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Speaker 1: Get in technology with tech Stuff from half stuff dot com. Hayle,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: Joining me again today is Ben Bolin. Then, Hey, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me back for the second part of our

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Speaker 1: series on targeted advertising. I didn't know if you were

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Speaker 1: going to do a like a mid season switch like that, Like,

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Speaker 1: how what was it previously on stuff? Right? Ben? You ignorant? No,

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Speaker 1: no it's not. First of all, Ben and I have

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Speaker 1: been sitting into this room for like an hour and

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Speaker 1: a half now. Um, we recorded that very long episode

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Speaker 1: which we broke up in half. You probably heard the

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Speaker 1: part one of it. If you haven't, go and listen

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Speaker 1: to it, because we're gonna pick up right where we

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Speaker 1: left off for part two, and we're really going to

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Speaker 1: talk about lots of stuff, including the problems with malware

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Speaker 1: and ads and just some other general thoughts about targeted advertising,

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Speaker 1: ad blockers and how can we fix the advertising system

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Speaker 1: that's out there online so that everyone actually gets something

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Speaker 1: of value out of it, and we you know, spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: we don't have all the answers yet, So enjoy the

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Speaker 1: second half and I'll see you on the other side

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Speaker 1: of this episode for the outro that I've already recorded.

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Speaker 1: When this was originally gonna be one episode. This is

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Speaker 1: like weird, this is this is strange. We're outside of

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Speaker 1: time and space right now. Let's let's listen to to

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Speaker 1: past us talk about stuff. So one of the other

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Speaker 1: things I wanted to bring up, so not all people

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Speaker 1: who design ad blockers necessarily feel great about it either.

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Speaker 1: That's another another element. So we've got like the publishers,

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Speaker 1: some of the publishers and authors admitting to the use

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Speaker 1: of ad blockers despite the fact that they're business model

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Speaker 1: depends at least in part on advertising revenues. That's complicated.

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Speaker 1: But then you also have ad blockers who start to

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Speaker 1: feel that perhaps what they're doing might be more might

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Speaker 1: be doing more harm than good of this. Yeah. Marco

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Speaker 1: Armant who created an ad blocker for the iOS store

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Speaker 1: for the for iPhones. Uh. It was one of several

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Speaker 1: ad blocker apps that became available as soon as Apple

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Speaker 1: allowed for that in the app store. It's very popular.

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Speaker 1: It got downloaded by a lot of people. It was

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Speaker 1: a pay app, so you had to actually purchase it,

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Speaker 1: and after essentially like a weekend of thinking about it,

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Speaker 1: he began to reconsider the fact that he had made

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Speaker 1: and made available this app and decided to remove it

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Speaker 1: from the app Store and offered refunds to anyone who

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Speaker 1: had purchased it up to that point. And he said

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Speaker 1: the reason for it was that while he advertising still

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Speaker 1: is kind of broken online or at least is not

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Speaker 1: a ideal experience for most people, it ultimately could really

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Speaker 1: hurt small businesses that really depend on that web advertising.

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Speaker 1: And if that, if that avenue of revenue is gone,

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Speaker 1: those businesses could go away. He says. Once I start

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Speaker 1: thinking about something I made could literally put a person

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Speaker 1: out of business, it changed things for me and I

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Speaker 1: could not let that be something I had contributed to

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Speaker 1: a Yeah, so, um, you know he decided. He says

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Speaker 1: that specifically says, I've learned over the last few crazy

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Speaker 1: days that I don't feel good making one and being

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Speaker 1: the arbiter of what's blocked making one being an ad blocker.

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Speaker 1: Ad blockers come with an important asterisk. While they do

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Speaker 1: benefit a ton of people in major ways, they also

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Speaker 1: hurt some, including many who don't deserve the hit. And um,

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Speaker 1: there's an article and Wired which again Wired is one

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Speaker 1: of those companies that says Hey, we know, if you're

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Speaker 1: watching using an ad blocker, would you consider possibly turning

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Speaker 1: it off while you're here? You can still visit our website.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what are we Forbes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: down the snark No, but we're gonna get back to

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Speaker 1: former just because I gotta I gotta talk about that. So,

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Speaker 1: um so whyed you know they say, like, this is

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Speaker 1: how we make money, you can police consider turning it off.

