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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always

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Speaker 1: by Devon and Steve, and we're gonna be talking this

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Speaker 1: week about another groovy mystery. Groovy. Yeah, it's a really

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Speaker 1: groovy mystery. Yeah, it's it's it's fun because it's got like,

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Speaker 1: it's got a whole trail of bodies and stuff. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of things going on. Yeah, there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of cool stuff. So we're gonna be talking about God's

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Speaker 1: Banker a k a. Roberto Caality Groovy. Before are go

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Speaker 1: any further, I want to stop and thank Emily for

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Speaker 1: suggesting this particular mystery. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good one.

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Speaker 1: It's very convolated. If you write up you're Allex. Would

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Speaker 1: you guys not agree this is a twisted mystery? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh so call the we're going to Cally was found

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Speaker 1: dead in the morning of June eighteenth two in the

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Speaker 1: city of London, England. He was hanging from scaffolding underneath

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Speaker 1: Blackfriars Bridge, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. Yeah right,

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Speaker 1: I did check it out. A street view of it's

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Speaker 1: a cool old bridge actually that anyway, the bridge was

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Speaker 1: undergoing some renovations and that's why there's scaffolding surrounding it.

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Speaker 1: And he apparently climbed out onto the scaffolding and tied

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Speaker 1: a rope to it and the other end around round

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Speaker 1: his neck and jumped into the water. Um So it

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Speaker 1: was not high enough for him to actually dangle in

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Speaker 1: the air because the tide was in. The tide was in,

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Speaker 1: the water was high. Who was dressed in a suit

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Speaker 1: and tie at the time they found him, his feet

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Speaker 1: were still dangling into Thames, but the tide had gone

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Speaker 1: out quite a bit, and so originally he probably would

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Speaker 1: have been in up to his waist, if not a

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Speaker 1: little higher. They found bricks and pieces of maceres stuffed

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Speaker 1: into his jacket, the suit jacket pockets and down his pants.

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Speaker 1: He had on an Italian passport. But did I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that Roberto Acality was Italian? Yeah, yeah, he's actually a

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Speaker 1: banker from Milan, City of Milan. Well, by the way,

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Speaker 1: he's called God's Banker because he did a lot of

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Speaker 1: dealings with the Vatican. But I'll talk more about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know we're gonna go into that a lot. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They so they found an Italian passport which identified him

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Speaker 1: as Ian Roberto Calvino. Of course that was a fake.

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Speaker 1: He then traveling and like with three different passports. I

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Speaker 1: think they were all fake actually, because I think the

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Speaker 1: Italian government had confiscated his passport. Yeah, but yet. Also

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Speaker 1: found in the body was about fourteen thousand dollars in British,

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Speaker 1: Swiss and Italian currency and a Patech Philippe watch, which

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Speaker 1: by one account was worth somewhere in the neighborhood of

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Speaker 1: a hundred thousand bucks. He was obviously a pretty well

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Speaker 1: off guy. Unfortunately, the the watches stuff running because he

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Speaker 1: went in When he went into the water, it immersed,

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Speaker 1: but that gave him a clue as to win. The

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Speaker 1: hanging actually took place, which was one two in the morning.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, we can rule out robbery and murder. Um

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Speaker 1: that's what this was. Well, we can rule out robbery

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Speaker 1: or murder for robbery. Yeah, yeah, that's true, but that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't murder motivated by robbery. They found his luggage

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Speaker 1: back at the hotel where he was staying, all packed

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Speaker 1: up and ready to go. The police it did a

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Speaker 1: two day investigation and there was an autopsy, of course.

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Speaker 1: Also the corner ruled that he had died of a

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Speaker 1: six c ation because when he hung himself, he obviously

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Speaker 1: usually when you hang yourself, you drop far enough fast

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Speaker 1: enough that you break your neck. That's the preferred Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the corner also ruled that the death was a suicide.

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Speaker 1: The autopsy didn't find any suspicious marks on the body,

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Speaker 1: no drugs in his system, no punctures, and his watch

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Speaker 1: I said, it stopped at one fifty two in the morning.

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Speaker 1: The to for the suicide I was I'm assuming that

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Speaker 1: they were assuming was that he had just been sentenced

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Speaker 1: to four years in Britain's president in Italy because and

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Speaker 1: also his bank, the Marco Ambrosiano, had just collapsed, because

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Speaker 1: they had a whole lot of missing money, like about

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Speaker 1: one point two billion dollars worth. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: explain this a little more in a couple of minutes, right, Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: speak it were lossing over that part. Yeah, that bank collapsed,

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Speaker 1: the Vatican Bank was missing about half a billion dollars,

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Speaker 1: and so he had a lot of planning to do,

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Speaker 1: and he was obviously under a tremendous amount of pressure

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Speaker 1: and also he had attempted suicide the previous year while

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Speaker 1: he was in jail by cutting his wrists and taking barbituates,

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Speaker 1: so obviously that didn't work. How do you get barbituates

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Speaker 1: in jail? Um, I hear it's easy. Actually, yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: heard of jail. You can get, especially if you're a

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Speaker 1: rich guy like him, you can get anything you want.

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Speaker 1: Good point. A lot of people, including his family, didn't

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Speaker 1: believe he killed himself, and eventually the verdict almost a

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Speaker 1: year later, was reversed to we don't know, so it

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Speaker 1: could have been suicide, could have been murder. It was

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Speaker 1: down grade. It was upgraded to a shrug pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But what's strange about the whole thing is to get

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Speaker 1: to the scaffolding where he hung himself, he would have

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Speaker 1: had to climb over the railing and down uh not

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Speaker 1: a ladder which was attached to the sea wall, and

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Speaker 1: then step across about a two and a half foot

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Speaker 1: gap to the scaffolding, and then walk across the scaffolding

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Speaker 1: to a certain point where it went down to a

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Speaker 1: lower level of scaffolding, and then shinny down, tied the

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Speaker 1: rope and then hang himself. This well, having bricks and

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Speaker 1: stuff in his pockets. Yeah, it stuffed down his pants

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Speaker 1: and stuff. And I did I mentioned he was sixty

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Speaker 1: two years old when he died. Yeah, he was sixty two,

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Speaker 1: which is ancient. Yeah it's not Yeah, it's not that bad,

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Speaker 1: but it's still he was not great. Yeah, he wasn't. No,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't. Wasn't out there doing park quarters some no, not, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was that was odd. There were no signs

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Speaker 1: of this in his body. His hands should have had,

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Speaker 1: like the scaffolding was kind of rusty. It should have had,

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Speaker 1: so his hands should have had some abrasions and some

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Speaker 1: rust stuff. And and maybe shoes did his Did he

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Speaker 1: have his shoes on? Yeah, he's wearing his shoes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't have any Although I guess the shoes.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me as much since they would have

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Speaker 1: been submerged in water, so that stuff could have washed away,

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Speaker 1: and it could have if the water was high enough

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Speaker 1: for his hands, it could have washed it off. The

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Speaker 1: honking the same thing. Yeah, Yeah, it's possible, but that's

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Speaker 1: quite I mean, but actually, but actually we'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about that more little later on. Sure. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: just gonna say it's quite a commitment to killing yourself

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Speaker 1: in that very spot, in that very way. It seems

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Speaker 1: like there would be easier ways to do it, even

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Speaker 1: hanging off the bridge in London. It seems like there'd

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Speaker 1: be a lot better places to do it than that.

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Speaker 1: It really does. Jumping ahead, Yeah, so let's go back

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Speaker 1: in time. A week he left Italy. Just the week before,

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Speaker 1: he'd been says to four years in stir for violating

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Speaker 1: currency laws. And actually what what they arrested for and

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Speaker 1: put him on trial for it wasn't a patently unfair

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Speaker 1: because he had done some currency some not currency manipulation,

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Speaker 1: but some currency transactions, some foreign currency transactions back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, and the transactions were perfectly legal, but

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six the Italian parliament passed a retroactive

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Speaker 1: law making it illegal. One he was arrested for for

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Speaker 1: breaking a law that didn't even exist in ninety one.

