1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,239 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by this actually 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: kind of nice hotel room, but I'm staying in right now. Instead, 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: It's brought to you by Bosch Season three, Amazon's acclaimed 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: crime series Bosch is back for a third season for 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: Detective Harry Bosch, Solving crime isn't a job, It's an 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: obsession that can claim your soul. After a long search 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: for his mother's killer leads him to a police cover up, 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: Bosch now finds himself implicated in the death of a 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: serial killer he's investigating. Sounds like one of our episodes, 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: starring Titus Welliver as Bosch and based on a best 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: selling novel by Michael Conley. Stream season three on Amazon 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: Prime starting April one. Thinking Sideways roll to the what 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: can happen today? I don't know stories of things. We 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: simply don't know the answa ton Hey, thereon, Welcome to 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: always by Steve and Devin, and we're here for another 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: cool mystery h this one from the lovely country of Italy. 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: The Motherland. Yeah, that's right, Devon's motherland. And Devon has 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: been indispensable in pronunciation for this episode. So that's like 20 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: literally all I've given to this. The rest of it 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: has been kind of negative, like, oh, are you kidding? 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: We're doing this one? Not interested? Now? This one's about 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: a serial killer who roamed the streets of Florence in 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. You may have heard of him. But 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: before I talk about it, word a warning. There's some 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: really kind of disturbing mutilation here that a lot of 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: people will find disturbing, and because really you should, because 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: it is and if little years are around, probably should 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: save it for later. Yeah, my kids for the next hour, 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: just your muff. Yeah, you have seen the script. It's 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: gonna be two hours. I'm gonna talk fast. Days later. 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk really one pair of hands later. Okay, 33 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: with that out of the way, let's talk about murder 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: and mayhem. We're talking, of course, about an Italian serial killer. 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: So who else could we be talking about but the 36 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: monster of Florence. Yeah, this is a big one. And 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: by the way, this was suggested by Paulo. Paulo, thanks 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: very much. I assume you must be our other Italian listener. 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: There's Luigi and others of you. So hey, dude, thanks 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: a lot. We appreciate it. I hope you're still listening, 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: by the way. But the Monster, and there have been 42 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: other Italian serial killers, by the way, and some pretty 43 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: good ones, but the Monster is really the star infamous. 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: Oh he's huge. He's Jack the Ripper, He's the Italian 45 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper and uh, which always gets the public's attention. Uh. 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: The other thing about it was he was really praising 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: and the way he operated. I mean he would go 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: and kill people, like right next to a road and 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: stuff in view where a car could just drive on by. 50 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: He's mutilating a corpse. You know that he was. He 51 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: was pretty bold. Yeah, he in that regard. He makes 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: me think of like the it's the text, are Canna 53 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: Moon like murders? Yeah, I kind of like that, except 54 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: a lot more sick and twisted. Well, I was just 55 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: talking about being willing to do it when your a 56 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: road and all of that fear. Oh yeah, for sure. 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: The Monster has a much bigger body count though it's 58 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: a lot bigger. Uh. Another thing about and it still 59 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: captures the attention of people is that he never got caught, 60 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: which means there's a pretty good chance that he may 61 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: still be walking around among us. Today, which is a 62 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: little scary creeps me out. That's why I don't go 63 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: to that country. Yeah, I stay away from Italy and all. 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: The monster killed between fourteen and sixteen people that we 65 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: know of, and there's a little dispute about one set 66 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: of murders there, which we'll talk about, and that's not 67 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: a record, of course, but it's still a pretty respectable number. 68 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: Respectable is that the word they care? That's a lot. 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: It's not respectable though, but yeah, well let's just I mean, 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, I hopefully people know what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. 71 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: The bulk of the murders took place between nine and 72 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: night five, but there was also in nineteen seventy four 73 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: murder that was connected, and then in nine two, after 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: six people have been killed, another connection was made to 75 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: a nineteen sixty eight double murder, which if you include 76 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: that makes sixteen murders all in all. So I'm gonna 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: start with the first murder first. Yeah, So this happened 78 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: in August one, nineteen sixty eight. The murder ease were 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: Antonio Lobianco and Barbara Locchi, who were having sex in 80 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: the front seat of Antonio's Alfa Romeo Barbara's son, Notalino 81 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: made was in the back of the car asleep, So 82 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: that's a little that's a little weird, I guess, I 83 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: think even for the average Italian, that's probably a little weird. 84 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: A little background on the whole thing, because this is 85 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of an important one of the murders. Uh Barbara 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: was married to a Starginian immigrant named Stefano Mede. Uh. 87 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: Barbara herself was Sardinian and her marriage syste Hana was 88 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: apparently arranged. She was twenty years older than her and 89 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: apparently very unintelligence from what I have heard, and I 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: guess that he was not quite her romantic idea, because 91 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: she really screwed around on him a lot, and although 92 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: later reports said that he actually didn't mind, he was 93 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: actually kind of into it, so like to be cuckolded 94 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: apparently something. Barbara's latest boyfriend was Antonio Lobianco, which is 95 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: why they were together. Antonio was a bricklayer, a very 96 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: recent Stardini an immigrant himself. On the night of the murder, 97 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: Barbara she had a date with Antonio, which involved first 98 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: going to see a horror movie and then heading up 99 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: into the hills for a little lover's rank Lane romance. 100 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: And as I mentioned before, Barbara's son, Notalino, was along 101 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: for the whole date. Barbara was not the mother of 102 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: the year. Not better than leaving him alone home. I 103 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: don't know, taking your taking your six year old kids 104 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: to see a horror movie that seems a little bit well, 105 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean like Creature Creature of the Black Lagoon, like 106 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: you would take your kid to see that. Maybe, I 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: guess it depends. I can see where some kids would 108 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: be a little at that age might be a little traumatized. 109 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: But he might not have been, well, he was traumatized 110 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: by a later events. Probably, Yeah, we're talking about that 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: here in a second. Uh. And also something about Italian culture. 112 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: Probably most of you have heard this. People tend to 113 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: live at home until they get married, and often even 114 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: after they get married, they still live at home. But 115 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: that makes it kind of tricky to have romance, if 116 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: you know, A yeah, and so, well, you know, a 117 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: lot of Italians are Catholic. Oh there's that too, So 118 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: that helps in the living at home situation. Oh yeah, 119 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: good point. Okay, Well, anyway, along, Luckily for the youth 120 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: of Italy, somebody invented the car, and then about five 121 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: minutes later, somebody else figured out that you can have 122 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: sex in cars, and so in any given the evening, 123 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: but especially on the weekends, the hills around Florence, Italy 124 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: were full of little dinky Fiat and Alpha's with bumper 125 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: stickers that said, don't come knocking if it's rocking in Italian. Yah. Yeah, 126 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: there was lots of that going on. And of course 127 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: that's bond. It's a weird little subculture of guys that 128 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: were called Indians by the locals. These were they were 129 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: the lawyers all years. He sculpted around with monocular night 130 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: vision devices and cameras and and spied on all these 131 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: young couples having sex. Just weird in its own way. Yeah, 132 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: there was, like I said, a whole network of these 133 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: people out there. So what Antonio and Barbara were doing 134 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: really was not at all unusual, except for perhaps a 135 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: kid in the back seat, but also maybe not that, 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: maybe not even I don't know, maybe have the whole 137 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: family in the back seat. Probably not mom and dad, 138 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: I hope, because that's the whole reason you're in a 139 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: car to begin with, right, Usually Yeah, But anyway, they 140 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: drove up a dirt road. They were actually outside Floridence 141 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: city limits to the west. They found a nice little 142 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: parking spot next to a stand of cane and proceeded 143 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: to let nature take his course and a little netal 144 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, got a nice biology lessons. Well, he was 145 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: asleep in the back right, if he was asleep, supposedly 146 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: he was asleep. I know, six year olds can often 147 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: sleep through kind of anything. I guess that's true. Yeah, 148 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: But what, of course Antonio and Barbara didn't know, is 149 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: that somebody was lurking in the cane next to the car. 150 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: Don't don't If it was corn, I wouldn't have been surprised. Yeah, 151 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: not not corn. One of the rear windows of the 152 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: Alpha was rolled down. It was a warm August night. 153 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: Uh and at that time, of course, nobody was all 154 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: that worried about serial killers. Um, but would be one 155 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: of these days, but not quite yet. Somebody came out 156 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: of the cane, tiptote over to the car, stuck automatic 157 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: pistol through the window, and started shooting. In the end, 158 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: Antonio and Barbara were shot four times each, and little Nettie, 159 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, did I mentioned that he was six years old, 160 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: was awakened by some blinding flashes and deafening gunshots, and uh, yeah, 161 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: he had quite a night. First the horror movie, then 162 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: he sees copulation, and then he witnesses a double murder. 163 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: So I mean, that's quite a it's quite a night. 164 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: I never definitely made an impression on him for the 165 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: rest of his life that would really say. It was 166 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: the last thing on that list is what made the 167 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: biggest impression. But I'm sure next he was seen at 168 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: a house two and a half kilometers down the road saying, quote, 169 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: mommy and uncle are dead in the carne. Apparently she 170 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: called all of her boyfriend were called all of Barbara's 171 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: boyfriends were called uncle. Yeah, so we had a lot 172 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: of uncles. That's I mean, that's probably one of the 173 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: least traumatizing ways to deal with that, right, what do 174 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: you mean? Yeah, I mean until maybe someday he comes 175 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: daddy and like you just explain that to the kid 176 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: and you say, like he's moving at six, it's really 177 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: not an issue, right, But it's easier than saying, like, 178 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: this is my boyfriend. He's replacing daddy. Oh yeah, absolutely, 179 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: you know, but it also explains why he's like staying 180 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: over all the time. You should like him, Yeah, all 181 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: uncles do this, right, Yeah, maybe hopefully, hopefully, really hopeful. 182 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: I hope. I'm an uncle and I don't do that well. 183 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: So do we know how he got to Uh No, 184 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean he could have walked. I doubt it. Actually, 185 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: it's the smart kids think that Stefan, his dad Stefano, 186 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: was there and that he took part in the murder 187 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: and that he actually carried him to this house and 188 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: dropped him off. Leno said that a man put him 189 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: on his shoulders, saying a show tune like off a 190 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: TV show that was on I believe, and that guy 191 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: was probably the murderer, but that he carried him all 192 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: to this house and then set him down and put 193 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: him there. And because they say that the doorbell was 194 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: too high for him at a six year old at 195 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: his height who have reached up and hit it, so 196 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: they think that there had to be an adult there 197 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: to push the button and then run away. Sounds likely, yeah, 198 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: And I frankly, you know, I know we may talk 199 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: about this. It sounds like his story changed a lot, 200 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: and he says he doesn't remember anything, and I realistically 201 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: like he was six years old and he saw his 202 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: mom get brutally murdered. So I am not surprised. I mean, 203 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: I make things up from when I was six, and 204 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: they were not traumatic at all, you know, So I'm 205 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: not surprised that he would not have any real memories 206 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: or anything he was willing to identify as real memories 207 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: from that time. Well yeah, i'd be a little fragment 208 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: at the league and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean 209 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: I know that my memory, my memory changed in weird ways. 210 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: I'll go back and check his story that I was 211 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: sure was this way, and I find out I've got 212 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: a lot of details wrong, ye, or I'll you know, 213 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: I'll tell my mom this has been happening a lot 214 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: all like say, oh yeah, I remember when this blah 215 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: blah bla happened. And she's like, you, um, you weren't there. 216 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: You've seen lots of pictures of that. And I'm like, 217 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: oh yeah, and those false memories. I invented the memory 218 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: because I've heard the story and seen pictures, and so 219 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: I have put myself in that position. Long story short, 220 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that his story is all over the map. No, 221 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: not really. But back to our murder um. So, whenever 222 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: a married woman and her lover murdered. Well, who do 223 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: you go look at first? Stefan Stefano, the husband, Yeah, 224 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: the holiday man. At first he claimed that he was 225 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: home in bed sick when the murders took place, but 226 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: that alibi didn't hold up, and then police did a 227 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: paraffin test on him, you know what those are protected, 228 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: checking for a gunshot residue, and they found some of 229 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: that on his right hand, indicating he had fired again 230 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: very recently, and that didn't look so good. He also 231 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: gave conflicting stories, and he sort of sort of started 232 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: admitting that he had been there, but then he claimed 233 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: that a guy named Salvatore Vinci was an actual gunman. Uh. 234 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: And then he changed his story and said the Salvatory brother, 235 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: Francesco Vinci, was the one who pulled the trigger. Um, 236 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: And then he changed his story back again and eventually 237 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: recanted that story. I've always wondered if he was if 238 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: his intelligence was as low as it is made out 239 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: to be in the stuff that I've read. I wonder 240 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: how much of his story was led. Do you know 241 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Because that's that's we think. We've talked 242 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: about this before, that it's easy to get a witness 243 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: to start telling you a story the way that they 244 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: think you want them to, because they don't realize that 245 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: they're implicating themselves. Yeah, and uh, and police do sometimes 246 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: have a way of trying to put words in your 247 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: mouth when they interrogate, intentionally or not. Yeah, sometimes they'll 248 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: they'll they'll do sneaky stuff to get you to fest up. 249 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: But uh, well, let me give some background of Salvatory 250 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: and Francesco. They immigrated to Tuscany from Sardinia in the 251 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and Salvatore rented a room for a while 252 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: in Stefano and Barbara's house, and so of course he 253 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: became one of Barbara's lovers and an uncle, yeah, an 254 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: uncle yeah. And then later Francesco Salvatori and Francesco, even 255 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: though they were brothers, they actually didn't like each other. 