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Speaker 1: It worked for me. I turned it off because the

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Speaker 1: ads I come across unwired don't tend to be obnoxious

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Speaker 1: or intrusive or take away my experience. They don't completely

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Speaker 1: cloud my view of whatever it is I'm looking at. Um.

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Speaker 1: They are responsible with their advertising and I I respect that.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Wired has this article about our ment and

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Speaker 1: his experience, and one of the things they point out

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Speaker 1: is that ad blockers are too blunt of an instrument,

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Speaker 1: meaning they punish everyone equally. They punish the people who

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Speaker 1: are running tons of ads on their page with very

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Speaker 1: little content. I'm sure you've come across one of those

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Speaker 1: in the past, where like, is there anything here that's

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Speaker 1: not an ad? They punish those where you would argue

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Speaker 1: it's very there's very little value for your visit. But

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Speaker 1: they also punish the upstanding folks who are just they're

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Speaker 1: doing their best to make a living doing what they love,

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Speaker 1: but they find it very difficult because of this hit

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Speaker 1: they're taking with AD revenue. Um, so yeah, very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Now they get back to Forbes. Forbes has this approach

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Speaker 1: where if they detect an AD blocker, they say turn

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Speaker 1: it off or you're not going any further right, uh,

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Speaker 1: And they even say, hey, if you turn it off,

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Speaker 1: you can have thirty days to experience the ad light

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Speaker 1: experience with Forbes. And I thought, you know what, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: I will I will see what this ad light experiences.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's gonna be like wired, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have a pleasant experience. I turn off my ad lugger,

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Speaker 1: I go on in and the first thing that happens

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Speaker 1: is a float over pop up window playing video automatically

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Speaker 1: scrolls over what I'm trying to read. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is ad light. What does ADD heavy look like?

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Speaker 1: Add heavy? They send someone to your house and they're

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Speaker 1: just like, hey, I couldn't help, but notice you don't

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Speaker 1: have rugs over here, and uh, we'd like to sell

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Speaker 1: you some rucks and we're right outside. It's only gonna

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Speaker 1: take like, uh minutes to one hour for me to

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Speaker 1: tell you about all these rugs. And you hear the sound. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you close the door and all you hear listen, you

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Speaker 1: close the door. But I'm still here, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about the rugs through your door for the next

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Speaker 1: five minutes. You can't block this ad I mean, it's good.

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Speaker 1: It's It's a good point though, because if the ad

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Speaker 1: light experience is still intrusive, then what is the difference?

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Speaker 1: Is it again, a hierarchy of types? Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: a good question. I don't know the answer to. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's and and I know I'm slamming Forbes a bit

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Speaker 1: with this discussion, but I under again, I understand the

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Speaker 1: position they're in. It's not like I don't appreciate that,

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Speaker 1: of course I do. I just feel like the whole

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Speaker 1: approach to ads online has been broken since day one,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I keep hoping for is

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Speaker 1: that the ad block issue will force companies, including really

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Speaker 1: advertising companies, into coming up with ways where advertising works.

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Speaker 1: Not that we're advertising sneaks in that's not working. That

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Speaker 1: just creates more resentment. You've got to find a way

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Speaker 1: to make it work, or you have to find a

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Speaker 1: different way to make money. So you could go the

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Speaker 1: route of like a paywall that some sites have gone to,

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Speaker 1: where you have to pay to get access to the

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Speaker 1: full site, or you could go with something like a

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Speaker 1: Patreon approach where you develop a loyal audience and then

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Speaker 1: you say, hey, I love making the stuff for you.

