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Speaker 1: can happen today? I don't know stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answa ton Hey, thereon, Welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as
Speaker 1: always by Steve and Devin, and we're here for another
Speaker 1: cool mystery h this one from the lovely country of Italy.
Speaker 1: The Motherland. Yeah, that's right, Devon's motherland. And Devon has
Speaker 1: been indispensable in pronunciation for this episode. So that's like
Speaker 1: literally all I've given to this. The rest of it
Speaker 1: has been kind of negative, like, oh, are you kidding?
Speaker 1: We're doing this one? Not interested? Now? This one's about
Speaker 1: a serial killer who roamed the streets of Florence in
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. You may have heard of him. But
Speaker 1: before I talk about it, word a warning. There's some
Speaker 1: really kind of disturbing mutilation here that a lot of
Speaker 1: people will find disturbing, and because really you should, because
Speaker 1: it is and if little years are around, probably should
Speaker 1: save it for later. Yeah, my kids for the next hour,
Speaker 1: just your muff. Yeah, you have seen the script. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be two hours. I'm gonna talk fast. Days later.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk really one pair of hands later. Okay,
Speaker 1: with that out of the way, let's talk about murder
Speaker 1: and mayhem. We're talking, of course, about an Italian serial killer.
Speaker 1: So who else could we be talking about but the
Speaker 1: monster of Florence. Yeah, this is a big one. And
Speaker 1: by the way, this was suggested by Paulo. Paulo, thanks
Speaker 1: very much. I assume you must be our other Italian listener.
Speaker 1: There's Luigi and others of you. So hey, dude, thanks
Speaker 1: a lot. We appreciate it. I hope you're still listening,
Speaker 1: by the way. But the Monster, and there have been
Speaker 1: other Italian serial killers, by the way, and some pretty
Speaker 1: good ones, but the Monster is really the star infamous.
Speaker 1: Oh he's huge. He's Jack the Ripper, He's the Italian
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper and uh, which always gets the public's attention. Uh.
Speaker 1: The other thing about it was he was really praising
Speaker 1: and the way he operated. I mean he would go
Speaker 1: and kill people, like right next to a road and
Speaker 1: stuff in view where a car could just drive on by.
Speaker 1: He's mutilating a corpse. You know that he was. He
Speaker 1: was pretty bold. Yeah, he in that regard. He makes
Speaker 1: me think of like the it's the text, are Canna
Speaker 1: Moon like murders? Yeah, I kind of like that, except
Speaker 1: a lot more sick and twisted. Well, I was just
Speaker 1: talking about being willing to do it when your a
Speaker 1: road and all of that fear. Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: The Monster has a much bigger body count though it's
Speaker 1: a lot bigger. Uh. Another thing about and it still
Speaker 1: captures the attention of people is that he never got caught,
Speaker 1: which means there's a pretty good chance that he may
Speaker 1: still be walking around among us. Today, which is a
Speaker 1: little scary creeps me out. That's why I don't go
Speaker 1: to that country. Yeah, I stay away from Italy and all.
Speaker 1: The monster killed between fourteen and sixteen people that we
Speaker 1: know of, and there's a little dispute about one set
Speaker 1: of murders there, which we'll talk about, and that's not
Speaker 1: a record, of course, but it's still a pretty respectable number.
Speaker 1: Respectable is that the word they care? That's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's not respectable though, but yeah, well let's just I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I hopefully people know what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The bulk of the murders took place between nine and
Speaker 1: night five, but there was also in nineteen seventy four
Speaker 1: murder that was connected, and then in nine two, after
Speaker 1: six people have been killed, another connection was made to
Speaker 1: a nineteen sixty eight double murder, which if you include
Speaker 1: that makes sixteen murders all in all. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: start with the first murder first. Yeah, So this happened
Speaker 1: in August one, nineteen sixty eight. The murder ease were
Speaker 1: Antonio Lobianco and Barbara Locchi, who were having sex in
Speaker 1: the front seat of Antonio's Alfa Romeo Barbara's son, Notalino
Speaker 1: made was in the back of the car asleep, So
Speaker 1: that's a little that's a little weird, I guess, I
Speaker 1: think even for the average Italian, that's probably a little weird.
Speaker 1: A little background on the whole thing, because this is
Speaker 1: kind of an important one of the murders. Uh Barbara
Speaker 1: was married to a Starginian immigrant named Stefano Mede. Uh.
Speaker 1: Barbara herself was Sardinian and her marriage syste Hana was
Speaker 1: apparently arranged. She was twenty years older than her and
Speaker 1: apparently very unintelligence from what I have heard, and I
Speaker 1: guess that he was not quite her romantic idea, because
Speaker 1: she really screwed around on him a lot, and although
Speaker 1: later reports said that he actually didn't mind, he was
Speaker 1: actually kind of into it, so like to be cuckolded
Speaker 1: apparently something. Barbara's latest boyfriend was Antonio Lobianco, which is
Speaker 1: why they were together. Antonio was a bricklayer, a very
Speaker 1: recent Stardini an immigrant himself. On the night of the murder,
Speaker 1: Barbara she had a date with Antonio, which involved first
Speaker 1: going to see a horror movie and then heading up
Speaker 1: into the hills for a little lover's rank Lane romance.
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned before, Barbara's son, Notalino, was along
Speaker 1: for the whole date. Barbara was not the mother of
Speaker 1: the year. Not better than leaving him alone home. I
Speaker 1: don't know, taking your taking your six year old kids
Speaker 1: to see a horror movie that seems a little bit well,
Speaker 1: I mean like Creature Creature of the Black Lagoon, like
Speaker 1: you would take your kid to see that. Maybe, I
Speaker 1: guess it depends. I can see where some kids would
Speaker 1: be a little at that age might be a little traumatized.
Speaker 1: But he might not have been, well, he was traumatized
Speaker 1: by a later events. Probably, Yeah, we're talking about that
Speaker 1: here in a second. Uh. And also something about Italian culture.
Speaker 1: Probably most of you have heard this. People tend to
Speaker 1: live at home until they get married, and often even
Speaker 1: after they get married, they still live at home. But
Speaker 1: that makes it kind of tricky to have romance, if
Speaker 1: you know, A yeah, and so, well, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of Italians are Catholic. Oh there's that too, So
Speaker 1: that helps in the living at home situation. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: good point. Okay, Well, anyway, along, Luckily for the youth
Speaker 1: of Italy, somebody invented the car, and then about five
Speaker 1: minutes later, somebody else figured out that you can have
Speaker 1: sex in cars, and so in any given the evening,
Speaker 1: but especially on the weekends, the hills around Florence, Italy
Speaker 1: were full of little dinky Fiat and Alpha's with bumper
Speaker 1: stickers that said, don't come knocking if it's rocking in Italian. Yah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was lots of that going on. And of course
Speaker 1: that's bond. It's a weird little subculture of guys that
Speaker 1: were called Indians by the locals. These were they were
Speaker 1: the lawyers all years. He sculpted around with monocular night
Speaker 1: vision devices and cameras and and spied on all these
Speaker 1: young couples having sex. Just weird in its own way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was, like I said, a whole network of these
Speaker 1: people out there. So what Antonio and Barbara were doing
Speaker 1: really was not at all unusual, except for perhaps a
Speaker 1: kid in the back seat, but also maybe not that,
Speaker 1: maybe not even I don't know, maybe have the whole
Speaker 1: family in the back seat. Probably not mom and dad,
Speaker 1: I hope, because that's the whole reason you're in a
Speaker 1: car to begin with, right, Usually Yeah, But anyway, they
Speaker 1: drove up a dirt road. They were actually outside Floridence
Speaker 1: city limits to the west. They found a nice little
Speaker 1: parking spot next to a stand of cane and proceeded
Speaker 1: to let nature take his course and a little netal
Speaker 1: you know, got a nice biology lessons. Well, he was
Speaker 1: asleep in the back right, if he was asleep, supposedly
Speaker 1: he was asleep. I know, six year olds can often
Speaker 1: sleep through kind of anything. I guess that's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But what, of course Antonio and Barbara didn't know, is
Speaker 1: that somebody was lurking in the cane next to the car.
Speaker 1: Don't don't If it was corn, I wouldn't have been surprised. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not not corn. One of the rear windows of the
Speaker 1: Alpha was rolled down. It was a warm August night.
Speaker 1: Uh and at that time, of course, nobody was all
Speaker 1: that worried about serial killers. Um, but would be one
Speaker 1: of these days, but not quite yet. Somebody came out
Speaker 1: of the cane, tiptote over to the car, stuck automatic
Speaker 1: pistol through the window, and started shooting. In the end,
Speaker 1: Antonio and Barbara were shot four times each, and little Nettie,
Speaker 1: you know, did I mentioned that he was six years old,
Speaker 1: was awakened by some blinding flashes and deafening gunshots, and uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had quite a night. First the horror movie, then
Speaker 1: he sees copulation, and then he witnesses a double murder.
Speaker 1: So I mean, that's quite a it's quite a night.
Speaker 1: I never definitely made an impression on him for the
Speaker 1: rest of his life that would really say. It was
Speaker 1: the last thing on that list is what made the
Speaker 1: biggest impression. But I'm sure next he was seen at
Speaker 1: a house two and a half kilometers down the road saying, quote,
Speaker 1: mommy and uncle are dead in the carne. Apparently she
Speaker 1: called all of her boyfriend were called all of Barbara's
Speaker 1: boyfriends were called uncle. Yeah, so we had a lot
Speaker 1: of uncles. That's I mean, that's probably one of the
Speaker 1: least traumatizing ways to deal with that, right, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? Yeah, I mean until maybe someday he comes
Speaker 1: daddy and like you just explain that to the kid
Speaker 1: and you say, like he's moving at six, it's really
Speaker 1: not an issue, right, But it's easier than saying, like,
Speaker 1: this is my boyfriend. He's replacing daddy. Oh yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know, but it also explains why he's like staying
Speaker 1: over all the time. You should like him, Yeah, all
Speaker 1: uncles do this, right, Yeah, maybe hopefully, hopefully, really hopeful.
Speaker 1: I hope. I'm an uncle and I don't do that well.
Speaker 1: So do we know how he got to Uh No,
Speaker 1: I mean he could have walked. I doubt it. Actually,
Speaker 1: it's the smart kids think that Stefan, his dad Stefano,
Speaker 1: was there and that he took part in the murder
Speaker 1: and that he actually carried him to this house and
Speaker 1: dropped him off. Leno said that a man put him
Speaker 1: on his shoulders, saying a show tune like off a
Speaker 1: TV show that was on I believe, and that guy
Speaker 1: was probably the murderer, but that he carried him all
Speaker 1: to this house and then set him down and put
Speaker 1: him there. And because they say that the doorbell was
Speaker 1: too high for him at a six year old at
Speaker 1: his height who have reached up and hit it, so
Speaker 1: they think that there had to be an adult there
Speaker 1: to push the button and then run away. Sounds likely, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I frankly, you know, I know we may talk
Speaker 1: about this. It sounds like his story changed a lot,
Speaker 1: and he says he doesn't remember anything, and I realistically
Speaker 1: like he was six years old and he saw his
Speaker 1: mom get brutally murdered. So I am not surprised. I mean,
Speaker 1: I make things up from when I was six, and
Speaker 1: they were not traumatic at all, you know, So I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised that he would not have any real memories
Speaker 1: or anything he was willing to identify as real memories
Speaker 1: from that time. Well yeah, i'd be a little fragment
Speaker 1: at the league and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I know that my memory, my memory changed in weird ways.
Speaker 1: I'll go back and check his story that I was
Speaker 1: sure was this way, and I find out I've got
Speaker 1: a lot of details wrong, ye, or I'll you know,
Speaker 1: I'll tell my mom this has been happening a lot
Speaker 1: all like say, oh yeah, I remember when this blah
Speaker 1: blah bla happened. And she's like, you, um, you weren't there.
Speaker 1: You've seen lots of pictures of that. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and those false memories. I invented the memory
Speaker 1: because I've heard the story and seen pictures, and so
Speaker 1: I have put myself in that position. Long story short,
Speaker 1: it's not surprising that his story is all over the map. No,
Speaker 1: not really. But back to our murder um. So, whenever
Speaker 1: a married woman and her lover murdered. Well, who do
Speaker 1: you go look at first? Stefan Stefano, the husband, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the holiday man. At first he claimed that he was
Speaker 1: home in bed sick when the murders took place, but
Speaker 1: that alibi didn't hold up, and then police did a
Speaker 1: paraffin test on him, you know what those are protected,
Speaker 1: checking for a gunshot residue, and they found some of
Speaker 1: that on his right hand, indicating he had fired again
Speaker 1: very recently, and that didn't look so good. He also
Speaker 1: gave conflicting stories, and he sort of sort of started
Speaker 1: admitting that he had been there, but then he claimed
Speaker 1: that a guy named Salvatore Vinci was an actual gunman. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then he changed his story and said the Salvatory brother,
Speaker 1: Francesco Vinci, was the one who pulled the trigger. Um,
Speaker 1: And then he changed his story back again and eventually
Speaker 1: recanted that story. I've always wondered if he was if
Speaker 1: his intelligence was as low as it is made out
Speaker 1: to be in the stuff that I've read. I wonder
Speaker 1: how much of his story was led. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Because that's that's we think. We've talked
Speaker 1: about this before, that it's easy to get a witness
Speaker 1: to start telling you a story the way that they
Speaker 1: think you want them to, because they don't realize that
Speaker 1: they're implicating themselves. Yeah, and uh, and police do sometimes
Speaker 1: have a way of trying to put words in your
Speaker 1: mouth when they interrogate, intentionally or not. Yeah, sometimes they'll
Speaker 1: they'll they'll do sneaky stuff to get you to fest up.
