: about that more little later on. Sure. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: just gonna say it's quite a commitment to killing yourself
Speaker 1: in that very spot, in that very way. It seems
Speaker 1: like there would be easier ways to do it, even
Speaker 1: hanging off the bridge in London. It seems like there'd
Speaker 1: be a lot better places to do it than that.
Speaker 1: It really does. Jumping ahead, Yeah, so let's go back
Speaker 1: in time. A week he left Italy. Just the week before,
Speaker 1: he'd been says to four years in stir for violating
Speaker 1: currency laws. And actually what what they arrested for and
Speaker 1: put him on trial for it wasn't a patently unfair
Speaker 1: because he had done some currency some not currency manipulation,
Speaker 1: but some currency transactions, some foreign currency transactions back in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, and the transactions were perfectly legal, but
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six the Italian parliament passed a retroactive
Speaker 1: law making it illegal. One he was arrested for for
Speaker 1: breaking a law that didn't even exist in ninety one.
Speaker 1: That's hard, yeah, it's yeah, yeah it is. And so
Speaker 1: his case was under appeal. He was out on bail
Speaker 1: of course at this time. Is it hadn't completely come
Speaker 1: out when he left the country that Banco Ambrosiano wasn't
Speaker 1: as serious trouble as it was, and had so many
Speaker 1: missing funds and bad debts. But he was aware of it,
Speaker 1: of course. Of course. Yeah, that's another good reason to
Speaker 1: skip the country. Yeah, so he decided that, decided to
Speaker 1: skip out, skip down. And the day he left, his
Speaker 1: assistants saw him filling a black attache case with documents
Speaker 1: from his office safe and that's that same assistant died
Speaker 1: on the day that the bank was taken over by
Speaker 1: the Bank of Italy. Yeah, she threw herself out of window,
Speaker 1: didn't She was pushed. I thought she left her note. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she did live it out it was about CALLI. Yes,
Speaker 1: yeah he did, she did, Okay, Yeah, just making sure
Speaker 1: I had that part right. Yea written in red ink.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's signified everything or not. So
Speaker 1: when he left Italy, he had the aid of a
Speaker 1: guy named Flavio Carboni, who's a Sardinian businessman who apparently
Speaker 1: was very well connected. So Kali flew to Venice from
Speaker 1: the Lawn and then traveled by car to tree Esque, Italy,
Speaker 1: which is over by the border with Yugoslavia. He was
Speaker 1: in smuggling into Yugoslavia bought by a boat and then
Speaker 1: traveled by car all the way up to Austria and
Speaker 1: then there and from Austria he flew to London on
Speaker 1: a private jet. So pretty it was a pretty elaborate
Speaker 1: thing that lasted for several days and a lot of
Speaker 1: different modes of transport. I have a quick question, I
Speaker 1: never saw this anywhere. Maybe nobody knows. Do we know
Speaker 1: what his intended final destination was? Is? I mean, he
Speaker 1: couldn't have just intended to keep moving every couple of
Speaker 1: days for ever. He had to have somewhere he was going.
Speaker 1: One would have someplace without an extradition deal with Italy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would think, yeah, that would that would make the
Speaker 1: most sense, which I imagine is nowhere in Europe. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the only people that that maybe would have
Speaker 1: known would be Flavio Cormoni, who's the guy who basically
Speaker 1: made all the arrangements um and also Carboni also hired
Speaker 1: a cigarette smuggler named Silvano Vittor to be called these bodyguard,
Speaker 1: so or might have also known what the ultimate destination was.
Speaker 1: But these guys aren't talking. They're still alive, but they're
Speaker 1: not talking. I guess that could have been. You know,
Speaker 1: if you have a fake passport. You essentially have a
Speaker 1: new identity if you can get to a place that's
Speaker 1: kind of bigger, like London. It's not the worst place
Speaker 1: to try and disappear, although it is the most monitored place,
Speaker 1: but kind of there's a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: people there. But this was in Yeah, wasn't really has
Speaker 1: monitored eighty two. Sure they didn't cameras up on every
Speaker 1: day in London was kind of a dirty little town
Speaker 1: at that time, not the financial hub that it is
Speaker 1: today now. In London, Calvin and Victor checked into a
Speaker 1: residential hotel called the Chelsea Cloisters. Um, of course I
Speaker 1: looked at on the street view. And meanwhile Carboni checked
Speaker 1: into it, I believe the Sheridan or the Hilton, some
Speaker 1: much more luxurious hotel. And oh, I forgot to mention
Speaker 1: too that the beginning of this little adventure, Calvin had
Speaker 1: transferred a large amount of money into Carboni's Swiss account
Speaker 1: to cover his expenses because there was a lot involved.
Speaker 1: You know, he had pay people to smuggle him, pay
Speaker 1: people to drive him, and you know, bribe officials. It's
Speaker 1: not a cheaper fire private jet. Yeah, so yeah, I
Speaker 1: think the amount was around eleven million, decent amount of money.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of money even today. Oh yeah, they
Speaker 1: were throwing back when being a millionaire meant something. If
Speaker 1: I was a millionaire tomorrow, I still wouldn't quit my
Speaker 1: day job. Yeah. So they were in London for just
Speaker 1: not very long at all really, But on the June seventeenth,
Speaker 1: about five pm, Carboni phone called and told him that
Speaker 1: he found a flatform to stay in the issue pack
Speaker 1: his bags. Strangely, Carboni went by the hotel later and
Speaker 1: met viitter at the front desk, but didn't go up
Speaker 1: to see Calvy at that time. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: Next next to Calvi was seen was about ten pm,
Speaker 1: when the resident of the hotel saw him leaving at
Speaker 1: the back by the back door. So did I say
Speaker 1: ten pm? Ten pm with quote two Italian men, but
Speaker 1: he didn't identify them. What I can't understand is why
Speaker 1: if you're the bodyguard, you're not staying in the same place,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, it's really hard to
Speaker 1: some from Well now the vidder that the bodyguard was
Speaker 1: staying at the same place, Carboni was staying at a
Speaker 1: different hotel. Okay, sorry, I got I totally got the
Speaker 1: two mixed up. Yeah, yeah, this is confusing little mystery. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems likely that the team men were Carboni and Viitter,
Speaker 1: but we're not sure, can't be totally sure. Veder later
Speaker 1: told the police that he left the hotel at seven
Speaker 1: pm to beat Carboni and then he returned at eight
Speaker 1: or one am and Calby was gone. That's what he
Speaker 1: told the police. I'm not sure he should be believed,
Speaker 1: but maybe it may be true. Yeah, we'll see. Uh
Speaker 1: So at this point, let me digress a little bit.
Speaker 1: And of course we know what happened after after that
Speaker 1: he died at so I'll talk. So, I guess we
Speaker 1: need to talk a little bit about how he kind
Speaker 1: of got involved with all this high level financial stuff,
Speaker 1: how he became God's banker. He became God's banker, and
Speaker 1: then god knows how many things he was involved in,
Speaker 1: but he apparently got involved with some kind of dangerous people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to talk about how he got involved
Speaker 1: in the Vatican's finances. It's just real fast like here, um,
Speaker 1: and I sure, I'm sure you all know this already.
