WEBVTT - John Mackey: Not Sure You're on the Right Path In Your Career? (Use THIS Framework When You Feel Lost About What's Next) 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.720 Was there ever a time when you believed that Whole 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:04.880 Foods was going to fail? 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.640 There were times when it almost did fail, but there 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:09.480 was never a time I actually believed it would fail. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.600 You said something beautiful about what it takes to keep people. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:14.520 That Whole Foods was like, Wow, You've had so many 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.080 people work in twenty thirty, even forty years here. How 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.520 do you do that? You give people two things, give 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.520 them purpose and secondly, they want to feel their loved. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:24.759 So if you give people purpose and love, why would 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.480 they ever want to leave? 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.240 Hey? Everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.800 come to become healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm so 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.040 grateful to have your ears and eyes for the next 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.960 hour or so, and I'm really looking forward to diving 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.879 in with today's guest. Today's guest is John Mackey, an 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.800 entrepreneur and co founder and visionary of Whole Foods market. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.960 In its forty four years of service as CEO, the 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:56.240 Natural and Organic grosser grew from a single store in Austin, Texas, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:01.120 to five hundred and forty stores in the US and Canada, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:06.320 with annual sales exceeding twenty two billion dollars. John co 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.840 founded the Conscious Capitalism movement and co authored the New 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.520 York Times and Wall Street Journal best selling book entitled 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:18.200 Conscious Capitalism, Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business, and then 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:23.880 the follow up Conscious Leadership Elevating Humanity through Business. John 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.400 is also the co author of The Whole Foods Diet, 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.480 The Life Saving Plan for Health and Longevity, and the 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.600 Whole Foods Cookbook. And today we're talking about his latest book, 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:38.080 which is called The Whole Story Adventures in Love, Life 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:40.880 and Capitalism. It's available right now. We're going to put 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:42.720 the link in the comments. I'd love for you to 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.959 order this while you're listening along. I promise you it 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.960 won't disappoint. Please welcome to On Purpose, John Mackie. John, 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.320 it's great to have you here. Thank you so much. 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:53.600 Thanks for having me on Jay. 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:55.280 Yeah, really grateful to have you here. And I was 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.040 saying to you just now before we started that I 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.960 actually received conscious capitalist as such a pivotal moment in 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.760 my life. I just finished three years of living as 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.040 a monk, and I would honestly say that i'd up 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.480 until that point, thought that consciousness or capitalism were two 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.520 separate things, and that there were two separate pursuits. My 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.160 monk life definitely helped me learn how they were integrated. 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.680 But then when I was integrating back into the real world, 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.960 so to speak, for me to wrap my head around 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:33.040 rewiring my relationship with consciousness and capitalism, your book and 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:37.000 your movement really helped craft some of that initial thoughts. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.200 I want to thank you for coming into my life 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.560 at a very pivotal and important moment for me. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.600 Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so you put 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.359 your books out into the world and you don't always 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.960 know if it's helping anybody or if it's having an impact, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.959 and unless you hear back from people. So of course 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:56.680 that makes me feel really good. Thanks for sharing that, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:57.480 of course. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.519 John. There's so much to talk about today, actually about 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.880 your new book, The Whole Story, and I wanted to 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.960 start off actually just by asking you, was there ever 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.519 a time when you believed that Whole Foods was going 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:11.000 to fail? 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.720 I don't think there's ever time I believed it was 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.120 going to fail. There were times when it almost did fail, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.680 but there was never time I actually believed it would fail. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.679 I'm a follower of Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey, and 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.360 I feel like every one of us has called a 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.080 hero's journey, but for a variety of reasons, most people 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.920 don't answer that call, usually fear. I just kind of 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.520 answered that call. I just I got when I'm studying 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:41.040 existentialism and philosophy and university in my very late teens 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.280 and early twenties, I got really clear about death. We're 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.920 going to die. Nobody gets out of here alive, and 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.080 it's a lot shorter than people realize, the time that 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.200 we have. So what do you want to do with it? 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.360 I felt like this is what my heart and my 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.720 soul called me to do. I talk about it in 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.240 the book quite a bit. And so when you're on 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.360 the hero's journey, you have a lot of near failures, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.840 you have setbacks, you do get knocked down, but also 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.840 amazing things happen. All these synchronicities occurred. You seem to 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.320 meet the right person at the right time, the right 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.800 mentor shows up, Miracles seem to occur when you're on 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.799 your path, and it's just sort of this grand adventure. 