1 00:00:01,340 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,510 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson. 3 00:00:14,690 --> 00:00:19,110 Speaker 1: And I'm Holly Frey. We talked about Montague Summers this week. 4 00:00:19,150 --> 00:00:21,689 Speaker 1: We sure did. I think it might have been last 5 00:00:21,790 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: October that I finally went, I think I need to 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,090 Speaker 1: do a podcast about this guy. And at that point, 7 00:00:29,150 --> 00:00:31,710 Speaker 1: it was too late in October to have him be 8 00:00:31,750 --> 00:00:34,930 Speaker 1: part of the October season. But he seemed like such 9 00:00:34,950 --> 00:00:38,210 Speaker 1: a good fit for the October season that I wanted 10 00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:41,409 Speaker 1: to save him. I did not know any of the 11 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:46,030 Speaker 1: stuff about the Order of Carinia or the Society for 12 00:00:46,330 --> 00:00:49,930 Speaker 1: Sex Psychology Research, whatever the order of that was. I 13 00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:52,510 Speaker 1: knew none of that when I put him on the list. 14 00:00:52,850 --> 00:00:55,430 Speaker 1: It was a surprise to me as I did my research. 15 00:00:56,190 --> 00:00:59,130 Speaker 1: Something I didn't put in the outline. is that he 16 00:00:59,210 --> 00:01:03,670 Speaker 1: apparently loved dogs. I mean, who doesn't? Yeah. One account 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: said that he was buried with a coat belonging to 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,060 Speaker 1: one of his dogs. He also at one point had 19 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: a dog named Cornelius Agrippa, who was named for Cornelius 20 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,980 Speaker 1: Agrippa von Nettenheim, who I should have just put a 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,090 Speaker 1: little biographical sketch of right there before I came into 22 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:27,870 Speaker 1: the studio, but I did not. I... There were a 23 00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: number of very fun descriptions of him in the research 24 00:01:34,180 --> 00:01:36,620 Speaker 1: that I just, there was not really space to put 25 00:01:36,740 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: all of them into the episode, so I have them now. 26 00:01:41,140 --> 00:01:45,530 Speaker 1: One is by Frederick S. Frank, who wrote an introduction 27 00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: to Montague Summers' A Bibliographical Portrait, which who described Montague 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:58,140 Speaker 1: Summers as eliciting strong opinions for his, quote, bizarre scholarship 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: and still more bizarre biography, which I found amusing. The other, 30 00:02:06,470 --> 00:02:10,829 Speaker 1: I have access to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography 31 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:14,070 Speaker 1: through a library that I have a library card to. 32 00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:18,070 Speaker 1: At any time that we're talking about anybody from Britain 33 00:02:18,310 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: or places connected to Britain, I go look there to 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,019 Speaker 1: see if there's an entry and often there is. And 35 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,980 Speaker 1: sometimes I get the sense that the entry was written 36 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:31,910 Speaker 1: a long time ago and I'm getting a lot of 37 00:02:31,970 --> 00:02:37,730 Speaker 1: like carryover of kind of archaic language. And then sometimes 38 00:02:37,770 --> 00:02:40,250 Speaker 1: there's ones like this one, which this I feel like 39 00:02:40,310 --> 00:02:45,010 Speaker 1: is a newer edition. But There's also this sort of 40 00:02:45,150 --> 00:02:49,550 Speaker 1: random aside where whoever wrote the Oxford Dictionary of National 41 00:02:49,590 --> 00:02:55,010 Speaker 1: Biography entry for Montague Summers compared him to the Widow Twankie. 42 00:02:55,810 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: And that is a character from the pantomime of Aladdin. 43 00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:03,540 Speaker 1: The Widow Twankie is Aladdin's mother, who is a laundress 44 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,540 Speaker 1: and is usually played by a man in women's clothes. 45 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,290 Speaker 1: And I was just like, this choice of description... Seems 46 00:03:12,330 --> 00:03:15,330 Speaker 1: like it is conveying a lot of meaning, but also 47 00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:17,230 Speaker 1: meaning I had to go look up because I don't 48 00:03:17,270 --> 00:03:20,150 Speaker 1: know who the widow twanky is. I just want to 49 00:03:20,190 --> 00:03:22,670 Speaker 1: name a pet that now. It's such a good phrase. 