Speaker 1: But uh, well, let me give some background of Salvatory
Speaker 1: and Francesco. They immigrated to Tuscany from Sardinia in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and Salvatore rented a room for a while
Speaker 1: in Stefano and Barbara's house, and so of course he
Speaker 1: became one of Barbara's lovers and an uncle, yeah, an
Speaker 1: uncle yeah. And then later Francesco Salvatori and Francesco, even
Speaker 1: though they were brothers, they actually didn't like each other.
Speaker 1: They were rivals and everything. And so Francesco stole Barbara
Speaker 1: away from Salvatore and became the uncle and became the uncle. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then after that, eventually it's Antonio, who was an
Speaker 1: even more recent immigrant from Sardinia, while he stole her
Speaker 1: away from Francesco, became the last uncle and became the
Speaker 1: last uncle. So this is an episode of my three uncles,
Speaker 1: my more than three probably but uh but in a sense,
Speaker 1: Salvatori and Francesco had a motive from murder, so that
Speaker 1: Stefano jilted lovers and the jilted husband. Yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: uh so and uh. Plus there was some stolen money involved,
Speaker 1: There was some family honor involved, so there were some
Speaker 1: other family members possibly there. It's it's complicated anyway. Salvatore,
Speaker 1: because his name had been mentioned, they brought him down
Speaker 1: to the station for questioning, and reportedly, when Salvatore walked
Speaker 1: into the room, Stefano immediately recanted his story and just
Speaker 1: said that he'd done the whole thing by himself. So
Speaker 1: Salvatore apparently, you know, had some sort of intimidating effect
Speaker 1: on Stefano. Well, we'll find out more about that later.
Speaker 1: If you guys are good your vegetables and maybe I'll
Speaker 1: tell you. Oh yeah, now, the gun. The police asked
Speaker 1: him what happened to the gun, and Stefano said that
Speaker 1: he's threw it into a dish. So police searched all
Speaker 1: dishes in the nearby area and never did find the gun.
Speaker 1: They were able to idea the model of the gun though,
Speaker 1: because every gun manufacturer uses different processes for like rifling
Speaker 1: and such, so you can always check tell the model.
Speaker 1: The firing pin makes a different depending on the model,
Speaker 1: the gun makes a different imprint on the shell casing. Uh.
Speaker 1: It was a Baretta twenty two handgun, very common in Italy,
Speaker 1: and ring pin and this one was pretty unique. Uh well,
Speaker 1: yeah it was. It was a rectangular firing pin and
Speaker 1: this particular and all firing any firing pin in the gun.
Speaker 1: And then the same model a gun, it's going to
Speaker 1: have my new differences, just like fingerprints and everything else.
Speaker 1: And this one had a special little defect in it
Speaker 1: that was that was you know, very very unique, and
Speaker 1: that it had a dimple in it, and so it
Speaker 1: left a very unique mark on the shell casings. And
Speaker 1: it didn't it didn't tend to hit in the center
Speaker 1: anywhere near the center, and all of the images I
Speaker 1: saw it always hit on the kind of the outer
Speaker 1: edge of the shell casing. Yeah. That was a rim
Speaker 1: fire cartridge. Oh yeah, so that's why, that's why, that's
Speaker 1: that's why they call it fire. I completely just glossed
Speaker 1: over the rim fire press like it was really weird
Speaker 1: that it was always hitting on the outside. Did you write, man,
Speaker 1: you had one job? Yeah, well, okay, you're off the force.
Speaker 1: So did they ever find it? They never found the
Speaker 1: gun still to this day, to this day, as far
Speaker 1: as I know, it was never found. Yeah, you could
Speaker 1: be the owner of that gun, you know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: might have picked it up at the gun show you okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you might have picked it up a gun show listener.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if you got a Bretta twenty two semi
Speaker 1: automatic gun and take a yeah, it looks old and
Speaker 1: it's kept blood on it. Yeah. The police, for their part,
Speaker 1: where they were a little skeptical about Stefano's story because
Speaker 1: he was a small, weak guy, not very bright. It
Speaker 1: seemed like a fairly well planned little murder, and Salvatory
Speaker 1: and Francesco were scarier, scarier guys. I mean, Francesco was
Speaker 1: known to be involved in a lot of criminal activity,
Speaker 1: and they seemed to have some motive also, so it
Speaker 1: wasn't beyond the realm of belief that they also could
Speaker 1: have been involved in this killing at all. I mean,
Speaker 1: both of them obviously had a reason, I want to
Speaker 1: shoot Antonio right at the very least. In fact, all
Speaker 1: three of them did on the other hand, here they
Speaker 1: had a suspect who was saying that he had done
Speaker 1: it all himself. So they had a confession. This guy
Speaker 1: had a strong motive, They had physical evidence of his
Speaker 1: involvement and his kid. By the way, Natalino and the
Speaker 1: statements to the police did say, at least at first
Speaker 1: before he said he couldn't remember anything, he did say
Speaker 1: that his dad was there at the murder scene. And
Speaker 1: so it looked, you know, it looked at them like
Speaker 1: they had a pretty strong case. He was guilty. He
Speaker 1: was guilty, apparently even if other people were involved. So
Speaker 1: they went ahead and sent him a trial. He was
Speaker 1: sentenced to fourteen years in prison, got out after about
Speaker 1: six years and went to live in a halfway house.
Speaker 1: So that would have sorry, yeah, it just can you
Speaker 1: do the math for me real quick? That would have
Speaker 1: put him out of jail in what year. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I think he got out in seventy five, because I
Speaker 1: don't think the trial took place until sixty nine. He
Speaker 1: gets out in like seventy five or so, that's fine.
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering as we go forward. Yeah, yeah, well
Speaker 1: I wanted to. I took I did the same math
Speaker 1: because I was wondering if he was out of jail
Speaker 1: at the time the nineteen seventy four murders happened, and
Speaker 1: he was not. He was still in prison when those
Speaker 1: murders happened. Speaking of nineteen seventy four, September fifties, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, about ten miles nrtiess of Florence near a
Speaker 1: town called borg San Lorenzo, which is beautiful. Have you
Speaker 1: been there? Yes? Okay, how many times have you been
Speaker 1: to Italy two just to let's do Yeah, well it's
Speaker 1: more than me. Yea, hopefully a lot more frequently in
Speaker 1: the near future. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm hoping that
Speaker 1: we can all go over there in some sort of
Speaker 1: mystery expedition one of these days. This one. Dang, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, we can go. We can do a remix.
Speaker 1: We'll do it again. Yeah, we'll do a mashup. And
Speaker 1: I suppose it's only fair to the citizens of Florence
Speaker 1: to note that, as far as I can tell from
Speaker 1: looking at a map, none of the Monster's killings actually
Speaker 1: took place within the city limits of Florence. They were
Speaker 1: all in suburban, outlying kind of agricultural areas, which makes sense,
Speaker 1: those are these places to park? All right? Exactly? Uh
Speaker 1: so I guess we should really call him the monster
Speaker 1: the greater Metropolitan Florence area. Yeah yeah, yeah, Well back
Speaker 1: to our murder. Here. There were two teenagers, Stefania Pettini
Speaker 1: and Pascale gent. I think it's how this pronounced the
Speaker 1: third syllable, second syllable emphasis. Okay, uh They were in
Speaker 1: a Fiat. Just about all these murders took places in Fiat's.
Speaker 1: Surprised popular Maybe it was that there were some alpha's
Speaker 1: in there too, yeah BMW yeah, some competitive yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: especially next year BMWK about the whole series of magazine
Speaker 1: and said, you know, and drive a beam or don't
Speaker 1: get killed crazy. Yeah. Well, they were doing something in
Speaker 1: their car, I'm not sure what. They got bush whacked
Speaker 1: and shot, and then Stefania was dragged away from the
Speaker 1: car a little distance about ten meters or so and
Speaker 1: stabbed ninety seven times and not not deep stabbed, but
Speaker 1: they were just like more like pricks, just really shallow stabs.
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry, I'm going to be the soundtrack for
Speaker 1: the It's just like, what do you hear when you
Speaker 1: get to some of the women later on? I guess
Speaker 1: what worse. Yeah, but these steps made up and they
Speaker 1: weren't random. They made up like an elaborate design that
Speaker 1: went around Stefani's breasts and down to republic area and around. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It also took place next to a vineyard, and the
Speaker 1: murder found a little scrap of woody grape vine material
Speaker 1: which he stuffed up into Stefani's private parts. Um, and
Speaker 1: that's about it. No evidence of rape. Oh yeah, he
Speaker 1: didn't use his own Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh. The
Speaker 1: gun and the knife were not recovered, but analysis of
Speaker 1: the bullets and the showcasing showed that the murder weapon
Speaker 1: was a rut A twenty two handgun. But of course
Speaker 1: no connection was made at that time. I mean, these
Speaker 1: two things were about fifteen miles apart, in six years
Speaker 1: and six years apart, and you know, one really looked
Speaker 1: like it really was a jealous husband thing that didn't
Speaker 1: and then whereas this one more like a random Cico type.
Speaker 1: So I can see why people wouldn't associate them necessarily
Speaker 1: in their minds. And then some years went by, our
Speaker 1: next killing didn't happen until he took a long break
Speaker 1: there maybe he was out of town. Uh, but on Saturday,
Speaker 1: June six. So, by the way, these all took almost
Speaker 1: all of these murders took place on Saturday nights, some
Speaker 1: of them on Friday, but almost all of them are
Speaker 1: I think one of them was on a Thursday. Um,
Speaker 1: and there was one of I think the first one,
Speaker 1: eight one was a Tuesday. Well I remember one of
Speaker 1: them was a Thursday because the next day was a
Speaker 1: workman's day off. Yeah, but but mostly it was a
Speaker 1: weekend thing, which is where the action is going to be.
Speaker 1: That's when people are out in their cars copulating. And
Speaker 1: uh also they have it on moonless or nearly moonless nights. Um. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: so intelligently planned, right, yeah, I think so planned being
Speaker 1: the operative word there. Yeah, yeah, that's just yeah. It
Speaker 1: was not a random guy kind of guy at all. Uh.
Speaker 1: So this was Saturday, June six. Giovanni Fogi or fog.
Speaker 1: Giovanni Foji and Carmela di Nuccio were parked in probably
Speaker 1: a few in the hilltop area caused Sandici, which is
Speaker 1: on the southwest outskirts of Florence. Uh. It looks like
Speaker 1: Giovanni was shut first through the car window and then
Speaker 1: Carmelo was killed. She was dragged from the car about
Speaker 1: you know again the tenner fifteen meters. She was found
Speaker 1: naked and on her back. I saw some some video
Speaker 1: this one actually, well not the actual killing, but you know,
Speaker 1: her body afterwards, there was some video taking at the crime.