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Speaker 1: I hope you love the stuff that I'm making. It's

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Speaker 1: a model, right, help me make the stuff you love

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Speaker 1: by giving me a little bit of money each month

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Speaker 1: that will cover my costs and I can keep doing this,

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Speaker 1: and I can give you some perks. Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: somewhere it will be parks as well. And honestly, I

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Speaker 1: I I'm a Patreon for like three or four different

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Speaker 1: things recurring monthly, and in every case I don't care

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Speaker 1: about the perks. The perks were not the reason why

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Speaker 1: I did it. I did it because I appreciated and

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Speaker 1: respected the content I was getting and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: support the stuff I love. And I'm in a position

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Speaker 1: where I can afford to do that. Obviously, not everyone is,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, there's some people out there. Tom Merritt

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Speaker 1: great example, Tom Merritt stand up guy does the daily

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Speaker 1: tech news show Amazing program, and he says, look, I

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Speaker 1: get it. Some of you. You know your your every

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Speaker 1: dollar counts and I totally understand that, and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that you listen to so thank you. You are just

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Speaker 1: as important to me. But for people who can afford

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Speaker 1: to maybe throw a dollar or five dollars a month

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Speaker 1: to help me produce the show, uh do that. And

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Speaker 1: the more people who do, the more shows I can produce.

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Speaker 1: I can go to six days a week, which is

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Speaker 1: what he's trying to do right now. The stuff too

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Speaker 1: higher production value. You get what you get what you

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Speaker 1: people exactly and it and again it keeps the show

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Speaker 1: ad free, so uh, you know, he might have a

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Speaker 1: sponsor for an episode or two, but generally speaking, the

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Speaker 1: shows are pretty much had free um, which is very

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Speaker 1: refreshing compared to some other shows online where you're like,

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Speaker 1: they've been talking about this ad for three minutes, remember

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Speaker 1: how do you? And this goes to other video as

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Speaker 1: well that's not necessarily personality driven. Do you remember the

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Speaker 1: uproar that Hulu created when people would pay for a

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Speaker 1: subscription what was it nine ten dollars or whatever paper

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Speaker 1: a subscription that also still had ads in the video.

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Speaker 1: People were saying, why am I paying to watch to

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Speaker 1: watch these ads? I thought that the paying was so

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Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have to watch ads anymore. Hulu also

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Speaker 1: has the AD blocker detector, so that says, like, you

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Speaker 1: have an AD blocker on, you want to watch an episode,

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Speaker 1: turn it off. We are unable to provide the ad

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Speaker 1: viewing experience due to your applock. You can wait him out, though,

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Speaker 1: you can play the poker game with them the screen

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Speaker 1: long enough and it starts to play. Yes, doesn't really. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you just leave it alone long enough because I'm busy,

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Speaker 1: I would have it on in the background or something,

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Speaker 1: you just like suddenly you just hear like an episode

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Speaker 1: of a Sudden And to be honest, it frightened me

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Speaker 1: and my cat. Yeah. Uh, it's It's strange though, when

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Speaker 1: we see these different strategies used to address targeted advertising,

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Speaker 1: I have a question for you regarding this. So one

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Speaker 1: of the big concerns of privacy advocates is that targeted

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Speaker 1: advertising takes this user, uh, this user generated data, and

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Speaker 1: builds a profile off of that we have in the past,

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Speaker 1: or you have specifically on tech Stuff explored the search

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Speaker 1: bubble that that past results predict what you were shown

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Speaker 1: when you ask a question, and it's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: stuff that rather than the objective truth. The more of

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Speaker 1: a profile you build, the more likely that you're going

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Speaker 1: to find it's going to give you stuff that it

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Speaker 1: thinks you like. It's essentially a stepping stone to the

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Speaker 1: semantic web, where the web anticipates what you want and

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Speaker 1: gives you your version of what it is you. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The downside of that being that you could create an

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Speaker 1: Internet version of the Echo Chamber and you only see

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Speaker 1: the stuff that reinforces what you already think absolutely. And

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Speaker 1: I think that this is I think the dangerous thing

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Speaker 1: about targeted advertising like that is, especially because it is

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Speaker 1: automated and it's based on this precedent set. What can

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Speaker 1: happen is that eventually, through some error in the code,

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Speaker 1: through some misinterpreted series of visits to some other website,

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Speaker 1: it could just decide that Jonathan Strickland must like diapers,

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Speaker 1: and because he hasn't bought them yet, is only an

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Speaker 1: indication that Jonathan Strickland needs more advertisements for diapers until

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Speaker 1: he gets it, And that that can happen that can

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Speaker 1: happen to people. So I, um, you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the most I think you used this example before, one

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Speaker 1: of the most in my mind, egregious examples of how

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Speaker 1: to do targeted advertising in the worst possible way is Facebook. Yeah. Yeah, Facebook.