50 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:25,230 Speaker 1: It is a good phrase. But then I was like, 51 00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:28,950 Speaker 1: I felt like it was intended to sort of add 52 00:03:29,050 --> 00:03:32,970 Speaker 1: some layers to him in a way that wasn't really 53 00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:38,310 Speaker 1: necessary in what's usually a pretty straightforward biography. Yeah. Anyway, 54 00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:41,190 Speaker 1: it was both amusing and a little like, what an 55 00:03:41,290 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: odd thing to include. I love it. Yeah, me too, honestly. 56 00:03:50,180 --> 00:03:55,940 Speaker 1: I had an interesting moment. Okay. Where I realized a 57 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: very silly connection between Montague Summers and another episode that 58 00:04:00,780 --> 00:04:03,330 Speaker 1: we've done that I bet you would never guess in 59 00:04:03,350 --> 00:04:06,870 Speaker 1: a million years. Oh, I'm excited. I'm excited. That Sewell 60 00:04:06,970 --> 00:04:11,610 Speaker 1: description of him talks about him being in the reading 61 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:17,570 Speaker 1: room of the British Museum in 1927, which means that 62 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:24,670 Speaker 1: he overlaps with Mike the Cat. I figured it out 63 00:04:24,730 --> 00:04:27,350 Speaker 1: during your pause there that this was going to be 64 00:04:27,370 --> 00:04:29,930 Speaker 1: about Mike the Cat. Everything's always about Mike the Cat. 65 00:04:30,490 --> 00:04:33,030 Speaker 1: I don't know how he felt about cats, although I 66 00:04:33,089 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: do know that he liked cats. Well, since Mike the 67 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:40,230 Speaker 1: Cat apparently didn't like very many people, probably he didn't 68 00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:45,210 Speaker 1: feel great about it. Maybe Montague Summers was the one 69 00:04:45,350 --> 00:04:48,830 Speaker 1: cat whisperer who Mike the Cat was okay with. Well, 70 00:04:48,850 --> 00:04:51,500 Speaker 1: he had... Several, as you may or may not recall. 71 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: He had an Egyptologist that he loved that was like 72 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: clearly his caretaker. And at least two of the guards 73 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: at the exterior gate who would make him dinner every night. Yeah. 74 00:05:02,180 --> 00:05:04,260 Speaker 1: And he liked those people. He did not like women 75 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: at all. And most, I don't think he liked much 76 00:05:06,980 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: of anybody outside of those three people. Yeah. So Mike 77 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: the Cat, if folks are like, what are you two 78 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: talking about? Is it an episode? It was about historical 79 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: cats and dogs. Am I remembering correctly? I think just cats. 80 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:22,210 Speaker 1: Just cats? Historical cats? Was that three upbeat cats? Was 81 00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:26,010 Speaker 1: that that one? Maybe. Yeah. Mike the Cat was a 82 00:05:26,050 --> 00:05:29,630 Speaker 1: stray cat that got taken in and guarded the British 83 00:05:29,650 --> 00:05:33,810 Speaker 1: Museum from 1908 to 1929. He lived to a ripe 84 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,580 Speaker 1: old age. Yeah. I have a tattoo of Mike the Cat. 85 00:05:38,589 --> 00:05:40,390 Speaker 1: I knew you said you were gonna, but I did 86 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,700 Speaker 1: not remember that you had done it. Oh, yeah. I 87 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,700 Speaker 1: got it. It's one of my favorite tattoos of all 88 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,659 Speaker 1: of mine that I have, as well as my tattoo artist, 89 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,410 Speaker 1: because he just turned out beautiful. And there are only 90 00:05:50,470 --> 00:05:53,270 Speaker 1: two photographs of Mike the Cat, and they're both pretty spectacular. 91 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:54,950 Speaker 1: And it's the one where he looks like he's yelling. 92 00:05:55,630 --> 00:05:57,430 Speaker 1: And I just love it. And then I feel like 93 00:05:57,510 --> 00:06:01,970 Speaker 1: in getting that tattoo... I accidentally manifested our cat, Jezzy, 94 00:06:01,990 --> 00:06:04,809 Speaker 1: because she looks a lot like Mike the Cat. Oh, fun. 95 00:06:04,890 --> 00:06:07,970 Speaker 1: Has a bit of a personality about her and is 96 00:06:08,050 --> 00:06:10,770 Speaker 1: very loud. Like, she likes to talk and yell a lot, 97 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:14,380 Speaker 1: even when she's very happy. Yeah, yeah. So my tattoo 98 00:06:14,420 --> 00:06:15,900 Speaker 1: is Mike the Cat, but there have been people who 99 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: are like, is that Jezzy? And I'm like, kind of. 100 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,900 Speaker 1: Now it is. Now it is. Now it's always Mike. 101 00:06:22,580 --> 00:06:25,250 Speaker 1: But I just love that. I also, I will say, 102 00:06:25,260 --> 00:06:31,089 Speaker 1: you know, I understand... Somebody like Montague Summers, who clearly 103 00:06:31,170 --> 00:06:36,410 Speaker 1: seems to be very bright, definitely with an artistic bent. 104 00:06:37,410 --> 00:06:39,390 Speaker 1: I get why he would have an affinity for the 105 00:06:39,430 --> 00:06:43,930 Speaker 1: Catholic Church, right? Like, it's so associated with incredible art 106 00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:51,130 Speaker 1: and really, really beautiful symbolism and ritualism. You know, I mean, 107 00:06:51,150 --> 00:06:53,029 Speaker 1: all you have to do is like walk into St. 108 00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: Peter's Cathedral or Sagrada Familia and like, you're instantly blown 109 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,180 Speaker 1: away by the sort of art and aesthetics of that religion. 