Speaker 1: Yeah and uh yeah, well they had covered her body,
Speaker 1: but she was she was naked. And this one there
Speaker 1: was some escalation because her pubic area had been cut
Speaker 1: out of her body and taken away. Okay, I hate
Speaker 1: to ask this, but how much of like the whole
Speaker 1: works Well, I mean the vagina was taken away. I
Speaker 1: mean not everything, but I mean the entire vagina was
Speaker 1: so like the whole vaginal canal and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how deep down the knife went mentioned
Speaker 1: how long. So we're saying in primarily external. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like an internal internal one fairly deep. I mean it
Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't a skin deep kind of thing. It
Speaker 1: was actually a pretty huge chunk of plastic carved out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty pretty gross. The medical examiner concluded that
Speaker 1: the excision had been done with the one he called
Speaker 1: a scuba knife because he believed the knife had a
Speaker 1: notch in it. And I'm not sure exactly what made
Speaker 1: him to conclude that, but you know, those guys know
Speaker 1: what they're talking about, so he was probably right. There
Speaker 1: probably wasn't notch in the blade. Scool. A lot of
Speaker 1: scuba knives do have notches in the blade, but there
Speaker 1: are different locations depending on the kind of knife. That's
Speaker 1: quite confusion, yeah, depending I I I found some pictures
Speaker 1: of various ones on the interwebs that I included one
Speaker 1: here for you guys to look at, and that's that
Speaker 1: was there's a one scuba knife picture here, and it's
Speaker 1: got one towards the base of the blade near where
Speaker 1: it means to hilt, and it looks like something for
Speaker 1: cutting line. But I've also seen basically the same thing
Speaker 1: on a scuba knife where there's a notch at the
Speaker 1: tip near the tip of the blade for the same reason. Yeah,
Speaker 1: same thing. It looks like it's something you hook around
Speaker 1: a line or something and just like snag and just ripped,
Speaker 1: you know, just yeah, so sawing back and forth or
Speaker 1: anything like that. Something's quick and down and dirty. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's other knives that have notches in them too, Like,
Speaker 1: for example, there's a traditional the famous Gurka knife that
Speaker 1: you've seen. That's the kind of that's got the seventeen
Speaker 1: angle bend in it. That the that the Gurka troops carried,
Speaker 1: you know, from Nepal. Now, that big old knife that's
Speaker 1: got the bent blade. Yeah, those are scary little knives. Uh,
Speaker 1: traditional Southern European dirks. Also a lot of them have notches.
Speaker 1: I included a picture for you guys to look at here.
Speaker 1: They do it too, I'm sure they do. Uh. So.
Speaker 1: On the Monday after the murders, a reporter at the
Speaker 1: Florence newspaper called the Nazi on which is what the nation. Uh.
Speaker 1: He remembered the nineteen seventy four killings and noted that
Speaker 1: there were similarities. And so when the police got winded this,
Speaker 1: they didn't tell the police. They just printed in the newspaper.
Speaker 1: You know, police can find out on their own right.
Speaker 1: That's called working together. Uh huh. Yeah. They got off
Speaker 1: the evidence from nineteen seventy four and they discovered the
Speaker 1: shirt enough that same handgun had been used in both killings. Uh.
Speaker 1: And since this indicated a serial killer was at work, well,
Speaker 1: this really kicked the interest up quite a ways. Like
Speaker 1: a notch or two, uh, not like a notch in
Speaker 1: the blade, but you know, different not yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: And and this is when the police started searching that
Speaker 1: I started questioning the local Indians. Remember those of the
Speaker 1: peeping Tom's. Yeah, and those were the names given to
Speaker 1: them by the locals, the Indiani. That's not the name
Speaker 1: that I gave him. These guys tended to meet and
Speaker 1: they were kind of semi organized, so they would be
Speaker 1: so weird. Yeah they would well they would club, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then but they would exchange notes. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the reasons it is just so you didn't
Speaker 1: have two dozen guys showing up with the same spots
Speaker 1: to spy on the same car, you know. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: like that necessitates you meeting a bunch of like fellow
Speaker 1: curves in the woods and being like, okay, dude, who's teenage?
Speaker 1: Like what teenage car you taken tonight? You don't talk
Speaker 1: about per club? Apparently somebody did. Yeah. Well if they hadn't,
Speaker 1: this would have happened. Yeah, I can think of better
Speaker 1: things to do with your time. And she's just a
Speaker 1: little bit. But by talking to various Indians, they found
Speaker 1: out that the guy who would have been hanging out
Speaker 1: in that particular area that night was a guy named
Speaker 1: Enzo Spiletti because they had their own areas. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it wasn't there all the time. Yeah, they knew he
Speaker 1: was like he was that he was in that area.
Speaker 1: He was assigned that area that night sort of. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also Giovanni Giovanni's car was known to the voyeurs.
Speaker 1: Also Giovanni was the guy that got murdered to the couple. Uh,
Speaker 1: it was known as a quote good car. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there was lots of action, so they knew his car. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so it seems likely Enzo Spiletti would have been
Speaker 1: actually watching it when the murders took place. I probably not,
Speaker 1: but you know, it does seem kind of like I
Speaker 1: can see what the police wanted to talk to this guy. Say.
Speaker 1: Spiletti was evasive when he was hauled in for questioning.
Speaker 1: I think they grilled in for like six hours. Most
Speaker 1: likely that might have been because he just didn't want
Speaker 1: to admit his hobby was spying on people having sex
Speaker 1: in their cars. It's just a little embarrassing as a
Speaker 1: married man. Yeah. Well yeah he was married, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and he had kids. He told police first of all
Speaker 1: that he'd been with another boy or the whole evening
Speaker 1: was turned out not to be true. Uh, And then
Speaker 1: he told the police he'd gotten home by midnight. But
Speaker 1: then when they talked to his wife, she said that
Speaker 1: he didn't get home till after two am. And so well, um,
Speaker 1: she was just trying to get back at him, maybe
Speaker 1: because she knew and she was like, you know what, No,
Speaker 1: we're punishing you. Yeah, yeah, it could have been. Cops
Speaker 1: decided he was holding back information because and I could
Speaker 1: see what they might wonder about that, because you would
Speaker 1: think he would have seen something if he's that's his
Speaker 1: his whole thing is spying on these cars. Why didn't
Speaker 1: you see somebody murdering these people? Maybe he was away
Speaker 1: on a pea break. I was just saying, yeah, he
Speaker 1: may not have been there during the time that it
Speaker 1: took place, or he might not have been following the rule.
Speaker 1: And you know, it was a dry spot, so we
Speaker 1: went somewhere else hoping to see something and he left
Speaker 1: too early. That's entirely possible. Or it might have been
Speaker 1: that he was somewhere else and he came along and
Speaker 1: saw the bodies and stuff, got the hell out and
Speaker 1: got the hell out of there and didn't say anything,
Speaker 1: which that wouldn't be unheard of, right. Anyway, he was
Speaker 1: not charged with murder. He was charged initially with reticence,
Speaker 1: which in Italy is considered kind of a form of
Speaker 1: perjury when you're not willing to like tell the cops
Speaker 1: everything they want to know. And then in July they decided, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's a killer after all, so they charged him
Speaker 1: with murder. Yeah, and that's that's the way it works
Speaker 1: in Italy. And I found out from researching this is
Speaker 1: like not nothing. I don't want to sound like him
Speaker 1: down any Italian folks. I love you guys. I'd love
Speaker 1: to see your country, but it does sound like your
Speaker 1: justice system was a little screwed up. Oh no, it is.
Speaker 1: It's just all the systems I can tell you. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm currently in the process of pursuing my dual citizenship
Speaker 1: I forgot about. And it turns out that if you
Speaker 1: are willing to pay a ton of money, you just
Speaker 1: get it. Takes it like they're literally it's I'm waiting.
Speaker 1: I have to wait like three years before I can
Speaker 1: even get an interview at the consulate in America. Right,
Speaker 1: But if I if I were willing to give them
Speaker 1: like a couple of thousand bucks, like I would literally
Speaker 1: have my citizenship in like a month, but nope, I
Speaker 1: can't afford that. So, I mean it's just is not
Speaker 1: on the show bank account. It's true. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's even I mean it's it's even stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It's all of it. Yeah, and this this kind of
Speaker 1: stuff happened, and honestly, most people who live in Italy
Speaker 1: will tell you the exact same thing. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's not steadily. There's a lot of countries where
Speaker 1: it's just expected that you're going to bribe people. It's
Speaker 1: like tipping here in America, you know, it's expected. So ends, yeah, yeah, back,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, so back to Ends. Spiletti. Luckily for him,
Speaker 1: the monster didn't win another seven years before he struck again,
Speaker 1: because that would have that actually would have been a
Speaker 1: bad break for him. Yeah. So on Friday October one,
Speaker 1: so just several months after the murder stuff, Nobaldi and
Speaker 1: Susannah Combie, we're parked in the Bartolian net Fields that
Speaker 1: I get that right, Bartolian Yeah, alright, okay, well that's
Speaker 1: west of Florence. And their car was found the next morning.
Speaker 1: The driver's side window had a bullet hole in it,
Speaker 1: just like the previous murder. Passengers side door was open.
Speaker 1: Susanna had been dragged about ten meters in the car
Speaker 1: and mutilated like before you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: And they found the usual showcasing from a bread of
Speaker 1: twenty two they matched. They also found a strange stone
Speaker 1: about twenty meters from the murder side, which was shaped
Speaker 1: like a truncated pyramid red herring. Uh, well, not even
Speaker 1: a red herring. I don't, I don't think. I think
Speaker 1: it was just randomly there, and I doubt that the
Speaker 1: murderer even which now actually what it was was a doorstop.
Speaker 1: And uh but apparently this this police where this prosecutor
Speaker 1: who found it and didn't really know what it was.
Speaker 1: There was a journalist who us there who wrote quite
Speaker 1: a lot about this. His name is Mario Spetsy, and
Speaker 1: he co wrote a book about this was Douglas Preston
Speaker 1: called The Monster of Florence. Very good book, by the way,
Speaker 1: the to read if you're more interested in this and
Speaker 1: if you want to hear more about it. Uh. And
Speaker 1: later on that little perimid caused trouble for none other
Speaker 1: than Marios Betsy because it turned out he had a
Speaker 1: doorstop in his house and it was japed sort of
Speaker 1: kind of like this one. And later on, I mean
Speaker 1: years later, and when the investigation really took a left
Speaker 1: turn and started getting into strange accusations, crazy territory, seriously
Speaker 1: crazy satanic death cult accusations, and all kinds of looney
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, not on the part of the Internet, but
Speaker 1: on the part of the police and the prosecutors. Their
Speaker 1: killer left behind a paperweight and desk. That's about. That's
Speaker 1: about it. That about I mean yeah, because um yeah,
Speaker 1: And it was only much later that the investigation became
Speaker 1: as loony as it was. But why did it get looney?
Speaker 1: Our next killings were in June two? So, Devin, you
Speaker 1: pronounced their names? Um oh, Paulo, my Mari and uh
Speaker 1: Antonella million, Mini, Medio Meani. Yeah, okay is how I
Speaker 1: would say those? All right? That works, Yeah, alright, let's
Speaker 1: government work. Yeah all right. So they pulled these these
Speaker 1: two pulled their fiad, I believe it was. It's a
Speaker 1: freaking fiod. I've never got to drive one of those cars.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go buy one tomorrow. Yeah, uh yeah. They
Speaker 1: were parked. They pulled off what was actually a fairly
Speaker 1: busy road. They pulled up this short little dead end
Speaker 1: road at the Edison Woods and parked for the usual stuff, right,
Speaker 1: and Paulo violated the first rule of parking on the
Speaker 1: creepy dead end lover's lane in serial killer territory, which
Speaker 1: is that you always turn your car around a point
Speaker 1: it towards the exit before you shut off the ignition. Right, Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's what I do. I think he probably had something
Speaker 1: else on his mind besides that rule. Probably. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: here's how it here's how it all shook out. The
Speaker 1: police reconstructed the scene. Uh, it looked like from what
Speaker 1: they've seen, and it's from the evidence it they had
Speaker 1: finished having sex Antonella had climbed into the back seat
Speaker 1: to put her clothes on, and at that point the
Speaker 1: monster was lurking nearby and apparently was not as stealthy
Speaker 1: as he had been previously, because Paolo heard him or
Speaker 1: saw him, and so he quickly started the car, jammed it, reversed,
Speaker 1: and backed out of there as quick as he could.
Speaker 1: The monster fire shot hit Paolo in the left shoulder,
Speaker 1: but didn't completely incapacitated or anything. The car kept backing
Speaker 1: up it hit the main road, but unfortunately Paolo did
Speaker 1: not make the turn, and the car went across the
Speaker 1: road and the rear wheels went into the ditch where
Speaker 1: he was stuck. He put it and he put in
Speaker 1: put in first gear or forward or whatever drive, but
Speaker 1: was not able to get out of the ditch. Meantime,
Speaker 1: the monster is advancing upon them, stands on the opposite
Speaker 1: side of the road. They reconstructed when the suspenseful music
Speaker 1: would play in the movie. Yeah, and I'm imagining things
Speaker 1: inside that car were probably a little tense right about probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he she He stood across the road and shot both
Speaker 1: headlights out and walked across the road, pulled open the
Speaker 1: driver's side door and shot each of them in the head.
Speaker 1: He pulled Polo's body out of the car and threw
Speaker 1: him to the ground. He got into the car and
Speaker 1: tried to get it out of the ditch. And presumably
Speaker 1: I think he did this because he wanted to transport
Speaker 1: Antonella's body a little further away to a more private
Speaker 1: spot so he could do some of his usual surgery.
Speaker 1: If you know what I'm talking about. Trophy taken. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the car luckily for her, I guess was stuck.
Speaker 1: It didn't really matter for her. I guess she was dead.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, better for the
Speaker 1: next can right, Yeah, he so he did leave. He
Speaker 1: went up the hillside across the road and threw the
Speaker 1: car keys away. They were found about three feet away,
Speaker 1: along with a bottle of some over the counter medicine
Speaker 1: that was never apparently any use in tracing the killer.
