1 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: Hey, Kelly, we love physics on the podcast, don't we. 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: Yes, especially when it's not physics that's threatening the lives 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: of my children. 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 3: Yes. 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: And we're big fans of biology, of course, naturally, and 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: we agree that chemistry is not a science but actually 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: a torture device invented to ruin the lives of tenth 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: graders around the world. 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: Right, Well, it might be complicated. I mean, yes, chemistry 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: was the one class in college I got a B 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: plus in and I hated it and I still kind 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: of hate it. But like you know, food, chemistry, there's 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: it's complicated. 14 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: Wait are you a pro chemistryite? Is that what's happening here? 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: It's just it's not so black and white, That's what 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: I'm saying. 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I believe in drawing clear, bright 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: lines between the sciences. 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: You know. I think one of my favorite episodes that 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: we did was about whether or not we need to 22 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 2: thinking about biological questions at the level of physics. And 23 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: so I don't think I believe that you like to 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: draw black and white lines between topics. And I think 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: we both agree it's more fun when they kind of 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:29,639 Speaker 2: meld into one another. 27 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: No, you're right, all of science is a big, squishy endeavor, 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: but chemistry is on the other side of that line. 29 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, we hate chemistry. That's fine. Oh, kem, like 30 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: maybe the hardest thing I've ever done. Like, OKM, then childbirth. 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: You shouldn't do either of those without anesthetic. 32 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I'm Kelly. I got bees in chemistry, 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: and I met Rice University where I study parasites as 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: an adjunct. 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: And welcome to the podcast Daniel and Jorge explain in 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: the Universe, in which we talk about our love for 37 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: physics and the universe, and we try to avoid negging chemistry, 38 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: but it's unavoidable sometimes. 39 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, No, it makes you feel better too sometimes, 40 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: so you just need you've got to go for it. 41 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: I just like provoking those chemistry loving listeners, because you know, 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: I love your messages in my inbox, even if they're 43 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: angry rants about how wonderful chemistry is. Send them to me. 44 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 2: Out of all the fields that you probably don't want 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: to make people angry, and I think the chemists probably 46 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: have the most ways to like kill you in ways 47 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: that can't be tracked so. 48 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: Lately. I'm not sure this was well thought out in 49 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: the end, but we do want to hear from you. 50 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: We want to hear about your love for chemistry, your 51 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: love for physics, and also your questions about the nature 52 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: of the universe, because on this podcast, we believe that 53 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: everybody deserves to understand what we do and don't know 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: about the universe, to have it explained to them in 55 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: a way that's understandable, that clicks in their mind. And 56 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: so if you have a question about how the universe 57 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: works that you haven't heard a sufficient answer to, please 58 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: write to us to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. 59 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: You will always hear from us, even deep into the 60 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: far future when we're writing emails from caves in front 61 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: of the flickering fire because chemistry has destroyed the world. 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: We will still answer your questions. 63 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: That's right, nothing can stop us. 64 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: So today on the podcast we'll be answering listener questions 65 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: Fall Equinox Edition. We are happy to be back in 66 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: your ear holes talking about the mysteries of the universe 67 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: and specifically answering questions from listeners like you. 68 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: And we must be out of practice because otherwise we 69 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't have threatened the chemists. 70 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: Exactly. Good to shake off the rust a little bit. Wait, 71 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: rust is chemistry, isn't it? Anyway, Today we have a 72 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: question that's definitely about physics, but it's also about things 73 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: that are black and white. This is a question from 74 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: white about white holes. 75 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 3: Thank Daniel and hohe. I have a question about black holes. 76 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 3: I've heard of some theories about white holes existing, and 77 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: I was wondering where the white holes would get all 78 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: the stuff they were spewing out. Could it be possible 79 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: that somehow black holes in white house holes are connected. 80 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: If that is the case, and theoretically, is it possible 81 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: to escape a black hole? Thank you so much, Wyatt. 