Speaker 1: But in the nineteenth century, the Vaticans properties were all
Speaker 1: confiscated by the government of Italy. Yeah, you need that
Speaker 1: right left, the church was very little in the way
Speaker 1: of income, but they gets some compensation from Medito Mussolini
Speaker 1: in nine he gave them some I think some government
Speaker 1: bonds and a bunch of cash. Do you very one
Speaker 1: that we all know and love from World War two?
Speaker 1: At the very one at the pulp at the time
Speaker 1: was pious the twelve and so he started investing some
Speaker 1: of those funds. And what they did is that they
Speaker 1: took out of the fact that their agreement now with
Speaker 1: the state of Italy made them basically a sovereign state.
Speaker 1: So to take advantage of that, they hired a banker
Speaker 1: named Bernardino Negara who was supposed to invest their money
Speaker 1: and basically use it to do a bunch of arbitrage
Speaker 1: operations to make money. You know, arbitrage is when you
Speaker 1: when you trade, it's like it's like trading gold and
Speaker 1: silver and stuff, but you're trading money instead. So like say,
Speaker 1: right now, the Canadian dollar is weak, so if I
Speaker 1: buy up a bunch of Canadian money and then said
Speaker 1: I don't wait for wait for the Canadian dollar to
Speaker 1: get stronger, than I sell my Canadian dollars again. I've
Speaker 1: just I've just needed myself a profit. Okay, I'm sure
Speaker 1: we have some financial experts out there. I know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about, but I hadn't been able to connect
Speaker 1: that that term. I don't think I've ever heard it
Speaker 1: used for so he's trading money. Yeah. World War Two,
Speaker 1: the Vatican, of course was surrounded by hostile fascists on
Speaker 1: all sides, you know, not to mention there were some
Speaker 1: other there's all kinds of stuff going on, and they
Speaker 1: were worried about the safety of their money. So pious
Speaker 1: the twelfth or the creation of a private bank within
Speaker 1: the Vatican, and this was called to be called the
Speaker 1: Institute for Religious Works and the I r W. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and in italian's io RS but but I r W
Speaker 1: in English it so we'll call it what it is
Speaker 1: in Italian. Then. Yeah, prittest named Giovanni Montini was put
Speaker 1: in charge of it at the bank, that is, and
Speaker 1: he oversaw its operations until nineteen sixty three when he
Speaker 1: became the sixth So yeah, the Vaticans banker became the Pope.
Speaker 1: The pope that only lasted thirty three days. No, that
Speaker 1: was John Paul. Yeah, John Paul. When he I have
Speaker 1: a hard time keeping the pope straight for some reason. Well,
Speaker 1: and you know Paul John paula yeah, ring, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: hasn't been one of those yet yet. Yeah. The the
Speaker 1: actually the death of John Paul is subject. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of conspiracy theories about that. Pretty good. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: should do that sometimes, yeah, I we should do, don't.
Speaker 1: We don't want to do too many Vaticans stories, so
Speaker 1: not too many in Roman. Yeah, we've done a bunch
Speaker 1: of them. We've got plenty of time to get to them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the Vatican back was doing all right, but then
Speaker 1: a new Italian law was passed that required foreign investors
Speaker 1: to pay a thirty percent tax on dividends. That's a
Speaker 1: hefty tax. Yeah. Yeah, So the bank decided it was
Speaker 1: it would be a good idea to transfer most of
Speaker 1: his investments to overseas companies. I mean, you know, the
Speaker 1: Vaticans its own country. So yeah, but they were considered.
Speaker 1: But but if you have part of Italy, but if
Speaker 1: you have investments that are paying dividends, and the companies
Speaker 1: aren't located actually like in the Vatican, yeah, which none
Speaker 1: of them are. Oh yeah, so they were I'm guessing
Speaker 1: they were rather heavily investing in Italian You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure exactly what kind of things it wasn't. It
Speaker 1: wasn't strictly Italian now, but I'm just thinking that must
Speaker 1: have been what forced them to decide to shift. Is Wait,
Speaker 1: this is coming through and we have a lot of
Speaker 1: money in the country that we're getting returns on, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that we're gonna we're gonna sell. Yeah, so we're
Speaker 1: to Panama and where sorry, oh, miscellaneous places a Panama, Lichtenstein, looked, Luxembourg,
Speaker 1: all those, yeah, Nicaragua, Peru, all kinds of places. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: So what they needed was they needed a bank that
Speaker 1: could set up an anonymous accounts and offshore companies for
Speaker 1: them and then transfer their assets for them. When they
Speaker 1: hired a small private bank called bunk up Vita Finanziata
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, close enough. It was run by a
Speaker 1: guy named michels in Donna, and who, by the way,
Speaker 1: new Roberto Calbi gods banker. Uh and he had actually
Speaker 1: mentored Calibi in the art of creating offshore companies, and
Speaker 1: the relationship when in Sandona and the Vatican Bank went
Speaker 1: well for a while, but eventually he had a banking
Speaker 1: empire that wasn't and I think it was Italy and Switzerland.
Speaker 1: He had banks, he had a lot of banks and uh.
Speaker 1: But eventually it came under criminal investigation for a number
Speaker 1: of different matters, and so the Vatican decided that he
Speaker 1: was a bit of a liability. And they also didn't
Speaker 1: if the police were investigators were snooping around the bank's records,
Speaker 1: and they didn't really want to have their private dealings known.
Speaker 1: Also another reason to ditch this guy, and so they
Speaker 1: went looking for a replacement. Uh. Paul Marcinkis who was
Speaker 1: kind of a player in this. He was a priest
Speaker 1: from America, and he was put in charge of finding
Speaker 1: that replacement, who turned out to be the Banco Ambrosiano
Speaker 1: in Milan. They had already had already had connected it.
Speaker 1: It had been founded by priests, and some of the
Speaker 1: previous chairman had known some of the previous popes and
Speaker 1: such things. So they were yeah, yeah, they were already
Speaker 1: they were yeah yeah. And also the Vatican already owned
Speaker 1: some of his stock. Yeah. Chairman at the time was
Speaker 1: Carlo Kanisi and the general manager manager was Rodberto Calvy.
Speaker 1: A secret arrangement was made for the Vatican to buy
Speaker 1: more stock in the banks so that they could have
Speaker 1: actually a controlling interest in the stock in the ban Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then once they had controlling stock, they could put
Speaker 1: whoever they wanted in charge. I'm guessing yeah, or at
Speaker 1: least you have some say over there, you know, the
Speaker 1: bank's operations. That would make sense, especially if you're going
Speaker 1: to invest heavily. Yeah, exactly. And I'm really excus I'm
Speaker 1: really kind of actually like really glossing over a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff. It gets a lot more complicated than this.
Speaker 1: The stuff that these guys were doing, well, they I know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that they were doing that I
Speaker 1: found fascinating and so despicable. Um and I don't remember
Speaker 1: exactly who it was, because again there is so many players.