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Speaker 1: That's hard, yeah, it's yeah, yeah it is. And so

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Speaker 1: his case was under appeal. He was out on bail

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Speaker 1: of course at this time. Is it hadn't completely come

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Speaker 1: out when he left the country that Banco Ambrosiano wasn't

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Speaker 1: as serious trouble as it was, and had so many

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Speaker 1: missing funds and bad debts. But he was aware of it,

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Speaker 1: of course. Of course. Yeah, that's another good reason to

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Speaker 1: skip the country. Yeah, so he decided that, decided to

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Speaker 1: skip out, skip down. And the day he left, his

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Speaker 1: assistants saw him filling a black attache case with documents

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Speaker 1: from his office safe and that's that same assistant died

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Speaker 1: on the day that the bank was taken over by

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Speaker 1: the Bank of Italy. Yeah, she threw herself out of window,

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Speaker 1: didn't She was pushed. I thought she left her note. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she did live it out it was about CALLI. Yes,

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Speaker 1: yeah he did, she did, Okay, Yeah, just making sure

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Speaker 1: I had that part right. Yea written in red ink.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's signified everything or not. So

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Speaker 1: when he left Italy, he had the aid of a

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Speaker 1: guy named Flavio Carboni, who's a Sardinian businessman who apparently

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Speaker 1: was very well connected. So Kali flew to Venice from

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Speaker 1: the Lawn and then traveled by car to tree Esque, Italy,

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Speaker 1: which is over by the border with Yugoslavia. He was

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Speaker 1: in smuggling into Yugoslavia bought by a boat and then

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Speaker 1: traveled by car all the way up to Austria and

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Speaker 1: then there and from Austria he flew to London on

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Speaker 1: a private jet. So pretty it was a pretty elaborate

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Speaker 1: thing that lasted for several days and a lot of

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Speaker 1: different modes of transport. I have a quick question, I

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Speaker 1: never saw this anywhere. Maybe nobody knows. Do we know

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Speaker 1: what his intended final destination was? Is? I mean, he

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Speaker 1: couldn't have just intended to keep moving every couple of

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Speaker 1: days for ever. He had to have somewhere he was going.

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Speaker 1: One would have someplace without an extradition deal with Italy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you would think, yeah, that would that would make the

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Speaker 1: most sense, which I imagine is nowhere in Europe. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the only people that that maybe would have

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Speaker 1: known would be Flavio Cormoni, who's the guy who basically

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Speaker 1: made all the arrangements um and also Carboni also hired

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Speaker 1: a cigarette smuggler named Silvano Vittor to be called these bodyguard,

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Speaker 1: so or might have also known what the ultimate destination was.

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Speaker 1: But these guys aren't talking. They're still alive, but they're

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Speaker 1: not talking. I guess that could have been. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you have a fake passport. You essentially have a

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Speaker 1: new identity if you can get to a place that's

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Speaker 1: kind of bigger, like London. It's not the worst place

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Speaker 1: to try and disappear, although it is the most monitored place,

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Speaker 1: but kind of there's a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: people there. But this was in Yeah, wasn't really has

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Speaker 1: monitored eighty two. Sure they didn't cameras up on every

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Speaker 1: day in London was kind of a dirty little town

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Speaker 1: at that time, not the financial hub that it is

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Speaker 1: today now. In London, Calvin and Victor checked into a

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Speaker 1: residential hotel called the Chelsea Cloisters. Um, of course I

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Speaker 1: looked at on the street view. And meanwhile Carboni checked

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Speaker 1: into it, I believe the Sheridan or the Hilton, some

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Speaker 1: much more luxurious hotel. And oh, I forgot to mention

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Speaker 1: too that the beginning of this little adventure, Calvin had

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Speaker 1: transferred a large amount of money into Carboni's Swiss account

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Speaker 1: to cover his expenses because there was a lot involved.

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Speaker 1: You know, he had pay people to smuggle him, pay

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Speaker 1: people to drive him, and you know, bribe officials. It's

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Speaker 1: not a cheaper fire private jet. Yeah, so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think the amount was around eleven million, decent amount of money.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of money even today. Oh yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were throwing back when being a millionaire meant something. If

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Speaker 1: I was a millionaire tomorrow, I still wouldn't quit my

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Speaker 1: day job. Yeah. So they were in London for just

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Speaker 1: not very long at all really, But on the June seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: about five pm, Carboni phone called and told him that

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Speaker 1: he found a flatform to stay in the issue pack

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Speaker 1: his bags. Strangely, Carboni went by the hotel later and

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Speaker 1: met viitter at the front desk, but didn't go up

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Speaker 1: to see Calvy at that time. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: Next next to Calvi was seen was about ten pm,

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Speaker 1: when the resident of the hotel saw him leaving at

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Speaker 1: the back by the back door. So did I say

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Speaker 1: ten pm? Ten pm with quote two Italian men, but

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Speaker 1: he didn't identify them. What I can't understand is why

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Speaker 1: if you're the bodyguard, you're not staying in the same place,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: some from Well now the vidder that the bodyguard was

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Speaker 1: staying at the same place, Carboni was staying at a

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Speaker 1: different hotel. Okay, sorry, I got I totally got the

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Speaker 1: two mixed up. Yeah, yeah, this is confusing little mystery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems likely that the team men were Carboni and Viitter,

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Speaker 1: but we're not sure, can't be totally sure. Veder later

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Speaker 1: told the police that he left the hotel at seven

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Speaker 1: pm to beat Carboni and then he returned at eight

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Speaker 1: or one am and Calby was gone. That's what he

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Speaker 1: told the police. I'm not sure he should be believed,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it may be true. Yeah, we'll see. Uh

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Speaker 1: So at this point, let me digress a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And of course we know what happened after after that

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Speaker 1: he died at so I'll talk. So, I guess we

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Speaker 1: need to talk a little bit about how he kind

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Speaker 1: of got involved with all this high level financial stuff,

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Speaker 1: how he became God's banker. He became God's banker, and

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Speaker 1: then god knows how many things he was involved in,

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Speaker 1: but he apparently got involved with some kind of dangerous people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I'm going to talk about how he got involved

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Speaker 1: in the Vatican's finances. It's just real fast like here, um,

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Speaker 1: and I sure, I'm sure you all know this already.

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Speaker 1: But in the nineteenth century, the Vaticans properties were all

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Speaker 1: confiscated by the government of Italy. Yeah, you need that

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Speaker 1: right left, the church was very little in the way

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Speaker 1: of income, but they gets some compensation from Medito Mussolini

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Speaker 1: in nine he gave them some I think some government

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Speaker 1: bonds and a bunch of cash. Do you very one

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Speaker 1: that we all know and love from World War two?

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Speaker 1: At the very one at the pulp at the time

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Speaker 1: was pious the twelve and so he started investing some

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Speaker 1: of those funds. And what they did is that they

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Speaker 1: took out of the fact that their agreement now with

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Speaker 1: the state of Italy made them basically a sovereign state.