82 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: So I don't think that I've ever heard about a 83 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: white hole. But then you're gonna be like Kelly, you 84 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: forget you were on an entire episode where we spent 85 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: an hour talking about this, because my memory is really 86 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: really good. But often I think that in science sometimes 87 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: things don't have to be super analogous. But we're just like, well, 88 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: it would be kind of fun if I named it 89 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: this thing that I found something similar. So, yeah, tell 90 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: me about white holes and are they like the opposite 91 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: of a black hole, Like, what is the deal? 92 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, white holes are very confusing because they're not even 93 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: a very well defined concept like a black hole. At 94 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: least we know exactly what we're talking about, and we 95 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: know in general relativity it's a region in space where 96 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: things can fall in, but nothing can leave because space 97 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: is so twisted, so bent up, that every path forward 98 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: leads towards the center. The idea of a black hole 99 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: is not just that there's a very powerful force of gravity, 100 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: but that space itself is curved in such a way 101 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: that every path just leads towards the center. Right, it's 102 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: a real extreme version of general relativity. Really forces you 103 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: to think about things not in terms of gravity as 104 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: a force, but as the bending of space time changing 105 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: how things move. So that's what a black hole is. 106 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: A white hole is much more fuzzy. Some people in 107 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: gravitational theory and in quantum gravity say white holes don't 108 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: even exist. Their nonsense. So there's lots of disagreement about 109 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: what they are. But as you say, there's sort of 110 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: like an analogy that black holes. People ask like, well, 111 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: what about the opposite of a black hole? What would 112 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: that be like? And so a white hole is sort 113 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 1: of like, you know, take a black hole and flip 114 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: it through the mirror, what would it look like? And 115 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: that's what you get as a white hole. And so 116 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: a white hole in theory would be a region of 117 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: space where, instead of not being able to escape, nothing 118 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: can go in. Right, It's a place you can't enter, 119 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: So things can escape somehow if they're already there, but 120 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 1: nothing could go into a white hole. It's a place 121 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: in space where there are no paths to it, instead 122 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: of no paths out of it. 123 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: So it's like running into a wall, like with the 124 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: road Runner in Coyote. Is that like you just you 125 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: can't get in there. 126 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: It's not like there's a wall there that's preventing you. 127 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: You have to think about space as being curved and 128 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: there's just like no way to get there. It's not 129 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: like there's an obstacle between you and there. It's just 130 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: like no paths lead there. You have to try to 131 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: like Google map something, and it's like there is no route. 132 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: That's essentially this idea that there might be places in 133 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: space that are blocked off by the curvature so that 134 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: you can never even get there. Not that you can't escape, 135 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: but that you can never even get there, and they're 136 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: motivated by this sort of theoretical calculation that Roger Penrose did. 137 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: He thought about like the way space is organized around 138 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: a black hole, and he carves it up into these coordinates, 139 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: and there's the coordinates near the black hole and coordinates 140 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: in the black hole, and the way that he sort 141 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: of laid it out on a piece of paper, there's 142 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: like a blank spot. It suggests that there could be 143 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: a place in space where particles could go from there, 144 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: but because of the shape of the event horizon near 145 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: a black hole, they could never get in there. And 146 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: so it's sort of conceptually trying to like cross the 147 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: T or dot the I to say like, well, if 148 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: it's here on the piece of paper, maybe it also 149 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: actually exists out there in the universe. 150 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: And so the thing that would be keeping you from 151 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: getting there is that like some force is pulling you 152 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: too hard for you to be able to move into 153 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: that space. Is that the mmm? 154 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, exactly. So imagine, for example, there's a white 155 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: hole somewhere in space and you have a laser and 156 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: you shoot your laser at the white hole and you think, well, 157 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: why can't my photon go into the white hole. Well, 158 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: the reason it's a white hole is that space is 159 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: curved around it, and so if you try to shoot 160 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: your laser at the white hole, you'll find that it 161 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: doesn't go in. It bends through curved space and goes 162 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: in another direction. The same way, for example, if you 163 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: shoot a laser beam near a black hole, it can 164 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: bend around the black hole and go in some other direction. Right, 165 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: we know that curved space can change the path of 166 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: photons than any other particle, right, that's what curved space does. 167 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: That's why curved space is so awesome, because it can 168 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: even change the path of photons, which have no mass, 169 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: they technically feel no gravity. But that's why it's important 170 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: to think about gravity as curvature of space, changing the 171 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: path of particles that flow through it. So, now, just 172 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: arrange space to have curvature so that no matter what 173 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: direction you shoot a photon from, it basically glances off. 174 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: It's like the perfect armor you have, like space as 175 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: a shield, so that anything that comes near you just 176 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: pick ricochets off and goes in another direction. It's not 177 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: like a wall there. It's not a force, it's the 178 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: curvature of space itself. That you've ranged in this way 179 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: that photon glance off and go in another direction. 180 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: What would you need to have for that to happen? 181 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 2: By making sense, how would that come about? 182 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're perfectly making sense, And nobody really knows the 183 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: answer to that question because it's not really a solid 184 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: theoretical concept. Nobody knows how a white hole could form. 185 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: There's this theory that if there was a black hole 186 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: which had existed forever, an eternal black hole, not one 187 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: that was created. We we have, like a star that 188 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: collapses and forms a black hole, but a black hole 189 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: which it somehow existed forever, even though we think the 190 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: universe has a finite age in general relativity imagined somehow 191 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: an infinitely old universe that doesn't have a big bang 192 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,479 Speaker 1: in the heart of it. So you could have eternal 193 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: black holes. These things somehow would also have white holes 194 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: attached to them, And that's essentially what why it is 195 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: asking about. Somehow, if you have an eternal black hole 196 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: formed in such a way that it's always existed, right 197 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: so I guess, not formed just like exists, then it 198 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: naturally has a region of space which is also a 199 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: white hole. So we don't know how to make one. 200 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: But if an eternal black hole existed, then the theory 201 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: suggests they would also be a paired with it, a 202 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: white hole, and the two are connected. So the singularity 203 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: of the black holes connected to the edge of this 204 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: white hole in such a way that things that fall 205 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: into the black hole could come out the white hole. 206 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: But only if the black hole always existed. 207 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: Only if the black hole always existed. So we don't 208 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: know how to make this, but it is compatible with 209 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: general relativity. It's very similar situation to the other mind 210 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: bending concept in general relativity of wormholes. Wormholes are the 211 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: connection between two points in space. The idea that like, 212 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: all right, I'm here and I want to be an 213 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: Alpha centauri, but I don't want to fly through four 214 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: light years of space to get there, because the speed 215 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: of light means that would take forever. What if instead 216 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: of flying through space, there was just like a connection 217 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: between my spot in space and their spot in space, 218 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: so I could just like step through a portal to 219 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: go from here to there. That's allowed in general relativity. 220 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: That's called a wormhole. 221 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: I think one of my biggest disappointments with physics, or 222 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: maybe physicists, is that you all haven't figured that out yet, 223 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: because those wormholes would be great, and I. 224 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: Want to get to Wyatt's question about white holes, but 225 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Okay, we're back and 226 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: we're answering listener questions about black holes and white holes 227 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: and wormholes and all the holes that they make in 228 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: your brain. 229 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: I just finished reading auror U by Kim Stanley Robinson, 230 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 2: and I think interplanetary travel would be super cool but 231 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: probably will mostly just kill people unless we can figure 232 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: out something like the wormholes. So anyway, get on it please. 233 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: Heck, I even want wormholes for like going to work 234 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: or going to the grocery store. Like imagine you don't 235 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: need a shopping cart and then load it into your car, 236 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: and then unload it from your car and load in 237 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: your fridge. You could just stand at your fridge, open 238 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: a wormhole to the grocery store and just take stuff 239 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: off the shelf directly into your fridge. 