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Speaker 1: The way it works is that you'll end up seeing

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Speaker 1: stuff inserted into your feed that can end up being

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Speaker 1: kind of creepy, especially, like you said, if it's something

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Speaker 1: that pops up where it's related to a search that

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Speaker 1: you did when you weren't even part of Facebook in

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Speaker 1: the first place. Yeah, you get these promoted uh entries

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Speaker 1: stuff that a friend might have left, but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: left by any of your friends. It was just left

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Speaker 1: by your friends at Facebook and whatever advertising agency they're

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Speaker 1: working with. And then, of course there's all the stuff

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Speaker 1: that appears in the right rail that looks like it's

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Speaker 1: news articles but it's not. It's more advertising. Um. And

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Speaker 1: and in fact, all of the clickbait stuff that shows

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Speaker 1: up on Facebook. Not that this is Facebook's fault, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of the clickbait stuff that ends up getting

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Speaker 1: shared to Facebook and then re shared by tons of

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Speaker 1: people who aren't necessarily thinking critically, it's really just thinly

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Speaker 1: veiled advertorial content, or it links to a site that

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Speaker 1: has ridiculous advertising space on it, and it's a tiny

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Speaker 1: bit of content. And also, you know, this goes to

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Speaker 1: a bigger thing. This is the first instance in human

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Speaker 1: civilization of the capability to block advertisement, right, so it's

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Speaker 1: something that we forget. We tried a very daunting and

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Speaker 1: ambitious task on stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: My co host Matt and Nolan I said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: let's pick a day and let's count every advertisement we

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Speaker 1: see from waking to sleep. None of us could do

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Speaker 1: it successfully because our day to day physical lives are

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Speaker 1: so embedded with advertising already to your point, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it makes me wonder, what if there were some

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Speaker 1: sort of physical analog to that, would people do it?

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Speaker 1: I think the answer is, of course, because people want

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Speaker 1: to feel like they're not being continually pitched to, right,

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Speaker 1: and in fact we've um you know, this kind of

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Speaker 1: brings us the whole idea about privacy and and using

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Speaker 1: an ad blocker to protect yourself, and then the counter

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Speaker 1: to ad blockers, where you you get the ad blocker

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Speaker 1: detectors essentially what they're detecting, by the way, is they're

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Speaker 1: just saying was the ad served to the browser? And

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Speaker 1: if the answer is no, then the assumption is the

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Speaker 1: person has an ad blocker program running on their machine.

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Speaker 1: That leads us to the discussion in Europe where there

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Speaker 1: is this, uh, this ongoing battle about whether or not

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Speaker 1: ad blocker detectors are in fact illegal or um at

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Speaker 1: least violating a policy about privacy. Uh. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty interesting and weird kind of um uh story.

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Speaker 1: So there's a guy named Alexander Haunt who has put

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Speaker 1: forth this argument saying that because a website is capable

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Speaker 1: of telling you have an ad blocker on it, that

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Speaker 1: violates your sense of privacy, therefore is illegal to have

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Speaker 1: an ad blocker detector on a service. Uh. And ad

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Speaker 1: blockers should not be punished or there should not be

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Speaker 1: this this detection system. Uh. And it was because of

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Speaker 1: a pretty broad reading of the the European privacy law,

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Speaker 1: which says that that a company cannot record information about

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Speaker 1: you without your consent. And the argument was that is

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Speaker 1: the ad blocker is the detection of that is that

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Speaker 1: actually recording information about a person? Because if so, then

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Speaker 1: there should first pop up a little message saying, this

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Speaker 1: website wants to find out if you're using an ad blocker,

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Speaker 1: do you allow it to do so? Uh? And it

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Speaker 1: gets really to a question of practicality, like does the

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Speaker 1: Internet work in such a way that it would be

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Speaker 1: possible to implement a policy that's akin to that or