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Speaker 1: So to take advantage of that, they hired a banker

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Speaker 1: named Bernardino Negara who was supposed to invest their money

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Speaker 1: and basically use it to do a bunch of arbitrage

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Speaker 1: operations to make money. You know, arbitrage is when you

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Speaker 1: when you trade, it's like it's like trading gold and

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Speaker 1: silver and stuff, but you're trading money instead. So like say,

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Speaker 1: right now, the Canadian dollar is weak, so if I

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Speaker 1: buy up a bunch of Canadian money and then said

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Speaker 1: I don't wait for wait for the Canadian dollar to

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Speaker 1: get stronger, than I sell my Canadian dollars again. I've

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Speaker 1: just I've just needed myself a profit. Okay, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we have some financial experts out there. I know what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, but I hadn't been able to connect

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Speaker 1: that that term. I don't think I've ever heard it

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Speaker 1: used for so he's trading money. Yeah. World War Two,

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Speaker 1: the Vatican, of course was surrounded by hostile fascists on

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Speaker 1: all sides, you know, not to mention there were some

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Speaker 1: other there's all kinds of stuff going on, and they

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Speaker 1: were worried about the safety of their money. So pious

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Speaker 1: the twelfth or the creation of a private bank within

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Speaker 1: the Vatican, and this was called to be called the

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Speaker 1: Institute for Religious Works and the I r W. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and in italian's io RS but but I r W

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Speaker 1: in English it so we'll call it what it is

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Speaker 1: in Italian. Then. Yeah, prittest named Giovanni Montini was put

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Speaker 1: in charge of it at the bank, that is, and

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Speaker 1: he oversaw its operations until nineteen sixty three when he

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Speaker 1: became the sixth So yeah, the Vaticans banker became the Pope.

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Speaker 1: The pope that only lasted thirty three days. No, that

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Speaker 1: was John Paul. Yeah, John Paul. When he I have

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Speaker 1: a hard time keeping the pope straight for some reason. Well,

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Speaker 1: and you know Paul John paula yeah, ring, Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: hasn't been one of those yet yet. Yeah. The the

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Speaker 1: actually the death of John Paul is subject. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of conspiracy theories about that. Pretty good. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: should do that sometimes, yeah, I we should do, don't.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to do too many Vaticans stories, so

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Speaker 1: not too many in Roman. Yeah, we've done a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them. We've got plenty of time to get to them. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the Vatican back was doing all right, but then

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Speaker 1: a new Italian law was passed that required foreign investors

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Speaker 1: to pay a thirty percent tax on dividends. That's a

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Speaker 1: hefty tax. Yeah. Yeah, So the bank decided it was

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Speaker 1: it would be a good idea to transfer most of

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Speaker 1: his investments to overseas companies. I mean, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Vaticans its own country. So yeah, but they were considered.

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Speaker 1: But but if you have part of Italy, but if

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Speaker 1: you have investments that are paying dividends, and the companies

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Speaker 1: aren't located actually like in the Vatican, yeah, which none

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Speaker 1: of them are. Oh yeah, so they were I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: they were rather heavily investing in Italian You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure exactly what kind of things it wasn't. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't strictly Italian now, but I'm just thinking that must

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Speaker 1: have been what forced them to decide to shift. Is Wait,

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Speaker 1: this is coming through and we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: money in the country that we're getting returns on, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that we're gonna we're gonna sell. Yeah, so we're

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Speaker 1: to Panama and where sorry, oh, miscellaneous places a Panama, Lichtenstein, looked, Luxembourg,

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Speaker 1: all those, yeah, Nicaragua, Peru, all kinds of places. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So what they needed was they needed a bank that

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Speaker 1: could set up an anonymous accounts and offshore companies for

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Speaker 1: them and then transfer their assets for them. When they

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Speaker 1: hired a small private bank called bunk up Vita Finanziata

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, close enough. It was run by a

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Speaker 1: guy named michels in Donna, and who, by the way,

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Speaker 1: new Roberto Calbi gods banker. Uh and he had actually

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Speaker 1: mentored Calibi in the art of creating offshore companies, and

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Speaker 1: the relationship when in Sandona and the Vatican Bank went

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Speaker 1: well for a while, but eventually he had a banking

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Speaker 1: empire that wasn't and I think it was Italy and Switzerland.

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Speaker 1: He had banks, he had a lot of banks and uh.

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Speaker 1: But eventually it came under criminal investigation for a number

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Speaker 1: of different matters, and so the Vatican decided that he

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Speaker 1: was a bit of a liability. And they also didn't

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Speaker 1: if the police were investigators were snooping around the bank's records,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't really want to have their private dealings known.

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Speaker 1: Also another reason to ditch this guy, and so they

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Speaker 1: went looking for a replacement. Uh. Paul Marcinkis who was

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Speaker 1: kind of a player in this. He was a priest

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Speaker 1: from America, and he was put in charge of finding

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Speaker 1: that replacement, who turned out to be the Banco Ambrosiano

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Speaker 1: in Milan. They had already had already had connected it.

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Speaker 1: It had been founded by priests, and some of the

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Speaker 1: previous chairman had known some of the previous popes and

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Speaker 1: such things. So they were yeah, yeah, they were already

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Speaker 1: they were yeah yeah. And also the Vatican already owned

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Speaker 1: some of his stock. Yeah. Chairman at the time was

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Speaker 1: Carlo Kanisi and the general manager manager was Rodberto Calvy.

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Speaker 1: A secret arrangement was made for the Vatican to buy

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Speaker 1: more stock in the banks so that they could have

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Speaker 1: actually a controlling interest in the stock in the ban Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then once they had controlling stock, they could put

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Speaker 1: whoever they wanted in charge. I'm guessing yeah, or at

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Speaker 1: least you have some say over there, you know, the

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Speaker 1: bank's operations. That would make sense, especially if you're going

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Speaker 1: to invest heavily. Yeah, exactly. And I'm really excus I'm

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Speaker 1: really kind of actually like really glossing over a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff. It gets a lot more complicated than this.

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Speaker 1: The stuff that these guys were doing, well, they I know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that they were doing that I

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Speaker 1: found fascinating and so despicable. Um and I don't remember

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Speaker 1: exactly who it was, because again there is so many players.

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Speaker 1: Was the false deposits. Did either of you guys read

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Speaker 1: about those? Where they were they were reporting false deposits

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Speaker 1: into accounts and so that they would get the funds

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Speaker 1: from that. They'd say, oh, so and so it this

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Speaker 1: was depositing money. Now we've got more, and it was

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Speaker 1: this weird shuffle of non existent cash that then showed

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Speaker 1: up on the books. But they never actually had that

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00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 1: cash to begin with, so then they had more money

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Speaker 1: to spend. It was. It's almost like the guy you

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Speaker 1: see on the street with the three solo cups with

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Speaker 1: the ball under one of them, but he's like, which

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Speaker 1: one is it really under? Which one is it really here?

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Speaker 1: They're just moving it around constantly. That's what it was

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Speaker 1: with huge sums of money. Yeah, they were playing all

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Speaker 1: kinds of crazy games. Um yeah, I came that came

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Speaker 1: back to buy them on the Yeah, real blew up

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Speaker 1: in their face, that kind of did uh uh so

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Speaker 1: call call. They created a bank subsidiary in the Bahamas

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Speaker 1: and set up a bunch of anonymous holding companies under that,

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Speaker 1: and which is where the Vatican's money was going to

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Speaker 1: go of Courus mar Senkas became president of the Vatican

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Speaker 1: Bank and also sat on the board of the Bahamas

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Speaker 1: subsidiary of the Banco and Brosciano. Things went along pretty

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Speaker 1: well for a while or a Bartol Calgary brought in

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Speaker 1: some good profits for the church. When it's out made,

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Speaker 1: everybody was happy. But then Michelle and Siding don't remember him.

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Speaker 1: He was their previous bankers. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, little memories,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. He decided to stir up a little trouble.

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Speaker 1: Apparently he was he was feeling kind of kind of

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Speaker 1: upset about being cut out of cut out of the

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Speaker 1: Vatican's business. Well, there's probably he probably lost a fair

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Speaker 1: about the money. Yeah, to be fair, yeah, uh, he

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Speaker 1: demanded ten million bucks from Calby, and Calgary basically said no,

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Speaker 1: I'm told him to go pound sand and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he got his revenge. He on November thirteenth, nineteen

387
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: seventy seven, posters were plastered on buildings all around the

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Speaker 1: Bonco and Brosiano which included numbers of secrets with accounts

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Speaker 1: that had been used for the deal, whereby the Vatican

390
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: netted that extra stock that put them in basically in

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Speaker 1: control of Marco and Brosiano. And there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of other stuff on these posters also. He also he

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Speaker 1: also sent a letter to the Bank of Italy with

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Speaker 1: details of these transactions. Uh. And the Bank of Italy,

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Speaker 1: by the way, it was not a private bank. It

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Speaker 1: was Italy's central bank, kind of like our federal reserve.