Speaker 1: Was the false deposits. Did either of you guys read
Speaker 1: about those? Where they were they were reporting false deposits
Speaker 1: into accounts and so that they would get the funds
Speaker 1: from that. They'd say, oh, so and so it this
Speaker 1: was depositing money. Now we've got more, and it was
Speaker 1: this weird shuffle of non existent cash that then showed
Speaker 1: up on the books. But they never actually had that
Speaker 1: cash to begin with, so then they had more money
Speaker 1: to spend. It was. It's almost like the guy you
Speaker 1: see on the street with the three solo cups with
Speaker 1: the ball under one of them, but he's like, which
Speaker 1: one is it really under? Which one is it really here?
Speaker 1: They're just moving it around constantly. That's what it was
Speaker 1: with huge sums of money. Yeah, they were playing all
Speaker 1: kinds of crazy games. Um yeah, I came that came
Speaker 1: back to buy them on the Yeah, real blew up
Speaker 1: in their face, that kind of did uh uh so
Speaker 1: call call. They created a bank subsidiary in the Bahamas
Speaker 1: and set up a bunch of anonymous holding companies under that,
Speaker 1: and which is where the Vatican's money was going to
Speaker 1: go of Courus mar Senkas became president of the Vatican
Speaker 1: Bank and also sat on the board of the Bahamas
Speaker 1: subsidiary of the Banco and Brosciano. Things went along pretty
Speaker 1: well for a while or a Bartol Calgary brought in
Speaker 1: some good profits for the church. When it's out made,
Speaker 1: everybody was happy. But then Michelle and Siding don't remember him.
Speaker 1: He was their previous bankers. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, little memories,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. He decided to stir up a little trouble.
Speaker 1: Apparently he was he was feeling kind of kind of
Speaker 1: upset about being cut out of cut out of the
Speaker 1: Vatican's business. Well, there's probably he probably lost a fair
Speaker 1: about the money. Yeah, to be fair, yeah, uh, he
Speaker 1: demanded ten million bucks from Calby, and Calgary basically said no,
Speaker 1: I'm told him to go pound sand and so yeah,
Speaker 1: so he got his revenge. He on November thirteenth, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy seven, posters were plastered on buildings all around the
Speaker 1: Bonco and Brosiano which included numbers of secrets with accounts
Speaker 1: that had been used for the deal, whereby the Vatican
Speaker 1: netted that extra stock that put them in basically in
Speaker 1: control of Marco and Brosiano. And there was a lot
Speaker 1: of other stuff on these posters also. He also he
Speaker 1: also sent a letter to the Bank of Italy with
Speaker 1: details of these transactions. Uh. And the Bank of Italy,
Speaker 1: by the way, it was not a private bank. It
Speaker 1: was Italy's central bank, kind of like our federal reserve.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, yeah, what's our equivalent that makes sense? Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they started an investigation into this. Um is not a
Speaker 1: good thing, not a good thing on your bank. Now,
Speaker 1: a guy named Mario Sarsinelli the Bank of Italy was
Speaker 1: the guy who was put in charge of looking into
Speaker 1: Banko and Brociano's finances. One day, the police arrived at
Speaker 1: the bank's headquarters and arrested him. And yeah, he was.
Speaker 1: He was taken away. I locked up in prison for
Speaker 1: ten days, uh and then at at at which point
Speaker 1: he was released on the condition that he leave his
Speaker 1: job at the Bank of Italy, and that pretty much
Speaker 1: was was it for the investigation? Wait a second, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the major the major central bank, gets the police involved,
Speaker 1: they arrest him, they put him in jail for ten days,
Speaker 1: find out who knows what, if anything, and then just says,
Speaker 1: quit your job, and it's all good. Quit your job
Speaker 1: and we'll let you go. Something smells fishy, and that's
Speaker 1: going to say that's conspiracy theory Podder. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean if you if you look at this whole mystery,
Speaker 1: it's obvious that. I mean, there's a whole lot of
Speaker 1: stuff like this going on. There's a there's another one
Speaker 1: I'm to talk about here in just a minute, so
Speaker 1: I'll talk about it now. Uh. Or speaking of Sindona, well,
Speaker 1: some of his banks had failed, never being liquidated and
Speaker 1: a liquid A guy who was placed in charge of
Speaker 1: liquidating them was named Mario Ambrosli, and he found evidence
Speaker 1: in Sindora and Sindona's records that documented a possibly illegal
Speaker 1: transfer of six and a half million dollars to quote,
Speaker 1: an American bishop and a Milanese banker. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: would be who guess who, Paul Marcinkus from the Vatican
Speaker 1: and Roberto Calviy Right. So yeah, and the six point
Speaker 1: five million was part of the deal that netted the
Speaker 1: Vatican that extra chunk of Banco. Ambrosiano stuck word leaked
Speaker 1: out to the press. Uh. Mario amro slowly's investigation didn't
Speaker 1: go very far because he was shot dead in front
Speaker 1: of his house not long after that point. So yeah,
Speaker 1: another body, wasn't he and also a police investigator or
Speaker 1: a reporter, I can't remember which one or another. So
Speaker 1: he and somebody else both got shot at the same
Speaker 1: time and turned out they were contracted, isn't that right?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure to sound familiar to you, I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: because I am pretty sure that I remember that. One
Speaker 1: of the things that is Sindona is that I think
Speaker 1: that and I might be getting this wrong, but I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that got him put away
Speaker 1: was contracting those two killings because he was trying to
Speaker 1: hide what was going on. Could very well be yeah
Speaker 1: that that Apparently it worked, although eventually the lot caught
Speaker 1: up with Sidona. Yeah, he got the US Feds busted him, didn't. Hey,
Speaker 1: you got in trouble in America. I want him going
Speaker 1: to prison in America for a while, yes, and Dona,
Speaker 1: he did as you said, go to prison in the
Speaker 1: US and he was later extradited to Italy where he
Speaker 1: did a little time in prison. And uh in nineteen
Speaker 1: six he was in prison in Rome and he drank
Speaker 1: some coffee that turned out to have some cyanide in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. Ye too long you had another dead body
Speaker 1: that the death was ruled a suicide. That seems wrong, Yeah, suspicious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know, if if they can get barbituates in prison,
Speaker 1: why can't they get Sandy. Yeah? Absolutely, Okay, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense to me either way. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I know. So let's see. I don't think we're gonna
Speaker 1: have another dead body for a little bit here. So yeah,
Speaker 1: if you if you want to take a break and
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom and feel free, Yeah, well, there's
Speaker 1: a lot more we can talk about about the whole
Speaker 1: all the financials living maybe that's not there. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: not it's really confusing. It would take a long time,
Speaker 1: I think as a team would be describing this lightly.