256 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: They were rivals and everything. And so Francesco stole Barbara 257 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: away from Salvatore and became the uncle and became the uncle. Uh. 258 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: And then after that, eventually it's Antonio, who was an 259 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: even more recent immigrant from Sardinia, while he stole her 260 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: away from Francesco, became the last uncle and became the 261 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: last uncle. So this is an episode of my three uncles, 262 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: my more than three probably but uh but in a sense, 263 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Salvatori and Francesco had a motive from murder, so that 264 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Stefano jilted lovers and the jilted husband. Yeah, yeah, and 265 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: uh so and uh. Plus there was some stolen money involved, 266 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: There was some family honor involved, so there were some 267 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: other family members possibly there. It's it's complicated anyway. Salvatore, 268 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: because his name had been mentioned, they brought him down 269 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: to the station for questioning, and reportedly, when Salvatore walked 270 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: into the room, Stefano immediately recanted his story and just 271 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: said that he'd done the whole thing by himself. So 272 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Salvatore apparently, you know, had some sort of intimidating effect 273 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: on Stefano. Well, we'll find out more about that later. 274 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: If you guys are good your vegetables and maybe I'll 275 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: tell you. Oh yeah, now, the gun. The police asked 276 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: him what happened to the gun, and Stefano said that 277 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: he's threw it into a dish. So police searched all 278 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: dishes in the nearby area and never did find the gun. 279 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: They were able to idea the model of the gun though, 280 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: because every gun manufacturer uses different processes for like rifling 281 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: and such, so you can always check tell the model. 282 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: The firing pin makes a different depending on the model, 283 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: the gun makes a different imprint on the shell casing. Uh. 284 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: It was a Baretta twenty two handgun, very common in Italy, 285 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: and ring pin and this one was pretty unique. Uh well, 286 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: yeah it was. It was a rectangular firing pin and 287 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: this particular and all firing any firing pin in the gun. 288 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: And then the same model a gun, it's going to 289 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: have my new differences, just like fingerprints and everything else. 290 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: And this one had a special little defect in it 291 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: that was that was you know, very very unique, and 292 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: that it had a dimple in it, and so it 293 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: left a very unique mark on the shell casings. And 294 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: it didn't it didn't tend to hit in the center 295 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: anywhere near the center, and all of the images I 296 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: saw it always hit on the kind of the outer 297 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: edge of the shell casing. Yeah. That was a rim 298 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: fire cartridge. Oh yeah, so that's why, that's why, that's 299 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: that's why they call it fire. I completely just glossed 300 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: over the rim fire press like it was really weird 301 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: that it was always hitting on the outside. Did you write, man, 302 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: you had one job? Yeah, well, okay, you're off the force. 303 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: So did they ever find it? They never found the 304 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: gun still to this day, to this day, as far 305 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: as I know, it was never found. Yeah, you could 306 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: be the owner of that gun, you know. Yeah, I 307 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: might have picked it up at the gun show you okay, Yeah, 308 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: you might have picked it up a gun show listener. 309 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you got a Bretta twenty two semi 310 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: automatic gun and take a yeah, it looks old and 311 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: it's kept blood on it. Yeah. The police, for their part, 312 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: where they were a little skeptical about Stefano's story because 313 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: he was a small, weak guy, not very bright. It 314 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: seemed like a fairly well planned little murder, and Salvatory 315 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: and Francesco were scarier, scarier guys. I mean, Francesco was 316 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: known to be involved in a lot of criminal activity, 317 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: and they seemed to have some motive also, so it 318 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: wasn't beyond the realm of belief that they also could 319 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: have been involved in this killing at all. I mean, 320 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: both of them obviously had a reason, I want to 321 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: shoot Antonio right at the very least. In fact, all 322 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: three of them did on the other hand, here they 323 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: had a suspect who was saying that he had done 324 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: it all himself. So they had a confession. This guy 325 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: had a strong motive, They had physical evidence of his 326 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: involvement and his kid. By the way, Natalino and the 327 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: statements to the police did say, at least at first 328 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: before he said he couldn't remember anything, he did say 329 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: that his dad was there at the murder scene. And 330 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: so it looked, you know, it looked at them like 331 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: they had a pretty strong case. He was guilty. He 332 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: was guilty, apparently even if other people were involved. So 333 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: they went ahead and sent him a trial. He was 334 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: sentenced to fourteen years in prison, got out after about 335 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: six years and went to live in a halfway house. 336 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: So that would have sorry, yeah, it just can you 337 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: do the math for me real quick? That would have 338 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: put him out of jail in what year. I'm not sure. 339 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: I think he got out in seventy five, because I 340 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: don't think the trial took place until sixty nine. He 341 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: gets out in like seventy five or so, that's fine. 342 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering as we go forward. Yeah, yeah, well 343 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to. I took I did the same math 344 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: because I was wondering if he was out of jail 345 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: at the time the nineteen seventy four murders happened, and 346 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: he was not. He was still in prison when those 347 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: murders happened. Speaking of nineteen seventy four, September fifties, nineteen 348 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: seventy four, about ten miles nrtiess of Florence near a 349 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: town called borg San Lorenzo, which is beautiful. Have you 350 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: been there? Yes? Okay, how many times have you been 351 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: to Italy two just to let's do Yeah, well it's 352 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: more than me. Yea, hopefully a lot more frequently in 353 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: the near future. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm hoping that 354 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: we can all go over there in some sort of 355 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: mystery expedition one of these days. This one. Dang, Yeah, 356 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: I know, we can go. We can do a remix. 357 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: We'll do it again. Yeah, we'll do a mashup. And 358 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: I suppose it's only fair to the citizens of Florence 359 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,239 Speaker 1: to note that, as far as I can tell from 360 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: looking at a map, none of the Monster's killings actually 361 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: took place within the city limits of Florence. They were 362 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: all in suburban, outlying kind of agricultural areas, which makes sense, 363 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: those are these places to park? All right? Exactly? Uh 364 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: so I guess we should really call him the monster 365 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: the greater Metropolitan Florence area. Yeah yeah, yeah, Well back 366 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: to our murder. Here. There were two teenagers, Stefania Pettini 367 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: and Pascale gent. I think it's how this pronounced the 368 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: third syllable, second syllable emphasis. Okay, uh They were in 369 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: a Fiat. Just about all these murders took places in Fiat's. 370 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: Surprised popular Maybe it was that there were some alpha's 371 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: in there too, yeah BMW yeah, some competitive yeah, yes, 372 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: especially next year BMWK about the whole series of magazine 373 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: and said, you know, and drive a beam or don't 374 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: get killed crazy. Yeah. Well, they were doing something in 375 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: their car, I'm not sure what. They got bush whacked 376 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: and shot, and then Stefania was dragged away from the 377 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: car a little distance about ten meters or so and 378 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: stabbed ninety seven times and not not deep stabbed, but 379 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: they were just like more like pricks, just really shallow stabs. 380 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: But I'm sorry, I'm going to be the soundtrack for 381 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: the It's just like, what do you hear when you 382 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: get to some of the women later on? I guess 383 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: what worse. Yeah, but these steps made up and they 384 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: weren't random. They made up like an elaborate design that 385 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: went around Stefani's breasts and down to republic area and around. Yeah. 386 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: It also took place next to a vineyard, and the 387 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: murder found a little scrap of woody grape vine material 388 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: which he stuffed up into Stefani's private parts. Um, and 389 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: that's about it. No evidence of rape. Oh yeah, he 390 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: didn't use his own Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh. The 391 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: gun and the knife were not recovered, but analysis of 392 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: the bullets and the showcasing showed that the murder weapon 393 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: was a rut A twenty two handgun. But of course 394 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: no connection was made at that time. I mean, these 395 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: two things were about fifteen miles apart, in six years 396 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: and six years apart, and you know, one really looked 397 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: like it really was a jealous husband thing that didn't 398 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: and then whereas this one more like a random Cico type. 399 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: So I can see why people wouldn't associate them necessarily 400 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: in their minds. And then some years went by, our 401 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: next killing didn't happen until he took a long break 402 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: there maybe he was out of town. Uh, but on Saturday, 403 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: June six. So, by the way, these all took almost 404 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: all of these murders took place on Saturday nights, some 405 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: of them on Friday, but almost all of them are 406 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: I think one of them was on a Thursday. Um, 407 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: and there was one of I think the first one, 408 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: eight one was a Tuesday. Well I remember one of 409 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: them was a Thursday because the next day was a 410 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: workman's day off. Yeah, but but mostly it was a 411 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: weekend thing, which is where the action is going to be. 412 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: That's when people are out in their cars copulating. And 413 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: uh also they have it on moonless or nearly moonless nights. Um. Yeah. Anyway, 414 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: so intelligently planned, right, yeah, I think so planned being 415 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: the operative word there. Yeah, yeah, that's just yeah. It 416 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: was not a random guy kind of guy at all. Uh. 417 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: So this was Saturday, June six. Giovanni Fogi or fog. 418 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: Giovanni Foji and Carmela di Nuccio were parked in probably 419 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: a few in the hilltop area caused Sandici, which is 420 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: on the southwest outskirts of Florence. Uh. It looks like 421 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: Giovanni was shut first through the car window and then 422 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: Carmelo was killed. She was dragged from the car about 423 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: you know again the tenner fifteen meters. She was found 424 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: naked and on her back. I saw some some video 425 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: this one actually, well not the actual killing, but you know, 426 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: her body afterwards, there was some video taking at the crime. 427 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah and uh yeah, well they had covered her body, 428 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: but she was she was naked. And this one there 429 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: was some escalation because her pubic area had been cut 430 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: out of her body and taken away. Okay, I hate 431 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: to ask this, but how much of like the whole 432 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: works Well, I mean the vagina was taken away. I 433 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: mean not everything, but I mean the entire vagina was 434 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: so like the whole vaginal canal and all that stuff. 435 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how deep down the knife went mentioned 436 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: how long. So we're saying in primarily external. It wasn't 437 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: like an internal internal one fairly deep. I mean it 438 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't a skin deep kind of thing. It 439 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: was actually a pretty huge chunk of plastic carved out. Yeah, 440 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty pretty gross. The medical examiner concluded that 441 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: the excision had been done with the one he called 442 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: a scuba knife because he believed the knife had a 443 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: notch in it. And I'm not sure exactly what made 444 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: him to conclude that, but you know, those guys know 445 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: what they're talking about, so he was probably right. There 446 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: probably wasn't notch in the blade. Scool. A lot of 447 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: scuba knives do have notches in the blade, but there 448 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: are different locations depending on the kind of knife. That's 449 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: quite confusion, yeah, depending I I I found some pictures 450 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: of various ones on the interwebs that I included one 451 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: here for you guys to look at, and that's that 452 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: was there's a one scuba knife picture here, and it's 453 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: got one towards the base of the blade near where 454 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: it means to hilt, and it looks like something for 455 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: cutting line. But I've also seen basically the same thing 456 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: on a scuba knife where there's a notch at the 457 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: tip near the tip of the blade for the same reason. Yeah, 458 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: same thing. It looks like it's something you hook around 459 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: a line or something and just like snag and just ripped, 460 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, just yeah, so sawing back and forth or 461 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: anything like that. Something's quick and down and dirty. Uh. 462 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: There's other knives that have notches in them too, Like, 463 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: for example, there's a traditional the famous Gurka knife that 464 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: you've seen. That's the kind of that's got the seventeen 465 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: angle bend in it. That the that the Gurka troops carried, 466 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, from Nepal. Now, that big old knife that's 467 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: got the bent blade. Yeah, those are scary little knives. Uh, 468 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: traditional Southern European dirks. Also a lot of them have notches. 469 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: I included a picture for you guys to look at here. 470 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: They do it too, I'm sure they do. Uh. So. 471 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: On the Monday after the murders, a reporter at the 472 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: Florence newspaper called the Nazi on which is what the nation. Uh. 473 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: He remembered the nineteen seventy four killings and noted that 474 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: there were similarities. And so when the police got winded this, 475 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: they didn't tell the police. They just printed in the newspaper. 476 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: You know, police can find out on their own right. 