397
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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, yeah, what's our equivalent that makes sense? Yeah, Yeah,

398
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Speaker 1: they started an investigation into this. Um is not a

399
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 1: good thing, not a good thing on your bank. Now,

400
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: a guy named Mario Sarsinelli the Bank of Italy was

401
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: the guy who was put in charge of looking into

402
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: Banko and Brociano's finances. One day, the police arrived at

403
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Speaker 1: the bank's headquarters and arrested him. And yeah, he was.

404
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: He was taken away. I locked up in prison for

405
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Speaker 1: ten days, uh and then at at at which point

406
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: he was released on the condition that he leave his

407
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Speaker 1: job at the Bank of Italy, and that pretty much

408
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: was was it for the investigation? Wait a second, Yeah,

409
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 1: so the major the major central bank, gets the police involved,

410
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Speaker 1: they arrest him, they put him in jail for ten days,

411
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Speaker 1: find out who knows what, if anything, and then just says,

412
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Speaker 1: quit your job, and it's all good. Quit your job

413
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Speaker 1: and we'll let you go. Something smells fishy, and that's

414
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Speaker 1: going to say that's conspiracy theory Podder. Yeah, oh yeah,

415
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Speaker 1: I mean if you if you look at this whole mystery,

416
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: it's obvious that. I mean, there's a whole lot of

417
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Speaker 1: stuff like this going on. There's a there's another one

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Speaker 1: I'm to talk about here in just a minute, so

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about it now. Uh. Or speaking of Sindona, well,

420
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Speaker 1: some of his banks had failed, never being liquidated and

421
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Speaker 1: a liquid A guy who was placed in charge of

422
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Speaker 1: liquidating them was named Mario Ambrosli, and he found evidence

423
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Speaker 1: in Sindora and Sindona's records that documented a possibly illegal

424
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: transfer of six and a half million dollars to quote,

425
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: an American bishop and a Milanese banker. Yeah, and that

426
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: would be who guess who, Paul Marcinkus from the Vatican

427
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 1: and Roberto Calviy Right. So yeah, and the six point

428
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: five million was part of the deal that netted the

429
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: Vatican that extra chunk of Banco. Ambrosiano stuck word leaked

430
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: out to the press. Uh. Mario amro slowly's investigation didn't

431
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: go very far because he was shot dead in front

432
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: of his house not long after that point. So yeah,

433
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: another body, wasn't he and also a police investigator or

434
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 1: a reporter, I can't remember which one or another. So

435
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: he and somebody else both got shot at the same

436
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: time and turned out they were contracted, isn't that right?

437
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure to sound familiar to you, I'm not sure,

438
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: because I am pretty sure that I remember that. One

439
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: of the things that is Sindona is that I think

440
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 1: that and I might be getting this wrong, but I

441
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: think one of the things that got him put away

442
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: was contracting those two killings because he was trying to

443
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: hide what was going on. Could very well be yeah

444
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: that that Apparently it worked, although eventually the lot caught

445
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 1: up with Sidona. Yeah, he got the US Feds busted him, didn't. Hey,

446
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: you got in trouble in America. I want him going

447
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: to prison in America for a while, yes, and Dona,

448
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: he did as you said, go to prison in the

449
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: US and he was later extradited to Italy where he

450
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: did a little time in prison. And uh in nineteen

451
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: six he was in prison in Rome and he drank

452
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: some coffee that turned out to have some cyanide in it. Yeah,

453
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: I know. Ye too long you had another dead body

454
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: that the death was ruled a suicide. That seems wrong, Yeah, suspicious. Yeah,

455
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: but you know, if if they can get barbituates in prison,

456
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: why can't they get Sandy. Yeah? Absolutely, Okay, it doesn't

457
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: make any sense to me either way. Yeah, I know,

458
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: I know. So let's see. I don't think we're gonna

459
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: have another dead body for a little bit here. So yeah,

460
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: if you if you want to take a break and

461
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom and feel free, Yeah, well, there's

462
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: a lot more we can talk about about the whole

463
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: all the financials living maybe that's not there. Yeah, that's

464
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: not it's really confusing. It would take a long time,

465
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: I think as a team would be describing this lightly.

466
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: I kind of want to go into it, Okay three

467
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: hours later. Yeah, and it's not even about the unsolved

468
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: part of this mystery inside deals and loopholes, and of

469
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: course that's a lot of it. We don't know a

470
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. Besides the

471
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 1: missing funds, there have also been claims that Calbi was

472
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: laundering funds from the mafia and perhaps even running investments

473
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: for them. Uh. There are also theories out there about

474
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: a secret Masonic lodge called Propaganda. Is that do a

475
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: in Italian? It's basically Propagantitudes and Propaganda du A, also

476
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: known as P two. Um. He did have dealings with

477
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: P two but I'll talk a little bit more about

478
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: that later. There have been claims that the founder or

479
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: the leader of Propaganda to had it was part of

480
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: the conspiracy to murder of Calvie. I don't know about

481
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: the evidence for that. There's also some evidence that all

482
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: he was involved in funneling money from the Vatican too.

483
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: Solidarity in Poland, believe it or not, Solidarity was a

484
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: political movement. They were. Yeah, they were a labor union. Yeah,

485
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: labor union that became a political movement, the first labor

486
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: union that wasn't controlled by a communist government. Yeah. And

487
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: they yeah, and they they managed to actually overturn because

488
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: they had I think in their first year they went

489
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: from nobody to ten million members or something like huge

490
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: from start date to just before their anniversary date. It's amazing. Yeah.

491
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's quite an amazing story. But that's not

492
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: a mystery, so we're not going to talk about that. Yeah.

493
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: So okay, now that we've talked all about all about

494
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: his financial dealings with the Vatican, one would assume that

495
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: he had a life insurance policy. If he did. He did,

496
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: quite that's a quite good guess. He had policy worth

497
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: about ten million bucks. He was Yeah, of course the

498
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: insurance company because well it was a suicide. It was

499
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: a suicide, they wouldn't pay. And then it was later

500
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: ruled maybe a suicide. They still wouldn't pay because hey,

501
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: we don't know, huh. And so yeah, they probably claimed

502
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: like having a life as a pre existing condition. Yeah,

503
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, being alive as a pre existing condition.

504
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: So when you die like that, there's nothing we could

505
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: do about it. Can't die anyway, Sorry, guys, We'll just

506
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: have to keep them premiums. But Calby's wife and his

507
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: son Carlo hired a private detective agency called Coroll Associates

508
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: to investigate the case. And actually there was a guy

509
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: named Jeffrey Katz who headed the investigation, and he wrote

510
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: an interesting article about it in the Telegraph of London

511
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: some years in the early two thousands. I don't know

512
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: if you saw that article or not. I think I did. Yeah,

513
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: good article, but well worth reading. Uh. They decided that

514
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: they were they were going through all kinds of records

515
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: and everything. But they decided also to recreate the suicide.

516
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: So they tracked down the contracting company that originally put

517
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: up the scaffolding and didn't work on the bridge, and

518
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: they still had the scaffolding, the very same scaffolding as before.

519
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: You don't just throw that stuff away. It's expensive, yeah,

520
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: So they graciously loaned it to Jeffrey Cats and his

521
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: and his team and they set it up underneath the

522
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: bridge just like it had been set up in nineteen two.