Speaker 1: What was the medicine for. I'm not sure, Norris of
Speaker 1: tam I didn't really like, like check it too closely
Speaker 1: since then the police were never were actually making anything
Speaker 1: of it. And I had to say, by the yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean it could have been check chucked
Speaker 1: out there by anybody. Yeah, I mean I remember growing
Speaker 1: up at people had their trash bags in the back
Speaker 1: of their truck open and things flew out. So that's
Speaker 1: you know, stuffings up on the side of the road
Speaker 1: for a myriad number of reasons. Oh yeah, definitely. Um.
Speaker 1: When the car was found, Paula was still alive. He
Speaker 1: was he was unconscious, but he was when he was
Speaker 1: taken to the hospital. He died later at the hospital,
Speaker 1: but police took the opportunity to plant some disinformation in
Speaker 1: the newspapers with the cooperation of the local journalists. They
Speaker 1: said that, and the reporters knew it was alive, but
Speaker 1: they knew why. Uh. They said that Polo had lived
Speaker 1: long enough to give them some information. And this might
Speaker 1: just have paid off for the police. We'll see, didn't
Speaker 1: get them actually the real killer. In the end, it
Speaker 1: did maybe get them a little action. But anyway, we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that later. But news of the murders hit
Speaker 1: the papers two days later on June twenty one, and
Speaker 1: that same day police down the Tuscan Coast always Away
Speaker 1: found a car that had been hidden in the woods
Speaker 1: covered with brush. Uh. They didn't get around and running
Speaker 1: the plates for a couple of weeks. So, and of
Speaker 1: course the public was going nuts. Tons of tips were
Speaker 1: flowing into the police via the phone and via mail,
Speaker 1: lots of anonymous tips. Uh. And yeah, very few of
Speaker 1: them are worth anything. But then one day a letter
Speaker 1: arrived with an old newspaper clipping and it I a
Speaker 1: should say an envelope arrived. It wasn't a letter, Uh,
Speaker 1: it was about a nine double murder, which was you
Speaker 1: guessed at the murder of Antonio and Barbara somebody had
Speaker 1: written on the clipping you should take another look at
Speaker 1: this crime except for an Italian. Yeah, yeah, not ye,
Speaker 1: not New Liaisy, but yeah Italiano, um Italiano. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I just gotta get into the whole swing of the Italian.
Speaker 1: You know, we've already been banned in China. Don't get
Speaker 1: a banned in Italy. I like my process to not
Speaker 1: take any longer than that. Yeah, you get back to
Speaker 1: the back of the line. And I'm sorry about that. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is one of the most one of the more
Speaker 1: intriguing little sub mysteries in the story, which was who
Speaker 1: set this clipping in? Ye, I'd really kind of like
Speaker 1: to know. They never did find out. So was it
Speaker 1: the monster to send it in? Seems unlikely unless he
Speaker 1: wanted to tease the cops a little bit. But was it?
Speaker 1: Was it somebody who knew the monster but didn't feel
Speaker 1: like he could really read him out directly, so he
Speaker 1: sent in some hints to the cops. Maybe there wasn't
Speaker 1: just some alert citizen. Was the little historical knowledge, which
Speaker 1: is entirely possible. I could sort of see that, actually
Speaker 1: there are people who really stay up on this like us. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean the other other option is somebody who either
Speaker 1: was related to Stefano or or close to him or
Speaker 1: something who always thought he's innocent and was trying to
Speaker 1: advocate for him and saw the opportunity to say, like,
Speaker 1: these are looking kind of similar, like let's prove his
Speaker 1: innocence years on, and let's still try. Yeah, maybe exonerate
Speaker 1: his record or anything like that, because he was out
Speaker 1: of out of jail by then. Yeah he was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was a little in his heap. Frankly, maybe it
Speaker 1: was him. Yeah, maybe it was Stefano. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: newspaper clipping in. I don't know. Stefano was not that smart. Maybe,
Speaker 1: how I guess that's true. Yeah, but I said, I
Speaker 1: need our listeners to know that Joe just looks like
Speaker 1: genuinely shocked. I would even suggest that Stefano might have
Speaker 1: sent this thing. Come on, you got to be kidding.
Speaker 1: Maybe with his son Natalie. No, how old would he
Speaker 1: have been, then it would have been about it was
Speaker 1: he was six, and then it was fifteen years later. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so it could have been. Yeah, it could Yeah, it
Speaker 1: could have been. Anyway, that's a different mystery for a
Speaker 1: different times. Yeah, totally another one that's probably not going
Speaker 1: to get solved. But but police did go back and
Speaker 1: they looked at the files and they found that this
Speaker 1: is amazing, by the way, that the evidence had not
Speaker 1: been lost in this place. How does that actually surprising?
Speaker 1: It is? Yeah, and I'm not putting out the Italians.
Speaker 1: This happens all of the Oh yeah it does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they still have some shells from the gun that
Speaker 1: they collected. By the way, the monster never troubled to
Speaker 1: pick up any of the shell casings, of course not yeah,
Speaker 1: of course not. Uh, And so they still had those shells.
Speaker 1: They compared it to the more recent killings and by
Speaker 1: the way, perfect match, same gun. So it appears that
Speaker 1: that first killing might have been the first monster killing.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a it's a long run. Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: a long way to seventy four. That's six years, and
Speaker 1: then then then what's seven more years. Although I guess
Speaker 1: there's some kind of I will probably talk about this
Speaker 1: in theories, but there's some there's escalation that is happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first bodies weren't mutilated at all or
Speaker 1: anything like that. They were just shot. Yeah, it could
Speaker 1: have been or it could have been just diferen emos,
Speaker 1: or he could have left town been in jail for
Speaker 1: a while, and there's all kinds of yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean this the same set of style of murder could
Speaker 1: have been happening I don't know in India at the time,
Speaker 1: and that wouldn't that didn't get tracked totally. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know why I picked out India, but I did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And they've had their sericular is too, so yeah, they
Speaker 1: all everybody does. But of course Stefano Meda could not, Uh,
Speaker 1: he could not have committed those nineteen seventy four murders
Speaker 1: since he was in prison. Um and then after prison
Speaker 1: he went to a halfway house run by Catholic priests,
Speaker 1: and he was still there in nineteen eighty two. By
Speaker 1: this point he was old. He was physically very weak,
Speaker 1: not a big guy to begin with, and not in
Speaker 1: great shape and mentally not with it at all. Uh,
Speaker 1: And the police got really no useful information from him.
Speaker 1: So did the monster commit the nineteen sixty eight murders. Well,
Speaker 1: that's hard to say. I mean, it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: say if he was even there. He might have been
Speaker 1: there or maybe not. Apparently they were like a number
Speaker 1: of people there. It was not according to the according
Speaker 1: to the reigning theories out there, the reigning theory about
Speaker 1: the nineteen six crime, he said, it was actually a
Speaker 1: clan killing that involved members of the Mainland clan, the
Speaker 1: Medle clan, and and then then the Vinci clan. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that the theory is at Barbara he had Yeah,
Speaker 1: lovedn't she Okay, I sudden thought that there was an
Speaker 1: inventor involved. Yeah, Well, the theory is that Barbara is
Speaker 1: going to call us on that. Keep going McDonald's hope. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Barbara had brought this honor on the Meila clan with
Speaker 1: their behavior, and of course Salvatare and Francesco we're probably
Speaker 1: feeling a little about her, that Barbara had ditched him
Speaker 1: for Antonio, right. Uh. And also there was some stolen
Speaker 1: money involved, which was probably the straw that broke the
Speaker 1: camels back. But I'm not going to go into that
Speaker 1: because the story is already complicated enough. But even if
Speaker 1: even if it was a clan killing in night is,
Speaker 1: Stefano should have known something and piracy was there. He
Speaker 1: was placed at the scene and convicted, and so the
Speaker 1: problem was, you know, the police couldn't get anything out
Speaker 1: of reporters. We're going Brasier trying to get trying to
Speaker 1: get into the halfway house to talk to him. With
Speaker 1: the priests around the place, wouldn't let them in. And
Speaker 1: then and then Mario Spezzy, who I've mentioned here before
Speaker 1: the report trupid reporter uh fates being on a documentary crewman. Essentially,
Speaker 1: they said that they wanted to do a documentary about
Speaker 1: these priests and their good works, you know and stuff,
Speaker 1: and so they totally lied and get in there and
Speaker 1: and and just happened to like interview Stefano and they
Speaker 1: and they started talking a little bit about the murders,
Speaker 1: and he was kind of vague and evasive about the
Speaker 1: whole thing. It didn't really say much useful except for
Speaker 1: one thing. He said, quote, they need to figure out
Speaker 1: where that pistol is, otherwise there will be more murders,
Speaker 1: they will continue to kill unquote so almost words there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he seemed to know something, huh yeah. So when
Speaker 1: he said they need to figure out where the pistol is,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they meant the police, or if
Speaker 1: he was talking about somebody else, or if he was
Speaker 1: old and like messing up his words. Oh, there's that too,
Speaker 1: I suppose. Yeah, but yeah, he seemed to know all
Speaker 1: about the pistol. He seemed to know that there were
Speaker 1: people out there who murder on their minds. I guess
Speaker 1: because he know that they were going they were going
Speaker 1: to continue to murder. The other thing I will just
Speaker 1: briefly mentioned. And I guess they don't really know enough
Speaker 1: Italian to really know this, But in English, there is
Speaker 1: such a thing as a singular they, and it's when
Speaker 1: you don't know what that person's gender is, that's a they, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's possible that that's how he was using it,
Speaker 1: although again I don't know, I don't know Italian enough
Speaker 1: to know if that is something that exists in Italian
Speaker 1: or not, but that it's possible that he was just saying,
Speaker 1: like that person, yeah, I have no identity for will
Speaker 1: continue to Yeah, I mean they is like you know,
Speaker 1: it can mean a lot of things in English too,
Speaker 1: so I assume we can do the same in Italian.
Speaker 1: So they can mean the authorities, or can mean society
Speaker 1: in general, or can mean a certain group of people
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, we don't know. But and as far
Speaker 1: as but but as far as I'm saying that they
Speaker 1: will continue to kill same confusion. They're it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: does you know something? Is it more than one person?
Speaker 1: Maybe because you know something like we don't know the
Speaker 1: kinda Binieri that's like the what the like the National Police,
Speaker 1: I think they're kind of military called paramilitary in Italy.
Speaker 1: They opened up the nineteen caseum and that began a
Speaker 1: phase of the investigation that came to be called the
Speaker 1: Sardinian trail because this whole nineteen sixty eight thing, everybody
Speaker 1: involved was Sardinian. And by the way, there, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I mentioned that there was a big, a
Speaker 1: big accidents of people from Sardinia to Italy in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. Well, it's an island. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: an island off the coast of Italy. That yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like south of Corsica and west of Italy, right. But
Speaker 1: I mean if they're and again I had research on this,
Speaker 1: but if there were some sort of blight or any
Speaker 1: you know, hard times from the island, that what you
Speaker 1: you get? Yeah, and so somewhere else, uh, well, back
Speaker 1: to our investigation. The police looked at and Notalina, Notatalino's statements.
Speaker 1: Remember he was a kid. The six year old, and
Speaker 1: he had said, of course said his father was president
Speaker 1: of crime. He also said he saw Salvatore there, changed
Speaker 1: that to Francesco, and he also said something about an
Speaker 1: uncle Piero, which was assumed to be his uncle, Piero Muccarini,
Speaker 1: and I said, saw the shadow of somebody else. And
Speaker 1: then later on the course she decided he hadn't seen anything,
Speaker 1: couldn't remember anything. Uh. And then Stefanos, of course his
Speaker 1: statements to the police also was Salvatory and Francesco there,
Speaker 1: which of course he retracted. So the police it seemed
Speaker 1: to them there were four accomplices there. I mean actually
Speaker 1: besides Stefano, there were the Vincy brothers, and then Piero
Speaker 1: and then the shadow. They weren't sure about that person, uh,
Speaker 1: their their first focus. And by the way, the shadow, eventually,
Speaker 1: as far as the police was were concerned, did turn
Speaker 1: out to be Stefano's brother, Giovanni Medde. But they focused
Speaker 1: on Francesco first because he was the one who had
Speaker 1: the big criminal record um. And they were able to
Speaker 1: place him here in the nineteen seventy four killings because
Speaker 1: he was in the area apparently taking care of some
Speaker 1: business with his favorite nephew, Antonio Vinci. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: during the most recent killings, Francesco was actually visiting Antonio
Speaker 1: at his home, which is only about six kilometers from
Speaker 1: the murder scene. And so that looks suspicious to the police.
