WEBVTT - The Problem With Ads Part Two 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:12.399 Get in technology with tech Stuff from half stuff dot com. Hayle, 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.640 and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:20.280 Joining me again today is Ben Bolin. Then, Hey, thanks 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.880 for having me back for the second part of our 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.799 series on targeted advertising. I didn't know if you were 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.240 going to do a like a mid season switch like that, Like, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:36.400 how what was it previously on stuff? Right? Ben? You ignorant? No, 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.879 no it's not. First of all, Ben and I have 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.760 been sitting into this room for like an hour and 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.640 a half now. Um, we recorded that very long episode 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.320 which we broke up in half. You probably heard the 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:50.880 part one of it. If you haven't, go and listen 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:52.600 to it, because we're gonna pick up right where we 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.200 left off for part two, and we're really going to 0:00:55.280 --> 0:01:00.200 talk about lots of stuff, including the problems with malware 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:05.720 and ads and just some other general thoughts about targeted advertising, 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.680 ad blockers and how can we fix the advertising system 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:16.520 that's out there online so that everyone actually gets something 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.559 of value out of it, and we you know, spoiler alert, 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.720 we don't have all the answers yet, So enjoy the 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.759 second half and I'll see you on the other side 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.800 of this episode for the outro that I've already recorded. 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.520 When this was originally gonna be one episode. This is 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.080 like weird, this is this is strange. We're outside of 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.840 time and space right now. Let's let's listen to to 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.720 past us talk about stuff. So one of the other 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.160 things I wanted to bring up, so not all people 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:49.680 who design ad blockers necessarily feel great about it either. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.480 That's another another element. So we've got like the publishers, 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.840 some of the publishers and authors admitting to the use 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.400 of ad blockers despite the fact that they're business model 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.440 depends at least in part on advertising revenues. That's complicated. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.360 But then you also have ad blockers who start to 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.919 feel that perhaps what they're doing might be more might 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:17.280 be doing more harm than good of this. Yeah. Marco 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.160 Armant who created an ad blocker for the iOS store 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.800 for the for iPhones. Uh. It was one of several 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.880 ad blocker apps that became available as soon as Apple 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.160 allowed for that in the app store. It's very popular. 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:33.560 It got downloaded by a lot of people. It was 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.600 a pay app, so you had to actually purchase it, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:43.119 and after essentially like a weekend of thinking about it, 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.200 he began to reconsider the fact that he had made 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.680 and made available this app and decided to remove it 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.799 from the app Store and offered refunds to anyone who 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.760 had purchased it up to that point. And he said 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:01.320 the reason for it was that while he advertising still 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.200 is kind of broken online or at least is not 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.840 a ideal experience for most people, it ultimately could really 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.160 hurt small businesses that really depend on that web advertising. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.760 And if that, if that avenue of revenue is gone, 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.600 those businesses could go away. He says. Once I start 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:26.840 thinking about something I made could literally put a person 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.320 out of business, it changed things for me and I 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.640 could not let that be something I had contributed to 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:40.440 a Yeah, so, um, you know he decided. He says 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:42.480 that specifically says, I've learned over the last few crazy 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.000 days that I don't feel good making one and being 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.440 the arbiter of what's blocked making one being an ad blocker. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.720 Ad blockers come with an important asterisk. While they do 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.600 benefit a ton of people in major ways, they also 0:03:55.680 --> 0:04:00.800 hurt some, including many who don't deserve the hit. And um, 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.000 there's an article and Wired which again Wired is one 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:05.680 of those companies that says Hey, we know, if you're 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.040 watching using an ad blocker, would you consider possibly turning 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.280 it off while you're here? You can still visit our website. 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.640 I mean, what are we Forbes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.200 down the snark No, but we're gonna get back to 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.320 former just because I gotta I gotta talk about that. So, 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.800 um so whyed you know they say, like, this is 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.520 how we make money, you can police consider turning it off. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.040 It worked for me. I turned it off because the 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:34.760 ads I come across unwired don't tend to be obnoxious 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:39.919 or intrusive or take away my experience. They don't completely 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.120 cloud my view of whatever it is I'm looking at. Um. 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.279 They are responsible with their advertising and I I respect that. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.680 So anyway, Wired has this article about our ment and 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.800 his experience, and one of the things they point out 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.160 is that ad blockers are too blunt of an instrument, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.800 meaning they punish everyone equally. They punish the people who 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.880 are running tons of ads on their page with very 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.160 little content. I'm sure you've come across one of those 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.120 in the past, where like, is there anything here that's 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.719 not an ad? They punish those where you would argue 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.080 it's very there's very little value for your visit. But 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:26.120 they also punish the upstanding folks who are just they're 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.880 doing their best to make a living doing what they love, 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.760 but they find it very difficult because of this hit 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.480 they're taking with AD revenue. Um, so yeah, very interesting. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.120 Now they get back to Forbes. Forbes has this approach 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:41.960 where if they detect an AD blocker, they say turn 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.680 it off or you're not going any further right, uh, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.760 And they even say, hey, if you turn it off, 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.440 you can have thirty days to experience the ad light 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.480 experience with Forbes. And I thought, you know what, that's fair. 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.320 I will I will see what this ad light experiences. 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.000 Maybe it's gonna be like wired, and I'm going to 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.480 have a pleasant experience. I turn off my ad lugger, 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.320 I go on in and the first thing that happens 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.680 is a float over pop up window playing video automatically 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.680 scrolls over what I'm trying to read. And I think 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.200 this is ad light. What does ADD heavy look like? 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.400 Add heavy? They send someone to your house and they're 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.920 just like, hey, I couldn't help, but notice you don't 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.159 have rugs over here, and uh, we'd like to sell 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.080 you some rucks and we're right outside. It's only gonna 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.680 take like, uh minutes to one hour for me to 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.159 tell you about all these rugs. And you hear the sound. Yeah, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.800 you close the door and all you hear listen, you 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:41.600 close the door. But I'm still here, and I'm gonna 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.000 talk about the rugs through your door for the next 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.960 five minutes. You can't block this ad I mean, it's good. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.480 It's It's a good point though, because if the ad 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.760 light experience is still intrusive, then what is the difference? 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.240 Is it again, a hierarchy of types? Yeah, and that's 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.279 a good question. I don't know the answer to. I mean, 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.719 it's and and I know I'm slamming Forbes a bit 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.560 with this discussion, but I under again, I understand the 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.840 position they're in. It's not like I don't appreciate that, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.520 of course I do. I just feel like the whole 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:22.560 approach to ads online has been broken since day one, 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.840 and one of the things I keep hoping for is 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:31.760 that the ad block issue will force companies, including really 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:36.080 advertising companies, into coming up with ways where advertising works. 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:41.360 Not that we're advertising sneaks in that's not working. That 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.440 just creates more resentment. You've got to find a way 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.960 to make it work, or you have to find a 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.960 different way to make money. So you could go the 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.560 route of like a paywall that some sites have gone to, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.000 where you have to pay to get access to the 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.360 full site, or you could go with something like a 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.080 Patreon approach where you develop a loyal audience and then 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.600 you say, hey, I love making the stuff for you. 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.440 I hope you love the stuff that I'm making. It's 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.960 a model, right, help me make the stuff you love 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.720 by giving me a little bit of money each month 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.040 that will cover my costs and I can keep doing this, 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.720 and I can give you some perks. Yeah, and there's 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.600 somewhere it will be parks as well. And honestly, I 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.160 I I'm a Patreon for like three or four different 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.880 things recurring monthly, and in every case I don't care 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.800 about the perks. The perks were not the reason why 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.280 I did it. I did it because I appreciated and 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.520 respected the content I was getting and I wanted to 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.880 support the stuff I love. And I'm in a position 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.720 where I can afford to do that. Obviously, not everyone is, 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.320 and in fact, there's some people out there. Tom Merritt 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.600 great example, Tom Merritt stand up guy does the daily 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:58.960 tech news show Amazing program, and he says, look, I 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.000 get it. Some of you. You know your your every 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.880 dollar counts and I totally understand that, and I appreciate 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.480 that you listen to so thank you. You are just 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.040 as important to me. But for people who can afford 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.839 to maybe throw a dollar or five dollars a month 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.480 to help me produce the show, uh do that. And 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.040 the more people who do, the more shows I can produce. 