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Speaker 1: would it just mean that we have to rethink the

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Speaker 1: way these laws are framed because they don't take into

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Speaker 1: account the way the Internet works, and because of that,

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Speaker 1: they are passing laws that are hm counter productive or

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Speaker 1: in some cases just would never work. They'd be they'd

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Speaker 1: be unenforceable, and they would be they would just cause

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Speaker 1: a massive mess um. And so that's an ongoing discussion

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Speaker 1: as we're recording this podcast that has not been decide

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Speaker 1: did yet, but there are arguments on both sides about

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Speaker 1: whether or not these ad block or detectors are against

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Speaker 1: the law or if they're totally illegal, and if if

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Speaker 1: they are legal, that people can that a company can say, hey,

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Speaker 1: turn your ad blocker off. Yeah, you know, you vandal

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Speaker 1: physigoth trying to think of trying to think of European

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Speaker 1: marauders at this point, you're viking um and uh, and

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Speaker 1: so it's that's an interesting thing to see. Now. We

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Speaker 1: don't have anything like that in the US because privacy

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Speaker 1: is something we long since give up on. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're still doing the song and dance every so often. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's one of those we we make

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Speaker 1: hallmark card level statements about privacy republic sphere. And I

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Speaker 1: guess I guess the really the place to kind of

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Speaker 1: end this discussion. The really the kicker, the reason why

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Speaker 1: it would be very difficult for me to argue with

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Speaker 1: any sincerity against someone's to vision to use an ad

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Speaker 1: blocker is the safety issue, the malware issue. So earlier

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Speaker 1: this year, UM, there was a story about how this uh,

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Speaker 1: this malware group managed to infiltrate advertising companies that served

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Speaker 1: ads two places like uh, the BBC and other major

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Speaker 1: outlets like MSN, a O L like the New York Times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are huge outlets that are to have advertising on them.

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Speaker 1: And what the malware designers had done was they had

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Speaker 1: injected malware into ads that were being served on these

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Speaker 1: so they didn't have to they didn't have to hack

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Speaker 1: into the New York Times or the BBC. They had

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Speaker 1: to hack into the actual advertising server and insert some

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Speaker 1: malware and disguise it really well so it's not easy

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Speaker 1: to pick out. That malware gets served up as if

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Speaker 1: it's a legitimate ad, and then it could convince one

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Speaker 1: to install some code that ends up encrypting their hard drive.

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Speaker 1: This is called ransomware. So this is when, uh, you

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Speaker 1: get a message out of the blue and it says, hey,

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Speaker 1: guess what, sucker, your computer is encrypted, and we've got

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Speaker 1: an encryption key and we'll sell it to you. So

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Speaker 1: you've got to pay us and we'll give you the

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Speaker 1: key so that you can get back into your computer.

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Speaker 1: If you don't pay us at such and such a time,

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Speaker 1: we will destroy your encryption key and your computer will

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Speaker 1: permanently be encrypted. And there's nothing you can do about it.

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Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. It's essentially the way the message goes

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Speaker 1: and and so your your computer is held hostage and

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Speaker 1: unless you pay for it, then you're kind of stuck.

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Speaker 1: And because it was it was the malware attacks were

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Speaker 1: coming from these major trusted outlets. That's a huge problem, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like the people were going to,

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Speaker 1: you know, some back alley website that has already got

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Speaker 1: a terrible reputation like freeze an x and adderall dot biz.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. They were going to the New York Times

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Speaker 1: for goodness six and so uh, if you have an

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Speaker 1: ad blocker, it blocks that stuff because it identifies it

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Speaker 1: as an AD and you never get it, so you

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Speaker 1: are safe from that kind of a malware attack. So

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult to argue, hey, ad blockers are wrong

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Speaker 1: when people who don't use them are potentially going to

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Speaker 1: fall victim to this ransomware attack. And this was a

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Speaker 1: very specific incident. It's not necessarily ever going to repeat,

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Speaker 1: or it may not repeat on a scale as large

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Speaker 1: as it did before. But it drives home that fact

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Speaker 1: that ad blockers are not just for people who are

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Speaker 1: tired of being sold to. It's for people who are like, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to be able to surf the web, like

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Speaker 1: I'm very careful with the way I surf the web.