Speaker 1: I kind of want to go into it, Okay three
Speaker 1: hours later. Yeah, and it's not even about the unsolved
Speaker 1: part of this mystery inside deals and loopholes, and of
Speaker 1: course that's a lot of it. We don't know a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. Besides the
Speaker 1: missing funds, there have also been claims that Calbi was
Speaker 1: laundering funds from the mafia and perhaps even running investments
Speaker 1: for them. Uh. There are also theories out there about
Speaker 1: a secret Masonic lodge called Propaganda. Is that do a
Speaker 1: in Italian? It's basically Propagantitudes and Propaganda du A, also
Speaker 1: known as P two. Um. He did have dealings with
Speaker 1: P two but I'll talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: that later. There have been claims that the founder or
Speaker 1: the leader of Propaganda to had it was part of
Speaker 1: the conspiracy to murder of Calvie. I don't know about
Speaker 1: the evidence for that. There's also some evidence that all
Speaker 1: he was involved in funneling money from the Vatican too.
Speaker 1: Solidarity in Poland, believe it or not, Solidarity was a
Speaker 1: political movement. They were. Yeah, they were a labor union. Yeah,
Speaker 1: labor union that became a political movement, the first labor
Speaker 1: union that wasn't controlled by a communist government. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: they yeah, and they they managed to actually overturn because
Speaker 1: they had I think in their first year they went
Speaker 1: from nobody to ten million members or something like huge
Speaker 1: from start date to just before their anniversary date. It's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's quite an amazing story. But that's not
Speaker 1: a mystery, so we're not going to talk about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So okay, now that we've talked all about all about
Speaker 1: his financial dealings with the Vatican, one would assume that
Speaker 1: he had a life insurance policy. If he did. He did,
Speaker 1: quite that's a quite good guess. He had policy worth
Speaker 1: about ten million bucks. He was Yeah, of course the
Speaker 1: insurance company because well it was a suicide. It was
Speaker 1: a suicide, they wouldn't pay. And then it was later
Speaker 1: ruled maybe a suicide. They still wouldn't pay because hey,
Speaker 1: we don't know, huh. And so yeah, they probably claimed
Speaker 1: like having a life as a pre existing condition. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, being alive as a pre existing condition.
Speaker 1: So when you die like that, there's nothing we could
Speaker 1: do about it. Can't die anyway, Sorry, guys, We'll just
Speaker 1: have to keep them premiums. But Calby's wife and his
Speaker 1: son Carlo hired a private detective agency called Coroll Associates
Speaker 1: to investigate the case. And actually there was a guy
Speaker 1: named Jeffrey Katz who headed the investigation, and he wrote
Speaker 1: an interesting article about it in the Telegraph of London
Speaker 1: some years in the early two thousands. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you saw that article or not. I think I did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good article, but well worth reading. Uh. They decided that
Speaker 1: they were they were going through all kinds of records
Speaker 1: and everything. But they decided also to recreate the suicide.
Speaker 1: So they tracked down the contracting company that originally put
Speaker 1: up the scaffolding and didn't work on the bridge, and
Speaker 1: they still had the scaffolding, the very same scaffolding as before.
Speaker 1: You don't just throw that stuff away. It's expensive, yeah,
Speaker 1: So they graciously loaned it to Jeffrey Cats and his
Speaker 1: and his team and they set it up underneath the
Speaker 1: bridge just like it had been set up in nineteen two.
Speaker 1: And that's by the way, it was in when this
Speaker 1: that when they hired this when when they finally did
Speaker 1: the recreation. Uh, Kelvie's shoes were custom made, and he
Speaker 1: had them made several pairs of their time. Of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: as he would. So his white still had a few
Speaker 1: extra pairs of these exact same shoes laying around, so
Speaker 1: she gave them the cats. They hired a stunt man
Speaker 1: who was about his height and size and weight cats. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was about his height and had his way. He
Speaker 1: put out a suit and tie and put on Kelvie's
Speaker 1: shoes and climbed out over the scaffolding, just like Calvin
Speaker 1: would have done. Did they did they stuff a bunch
Speaker 1: of masonry and he pants. Yeah, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know about that. Safety reasons probably not. Yeah, it seems
Speaker 1: like it's important though, well the way it was be
Speaker 1: the way it would be kind of important. I mean
Speaker 1: it might he didn't mention what they did there. They
Speaker 1: might have added some extra weight. I mean there's ways
Speaker 1: without doing something that's comesome as bricks something. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: there's other ways to add weight besides that, or you
Speaker 1: could just pick a stunt man who you know weighs
Speaker 1: a bit more. Anyway, after after this guy went out
Speaker 1: there and he actually walked out all all kinds of
Speaker 1: different paths pathways on the on the scaffolding, because Calby
Speaker 1: obviously could have taken different path pathways. And then they
Speaker 1: took the shoes and they immersed in the water for
Speaker 1: a while. Whatever. So if he went into the water
Speaker 1: at almost two two am and then he was found
Speaker 1: at seven thirty am, but then of course it took
Speaker 1: a while for the London River Police to get there
Speaker 1: and cut the body down. So probably good eight hours? Yeah,
Speaker 1: good eight hours in the water. And so uh, they
Speaker 1: immersed the shoes and water for a similar period of time,
Speaker 1: then remove them, dried them out, uh, and then put
Speaker 1: them into a microscope and what they found is specks
Speaker 1: of rust and paint for the scalfol did they okay?
Speaker 1: But I guess here's my next question. Was it moving
Speaker 1: water that they immersed it in or was it standing
Speaker 1: standing water? Because it would if it were standing water,
Speaker 1: it would make more sense that the flex would be
Speaker 1: left on. But if it was running water, running rushing
Speaker 1: past I would think it would be less likely. Um question,
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure how swiftly that the Thames moves,
Speaker 1: but even a little moving. First, Yeah, that's true. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they immersed it in any sort of floor,
Speaker 1: you know, I probably just dead water. But something I
Speaker 1: forgot to mention is that after they dried the shoes off,
Speaker 1: they took a wire brush to the soles and actually
Speaker 1: brushed them off pretty good. So you yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm saying all this staunchly believing that he didn't kill
Speaker 1: himself anyway, So it's not Yeah, I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: The the other thing that we could ask is and
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because I also don't believe that he
Speaker 1: did it is okay, Well, if the stuntman is taken
Speaker 1: different paths, was he putting on a different pair of
Speaker 1: shoes every time? That's the same pair of shoes walking
Speaker 1: a path five times, You're gonna show much more than
Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. It only doesn't want Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's and that's true enough. But but there's gonna be
Speaker 1: other It's not like called what's his name called thank
Speaker 1: you put on a brand new pair of shoes to
Speaker 1: go kill himself. Know, But what I mean is that
Speaker 1: if the stunt man takes root. One sees how that works. No,
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I'm I just there would
Speaker 1: have been other stuff on. Yeah, and I would have
Speaker 1: been rocks and dirt and assphalt in the whole nine yards. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not really sure if when they did this,
Speaker 1: if they had him go out one way and then
Speaker 1: they and then they immersed the shoes and then they
Speaker 1: dried them out and looked at him, and they hadn't
Speaker 1: go out another way. That would have taken forever to
Speaker 1: do that. But even the fact that they found any
Speaker 1: even after a wire brushing, that's they found. They found
Speaker 1: rust and paint flex and of course the police still
Speaker 1: had still had the original shoes in their possession and
Speaker 1: they had a look at those and they found nothing.
Speaker 1: They found no rust, no paint. So how did you
Speaker 1: get there? Then? So how did you get to onto
Speaker 1: the scaffolding? Well, how did he get to where he died?