477 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: That's called working together. Uh huh. Yeah. They got off 478 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: the evidence from nineteen seventy four and they discovered the 479 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: shirt enough that same handgun had been used in both killings. Uh. 480 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: And since this indicated a serial killer was at work, well, 481 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: this really kicked the interest up quite a ways. Like 482 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: a notch or two, uh, not like a notch in 483 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: the blade, but you know, different not yeah, okay, yeah, 484 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: And and this is when the police started searching that 485 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: I started questioning the local Indians. Remember those of the 486 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: peeping Tom's. Yeah, and those were the names given to 487 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: them by the locals, the Indiani. That's not the name 488 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: that I gave him. These guys tended to meet and 489 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: they were kind of semi organized, so they would be 490 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: so weird. Yeah they would well they would club, yeah, 491 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: and then but they would exchange notes. And I think 492 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: one of the reasons it is just so you didn't 493 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: have two dozen guys showing up with the same spots 494 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: to spy on the same car, you know. Yeah, but 495 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: like that necessitates you meeting a bunch of like fellow 496 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: curves in the woods and being like, okay, dude, who's teenage? 497 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: Like what teenage car you taken tonight? You don't talk 498 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: about per club? Apparently somebody did. Yeah. Well if they hadn't, 499 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: this would have happened. Yeah, I can think of better 500 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: things to do with your time. And she's just a 501 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: little bit. But by talking to various Indians, they found 502 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: out that the guy who would have been hanging out 503 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: in that particular area that night was a guy named 504 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: Enzo Spiletti because they had their own areas. Yeah, well 505 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't there all the time. Yeah, they knew he 506 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: was like he was that he was in that area. 507 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: He was assigned that area that night sort of. Yeah. 508 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: And also Giovanni Giovanni's car was known to the voyeurs. 509 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: Also Giovanni was the guy that got murdered to the couple. Uh, 510 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: it was known as a quote good car. Yeah, I 511 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: mean there was lots of action, so they knew his car. Uh. 512 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: And so it seems likely Enzo Spiletti would have been 513 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: actually watching it when the murders took place. I probably not, 514 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: but you know, it does seem kind of like I 515 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: can see what the police wanted to talk to this guy. Say. 516 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: Spiletti was evasive when he was hauled in for questioning. 517 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: I think they grilled in for like six hours. Most 518 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: likely that might have been because he just didn't want 519 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: to admit his hobby was spying on people having sex 520 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: in their cars. It's just a little embarrassing as a 521 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: married man. Yeah. Well yeah he was married, yeah, yeah, 522 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: and he had kids. He told police first of all 523 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: that he'd been with another boy or the whole evening 524 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: was turned out not to be true. Uh, And then 525 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: he told the police he'd gotten home by midnight. But 526 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: then when they talked to his wife, she said that 527 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: he didn't get home till after two am. And so well, um, 528 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: she was just trying to get back at him, maybe 529 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: because she knew and she was like, you know what, No, 530 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: we're punishing you. Yeah, yeah, it could have been. Cops 531 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: decided he was holding back information because and I could 532 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: see what they might wonder about that, because you would 533 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: think he would have seen something if he's that's his 534 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: his whole thing is spying on these cars. Why didn't 535 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: you see somebody murdering these people? Maybe he was away 536 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: on a pea break. I was just saying, yeah, he 537 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: may not have been there during the time that it 538 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: took place, or he might not have been following the rule. 539 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: And you know, it was a dry spot, so we 540 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: went somewhere else hoping to see something and he left 541 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: too early. That's entirely possible. Or it might have been 542 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: that he was somewhere else and he came along and 543 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: saw the bodies and stuff, got the hell out and 544 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: got the hell out of there and didn't say anything, 545 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: which that wouldn't be unheard of, right. Anyway, he was 546 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: not charged with murder. He was charged initially with reticence, 547 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: which in Italy is considered kind of a form of 548 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: perjury when you're not willing to like tell the cops 549 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: everything they want to know. And then in July they decided, well, 550 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: maybe he's a killer after all, so they charged him 551 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: with murder. Yeah, and that's that's the way it works 552 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: in Italy. And I found out from researching this is 553 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: like not nothing. I don't want to sound like him 554 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: down any Italian folks. I love you guys. I'd love 555 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: to see your country, but it does sound like your 556 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: justice system was a little screwed up. Oh no, it is. 557 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: It's just all the systems I can tell you. Um, 558 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm currently in the process of pursuing my dual citizenship 559 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: I forgot about. And it turns out that if you 560 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: are willing to pay a ton of money, you just 561 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: get it. Takes it like they're literally it's I'm waiting. 562 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 1: I have to wait like three years before I can 563 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: even get an interview at the consulate in America. Right, 564 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: But if I if I were willing to give them 565 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: like a couple of thousand bucks, like I would literally 566 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: have my citizenship in like a month, but nope, I 567 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: can't afford that. So, I mean it's just is not 568 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: on the show bank account. It's true. Yeah, I mean, 569 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: it's even I mean it's it's even stuff like that. 570 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: It's all of it. Yeah, and this this kind of 571 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: stuff happened, and honestly, most people who live in Italy 572 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: will tell you the exact same thing. Oh yeah, no, 573 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: it's it's not steadily. There's a lot of countries where 574 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: it's just expected that you're going to bribe people. It's 575 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: like tipping here in America, you know, it's expected. So ends, yeah, yeah, back, 576 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: oh yeah, so back to Ends. Spiletti. Luckily for him, 577 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: the monster didn't win another seven years before he struck again, 578 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: because that would have that actually would have been a 579 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: bad break for him. Yeah. So on Friday October one, 580 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: so just several months after the murder stuff, Nobaldi and 581 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Susannah Combie, we're parked in the Bartolian net Fields that 582 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: I get that right, Bartolian Yeah, alright, okay, well that's 583 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: west of Florence. And their car was found the next morning. 584 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: The driver's side window had a bullet hole in it, 585 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: just like the previous murder. Passengers side door was open. 586 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: Susanna had been dragged about ten meters in the car 587 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: and mutilated like before you know what I'm talking about. 588 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: And they found the usual showcasing from a bread of 589 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: twenty two they matched. They also found a strange stone 590 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: about twenty meters from the murder side, which was shaped 591 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: like a truncated pyramid red herring. Uh, well, not even 592 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: a red herring. I don't, I don't think. I think 593 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: it was just randomly there, and I doubt that the 594 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: murderer even which now actually what it was was a doorstop. 595 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: And uh but apparently this this police where this prosecutor 596 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: who found it and didn't really know what it was. 597 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: There was a journalist who us there who wrote quite 598 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: a lot about this. His name is Mario Spetsy, and 599 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: he co wrote a book about this was Douglas Preston 600 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: called The Monster of Florence. Very good book, by the way, 601 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: the to read if you're more interested in this and 602 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: if you want to hear more about it. Uh. And 603 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: later on that little perimid caused trouble for none other 604 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: than Marios Betsy because it turned out he had a 605 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: doorstop in his house and it was japed sort of 606 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: kind of like this one. And later on, I mean 607 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: years later, and when the investigation really took a left 608 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: turn and started getting into strange accusations, crazy territory, seriously 609 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: crazy satanic death cult accusations, and all kinds of looney 610 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, not on the part of the Internet, but 611 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: on the part of the police and the prosecutors. Their 612 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: killer left behind a paperweight and desk. That's about. That's 613 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: about it. That about I mean yeah, because um yeah, 614 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: And it was only much later that the investigation became 615 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: as loony as it was. But why did it get looney? 616 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: Our next killings were in June two? So, Devin, you 617 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: pronounced their names? Um oh, Paulo, my Mari and uh 618 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: Antonella million, Mini, Medio Meani. Yeah, okay is how I 619 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: would say those? All right? That works, Yeah, alright, let's 620 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: government work. Yeah all right. So they pulled these these 621 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: two pulled their fiad, I believe it was. It's a 622 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: freaking fiod. I've never got to drive one of those cars. 623 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go buy one tomorrow. Yeah, uh yeah. They 624 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: were parked. They pulled off what was actually a fairly 625 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: busy road. They pulled up this short little dead end 626 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: road at the Edison Woods and parked for the usual stuff, right, 627 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: and Paulo violated the first rule of parking on the 628 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: creepy dead end lover's lane in serial killer territory, which 629 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: is that you always turn your car around a point 630 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: it towards the exit before you shut off the ignition. Right, Yeah, absolutely, 631 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: that's what I do. I think he probably had something 632 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: else on his mind besides that rule. Probably. Well, anyway, 633 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: here's how it here's how it all shook out. The 634 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: police reconstructed the scene. Uh, it looked like from what 635 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: they've seen, and it's from the evidence it they had 636 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: finished having sex Antonella had climbed into the back seat 637 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: to put her clothes on, and at that point the 638 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: monster was lurking nearby and apparently was not as stealthy 639 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: as he had been previously, because Paolo heard him or 640 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: saw him, and so he quickly started the car, jammed it, reversed, 641 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: and backed out of there as quick as he could. 642 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: The monster fire shot hit Paolo in the left shoulder, 643 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: but didn't completely incapacitated or anything. The car kept backing 644 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: up it hit the main road, but unfortunately Paolo did 645 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: not make the turn, and the car went across the 646 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: road and the rear wheels went into the ditch where 647 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: he was stuck. He put it and he put in 648 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: put in first gear or forward or whatever drive, but 649 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: was not able to get out of the ditch. Meantime, 650 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: the monster is advancing upon them, stands on the opposite 651 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: side of the road. They reconstructed when the suspenseful music 652 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: would play in the movie. Yeah, and I'm imagining things 653 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: inside that car were probably a little tense right about probably, Yeah, 654 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: he she He stood across the road and shot both 655 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: headlights out and walked across the road, pulled open the 656 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: driver's side door and shot each of them in the head. 657 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: He pulled Polo's body out of the car and threw 658 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: him to the ground. He got into the car and 659 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: tried to get it out of the ditch. And presumably 660 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: I think he did this because he wanted to transport 661 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: Antonella's body a little further away to a more private 662 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: spot so he could do some of his usual surgery. 663 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: If you know what I'm talking about. Trophy taken. Yeah, 664 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: but the car luckily for her, I guess was stuck. 665 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: It didn't really matter for her. I guess she was dead. 666 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, better for the 667 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: next can right, Yeah, he so he did leave. He 668 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: went up the hillside across the road and threw the 669 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,919 Speaker 1: car keys away. They were found about three feet away, 670 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: along with a bottle of some over the counter medicine 671 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: that was never apparently any use in tracing the killer. 672 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: What was the medicine for. I'm not sure, Norris of 673 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: tam I didn't really like, like check it too closely 674 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: since then the police were never were actually making anything 675 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 1: of it. And I had to say, by the yeah, 676 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: that's true. I mean it could have been check chucked 677 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,479 Speaker 1: out there by anybody. Yeah, I mean I remember growing 678 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: up at people had their trash bags in the back 679 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: of their truck open and things flew out. So that's 680 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: you know, stuffings up on the side of the road 681 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: for a myriad number of reasons. Oh yeah, definitely. Um. 682 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: When the car was found, Paula was still alive. He 683 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: was he was unconscious, but he was when he was 684 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: taken to the hospital. He died later at the hospital, 685 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: but police took the opportunity to plant some disinformation in 686 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: the newspapers with the cooperation of the local journalists. They 687 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: said that, and the reporters knew it was alive, but 688 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: they knew why. Uh. They said that Polo had lived 689 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: long enough to give them some information. And this might 690 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: just have paid off for the police. We'll see, didn't 691 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: get them actually the real killer. In the end, it 692 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: did maybe get them a little action. But anyway, we'll 693 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: talk about that later. But news of the murders hit 694 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: the papers two days later on June twenty one, and 695 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: that same day police down the Tuscan Coast always Away 696 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: found a car that had been hidden in the woods 697 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: covered with brush. Uh. They didn't get around and running 698 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: the plates for a couple of weeks. So, and of 699 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: course the public was going nuts. Tons of tips were 700 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: flowing into the police via the phone and via mail, 701 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: lots of anonymous tips. Uh. And yeah, very few of 702 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: them are worth anything. But then one day a letter 703 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: arrived with an old newspaper clipping and it I a 704 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: should say an envelope arrived. It wasn't a letter, Uh, 705 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: it was about a nine double murder, which was you 706 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: guessed at the murder of Antonio and Barbara somebody had 707 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: written on the clipping you should take another look at 708 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: this crime except for an Italian. Yeah, yeah, not ye, 709 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: not New Liaisy, but yeah Italiano, um Italiano. I'm sorry, 710 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: I just gotta get into the whole swing of the Italian. 