523
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: And that's by the way, it was in when this

524
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: that when they hired this when when they finally did

525
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: the recreation. Uh, Kelvie's shoes were custom made, and he

526
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: had them made several pairs of their time. Of course, yeah,

527
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: as he would. So his white still had a few

528
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: extra pairs of these exact same shoes laying around, so

529
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: she gave them the cats. They hired a stunt man

530
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: who was about his height and size and weight cats. Yeah,

531
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: he was about his height and had his way. He

532
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: put out a suit and tie and put on Kelvie's

533
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: shoes and climbed out over the scaffolding, just like Calvin

534
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: would have done. Did they did they stuff a bunch

535
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: of masonry and he pants. Yeah, you know, I don't

536
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: know about that. Safety reasons probably not. Yeah, it seems

537
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: like it's important though, well the way it was be

538
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: the way it would be kind of important. I mean

539
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: it might he didn't mention what they did there. They

540
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: might have added some extra weight. I mean there's ways

541
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: without doing something that's comesome as bricks something. Yeah, exactly,

542
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: there's other ways to add weight besides that, or you

543
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: could just pick a stunt man who you know weighs

544
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: a bit more. Anyway, after after this guy went out

545
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: there and he actually walked out all all kinds of

546
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: different paths pathways on the on the scaffolding, because Calby

547
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: obviously could have taken different path pathways. And then they

548
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: took the shoes and they immersed in the water for

549
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: a while. Whatever. So if he went into the water

550
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: at almost two two am and then he was found

551
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: at seven thirty am, but then of course it took

552
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: a while for the London River Police to get there

553
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: and cut the body down. So probably good eight hours? Yeah,

554
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: good eight hours in the water. And so uh, they

555
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: immersed the shoes and water for a similar period of time,

556
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: then remove them, dried them out, uh, and then put

557
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: them into a microscope and what they found is specks

558
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: of rust and paint for the scalfol did they okay?

559
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: But I guess here's my next question. Was it moving

560
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: water that they immersed it in or was it standing

561
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: standing water? Because it would if it were standing water,

562
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: it would make more sense that the flex would be

563
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: left on. But if it was running water, running rushing

564
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: past I would think it would be less likely. Um question,

565
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure how swiftly that the Thames moves,

566
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: but even a little moving. First, Yeah, that's true. I

567
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: don't know if they immersed it in any sort of floor,

568
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, I probably just dead water. But something I

569
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: forgot to mention is that after they dried the shoes off,

570
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: they took a wire brush to the soles and actually

571
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: brushed them off pretty good. So you yeah, you know,

572
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: I'm saying all this staunchly believing that he didn't kill

573
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: himself anyway, So it's not Yeah, I was gonna say.

574
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: The the other thing that we could ask is and

575
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because I also don't believe that he

576
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: did it is okay, Well, if the stuntman is taken

577
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: different paths, was he putting on a different pair of

578
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: shoes every time? That's the same pair of shoes walking

579
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 1: a path five times, You're gonna show much more than

580
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. It only doesn't want Yeah, that's

581
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: that's and that's true enough. But but there's gonna be

582
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: other It's not like called what's his name called thank

583
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: you put on a brand new pair of shoes to

584
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: go kill himself. Know, But what I mean is that

585
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: if the stunt man takes root. One sees how that works. No,

586
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I'm I just there would

587
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: have been other stuff on. Yeah, and I would have

588
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: been rocks and dirt and assphalt in the whole nine yards. Yeah,

589
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not really sure if when they did this,

590
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: if they had him go out one way and then

591
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: they and then they immersed the shoes and then they

592
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: dried them out and looked at him, and they hadn't

593
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: go out another way. That would have taken forever to

594
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: do that. But even the fact that they found any

595
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: even after a wire brushing, that's they found. They found

596
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: rust and paint flex and of course the police still

597
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: had still had the original shoes in their possession and

598
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: they had a look at those and they found nothing.

599
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: They found no rust, no paint. So how did you

600
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: get there? Then? So how did you get to onto

601
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the scaffolding? Well, how did he get to where he died?

602
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: How did he get to where he died? Yes, if

603
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: he didn't go over the scaffolding in the bridge, then

604
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: well the popular thinking is that he was brought there

605
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: by a boat, right because the tide was out, The

606
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: tide was kind of the tide was not quite the

607
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: tide was not high tide when he went in. The

608
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: tide was pretty close to low when they found him. Yeah,

609
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: but it was much higher when he would have gone in. Yeah,

610
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: it was higher when he would have gone in. Yes,

611
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: so it could have been Yeah, pretty easy to bring

612
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: him rope over a piece of scaffolding. Yeah, from a boat. Yeah,

613
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: so he was probably brought to that point on a boat.

614
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: He was probably already dead. Strangled him on the boat,

615
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: or maybe before he got it, even got on the boat.

616
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: I was almost thinking of, did either of you guys

617
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: watch Deadwood? Yeah, do you remember the pilot episode where

618
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: he throws a rope over the walkway and the guy's

619
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: just standing there, and he just hoists him up, but

620
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: then throws his own body weight on him and pulls

621
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: him down to to do the deed that way, I

622
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: can almost see that, you know, let the current drag

623
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: the boat and just hold him in place. That's going

624
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: to cause the constriction that you need cut off an airway.

625
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: But it's not gonna it's not so sharp that it's

626
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: gonna break his neck. Correct. It's with the Thames is

627
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: at high, it's still a slow moving river. So you're

628
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: just you're just pulling against it. And if you've ever

629
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: been in a little boat and just hung onto a

630
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: tree branch and it's gently moving river, you're like, well,

631
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: this actually is kind of pulling me a lot harder

632
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: than I would have expected. I could see that if

633
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: all that was focused on with a rope. Yeah, I mean,

634
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: this is conjecture, I know, but yeah, I know, so

635
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: uh so, yeah, anyway, but that's what everybody thinks is

636
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: it was the whole thing about he was out of

637
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: strangled on on the spot or somewhere else. Nobody really knows.

638
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: I guess we never will. Um And I wanted to

639
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about propaganda too, and how they

640
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: got involved with this whole thing. The guy in charge

641
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: of that was Licio Gilly, And it's been claimed that

642
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: P two is kind of a state within the state

643
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: and had with a Masonic laws that had a thousand

644
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: members or nearly a thousand members, who are all very

645
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: high powered people in Italian society, and uh so obviously

646
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: it was the thing to belong to. I'm kind of

647
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: suspecting that Gale was actually just a huge fraud. And well,

648
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: because I read that, I read the stuff about him.

649
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to see what it is that that's

650
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: leading you to think that. Well, um, uh. The Italian

651
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: Parliament actually set up a commission to investigate P two

652
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: and they looked at a lot of Gillies records and stuff.

653
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: And he had records of, like I said, nearly a

654
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: thousand people who were members of parliament, magistrates, generals in

655
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: the in the service, the heads of intelligence services, all

656
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: regular leading businessmen, all kinds of people, high powered people. Uh.

657
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: And it was this commission that called P you a

658
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: state within a state, at least based on Gliese files.

659
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is is a lot of

660
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: the people that were named in the files denied being

661
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: members of of P two. P two didn't act like

662
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: an ordinary Masonic lodge. That is, they didn't have meetings

663
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: so all the members could get to know each other.

664
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: In fact, most of the members had no idea who

665
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: any of the other members were, and only Gallen knew that.

666
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: So they really weren't this sort of secret society apparently. Uh.

667
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: And so it's really hard to say if it if

668
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: it really was real, or if it was just a

669
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: calm game. But and he he had some weird things

670
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: going on, and he saw some of the oh yeah

671
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: stuff he wrote about wanting to change the way the

672
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: government was run and throw over everybody that was empowered.

673
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: I mean, he really I would almost say it bordered

674
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: a bid on megalomania. I would say, yeah. But the

675
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: important thing about P two is is that as long

676
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: as enough people believed all this stuff, then it was.

677
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: It was a great thing for Gali because he could

678
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: make a lot of money by acting as a go between.