Speaker 1: How did he get to where he died? Yes, if
Speaker 1: he didn't go over the scaffolding in the bridge, then
Speaker 1: well the popular thinking is that he was brought there
Speaker 1: by a boat, right because the tide was out, The
Speaker 1: tide was kind of the tide was not quite the
Speaker 1: tide was not high tide when he went in. The
Speaker 1: tide was pretty close to low when they found him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it was much higher when he would have gone in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was higher when he would have gone in. Yes,
Speaker 1: so it could have been Yeah, pretty easy to bring
Speaker 1: him rope over a piece of scaffolding. Yeah, from a boat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he was probably brought to that point on a boat.
Speaker 1: He was probably already dead. Strangled him on the boat,
Speaker 1: or maybe before he got it, even got on the boat.
Speaker 1: I was almost thinking of, did either of you guys
Speaker 1: watch Deadwood? Yeah, do you remember the pilot episode where
Speaker 1: he throws a rope over the walkway and the guy's
Speaker 1: just standing there, and he just hoists him up, but
Speaker 1: then throws his own body weight on him and pulls
Speaker 1: him down to to do the deed that way, I
Speaker 1: can almost see that, you know, let the current drag
Speaker 1: the boat and just hold him in place. That's going
Speaker 1: to cause the constriction that you need cut off an airway.
Speaker 1: But it's not gonna it's not so sharp that it's
Speaker 1: gonna break his neck. Correct. It's with the Thames is
Speaker 1: at high, it's still a slow moving river. So you're
Speaker 1: just you're just pulling against it. And if you've ever
Speaker 1: been in a little boat and just hung onto a
Speaker 1: tree branch and it's gently moving river, you're like, well,
Speaker 1: this actually is kind of pulling me a lot harder
Speaker 1: than I would have expected. I could see that if
Speaker 1: all that was focused on with a rope. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is conjecture, I know, but yeah, I know, so
Speaker 1: uh so, yeah, anyway, but that's what everybody thinks is
Speaker 1: it was the whole thing about he was out of
Speaker 1: strangled on on the spot or somewhere else. Nobody really knows.
Speaker 1: I guess we never will. Um And I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about propaganda too, and how they
Speaker 1: got involved with this whole thing. The guy in charge
Speaker 1: of that was Licio Gilly, And it's been claimed that
Speaker 1: P two is kind of a state within the state
Speaker 1: and had with a Masonic laws that had a thousand
Speaker 1: members or nearly a thousand members, who are all very
Speaker 1: high powered people in Italian society, and uh so obviously
Speaker 1: it was the thing to belong to. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: suspecting that Gale was actually just a huge fraud. And well,
Speaker 1: because I read that, I read the stuff about him.
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to see what it is that that's
Speaker 1: leading you to think that. Well, um, uh. The Italian
Speaker 1: Parliament actually set up a commission to investigate P two
Speaker 1: and they looked at a lot of Gillies records and stuff.
Speaker 1: And he had records of, like I said, nearly a
Speaker 1: thousand people who were members of parliament, magistrates, generals in
Speaker 1: the in the service, the heads of intelligence services, all
Speaker 1: regular leading businessmen, all kinds of people, high powered people. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it was this commission that called P you a
Speaker 1: state within a state, at least based on Gliese files.
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is is a lot of
Speaker 1: the people that were named in the files denied being
Speaker 1: members of of P two. P two didn't act like
Speaker 1: an ordinary Masonic lodge. That is, they didn't have meetings
Speaker 1: so all the members could get to know each other.
Speaker 1: In fact, most of the members had no idea who
Speaker 1: any of the other members were, and only Gallen knew that.
Speaker 1: So they really weren't this sort of secret society apparently. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so it's really hard to say if it if
Speaker 1: it really was real, or if it was just a
Speaker 1: calm game. But and he he had some weird things
Speaker 1: going on, and he saw some of the oh yeah
Speaker 1: stuff he wrote about wanting to change the way the
Speaker 1: government was run and throw over everybody that was empowered.
Speaker 1: I mean, he really I would almost say it bordered
Speaker 1: a bid on megalomania. I would say, yeah. But the
Speaker 1: important thing about P two is is that as long
Speaker 1: as enough people believed all this stuff, then it was.
Speaker 1: It was a great thing for Gali because he could
Speaker 1: make a lot of money by acting as a go between.
Speaker 1: Uh and and sometimes he probably his services probably actually
Speaker 1: did come in useful. Uh So back to Robertal calving Um,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, he was arrested in nine one. He
Speaker 1: felt at the time that he had spent two months
Speaker 1: in prison, of course, and he felt at the time
Speaker 1: that there was really kind of this class war against
Speaker 1: bankers going on in Italy, and so he wanted to
Speaker 1: buy himself a little a little bit of protection. Uh
Speaker 1: And so he wanted to Lisio Gale and we was
Speaker 1: in charge of P two was Glee told Calvin in
Speaker 1: order to help him, he needed to bribe a bunch
Speaker 1: of high ranking Italian Italian parliament members, and of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: so he told him to transfer twenty one million dollars
Speaker 1: to a South American bank, and he was going to
Speaker 1: funnel that money back through intermediaries and to Italian politicians
Speaker 1: who would in turn hopefully interviewed with bank regulators. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there was also a series of loans that Manco Ambrosiano,
Speaker 1: uh there, Luxembourg Subsidi, I should say, made to a
Speaker 1: Animanian shell company that was also owned by Gilly. And
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get in all the shady financial
Speaker 1: movers that they that they pulled, but Glee was basically
Speaker 1: able to pocket over a hundred billion dollars of that
Speaker 1: those loans and so huge transfers of cash to him.
Speaker 1: But in return he didn't really provide him provide Calary
Speaker 1: with any protection. He didn't call He was not able
Speaker 1: to call off the dogs or anything else, which is
Speaker 1: why I think it might have just the whole P
Speaker 1: two thing might have just been a big swing. Basically,
Speaker 1: are either of you watching this season of True Detective? No,
Speaker 1: not yet, wait until it's done, Boilers. This is very familiar.
Speaker 1: Oh really maybe they lifted it from this? Yeah? Are
Speaker 1: you guys confused? All that's good. I want to hear
Speaker 1: about what happened, Like, who could have done this or
Speaker 1: did he do it? I'm trying as I'm ready for theories. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about theories. And I've got a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff to what we'll just skip that
Speaker 1: goes straight to the theories. Okay, okay, alright, yeah, okay, alright.
Speaker 1: Theory number one, it was suicide. We kind of that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know. Uh. Theory number two it was murder.
Speaker 1: But why do you guys think it was murder? Yes, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say who, but I think it was
Speaker 1: that we're in Devon territory. Here two headings. It was suicide, No,
Speaker 1: it was murder. Subheading, Yeah, it was murdered because she
Speaker 1: is a bullet list. I know it's catching on. So
Speaker 1: the question isn't then why number one Calvary was laundering
Speaker 1: money for the mafia and possibly investing some of their
Speaker 1: money and he lost a bunch of their money. So
Speaker 1: they often so they often makes sense, that's the theory.