110 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,020 Speaker 1: So I 100% get why he was into it. Him 111 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:12,110 Speaker 1: wearing purple socks to go with the calendar, like chef's kiss, 112 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:17,450 Speaker 1: Montague Summers. I get it and I see you. I, 113 00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:20,570 Speaker 1: very late in the research when I was trying to 114 00:07:20,630 --> 00:07:23,630 Speaker 1: just confirm a few details, I found some things that 115 00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:29,810 Speaker 1: were sort of about More of his theology, which was 116 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:33,410 Speaker 1: stuff that I was like, I don't have the cultural 117 00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:36,610 Speaker 1: framework or the religious framework to even be able to 118 00:07:36,630 --> 00:07:42,410 Speaker 1: understand the terminology that you're using. And it seems like 119 00:07:42,610 --> 00:07:45,270 Speaker 1: it would have been a whole other layer to the 120 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: podcast that was probably also not going to make sense 121 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:52,820 Speaker 1: to a lot of people in the audience. So I 122 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:55,860 Speaker 1: did not go try to learn all of it because 123 00:07:56,940 --> 00:07:59,970 Speaker 1: I felt like it was a whole different world from 124 00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:05,770 Speaker 1: the Protestant, specifically United Methodist Church that I was raised in. 125 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:08,170 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't even know what these terms mean. 126 00:08:08,290 --> 00:08:11,780 Speaker 1: It's terms about very specific worldviews within Catholicism. And I 127 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: was like, I don't even know what this is. I 128 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,260 Speaker 1: also feel like when we got to the end and 129 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:21,700 Speaker 1: how he died and how basically everything that he had 130 00:08:22,290 --> 00:08:25,030 Speaker 1: went to somebody who was described as his like companion 131 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:28,470 Speaker 1: and personal secretary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like body servant 132 00:08:28,590 --> 00:08:33,990 Speaker 1: or whatever. It reminded me of the meme that I 133 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: hate so much that's about how historians be like, these 134 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: are just gal pals. And I'm like, what do you 135 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: mean by historians here? I think what you might actually 136 00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:45,620 Speaker 1: mean is your high school history teacher from 1984. Because 137 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:50,140 Speaker 1: there's a whole field of like queer history that's older 138 00:08:50,179 --> 00:08:53,910 Speaker 1: than I am. That is all about exploring these kinds 139 00:08:54,010 --> 00:09:00,660 Speaker 1: of lives and how these questions of identity and relationships 140 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:05,020 Speaker 1: have evolved over history and what that has meant. And, like, 141 00:09:05,059 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: in terms of this, we just... I don't have any 142 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: other details other than, like, these two or three descriptions 143 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,170 Speaker 1: that are all very bland. And it's like, maybe they 144 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:21,579 Speaker 1: were partners. Maybe... Montague Summers was incredibly grateful for this 145 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: person that spent the last years of his life living 146 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,460 Speaker 1: with him, doing all of this work for him, and 147 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,179 Speaker 1: was like, I want that to be rewarded. And it's 148 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,569 Speaker 1: hard to know that for sure. I feel like we've 149 00:09:32,610 --> 00:09:37,230 Speaker 1: had some sort of similar, especially people who toward the 150 00:09:37,330 --> 00:09:39,710 Speaker 1: end of their lives were living in a way that 151 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:43,050 Speaker 1: was pretty isolated. Maybe they had become disabled