711 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: You know, we've already been banned in China. Don't get 712 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: a banned in Italy. I like my process to not 713 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: take any longer than that. Yeah, you get back to 714 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: the back of the line. And I'm sorry about that. Uh. 715 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: This is one of the most one of the more 716 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: intriguing little sub mysteries in the story, which was who 717 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: set this clipping in? Ye, I'd really kind of like 718 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: to know. They never did find out. So was it 719 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: the monster to send it in? Seems unlikely unless he 720 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: wanted to tease the cops a little bit. But was it? 721 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: Was it somebody who knew the monster but didn't feel 722 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: like he could really read him out directly, so he 723 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: sent in some hints to the cops. Maybe there wasn't 724 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: just some alert citizen. Was the little historical knowledge, which 725 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: is entirely possible. I could sort of see that, actually 726 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: there are people who really stay up on this like us. Yeah, well, 727 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: I mean the other other option is somebody who either 728 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: was related to Stefano or or close to him or 729 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: something who always thought he's innocent and was trying to 730 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: advocate for him and saw the opportunity to say, like, 731 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: these are looking kind of similar, like let's prove his 732 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: innocence years on, and let's still try. Yeah, maybe exonerate 733 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: his record or anything like that, because he was out 734 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: of out of jail by then. Yeah he was. Yeah, 735 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: he was a little in his heap. Frankly, maybe it 736 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: was him. Yeah, maybe it was Stefano. Yeah, that's the 737 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: newspaper clipping in. I don't know. Stefano was not that smart. Maybe, 738 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: how I guess that's true. Yeah, but I said, I 739 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: need our listeners to know that Joe just looks like 740 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: genuinely shocked. I would even suggest that Stefano might have 741 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: sent this thing. Come on, you got to be kidding. 742 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: Maybe with his son Natalie. No, how old would he 743 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: have been, then it would have been about it was 744 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: he was six, and then it was fifteen years later. Yeah, yeah, 745 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: so it could have been. Yeah, it could Yeah, it 746 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: could have been. Anyway, that's a different mystery for a 747 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: different times. Yeah, totally another one that's probably not going 748 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: to get solved. But but police did go back and 749 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: they looked at the files and they found that this 750 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: is amazing, by the way, that the evidence had not 751 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: been lost in this place. How does that actually surprising? 752 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: It is? Yeah, and I'm not putting out the Italians. 753 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: This happens all of the Oh yeah it does. Yeah, 754 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: but they still have some shells from the gun that 755 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: they collected. By the way, the monster never troubled to 756 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 1: pick up any of the shell casings, of course not yeah, 757 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: of course not. Uh, And so they still had those shells. 758 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: They compared it to the more recent killings and by 759 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: the way, perfect match, same gun. So it appears that 760 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: that first killing might have been the first monster killing. 761 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a it's a long run. Yeah, it is 762 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: a long way to seventy four. That's six years, and 763 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: then then then what's seven more years. Although I guess 764 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: there's some kind of I will probably talk about this 765 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: in theories, but there's some there's escalation that is happening. 766 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: I mean, the first bodies weren't mutilated at all or 767 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: anything like that. They were just shot. Yeah, it could 768 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: have been or it could have been just diferen emos, 769 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: or he could have left town been in jail for 770 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: a while, and there's all kinds of yeah, yeah, I 771 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: mean this the same set of style of murder could 772 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: have been happening I don't know in India at the time, 773 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: and that wouldn't that didn't get tracked totally. I mean, yeah, 774 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: I don't know why I picked out India, but I did. Yeah, 775 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: And they've had their sericular is too, so yeah, they 776 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: all everybody does. But of course Stefano Meda could not, Uh, 777 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: he could not have committed those nineteen seventy four murders 778 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 1: since he was in prison. Um and then after prison 779 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: he went to a halfway house run by Catholic priests, 780 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: and he was still there in nineteen eighty two. By 781 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: this point he was old. He was physically very weak, 782 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: not a big guy to begin with, and not in 783 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: great shape and mentally not with it at all. Uh, 784 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 1: And the police got really no useful information from him. 785 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: So did the monster commit the nineteen sixty eight murders. Well, 786 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: that's hard to say. I mean, it's it's hard to 787 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: say if he was even there. He might have been 788 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,919 Speaker 1: there or maybe not. Apparently they were like a number 789 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: of people there. It was not according to the according 790 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: to the reigning theories out there, the reigning theory about 791 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen six crime, he said, it was actually a 792 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: clan killing that involved members of the Mainland clan, the 793 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: Medle clan, and and then then the Vinci clan. Uh. 794 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: And that the theory is at Barbara he had Yeah, 795 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: lovedn't she Okay, I sudden thought that there was an 796 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: inventor involved. Yeah, Well, the theory is that Barbara is 797 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: going to call us on that. Keep going McDonald's hope. Yeah, 798 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: Barbara had brought this honor on the Meila clan with 799 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: their behavior, and of course Salvatare and Francesco we're probably 800 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: feeling a little about her, that Barbara had ditched him 801 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: for Antonio, right. Uh. And also there was some stolen 802 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: money involved, which was probably the straw that broke the 803 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: camels back. But I'm not going to go into that 804 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: because the story is already complicated enough. But even if 805 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: even if it was a clan killing in night is, 806 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: Stefano should have known something and piracy was there. He 807 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: was placed at the scene and convicted, and so the 808 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: problem was, you know, the police couldn't get anything out 809 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: of reporters. We're going Brasier trying to get trying to 810 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: get into the halfway house to talk to him. With 811 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: the priests around the place, wouldn't let them in. And 812 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: then and then Mario Spezzy, who I've mentioned here before 813 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:16,320 Speaker 1: the report trupid reporter uh fates being on a documentary crewman. Essentially, 814 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: they said that they wanted to do a documentary about 815 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,720 Speaker 1: these priests and their good works, you know and stuff, 816 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: and so they totally lied and get in there and 817 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: and and just happened to like interview Stefano and they 818 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,720 Speaker 1: and they started talking a little bit about the murders, 819 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: and he was kind of vague and evasive about the 820 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: whole thing. It didn't really say much useful except for 821 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: one thing. He said, quote, they need to figure out 822 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: where that pistol is, otherwise there will be more murders, 823 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: they will continue to kill unquote so almost words there. Yeah, 824 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: so he seemed to know something, huh yeah. So when 825 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: he said they need to figure out where the pistol is, 826 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they meant the police, or if 827 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 1: he was talking about somebody else, or if he was 828 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: old and like messing up his words. Oh, there's that too, 829 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: I suppose. Yeah, but yeah, he seemed to know all 830 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: about the pistol. He seemed to know that there were 831 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: people out there who murder on their minds. I guess 832 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: because he know that they were going they were going 833 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: to continue to murder. The other thing I will just 834 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: briefly mentioned. And I guess they don't really know enough 835 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: Italian to really know this, But in English, there is 836 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: such a thing as a singular they, and it's when 837 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: you don't know what that person's gender is, that's a they, right, 838 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: And so it's possible that that's how he was using it, 839 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: although again I don't know, I don't know Italian enough 840 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: to know if that is something that exists in Italian 841 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: or not, but that it's possible that he was just saying, 842 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 1: like that person, yeah, I have no identity for will 843 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: continue to Yeah, I mean they is like you know, 844 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: it can mean a lot of things in English too, 845 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: so I assume we can do the same in Italian. 846 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: So they can mean the authorities, or can mean society 847 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: in general, or can mean a certain group of people 848 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, we don't know. But and as far 849 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: as but but as far as I'm saying that they 850 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,959 Speaker 1: will continue to kill same confusion. They're it's like, wow, 851 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: does you know something? Is it more than one person? 852 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: Maybe because you know something like we don't know the 853 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: kinda Binieri that's like the what the like the National Police, 854 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: I think they're kind of military called paramilitary in Italy. 855 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: They opened up the nineteen caseum and that began a 856 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: phase of the investigation that came to be called the 857 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: Sardinian trail because this whole nineteen sixty eight thing, everybody 858 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: involved was Sardinian. And by the way, there, I don't 859 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,800 Speaker 1: know if I mentioned that there was a big, a 860 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: big accidents of people from Sardinia to Italy in the 861 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. Well, it's an island. I mean, it's it's 862 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: an island off the coast of Italy. That yeah, it's 863 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: like south of Corsica and west of Italy, right. But 864 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: I mean if they're and again I had research on this, 865 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: but if there were some sort of blight or any 866 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, hard times from the island, that what you 867 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: you get? Yeah, and so somewhere else, uh, well, back 868 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: to our investigation. The police looked at and Notalina, Notatalino's statements. 869 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: Remember he was a kid. The six year old, and 870 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: he had said, of course said his father was president 871 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: of crime. He also said he saw Salvatore there, changed 872 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: that to Francesco, and he also said something about an 873 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: uncle Piero, which was assumed to be his uncle, Piero Muccarini, 874 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: and I said, saw the shadow of somebody else. And 875 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: then later on the course she decided he hadn't seen anything, 876 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: couldn't remember anything. Uh. And then Stefanos, of course his 877 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: statements to the police also was Salvatory and Francesco there, 878 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: which of course he retracted. So the police it seemed 879 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: to them there were four accomplices there. I mean actually 880 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 1: besides Stefano, there were the Vincy brothers, and then Piero 881 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: and then the shadow. They weren't sure about that person, uh, 882 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: their their first focus. And by the way, the shadow, eventually, 883 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: as far as the police was were concerned, did turn 884 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: out to be Stefano's brother, Giovanni Medde. But they focused 885 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: on Francesco first because he was the one who had 886 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: the big criminal record um. And they were able to 887 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: place him here in the nineteen seventy four killings because 888 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: he was in the area apparently taking care of some 889 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,360 Speaker 1: business with his favorite nephew, Antonio Vinci. Uh. And then 890 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: during the most recent killings, Francesco was actually visiting Antonio 891 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: at his home, which is only about six kilometers from 892 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: the murder scene. And so that looks suspicious to the police. 893 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: And of course, like I said, he was criminal, like 894 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: a career criminal. And remember I said that a car 895 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: had been found on the June one, Yeah, in the woods. 896 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, by the Tescan police. Well, they finally ran 897 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: the plates and it turned out the Carblong didn't not 898 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: other than Francesco. Uh. Yeah. And that was the same 899 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,280 Speaker 1: day that the false reports were printed in the papers 900 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: saying that Paolo had lived long enough to give a 901 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: statement to the police. Yeah. So did the news spook Francesco. 902 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: And certainly the police were kind of like, you know, 903 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: intrigued by this. Uh. They hauled him in and his 904 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: he didn't have any really good stories to account for 905 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: his whereabouts on the day of the murder, and he 906 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: really had no good ex planation as to white hid 907 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: in the car in the woods, And so he was 908 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: arrested in the August two and set off to jail. 909 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: He spent a little time in jail, uh, and the 910 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: monster for his part, did not strike for well over 911 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: a year. But then September, German tourists were camping in 912 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: their Volkswagen bus. Uh. That's was like, this was like 913 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: just outside Florence to the south, and there were two guys, 914 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 1: but one of them was small and had long blonde hair, 915 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: and so from a distance in the dark, maybe possibly 916 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: the the monster could have mistaken him for a woman 917 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: and thought that they were a couple, had a sexual couple. Yeah, exactly, 918 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: it's two men. Yeah, it was two men. Thought they 919 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: were a man and a woman. Anyway, they were shot 920 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: to death and the small the small guy did not 921 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: get his private parts cut out, presumably because that was 922 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: not what the monster was expecting. Yeah. I think probably 923 00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: got a nasty little shock and when he pulled down 924 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: his pants and found out that, we see the usual 925 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: what he was expecting, wasn't there long kind of serving right, Actually, 926 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: the pattern of the bullet hole suggested that the killer 927 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,879 Speaker 1: was tall. And I don't know, you guys, remember the old, old, 928 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,319 Speaker 1: old looks like the extra little windows on the top 929 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: of the little skinny windows. Yeah, and you can if 930 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: you if you google v W bus, you'll find those. 931 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: You'll find pictures of that, but the initial bullet holes 932 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: apparently were through There were a couple of them through 933 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,360 Speaker 1: those windows, firing downward into the bus. So from that 934 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 1: you can you can presume that the killer was fairly 935 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 1: tall to be able to stand up on his tiptoes, 936 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: looked down inside, see the two guys in there, and 937 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: then fire down in there. Uh the monster. By the way, 938 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,399 Speaker 1: I always shot the man first, if that hasn't already 939 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: been clear, which is kind of a good tactic because 940 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: if somebody in the car is going to have a 941 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,839 Speaker 1: weapon like a knife or a gun, it's probably gonna 942 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 1: be the guy or to be able to overpower you. Yeah, exactly, 943 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: so you want to shoot the guy first. So uh 944 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: so it appears that it appears at the larger the 945 00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: two was presumed to be the man in the relationship. 946 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,279 Speaker 1: He was shot first. But yeah, the larger I didn't 947 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: mention their names. Larger the two was was was Wilhelm 948 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: Meyer and then Swan was. I don't know if it's 949 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: apronounced Ui, it's u w E, So we'll call it you. 950 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: You're the one who knows German. Yeah, but you know, 951 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,879 Speaker 1: it's been a long time and I'm rusty. That's why 952 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: we don't let you go out in the rain. Yeah 953 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,320 Speaker 1: it appears, oh yeah, give me my w D forty. 