Speaker 1: But there were there were some mob type people who
Speaker 1: were involved who were big times suspects in his murder.
Speaker 1: What what is it that? What's the name of the
Speaker 1: mob in Italy? The COSA Nostra. Yeah, that's it. That's it,
Speaker 1: because they're they're pretty notorious for making people disappear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or maybe in this case, you know, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the thing is if the mob had done it, you
Speaker 1: would think they would have just like killed him and
Speaker 1: you know, maybe weighed his body down and dumped into
Speaker 1: town's instead of very publicly hanging it like that. Then
Speaker 1: maybe I wanted to send a message, Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, but it's a pretty strong message what they're wanting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So our next theory as to why I would be
Speaker 1: propaganda too, and and Mr Gale the motive I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure about. But I'm kind of thinking that Calby
Speaker 1: gave Gli a lot of money, a hell of a
Speaker 1: lot of money, and basically got nothing in return. So
Speaker 1: getting rid of Calby really would have been a good
Speaker 1: way to stop him from asking for a refund or
Speaker 1: suing him for fraud. But I've also read isn't it
Speaker 1: wasn't it? P? Two that the members would call themselves
Speaker 1: Blackfriars And so the fact that he was hung from
Speaker 1: Blackfriars Bridge, people have drawn that connection to make it
Speaker 1: P two because there's that one to one naming thing.
Speaker 1: And I don't see anything other than that as a
Speaker 1: correlation based on what we I've read in the research
Speaker 1: you talked, I heard of that same connection. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was I don't know, um what
Speaker 1: brought Cali at to London? If he was manipulated into
Speaker 1: going to London, I say, Flavio Corbonian Carboni, who apparently
Speaker 1: had connections to P two, possibly had connections. There's rumored
Speaker 1: to have connections. So if if Carboni, for example, suggested
Speaker 1: going to London, it could have been specifically for the
Speaker 1: purpose of taking him to Blackfriars Bridge and hanging him
Speaker 1: from the bridge. That seems it just seems like they
Speaker 1: it just it seems like they're you're over complicating your
Speaker 1: your whack job. I was gonna say that they put
Speaker 1: him on a boat and they put him into Yugoslavia.
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot of rule. I mean, even
Speaker 1: in the eighties, you know, communisms was still in effect,
Speaker 1: but you know, you could kind of do what you
Speaker 1: wanted in those countries, and it seems like an easy
Speaker 1: place to wax somebody. They put him on a boat,
Speaker 1: just push him overboard, right, I mean, if you're gonna
Speaker 1: just kill somebody. I go through all of the channels too.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's I don't know. I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the things we run into with these whole
Speaker 1: secret society conspiracy theory things all the time, where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: they had they had to do it this way because
Speaker 1: it's this way, and it's like, well, but no, they
Speaker 1: probably didn't. I mean, if the evil bad guy had
Speaker 1: to confront him face to face and tell him he
Speaker 1: was going to die after he admitted he had done
Speaker 1: him wrong. It's just like the James Bond thing right
Speaker 1: where they're like, we're going to have this laser that
Speaker 1: moved super slowly on the room before actually died already
Speaker 1: actually does that doesn't happen. You gotta you gotta love
Speaker 1: that nobody explains their entire master plan and then shoots shoot.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But anyway, I think that's silly. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's a little silly too. Also, you can't exactly
Speaker 1: sue for fraud if you were like, hey, here's a
Speaker 1: bunch of money, do something to sketch you with bribe
Speaker 1: a bunch of people. Yeah, exactly so, but you defrauded me,
Speaker 1: you didn't actually bribe those people like you obeyed the law.
Speaker 1: You just took my money because I'm a jerk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I could have also, you know, he could have
Speaker 1: also done in his way to shut up chut calvy
Speaker 1: up that. That seems to be the overriding thing. You're
Speaker 1: shutting calviy up. Because he knew a lot, he knew
Speaker 1: a lot of sensitive information. Well, yeah he was. He
Speaker 1: was involved in a lot of suspicious dealings. I'll call
Speaker 1: him suspicious. And I have read a lot that people
Speaker 1: were worried that he was threatening to talk and basically,
Speaker 1: you know, pull everything out from underneath the rug and
Speaker 1: expose everything. So somebody did him in to protect that information,
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, Jelly or Gilly or the
Speaker 1: Vatican or the coast of Nostra. I mean, somebody did
Speaker 1: it for that reason, most likely, all right, next one,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people have accused the Vatican of
Speaker 1: arranging for his murder. I can see that, Yeah, because
Speaker 1: obviously he knew a lot of their business. He had
Speaker 1: made some he had made some threats about exposing his
Speaker 1: dealings with the bad with the Vatican Bank to Paul Marcinkus,
Speaker 1: And so that's why. That's why some people are thinking
Speaker 1: things along these lines. It seems like the if you
Speaker 1: were in a lot of trouble for something money related,
Speaker 1: and you said to the investigators, Okay, I know you
Speaker 1: think I'm a big fish, but I can give you
Speaker 1: the Vatican. That'd be a pretty good plea bargain or
Speaker 1: deal or whatever that you would make. And I can
Speaker 1: see being really scared of that as the Vatican saying
Speaker 1: he knows and can prove all of the kind of
Speaker 1: shady stuff we've been doing to make a ton of money,
Speaker 1: to make a bunch of money. He can expose us.
Speaker 1: And he's in the position in which he would try
Speaker 1: to expose us. Better take care of that. Yeah, I mean, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Vatican has the bad guy. Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: But you know there's you know, in the in the Church, obviously,
Speaker 1: there's occasionally going to be the bad apple, a bad
Speaker 1: apple or too you know, it happens, Well, there's there's
Speaker 1: been quite a few of them that have been involved
Speaker 1: in their financial matters. I don't know what it is
Speaker 1: about being involved in the Vatican and suddenly you're put
Speaker 1: in charge of large amounts of funds and every one
Speaker 1: of them just goes hog wild and ignores every rule around,
Speaker 1: just like I've got to make the money. It really is.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. The church actually has been hard up in
Speaker 1: the in the past, they've been pretty hard up for cash,
Speaker 1: and there I think there's hard they're probably hard up
Speaker 1: for cash now. Actually, well, the good news is the
Speaker 1: person in charge of that church right now seems to
Speaker 1: want to do the right thing with the money. So
Speaker 1: we will see how that all pans out. No longer
Speaker 1: wearing Versacci red slippers. Good for him. Sorry, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: well you have the day the people who were aware
Speaker 1: of all these all these various dealings, where Carlo Kanisi
Speaker 1: was the original head of the bank he died, he
Speaker 1: had died quite a while before this. And then our
Speaker 1: Calvi who succeeded him in the bank. And then Calby's
Speaker 1: secretary who was got Karosher I believe this was pronounced.
Speaker 1: She's the assistant who jumped or fell or was pushed
Speaker 1: to her death the day of the bank failed from
Speaker 1: the fifth story, right, Yeah, those are the three people
Speaker 1: that really would have known everything about the goings on
Speaker 1: with the Vatican Bank and all of their all their
Speaker 1: phony offshore companies and stuff. Hang on, Hang on a second.