Speaker 1: And of course, like I said, he was criminal, like
Speaker 1: a career criminal. And remember I said that a car
Speaker 1: had been found on the June one, Yeah, in the woods.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, by the Tescan police. Well, they finally ran
Speaker 1: the plates and it turned out the Carblong didn't not
Speaker 1: other than Francesco. Uh. Yeah. And that was the same
Speaker 1: day that the false reports were printed in the papers
Speaker 1: saying that Paolo had lived long enough to give a
Speaker 1: statement to the police. Yeah. So did the news spook Francesco.
Speaker 1: And certainly the police were kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: intrigued by this. Uh. They hauled him in and his
Speaker 1: he didn't have any really good stories to account for
Speaker 1: his whereabouts on the day of the murder, and he
Speaker 1: really had no good ex planation as to white hid
Speaker 1: in the car in the woods, And so he was
Speaker 1: arrested in the August two and set off to jail.
Speaker 1: He spent a little time in jail, uh, and the
Speaker 1: monster for his part, did not strike for well over
Speaker 1: a year. But then September, German tourists were camping in
Speaker 1: their Volkswagen bus. Uh. That's was like, this was like
Speaker 1: just outside Florence to the south, and there were two guys,
Speaker 1: but one of them was small and had long blonde hair,
Speaker 1: and so from a distance in the dark, maybe possibly
Speaker 1: the the monster could have mistaken him for a woman
Speaker 1: and thought that they were a couple, had a sexual couple. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: it's two men. Yeah, it was two men. Thought they
Speaker 1: were a man and a woman. Anyway, they were shot
Speaker 1: to death and the small the small guy did not
Speaker 1: get his private parts cut out, presumably because that was
Speaker 1: not what the monster was expecting. Yeah. I think probably
Speaker 1: got a nasty little shock and when he pulled down
Speaker 1: his pants and found out that, we see the usual
Speaker 1: what he was expecting, wasn't there long kind of serving right, Actually,
Speaker 1: the pattern of the bullet hole suggested that the killer
Speaker 1: was tall. And I don't know, you guys, remember the old, old,
Speaker 1: old looks like the extra little windows on the top
Speaker 1: of the little skinny windows. Yeah, and you can if
Speaker 1: you if you google v W bus, you'll find those.
Speaker 1: You'll find pictures of that, but the initial bullet holes
Speaker 1: apparently were through There were a couple of them through
Speaker 1: those windows, firing downward into the bus. So from that
Speaker 1: you can you can presume that the killer was fairly
Speaker 1: tall to be able to stand up on his tiptoes,
Speaker 1: looked down inside, see the two guys in there, and
Speaker 1: then fire down in there. Uh the monster. By the way,
Speaker 1: I always shot the man first, if that hasn't already
Speaker 1: been clear, which is kind of a good tactic because
Speaker 1: if somebody in the car is going to have a
Speaker 1: weapon like a knife or a gun, it's probably gonna
Speaker 1: be the guy or to be able to overpower you. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: so you want to shoot the guy first. So uh
Speaker 1: so it appears that it appears at the larger the
Speaker 1: two was presumed to be the man in the relationship.
Speaker 1: He was shot first. But yeah, the larger I didn't
Speaker 1: mention their names. Larger the two was was was Wilhelm
Speaker 1: Meyer and then Swan was. I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: apronounced Ui, it's u w E, So we'll call it you.
Speaker 1: You're the one who knows German. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's been a long time and I'm rusty. That's why
Speaker 1: we don't let you go out in the rain. Yeah
Speaker 1: it appears, oh yeah, give me my w D forty.
Speaker 1: But it appears the monster shot Willehelm down through the
Speaker 1: glass and then you skidaddled into the rear of the
Speaker 1: van and scrunched himself into a corner as far as
Speaker 1: he could, probably thinking that, you know, hoping that you know,
Speaker 1: whoever it was would didn't see him, it would go away.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately for him, the monster was aware of what
Speaker 1: and where he was, and so he just walked around
Speaker 1: the vantaged, shot through the side of the van and
Speaker 1: killed him. Then he walked back around and slid open
Speaker 1: the side door, and that's when he apparently got his
Speaker 1: nasty little surprise because he left without He left without
Speaker 1: taking himself a prize or anything. And now, since the
Speaker 1: prime suspect, Francesco was in jail, this could kind of
Speaker 1: put a damper on the cave against him being the monster,
Speaker 1: right yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, I kind of did
Speaker 1: a little bit. But police didn't let him go. They
Speaker 1: noted that the killer did appeal appear to be a
Speaker 1: tall guy, and Francesco, frankly was a not terribly tall
Speaker 1: guy or it could have been a short guy who
Speaker 1: took a footstool with him when he went on his
Speaker 1: murder spreeze, but probably a tall guy. Yeah, And the
Speaker 1: police also noted that Francesco's favorite nephew, Antonio Vinci, was
Speaker 1: also a tall guy, so they theorized that Antonio had
Speaker 1: staged this killing just to exonerate his uncle, which was
Speaker 1: nice of him. I mean, that's seriously and that's above
Speaker 1: and beyond in my opinion. Yeah, and who knows, maybe
Speaker 1: actually targeted this couple, these two guys, and it's thought
Speaker 1: that they were a gay couple because they found some
Speaker 1: gay literature there. But maybe he deliberately targeted these two
Speaker 1: because that would that would mean he wouldn't he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have to do the surgery, which maybe he didn't really
Speaker 1: wasn't on a key, Yeah, you know, if he wasn't
Speaker 1: actually the killer. But Antonio was arrested about a week
Speaker 1: later for illegal possession of firearms, and it turns out
Speaker 1: the firearms in question were it's hard to say if
Speaker 1: they were actually his or if the police just kind
Speaker 1: of planted them somewhere because they weren't even in his house,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, there was no actual evidence. He
Speaker 1: actually they it went to trial, he represented himself. He
Speaker 1: didn't even bother him. Okay, now he got off, Yeah
Speaker 1: he got he got off. He just he just said, hey, look,
Speaker 1: you know, they weren't even in my house. There's no
Speaker 1: connection at all, no evidence, and by the way, they
Speaker 1: were probably planted. And so that was enough. He got off.
Speaker 1: But Francesco, for his part, stayed in jail. And then
Speaker 1: the examining magistrate he's kind of the guy that like
Speaker 1: a judge who supervises the prosecution and the police and everything,
Speaker 1: he decided he want to take a crack at Stefano himself. Uh,
Speaker 1: and so when he talked to Stefano, he he still
Speaker 1: wouldn't neiplicate Salvatore and Francesco. But Rotella, the judge, said
Speaker 1: that Stefano did confess that his brother Giovanni and his
Speaker 1: there in law Piero were present at the scene. So
Speaker 1: but maybe Pierre was the uncle Piero that Natolino said
Speaker 1: that he saw, and then maybe Giovani was the shadow
Speaker 1: that he saw that night, And so I guess what
Speaker 1: they were. Those guys got arrested too. They were charged
Speaker 1: with monsterism. Yeah, how many arrests were their total. There's
Speaker 1: so many people arrested for I lost track too, That's
Speaker 1: why I asked. Yeah, there were quite a few people
Speaker 1: got arrested. Actually, so there were a number of different
Speaker 1: A lot of different people got convicted in jail and
Speaker 1: it happened and didn't let get let go right away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of them did, but some of them that they anywhere. Well,
Speaker 1: even though the police had a triumphed and they had
Speaker 1: arrested the three most likely suspects in the whole thing, well,
Speaker 1: unfortunately the killer struck again. The next murder was July.
Speaker 1: Claudio Stefanacci, and I think that sounds per Pierrontini murdered
Speaker 1: in the usual way of Claudio is still in the car,
Speaker 1: had dragged out of the car a few dozen meters away,
Speaker 1: a mutilated and this time he escalated again. He not
Speaker 1: only took out her public area, he tore off her
Speaker 1: left breast. Yeah, I didn't cut it off. Apparently it's
Speaker 1: pretty pretty hard, Like I literally physically don't understand that.
Speaker 1: It seems like it would be really hard to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe partially cut in part you got to
Speaker 1: start an incision. Yeah, he must have done at least
Speaker 1: a little bit of cutting. But oh yes, it's gross.
Speaker 1: But hopefully she was dead by the time that happened, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. Well, so anyway, there's there's this murder,
Speaker 1: horrible murder, and the three favorite suspects are all in prison.
Speaker 1: Um then they were all eventually released, although in uh
Speaker 1: Francesco's case it didn't Actually he didn't get released until
Speaker 1: November that year. So they kept him around for months
Speaker 1: because the police felt that even though obviously this meant
Speaker 1: he wasn't guilty, they were pretty sure he knew who was,
Speaker 1: so they felt like they just hang on to him
Speaker 1: and keep the pressure on for a while. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: never cracked apparently. And I don't want to sound like
Speaker 1: I'm stereotyping people, but from what I've heard about here,
Speaker 1: he comes from the mountain, the inner mountains of Sardinia,
Speaker 1: where it's kind of a very traditional kind of society
Speaker 1: and there's clans and and the code of Omerta and
Speaker 1: all that, you know, just like with the Sicilians and stuff,
Speaker 1: and so these are not the kind of guys that
Speaker 1: even if they know who it is, they're not going
Speaker 1: to tell the police. Now that's just yeah, and if
Speaker 1: you're one of our Sardinian listeners and I've got it
Speaker 1: all wrong, police, send us an email. But Francesco was
Speaker 1: eventually released and head threw a little his friends to
Speaker 1: a little party for him. That was November, and Mario Spetcy,
Speaker 1: the journalist, attended his little party and got a little
Speaker 1: a little alone time with him and said and said, so,
Speaker 1: what do you think the monster is really like? Then?
Speaker 1: What's your theory? And Francesco said a few things, but
Speaker 1: the last thing he said was that the monster was
Speaker 1: quote one who wants upon a time experienced a very
Speaker 1: very great disappointment. I mean, and he didn't say exactly
Speaker 1: what that man, that's just what he said. It so vague.
Speaker 1: Well it's vague, but at the same time it's kind
Speaker 1: of specific. I guess I don't know that that's necessarily true.
Speaker 1: I think he probably had a lot of time to
Speaker 1: think about what kind of guy could be doing this? Right,
Speaker 1: And as we are, we three are wont to do.
Speaker 1: We just try to like dig into the psychology of somebody.
Speaker 1: And I think we would all agree that like whoever
Speaker 1: was doing these things suffered some kind of very big
Speaker 1: trauma or something, or some self perceived trauma, just had
Speaker 1: something in and that was just missing on it. Something
Speaker 1: was going on, some kind of great disappointment, if you will,
Speaker 1: I would agree with you. Yeah, probably, or or it
Speaker 1: could mean that he knew exactly who it was, why
Speaker 1: he was doing it. I don't know, but you can
Speaker 1: you can sort of understand that why the police might
Speaker 1: think that these guys really kind of knew what was
Speaker 1: going on and just weren't saying when they go around
Speaker 1: saying stuff like this. Alright. So, uh so there were
Speaker 1: three out of four suspects in the nineteen six killing,
Speaker 1: they were eliminated, so that leaves one was his Salvatore Vinci.
Speaker 1: And then when police started looking into him, they discovered
Speaker 1: that he actually had some perverse sexual appetites, which of
Speaker 1: course doesn't make him a serial killer, but apparently he
Speaker 1: was promiscuous like groups sex, would do it with anybody,
Speaker 1: a man and woman, a chihuahua, whatever, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he and uh he's also suspected of murdering his wife
Speaker 1: in Sardinia back in nineteen sixty one. Uh And so
Speaker 1: when they were investigating Salvatory, and by the way, they
Speaker 1: had a bunch of surveillance too, while they were doing this,
Speaker 1: Monster Boy struck again one last time, which was Saturday,
Speaker 1: September seven, ninety five. This send the victims were a
Speaker 1: couple of French tourists who were camping. Uh and uh,
Speaker 1: this is a little bit different. Rent. They weren't in
Speaker 1: the car. They were in a tent. Apparently they were
Speaker 1: naked and it just had sex. And then the killer
Speaker 1: approach crashed down in front of the tent, made a
Speaker 1: noise by slitting part of their tent with his knife,
Speaker 1: and then when they popped out of the tent, un
Speaker 1: zipped the fly and came popping out. He was crouching
Speaker 1: down in front of the tent. He opened fire on them,
Speaker 1: killed the woman and immediately, Yeah, Nadine and then her
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Jean. He was hit four times, but they
Speaker 1: were all superficial. He got like hit and like the
Speaker 1: like the wrists and the elbow and saying all painful
Speaker 1: wounds and everything, but nothing nothing, nothing, not debilitating. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so it looked like from the physical scene that
Speaker 1: Jean bolted from the tent and sprinted it out into
Speaker 1: the woods. And it looks like he probably knocked the
Speaker 1: knocked the killer down. The killer was probably crouching again
Speaker 1: and he just got caught by surprised, got knocked over,
Speaker 1: but you know, picked himself up when running after John
Speaker 1: and stabbed him in the back and then stabbed him
Speaker 1: a few more times in the abdomen and then cut
Speaker 1: his stroke. Then he goes back to the tent, does
Speaker 1: the usual mutilations of Nadine as she shot her as well,
Speaker 1: and she was yeah, she was already dead. But he
Speaker 1: goes back and then and again, this time the PBC
Speaker 1: area and the left breast again, and then later be
Speaker 1: abled a part of that breast to the state prosecutor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: along with a note. Yeah, apparently this scared the crap
Speaker 1: out of her, and so she resigned this a shock.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, if you guys ever want me
Speaker 1: to stop doing the podcast, you can do something much
Speaker 1: less terrified. Yeah, it wouldn't take. It wouldn't take. That
Speaker 1: wouldn't take much for me. The really Yeah, yeah, just
Speaker 1: a mild threat and I'm done. Yeah. At this by
Speaker 1: this point in time, police really turned up the heat.