679
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: Uh and and sometimes he probably his services probably actually

680
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: did come in useful. Uh So back to Robertal calving Um,

681
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, he was arrested in nine one. He

682
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: felt at the time that he had spent two months

683
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: in prison, of course, and he felt at the time

684
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: that there was really kind of this class war against

685
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: bankers going on in Italy, and so he wanted to

686
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: buy himself a little a little bit of protection. Uh

687
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: And so he wanted to Lisio Gale and we was

688
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: in charge of P two was Glee told Calvin in

689
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: order to help him, he needed to bribe a bunch

690
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: of high ranking Italian Italian parliament members, and of course, yeah,

691
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: so he told him to transfer twenty one million dollars

692
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: to a South American bank, and he was going to

693
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: funnel that money back through intermediaries and to Italian politicians

694
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: who would in turn hopefully interviewed with bank regulators. Yeah,

695
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: and there was also a series of loans that Manco Ambrosiano,

696
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: uh there, Luxembourg Subsidi, I should say, made to a

697
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: Animanian shell company that was also owned by Gilly. And

698
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get in all the shady financial

699
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: movers that they that they pulled, but Glee was basically

700
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: able to pocket over a hundred billion dollars of that

701
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: those loans and so huge transfers of cash to him.

702
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: But in return he didn't really provide him provide Calary

703
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: with any protection. He didn't call He was not able

704
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: to call off the dogs or anything else, which is

705
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: why I think it might have just the whole P

706
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: two thing might have just been a big swing. Basically,

707
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: are either of you watching this season of True Detective? No,

708
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: not yet, wait until it's done, Boilers. This is very familiar.

709
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: Oh really maybe they lifted it from this? Yeah? Are

710
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: you guys confused? All that's good. I want to hear

711
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: about what happened, Like, who could have done this or

712
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: did he do it? I'm trying as I'm ready for theories. Okay,

713
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about theories. And I've got a whole

714
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff to what we'll just skip that

715
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: goes straight to the theories. Okay, okay, alright, yeah, okay, alright.

716
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: Theory number one, it was suicide. We kind of that, Yeah,

717
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: I know, I know. Uh. Theory number two it was murder.

718
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: But why do you guys think it was murder? Yes, yeah, okay,

719
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say who, but I think it was

720
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: that we're in Devon territory. Here two headings. It was suicide, No,

721
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: it was murder. Subheading, Yeah, it was murdered because she

722
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: is a bullet list. I know it's catching on. So

723
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: the question isn't then why number one Calvary was laundering

724
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: money for the mafia and possibly investing some of their

725
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: money and he lost a bunch of their money. So

726
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: they often so they often makes sense, that's the theory.

727
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: But there were there were some mob type people who

728
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: were involved who were big times suspects in his murder.

729
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: What what is it that? What's the name of the

730
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: mob in Italy? The COSA Nostra. Yeah, that's it. That's it,

731
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: because they're they're pretty notorious for making people disappear. Yeah,

732
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: or maybe in this case, you know, I mean, that's

733
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: the thing is if the mob had done it, you

734
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: would think they would have just like killed him and

735
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, maybe weighed his body down and dumped into

736
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: town's instead of very publicly hanging it like that. Then

737
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: maybe I wanted to send a message, Yeah, I was

738
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: gonna say, but it's a pretty strong message what they're wanting. Yeah,

739
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: So our next theory as to why I would be

740
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: propaganda too, and and Mr Gale the motive I'm not

741
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: so sure about. But I'm kind of thinking that Calby

742
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: gave Gli a lot of money, a hell of a

743
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: lot of money, and basically got nothing in return. So

744
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: getting rid of Calby really would have been a good

745
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: way to stop him from asking for a refund or

746
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: suing him for fraud. But I've also read isn't it

747
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: wasn't it? P? Two that the members would call themselves

748
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: Blackfriars And so the fact that he was hung from

749
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: Blackfriars Bridge, people have drawn that connection to make it

750
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: P two because there's that one to one naming thing.

751
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: And I don't see anything other than that as a

752
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: correlation based on what we I've read in the research

753
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: you talked, I heard of that same connection. I don't

754
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was I don't know, um what

755
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: brought Cali at to London? If he was manipulated into

756
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: going to London, I say, Flavio Corbonian Carboni, who apparently

757
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: had connections to P two, possibly had connections. There's rumored

758
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: to have connections. So if if Carboni, for example, suggested

759
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: going to London, it could have been specifically for the

760
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: purpose of taking him to Blackfriars Bridge and hanging him

761
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: from the bridge. That seems it just seems like they

762
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: it just it seems like they're you're over complicating your

763
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: your whack job. I was gonna say that they put

764
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: him on a boat and they put him into Yugoslavia.

765
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot of rule. I mean, even

766
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: in the eighties, you know, communisms was still in effect,

767
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: but you know, you could kind of do what you

768
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: wanted in those countries, and it seems like an easy

769
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: place to wax somebody. They put him on a boat,

770
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: just push him overboard, right, I mean, if you're gonna

771
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: just kill somebody. I go through all of the channels too.

772
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's I don't know. I think that's

773
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: one of the things we run into with these whole

774
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: secret society conspiracy theory things all the time, where it's like, well,

775
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: they had they had to do it this way because

776
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: it's this way, and it's like, well, but no, they

777
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: probably didn't. I mean, if the evil bad guy had

778
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: to confront him face to face and tell him he

779
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: was going to die after he admitted he had done

780
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: him wrong. It's just like the James Bond thing right

781
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: where they're like, we're going to have this laser that

782
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: moved super slowly on the room before actually died already

783
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: actually does that doesn't happen. You gotta you gotta love

784
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: that nobody explains their entire master plan and then shoots shoot.

785
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But anyway, I think that's silly. Yeah, I

786
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: think it's a little silly too. Also, you can't exactly

787
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: sue for fraud if you were like, hey, here's a

788
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: bunch of money, do something to sketch you with bribe

789
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of people. Yeah, exactly so, but you defrauded me,

790
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: you didn't actually bribe those people like you obeyed the law.

791
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 1: You just took my money because I'm a jerk. Yeah,

792
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: well I could have also, you know, he could have

793
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: also done in his way to shut up chut calvy

794
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: up that. That seems to be the overriding thing. You're

795
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: shutting calviy up. Because he knew a lot, he knew

796
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: a lot of sensitive information. Well, yeah he was. He

797
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: was involved in a lot of suspicious dealings. I'll call

798
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: him suspicious. And I have read a lot that people

799
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: were worried that he was threatening to talk and basically,

800
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, pull everything out from underneath the rug and

801
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: expose everything. So somebody did him in to protect that information,

802
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, Jelly or Gilly or the

803
00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: Vatican or the coast of Nostra. I mean, somebody did

804
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: it for that reason, most likely, all right, next one,

805
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of people have accused the Vatican of

806
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 1: arranging for his murder. I can see that, Yeah, because

807
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: obviously he knew a lot of their business. He had

808
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: made some he had made some threats about exposing his

809
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: dealings with the bad with the Vatican Bank to Paul Marcinkus,

810
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: And so that's why. That's why some people are thinking

811
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: things along these lines. It seems like the if you

812
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: were in a lot of trouble for something money related,

813
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: and you said to the investigators, Okay, I know you

814
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: think I'm a big fish, but I can give you

815
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: the Vatican. That'd be a pretty good plea bargain or

816
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: deal or whatever that you would make. And I can

817
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: see being really scared of that as the Vatican saying

818
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: he knows and can prove all of the kind of

819
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 1: shady stuff we've been doing to make a ton of money,

820
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 1: to make a bunch of money. He can expose us.