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.040 I can go to six days a week, which is 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.000 what he's trying to do right now. The stuff too 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.920 higher production value. You get what you get what you 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.680 people exactly and it and again it keeps the show 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.160 ad free, so uh, you know, he might have a 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.040 sponsor for an episode or two, but generally speaking, the 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.600 shows are pretty much had free um, which is very 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.400 refreshing compared to some other shows online where you're like, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.480 they've been talking about this ad for three minutes, remember 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.120 how do you? And this goes to other video as 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.520 well that's not necessarily personality driven. Do you remember the 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.920 uproar that Hulu created when people would pay for a 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.800 subscription what was it nine ten dollars or whatever paper 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:09.160 a subscription that also still had ads in the video. 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.960 People were saying, why am I paying to watch to 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.319 watch these ads? I thought that the paying was so 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.360 that I wouldn't have to watch ads anymore. Hulu also 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.920 has the AD blocker detector, so that says, like, you 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.559 have an AD blocker on, you want to watch an episode, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.079 turn it off. We are unable to provide the ad 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.760 viewing experience due to your applock. You can wait him out, though, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.920 you can play the poker game with them the screen 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.040 long enough and it starts to play. Yes, doesn't really. Yeah, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.520 if you just leave it alone long enough because I'm busy, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.480 I would have it on in the background or something, 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.080 you just like suddenly you just hear like an episode 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:56.240 of a Sudden And to be honest, it frightened me 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:03.400 and my cat. Yeah. Uh, it's It's strange though, when 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:08.320 we see these different strategies used to address targeted advertising, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.600 I have a question for you regarding this. So one 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:17.520 of the big concerns of privacy advocates is that targeted 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:23.280 advertising takes this user, uh, this user generated data, and 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:29.319 builds a profile off of that we have in the past, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.480 or you have specifically on tech Stuff explored the search 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:36.600 bubble that that past results predict what you were shown 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.000 when you ask a question, and it's supposed to be 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:45.920 stuff that rather than the objective truth. The more of 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.560 a profile you build, the more likely that you're going 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.880 to find it's going to give you stuff that it 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.320 thinks you like. It's essentially a stepping stone to the 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.880 semantic web, where the web anticipates what you want and 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.320 gives you your version of what it is you. Uh. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.559 The downside of that being that you could create an 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.400 Internet version of the Echo Chamber and you only see 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.160 the stuff that reinforces what you already think absolutely. And 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.040 I think that this is I think the dangerous thing 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:20.400 about targeted advertising like that is, especially because it is 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.719 automated and it's based on this precedent set. What can 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:31.160 happen is that eventually, through some error in the code, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.840 through some misinterpreted series of visits to some other website, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:42.559 it could just decide that Jonathan Strickland must like diapers, 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.600 and because he hasn't bought them yet, is only an 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:53.600 indication that Jonathan Strickland needs more advertisements for diapers until 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.959 he gets it, And that that can happen that can 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.520 happen to people. So I, um, you know, one of 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.319 the most I think you used this example before, one 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.840 of the most in my mind, egregious examples of how 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:16.120 to do targeted advertising in the worst possible way is Facebook. Yeah. Yeah, Facebook. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:17.920 The way it works is that you'll end up seeing 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.920 stuff inserted into your feed that can end up being 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.720 kind of creepy, especially, like you said, if it's something 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.120 that pops up where it's related to a search that 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.120 you did when you weren't even part of Facebook in 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:35.000 the first place. Yeah, you get these promoted uh entries 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.120 into your feed that looked like the same sort of 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.080 stuff that a friend might have left, but it wasn't 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.080 left by any of your friends. It was just left 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.680 by your friends at Facebook and whatever advertising agency they're 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.679 working with. And then, of course there's all the stuff 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.800 that appears in the right rail that looks like it's 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:55.000 news articles but it's not. It's more advertising. Um. And 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.559 and in fact, all of the clickbait stuff that shows 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.199 up on Facebook. Not that this is Facebook's fault, but 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.560 a lot of the clickbait stuff that ends up getting 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.400 shared to Facebook and then re shared by tons of 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.560 people who aren't necessarily thinking critically, it's really just thinly 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:15.480 veiled advertorial content, or it links to a site that 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:20.080 has ridiculous advertising space on it, and it's a tiny 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.480 bit of content. And also, you know, this goes to 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.760 a bigger thing. This is the first instance in human 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.960 civilization of the capability to block advertisement, right, so it's 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.200 something that we forget. We tried a very daunting and 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.640 ambitious task on stuff they don't want you to know. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.920 My co host Matt and Nolan I said, you know what, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.480 let's pick a day and let's count every advertisement we 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.200 see from waking to sleep. None of us could do 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.400 it successfully because our day to day physical lives are 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.600 so embedded with advertising already to your point, you know, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.600 and it makes me wonder, what if there were some 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.800 sort of physical analog to that, would people do it? 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.880 I think the answer is, of course, because people want 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:18.120 to feel like they're not being continually pitched to, right, 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.480 and in fact we've um you know, this kind of 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.800 brings us the whole idea about privacy and and using 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.040 an ad blocker to protect yourself, and then the counter 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.920 to ad blockers, where you you get the ad blocker 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.600 detectors essentially what they're detecting, by the way, is they're 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.000 just saying was the ad served to the browser? And 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.560 if the answer is no, then the assumption is the 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.720 person has an ad blocker program running on their machine. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.200 That leads us to the discussion in Europe where there 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:53.040 is this, uh, this ongoing battle about whether or not 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.040 ad blocker detectors are in fact illegal or um at 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:03.600 least violating a policy about privacy. Uh. And it's it's 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:09.040 a pretty interesting and weird kind of um uh story. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.600 So there's a guy named Alexander Haunt who has put 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:18.640 forth this argument saying that because a website is capable 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.720 of telling you have an ad blocker on it, that 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:27.680 violates your sense of privacy, therefore is illegal to have 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:34.520 an ad blocker detector on a service. Uh. And ad 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.160 blockers should not be punished or there should not be 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.160 this this detection system. Uh. And it was because of 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:47.760 a pretty broad reading of the the European privacy law, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:53.480 which says that that a company cannot record information about 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.400 you without your consent. And the argument was that is 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.880 the ad blocker is the detection of that is that 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:05.080 actually recording information about a person? Because if so, then 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.760 there should first pop up a little message saying, this 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.800 website wants to find out if you're using an ad blocker, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:16.480 do you allow it to do so? Uh? And it 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.959 gets really to a question of practicality, like does the 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.280 Internet work in such a way that it would be 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:29.240 possible to implement a policy that's akin to that or 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.679 would it just mean that we have to rethink the 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.520 way these laws are framed because they don't take into 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.680 account the way the Internet works, and because of that, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:46.000 they are passing laws that are hm counter productive or 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.040 in some cases just would never work. They'd be they'd 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.800 be unenforceable, and they would be they would just cause 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:57.320 a massive mess um. And so that's an ongoing discussion 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.000 as we're recording this podcast that has not been decide 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.160 did yet, but there are arguments on both sides about 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:07.440 whether or not these ad block or detectors are against 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.359 the law or if they're totally illegal, and if if 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.160 they are legal, that people can that a company can say, hey, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.520 turn your ad blocker off. Yeah, you know, you vandal 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.800 physigoth trying to think of trying to think of European 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.720 marauders at this point, you're viking um and uh, and 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.399 so it's that's an interesting thing to see. Now. We 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.720 don't have anything like that in the US because privacy 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.840 is something we long since give up on. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.480 we're still doing the song and dance every so often. Uh, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.560 you know, it's it's one of those we we make 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:46.639 hallmark card level statements about privacy republic sphere. And I 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.560 guess I guess the really the place to kind of 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.600 end this discussion. The really the kicker, the reason why 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.359 it would be very difficult for me to argue with 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.880 any sincerity against someone's to vision to use an ad 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.560 blocker is the safety issue, the malware issue. So earlier 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:11.560 this year, UM, there was a story about how this uh, 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:16.879 this malware group managed to infiltrate advertising companies that served 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:22.119 ads two places like uh, the BBC and other major 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.880 outlets like MSN, a O L like the New York Times. Yeah, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:32.440 these are huge outlets that are to have advertising on them. 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.520 And what the malware designers had done was they had 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.920 injected malware into ads that were being served on these 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.639 so they didn't have to they didn't have to hack 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.080 into the New York Times or the BBC. They had 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:50.199 to hack into the actual advertising server and insert some 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.200 malware and disguise it really well so it's not easy 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.080 to pick out. That malware gets served up as if 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.280 it's a legitimate ad, and then it could convince one 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:05.320 to install some code that ends up encrypting their hard drive. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.159 This is called ransomware. So this is when, uh, you 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.160 get a message out of the blue and it says, hey, 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.400 guess what, sucker, your computer is encrypted, and we've got 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.080 an encryption key and we'll sell it to you. So 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:20.679 you've got to pay us and we'll give you the 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:22.479 key so that you can get back into your computer. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.640 If you don't pay us at such and such a time, 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.360 we will destroy your encryption key and your computer will 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.080 permanently be encrypted. And there's nothing you can do about it. 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.760 Ha ha ha. It's essentially the way the message goes 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.040 and and so your your computer is held hostage and 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.400 unless you pay for it, then you're kind of stuck. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.360 And because it was it was the malware attacks were 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:54.359 coming from these major trusted outlets. That's a huge problem, right, 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.840 It's not like it's not like the people were going to, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.800 you know, some back alley website that has already got 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:06.280 a terrible reputation like freeze an x and adderall dot biz. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.840 Yeah exactly. They were going to the New York Times 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.679 for goodness six and so uh, if you have an 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.879 ad blocker, it blocks that stuff because it identifies it 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.040 as an AD and you never get it, so you 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.359 are safe from that kind of a malware attack. So 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.000 it's very difficult to argue, hey, ad blockers are wrong 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.960 when people who don't use them are potentially going to 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.920 fall victim to this ransomware attack. And this was a 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.959 very specific incident. It's not necessarily ever going to repeat, 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.320 or it may not repeat on a scale as large 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.800 as it did before. But it drives home that fact 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.440 that ad blockers are not just for people who are 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.479 tired of being sold to. It's for people who are like, no, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:52.359 I want to be able to surf the web, like 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:54.840 I'm very careful with the way I surf the web. 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.080 I want to make sure that I don't get hit 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.520 by something despite how careful I am. And I'm getting 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.640 it from what I thought was a trusted source. Um, 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:09.360 so you know, it's it's hard to make any kind 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.520 of argument against that. In fact, one of the things 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.080 I read about was about Forbes being one of those 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:17.480 sites that you go to Forbes dot com and you 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:18.919 get the message, hey, you need to turn off your 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:20.520 ad blocker if you want to have access to it. 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:26.000 But Forbes was also victim to a ransomware attack, which 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:27.600 means that you know, you're like, well, I want to 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:29.600 read that thing on Forbes, but then you make yourself 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:34.200 vulnerable to being attacked by malware. Great work they do, 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:36.080 and that's the thing is that you know, we're again 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.199 it sounds like we're really bashing on Forbes, uh, but 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.119 it's largely due to the problem with advertising, not the 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.199 problem that Forbes wants to get paid. I totally respect that, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.560 of course, and I know I've said it multiple times, 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:50.400 but I just want to drive that home is that 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.479 as someone who I make a living off this, I 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.920 want to continue to do so. And part of that 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:58.960 means that I have to be you know that my 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.600 work is going up pages that have advertising served against it, 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:04.600 and I want those pages to do well, and I 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:08.240 want those advertisers to do well. But it requires that 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.760 we have an advertising system that works and that isn't 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:16.879 predatory or damaging. And currently we're still trying to we 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:21.640 as a species are still trying to find what that 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.680 thing is. We're we're kind of in a pioneering wild 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:31.359 West state right now. Well, and it's weird because advertising 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.679 has been around for ages. Ages. Some of the earliest 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:40.840 advertising actually goes back to Greco Roman times. Did you 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:45.360 hear about this? There were so? Well, I might actually 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:47.400 I think you you know what I'm gonna say. So, 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.440 are you talking about houses of ill repute? Yes? Archaeologists 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:56.199 found that prostitutes would wear sandals with arrows imprinted in 0:23:56.280 --> 0:24:00.439 the soul of the sandal, so that they would a 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.399 series of arrows as they walked to as you so 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.639 fittingly put at the house of ill repute. Advertising is ancient. 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:13.000 I can do you one better than that. Pompeii, the 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:18.879 city of Pompeii. They're still paving stones and Pompeii that 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:26.920 have the image of a fallus raised raised like it's 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.000 actually carved in the stone like a relief. Yeah, pointing 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:36.359 in the direction of the brothels and and if you 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:41.200 get the tour guide I get for Pompeii, he delights 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:43.879 in pointing all of them out and explaining this and 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:49.879 uses the pronunciation of peose pose has a peose on it. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:51.720 I don't know if you're doing me one better though, 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.280 because these are just these are clearly like it sounds 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:58.920