and had 152 00:09:43,090 --> 00:09:45,420 Speaker 1: someone who was caring for them, and then they left 153 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:49,620 Speaker 1: all of their possessions to that person. But we don't 154 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,620 Speaker 1: really know beyond what was written down there, which is 155 00:09:55,230 --> 00:10:00,750 Speaker 1: that this person, his biggest bequest was to this one person. Yeah. 156 00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:04,670 Speaker 1: Although I will say, not to be argumentative, but there 157 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,220 Speaker 1: have been a lot of historians throughout time who have 158 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: been like, no, no, clearly not that. There have also 159 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:15,740 Speaker 1: been historians studying sexuality, sexual identity, you know, all of that. 160 00:10:15,820 --> 00:10:18,740 Speaker 1: I just, like you said, I think... Well, we got 161 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,819 Speaker 1: to talk about like when that historian was writing because 162 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,750 Speaker 1: I have for sure read 19th century historians writing about 163 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,410 Speaker 1: somebody from the 18th century who a 21st century historian 164 00:10:32,910 --> 00:10:36,590 Speaker 1: would have a totally different read on their relationships and 165 00:10:36,610 --> 00:10:40,850 Speaker 1: their sexuality. I think the problem is that historians never, 166 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:44,950 Speaker 1: you know, just the word historians can be diced up 167 00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:47,770 Speaker 1: in many ways. A lot of ways. I think a 168 00:10:47,809 --> 00:10:50,810 Speaker 1: lot of people that throw that meme around, like, there's 169 00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:56,660 Speaker 1: not real historians that are the root of it. It's really, like... It's, again, like... 170 00:10:58,290 --> 00:11:01,730 Speaker 1: I think there are, though, some real historians, though, that 171 00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:04,689 Speaker 1: their own bias has led them to be like, no way, 172 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: they were just pals. Yeah, I find the meme to 173 00:11:08,179 --> 00:11:12,620 Speaker 1: be incredibly disrespectful to the incredibly many queer historians that 174 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: there are, and it frustrates me every time I see it. 175 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,060 Speaker 1: I don't think I take memes seriously enough to find, 176 00:11:17,420 --> 00:11:22,630 Speaker 1: unless they're just blatantly cruel or spreading a falsehood. I'm like, meh, 177 00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:37,500 Speaker 1: it's some kid on the internet, I'm fine. Yeah. We 178 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: talked about Beelink's bells and Edward Moore this week. Yes. 179 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: The silliest Halloween topic of all time, perhaps. It was 180 00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:47,660 Speaker 1: so silly. I loved it so much. We don't get 181 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: to talk about things that are that silly that often. 182 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,270 Speaker 1: They're just goofy. Yeah. Delightfully goofy. One thing that is 183 00:11:55,309 --> 00:11:58,870 Speaker 1: very funny to me that came up really in the 184 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: Montague Summers episode... is how bickery the Society for Psychical 185 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,620 Speaker 1: Research is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've always known, 186 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: but it just came up in both of these episodes 187 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:13,990 Speaker 1: that people are like writing letters back and forth arguing. 188 00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:16,589 Speaker 1: What amazes me about it every time I look at 189 00:12:16,670 --> 00:12:19,510 Speaker 1: one of those is that it's not, the camps don't 190 00:12:19,570 --> 00:12:21,630 Speaker 1: divide evenly. Do you know what I mean? It's not 191 00:12:21,690 --> 00:12:24,109 Speaker 1: like the people who believe are over here and the 192 00:12:24,130 --> 00:12:27,630 Speaker 1: people that don't believe are over here. Within those two groups, 193 00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:31,350 Speaker 1: there's a lot of arguing, and there's nobody that, like, 194 00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:33,770 Speaker 1: is always on one side of the equation or the other, 195 00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:36,100 Speaker 1: which is fascinating to me. Yeah, there were definitely people 196 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: who were wanting to use science to disprove claims of 197 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: the paranormal, but there were also people who wanted to 198 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,780 Speaker 1: use science to prove that they were real. And, yeah, 199 00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: that's fundamentally incompatible. There's also, like, the Podmore thing that 200 00:12:53,059 --> 00:12:56,810 Speaker 1: we quoted in this episode... His take, and I haven't 201 00:12:56,830 --> 00:12:58,609 Speaker 1: done enough research on him to say if this is 202 00:12:58,630 --> 00:13:02,390 Speaker 1: definitive or if this is how he habitually operated, was 203 00:13:02,429 --> 00:13:06,809 Speaker 1: kind of like, we have to identify the fake stuff 204 00:13:07,570 --> 00:13:09,829 Speaker 1: because that is the only way we can make any 205 00:13:09,850 --> 00:13:14,260 Speaker 1: of the genuinely unexplainable things worthy of talking about or examining. 