821
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: And he's in the position in which he would try

822
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: to expose us. Better take care of that. Yeah, I mean, so, yeah,

823
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: the Vatican has the bad guy. Oh no, no, no,

824
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: But you know there's you know, in the in the Church, obviously,

825
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: there's occasionally going to be the bad apple, a bad

826
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: apple or too you know, it happens, Well, there's there's

827
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: been quite a few of them that have been involved

828
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: in their financial matters. I don't know what it is

829
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: about being involved in the Vatican and suddenly you're put

830
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: in charge of large amounts of funds and every one

831
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: of them just goes hog wild and ignores every rule around,

832
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: just like I've got to make the money. It really is.

833
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: It's crazy. The church actually has been hard up in

834
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: the in the past, they've been pretty hard up for cash,

835
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: and there I think there's hard they're probably hard up

836
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: for cash now. Actually, well, the good news is the

837
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: person in charge of that church right now seems to

838
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: want to do the right thing with the money. So

839
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: we will see how that all pans out. No longer

840
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: wearing Versacci red slippers. Good for him. Sorry, Oh yeah,

841
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: well you have the day the people who were aware

842
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: of all these all these various dealings, where Carlo Kanisi

843
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: was the original head of the bank he died, he

844
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: had died quite a while before this. And then our

845
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: Calvi who succeeded him in the bank. And then Calby's

846
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: secretary who was got Karosher I believe this was pronounced.

847
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: She's the assistant who jumped or fell or was pushed

848
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: to her death the day of the bank failed from

849
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: the fifth story, right, Yeah, those are the three people

850
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: that really would have known everything about the goings on

851
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: with the Vatican Bank and all of their all their

852
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: phony offshore companies and stuff. Hang on, Hang on a second.

853
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: You talked about earlier that the secretary had seen him

854
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: in his office, taken a whole bunch of papers, and

855
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: put him in a black briefcase. Did they find that

856
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: totally disappeared from the story. What happened with the black

857
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: brief disappeared? You know, it's interesting his luggage was. He

858
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: had a couple of suitcases which were found in his

859
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: hotel room, but the black briefcase was gone and never

860
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: to be seen again. It sort of pops up a

861
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: little bit later. But yeah, okay, let's get there, but later,

862
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: are we not? Yeah, at last, he just got killed

863
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,879
Speaker 1: for money here and simple. But he had a lot

864
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: of money on him, but a whole lot more money

865
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: in other places. So why wouldn't you take the money

866
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: that was on him too? That would kind of make sense,

867
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't it. Yes, Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'm not gonna

868
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: go club a guy and then steal his offshore account

869
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: and leave the million dollars it's in his pocket. Actually

870
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: went around go spend that now. Yeah, there's literally nothing

871
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: I have to do to take that money except for

872
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: take it out of his pocket. Never thought about this.

873
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: Let's continue. Yeah, yeah, Well, let's let's talk about some

874
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: of the people who were who have been accused rather suspicious.

875
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: Christ's Flavio car car Bony, the guy who facilitated as

876
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: to escape from Italy. Next does a mafia boss named

877
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: Pipo Ko I think I was pronounced who was who

878
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: was actually tried for ordering Calby's murder? Um, And I'll so,

879
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: Flavio Carboni is said to have been involved in muddy

880
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: laundering for Pippo cow Ko. Pippo Carlo, you're right, season

881
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: make it down to Italian okay? Uh? And the foreman

882
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: also said that Flavio Carboni was an essential link between

883
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: Carlo and the P two lodge. But there's those PC

884
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: people again. Uh. Mafio So mafia also turned in former

885
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: named Francesco Mantol. Yeah, I think that's how it's pronounced.

886
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: Pointed the finger once again at Pippo Carlo, but also

887
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: at Lecio Gali had a P two and claiming they

888
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: had ordered Calvi's murder. I don't. I had no idea

889
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: what his evidence was. That was for that Italian prosecutors.

890
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: And by the way, by this time, everybody's on the

891
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: same page. It was murdered, right, did the insurance company

892
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: finally pay out. I don't know why I was concerned

893
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: about that. Unfortunately, for the Emily, they had that they

894
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: had to pay out about half of that to the

895
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: investigators that they had hired, because the investigators had spent

896
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: tremendous resources and you know, not just recreating the murder,

897
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 1: but but traveling the world and documents and witnesses, traveling

898
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: for business to Panama and the Yeah. So they so

899
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 1: that their tab came to a fairly large amount of money.

900
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: But in Italian prosecutors charged Carlo and also Flavio Carboni,

901
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: alongside some guys named Ernesto and Dealt, Dealt, Levy and

902
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: Francesco di Carlo. There was a very very long trial

903
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: which basically was at the end they decided there was

904
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: insufficient evidence to lock anybody up over this stuff. Yeah,

905
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: there was more than one trial like that. Yeah, No,

906
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: there were there were, Yeah, there were other ones that. Uh.

907
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: Eventually Francisco di Carlo, who apparently was a hit man,

908
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: at one point returning format and he did say that

909
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: Kalo people Klo had and approached him about murdering Calby,

910
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 1: but that he hadn't carried it out. Uh, supposedly Kaylo

911
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: had gotten a word to a third party to De

912
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: Carlo that he needed to have somebody whacked. And by

913
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: the time Di Carlo actually got in touch with Kaylo,

914
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: because I remember the c at two people, nobody has

915
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: cell phones. It's not not as easy to get ahold

916
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: of your back your office, the secretary hands you the message.

917
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So by the time, yeah, by the time

918
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: you got back in touch with Kalo, which was like

919
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: a couple of days later, Kaylo told him the problem

920
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: had already been taken care of. So um. But on

921
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: the other hand, British investigators did find one dollar deposit

922
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: and made it to the Carlo's bank accounts on June

923
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: sixt the day before the murder. So and also Francesco

924
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: di Carlo did have the nickname of Frankie the Strangler. Oh,

925
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: you're kidding me. That was that, that was his name.

926
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: That was okay, So what where else can and go

927
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: from there? I mean, so obviously he did it. Yeah,

928
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: what's that? No, it's not, it's not totally obvious. I

929
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: think that's that's a good possibility. He was living in

930
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: London at the time. Uh yeah, And obviously you know

931
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: he would have an incentive to lie and say something

932
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: in the order of yeah, yeah, he asked me to

933
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: do it, but I didn't do it, you know. And

934
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: there was that hundred that hundred thousand dollar bank deposit.

935
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:26,919
Speaker 1: There's a down payment. Yeah yeah. Another trial happened began

936
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: in nine two seven. It was the prosecutors had announced

937
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: that they thought the mafia had assassinated Calby to stopping

938
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: blackmailing a number of senior political figures linked to the

939
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: PT Lodge as well as the Vatican Bank, because there

940
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: were were there were hints that he was he was

941
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 1: actually going to blackmail. Then we had brought to talk

942
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: about threatening to squeal. Yeah, exactly. That trial, as as

943
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: I said, begin in two thousand and seven was it

944
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: was people Kulo from Flavio Carboni deal to Levy and

945
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: this time calby bodyguard, uh Silvano Vittor was included. Um.

946
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: They of course all denied being involved, and eventually they

947
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: got off again because of not enough evidence. And that

948
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: was that. I don't know, and I don't know if

949
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: there's gonna be any more trials at this point or not,

950
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: if people involved in this whole case. You're getting kind

951
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: of old and so it's it's extremely difficult to run

952
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: down any witnesses forty years later, thirty years later. I mean,

953
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think, you know,

954
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: I don't think we're ever gonna know who actually did

955
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: who actually carried out the actual murder. I think that

956
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: Flavio Carboni had a part in it. I don't know

957
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: that he actually committed the murder itself. Yeah, because Roberto

958
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: cality was totally dependent on Carboni to make all his

959
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: arrangements and then to keep him hidden in London in

960
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: various other places. And obviously Carboni had access to him

961
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: and he's the only person who knew his whereabouts besides

962
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: his veto or the bodyguard. Uh So, Carboni, because Calby

963
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: trusted him, could easily have gotten him to come with

964
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: them for some pretext, like say, I mentioned that he

965
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: had said that he was he had found a flat

966
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: for him to move into, but that was actually not true,

967
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: and I found him a flat, So say, if you

968
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: call um, won't say, hey, packer bags, we're gonna move

969
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: to a new flat and get you some nicer accommodations

970
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: than Calby would have gone with him. And so I'm

971
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm guessing under that what you've just said there is

972
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: that the idea was we're gonna go look at the flat.