240 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: Theft would be a much bigger problem in a world 241 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: with that technology. 242 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: That's an engineering challenge once we figure out the physics. 243 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: But yes, wormholes are definitely something we aspire to, and 244 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: the amazing thing is that they're not ruled out in 245 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: general relativity they are allowed, but again we don't know 246 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: how to make them. We can say that a wormhole 247 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: can exist in the universe general relativity doesn't forbid it, 248 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: but we don't know how to go from a universe 249 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: without a wormhole to a universe with a wormhole and 250 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: still follow all the laws of general relativity. It's like saying, oh, yes, 251 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: that house would hold itself up. We have no idea 252 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: how to construct it, so it also holds itself up 253 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: while it's half built. Right. We don't have a path 254 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: to go from a no wormhole universe to a wormhole universe, 255 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: and in the same way, we don't know how to 256 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: go from a universe without a white hole black hole 257 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: pair connected by a wormhole to a universe that has one. 258 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: We can say if it exists in the universe and 259 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: has always existed somehow weirdly in a way that makes 260 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: no sense, then that's fine with the laws of physics, 261 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: But we don't know how to go from not having 262 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: one to having one. How to basically build a white hole? 263 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: Ugh uugh is all I could think. 264 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: This is complicated. 265 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: Let's imagine a white hole does exist out there. What 266 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: would you see that would make you be like, oh 267 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: my gosh, we actually found one, and would it be 268 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 2: something emerging? Like you put your laser out there, the 269 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: laser goes around the bend of space time, but then 270 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: a laser comes back out through the spot that you 271 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: tried to get it into but it couldn't and then 272 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: you were like, whoa something came out of the white hole. 273 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: That would be evidence if you saw something like that. 274 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a pretty good short version of it. Let's 275 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: unpack it a little bit. Like one way to discover 276 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: a white hole is to see evidence of a place 277 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: in space that nothing can enter. The same way we 278 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: look for a black hole as a region of space 279 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: that's emitting no light, no radiation. We know this tremendous curvature, 280 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: but we don't know what's there, and it's not glowing 281 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: in any way. And so that's how we forget, example, 282 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: discovered black holes near the center of the galaxy. We 283 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: see things zooming by, so we know there's a lot 284 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: of mass in a very small space, but we can't 285 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: actually see anything. In the same way, we might discover 286 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: white hole by finding some location in space where weirdly 287 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: photons get bent around it. The more direct evidence would 288 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: be a place in space that's emitting light with no 289 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: other explanation. Right, if laser beams are shooting out of 290 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: some place in space and there's no known origin for it, 291 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: that's like a great analogy to you know, laser beams 292 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: are being eaten by this black hole. So if laser 293 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: beams are just being generated by space, that would be 294 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: really fascinating clue about white holes. The problem is though, 295 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: that we don't know that white holes would have to 296 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: generate radiation, right, Like, the thing about a white hole 297 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: is that nothing can enter it, but that also means 298 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: that nothing has to leave it, right, Things can leave it, 299 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: but they will only leave the white hole if they're 300 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: in there. So you could have like a white hole 301 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: that's empty. Nothing can enter it, and so things could 302 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: leave it if they were there, but there's nothing in there, 303 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: so it's basic invisible. And so it's possible to have 304 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: white holes that are like quiet that don't emit anything. 305 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: But if you have a white hole that's connected to 306 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: a black hole, and I think this is why it's questioned 307 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: if black holes and white holes are connected, then stuff 308 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: could fall into the black hole and be connected to 309 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: the white hole. And come out the other side of 310 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: the white hole, and that would be basically like a wormhole. 311 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: But if you one directional right, you couldn't go back 312 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: in the white hole. So you take that trip to 313 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: Alpha Centauri, you're in Alpha Centauri unless there's another black 314 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: hole white hole pair going the other direction. 315 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: And when you get to Alpha Centauri, are you still spaghettified. 