Speaker 1: The offerat reward of about half a billion lira, which
Speaker 1: is about five bucks. Um, Yeah, that's not true, and
Speaker 1: they started putting decoys and cars in the hills, and
Speaker 1: the joke was that they were more police parents of
Speaker 1: policemen in cars, and then the hills around Florence and
Speaker 1: they were actually the lovers and uh but it was
Speaker 1: was this the same style as you always see those
Speaker 1: It was the eighties and nineties TV show where the
Speaker 1: gruff cop is dressed up as the prostitute walking down
Speaker 1: the street hoping the bad guy will will try and
Speaker 1: take her out so that they can get your rest.
Speaker 1: Is it this level of absurdity when it's uh, there
Speaker 1: was two men cops, one dressed up to look like
Speaker 1: a girl. That really stupid. There was a little wig
Speaker 1: wearing yeah, because I mean they're trying as much as
Speaker 1: possible to get police women out there as decuse. But
Speaker 1: apparently there was a bit of a shortage of them,
Speaker 1: and so some guys had to shave off their mustaches
Speaker 1: and put on wigs and uh. Yeah, and but unfortunately
Speaker 1: for them, uh you know, they never had this was
Speaker 1: that was his last murder. It might have been that
Speaker 1: he just decided, for whatever reason, it was time to
Speaker 1: back off. Maybe when of the hills are all full
Speaker 1: of cops in cars, it's a good time to retire
Speaker 1: or maybe move on somewhere else, because it really was
Speaker 1: his last killing. Uh. And the meantime, the police investigate
Speaker 1: towards sort of went reached the intersection, and some of
Speaker 1: them went one way, some of them one another. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some of them still like to start eating in connection,
Speaker 1: and some of them decided that that whole thing was
Speaker 1: all played out and they should look at other possibilities.
Speaker 1: Mario Rotella was still fixated on Salvatory Vinci and was
Speaker 1: still working on building a case against him. At the
Speaker 1: same time, the police in September eighty five got an
Speaker 1: anonymous letter accusing a farmer who was pih Ro Pacciani
Speaker 1: of being of being the monster. And Pacciani, by the way,
Speaker 1: was was not a model citizen. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: think he did it, but he eventually was tried for
Speaker 1: the crime. The police looked into his background. He had
Speaker 1: actually killed a young couple in their car in n
Speaker 1: It was it been supposedly his girlfriend at the time,
Speaker 1: and she was having sex with some traveling salesman or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Essentially he bushed so he bush whacked them and took
Speaker 1: a rock and bashed the guy's head in with it
Speaker 1: and then stabbed him to death and then apparently raped
Speaker 1: his girlfriend in the in the grass next to the corpse,
Speaker 1: you know, just to let's heart, his dominance, her ownership
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, yeah, a nice guy. But rumor also
Speaker 1: had it that he was a peeping tom, a porn freak,
Speaker 1: a wife beater, and then he sexually abused his daughters.
Speaker 1: Apparently all that stuff was true. Like I said, he
Speaker 1: was not a model citizen. So yeah, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: eventually we need to talk more about this guy because
Speaker 1: a little bit. But well, back to Salvatory though, uh meantime,
Speaker 1: Mario Rotella. The magistrates finally formally accused SALVATORI of being
Speaker 1: the monster. Uh, he couldn't actually build a case against him,
Speaker 1: so he decided instead to charge him with murdering his
Speaker 1: wife back in nineteen sixty one, back in Sardinia. And
Speaker 1: I've heard the details of this case, and it was
Speaker 1: really highly questionable. She supposedly committed suicide, but it looks
Speaker 1: sure as hell, looks to me like he murdered her,
Speaker 1: and he had he had motive. She was screwing around
Speaker 1: on him, so you know, honor and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: but he a motive in his mind in his mind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or and even for his pillow villagers off in the
Speaker 1: hills of Sardinia, that was probably justifiable and enough to
Speaker 1: make them, you know, look the other way when it happened.
Speaker 1: But Salvatore was charged with murder put on trial, and
Speaker 1: that was in eight so he spent early nine six
Speaker 1: eight eight in jail, and then prior to that he
Speaker 1: was under surveillance. So I'm not sure if he's good
Speaker 1: for the murder or not. But anyway, after the trial
Speaker 1: he got off and he left and immediately went back
Speaker 1: to Sardinia and went up into the mountains and disappeared.
Speaker 1: He has never been heard from again. So much for Salvatore. Uh.
Speaker 1: But Pietro Pacciani did not go away, and a different
Speaker 1: set of prosecutors have tried to build a case against him,
Speaker 1: and of course there there was for one thing they
Speaker 1: looked at. They did a search of his house. They
Speaker 1: found a painting that was extremely disturbing. It was a
Speaker 1: really weird and I've not seen the painting, but I've
Speaker 1: heard it described have been great detail, and it does
Speaker 1: sound a little bit creepy, but it was signed, It
Speaker 1: was signed by him and had a little title like
Speaker 1: a science fiction dream or something like that. And and
Speaker 1: it also one of the most damnit things about it
Speaker 1: has had seven crosses that we're in the painting that
Speaker 1: we're planted in the grass in the painting with the
Speaker 1: prosecutors thought might be significant because that's seven seven crimes
Speaker 1: committed by the monster. But if it was him, that
Speaker 1: number is not right because he killed in fifty one
Speaker 1: and if he was also responsible for the early six
Speaker 1: or the sixty killings, it should have been nine crosses,
Speaker 1: should have been eight. I guess eight or nine if
Speaker 1: there's the also killing because he's the guy who, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's the one who in fifty one killed the other guy.
Speaker 1: So like the number doesn't work. Did he kill his
Speaker 1: girlfriend or his ex girlfriend? Now, he did not kill her,
Speaker 1: And that's why that that particular crime didn't really fit
Speaker 1: the d m O the well. I mean, one can
Speaker 1: certainly see how that would escalate. I mean, if that
Speaker 1: was the trigger point, right, that would escalate into him
Speaker 1: doing what he wanted to do to this woman many
Speaker 1: many times over to other women. You know, like I
Speaker 1: can under I can see that that escalation there. I
Speaker 1: can see that argument. But knowing what I know about
Speaker 1: this guy. I don't think he's he's the Monster's not
Speaker 1: our best suspect. I don't think but he But the
Speaker 1: prosecutors were actually liking him quite a lot. But the
Speaker 1: painting that the painting they leaving aside the cross thing.
Speaker 1: As far as as far as the prosecutors were concerned,
Speaker 1: they felt the monster committed seven crimes because they weren't
Speaker 1: counting the sixty eight shootings. They don't think um. And
Speaker 1: although they did find trying to find a really tendentious,
Speaker 1: I think way to link him to the sixty eight shootings,
Speaker 1: just so they could find an explanation as to how
Speaker 1: he had gotten his hands on this gun which was
Speaker 1: used in sixty eight, because there was no connection between
Speaker 1: the Vinci's or the Malays or anybody so in him.
Speaker 1: So you know, that was a kind of tricky, kind
Speaker 1: of a little trick on their part. Uh. The whole
Speaker 1: thing was actually the whole prosecution was of Pacciani, even
Speaker 1: though the guy was a jerk. It was ludicrous. They
Speaker 1: took the painting to a psychologist like and and showed
Speaker 1: it to him, and the psychologist came back with an
Speaker 1: opinion that, well, yeah, you know, it's not inconsistent with
Speaker 1: being painted by a serial killer, I guess. And uh,
Speaker 1: And it turned out that actually Paciani had had plagiarized
Speaker 1: a little bit. Actually was not his painting at all.
Speaker 1: He just he had just like signed his name on it,
Speaker 1: but it was actually painted by some Chilean artists. And
Speaker 1: uh and uh, he's the wrong height, Yeah, yeah, he's
Speaker 1: he's the wrong eye. He's five foot three, I should
Speaker 1: say it was. I don't think he's still alive now.
Speaker 1: He was in poor health, he'd had a heart attack,
Speaker 1: he had a pasima. Not the kind of guy to
Speaker 1: be running around in the woods chasing somebody with a knife. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it. John the French guy who was killed in
Speaker 1: who bolted from the end. He was twenty five years
Speaker 1: old and he was an amateur track star. He specialized,
Speaker 1: specialized in the hundred beaters sprint, you know, and so
Speaker 1: quirk off the blocks, cook off the blocks and fast,
Speaker 1: I'm sure and so that, you know, Pacciani was was
Speaker 1: going to catch up with this guy, I don't think so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I doubt it. Yeah, So, I mean, do we have
Speaker 1: more stuff to talk about before we start talking, because
Speaker 1: it feels like we're starting to talk about theories kind
Speaker 1: of well, I just yeah, we're getting close to theories here,
Speaker 1: were sort of yeah, we are, we are sort of
Speaker 1: disparaging the guilt of this guy. Uh. And of course
Speaker 1: there was his height out of the shoot downwards in
Speaker 1: the in the windows of that b W van. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that must have been that. Uh. They actually kept going
Speaker 1: after Pacciani. They did this unprecedented search of his house,
Speaker 1: which involved like digging up his whole yard, going over
Speaker 1: his house with scientific instruments and everything else. And the
Speaker 1: only thing they found was a twenty two shellcasing. The
Speaker 1: twenty two showcasing was actually had never been fired and
Speaker 1: had the bullet had been removed and there was no
Speaker 1: powder in it, but there was no firing pin market
Speaker 1: so it was, you know, an unfired shell. Uh. And
Speaker 1: so that's all they found. And it did have some
Speaker 1: marking south that looks so it looked like maybe it
Speaker 1: had been loaded in the gun at some point. So
Speaker 1: they showed it to experts, ballistics experts, who came back
Speaker 1: and said, well, yeah, I guess the marketings are not
Speaker 1: totally inconsistent with it being loaded in the twenty two
Speaker 1: like the monster had. And while that was good, in that.
Speaker 1: So it was a pretty pretty weak tea, but the
Speaker 1: prosecution went with that. They prosecuted the guy. There was
Speaker 1: a huge trial that lasted like six months and he
Speaker 1: was convicted on basically no evidence at all, and eventually
Speaker 1: it got thrown out a couple of years later on
Speaker 1: appeal and he was set free, and I think they
Speaker 1: were going to reprosecute him. And they also arrested a
Speaker 1: couple of his associates. Uh, this this whole thing is
Speaker 1: again ludicrous. He had this one associate that that wasn't
Speaker 1: in no way linked to it. And then this other guy,
Speaker 1: as young Carlo Latti, was a village idiot, this this
Speaker 1: little village called San Casciano. And this guy came forward.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he came forward on his own.
Speaker 1: The police just found him and got him taught to
Speaker 1: say this, but he said that he had actually taken
Speaker 1: part in the killing and of the in the tent
Speaker 1: and everything, and and so so seven charged people later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know exactly what. And so these guys were charged
Speaker 1: and convicted even though it's just ludicrous. Uh, and kept
Speaker 1: getting weirder. The police really got into this whole thing
Speaker 1: about the satanic death cult and all this stuff and
Speaker 1: using the monster to get body parts for these rituals,
Speaker 1: and as like as two thousand seven, a pharmacist from
Speaker 1: the town of Sankoskiano, because apparently the police believed that
Speaker 1: this was ground zero for all the satanic activities that
Speaker 1: were going on. So this pharmacist was charged as he
Speaker 1: was accused of being one of the masterminds of the
Speaker 1: monster's killing, and in the end of trial judge dismissed
Speaker 1: the charges, and he actually did so with kind of contempt.