206 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: Because otherwise, like, we're lumping a bunch of garbage in 207 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: together with things that might really merit our intellectual time, 208 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:24,650 Speaker 1: which is just interesting. Mm-hmm. The other thing that just 209 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:27,809 Speaker 1: fascinated me about Edward Moore, on the one hand, I 210 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:30,610 Speaker 1: said it in the episode, like to be retired at 211 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:34,570 Speaker 1: 35 with all of your, you know, financial needs essentially 212 00:13:34,650 --> 00:13:38,729 Speaker 1: met sounds terrific. But I also later as we were recording, 213 00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:40,340 Speaker 1: it occurred to me like, yeah, but he traded his 214 00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:43,460 Speaker 1: childhood for that. Sure. Yeah. Because he was really young 215 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,420 Speaker 1: when he joined. Eleven. Yeah. Eleven. And then 12 when 216 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,969 Speaker 1: he shipped off. to India like no kid at that 217 00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:54,190 Speaker 1: age no matter what era you have lived in is 218 00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:56,050 Speaker 1: really going to be prepared for that kind of thing 219 00:13:56,530 --> 00:14:00,010 Speaker 1: although he apparently flourished and was great at languages so 220 00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:06,130 Speaker 1: I also would like to make a motion that when 221 00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:08,900 Speaker 1: you tell someone something and they don't believe it we 222 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: should all just adopt the phrase I keep no monkey 223 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:17,220 Speaker 1: as a way to defend yourself yeah I keep no 224 00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:20,980 Speaker 1: monkey I'm never going to not find that funny. Like, 225 00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: just that that was a question that had to be answered. Yeah, yeah. 226 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: The bells. Yeah. The bells. I will say, if this is, 227 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:37,910 Speaker 1: as more modern scholars, skeptics, etc., have said, kind of 228 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:44,010 Speaker 1: a satirical hoax perpetrated by Moore. Mm-hmm. It worked in 229 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:46,450 Speaker 1: that it did point out how many people were so 230 00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:49,090 Speaker 1: ready to come forward and be like, the same thing 231 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: happened to me. Which I kind of love. He just 232 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: collected all of these wacky stories. And it kind of 233 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,380 Speaker 1: seems like he's trying to make a case in the 234 00:14:58,420 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: book because he connects them all. The way he weaves 235 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,970 Speaker 1: narrative is interesting to me. Like he gives them instead 236 00:15:04,990 --> 00:15:09,290 Speaker 1: of chapter numbers, like they're almost like numbered like pieces 237 00:15:09,330 --> 00:15:11,690 Speaker 1: of evidence. It sounds like he's trying to make the case. 238 00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:16,530 Speaker 1: if you believe he's not being satirical, that clearly there 239 00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:21,090 Speaker 1: is some entity that's just bell crazy in England at 240 00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: the time. But he never quite walks you right to 241 00:15:24,630 --> 00:15:28,980 Speaker 1: that explanation. He just shows you a lot of bell happenings, 242 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: which is interesting to me. I don't know. Oh, Edward Moore. Yeah. 243 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:38,350 Speaker 1: I can easily see how if he did mean it 244 00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:42,450 Speaker 1: as a satire, people were just... eating it up as 245 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:46,540 Speaker 1: a legitimate thing. Yeah. In part because we're living in 246 00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,780 Speaker 1: an era where ridiculous things happen that seem like they 247 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,810 Speaker 1: should be satire, but they are real things that are happening. Yeah, 248 00:15:54,890 --> 00:16:00,470 Speaker 1: and I mean, also, some of that, I find myself questioning, like, okay, 249 00:16:00,510 --> 00:16:04,370 Speaker 1: if you want to do satire... That's cool, but part 250 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:07,430 Speaker 1: of the problem is that you are trading on a 251 00:16:07,510 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: reputation and a name of reliability that you've built. Oh, sure. Right? Like, 252 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: he was so respected as a member of the Royal Society. 