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.320 And yes, I mean we did have We had a 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.839 flood in our first year at Whole Feeds Market where 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.279 we had eight feet of water, and I didn't know. 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.560 We'll call it a near death experience, but actually it 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.160 was turned out in retrospective and a great thing. It 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.520 taught us a lot. It taught me about stakeholders and 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.240 how we're all interconnected, and how there are people that 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.600 love you. Your customers can love you, your employees can 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.920 love you, your suppliers can love you, and the community you're 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.599 part of can love you, and you can love them back. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.000 So even in the bad things that happened, the disasters, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.200 if you reframe them, they were all lessons to be 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.120 learned on the hero's journey on the path. So no, 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.400 I never really thought that would fail. I always thought 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.040 it would be successful, but you know, we almost did 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:06.680 a few times, but we didn't. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.360 Yeah, do you feel now you're at the stage of 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.760 the hero's journey where you're returning with the elixir? Is 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:12.719 that where you're at? 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.560 Or you know, I've returned with that alixer, But then 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.960 I feel like I'm still called And that's my new 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.159 business I started up called love Life, which is I 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.919 think also about it's still trying to help people to 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.440 be the healthiest version of themselves, but going beyond just 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.200 healthy food and the deeper part of spirituality, physical healing, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.000 emotional healing, and spiritual healing. And we now have the 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.720 technologies we didn't have in the past, and we have 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:46.240 the wearables, and we have the consciousness that need. So 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.360 many traditions are integrating now around the world, all of 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.479 the mystical paths. I mean, you were a monk for 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.159 three years, so clearly you were doing a lot of meditation, 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.400 you were on your spiritual journey. Well, today that all 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.000 that knowledge has been available to people, it's so much 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.960 it's easier to become enlightened today than it used to be, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.880 you might say. And I feel like a course, that's 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:11.159 what humanity needs, right, collective awakening, collective enlightenment. And yeah, 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:12.799 so I feel like I'm still on the path. 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:15.920 I love that. I mean, in the book the Whole Story, 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.200 you're very candid, you're very open, and you're a different 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.920 sort of business leader because of what you just spoke about. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.920 I'm intrigued as to when did your curiosity and consciousness 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.960 and spirituality begin. Is it something that was always there 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.000 since you were born or was it something that you 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:32.800 discovered over time? 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.200 And how even as a child. I mean, I think 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.320 most children have some kind of mystical relationship with part 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:44.280 of their being and their imaginations, their love and innocence, 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.640 and children always felt a connection to the divine even 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.080 as a child. And then it was more traditional. I 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.000 was raised as a Christian, so traditional Christianity. The deeper 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.840 spiritual awakening occurred when I was like first time I 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.320 actually took a psychedelic drug LSD, back when I was 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:05.039 twenty in university, and that sort of knocked me off 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.200 the path my parents had planned for me. My parents 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.440 wanted to meet possibly your parents wanted the same thing 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.120 for me, to be a professional above all else. They 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.400 wanted me to be a doctor or a lawyer, or 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.320 an engineer or get an MBA do you know, be respectable. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.520 And but that totally knocked me off. And then I 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.520 began my own search for the meaning of life. I 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.880 wanted to understand do I have a purpose? What is 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.920 existence about? Is it all just you know, random chance? 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.520 Darwinni darwinni and survival of the fittest? Is there a 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:41.280 deeper spirituality? And of course that's not found necessarily externally. 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.960 It's an interiority. It's found within our own being, within 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.600 our own consciousness, and the psychul the lsd awakened me 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.920 to that possibility, and then I began to read Eastern religions. 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:56.880 I studied religion, meditating uh. And then I continued on 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.560 that journey and had experienced an ego death again through 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.480 psychedelics when I was about twenty two. That's really kind 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.240 of the starting point of the book. I dissolved my ego, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.240 I mean, and I was just part of the one 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.240 only there's only the one being, and I just realized 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:17.320 that at the essence I remembered it. Actually it was like, oh, yeah, 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:22.520 forgot here it is. And that changed everything because then 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.119 I was like, all right, I can create to dream, 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.280 I can create whatever I want to create, and what 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:31.960 do I want to create? And that's where the interiority 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:36.079 the hero's journey begins. And I moved into this food 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.240 co op when I was twenty two years old, maybe 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.000 twenty three, and it was vegetarian. I wasn't vegetarian at 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.480 that time, but I was really interested in all things counterculture. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.679 I like the hippies and I thought, Mam, I meet 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.960 some cool people in the vegetarian co op, and I did, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.120 and I had a food awakening. But until then I 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.040 just kind of ate the standard American diet, a lot 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.760 of junk food. I was more like a car got 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.600 to take get in to get gasoline periodically to run fuel. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:04.880 As long as the fuel tastes good, I'll eat it. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.760 And so I didn't eat many vegetables. I didn't eat 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.480 much healthy food, and so I learned how to cook 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.080 in the co op. I learned about natural, organic foods, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.440 and I got excited about it. Jay I was like 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:17.559 on fire. And then I went to work in a 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.439 small natural food store and it was like I loved it. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.720 I loved I was in a community of employees that 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.200 I shared a lot of current values with. I was 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.000 connecting with customers that were my neighbors and becoming friends, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.040 and it was like, I want to do this. And 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.800 I remember I went back to the co op Prana 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.240 House it was called Proana House and talked to my girlfriend, Renee. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.079 I think that time I was probably about twenty three, 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.320 name was four years younger, so she was nineteen, and 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.360 I said, Renee, what do you think if we open 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.960 up our own store. Don't you think i'd be cool? 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.400 And she said, oh, mac Oman, that'd be really cool. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:54.280 Let's do that. 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.040 So we did and that was the beginning. The first 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.640 door was called Safer Way. Then a couple of years 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.880 later we relocated it merged with another natural food company 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.000 and became Whole Foods Market, and the adventure was well 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:10.000 launched at that point. 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.160 I want to go back to a couple of things 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.600 you mentioned there, John, This idea that you know, not 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:23.160 everyone who takes LSD or a psychedelic sparks a pursuit 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.960 into a deeper spiritual journey. It can for some, it 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.200 doesn't for everyone. For you, it obviously got you into 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.520 philosophy Eastern religions, as you said, it kind of forced 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.040 you deeper. What do you think when you describe that 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.960 to someone who's never had a psychedelic experience, never been 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.160 exposed to that. What does that mean when you say 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.800 I had an awakening. We'll get to the ego death part. 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.160 But when you say you had an awakening, when you 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.000 say open it up, is what are you experiencing for 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.560 someone who may not actually know what that means or 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:52.000 feels like. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.040 Of course, it's like describing a rainbow tos someone who's blind. 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.200 I mean, they can't understand it really until you have 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.679 a similar experience or what is making love like until 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.160 you've actually done it. I mean, there are certain experiences 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.720 that you have to have to actually understand it. So 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.760 when I talk about that, I don't expect people that 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.120 haven't had similar experiences to understand, but I expect the 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.840 ones that have had similar experiences to say, oh, wow, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.200 I've been there, I've done that, I felt that experience. 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.840 That kind of speaking to that audience in a way. 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.839 But I also tell people that don't want to do 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:29.720 psychedelics that there are other pathways that are gentler that 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.360 they can have transcendent experiences. Meditation is one good way, 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.560 but that generally takes a little bit longer for people. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.560 I've found that breath work is very, very powerful, and 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.559 I've worked with that for years, and you can have 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.480 a transcendent experience on breath work where you get in 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.800 touch with your deeper part of your soul just by 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:54.040 breathing continuously, particularly in a guided situation, because you're energizing 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.680 a deeper part of your being in your interioror self, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:11:59.640 and it's beginning to emerge, and that can scare people 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.040 so they about breathing. But if you will keep breathing 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.680 and continue to go through it, this is the best 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.760 chance you'll ever have to have an authentic connection with 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.199 your soul. Not the best chancel lear, but it's a 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.679 really good way to do it that's safe and nothing 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.120 to be afraid of. You just breathing. So I encourage 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.240 people that the psychedelics might scare them. Just don't believe 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.880 that there any meaning in life, that there's any interior 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.960 thing to look at. The interior universe is every bit 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.880 as expansive as the physical universe of not more expansive. 