Speaker 1: You talked about earlier that the secretary had seen him
Speaker 1: in his office, taken a whole bunch of papers, and
Speaker 1: put him in a black briefcase. Did they find that
Speaker 1: totally disappeared from the story. What happened with the black
Speaker 1: brief disappeared? You know, it's interesting his luggage was. He
Speaker 1: had a couple of suitcases which were found in his
Speaker 1: hotel room, but the black briefcase was gone and never
Speaker 1: to be seen again. It sort of pops up a
Speaker 1: little bit later. But yeah, okay, let's get there, but later,
Speaker 1: are we not? Yeah, at last, he just got killed
Speaker 1: for money here and simple. But he had a lot
Speaker 1: of money on him, but a whole lot more money
Speaker 1: in other places. So why wouldn't you take the money
Speaker 1: that was on him too? That would kind of make sense,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it. Yes, Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: go club a guy and then steal his offshore account
Speaker 1: and leave the million dollars it's in his pocket. Actually
Speaker 1: went around go spend that now. Yeah, there's literally nothing
Speaker 1: I have to do to take that money except for
Speaker 1: take it out of his pocket. Never thought about this.
Speaker 1: Let's continue. Yeah, yeah, Well, let's let's talk about some
Speaker 1: of the people who were who have been accused rather suspicious.
Speaker 1: Christ's Flavio car car Bony, the guy who facilitated as
Speaker 1: to escape from Italy. Next does a mafia boss named
Speaker 1: Pipo Ko I think I was pronounced who was who
Speaker 1: was actually tried for ordering Calby's murder? Um, And I'll so,
Speaker 1: Flavio Carboni is said to have been involved in muddy
Speaker 1: laundering for Pippo cow Ko. Pippo Carlo, you're right, season
Speaker 1: make it down to Italian okay? Uh? And the foreman
Speaker 1: also said that Flavio Carboni was an essential link between
Speaker 1: Carlo and the P two lodge. But there's those PC
Speaker 1: people again. Uh. Mafio So mafia also turned in former
Speaker 1: named Francesco Mantol. Yeah, I think that's how it's pronounced.
Speaker 1: Pointed the finger once again at Pippo Carlo, but also
Speaker 1: at Lecio Gali had a P two and claiming they
Speaker 1: had ordered Calvi's murder. I don't. I had no idea
Speaker 1: what his evidence was. That was for that Italian prosecutors.
Speaker 1: And by the way, by this time, everybody's on the
Speaker 1: same page. It was murdered, right, did the insurance company
Speaker 1: finally pay out. I don't know why I was concerned
Speaker 1: about that. Unfortunately, for the Emily, they had that they
Speaker 1: had to pay out about half of that to the
Speaker 1: investigators that they had hired, because the investigators had spent
Speaker 1: tremendous resources and you know, not just recreating the murder,
Speaker 1: but but traveling the world and documents and witnesses, traveling
Speaker 1: for business to Panama and the Yeah. So they so
Speaker 1: that their tab came to a fairly large amount of money.
Speaker 1: But in Italian prosecutors charged Carlo and also Flavio Carboni,
Speaker 1: alongside some guys named Ernesto and Dealt, Dealt, Levy and
Speaker 1: Francesco di Carlo. There was a very very long trial
Speaker 1: which basically was at the end they decided there was
Speaker 1: insufficient evidence to lock anybody up over this stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was more than one trial like that. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: there were there were, Yeah, there were other ones that. Uh.
Speaker 1: Eventually Francisco di Carlo, who apparently was a hit man,
Speaker 1: at one point returning format and he did say that
Speaker 1: Kalo people Klo had and approached him about murdering Calby,
Speaker 1: but that he hadn't carried it out. Uh, supposedly Kaylo
Speaker 1: had gotten a word to a third party to De
Speaker 1: Carlo that he needed to have somebody whacked. And by
Speaker 1: the time Di Carlo actually got in touch with Kaylo,
Speaker 1: because I remember the c at two people, nobody has
Speaker 1: cell phones. It's not not as easy to get ahold
Speaker 1: of your back your office, the secretary hands you the message.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So by the time, yeah, by the time
Speaker 1: you got back in touch with Kalo, which was like
Speaker 1: a couple of days later, Kaylo told him the problem
Speaker 1: had already been taken care of. So um. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, British investigators did find one dollar deposit
Speaker 1: and made it to the Carlo's bank accounts on June
Speaker 1: sixt the day before the murder. So and also Francesco
Speaker 1: di Carlo did have the nickname of Frankie the Strangler. Oh,
Speaker 1: you're kidding me. That was that, that was his name.
Speaker 1: That was okay, So what where else can and go
Speaker 1: from there? I mean, so obviously he did it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's that? No, it's not, it's not totally obvious. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's a good possibility. He was living in
Speaker 1: London at the time. Uh yeah, And obviously you know
Speaker 1: he would have an incentive to lie and say something
Speaker 1: in the order of yeah, yeah, he asked me to
Speaker 1: do it, but I didn't do it, you know. And
Speaker 1: there was that hundred that hundred thousand dollar bank deposit.
Speaker 1: There's a down payment. Yeah yeah. Another trial happened began
Speaker 1: in nine two seven. It was the prosecutors had announced
Speaker 1: that they thought the mafia had assassinated Calby to stopping
Speaker 1: blackmailing a number of senior political figures linked to the
Speaker 1: PT Lodge as well as the Vatican Bank, because there
Speaker 1: were were there were hints that he was he was
Speaker 1: actually going to blackmail. Then we had brought to talk
Speaker 1: about threatening to squeal. Yeah, exactly. That trial, as as
Speaker 1: I said, begin in two thousand and seven was it
Speaker 1: was people Kulo from Flavio Carboni deal to Levy and
Speaker 1: this time calby bodyguard, uh Silvano Vittor was included. Um.
Speaker 1: They of course all denied being involved, and eventually they
Speaker 1: got off again because of not enough evidence. And that
Speaker 1: was that. I don't know, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: there's gonna be any more trials at this point or not,
Speaker 1: if people involved in this whole case. You're getting kind
Speaker 1: of old and so it's it's extremely difficult to run
Speaker 1: down any witnesses forty years later, thirty years later. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think we're ever gonna know who actually did
Speaker 1: who actually carried out the actual murder. I think that
Speaker 1: Flavio Carboni had a part in it. I don't know
Speaker 1: that he actually committed the murder itself. Yeah, because Roberto
Speaker 1: cality was totally dependent on Carboni to make all his
Speaker 1: arrangements and then to keep him hidden in London in
Speaker 1: various other places. And obviously Carboni had access to him
Speaker 1: and he's the only person who knew his whereabouts besides
Speaker 1: his veto or the bodyguard. Uh So, Carboni, because Calby
Speaker 1: trusted him, could easily have gotten him to come with
Speaker 1: them for some pretext, like say, I mentioned that he
Speaker 1: had said that he was he had found a flat
Speaker 1: for him to move into, but that was actually not true,
Speaker 1: and I found him a flat, So say, if you
Speaker 1: call um, won't say, hey, packer bags, we're gonna move
Speaker 1: to a new flat and get you some nicer accommodations
Speaker 1: than Calby would have gone with him. And so I'm
Speaker 1: I'm guessing under that what you've just said there is
Speaker 1: that the idea was we're gonna go look at the flat.