253 00:16:16,060 --> 00:16:19,420 Speaker 1: He was believed to be an expert on, you know, 254 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:23,010 Speaker 1: the culture of India. Like, he was... I'm trying to 255 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:28,130 Speaker 1: think of, like, somebody at that level... In our modern 256 00:16:28,190 --> 00:16:30,150 Speaker 1: culture that's known as a, you know, it would be 257 00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:33,950 Speaker 1: like if a scientific Nobel laureate was suddenly like, did 258 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:36,370 Speaker 1: I tell y'all I have ghosts? Like, maybe like, wait 259 00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:40,410 Speaker 1: a minute. You know, I, I, that's part of it 260 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:43,380 Speaker 1: is that if he's trying to do this as a satire, 261 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:47,500 Speaker 1: he may have miscalculated his ability to land a satire 262 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,460 Speaker 1: based on his reputation. Right. Sure. Sure. Or for people 263 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: to perceive it as a satire based on his reputation. Yeah. Yeah. 264 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,420 Speaker 1: Not about the bells. While I totally understand that this 265 00:16:59,460 --> 00:17:02,900 Speaker 1: was filtered through his own perceptions and his own experience, 266 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: I really like the idea that he was like, I 267 00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: don't understand some of the conversations that I'm having because 268 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:14,220 Speaker 1: I don't know this religious symbolism or I don't have 269 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:17,909 Speaker 1: this cultural context. And so he started writing it out 270 00:17:17,970 --> 00:17:21,330 Speaker 1: for himself. Yeah. To understand it better. I thought that 271 00:17:21,369 --> 00:17:24,619 Speaker 1: was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. There have definitely been times, 272 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: even simple times of moving from North Carolina and Georgia 273 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,590 Speaker 1: to Massachusetts where I've been like, wow, I don't understand 274 00:17:32,609 --> 00:17:36,510 Speaker 1: what's happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does 275 00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: offer up, it gives you an insight into the way 276 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,170 Speaker 1: his mind worked. And why he probably was better than 277 00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:45,950 Speaker 1: a lot of other people within the East India Company 278 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,380 Speaker 1: at like, I don't know that integrating is the right word, 279 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: but just interacting with locals and understanding them and being 280 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: able to communicate with them, making the effort to learn 281 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: their language. Yeah, he was like, he was recognizing that 282 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: he didn't have the cultural context. And so he tried 283 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: to get it to make it better. Yeah, which is interesting. 284 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,659 Speaker 1: Like I said, there are examinations still of his Hindu 285 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:11,810 Speaker 1: pantheon work and like how much of it is still 286 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,530 Speaker 1: worthwhile information to communicate to people that may not understand 287 00:18:15,650 --> 00:18:19,550 Speaker 1: it versus the parts that are maybe not as well 288 00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:23,510 Speaker 1: understood and might be communicated incorrectly. But it's very interesting 289 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:25,850 Speaker 1: and you can find the images from it online. He 290 00:18:25,890 --> 00:18:28,270 Speaker 1: basically like he had collected all of this imagery while 291 00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:31,250 Speaker 1: he lived there. And then when he was preparing the book, 292 00:18:31,550 --> 00:18:36,370 Speaker 1: I think he had engravers do. replicas of them to 293 00:18:36,510 --> 00:18:38,570 Speaker 1: go to print for the book. So