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:33.480 And just we're Americans here and people don't oftentimes do 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.320 these journeys into their interior. You obviously have Jay, you 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.720 spent three years as a month, and so your own 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.160 experiments you might say, or adventures in this part of 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.640 your psyche, are probably very amazing. One of my friends, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.400 he always wants me to try to explain it to 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.160 him in rational terms. His name is Alec, and I say, Alec, listen, 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.520 I can talk about this, but if you really want 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.040 to know what I'm talking about, you have to do 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:03.400 the experiments. Because you're skeptical and you're asking me to 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.760 prove it to you, and I'll say I can prove 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.480 it to you if you will do the meditation, if 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.720 you'll do the breath work, if you do the psychedelics, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.000 you can know there's an authentic spiritual reality that you 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.080 don't believe is there. It's like that story about the 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.959 guy that lost his key on the and he's looking 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.120 under the lamp post because well, that's where the light is, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.800 but it's not there clearly. So if you're asking people 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.920 to become enlightened by just rationality that's looking for it 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.280 in the wrong place, you won't find it there. The 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:34.959 light isn't shining there. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.040 You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic term in the 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.319 language you are using in the Sanskrit is unenthrakash, which 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.280 means in a sky or in a universe, as you 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.120 were saying, and he talks about in the same way 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:52.160 as the external galaxy. We're so excited to explore and 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.240 send things to space and figure out what's going on 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.439 out there. But the inner sky is as vast, if 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:03.880 not more, and as deep and profound and unseen as 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.400 that outer sky, and we don't have that curiosity or 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.160 that energy. I wanted to ask you because I think 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.600 one thing I don't take for granted anymore, John, is 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.000 that for those of us who have had spiritual awakenings 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.600 and spiritual journeys. And I agree with you on the 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.160 rational part. I think the way you explained that is brilliant, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.840 and I can agree with you more although I think 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.320 sometimes we assume that everyone wants to have that experience, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.120 or we assume everyone should go for that experience. And 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.400 I found that I was lucky. I met people who 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:40.440 had had enlightened experiences, and that made me open up 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.640 to the idea that a it was possible, be it existed, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.880 and see it could happen for me. And there was 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.000 this feeling that I would meet someone that I could 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.920 tell was operating in a different realm. They were happier, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.800 they were more conscious, they were more at peace with 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.360 themselves and others. They operated and read themselves differently. Because 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.560 I got to see that and witness that, I recognized 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.920 that there was a difference between observing them and observing 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.720 someone else, and that made me believe that there was 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.000 another reality that I could want to pursue. But I 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:14.680 think for a lot of people, they hear us and 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.320 they hear people and they say, what's the point, Like 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.800 I'm trying to I'm paying bills, I'm trying to survive, Like. 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.920 Well, that helped me be richer and more successful, right, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.600 because they're pursuing a different path. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.120 So you were saying that actually tapping into this alternate 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:33.600 reality has benefits in the material world as well. 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.440 Of course it does. Yeah, we started this conversation off 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.440 by talking about well, capitalism and consciousness. You know, I 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.880 don't always see how those things could fit together back then, 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.240 you know, I remember that you read the Hermann Hesse 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.360 book Sa Dartha. Yes, so he did it backwards. Most 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.600 people come to the spirituality later. He came to it 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.000 at the beginning. But then he took what he had 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.720 learned and he could apply it in the in the 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.480 material world, so to speak, and it helped him be better. 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.200 It helped him make him wealthy because he kind of 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.040 had his interior together, which made it easier. But a 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.560 lot of times people are not interested in the interior 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.680 part because they feel like, well, I don't see how 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.520 that's going to help me in my day to day 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:22.040 pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power, whatever. But those things, ultimately, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.680 what people will discover when they get those they don't 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.640 really make them happy. What makes people happy ultimately is love. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:36.160 And having that connection to other people, to ourselves, and 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.320 to the larger universe that we're part of. It's not 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.840 that money or fame or power are bad things. It's 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.520 just that most people get addicted to them if they 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.080 pursue them, and then they forget about, like said Dartha 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.200 did in his book, He forgot about. Oh I forgot 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.200 as he got deeper in the material plane, he got 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.520 lost in it. So I think people that are dedicating 0:16:55.520 --> 0:17:00.280 their lives to making money or pursuing some thing in 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.119 the material plane, that's what their whole life is devoted to, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.479 they will find when if they when they get it, 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.480 that it's not really what they want it all along. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.000 And so if you can do these things together, you 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.160 pursue your own interior spirituality, your own interior growth as 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.000 a person, the spiritual part of you is that develops 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.560 and opens and awakens. Then you're going to appreciate the 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:31.480 external world even more because it's beautiful. But most people 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.440 don't even notice it's beautiful because they're locked in their 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.360 heads or locked in their own egos, and so they're 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.760 trapped there to a certain extent. But once you can 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.000 begin to break out or help that ego. Get that's 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.280 all I like to say. The ego is a It 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.240 should be a servant, not the master. And once you 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.399 get the ego kind of where it needs to be 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.240 and not driving the car but in the back seat, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.200 then you're in a position to have it all, which 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.560 is to be to achieve the success that you want 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.240 to lie while having the relationships that you want, while 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.439 having your own spiritual joy, because that's what it is. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.080 As you awaken to that part of your being, you 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.040 experience a lot more love and joy, and those give 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:13.520 our soul's satisfaction. 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:18.199 I was reflecting on this recently, this idea that the 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.520 material world has always made it about the pursuit of 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.520 and having certain things as being the goal of life 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.440 or as being the success of life. And I was 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.840 reflecting on how spiritually, especially in Eastern traditions, whether you 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.879 have something or you don't. I need money, fame, power, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.639 control is actually irrelevant. It's whether you have freedom from envy, 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:46.399 freedom from ego, freedom from anger, freedom from lust, freedom 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.440 from illusion. Because you could have everything in the world 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.960 and be envious and feel like you don't have anything. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.160 I've been fortunate to know several billionaires, for example, where 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.560 they have, you know, everything that could possibly want in 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:05.840 the material plane, but they're comparing themselves to people that 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:10.800 are even more successful, richer, and they feel like somehoart 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.640 of their life's not complete. And it's like, you can 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.840 have anything you want materially, and it's your envy that's 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:18.760 making you unhappy. 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:19.159 Correct. 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.600 What I found it to be a very useful habit 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:27.280 is is when my friends or anyone has prosperity and success, 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.879 for me to be truly happy for them rather than 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.480 feel envious of them. I feel like envy is a 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.680 very insidious trap that spoils the joy of life. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.040 Absolutely, and I always say to people, you need that 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.760 the choice to envy people who study them, and if 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.120 you envy them, then you don't get anywhere. But when 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.080 you study them, you have the opportunity to. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.240 I like that a lot. I'm gonna take that's a 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:51.280 takeaway for me today. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.919 Thank you, please do it. Yeah. Absolutely, I focused on 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.760 that heavily because I always reflected on I was in 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.040 the same way as you appreciate others, admiring others. But 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.399 I saw the KEYPOP was studying them and wanting to 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.760 learn from them, And all of a sudden you didn't 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.520 feel that they were that far away. You felt so 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.560 much closer to them and closer to that success for 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.400 yourself and that abundance for yourself. Going to your point 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.800 on ego death, I love that you use that language. 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.720 Could you describe what an ego death is for someone 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:22.679 who may be new to the idea or may not 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.880 be aware of how you're referring to it. 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.199 We're very attached to our ego. I mean, we in 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.040 fact think that's what we are. We believe we are 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.200 the ego. We believe we're a body and we're an ego. 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:36.560 And so the ego is the part of us that 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:42.720 feels like it's separate. Hey, I'm John, you're you. That's 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:47.680 a book, this is water, this is a microphone. These 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.159 are different than me. They're not me, And so we 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:57.680 have this great feeling of individuality and separateness. That is, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:04.280 it's so real to us that we think that's actually reality. 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:04.680 And so. 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.520 With the ego, death or a better way to put it, 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:14.320 because death's scary word, is a sort of your ego disappearing. 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.560 You don't have that sense of separation any longer. You 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:21.960 don't identify with your separation, and the metaphor I like 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.439