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure that I don't get hit

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Speaker 1: by something despite how careful I am. And I'm getting

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Speaker 1: it from what I thought was a trusted source. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you know, it's it's hard to make any kind

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Speaker 1: of argument against that. In fact, one of the things

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Speaker 1: I read about was about Forbes being one of those

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Speaker 1: sites that you go to Forbes dot com and you

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Speaker 1: get the message, hey, you need to turn off your

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Speaker 1: ad blocker if you want to have access to it.

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Speaker 1: But Forbes was also victim to a ransomware attack, which

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Speaker 1: means that you know, you're like, well, I want to

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Speaker 1: read that thing on Forbes, but then you make yourself

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to being attacked by malware. Great work they do,

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Speaker 1: and that's the thing is that you know, we're again

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Speaker 1: it sounds like we're really bashing on Forbes, uh, but

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Speaker 1: it's largely due to the problem with advertising, not the

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Speaker 1: problem that Forbes wants to get paid. I totally respect that,

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Speaker 1: of course, and I know I've said it multiple times,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to drive that home is that

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Speaker 1: as someone who I make a living off this, I

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Speaker 1: want to continue to do so. And part of that

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Speaker 1: means that I have to be you know that my

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Speaker 1: work is going up pages that have advertising served against it,

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Speaker 1: and I want those pages to do well, and I

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Speaker 1: want those advertisers to do well. But it requires that

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Speaker 1: we have an advertising system that works and that isn't

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Speaker 1: predatory or damaging. And currently we're still trying to we

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Speaker 1: as a species are still trying to find what that

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Speaker 1: thing is. We're we're kind of in a pioneering wild

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Speaker 1: West state right now. Well, and it's weird because advertising

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Speaker 1: has been around for ages. Ages. Some of the earliest

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Speaker 1: advertising actually goes back to Greco Roman times. Did you

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Speaker 1: hear about this? There were so? Well, I might actually

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Speaker 1: I think you you know what I'm gonna say. So,

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Speaker 1: are you talking about houses of ill repute? Yes? Archaeologists

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Speaker 1: found that prostitutes would wear sandals with arrows imprinted in

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Speaker 1: the soul of the sandal, so that they would a

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Speaker 1: series of arrows as they walked to as you so

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Speaker 1: fittingly put at the house of ill repute. Advertising is ancient.

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Speaker 1: I can do you one better than that. Pompeii, the

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Speaker 1: city of Pompeii. They're still paving stones and Pompeii that

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Speaker 1: have the image of a fallus raised raised like it's

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Speaker 1: actually carved in the stone like a relief. Yeah, pointing

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Speaker 1: in the direction of the brothels and and if you

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Speaker 1: get the tour guide I get for Pompeii, he delights

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Speaker 1: in pointing all of them out and explaining this and

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Speaker 1: uses the pronunciation of peose pose has a peose on it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're doing me one better though,

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Speaker 1: because these are just these are clearly like it sounds

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Speaker 1: like prostitution advertisements are the pepsi and coke of early ads. Well,

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Speaker 1: and to be fair, like you know you were saying

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Speaker 1: making tracks in the dirt, I'm talking about putting forth

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Speaker 1: the effort. Yeah, I guess there is that. Well, maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe they're brought Those were just more stable places, well

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Speaker 1: at least until the volcano erupted. Sorry sorry, well that

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Speaker 1: that volcano though, one hell of an ad blocker, So

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Speaker 1: too soon, Yeah, yeah, I should have wait a couple

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Speaker 1: more millennium. We're having a lot of fun now. This

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Speaker 1: is when when we're like, hey guys, it's fright afternoon.