954 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: But it appears the monster shot Willehelm down through the 955 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: glass and then you skidaddled into the rear of the 956 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: van and scrunched himself into a corner as far as 957 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: he could, probably thinking that, you know, hoping that you know, 958 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: whoever it was would didn't see him, it would go away. 959 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: But unfortunately for him, the monster was aware of what 960 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,399 Speaker 1: and where he was, and so he just walked around 961 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: the vantaged, shot through the side of the van and 962 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: killed him. Then he walked back around and slid open 963 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: the side door, and that's when he apparently got his 964 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 1: nasty little surprise because he left without He left without 965 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: taking himself a prize or anything. And now, since the 966 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: prime suspect, Francesco was in jail, this could kind of 967 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,240 Speaker 1: put a damper on the cave against him being the monster, 968 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: right yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, I kind of did 969 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,799 Speaker 1: a little bit. But police didn't let him go. They 970 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: noted that the killer did appeal appear to be a 971 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: tall guy, and Francesco, frankly was a not terribly tall 972 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 1: guy or it could have been a short guy who 973 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: took a footstool with him when he went on his 974 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: murder spreeze, but probably a tall guy. Yeah, And the 975 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 1: police also noted that Francesco's favorite nephew, Antonio Vinci, was 976 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 1: also a tall guy, so they theorized that Antonio had 977 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: staged this killing just to exonerate his uncle, which was 978 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,319 Speaker 1: nice of him. I mean, that's seriously and that's above 979 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 1: and beyond in my opinion. Yeah, and who knows, maybe 980 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 1: actually targeted this couple, these two guys, and it's thought 981 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: that they were a gay couple because they found some 982 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: gay literature there. But maybe he deliberately targeted these two 983 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: because that would that would mean he wouldn't he wouldn't 984 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 1: have to do the surgery, which maybe he didn't really 985 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: wasn't on a key, Yeah, you know, if he wasn't 986 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: actually the killer. But Antonio was arrested about a week 987 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 1: later for illegal possession of firearms, and it turns out 988 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: the firearms in question were it's hard to say if 989 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: they were actually his or if the police just kind 990 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,799 Speaker 1: of planted them somewhere because they weren't even in his house, 991 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 1: and so, you know, there was no actual evidence. He 992 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: actually they it went to trial, he represented himself. He 993 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,399 Speaker 1: didn't even bother him. Okay, now he got off, Yeah 994 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,480 Speaker 1: he got he got off. He just he just said, hey, look, 995 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't even in my house. There's no 996 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: connection at all, no evidence, and by the way, they 997 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 1: were probably planted. And so that was enough. He got off. 998 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,319 Speaker 1: But Francesco, for his part, stayed in jail. And then 999 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 1: the examining magistrate he's kind of the guy that like 1000 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: a judge who supervises the prosecution and the police and everything, 1001 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: he decided he want to take a crack at Stefano himself. Uh, 1002 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: and so when he talked to Stefano, he he still 1003 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:56,239 Speaker 1: wouldn't neiplicate Salvatore and Francesco. But Rotella, the judge, said 1004 00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,719 Speaker 1: that Stefano did confess that his brother Giovanni and his 1005 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: there in law Piero were present at the scene. So 1006 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: but maybe Pierre was the uncle Piero that Natolino said 1007 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: that he saw, and then maybe Giovani was the shadow 1008 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: that he saw that night, And so I guess what 1009 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,719 Speaker 1: they were. Those guys got arrested too. They were charged 1010 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,840 Speaker 1: with monsterism. Yeah, how many arrests were their total. There's 1011 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: so many people arrested for I lost track too, That's 1012 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,600 Speaker 1: why I asked. Yeah, there were quite a few people 1013 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,240 Speaker 1: got arrested. Actually, so there were a number of different 1014 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: A lot of different people got convicted in jail and 1015 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,879 Speaker 1: it happened and didn't let get let go right away. Yeah, 1016 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: some of them did, but some of them that they anywhere. Well, 1017 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: even though the police had a triumphed and they had 1018 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,439 Speaker 1: arrested the three most likely suspects in the whole thing, well, 1019 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 1: unfortunately the killer struck again. The next murder was July. 1020 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:57,760 Speaker 1: Claudio Stefanacci, and I think that sounds per Pierrontini murdered 1021 00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,600 Speaker 1: in the usual way of Claudio is still in the car, 1022 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,240 Speaker 1: had dragged out of the car a few dozen meters away, 1023 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 1: a mutilated and this time he escalated again. He not 1024 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: only took out her public area, he tore off her 1025 00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 1: left breast. Yeah, I didn't cut it off. Apparently it's 1026 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 1: pretty pretty hard, Like I literally physically don't understand that. 1027 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 1: It seems like it would be really hard to do. 1028 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe partially cut in part you got to 1029 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,839 Speaker 1: start an incision. Yeah, he must have done at least 1030 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of cutting. But oh yes, it's gross. 1031 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: But hopefully she was dead by the time that happened, right, yeah, 1032 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,880 Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. Well, so anyway, there's there's this murder, 1033 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: horrible murder, and the three favorite suspects are all in prison. 1034 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,839 Speaker 1: Um then they were all eventually released, although in uh 1035 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,719 Speaker 1: Francesco's case it didn't Actually he didn't get released until 1036 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,959 Speaker 1: November that year. So they kept him around for months 1037 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,759 Speaker 1: because the police felt that even though obviously this meant 1038 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,320 Speaker 1: he wasn't guilty, they were pretty sure he knew who was, 1039 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: so they felt like they just hang on to him 1040 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: and keep the pressure on for a while. Yeah, he 1041 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 1: never cracked apparently. And I don't want to sound like 1042 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm stereotyping people, but from what I've heard about here, 1043 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: he comes from the mountain, the inner mountains of Sardinia, 1044 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,280 Speaker 1: where it's kind of a very traditional kind of society 1045 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: and there's clans and and the code of Omerta and 1046 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: all that, you know, just like with the Sicilians and stuff, 1047 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,840 Speaker 1: and so these are not the kind of guys that 1048 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,920 Speaker 1: even if they know who it is, they're not going 1049 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: to tell the police. Now that's just yeah, and if 1050 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:33,840 Speaker 1: you're one of our Sardinian listeners and I've got it 1051 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 1: all wrong, police, send us an email. But Francesco was 1052 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: eventually released and head threw a little his friends to 1053 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 1: a little party for him. That was November, and Mario Spetcy, 1054 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,239 Speaker 1: the journalist, attended his little party and got a little 1055 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: a little alone time with him and said and said, so, 1056 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,560 Speaker 1: what do you think the monster is really like? Then? 1057 00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: What's your theory? And Francesco said a few things, but 1058 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: the last thing he said was that the monster was 1059 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,759 Speaker 1: quote one who wants upon a time experienced a very 1060 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,680 Speaker 1: very great disappointment. I mean, and he didn't say exactly 1061 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,840 Speaker 1: what that man, that's just what he said. It so vague. 1062 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 1: Well it's vague, but at the same time it's kind 1063 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,399 Speaker 1: of specific. I guess I don't know that that's necessarily true. 1064 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: I think he probably had a lot of time to 1065 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: think about what kind of guy could be doing this? Right, 1066 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 1: And as we are, we three are wont to do. 1067 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: We just try to like dig into the psychology of somebody. 1068 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: And I think we would all agree that like whoever 1069 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: was doing these things suffered some kind of very big 1070 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 1: trauma or something, or some self perceived trauma, just had 1071 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: something in and that was just missing on it. Something 1072 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: was going on, some kind of great disappointment, if you will, 1073 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 1: I would agree with you. Yeah, probably, or or it 1074 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,719 Speaker 1: could mean that he knew exactly who it was, why 1075 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: he was doing it. I don't know, but you can 1076 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: you can sort of understand that why the police might 1077 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,719 Speaker 1: think that these guys really kind of knew what was 1078 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: going on and just weren't saying when they go around 1079 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: saying stuff like this. Alright. So, uh so there were 1080 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,439 Speaker 1: three out of four suspects in the nineteen six killing, 1081 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,760 Speaker 1: they were eliminated, so that leaves one was his Salvatore Vinci. 1082 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,920 Speaker 1: And then when police started looking into him, they discovered 1083 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,400 Speaker 1: that he actually had some perverse sexual appetites, which of 1084 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,800 Speaker 1: course doesn't make him a serial killer, but apparently he 1085 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,800 Speaker 1: was promiscuous like groups sex, would do it with anybody, 1086 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,399 Speaker 1: a man and woman, a chihuahua, whatever, you know. Yeah, 1087 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,080 Speaker 1: he and uh he's also suspected of murdering his wife 1088 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,800 Speaker 1: in Sardinia back in nineteen sixty one. Uh And so 1089 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,640 Speaker 1: when they were investigating Salvatory, and by the way, they 1090 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 1: had a bunch of surveillance too, while they were doing this, 1091 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,720 Speaker 1: Monster Boy struck again one last time, which was Saturday, 1092 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,040 Speaker 1: September seven, ninety five. This send the victims were a 1093 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,239 Speaker 1: couple of French tourists who were camping. Uh and uh, 1094 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,120 Speaker 1: this is a little bit different. Rent. They weren't in 1095 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: the car. They were in a tent. Apparently they were 1096 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,680 Speaker 1: naked and it just had sex. And then the killer 1097 00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: approach crashed down in front of the tent, made a 1098 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,720 Speaker 1: noise by slitting part of their tent with his knife, 1099 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 1: and then when they popped out of the tent, un 1100 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,200 Speaker 1: zipped the fly and came popping out. He was crouching 1101 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,600 Speaker 1: down in front of the tent. He opened fire on them, 1102 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: killed the woman and immediately, Yeah, Nadine and then her 1103 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: her boyfriend Jean. He was hit four times, but they 1104 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,720 Speaker 1: were all superficial. He got like hit and like the 1105 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: like the wrists and the elbow and saying all painful 1106 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:39,000 Speaker 1: wounds and everything, but nothing nothing, nothing, not debilitating. Uh. 1107 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: And so it looked like from the physical scene that 1108 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: Jean bolted from the tent and sprinted it out into 1109 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: the woods. And it looks like he probably knocked the 1110 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 1: knocked the killer down. The killer was probably crouching again 1111 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,840 Speaker 1: and he just got caught by surprised, got knocked over, 1112 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 1: but you know, picked himself up when running after John 1113 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: and stabbed him in the back and then stabbed him 1114 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,440 Speaker 1: a few more times in the abdomen and then cut 1115 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 1: his stroke. Then he goes back to the tent, does 1116 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,920 Speaker 1: the usual mutilations of Nadine as she shot her as well, 1117 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: and she was yeah, she was already dead. But he 1118 00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,920 Speaker 1: goes back and then and again, this time the PBC 1119 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,400 Speaker 1: area and the left breast again, and then later be 1120 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 1: abled a part of that breast to the state prosecutor. Yeah, 1121 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,640 Speaker 1: along with a note. Yeah, apparently this scared the crap 1122 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,000 Speaker 1: out of her, and so she resigned this a shock. 1123 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, if you guys ever want me 1124 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,720 Speaker 1: to stop doing the podcast, you can do something much 1125 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,680 Speaker 1: less terrified. Yeah, it wouldn't take. It wouldn't take. That 1126 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't take much for me. The really Yeah, yeah, just 1127 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: a mild threat and I'm done. Yeah. At this by 1128 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: this point in time, police really turned up the heat. 1129 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: The offerat reward of about half a billion lira, which 1130 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,720 Speaker 1: is about five bucks. Um, Yeah, that's not true, and 1131 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,200 Speaker 1: they started putting decoys and cars in the hills, and 1132 00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,240 Speaker 1: the joke was that they were more police parents of 1133 00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,720 Speaker 1: policemen in cars, and then the hills around Florence and 1134 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: they were actually the lovers and uh but it was 1135 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 1: was this the same style as you always see those 1136 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,760 Speaker 1: It was the eighties and nineties TV show where the 1137 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,080 Speaker 1: gruff cop is dressed up as the prostitute walking down 1138 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,360 Speaker 1: the street hoping the bad guy will will try and 1139 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,120 Speaker 1: take her out so that they can get your rest. 1140 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: Is it this level of absurdity when it's uh, there 1141 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: was two men cops, one dressed up to look like 1142 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 1: a girl. That really stupid. There was a little wig 1143 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,760 Speaker 1: wearing yeah, because I mean they're trying as much as 1144 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 1: possible to get police women out there as decuse. But 1145 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 1: apparently there was a bit of a shortage of them, 1146 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,400 Speaker 1: and so some guys had to shave off their mustaches 1147 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,960 Speaker 1: and put on wigs and uh. Yeah, and but unfortunately 1148 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,040 Speaker 1: for them, uh you know, they never had this was 1149 00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:46,960 Speaker 1: that was his last murder. It might have been that 1150 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 1: he just decided, for whatever reason, it was time to 1151 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 1: back off. Maybe when of the hills are all full 1152 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 1: of cops in cars, it's a good time to retire 1153 00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,520 Speaker 1: or maybe move on somewhere else, because it really was 1154 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,960 Speaker 1: his last killing. Uh. And the meantime, the police investigate 1155 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,720 Speaker 1: towards sort of went reached the intersection, and some of 1156 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,400 Speaker 1: them went one way, some of them one another. Uh. 1157 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,480 Speaker 1: Some of them still like to start eating in connection, 1158 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: and some of them decided that that whole thing was 1159 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: all played out and they should look at other possibilities. 1160 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: Mario Rotella was still fixated on Salvatory Vinci and was 1161 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,560 Speaker 1: still working on building a case against him. At the 1162 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 1: same time, the police in September eighty five got an 1163 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,040 Speaker 1: anonymous letter accusing a farmer who was pih Ro Pacciani 1164 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,800 Speaker 1: of being of being the monster. And Pacciani, by the way, 1165 01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,600 Speaker 1: was was not a model citizen. I mean, I don't 1166 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:37,240 Speaker 1: think he did it, but he eventually was tried for 1167 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 1: the crime. The police looked into his background. He had 1168 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,680 Speaker 1: actually killed a young couple in their car in n 1169 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,480 Speaker 1: It was it been supposedly his girlfriend at the time, 1170 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,360 Speaker 1: and she was having sex with some traveling salesman or something. Yeah. 1171 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Essentially he bushed so he bush whacked them and took 1172 01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,520 Speaker 1: a rock and bashed the guy's head in with it 1173 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,400 Speaker 1: and then stabbed him to death and then apparently raped 1174 01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,960 Speaker 1: his girlfriend in the in the grass next to the corpse, 1175 01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, just to let's heart, his dominance, her ownership 1176 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,200 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, yeah, a nice guy. But rumor also 1177 01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,520 Speaker 1: had it that he was a peeping tom, a porn freak, 1178 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,040 Speaker 1: a wife beater, and then he sexually abused his daughters. 