973
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: Knot let's move to the flat because his bags are

974
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: all stilt hotel. Yeah, but his bags were packed. He

975
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: told him to pack his bag because he would he

976
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: found a flat to move to. Yeah. Yeah, and so

977
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: Carboni and so Colby would have just gone with him

978
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and he could have just delivered him

979
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: to the hitman who would have taken care of all arrest.

980
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: Or he could have been the hitman. Yeah, or maybe

981
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: he was. You know, I don't know that he has

982
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: a record for that kind of thing or not. But

983
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: what his motive would have been money because remember Calby

984
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: had given him a whole bunch of money, and he

985
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually it was just expense money. It wasn't

986
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: actually a gift, It was just to cover expenses. So

987
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: if he spent less, he had to give it back. Yeah.

988
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: So if if yeah, if he hadn't spent it all,

989
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: then he would he would probably have had to give

990
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: most of all of it back. I mean, I'm sure

991
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: he would have gotten a tip for his help with services.

992
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, eleven million bucks is a

993
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: pretty good money. Yeah, that's a pretty good moments ago.

994
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: Another suspicious thing is that both Carboni and Vider left

995
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: England very early on the morning of the eighteen body

996
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: was found on the morning they lounged at the same time,

997
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: if not before the body was found. Yeah. Yeah, it

998
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: seems suspicious. It seems a little suspicious. Yeah. Uh. And

999
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: at last of all, the black briefcase makes its reappearance. Um. Yeah,

1000
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: he seems to have wound up in possession of the

1001
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: black briefcase, Carbonian Flavio carbon He appears to have And

1002
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: it's this is and the guy named Edward j. Epstein

1003
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: wrote wrote a long article about this, and he's he's

1004
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: an investigative reporter. He used to work for Vanity Fair magazine. Yeah,

1005
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: and he's written a number of books and stuff. Uh.

1006
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: And he did a long article about this, and he

1007
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: talked to an investigating magistrate in Italy named Judge how Margie.

1008
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: I think that's how it's pronounced. Yeah. This judge was

1009
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 1: wasn't looking into the Calby affair. And he told Epstein

1010
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: that the Vatican had acknowledged to him that they had

1011
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: given Carboni two million dollars for certain documents. Uh and uh.

1012
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: He had apparently come across evidence of the Vatican was

1013
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: considerable considering paying him an additional forty million dollars, presumably

1014
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: for the rest of the contents of that black briefcase. Well,

1015
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: so wouldn't You wouldn't even have to have murdered him

1016
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: for money, if you know, he said, Oh, I have

1017
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: this briefcase that's worth a lot of money, murdering money. Sorry,

1018
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: when did when did the Vatican pay him for the documents? Yeah?

1019
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: That I'm not Surestine didn't give any dates as to

1020
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: precisely the judge either. The judge didn't tell him exactly

1021
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: what it was. Maybe just didn't know. One would assume

1022
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: you would wait a little bit. You wouldn't immediately like

1023
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: two days later, Yeah, show up with these documents. But yeah,

1024
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: so did did Flavio Carboni blackmail the Pope? Yes? Yeah,

1025
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: sounds like so. You guys have many further thoughts any

1026
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: more theories. Yeah, he was definitely murdered. Carboni probably had

1027
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: a hand in it, whether or not it was you know,

1028
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: he happened to find these documents afterwards, or it was

1029
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: motivated by them. I think, Yeah, I definitely had a

1030
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: hand in it if he didn't do it himself, yeah,

1031
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: I think so. And his his bodyguard probably at least

1032
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: knew something. Yeah, of course he would. There's just seems

1033
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: to be a whole lot of people involved with this thing,

1034
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: this whole thing that could have a little blood on

1035
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: their hands. Yeah. The only thing that I know that

1036
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: there's so much evidence pointing to certain people just because

1037
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: they're so involved in it. The one thing I couldn't

1038
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: help but wonder the whole time is going through this

1039
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: is the unknown third party, and that is somebody who

1040
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 1: is investing heavily in banking, and of course his bank

1041
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: is going under seeing him and recognizing him, because well

1042
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: Joe knows, and I think you know, Devon his his

1043
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: great disguise to travel abroad, his mustache. He shaved his mustache,

1044
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, not not really disguising himself much. Although I

1045
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: will tell you I have a friend who just today,

1046
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: I've only ever known him with a beard, and he

1047
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: shaved it all off. And I literally didn't. I see

1048
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: him every day I work with him, even it was

1049
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: his upper lip, I didn't suddenly I didn't recognize him.

1050
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: I thought he looked a lot different without the mustache.

1051
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: I see. I although the only picture of him that

1052
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: I saw without the mustache was the one where he

1053
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: was dead and laying on the side to the bridge.

1054
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: He's probably gonna wear the same kind of clothes, He's

1055
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: going to act and speak the same way. So I

1056
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: I always just wonder if it's somebody happens to go,

1057
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's that that jerk that lost me

1058
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: all that money. We're gonna go find him and we're

1059
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: going to talk to him, and then something happens. I mean,

1060
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: do I think that's it? But I still can't help

1061
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: but wonder he was keeping a pretty low profile. Yeah,

1062
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: I think that the odds that's some random dude just

1063
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: ran across him, you know, I think it's more likely

1064
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: that probably the people surrounding him just killed him or

1065
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: arranged for him to be killed, or got paid to bribe, Yeah,

1066
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: say a bribe to accidentally look the other way while

1067
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: he was walking down the street. Yeah. So yeah, it's

1068
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: unfortunate for Roberto Calary. You know, I don't know that

1069
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: he was a bad guy at all, but he's got

1070
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: kind of involved with the wrong kind of people, and uh,

1071
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: everything kind of went south. That's what happens to a

1072
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: lot of those guys is that they want to make

1073
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: a couple of extra bucks, so they'll just shine on

1074
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: the fact that you do all these other things and

1075
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: then comes back to bite them in the end. Yeah,

1076
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: it's so sad. Yeah, anyway, any other thoughts, Well, hey,

1077
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: let's just wind us down then, all right. Yeah, Well,

1078
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure you all of you out there, I've got

1079
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: thoughts about this. In fact, maybe some of you your

1080
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: MafA Yosa and you'd like to actually, you know, cleue

1081
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: us in and some of the some of the actual

1082
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: stuff that happened. If that is the case, you can

1083
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: send us an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail

1084
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: dot com. We also have a website of course, where

1085
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: you can download our episodes and you can also leave comments,

1086
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: and we all have links to all various articles that

1087
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: you can read about the mystery. Our website is Thinking

1088
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast dot com and of course you can also

1089
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: find us on iTunes. If you do get us from iTunes,

1090
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave us a review, hopefully a nice review.

1091
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: Moving up the charts lately in iTunes yea a kind nice? Yeah,

1092
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: I like that. What else? If you're if you're streaming us, well,

1093
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: you can stream us from practically anywhere. I don't, then

1094
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: I can't recommend any particular one over another, so just

1095
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: grab one at random. We're on Facebook, Thinking Sideways podcast

1096
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: on Facebook, so please like us, follow us, friend us

1097
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter. You can find us what we are thinking

1098
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: sideways without the g so thinking. And that's about it,

1099
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: except for, of course, your Patreon. We're on Patreon now.

1100
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: If you want to sponsor us, you can. You don't

1101
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: have to, no obligation at all, but that's patreon dot com.

1102
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: I think it's the forward slash Thinking Sideways. Yeah, and

1103
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: that's about it for this week. Any further thoughts, no,

1104
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: all right, well goodbye everybody hanging there, guys,