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Speaker 1: I guess who's getting loopy? Um. But no getting back

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Speaker 1: into the modern day discussion of this and and and

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Speaker 1: and the concerns that are there. Um, you know. I

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Speaker 1: I've also read a piece, uh that was written I

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Speaker 1: think in zd net about how you should not The

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Speaker 1: author said you shouldn't give sites that uh require you

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Speaker 1: to disabled ad blockers your clicks because of the safety

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Speaker 1: issue is that if they say that they value money

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Speaker 1: more than they value your safety as a customer. Then

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Speaker 1: that's a message that tells you you should not be

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Speaker 1: a customer of that company. And I thought, well, that's

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Speaker 1: a very hard argument to oppose, right, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to go to a store where they're like, listen,

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Speaker 1: buy some of our stuff. And then I look up

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Speaker 1: and I see that ceiling tiles are about to fall down,

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Speaker 1: or there's a sparking wire that's just laying on the ground.

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Speaker 1: There's a kid by himself in a puddle, just screaming.

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Speaker 1: There's a guy in a hockey mask just pacing back

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Speaker 1: and forth. And in the shadows back in the section

430
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: that I need to go in, there's there are a

431
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: lot of like there's a lot of warning flags that

432
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: are popping up, and I'm thinking, clearly, this this shop

433
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: proprietor doesn't care about my safety and just wants me

434
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: to buy something out and I don't. I don't necessarily

435
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: mean that websites or shop proprietors for that matter, need

436
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: to fall over themselves and say, listen, you're welfare is

437
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: our chief concern, but at least show some concern, right right, Yeah,

438
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: exactly exactly, because the audience, the audience ultimately should be

439
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: the primary concern, right yeah, And and again, if your

440
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: goal is to make money by selling to those people,

441
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 1: or if your goal is to make money so that

442
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: you can continue creating content and you're doing it through

443
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: a partnership with an advertiser, then part of that means

444
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: you definitely want that audience to be well because otherwise

445
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: you don't have someone to sell to. Right. So it

446
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: makes it's so easy to see how it makes sense

447
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: that the best possible approach is to find the one

448
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: that is not going to irritate your viewer base. Because

449
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: if you can figure that out, then you are good

450
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: to go. If if you are uh, if you're able

451
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: to do it with pushing away your audience, then things

452
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: are working. The weird thing and I know where I

453
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: was going with before I talked about the ancient the

454
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: ancient advertisement. The weird thing is we've had advertisement for

455
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: so long, but no real way of seeing how effective

456
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: it was, right right, yeah, no, no metric so television, radio, newspaper, magazines.

457
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: I mean, you could see after an ad campaign if

458
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: sales increased, and you could argue, well, some of that

459
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: sales increase must be due to the advertising, and you're

460
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: probably right, But you can't get to the point where

461
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: you can say how much of that increase was due

462
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: to the advertising. Uh it may be that advertising had

463
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: a small but ultimately not tremendous impact on sales and

464
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: something else was responsible for the spike. It's it was

465
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: impossible to say. The real weird thing about the Internet

466
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: is you can track all that, right, You can track

467
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: if people click on an AD, and once you get

468
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: that information, instead of making it more value, double it

469
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: somehow made it less valuable. And possibly they made it

470
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: less valuable by people saying, you know, advertising not as

471
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: powerful as I thought it was, which meant all the

472
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: advertising companies in the world said, oh, all the Don

473
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: Draper's of the world said that that opening part of

474
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: the credits, where a silhouette is falling from a building

475
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: is starting to look pretty prophetic. Right now, of course,

476
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: we all know that's not how it turned out. I

477
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: have never seen that, neither of I have just read

478
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: a lot about it. It's a lot like, yeah, that's

479
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: a lot of it's exactly like Looper. Uh So, anyway,

480
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: that kind of wraps up our discussion, and and uh, again,

481
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: this is a weird thing to talk about on a podcast.

482
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: That occasionally has sponsors. That also again as part of

483
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: a company that does web that well, that makes money

484
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: at least in part through web advertising. But we thought

485
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: it was an important one to talk about because as

486
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: as people who create content, we want to see this work.