1179 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,440 Speaker 1: Apparently all that stuff was true. Like I said, he 1180 01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 1: was not a model citizen. So yeah, yeah, I think 1181 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,160 Speaker 1: eventually we need to talk more about this guy because 1182 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:29,160 Speaker 1: a little bit. But well, back to Salvatory though, uh meantime, 1183 01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,760 Speaker 1: Mario Rotella. The magistrates finally formally accused SALVATORI of being 1184 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,240 Speaker 1: the monster. Uh, he couldn't actually build a case against him, 1185 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,520 Speaker 1: so he decided instead to charge him with murdering his 1186 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: wife back in nineteen sixty one, back in Sardinia. And 1187 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,360 Speaker 1: I've heard the details of this case, and it was 1188 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:51,520 Speaker 1: really highly questionable. She supposedly committed suicide, but it looks 1189 01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:53,440 Speaker 1: sure as hell, looks to me like he murdered her, 1190 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: and he had he had motive. She was screwing around 1191 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: on him, so you know, honor and all that stuff, 1192 01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 1: but he a motive in his mind in his mind. Yeah, 1193 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,200 Speaker 1: or and even for his pillow villagers off in the 1194 01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:09,160 Speaker 1: hills of Sardinia, that was probably justifiable and enough to 1195 01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,200 Speaker 1: make them, you know, look the other way when it happened. 1196 01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,560 Speaker 1: But Salvatore was charged with murder put on trial, and 1197 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 1: that was in eight so he spent early nine six 1198 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,640 Speaker 1: eight eight in jail, and then prior to that he 1199 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,480 Speaker 1: was under surveillance. So I'm not sure if he's good 1200 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 1: for the murder or not. But anyway, after the trial 1201 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,280 Speaker 1: he got off and he left and immediately went back 1202 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,080 Speaker 1: to Sardinia and went up into the mountains and disappeared. 1203 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,240 Speaker 1: He has never been heard from again. So much for Salvatore. Uh. 1204 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 1: But Pietro Pacciani did not go away, and a different 1205 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,960 Speaker 1: set of prosecutors have tried to build a case against him, 1206 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: and of course there there was for one thing they 1207 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,240 Speaker 1: looked at. They did a search of his house. They 1208 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,360 Speaker 1: found a painting that was extremely disturbing. It was a 1209 01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,240 Speaker 1: really weird and I've not seen the painting, but I've 1210 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,760 Speaker 1: heard it described have been great detail, and it does 1211 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,200 Speaker 1: sound a little bit creepy, but it was signed, It 1212 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,320 Speaker 1: was signed by him and had a little title like 1213 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: a science fiction dream or something like that. And and 1214 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,720 Speaker 1: it also one of the most damnit things about it 1215 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: has had seven crosses that we're in the painting that 1216 01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,680 Speaker 1: we're planted in the grass in the painting with the 1217 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:22,880 Speaker 1: prosecutors thought might be significant because that's seven seven crimes 1218 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,440 Speaker 1: committed by the monster. But if it was him, that 1219 01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: number is not right because he killed in fifty one 1220 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 1: and if he was also responsible for the early six 1221 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: or the sixty killings, it should have been nine crosses, 1222 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,760 Speaker 1: should have been eight. I guess eight or nine if 1223 01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,680 Speaker 1: there's the also killing because he's the guy who, Yeah, 1224 01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,680 Speaker 1: he's the one who in fifty one killed the other guy. 1225 01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:48,680 Speaker 1: So like the number doesn't work. Did he kill his 1226 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: girlfriend or his ex girlfriend? Now, he did not kill her, 1227 01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,400 Speaker 1: And that's why that that particular crime didn't really fit 1228 01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,480 Speaker 1: the d m O the well. I mean, one can 1229 01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,160 Speaker 1: certainly see how that would escalate. I mean, if that 1230 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,280 Speaker 1: was the trigger point, right, that would escalate into him 1231 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,280 Speaker 1: doing what he wanted to do to this woman many 1232 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,440 Speaker 1: many times over to other women. You know, like I 1233 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,120 Speaker 1: can under I can see that that escalation there. I 1234 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,480 Speaker 1: can see that argument. But knowing what I know about 1235 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 1: this guy. I don't think he's he's the Monster's not 1236 01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:21,640 Speaker 1: our best suspect. I don't think but he But the 1237 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,680 Speaker 1: prosecutors were actually liking him quite a lot. But the 1238 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,840 Speaker 1: painting that the painting they leaving aside the cross thing. 1239 01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,600 Speaker 1: As far as as far as the prosecutors were concerned, 1240 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,320 Speaker 1: they felt the monster committed seven crimes because they weren't 1241 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,480 Speaker 1: counting the sixty eight shootings. They don't think um. And 1242 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,360 Speaker 1: although they did find trying to find a really tendentious, 1243 01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,080 Speaker 1: I think way to link him to the sixty eight shootings, 1244 01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,880 Speaker 1: just so they could find an explanation as to how 1245 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,320 Speaker 1: he had gotten his hands on this gun which was 1246 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: used in sixty eight, because there was no connection between 1247 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,320 Speaker 1: the Vinci's or the Malays or anybody so in him. 1248 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,960 Speaker 1: So you know, that was a kind of tricky, kind 1249 01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 1: of a little trick on their part. Uh. The whole 1250 01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,960 Speaker 1: thing was actually the whole prosecution was of Pacciani, even 1251 01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,080 Speaker 1: though the guy was a jerk. It was ludicrous. They 1252 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,720 Speaker 1: took the painting to a psychologist like and and showed 1253 01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: it to him, and the psychologist came back with an 1254 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,880 Speaker 1: opinion that, well, yeah, you know, it's not inconsistent with 1255 01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 1: being painted by a serial killer, I guess. And uh, 1256 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,440 Speaker 1: And it turned out that actually Paciani had had plagiarized 1257 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,280 Speaker 1: a little bit. Actually was not his painting at all. 1258 01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,320 Speaker 1: He just he had just like signed his name on it, 1259 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,400 Speaker 1: but it was actually painted by some Chilean artists. And 1260 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:42,280 Speaker 1: uh and uh, he's the wrong height, Yeah, yeah, he's 1261 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,120 Speaker 1: he's the wrong eye. He's five foot three, I should 1262 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,160 Speaker 1: say it was. I don't think he's still alive now. 1263 01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:50,520 Speaker 1: He was in poor health, he'd had a heart attack, 1264 01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,640 Speaker 1: he had a pasima. Not the kind of guy to 1265 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,919 Speaker 1: be running around in the woods chasing somebody with a knife. Well, yeah, 1266 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,360 Speaker 1: that's it. John the French guy who was killed in 1267 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 1: who bolted from the end. He was twenty five years 1268 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: old and he was an amateur track star. He specialized, 1269 01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,000 Speaker 1: specialized in the hundred beaters sprint, you know, and so 1270 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,920 Speaker 1: quirk off the blocks, cook off the blocks and fast, 1271 01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure and so that, you know, Pacciani was was 1272 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,439 Speaker 1: going to catch up with this guy, I don't think so. Yeah, 1273 01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: I doubt it. Yeah, So, I mean, do we have 1274 01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,200 Speaker 1: more stuff to talk about before we start talking, because 1275 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,680 Speaker 1: it feels like we're starting to talk about theories kind 1276 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,280 Speaker 1: of well, I just yeah, we're getting close to theories here, 1277 01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:28,760 Speaker 1: were sort of yeah, we are, we are sort of 1278 01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,880 Speaker 1: disparaging the guilt of this guy. Uh. And of course 1279 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,040 Speaker 1: there was his height out of the shoot downwards in 1280 01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:39,160 Speaker 1: the in the windows of that b W van. Yeah, 1281 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,960 Speaker 1: that must have been that. Uh. They actually kept going 1282 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:44,680 Speaker 1: after Pacciani. They did this unprecedented search of his house, 1283 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,000 Speaker 1: which involved like digging up his whole yard, going over 1284 01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,920 Speaker 1: his house with scientific instruments and everything else. And the 1285 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,720 Speaker 1: only thing they found was a twenty two shellcasing. The 1286 01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:56,000 Speaker 1: twenty two showcasing was actually had never been fired and 1287 01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,840 Speaker 1: had the bullet had been removed and there was no 1288 01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,120 Speaker 1: powder in it, but there was no firing pin market 1289 01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:05,160 Speaker 1: so it was, you know, an unfired shell. Uh. And 1290 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,040 Speaker 1: so that's all they found. And it did have some 1291 01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: marking south that looks so it looked like maybe it 1292 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 1: had been loaded in the gun at some point. So 1293 01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,840 Speaker 1: they showed it to experts, ballistics experts, who came back 1294 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,280 Speaker 1: and said, well, yeah, I guess the marketings are not 1295 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,120 Speaker 1: totally inconsistent with it being loaded in the twenty two 1296 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,840 Speaker 1: like the monster had. And while that was good, in that. 1297 01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,560 Speaker 1: So it was a pretty pretty weak tea, but the 1298 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,160 Speaker 1: prosecution went with that. They prosecuted the guy. There was 1299 01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 1: a huge trial that lasted like six months and he 1300 01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,280 Speaker 1: was convicted on basically no evidence at all, and eventually 1301 01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,120 Speaker 1: it got thrown out a couple of years later on 1302 01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,440 Speaker 1: appeal and he was set free, and I think they 1303 01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,440 Speaker 1: were going to reprosecute him. And they also arrested a 1304 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,160 Speaker 1: couple of his associates. Uh, this this whole thing is 1305 01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,600 Speaker 1: again ludicrous. He had this one associate that that wasn't 1306 01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:53,680 Speaker 1: in no way linked to it. And then this other guy, 1307 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,160 Speaker 1: as young Carlo Latti, was a village idiot, this this 1308 01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,840 Speaker 1: little village called San Casciano. And this guy came forward. 1309 01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if he came forward on his own. 1310 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,320 Speaker 1: The police just found him and got him taught to 1311 01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,240 Speaker 1: say this, but he said that he had actually taken 1312 01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,400 Speaker 1: part in the killing and of the in the tent 1313 01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:15,160 Speaker 1: and everything, and and so so seven charged people later. Yeah, 1314 01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,880 Speaker 1: I know exactly what. And so these guys were charged 1315 01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,040 Speaker 1: and convicted even though it's just ludicrous. Uh, and kept 1316 01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,960 Speaker 1: getting weirder. The police really got into this whole thing 1317 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,400 Speaker 1: about the satanic death cult and all this stuff and 1318 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,040 Speaker 1: using the monster to get body parts for these rituals, 1319 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:33,960 Speaker 1: and as like as two thousand seven, a pharmacist from 1320 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,640 Speaker 1: the town of Sankoskiano, because apparently the police believed that 1321 01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,600 Speaker 1: this was ground zero for all the satanic activities that 1322 01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:45,840 Speaker 1: were going on. So this pharmacist was charged as he 1323 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,160 Speaker 1: was accused of being one of the masterminds of the 1324 01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:51,280 Speaker 1: monster's killing, and in the end of trial judge dismissed 1325 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,240 Speaker 1: the charges, and he actually did so with kind of contempt. 1326 01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,200 Speaker 1: He basically said, there's just no He didn't say the 1327 01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,360 Speaker 1: evidence isn't quite there. He said there's no reason to 1328 01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:03,240 Speaker 1: believe any of this, and so he threw it all out. Uh, 1329 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,920 Speaker 1: and that's about it. Unless the monster moved away, changed 1330 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,080 Speaker 1: his m O and kept on killing. The killing seemed 1331 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,680 Speaker 1: to have ended in I would say that inaccurate. As 1332 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,880 Speaker 1: far as I know the the investigation is still going on, 1333 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,680 Speaker 1: and I would not be surprised to read one of 1334 01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,720 Speaker 1: these days that's yet somebody else has been indicted and 1335 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,200 Speaker 1: being put on trial for this thing. I mean, as 1336 01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:28,639 Speaker 1: looney as this whole thing has been, and I haven't 1337 01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:30,720 Speaker 1: totally captured the insanity of the whole thing. If you 1338 01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,160 Speaker 1: really want to know here the entire incredible bizarre story, 1339 01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,200 Speaker 1: read The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston, great book, 1340 01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,000 Speaker 1: and you'll get the whole insane story there. All right, 1341 01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:43,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna let's go to series. But before we do that, 1342 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:50,639 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. But even towed ongulates mill 1343 01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:53,640 Speaker 1: about and wait until it's their turn. Their patients they 1344 01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:56,400 Speaker 1: have all night. They'll just stand bunch together, chewing their 1345 01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,320 Speaker 1: cud and occasionally letting out a bleak, which is a 1346 01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,840 Speaker 1: bit ironic if you think about it, because it's that vocalization, 1347 01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,120 Speaker 1: not their order jumping over the fence, that's most likely 1348 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,960 Speaker 1: to keep you up at night. Actually, now that I 1349 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,160 Speaker 1: think about it, what's most likely to keep you awake 1350 01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 1: is their smell. Oh and um, do you have hardwood floors, 1351 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,720 Speaker 1: because if you do all of that jumping up and 1352 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:19,679 Speaker 1: down and milling around is going to do a real 1353 01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,240 Speaker 1: number on it. Luckily, there's a better way than counting 1354 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 1: sheep to get a good night's sleep, and that's what 1355 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,439 Speaker 1: the Casper mattress. Casper is an obsessively engineered mattress at 1356 01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:33,600 Speaker 1: a shockingly fair price. It's supportive memory Foam creates an 1357 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,559 Speaker 1: award winning to sleep surface with just the right sink 1358 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,320 Speaker 1: and just the right bounce, and they offer free shipping 1359 01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,320 Speaker 1: and returns in the US and Canada. I have one, 1360 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,719 Speaker 1: and it's about a million times better than the crappy 1361 01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,880 Speaker 1: hotel mattress that I'm sleeping on right now. I will 1362 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,400 Speaker 1: love it. And Casper is offered that if you go 1363 01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,439 Speaker 1: to Casper dot com slash sideways and use the offer 1364 01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:01,160 Speaker 1: code sideways, you get fifty dollars towards any mattress purchase. 1365 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:05,720 Speaker 1: That's www dot Casper dot com slash sideways and the 1366 01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,799 Speaker 1: offer code sideways. Terms and conditions apply because hardwood floors 1367 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:18,800 Speaker 1: are a lot more expensive. And we're back, so we're 1368 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,320 Speaker 1: gonna actually talk about theories now, not just disparage the 1369 01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,759 Speaker 1: story as we're going through, Like, yeah, let's talk about theories. 1370 01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,200 Speaker 1: I guess we could, um, I guess we could start 1371 01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:30,400 Speaker 1: with as we just talked about Piero, I guess we 1372 01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,600 Speaker 1: could talk about him a little bit. Uh it just 1373 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, let's knock him out real quick, like, I mean, 1374 01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:36,800 Speaker 1: it seems to me like he's just not a good 1375 01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,920 Speaker 1: fit at all. There's not a shred of evidence too small, 1376 01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,120 Speaker 1: too out of shape, and they well, and it seems 1377 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,360 Speaker 1: like he and then all of his associates. The it 1378 01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,200 Speaker 1: feels like somebody in the prosecutor's office realized they had 1379 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,679 Speaker 1: a gold mine of possible people and just win after 1380 01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:55,840 Speaker 1: them all. And it was just a charge fast, like 1381 01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,160 Speaker 1: we do this, we do that. Because you were talking 1382 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,280 Speaker 1: about the fact that they they went after some of 1383 01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,080 Speaker 1: his associates, right, yeah, they did, yeah so, And he 1384 01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,400 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, let's just it's the smartest board of people. 