Speaker 1: He basically said, there's just no He didn't say the
Speaker 1: evidence isn't quite there. He said there's no reason to
Speaker 1: believe any of this, and so he threw it all out. Uh,
Speaker 1: and that's about it. Unless the monster moved away, changed
Speaker 1: his m O and kept on killing. The killing seemed
Speaker 1: to have ended in I would say that inaccurate. As
Speaker 1: far as I know the the investigation is still going on,
Speaker 1: and I would not be surprised to read one of
Speaker 1: these days that's yet somebody else has been indicted and
Speaker 1: being put on trial for this thing. I mean, as
Speaker 1: looney as this whole thing has been, and I haven't
Speaker 1: totally captured the insanity of the whole thing. If you
Speaker 1: really want to know here the entire incredible bizarre story,
Speaker 1: read The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston, great book,
Speaker 1: and you'll get the whole insane story there. All right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna let's go to series. But before we do that,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. But even towed ongulates mill
Speaker 1: about and wait until it's their turn. Their patients they
Speaker 1: have all night. They'll just stand bunch together, chewing their
Speaker 1: cud and occasionally letting out a bleak, which is a
Speaker 1: bit ironic if you think about it, because it's that vocalization,
Speaker 1: not their order jumping over the fence, that's most likely
Speaker 1: to keep you up at night. Actually, now that I
Speaker 1: think about it, what's most likely to keep you awake
Speaker 1: is their smell. Oh and um, do you have hardwood floors,
Speaker 1: because if you do all of that jumping up and
Speaker 1: down and milling around is going to do a real
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Speaker 1: to Casper dot com slash sideways and use the offer
Speaker 1: code sideways, you get fifty dollars towards any mattress purchase.
Speaker 1: That's www dot Casper dot com slash sideways and the
Speaker 1: offer code sideways. Terms and conditions apply because hardwood floors
Speaker 1: are a lot more expensive. And we're back, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna actually talk about theories now, not just disparage the
Speaker 1: story as we're going through, Like, yeah, let's talk about theories.
Speaker 1: I guess we could, um, I guess we could start
Speaker 1: with as we just talked about Piero, I guess we
Speaker 1: could talk about him a little bit. Uh it just
Speaker 1: you know, let's knock him out real quick, like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it seems to me like he's just not a good
Speaker 1: fit at all. There's not a shred of evidence too small,
Speaker 1: too out of shape, and they well, and it seems
Speaker 1: like he and then all of his associates. The it
Speaker 1: feels like somebody in the prosecutor's office realized they had
Speaker 1: a gold mine of possible people and just win after
Speaker 1: them all. And it was just a charge fast, like
Speaker 1: we do this, we do that. Because you were talking
Speaker 1: about the fact that they they went after some of
Speaker 1: his associates, right, yeah, they did, yeah so, And he
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, let's just it's the smartest board of people.
Speaker 1: Let's just chorge. I don't know. I think probably what
Speaker 1: they did is they looked at situations in which they
Speaker 1: had a convicted killer who had killed somebody in a
Speaker 1: similar situation which he had hum and he was also,
Speaker 1: by the way, and not a good not a nice person,
Speaker 1: nice person, and they were like, yeah, he probably could
Speaker 1: have done it, just totally ignoring the fact that physically
Speaker 1: he could not have done it, at least not the
Speaker 1: last ones. Yeah so, and there were probably plenty of
Speaker 1: other people out there in the countryside who were also
Speaker 1: as big as jerks as he was too. Unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: that's a sad fact. But next okay, so Piano was
Speaker 1: out Let's see who next to this one? And just
Speaker 1: because not let you know, okay, not so I threw
Speaker 1: him in because, let's face it, if you were going
Speaker 1: to ask Hollywood to make a movie about this story
Speaker 1: and he told the screenwriters to throw in a killer
Speaker 1: twist at the end with a surprise killer, well you know,
Speaker 1: Nataline would probably get the part. Yeah, he would. I
Speaker 1: mean think about it, what this whole draw, this whole
Speaker 1: trauma and everything, And then he could sort of see
Speaker 1: why he would come back and and read that at
Speaker 1: least in the cliche, in the clich minds of Hollywood
Speaker 1: script writers who know what was what was that? Remember
Speaker 1: the good son with what's his name from Home Alone
Speaker 1: Macauley Culkin, where he was just he was the psycho kid.
Speaker 1: I mean, if this was the Hollywood version, it could
Speaker 1: be he could actually have been the one who shot
Speaker 1: his mom and his uncle from the back of the car.
Speaker 1: He could have done the initial killings and it was
Speaker 1: his gun the whole way, like how he statues it.
Speaker 1: Hollywood has to figure out. I mean, it seems like
Speaker 1: a hell of a stretch that bunk, right. A six
Speaker 1: year old kid doesn't like hide a gun for I mean,
Speaker 1: that's not that's not it doesn't matter. I don't care anyway. Um,
Speaker 1: but to suppose that he witnessed and kill his mother
Speaker 1: and then um and you know, presumably, then I guess
Speaker 1: we can say like he was awake and like saw
Speaker 1: them having sex, and they saw the whole thing. And
Speaker 1: if it was somebody who was related to him, he
Speaker 1: could have gotten the gun from it, especially if it
Speaker 1: was his dad who did the shooting. You know, it
Speaker 1: could have been his dad's gun and he just hit it.
Speaker 1: And I don't think his dad actually owned a gun.
Speaker 1: I mean in any way, in any case, anybody who
Speaker 1: was related to him, you know, having the gun given
Speaker 1: it to him and let him live out his childhood traumas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought would be therapeutic for him to go out listen,
Speaker 1: just so you know, this is the gun that killed
Speaker 1: your mother. We thought you should have it because people
Speaker 1: do weird stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, maybe, I you know,
Speaker 1: it's and that bent him permanently. Yeah, it could be. Uh,
Speaker 1: in fairness to him, I have to say, that is
Speaker 1: not a shred of evidence. So you know, it's just that,
Speaker 1: you know it just like again, if Hollywood were making
Speaker 1: a movie out of this, he would definitely be big.
Speaker 1: It would be him. Oh yeah, it probably would be him.
Speaker 1: It would be because of what he went through. But
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so
Speaker 1: I I really can't say how. You know, lots of
Speaker 1: kids go through traumas and don't become serial killers, you know,
Speaker 1: So there's that too. Well, if his I mean, if
Speaker 1: the people who ended up and I don't know what
Speaker 1: the situation was, I don't know who ended up raising
Speaker 1: him or like anything like that, but it sounds like
Speaker 1: the people who were close to him, at least the
Speaker 1: male people that were close to him, were kind of
Speaker 1: all messed up in some way or another. And so
Speaker 1: if if his father and the quote unquote uncles, you know,
Speaker 1: it's even possible that they were saying things like, listen,
Speaker 1: your mother died because what she was doing was a sin.
Speaker 1: But they didn't ever say to him what aspect of
Speaker 1: that was a sent right, So in his mind, it's
Speaker 1: just drilled into him that like having sex in cars
Speaker 1: is horribly horrible and they have to be you know,
Speaker 1: put right, and then there's some weird sexual I'm so
Speaker 1: sure Freud would have a heyday with this. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I agree. I don't think he probably actually
Speaker 1: did it, but I think it's a really compelling, interesting
Speaker 1: rabbit hole to fall down. Oh yeah, And I'm sure
Speaker 1: whatever if he did, even if he didn't become a
Speaker 1: serial killer, I'm sure he has some issues. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: would think, Yeah, quite the evening he had. But so
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I don't, I don't. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna say he was you know, who knows. Maybe. I mean,
Speaker 1: he definitely is not a good fit for the nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four murder. Be guess he would have been about
Speaker 1: like what twelve I mean conceivably, I mean, twelve year
Speaker 1: o k could have drugged you know, could have used again.
Speaker 1: Sure dragon a body about ten twelve meter And I
Speaker 1: thought that seventy four murder was the one where she
Speaker 1: was just stabbed repeatedly but no actual times excision was made. Yeah, exactly, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean a twelve year old. Although maybe, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it's true he could have had help. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, if he was raised by crazy uncles, maybe
Speaker 1: he could have been like, all right, it's time for you,
Speaker 1: let's go, let's go have this cathartic experience, and then
Speaker 1: how he liked it. It's your Yeah, there you go,
Speaker 1: coming of age kid. Yeah, yeah, I don't, but I agree.
Speaker 1: I don't think he didn't. Probably not because who's next
Speaker 1: up on the list. Let's see Francesco Francesco Vinci. Okay, so, um,
Speaker 1: there's there's three Vinciese or something like that. So which
Speaker 1: one is this? This is? Uh? Salvatori and Francesco were
Speaker 1: the two brothers, and then Antonio Benc she was Salvatory's son. Okay,
Speaker 1: and Antonio and and and they were by the way,
Speaker 1: a strange Salvatory and anywhere there's a bunch of Vinci.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to clear it up again because
Speaker 1: it's been well since we talked about him. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, So Francesco the two brothers, and and
Speaker 1: then and then Francesco's nephew, Salvatori's son Antonio. Uh so Francesco, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it does seem like he knew something,
Speaker 1: although again, maybe, like you said, he was just speculating
Speaker 1: that that time to think about it. Two of the
Speaker 1: murders took place while he was in jail, so uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess we want to take the theory
Speaker 1: that it was there was more than one monster, one
Speaker 1: of one person doing it. Perhaps Antonio was committing these
Speaker 1: murders just, you know, while he was in jail, is
Speaker 1: a way to exonerate him. The police were saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: although I'm not sure that I buy that, because if
Speaker 1: he was doing it to just to to get him
Speaker 1: out of jail, then okay, So he kills the two
Speaker 1: German guys and anyway, it's well over a year for
Speaker 1: the next killing. Well maybe he I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like he really liked his brother that month.
Speaker 1: I was just no, we're talking to Antonio and so
Speaker 1: Antonio because Francesco was locked, say, I know it's gonna
Speaker 1: used one last time. So Salvatory's son was Antonio and
Speaker 1: uh and then his and then Francesco was Antonio's uncle,
Speaker 1: and they actually, Francesco and Antonio had a very great relationship.
Speaker 1: They were never very good close buddies. Good neither of
Speaker 1: them like Salvatory. Yeah, neither than did. And so if so,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna take the idea that he committed these
Speaker 1: two murders, I don't think it's the case because I
Speaker 1: don't think he would have waited as long as he did.
Speaker 1: He let his uncle like sit in jail for quite
Speaker 1: a while. Uh where he could have actually, well, okay,
Speaker 1: one murder wasn't enough. Okay, I'll go murder somebody else again. Okay,
Speaker 1: But but to put it, but to put the shoe
Speaker 1: on the other foot, you don't want to press it,
Speaker 1: You don't well, I mean, you know, the cops are everywhere.
Speaker 1: They're out there looking, you don't. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of a it's a dangerous game to be like, well,
Speaker 1: let's go do it again and try and get him
Speaker 1: out faster. Well, you know, you've got to be really
Speaker 1: really careful. And he may have he if it was
Speaker 1: so in this theory, what you're saying is we're you're
Speaker 1: saying it's Antonio who's doing that to get to get Francesco.
Speaker 1: To get Francesco out, he would he would maybe he
Speaker 1: was very very very cautious. He could have been out,
Speaker 1: you know, once every month or two, spotting and going up. Now,
Speaker 1: now you know that guy, that guy livets some weights. Um,
Speaker 1: he will he will club me. I'm not going after
Speaker 1: or no, those people. I don't like to look at him.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a whole whole slew of reasons he
Speaker 1: may have just taken his time. Well, I could think
Speaker 1: of actually one reason that would spoil his kills. You
Speaker 1: know a lot of times as he's the chasing out
Speaker 1: these guys and that some of these some of the
Speaker 1: Varriors show up with their cameras and craft, it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: there's Scott. So that must have been a major impediment
Speaker 1: for him with one of those guys were hanging out
Speaker 1: there at the same time. It's kind of kind of
Speaker 1: amazing that this guy really was pretty good that he
Speaker 1: was never spotted by any of these Varriors who were
Speaker 1: hanging out there all over the places those whats. But
Speaker 1: you know what's funny is that I remember reading about
Speaker 1: the Voyers is that they know not only did they
Speaker 1: have cameras and listening devices, but they had weirdly some
Speaker 1: of the latest technology in night vision goggles. Well let's
Speaker 1: take this. Let's back up. Let's say I'm wanting to
Speaker 1: kill somebody and I come across the Voyor and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you jerk, you just screwed this up, and you beat
Speaker 1: the crap out of the guy and you take his stuff.
Speaker 1: He's not going to call the cops and say, some
Speaker 1: guys stole all of my equipment for people on people
Speaker 1: who were having section cars like so then he would
Speaker 1: get he'd suddenly have things to you. So he might
Speaker 1: be like, oh, hey, these goggles are great. Ope, Nope, nope,
Speaker 1: I see I see Peep and Joe over there. No,
Speaker 1: definitely can't go on that one. This night is a bust.
Speaker 1: And if he's going for nights where it's dark, you know,
Speaker 1: no moon. It's a limited time each month. Yeah, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, there was just that small, that small
Speaker 1: window time and there was always going to be these
Speaker 1: guys out there screwing things up. So yeah, Antonio springing Francesco.