there's a lot 294 00:18:38,609 --> 00:18:42,409 Speaker 1: of imagery in it that people in Europe had never 295 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:46,010 Speaker 1: seen before that book came out, which is kind of interesting. Again, 296 00:18:46,050 --> 00:18:48,130 Speaker 1: that gets into the problem of like a person not 297 00:18:48,170 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: from a culture explaining that culture to somebody else. But 298 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: it is just a fascinating work. And it does, as 299 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: you said, like the idea of like, I don't understand this. 300 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,060 Speaker 1: How can I learn this instead of making assumptions? That's 301 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:09,020 Speaker 1: respectable for sure. Mm-hmm. It's Halloween. I realized after we 302 00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: recorded last week's behind the scenes that at some point 303 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:14,460 Speaker 1: I think I thought that was our last Halloween episode, 304 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: which it obviously wasn't, where I'm like, everybody go trick-or-treat. 305 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:24,619 Speaker 1: Now everybody go trick-or-treat. If you're gonna. I'll say that 306 00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:27,020 Speaker 1: we've had a lot of stuff going on and a 307 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,740 Speaker 1: lot of travel and more disorienting travel than normal, I 308 00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: feel like. And so I... Do not fault you in 309 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: any way for being confused about when the episode is 310 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,260 Speaker 1: going to come out. I mean, to be fair, like 311 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: once we're in the Halloween court or every day is 312 00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:43,850 Speaker 1: trick or treat day in my book. But now it 313 00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:46,450 Speaker 1: really is Halloween time. I hope this season has been 314 00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:48,869 Speaker 1: good to everybody. I hope that you have if you 315 00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:50,969 Speaker 1: are a Halloween person. like me, I feel like I've 316 00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: been a little soft on my Halloween celebrating this year. 317 00:19:53,390 --> 00:19:54,649 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can kick it up here 318 00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:56,340 Speaker 1: in the last couple of days or not, but just 319 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,130 Speaker 1: because we've been super busy, sometimes life happens, life be lifin'. 320 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: If you have been celebrating at whatever level is your 321 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,980 Speaker 1: jam or not celebrating, maybe you just don't want to 322 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,270 Speaker 1: mess with it. That's fine too. I hope that everything 323 00:20:10,330 --> 00:20:13,430 Speaker 1: that you have been putting your mind and energies to 324 00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: has been enjoyable, fruitful, if that's what you desire. And 325 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: that you're also giving yourself time to rest and that 326 00:20:19,859 --> 00:20:21,859 Speaker 1: you're also giving grace to other people because we all 327 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,580 Speaker 1: needed a whole bunch right now. And honestly, like that, 328 00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: I have just realized in recent life that that can 329 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,950 Speaker 1: solve more problems than trying to barrel through them. a 330 00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:33,930 Speaker 1: little bit of grace goes a very long way but 331 00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:36,790 Speaker 1: we are very grateful for you and hope that you 332 00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:39,369 Speaker 1: are taking time to rest and recharge celebrate whatever you 333 00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:42,730 Speaker 1: wish in whatever way makes you feel happy and is 334 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,220 Speaker 1: kind to others we will be right back here on 335 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:49,700 Speaker 1: monday with a brand new episode and if you'd like 336 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,340 Speaker 1: to trick or treat old-fashioned style we'll have a classic 337 00:20:52,380 --> 00:21:00,160 Speaker 1: for you on halloween Stuff You Missed in History Class 338 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,350 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 339 00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:08,060 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 340 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:08,980 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.