1385 01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:08,240 Speaker 1: Let's just chorge. I don't know. I think probably what 1386 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,040 Speaker 1: they did is they looked at situations in which they 1387 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,720 Speaker 1: had a convicted killer who had killed somebody in a 1388 01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,920 Speaker 1: similar situation which he had hum and he was also, 1389 01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,240 Speaker 1: by the way, and not a good not a nice person, 1390 01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,720 Speaker 1: nice person, and they were like, yeah, he probably could 1391 01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,400 Speaker 1: have done it, just totally ignoring the fact that physically 1392 01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:28,720 Speaker 1: he could not have done it, at least not the 1393 01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,800 Speaker 1: last ones. Yeah so, and there were probably plenty of 1394 01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,160 Speaker 1: other people out there in the countryside who were also 1395 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:39,080 Speaker 1: as big as jerks as he was too. Unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately, 1396 01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:42,760 Speaker 1: that's a sad fact. But next okay, so Piano was 1397 01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,960 Speaker 1: out Let's see who next to this one? And just 1398 01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:54,599 Speaker 1: because not let you know, okay, not so I threw 1399 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,280 Speaker 1: him in because, let's face it, if you were going 1400 01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:58,400 Speaker 1: to ask Hollywood to make a movie about this story 1401 01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:00,320 Speaker 1: and he told the screenwriters to throw in a killer 1402 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,320 Speaker 1: twist at the end with a surprise killer, well you know, 1403 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,200 Speaker 1: Nataline would probably get the part. Yeah, he would. I 1404 01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,519 Speaker 1: mean think about it, what this whole draw, this whole 1405 01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,040 Speaker 1: trauma and everything, And then he could sort of see 1406 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,280 Speaker 1: why he would come back and and read that at 1407 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,240 Speaker 1: least in the cliche, in the clich minds of Hollywood 1408 01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,960 Speaker 1: script writers who know what was what was that? Remember 1409 01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the good son with what's his name from Home Alone 1410 01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:28,519 Speaker 1: Macauley Culkin, where he was just he was the psycho kid. 1411 01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean, if this was the Hollywood version, it could 1412 01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,519 Speaker 1: be he could actually have been the one who shot 1413 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:37,960 Speaker 1: his mom and his uncle from the back of the car. 1414 01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,320 Speaker 1: He could have done the initial killings and it was 1415 01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,760 Speaker 1: his gun the whole way, like how he statues it. 1416 01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,000 Speaker 1: Hollywood has to figure out. I mean, it seems like 1417 01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:51,800 Speaker 1: a hell of a stretch that bunk, right. A six 1418 01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:55,680 Speaker 1: year old kid doesn't like hide a gun for I mean, 1419 01:13:55,760 --> 01:14:00,559 Speaker 1: that's not that's not it doesn't matter. I don't care anyway. Um, 1420 01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:09,720 Speaker 1: but to suppose that he witnessed and kill his mother 1421 01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:14,160 Speaker 1: and then um and you know, presumably, then I guess 1422 01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,120 Speaker 1: we can say like he was awake and like saw 1423 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,800 Speaker 1: them having sex, and they saw the whole thing. And 1424 01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:23,640 Speaker 1: if it was somebody who was related to him, he 1425 01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:25,760 Speaker 1: could have gotten the gun from it, especially if it 1426 01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,560 Speaker 1: was his dad who did the shooting. You know, it 1427 01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:30,960 Speaker 1: could have been his dad's gun and he just hit it. 1428 01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,720 Speaker 1: And I don't think his dad actually owned a gun. 1429 01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:36,800 Speaker 1: I mean in any way, in any case, anybody who 1430 01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:42,200 Speaker 1: was related to him, you know, having the gun given 1431 01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:46,559 Speaker 1: it to him and let him live out his childhood traumas. Yeah, 1432 01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:51,320 Speaker 1: I thought would be therapeutic for him to go out listen, 1433 01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:52,960 Speaker 1: just so you know, this is the gun that killed 1434 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,800 Speaker 1: your mother. We thought you should have it because people 1435 01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,519 Speaker 1: do weird stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, maybe, I you know, 1436 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,160 Speaker 1: it's and that bent him permanently. Yeah, it could be. Uh, 1437 01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:05,760 Speaker 1: in fairness to him, I have to say, that is 1438 01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,519 Speaker 1: not a shred of evidence. So you know, it's just that, 1439 01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,760 Speaker 1: you know it just like again, if Hollywood were making 1440 01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:13,680 Speaker 1: a movie out of this, he would definitely be big. 1441 01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,080 Speaker 1: It would be him. Oh yeah, it probably would be him. 1442 01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,479 Speaker 1: It would be because of what he went through. But 1443 01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so 1444 01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,519 Speaker 1: I I really can't say how. You know, lots of 1445 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,320 Speaker 1: kids go through traumas and don't become serial killers, you know, 1446 01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:30,559 Speaker 1: So there's that too. Well, if his I mean, if 1447 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,200 Speaker 1: the people who ended up and I don't know what 1448 01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:34,880 Speaker 1: the situation was, I don't know who ended up raising 1449 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,680 Speaker 1: him or like anything like that, but it sounds like 1450 01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:39,560 Speaker 1: the people who were close to him, at least the 1451 01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,000 Speaker 1: male people that were close to him, were kind of 1452 01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,600 Speaker 1: all messed up in some way or another. And so 1453 01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:49,479 Speaker 1: if if his father and the quote unquote uncles, you know, 1454 01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,160 Speaker 1: it's even possible that they were saying things like, listen, 1455 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,720 Speaker 1: your mother died because what she was doing was a sin. 1456 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,320 Speaker 1: But they didn't ever say to him what aspect of 1457 01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:01,679 Speaker 1: that was a sent right, So in his mind, it's 1458 01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:05,000 Speaker 1: just drilled into him that like having sex in cars 1459 01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:09,600 Speaker 1: is horribly horrible and they have to be you know, 1460 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,720 Speaker 1: put right, and then there's some weird sexual I'm so 1461 01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:21,240 Speaker 1: sure Freud would have a heyday with this. So I mean, 1462 01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,840 Speaker 1: I think I agree. I don't think he probably actually 1463 01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,080 Speaker 1: did it, but I think it's a really compelling, interesting 1464 01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,160 Speaker 1: rabbit hole to fall down. Oh yeah, And I'm sure 1465 01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:31,200 Speaker 1: whatever if he did, even if he didn't become a 1466 01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:34,240 Speaker 1: serial killer, I'm sure he has some issues. Yeah, you 1467 01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:38,600 Speaker 1: would think, Yeah, quite the evening he had. But so 1468 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I don't, I don't. I'm not 1469 01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,640 Speaker 1: gonna say he was you know, who knows. Maybe. I mean, 1470 01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:45,400 Speaker 1: he definitely is not a good fit for the nineteen 1471 01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,880 Speaker 1: seventy four murder. Be guess he would have been about 1472 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,080 Speaker 1: like what twelve I mean conceivably, I mean, twelve year 1473 01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:53,320 Speaker 1: o k could have drugged you know, could have used again. 1474 01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,240 Speaker 1: Sure dragon a body about ten twelve meter And I 1475 01:16:56,280 --> 01:17:00,120 Speaker 1: thought that seventy four murder was the one where she 1476 01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:05,920 Speaker 1: was just stabbed repeatedly but no actual times excision was made. Yeah, exactly, Okay, 1477 01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:09,479 Speaker 1: I mean a twelve year old. Although maybe, I mean, 1478 01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:11,720 Speaker 1: I guess it's true he could have had help. I mean, 1479 01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, if he was raised by crazy uncles, maybe 1480 01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:16,200 Speaker 1: he could have been like, all right, it's time for you, 1481 01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,599 Speaker 1: let's go, let's go have this cathartic experience, and then 1482 01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,920 Speaker 1: how he liked it. It's your Yeah, there you go, 1483 01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,840 Speaker 1: coming of age kid. Yeah, yeah, I don't, but I agree. 1484 01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,320 Speaker 1: I don't think he didn't. Probably not because who's next 1485 01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:35,559 Speaker 1: up on the list. Let's see Francesco Francesco Vinci. Okay, so, um, 1486 01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,960 Speaker 1: there's there's three Vinciese or something like that. So which 1487 01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,400 Speaker 1: one is this? This is? Uh? Salvatori and Francesco were 1488 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:47,880 Speaker 1: the two brothers, and then Antonio Benc she was Salvatory's son. Okay, 1489 01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:50,519 Speaker 1: and Antonio and and and they were by the way, 1490 01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,160 Speaker 1: a strange Salvatory and anywhere there's a bunch of Vinci. 1491 01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:54,880 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to clear it up again because 1492 01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 1: it's been well since we talked about him. That's a 1493 01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,479 Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, So Francesco the two brothers, and and 1494 01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:05,719 Speaker 1: then and then Francesco's nephew, Salvatori's son Antonio. Uh so Francesco, well, 1495 01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,120 Speaker 1: you know, I mean it does seem like he knew something, 1496 01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:11,640 Speaker 1: although again, maybe, like you said, he was just speculating 1497 01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:13,800 Speaker 1: that that time to think about it. Two of the 1498 01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,519 Speaker 1: murders took place while he was in jail, so uh, 1499 01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, I guess we want to take the theory 1500 01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,280 Speaker 1: that it was there was more than one monster, one 1501 01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:26,000 Speaker 1: of one person doing it. Perhaps Antonio was committing these 1502 01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:28,160 Speaker 1: murders just, you know, while he was in jail, is 1503 01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:33,360 Speaker 1: a way to exonerate him. The police were saying, yeah, 1504 01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:36,800 Speaker 1: although I'm not sure that I buy that, because if 1505 01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:39,000 Speaker 1: he was doing it to just to to get him 1506 01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:42,000 Speaker 1: out of jail, then okay, So he kills the two 1507 01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:46,479 Speaker 1: German guys and anyway, it's well over a year for 1508 01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:50,000 Speaker 1: the next killing. Well maybe he I mean, it doesn't 1509 01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:52,920 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like he really liked his brother that month. 1510 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:55,640 Speaker 1: I was just no, we're talking to Antonio and so 1511 01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:01,880 Speaker 1: Antonio because Francesco was locked, say, I know it's gonna 1512 01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:06,240 Speaker 1: used one last time. So Salvatory's son was Antonio and 1513 01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,559 Speaker 1: uh and then his and then Francesco was Antonio's uncle, 1514 01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:13,240 Speaker 1: and they actually, Francesco and Antonio had a very great relationship. 1515 01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:16,280 Speaker 1: They were never very good close buddies. Good neither of 1516 01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:20,040 Speaker 1: them like Salvatory. Yeah, neither than did. And so if so, 1517 01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:22,960 Speaker 1: if you're gonna take the idea that he committed these 1518 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:25,760 Speaker 1: two murders, I don't think it's the case because I 1519 01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:27,760 Speaker 1: don't think he would have waited as long as he did. 1520 01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:30,400 Speaker 1: He let his uncle like sit in jail for quite 1521 01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:32,880 Speaker 1: a while. Uh where he could have actually, well, okay, 1522 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:36,200 Speaker 1: one murder wasn't enough. Okay, I'll go murder somebody else again. Okay, 1523 01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:38,080 Speaker 1: But but to put it, but to put the shoe 1524 01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:40,960 Speaker 1: on the other foot, you don't want to press it, 1525 01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,960 Speaker 1: You don't well, I mean, you know, the cops are everywhere. 1526 01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:48,639 Speaker 1: They're out there looking, you don't. You know, it's it's 1527 01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,720 Speaker 1: kind of a it's a dangerous game to be like, well, 1528 01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:55,040 Speaker 1: let's go do it again and try and get him 1529 01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:57,880 Speaker 1: out faster. Well, you know, you've got to be really 1530 01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,000 Speaker 1: really careful. And he may have he if it was 1531 01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:04,639 Speaker 1: so in this theory, what you're saying is we're you're 1532 01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:08,200 Speaker 1: saying it's Antonio who's doing that to get to get Francesco. 1533 01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:11,400 Speaker 1: To get Francesco out, he would he would maybe he 1534 01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:15,160 Speaker 1: was very very very cautious. He could have been out, 1535 01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, once every month or two, spotting and going up. Now, 1536 01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:23,439 Speaker 1: now you know that guy, that guy livets some weights. Um, 1537 01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,519 Speaker 1: he will he will club me. I'm not going after 1538 01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:28,880 Speaker 1: or no, those people. I don't like to look at him. 1539 01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:31,840 Speaker 1: I mean there's a whole whole slew of reasons he 1540 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:34,439 Speaker 1: may have just taken his time. Well, I could think 1541 01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,880 Speaker 1: of actually one reason that would spoil his kills. You 1542 01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:39,080 Speaker 1: know a lot of times as he's the chasing out 1543 01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:40,439 Speaker 1: these guys and that some of these some of the 1544 01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,599 Speaker 1: Varriors show up with their cameras and craft, it's like, oh, well, 1545 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:47,840 Speaker 1: there's Scott. So that must have been a major impediment 1546 01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,320 Speaker 1: for him with one of those guys were hanging out 1547 01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,519 Speaker 1: there at the same time. It's kind of kind of 1548 01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:55,800 Speaker 1: amazing that this guy really was pretty good that he 1549 01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:58,200 Speaker 1: was never spotted by any of these Varriors who were 1550 01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:00,640 Speaker 1: hanging out there all over the places those whats. But 1551 01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:03,000 Speaker 1: you know what's funny is that I remember reading about 1552 01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,600 Speaker 1: the Voyers is that they know not only did they 1553 01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,439 Speaker 1: have cameras and listening devices, but they had weirdly some 1554 01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:14,639 Speaker 1: of the latest technology in night vision goggles. Well let's 1555 01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,519 Speaker 1: take this. Let's back up. Let's say I'm wanting to 1556 01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,600 Speaker 1: kill somebody and I come across the Voyor and I'm like, 1557 01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,120 Speaker 1: you jerk, you just screwed this up, and you beat 1558 01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,559 Speaker 1: the crap out of the guy and you take his stuff. 1559 01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,160 Speaker 1: He's not going to call the cops and say, some 1560 01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:33,240 Speaker 1: guys stole all of my equipment for people on people 1561 01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:36,200 Speaker 1: who were having section cars like so then he would 1562 01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:40,240 Speaker 1: get he'd suddenly have things to you. So he might 1563 01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:43,360 Speaker 1: be like, oh, hey, these goggles are great. Ope, Nope, nope, 1564 01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:46,360 Speaker 1: I see I see Peep and Joe over there. No, 1565 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:49,639 Speaker 1: definitely can't go on that one. This night is a bust. 1566 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,640 Speaker 1: And if he's going for nights where it's dark, you know, 1567 01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:57,559 Speaker 1: no moon. It's a limited time each month. Yeah, and yeah, 1568 01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,599 Speaker 1: and so yeah, there was just that small, that small 1569 01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:02,720 Speaker 1: window time and there was always going to be these 1570 01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:07,040 Speaker 1: guys out there screwing things up. So yeah, Antonio springing Francesco. 1571 01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:11,280 Speaker 1: Now I think that probably Francesco just wasn't the killer. Again, 1572 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,840 Speaker 1: although we don't know for a fact that the monster 1573 01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:16,760 Speaker 1: was just one guy. Yeah, we don't know that it 1574 01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:21,559 Speaker 1: could have been more than one, although probably not. I mean, 1575 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:26,400 Speaker 1: that's a pretty specific mutilation and it's pretty brutal, and 1576 01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:30,080 Speaker 1: I mean I guess I just in my brain hope 1577 01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:33,280 Speaker 1: that like there's not more than one person in any 1578 01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:37,880 Speaker 1: given region he was willing to do that. But I 1579 01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:41,600 Speaker 1: could be a wrong assumption, but it's my hope in 1580 01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,920 Speaker 1: this world. Yeah, yeah, most of us, I don't. I 1581 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,200 Speaker 1: hope that most of us can't do stuff like that. 1582 01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:49,320 Speaker 1: I don't think I could. Mostly, I just hope that, 1583 01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, the one if it was one of the Vinci's, 1584 01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, they came back and they were like, oh, yeah, 1585 01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:56,120 Speaker 1: I just did this thing, and like look at this 1586 01:22:56,240 --> 01:23:03,160 Speaker 1: thing that I got and everyone was like dude, no, no. 1587 01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,280 Speaker 1: But in that story, right, we're saying that he came 1588 01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:08,720 Speaker 1: back he was like, look at what I just did, 1589 01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:10,559 Speaker 1: and everyone was like, yeah, I can get on board 1590 01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:15,400 Speaker 1: with that. I could do that problem. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, 1591 01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:17,759 Speaker 1: maybe it was an initiation, right, that's some like Texas 1592 01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,840 Speaker 1: chainsaw mask her crazy. Yeah, it's like like the hills 1593 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:27,080 Speaker 1: have eyes kind of yeah. Sorry, yeah, it's that kind 1594 01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:29,719 Speaker 1: of Yes. Yeah, I don't think. I think these guys 1595 01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:32,000 Speaker 1: were not model citizens. I don't know if they were 1596 01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:35,760 Speaker 1: all that twisted and messed up. So, I mean, so, 1597 01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,639 Speaker 1: do we have a good suspect. I mean, well, there's 1598 01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:45,320 Speaker 1: there was one possibility because salvatare Um, you know, salvotare Is. 1599 01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:50,960 Speaker 1: Maybe because he's the other brother, Yes, Salbotore uh Antonio's dad. 1600 01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:54,120 Speaker 1: He left the country well, he was in jail from 1601 01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:58,120 Speaker 1: early eight six onward. He was under surveillance prior to that, 1602 01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:01,080 Speaker 1: but then and then he left in ninety eight, so 1603 01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:03,040 Speaker 1: that would account for if he was the killer, that 1604 01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:07,320 Speaker 1: would account for why they stopped so, which makes salvatory. 1605 01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:10,160 Speaker 1: Although at the same time he was being followed by 1606 01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,519 Speaker 1: the police quite a lot. I can't imagine that they 1607 01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:15,960 Speaker 1: were all too subtle about that. No, they weren't. He 1608 01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:19,040 Speaker 1: was aware of being followed generally at least, and so 1609 01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:21,760 Speaker 1: he knew he was being followed. So it would have 1610 01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,080 Speaker 1: been pretty ballsy on his part to go out and 1611 01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:26,640 Speaker 1: commit a murder. I mean, all the other ones you 1612 01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,120 Speaker 1: have with the murder, that was when he was really, 1613 01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:31,439 Speaker 1: you know, starting to come to their attention. Can you 1614 01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:36,000 Speaker 1: remind me what was the progression of her of Barbara's 1615 01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:40,600 Speaker 1: progression through the Vinci brothers. Was it Francisco first or 1616 01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:45,120 Speaker 1: was it Salvatory. It was Salvatory first, and then Francesco 1617 01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:49,120 Speaker 1: Francesco and then and not Antonio the nephew, but Antonio Lobianko, 1618 01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:53,000 Speaker 1: who was not related to them. Yeah, okay, I mean, 1619 01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:57,040 Speaker 1: I guess I can see Stefano feeling really jilted. And 1620 01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:01,000 Speaker 1: then again doing nothing that we're kind of talking about 1621 01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:05,559 Speaker 1: with um with Natalino, where he just never quite got 1622 01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:10,519 Speaker 1: over the slight and you know, maybe because he when 1623 01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:15,160 Speaker 1: he initially murdered Barbara, he was feeling like, oh, um, 1624 01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,960 Speaker 1: I can't you know the kids right here, I care 1625 01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,840 Speaker 1: about this kid. I can't you know, take out all 1626 01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:23,800 Speaker 1: of my rage on her. And so he had that 1627 01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,400 Speaker 1: kind of weirdness in his brain and that he was 1628 01:25:27,439 --> 01:25:32,600 Speaker 1: trying to work out. You know, again that's probably cognizant 1629 01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:36,560 Speaker 1: of like what but yeah, I mean I'm talking Salvadora. 1630 01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,640 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so you think he was feeling a 1631 01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:42,600 Speaker 1: little guilt over the well that he didn't that he 1632 01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:45,280 Speaker 1: had more anger towards Barbara than he was able to 1633 01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:49,040 Speaker 1: express because Natalino was there in the back seat, and 1634 01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:51,720 Speaker 1: so he cared about Natalino, and he you know, took 1635 01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:57,120 Speaker 1: him and took him to a safe That's yeah, that's 1636 01:25:57,160 --> 01:25:59,639 Speaker 1: why the six one didn't have any mutilation. And then 1637 01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:02,080 Speaker 1: maybe he was able to kind of or he was 1638 01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:04,800 Speaker 1: trying to suppress it, you know. So that's why there 1639 01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,840 Speaker 1: was such a big gap between that one and then one, 1640 01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:11,559 Speaker 1: and then it just kind of ramps up. He does 1641 01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,680 Speaker 1: it once and he's like, oh no, he's like so 1642 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,200 Speaker 1: compelled to just keep working it out. I don't know, 1643 01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,679 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I had no idea either, Yeah, 1644 01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:26,160 Speaker 1: but not a criminal psychologist. I mean he eventually, yeah, 1645 01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,680 Speaker 1: they got over and he went back to um Sardinia 1646 01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,080 Speaker 1: and became a serial killer there. I don't know. Yeah, 1647 01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean it's possible, Yeah, it could be, but yeah, 1648 01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:41,200 Speaker 1: uh so possible. But again, it's these guys were sneaky 1649 01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,679 Speaker 1: because they never really left much in the way of evidence. 1650 01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,760 Speaker 1: There's one of the last guy, and this guy is 1651 01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:47,599 Speaker 1: actually kind of the favorite of a lot of people, 1652 01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:52,040 Speaker 1: and that is Antonio Vinci. We've talked at length about already. Yeah, 1653 01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,559 Speaker 1: we talked about him a little bit. Well, you'll remember 1654 01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:59,160 Speaker 1: police were suspicious Francesco because he was close to the 1655 01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:02,639 Speaker 1: scene of to kill things and he was actually at 1656 01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:05,080 Speaker 1: both those times he was hanging out with Antonio, so 1657 01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:08,360 Speaker 1: that was and in one in one case, Antonio lived 1658 01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:11,560 Speaker 1: a mere six kilometers from the murder side, so that 1659 01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:13,799 Speaker 1: that's that's actually as much of a finger of guilt 1660 01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:18,439 Speaker 1: towards Antonio as to Francesco, just for that alone. Uh. 1661 01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:22,360 Speaker 1: He was talking to Mario Spetcy the journalist and Douglas Preston. 1662 01:27:22,439 --> 01:27:24,960 Speaker 1: They actually pit and cornered him in his own kitchen, 1663 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,680 Speaker 1: and he at that time acknowledged that he owned a 1664 01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:31,240 Speaker 1: scuba knife. Now, whether he was just tweaking them, I 1665 01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,800 Speaker 1: don't know us, but a scuba knife, because he was 1666 01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:36,600 Speaker 1: talking about how his bad relationship with the smothered salvatory 1667 01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,800 Speaker 1: and he talked about how they got in this really 1668 01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:40,720 Speaker 1: big knockdown fight and he had him down on the 1669 01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,000 Speaker 1: floor pin then he had a scuba and I had 1670 01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,240 Speaker 1: my scuba knife to his throat. Yeah, And maybe he 1671 01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:49,479 Speaker 1: was just being kind of actually kind of being taunting 1672 01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:52,720 Speaker 1: them about the case, because he had to have known 1673 01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:56,040 Speaker 1: that they thought he was maybe the killer. He was 1674 01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:58,479 Speaker 1: according to what they talked to him, they found that 1675 01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:00,960 Speaker 1: he was extremely up on the case. He was very 1676 01:28:01,040 --> 01:28:03,600 Speaker 1: familiar with it. Although that's to be expected even if 1677 01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,600 Speaker 1: he's not the killer, he's involved. He likes to be 1678 01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:09,400 Speaker 1: or not he's It pays to know the details of 1679 01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:12,200 Speaker 1: the case that you were suspected of being involved in. Yeah. 1680 01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:16,360 Speaker 1: Another thing about Antonio is he'd be about the right 1681 01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:19,400 Speaker 1: age for it. And he actually moved away from Florence 1682 01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:23,160 Speaker 1: between the years night so that means that whole gap 1683 01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,479 Speaker 1: between the seventy four killing and killing, well, that could 1684 01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:30,760 Speaker 1: sort of be accounted for by Francesco being out of town. Uh. 1685 01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,200 Speaker 1: So that would account for why there had been no 1686 01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,240 Speaker 1: murders between the seventy four murder and the nine eighty 1687 01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,479 Speaker 1: one murder. So that fits. Uh. And he knowledged to 1688 01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,479 Speaker 1: Preston and and Spetcy when he talked to them that 1689 01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:46,600 Speaker 1: he was with Francesco when Francesco hid the car in 1690 01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,000 Speaker 1: the woods way back in like eighty two. And that's 1691 01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:52,720 Speaker 1: about it. That's not a huge amount of evidence. I mean, 1692 01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:56,640 Speaker 1: what what My biggest problem so far with all of 1693 01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:01,920 Speaker 1: this is that, with the exception of Pietro, this is 1694 01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:06,200 Speaker 1: all focused on one family. Oh well, we can't make 1695 01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:08,200 Speaker 1: it work with this guy. Let's try the other guy. 1696 01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:10,360 Speaker 1: Oh it didn't work with him, Let's try it with 1697 01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the other relative. Like this, this is so easy to 1698 01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:19,000 Speaker 1: me too. Well, let's expand their scope of the investigation 1699 01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:23,920 Speaker 1: from this one family. And I know that they looked 1700 01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:26,560 Speaker 1: into a lot of people, but it is just so 1701 01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:32,320 Speaker 1: easy to have been somebody completely unrelated to this family. 1702 01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,719 Speaker 1: And that's what I think, that's what makes this case 1703 01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:40,080 Speaker 1: such a winner for people and so intriguing and why 1704 01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:44,200 Speaker 1: it's been around so strong. But it's like, I don't 1705 01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:46,800 Speaker 1: know why the cops went about it in the way 1706 01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:51,120 Speaker 1: that they did in terms of the Vinci's like, we've 1707 01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:54,400 Speaker 1: got to focus on the It's frustrating to me. Yeah, Well, 1708 01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:56,960 Speaker 1: after the connection was made to the Buretta handgun, I 1709 01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:58,760 Speaker 1: can understand why they would want to give them a 1710 01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:03,360 Speaker 1: good thorough look see, but overboard, well, yeah, I mean 1711 01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:07,120 Speaker 1: the thing about it is is it's always possible that 1712 01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,439 Speaker 1: the gun actually left their hands and they might have 1713 01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:14,640 Speaker 1: sold it, lost it, they could have been stolen from them. 1714 01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's always possible that and if they are 1715 01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:22,200 Speaker 1: associating with ne'er do wells, it could very easily end 1716 01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:24,160 Speaker 1: up in the hand of yet another murder. I mean, 1717 01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,479 Speaker 1: we've seen these stories in the news before where somebody 1718 01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:30,200 Speaker 1: gets found with a gun on them and they say, well, 1719 01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:32,280 Speaker 1: I bought that gun, and that gun is connected to 1720 01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:35,160 Speaker 1: murders via the blistics. How did you get it? Well, 1721 01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:37,920 Speaker 1: I bought it from the kid on the corner who 1722 01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:40,880 Speaker 1: I buy I buy my coke from. You know, I 1723 01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:42,600 Speaker 1: needed a gun, so I bought it from him. It 1724 01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,040 Speaker 1: turns out it was a gun that was using a 1725 01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:49,400 Speaker 1: crime happen. These things happen, I mean, or the Vinci's 1726 01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,120 Speaker 1: knew a bunch of kind of crappy people. Well they did, 1727 01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:55,640 Speaker 1: especially Francesco. He was he hung out with a lot 1728 01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:58,120 Speaker 1: of criminals. And so, you know, he says, I gotta 1729 01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:00,600 Speaker 1: get rid of this gun. It's hot. I used it 1730 01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:04,840 Speaker 1: in murder. The cops are onto me. It's really it's 1731 01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:07,559 Speaker 1: got a really specific shot pattern. And some guy says, yeah, 1732 01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:10,519 Speaker 1: I'll buy from you. Yeah. He probably didn't even say 1733 01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:12,439 Speaker 1: it was used in a murder. He probably just said, 1734 01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, he had a friend who was looking for 1735 01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:17,280 Speaker 1: a gun. He says, I'll sell you this one. Yeah. 1736 01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:20,559 Speaker 1: Problem yeah, which is joe Y, I don't buy guns 1737 01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:25,519 Speaker 1: from you, a smart reason. Yeah yeah. Yeah. And and 1738 01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:29,519 Speaker 1: so it's entirely possible. Yeah that that this. I think 1739 01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,920 Speaker 1: that the crowd that committed the six St eight murder. 1740 01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:36,320 Speaker 1: I believe that those guys probably were all involved the family. 1741 01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:39,120 Speaker 1: It was a clan killing, but not necessarily. All the 1742 01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:43,880 Speaker 1: later killings not necessarily, but beyond that, who the hell knows. Yeah, 1743 01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:46,960 Speaker 1: I I struggled to believe that the entire thing was 1744 01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:50,800 Speaker 1: done by that that entire family, because that is just such. 1745 01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:54,920 Speaker 1: There's an a level of organization to it that I 1746 01:31:55,280 --> 01:32:01,479 Speaker 1: cannot see a fighting family being able to maintain, especially 1747 01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,280 Speaker 1: with some of the specificity that was done in terms 1748 01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:08,040 Speaker 1: of the attacks on the women and stuff like that. Yeah. 1749 01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:11,360 Speaker 1: Long term, it's like, if you're capable of doing that 1750 01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:13,880 Speaker 1: just for this, you probably are doing a whole bunch 1751 01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:15,960 Speaker 1: of other things and you should have been found. Yeah. 1752 01:32:16,360 --> 01:32:18,599 Speaker 1: So I think we can all agree that we don't 1753 01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,439 Speaker 1: like any of them. Yeah, no, I mean I think 1754 01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:26,439 Speaker 1: that's Antonio definitely as possible as a possibility. But you know, 1755 01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:28,599 Speaker 1: as far as you know what, I sent him to jail, 1756 01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:32,840 Speaker 1: what I vote to send him away now because now, no, 1757 01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:36,160 Speaker 1: the oven'tence really isn't there. Um, And you never know, 1758 01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:39,120 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe someday the gun will turn up and 1759 01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:41,400 Speaker 1: we'll find out where it's been all these years, and 1760 01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:43,519 Speaker 1: we'll get a better idea of you know, maybe who 1761 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,559 Speaker 1: really was was the killer and that's in the bottom 1762 01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:50,240 Speaker 1: of a river. Yeah, probably that. There's always that possibility. 1763 01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:56,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, so the monster. Unfortunately we didn't quite 1764 01:32:56,360 --> 01:33:00,280 Speaker 1: solve this one. Or hanging on Choopy, Sorry Choopy. He 1765 01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:02,920 Speaker 1: likes a notoriety. He does yeah, he does. He enjoys 1766 01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:06,280 Speaker 1: that stuff. You guys got any more theories for I 1767 01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:09,599 Speaker 1: think we've exhausted this one pretty well. I think so well, 1768 01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:11,680 Speaker 1: let me let me tell you guys a few fun 1769 01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:14,360 Speaker 1: facts you're really gonna want to know. First off, you 1770 01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:16,439 Speaker 1: might want to like, you know, especially if you're the killer, 1771 01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:20,040 Speaker 1: please send us an email. And our email is Thinking 1772 01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:24,680 Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And uh, and we 1773 01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,000 Speaker 1: also have one of those website thingies. That website is 1774 01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:32,960 Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can download listen to 1775 01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,800 Speaker 1: our episodes right there. H And also we've got a 1776 01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:39,519 Speaker 1: link for merch there too. Oh yeah on the website yea, yeah, yeah, 1777 01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:42,080 Speaker 1: so you can there's there's a survey is on their 1778 01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,160 Speaker 1: The merch is on there, all of that stuff stuff 1779 01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:47,280 Speaker 1: so you can buy mugs, t shirts, all kinds of 1780 01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:51,000 Speaker 1: good stuff. Uh what else? Other places you can find 1781 01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:53,519 Speaker 1: us would be on iTunes, where you can subscribe. You 1782 01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,200 Speaker 1: can rate us, preferably a five star rating. We like 1783 01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:59,720 Speaker 1: those better and give us a review. That's great to uh. 1784 01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:03,479 Speaker 1: And streaming we can be streamed like from everywhere. Google 1785 01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:04,960 Speaker 1: Play is a big one. I know there's a lot 1786 01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:08,000 Speaker 1: of others this anywhere you find good past anywhere you 1787 01:34:08,160 --> 01:34:13,120 Speaker 1: get fine podcast, there you go. And social media we're 1788 01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:15,479 Speaker 1: there too. We're on Facebook where we have a group 1789 01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:17,800 Speaker 1: in a page. So joined the group, like the page 1790 01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:19,360 Speaker 1: or is it like the group joined the page. I 1791 01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:21,920 Speaker 1: can't remember just joining the group liking the page. There 1792 01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:24,479 Speaker 1: you go. Okay, sorry with the confusion. We're on Twitter, 1793 01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:28,160 Speaker 1: where we are thinking sideways without that g And we 1794 01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:30,960 Speaker 1: have a subreddit thinking sideways. What's going on the subreadit 1795 01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:37,519 Speaker 1: these days? And stuff okay and junk okay. Uh yeah, 1796 01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:39,360 Speaker 1: and that's about it. I already told you about the 1797 01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:41,360 Speaker 1: merchant and stuff like that. So I think we're done 1798 01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:46,680 Speaker 1: for this week, all right, until next week. Chow, I 1799 01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:48,280 Speaker 1: don't know the language by