Speaker 1: Now I think that probably Francesco just wasn't the killer. Again,
Speaker 1: although we don't know for a fact that the monster
Speaker 1: was just one guy. Yeah, we don't know that it
Speaker 1: could have been more than one, although probably not. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a pretty specific mutilation and it's pretty brutal, and
Speaker 1: I mean I guess I just in my brain hope
Speaker 1: that like there's not more than one person in any
Speaker 1: given region he was willing to do that. But I
Speaker 1: could be a wrong assumption, but it's my hope in
Speaker 1: this world. Yeah, yeah, most of us, I don't. I
Speaker 1: hope that most of us can't do stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I don't think I could. Mostly, I just hope that,
Speaker 1: you know, the one if it was one of the Vinci's,
Speaker 1: you know, they came back and they were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just did this thing, and like look at this
Speaker 1: thing that I got and everyone was like dude, no, no.
Speaker 1: But in that story, right, we're saying that he came
Speaker 1: back he was like, look at what I just did,
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, yeah, I can get on board
Speaker 1: with that. I could do that problem. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it was an initiation, right, that's some like Texas
Speaker 1: chainsaw mask her crazy. Yeah, it's like like the hills
Speaker 1: have eyes kind of yeah. Sorry, yeah, it's that kind
Speaker 1: of Yes. Yeah, I don't think. I think these guys
Speaker 1: were not model citizens. I don't know if they were
Speaker 1: all that twisted and messed up. So, I mean, so,
Speaker 1: do we have a good suspect. I mean, well, there's
Speaker 1: there was one possibility because salvatare Um, you know, salvotare Is.
Speaker 1: Maybe because he's the other brother, Yes, Salbotore uh Antonio's dad.
Speaker 1: He left the country well, he was in jail from
Speaker 1: early eight six onward. He was under surveillance prior to that,
Speaker 1: but then and then he left in ninety eight, so
Speaker 1: that would account for if he was the killer, that
Speaker 1: would account for why they stopped so, which makes salvatory.
Speaker 1: Although at the same time he was being followed by
Speaker 1: the police quite a lot. I can't imagine that they
Speaker 1: were all too subtle about that. No, they weren't. He
Speaker 1: was aware of being followed generally at least, and so
Speaker 1: he knew he was being followed. So it would have
Speaker 1: been pretty ballsy on his part to go out and
Speaker 1: commit a murder. I mean, all the other ones you
Speaker 1: have with the murder, that was when he was really,
Speaker 1: you know, starting to come to their attention. Can you
Speaker 1: remind me what was the progression of her of Barbara's
Speaker 1: progression through the Vinci brothers. Was it Francisco first or
Speaker 1: was it Salvatory. It was Salvatory first, and then Francesco
Speaker 1: Francesco and then and not Antonio the nephew, but Antonio Lobianko,
Speaker 1: who was not related to them. Yeah, okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I can see Stefano feeling really jilted. And
Speaker 1: then again doing nothing that we're kind of talking about
Speaker 1: with um with Natalino, where he just never quite got
Speaker 1: over the slight and you know, maybe because he when
Speaker 1: he initially murdered Barbara, he was feeling like, oh, um,
Speaker 1: I can't you know the kids right here, I care
Speaker 1: about this kid. I can't you know, take out all
Speaker 1: of my rage on her. And so he had that
Speaker 1: kind of weirdness in his brain and that he was
Speaker 1: trying to work out. You know, again that's probably cognizant
Speaker 1: of like what but yeah, I mean I'm talking Salvadora.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so you think he was feeling a
Speaker 1: little guilt over the well that he didn't that he
Speaker 1: had more anger towards Barbara than he was able to
Speaker 1: express because Natalino was there in the back seat, and
Speaker 1: so he cared about Natalino, and he you know, took
Speaker 1: him and took him to a safe That's yeah, that's
Speaker 1: why the six one didn't have any mutilation. And then
Speaker 1: maybe he was able to kind of or he was
Speaker 1: trying to suppress it, you know. So that's why there
Speaker 1: was such a big gap between that one and then one,
Speaker 1: and then it just kind of ramps up. He does
Speaker 1: it once and he's like, oh no, he's like so
Speaker 1: compelled to just keep working it out. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I had no idea either, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but not a criminal psychologist. I mean he eventually, yeah,
Speaker 1: they got over and he went back to um Sardinia
Speaker 1: and became a serial killer there. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's possible, Yeah, it could be, but yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so possible. But again, it's these guys were sneaky
Speaker 1: because they never really left much in the way of evidence.
Speaker 1: There's one of the last guy, and this guy is
Speaker 1: actually kind of the favorite of a lot of people,
Speaker 1: and that is Antonio Vinci. We've talked at length about already. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we talked about him a little bit. Well, you'll remember
Speaker 1: police were suspicious Francesco because he was close to the
Speaker 1: scene of to kill things and he was actually at
Speaker 1: both those times he was hanging out with Antonio, so
Speaker 1: that was and in one in one case, Antonio lived
Speaker 1: a mere six kilometers from the murder side, so that
Speaker 1: that's that's actually as much of a finger of guilt
Speaker 1: towards Antonio as to Francesco, just for that alone. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was talking to Mario Spetcy the journalist and Douglas Preston.
Speaker 1: They actually pit and cornered him in his own kitchen,
Speaker 1: and he at that time acknowledged that he owned a
Speaker 1: scuba knife. Now, whether he was just tweaking them, I
Speaker 1: don't know us, but a scuba knife, because he was
Speaker 1: talking about how his bad relationship with the smothered salvatory
Speaker 1: and he talked about how they got in this really
Speaker 1: big knockdown fight and he had him down on the
Speaker 1: floor pin then he had a scuba and I had
Speaker 1: my scuba knife to his throat. Yeah, And maybe he
Speaker 1: was just being kind of actually kind of being taunting
Speaker 1: them about the case, because he had to have known
Speaker 1: that they thought he was maybe the killer. He was
Speaker 1: according to what they talked to him, they found that
Speaker 1: he was extremely up on the case. He was very
Speaker 1: familiar with it. Although that's to be expected even if
Speaker 1: he's not the killer, he's involved. He likes to be
Speaker 1: or not he's It pays to know the details of
Speaker 1: the case that you were suspected of being involved in. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing about Antonio is he'd be about the right
Speaker 1: age for it. And he actually moved away from Florence
Speaker 1: between the years night so that means that whole gap
Speaker 1: between the seventy four killing and killing, well, that could
Speaker 1: sort of be accounted for by Francesco being out of town. Uh.
Speaker 1: So that would account for why there had been no
Speaker 1: murders between the seventy four murder and the nine eighty
Speaker 1: one murder. So that fits. Uh. And he knowledged to
Speaker 1: Preston and and Spetcy when he talked to them that
Speaker 1: he was with Francesco when Francesco hid the car in
Speaker 1: the woods way back in like eighty two. And that's
Speaker 1: about it. That's not a huge amount of evidence. I mean,
Speaker 1: what what My biggest problem so far with all of
Speaker 1: this is that, with the exception of Pietro, this is
Speaker 1: all focused on one family. Oh well, we can't make
Speaker 1: it work with this guy. Let's try the other guy.
Speaker 1: Oh it didn't work with him, Let's try it with
Speaker 1: the other relative. Like this, this is so easy to
Speaker 1: me too. Well, let's expand their scope of the investigation
Speaker 1: from this one family. And I know that they looked
Speaker 1: into a lot of people, but it is just so
Speaker 1: easy to have been somebody completely unrelated to this family.
Speaker 1: And that's what I think, that's what makes this case
Speaker 1: such a winner for people and so intriguing and why
Speaker 1: it's been around so strong. But it's like, I don't
Speaker 1: know why the cops went about it in the way
Speaker 1: that they did in terms of the Vinci's like, we've
Speaker 1: got to focus on the It's frustrating to me. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: after the connection was made to the Buretta handgun, I
Speaker 1: can understand why they would want to give them a
Speaker 1: good thorough look see, but overboard, well, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is it's always possible that
Speaker 1: the gun actually left their hands and they might have
Speaker 1: sold it, lost it, they could have been stolen from them.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always possible that and if they are
Speaker 1: associating with ne'er do wells, it could very easily end
Speaker 1: up in the hand of yet another murder. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've seen these stories in the news before where somebody
Speaker 1: gets found with a gun on them and they say, well,
Speaker 1: I bought that gun, and that gun is connected to
Speaker 1: murders via the blistics. How did you get it? Well,
Speaker 1: I bought it from the kid on the corner who
Speaker 1: I buy I buy my coke from. You know, I
Speaker 1: needed a gun, so I bought it from him. It
Speaker 1: turns out it was a gun that was using a
Speaker 1: crime happen. These things happen, I mean, or the Vinci's
Speaker 1: knew a bunch of kind of crappy people. Well they did,
Speaker 1: especially Francesco. He was he hung out with a lot
Speaker 1: of criminals. And so, you know, he says, I gotta
Speaker 1: get rid of this gun. It's hot. I used it
Speaker 1: in murder. The cops are onto me. It's really it's
Speaker 1: got a really specific shot pattern. And some guy says, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll buy from you. Yeah. He probably didn't even say
Speaker 1: it was used in a murder. He probably just said,
Speaker 1: you know, he had a friend who was looking for
Speaker 1: a gun. He says, I'll sell you this one. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Problem yeah, which is joe Y, I don't buy guns
Speaker 1: from you, a smart reason. Yeah yeah. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: so it's entirely possible. Yeah that that this. I think
Speaker 1: that the crowd that committed the six St eight murder.
Speaker 1: I believe that those guys probably were all involved the family.
Speaker 1: It was a clan killing, but not necessarily. All the
Speaker 1: later killings not necessarily, but beyond that, who the hell knows. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I struggled to believe that the entire thing was
Speaker 1: done by that that entire family, because that is just such.
Speaker 1: There's an a level of organization to it that I
Speaker 1: cannot see a fighting family being able to maintain, especially
Speaker 1: with some of the specificity that was done in terms
Speaker 1: of the attacks on the women and stuff like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Long term, it's like, if you're capable of doing that
Speaker 1: just for this, you probably are doing a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of other things and you should have been found. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think we can all agree that we don't
Speaker 1: like any of them. Yeah, no, I mean I think
Speaker 1: that's Antonio definitely as possible as a possibility. But you know,
Speaker 1: as far as you know what, I sent him to jail,
Speaker 1: what I vote to send him away now because now, no,
Speaker 1: the oven'tence really isn't there. Um, And you never know,
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe someday the gun will turn up and
Speaker 1: we'll find out where it's been all these years, and
Speaker 1: we'll get a better idea of you know, maybe who
Speaker 1: really was was the killer and that's in the bottom
Speaker 1: of a river. Yeah, probably that. There's always that possibility.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, so the monster. Unfortunately we didn't quite
Speaker 1: solve this one. Or hanging on Choopy, Sorry Choopy. He
Speaker 1: likes a notoriety. He does yeah, he does. He enjoys
Speaker 1: that stuff. You guys got any more theories for I
Speaker 1: think we've exhausted this one pretty well. I think so well,
Speaker 1: let me let me tell you guys a few fun
Speaker 1: facts you're really gonna want to know. First off, you
Speaker 1: might want to like, you know, especially if you're the killer,
Speaker 1: please send us an email. And our email is Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And uh, and we
Speaker 1: also have one of those website thingies. That website is
Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can download listen to
Speaker 1: our episodes right there. H And also we've got a
Speaker 1: link for merch there too. Oh yeah on the website yea, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you can there's there's a survey is on their
Speaker 1: The merch is on there, all of that stuff stuff
Speaker 1: so you can buy mugs, t shirts, all kinds of
Speaker 1: good stuff. Uh what else? Other places you can find
Speaker 1: us would be on iTunes, where you can subscribe. You
Speaker 1: can rate us, preferably a five star rating. We like
Speaker 1: those better and give us a review. That's great to uh.
Speaker 1: And streaming we can be streamed like from everywhere. Google
Speaker 1: Play is a big one. I know there's a lot
Speaker 1: of others this anywhere you find good past anywhere you
Speaker 1: get fine podcast, there you go. And social media we're
Speaker 1: there too. We're on Facebook where we have a group
Speaker 1: in a page. So joined the group, like the page
Speaker 1: or is it like the group joined the page. I
Speaker 1: can't remember just joining the group liking the page. There
Speaker 1: you go. Okay, sorry with the confusion. We're on Twitter,
Speaker 1: where we are thinking sideways without that g And we
Speaker 1: have a subreddit thinking sideways. What's going on the subreadit
Speaker 1: these days? And stuff okay and junk okay. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's about it. I already told you about the
Speaker 1: merchant and stuff like that. So I think we're done
Speaker 1: for this week, all right, until next week. Chow, I
Speaker 1: don't know the language by