Speaker 1: Knot let's move to the flat because his bags are
Speaker 1: all stilt hotel. Yeah, but his bags were packed. He
Speaker 1: told him to pack his bag because he would he
Speaker 1: found a flat to move to. Yeah. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: Carboni and so Colby would have just gone with him
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and he could have just delivered him
Speaker 1: to the hitman who would have taken care of all arrest.
Speaker 1: Or he could have been the hitman. Yeah, or maybe
Speaker 1: he was. You know, I don't know that he has
Speaker 1: a record for that kind of thing or not. But
Speaker 1: what his motive would have been money because remember Calby
Speaker 1: had given him a whole bunch of money, and he
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually it was just expense money. It wasn't
Speaker 1: actually a gift, It was just to cover expenses. So
Speaker 1: if he spent less, he had to give it back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if if yeah, if he hadn't spent it all,
Speaker 1: then he would he would probably have had to give
Speaker 1: most of all of it back. I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 1: he would have gotten a tip for his help with services.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, eleven million bucks is a
Speaker 1: pretty good money. Yeah, that's a pretty good moments ago.
Speaker 1: Another suspicious thing is that both Carboni and Vider left
Speaker 1: England very early on the morning of the eighteen body
Speaker 1: was found on the morning they lounged at the same time,
Speaker 1: if not before the body was found. Yeah. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: seems suspicious. It seems a little suspicious. Yeah. Uh. And
Speaker 1: at last of all, the black briefcase makes its reappearance. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he seems to have wound up in possession of the
Speaker 1: black briefcase, Carbonian Flavio carbon He appears to have And
Speaker 1: it's this is and the guy named Edward j. Epstein
Speaker 1: wrote wrote a long article about this, and he's he's
Speaker 1: an investigative reporter. He used to work for Vanity Fair magazine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's written a number of books and stuff. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he did a long article about this, and he
Speaker 1: talked to an investigating magistrate in Italy named Judge how Margie.
Speaker 1: I think that's how it's pronounced. Yeah. This judge was
Speaker 1: wasn't looking into the Calby affair. And he told Epstein
Speaker 1: that the Vatican had acknowledged to him that they had
Speaker 1: given Carboni two million dollars for certain documents. Uh and uh.
Speaker 1: He had apparently come across evidence of the Vatican was
Speaker 1: considerable considering paying him an additional forty million dollars, presumably
Speaker 1: for the rest of the contents of that black briefcase. Well,
Speaker 1: so wouldn't You wouldn't even have to have murdered him
Speaker 1: for money, if you know, he said, Oh, I have
Speaker 1: this briefcase that's worth a lot of money, murdering money. Sorry,
Speaker 1: when did when did the Vatican pay him for the documents? Yeah?
Speaker 1: That I'm not Surestine didn't give any dates as to
Speaker 1: precisely the judge either. The judge didn't tell him exactly
Speaker 1: what it was. Maybe just didn't know. One would assume
Speaker 1: you would wait a little bit. You wouldn't immediately like
Speaker 1: two days later, Yeah, show up with these documents. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so did did Flavio Carboni blackmail the Pope? Yes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: sounds like so. You guys have many further thoughts any
Speaker 1: more theories. Yeah, he was definitely murdered. Carboni probably had
Speaker 1: a hand in it, whether or not it was you know,
Speaker 1: he happened to find these documents afterwards, or it was
Speaker 1: motivated by them. I think, Yeah, I definitely had a
Speaker 1: hand in it if he didn't do it himself, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. And his his bodyguard probably at least
Speaker 1: knew something. Yeah, of course he would. There's just seems
Speaker 1: to be a whole lot of people involved with this thing,
Speaker 1: this whole thing that could have a little blood on
Speaker 1: their hands. Yeah. The only thing that I know that
Speaker 1: there's so much evidence pointing to certain people just because
Speaker 1: they're so involved in it. The one thing I couldn't
Speaker 1: help but wonder the whole time is going through this
Speaker 1: is the unknown third party, and that is somebody who
Speaker 1: is investing heavily in banking, and of course his bank
Speaker 1: is going under seeing him and recognizing him, because well
Speaker 1: Joe knows, and I think you know, Devon his his
Speaker 1: great disguise to travel abroad, his mustache. He shaved his mustache,
Speaker 1: So yeah, not not really disguising himself much. Although I
Speaker 1: will tell you I have a friend who just today,
Speaker 1: I've only ever known him with a beard, and he
Speaker 1: shaved it all off. And I literally didn't. I see
Speaker 1: him every day I work with him, even it was
Speaker 1: his upper lip, I didn't suddenly I didn't recognize him.
Speaker 1: I thought he looked a lot different without the mustache.
Speaker 1: I see. I although the only picture of him that
Speaker 1: I saw without the mustache was the one where he
Speaker 1: was dead and laying on the side to the bridge.
Speaker 1: He's probably gonna wear the same kind of clothes, He's
Speaker 1: going to act and speak the same way. So I
Speaker 1: I always just wonder if it's somebody happens to go,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's that that jerk that lost me
Speaker 1: all that money. We're gonna go find him and we're
Speaker 1: going to talk to him, and then something happens. I mean,
Speaker 1: do I think that's it? But I still can't help
Speaker 1: but wonder he was keeping a pretty low profile. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that the odds that's some random dude just
Speaker 1: ran across him, you know, I think it's more likely
Speaker 1: that probably the people surrounding him just killed him or
Speaker 1: arranged for him to be killed, or got paid to bribe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: say a bribe to accidentally look the other way while
Speaker 1: he was walking down the street. Yeah. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: unfortunate for Roberto Calary. You know, I don't know that
Speaker 1: he was a bad guy at all, but he's got
Speaker 1: kind of involved with the wrong kind of people, and uh,
Speaker 1: everything kind of went south. That's what happens to a
Speaker 1: lot of those guys is that they want to make
Speaker 1: a couple of extra bucks, so they'll just shine on
Speaker 1: the fact that you do all these other things and
Speaker 1: then comes back to bite them in the end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so sad. Yeah, anyway, any other thoughts, Well, hey,
Speaker 1: let's just wind us down then, all right. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you all of you out there, I've got
Speaker 1: thoughts about this. In fact, maybe some of you your
Speaker 1: MafA Yosa and you'd like to actually, you know, cleue
Speaker 1: us in and some of the some of the actual
Speaker 1: stuff that happened. If that is the case, you can
Speaker 1: send us an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. We also have a website of course, where
Speaker 1: you can download our episodes and you can also leave comments,
Speaker 1: and we all have links to all various articles that
Speaker 1: you can read about the mystery. Our website is Thinking
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Speaker 1: that's about it for this week. Any further thoughts, no,
Speaker 1: all right, well goodbye everybody hanging there, guys,