316 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole lot more to figure out there 317 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: from an engineering perspective, because these wormholes are a minuscule 318 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, they're particle sized, and so to make them 319 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: larger requires all sorts of exotic technology. We definitely do 320 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,479 Speaker 1: not have like particles that radiate energy, negative mass particles 321 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: that essentially expand space the way dark energy does. We 322 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: don't know if that's possible at all. And as you 323 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: approach the mouth of this black hole, you would still 324 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: be spagetified. So in order to be safe, you'd want 325 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: the black hole to be really, really large, because larger 326 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: black holes have weaker tidal forces near their edge. So 327 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot to figure out before you're willing to 328 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: send your kids to the store using a black hole 329 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: white hole pair, for sure, But in principle it is 330 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: theoretically possible, but again, we don't know how to build it, 331 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: so it's really a ways off. And it might turn out, 332 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: in a fuller understanding of gravity that the thing makes 333 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: no sense at all, that white holes don't exist. It 334 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: might just be a feature of our classical theory of 335 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:35,479 Speaker 1: general relativity. 336 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: Oh, physics, you're so crazy. 337 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: The thing I love about this question is that it highlights, like, 338 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: really how little we understand about the basic nature of 339 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: space and time. You know, Newton thought about space and 340 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: time is absolute and infinite, just like the backdrop of 341 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: the universe. But we now know that it's more interesting 342 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: than that. We know that space can twist and ripple 343 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: and curve and expand and do all sorts of funny things, 344 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: but we still don't really understand what space is. We 345 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: know that our current theory general relativity has got to 346 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: be incomplete, and it's got all these wacko predictions, some 347 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: of which come true, like black holes, and other things 348 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: like singularities inside black holes we're pretty sure are wrong, 349 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: and the other weird features like white holes were like, man, 350 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: that is bonkers. Let's figure this all out. But in 351 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: one hundred years or five hundred years, when we have 352 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: figured this all out, people are going to look back 353 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: and think, wow, we really didn't understand anything back in 354 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. 355 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: So the good news is that there's lots of job 356 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: security in physics because there's lots of work left to do. 357 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: It turns out the universe is a pretty big puzzle. 358 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: So thank you very much. Why to write again with 359 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: your particular question about physics. We want to hear from 360 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: all of you forever and deep into the infinite future. 361 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: If you have questions about the nature of the universe, 362 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: please write to us two questions at Danielanjorney dot com. 363 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: But just to wrap up why, the answer is, white 364 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: holes are a very fuzzy theoretical concept, not even every 365 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 1: theorist that thinks that they make sense theoretically. But if 366 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: they do exist, and they have always existed in the universe, 367 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: then it's possible that they are connections between black holes 368 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: and white holes, and that you could go into a 369 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: black hole and emerge from a white hole. But Kelly 370 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: would have to sign off on a permission slip telling 371 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: you that it's safe. First. 372 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 2: I'm only signing off on my kids' permission slips. Everybody 373 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: else can make their own decisions. I'm only holding back 374 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: my children from exploring the universe. 375 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: You don't feel some sort of in loco parentis obligation 376 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: as a podcast host. 377 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: Hosting a podcast doesn't make me feel like I have 378 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: any obligations whatsoever. But I do feel like I need 379 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: to let my kids make their own choices eventually, but 380 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: not yet. 381 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: All right, everybody you heard that you're on your own, 382 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: make your own decisions. All we can do is advise you. 383 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: That means you can't sue us. 384 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: That's really what it means, Yes, chemists or not, you 385 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: can't sue us. Well. Thanks very much for joining us 386 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: on this black and white episode about drawing boundaries between 387 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: regions in space. Thank you Why for running in, Thank 388 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: you Kelly for joining me, and thanks everybody for thinking 389 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: about the universe. 390 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: Thanks Daniel. 391 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: Tune in next time for more science and curiosity. Come 392 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: find us on social media, where we answer questions and 393 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Insta, and now TikTok. 394 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain 395 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 396 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever 397 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.