487
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: We want, we want to have a job. Then I

488
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

489
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: I like what I do for a living. I'm here

490
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: for community service. Actually I got you. Yeah, that explains

491
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: the orange vest that you just have to wait. Yes,

492
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: but then we have to report you because we're told

493
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: you yeah. So yeah. We love our jobs and we

494
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: want to keep doing them. But as consumers ourselves, we

495
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: completely understand the plight of people who are tired of

496
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: these bad experiences. So if I were to leave you

497
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: with anything, dear listeners, it would be put all the

498
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: house stuff works domains on your white list so that

499
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: I can continue to have a job. But also if

500
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: anyone out there is in the advertising world to really

501
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: give hard thought like how can we create a better

502
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: system that serves everyone more effectively? Because we we do.

503
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: We need that, we want it. We need it for

504
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: multiple reasons. The content providers needed, the viewers needed, the

505
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: advertising companies needed, the the vendors needed. We just have

506
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: to figure that out in a way that has not

507
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: really worked yet. With some exceptions. There's some online ads

508
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: that may be extremely effective, and we need to study

509
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: how those work and what was it that made them

510
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: special and perhaps create more appropriate best practices stuff. Yeah,

511
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's way more effective currently. It seems to

512
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: be our our Twitter accounts from uh companies. Yeah, that

513
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: talked directly to it with a sense of humor and

514
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: uh in these weird rivalries like fast food company twitters

515
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: are hilarious. I don't know who they put in charge

516
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: of it, and I don't know great well. And and

517
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: for me, like, I subscribe to quite a few services

518
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: as well, including YouTube Bread is one. And because I

519
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: subscribe to YouTube Bread, I don't I don't worry about

520
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: ads that doesn't happen, but um, it means I'm paying

521
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: a certain amount per month to have access to that.

522
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: And in fact, I didn't even subscribe to YouTube Bread.

523
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: Technically I subscribed to Google Music, which then converted into

524
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: a YouTube Bread subscribe, which is awesome. I don't have

525
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: to subscribe to two different things now, Um, but that

526
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: approach I also like, like I like the choice saying, hey,

527
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: you know, you can go the route of watching the

528
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: AD supported content, or if you pay a little to

529
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: us each month, you can get the AD free version. Um.

530
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,239
Speaker 1: And I'm fine with that too, because it does give

531
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: you a choice. But but even better than that is

532
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: to find this responsible way to serve up adverage rising

533
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: where the viewers are safe, the audience is safe rather

534
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: and that you know, no one feels like they're being

535
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 1: attacked or no one's actually getting attacked case ransomware. Ben,

536
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Please let my

537
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: listeners know where they can find all of the things

538
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: that Ben Bowland does. Yes, all of the safer work things.

539
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely will always Thanks for having me on board the show,

540
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: Jonathan and listeners. You can check out some uh, some

541
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: conspiratorial or darker sides of tech on our show Stuff

542
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: They Don't Want You to Know, which comes out in

543
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: audio and video each week we have a new episode

544
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: on both of those platforms, and you can catch your

545
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: host here, Jonathan on several of those, uh, several of

546
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: the shows we've we've had some different cameos. You can

547
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: also see Jonathan and I on our video show brain

548
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: Stuff and We're also on a show called What the

549
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: Stuff yep, and Uh, there's another show of yours that

550
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 1: I always want to mention because I'm a personal fan

551
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: of it. If somebody wants to know more about future tech,

552
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: where can they go fw thinking dot com or go

553
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: to YouTube dot com and search for fw thinking that's

554
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: forward thinking. Uh. It's a show that's gone on for

555
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,959
Speaker 1: four seasons so far, and really proud of it done

556
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: some great work with Joe and Lauren have been writers

557
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: on that series as well. I've been writer and host.

558
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: They have written for it. We also have an audio

559
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: podcast that goes along with that, so you can check

560
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: that out. If you weren't already aware of it, you

561
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: are now, so yeah, thanks so much guys. If you

562
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: have suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, please let

563
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: me know. Once again, I finally figured out that all

564
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: of my listener mail was going to the helpful clutter

565
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: folder Microsoft heltbook, and now that I know that, I

566
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: fixed it, So feel free to write to me that

567
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: email addresses text at how stuff Works dot com, or

568
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: you can drop me a line on Twitter or Facebook.

569
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: The handle at both of those is text Stuff H

570
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: s W and I will talk to you again really soon.

571
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: For more on this and bathands of other topics. Is

572
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: that how stuff works dot com