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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so

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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our number

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Speaker 1: one super producer, Max, the Irrational Williams.

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Speaker 2: Max runs the Numbers, the Numbers guy and Irrational Williams.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have survived.

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Speaker 3: I am back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you went on a you went on a bit

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Speaker 1: of a sojourn, didn't you.

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Speaker 3: I did. I did. I went to the uh the uh.

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Speaker 4: I guess it's a midwestern state, but I don't really

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Speaker 4: understand how it's.

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Speaker 2: Sort of on the cusp. Right, Yeah, Louis, Missouri. It's weird.

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Speaker 2: It feels sort of weirdly southern in some way. It's

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Speaker 2: been another way is it feels vaguely midwestern.

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Speaker 4: What I was told is Saint Louis is midwestern, Missouri southern.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting. Guys. Oh that's mister Noel Brown.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben and Bowling. It is, and.

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Speaker 2: Well for legal and tax purposes. Uh, but I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get me start on. I'm not gonna pay this guy.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I did.

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Speaker 1: I took a bath on it, all right, I won't

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Speaker 1: do it all right, well, like, well there's beending and all.

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Speaker 5: Well, don't say it on air, but we we we're

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Speaker 5: talking about some uh, some fascinating rational things today.

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Speaker 1: This is a unsolved murder from Millennia.

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Speaker 2: Go.

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Speaker 1: But while we're talking Missouri, just so everybody knows, uh,

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Speaker 1: our brother Max was on a vacation and had some

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Speaker 1: adventures and Max nol I gotta see. I've been to Missouri,

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Speaker 1: and I love your pronunciation there, Noel. I've been to

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Speaker 1: Missouri a couple of times, and I was always freaked

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Speaker 1: out by how far away I was from the ocean.

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Speaker 3: It is very in land, landlocked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, don't don't eat this, don't don't eat the fish.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know. It seems like they can get

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Speaker 2: good fish just about anywhere. We're landlocked here and we're

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Speaker 2: next to an airport, and we get really nice fresh

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Speaker 2: fish at our local markets. I wanted to take this

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Speaker 2: opportunity and talking about the great state of Missouri, h

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Speaker 2: to shout out a friend of the show, Christy, who

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Speaker 2: is here visiting in Atlanta right now to see Lady Gaga,

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Speaker 2: who I went and saw last night, And although our

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Speaker 2: seats were terrible, it was a fantastic spectacle of a show.

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Speaker 2: It was like Circa sole A. It was wonderful. I've

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Speaker 2: got all the song stuck in my head. But Christy

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Speaker 2: said that calling St. Lewis Saint Louis is like calling

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Speaker 2: Atlanta Atlanta.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just wanted to give her her due and

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Speaker 2: just put that out into the world.

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Speaker 3: It didn't really occur to me that connection.

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Speaker 1: The bar brothers from a school of humans. Some folks

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Speaker 1: we work with have said very much the same, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear that. You guys did make

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Speaker 1: it to the Lady.

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Speaker 2: Gaga show for the second time. We thought it was

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Speaker 2: the previous week, and we went. We got all dulled up,

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Speaker 2: Me and the kid marched our way down to a

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Speaker 2: state farm arena and there was not a soul in sight.

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Speaker 3: So you know, it was a trial run.

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Speaker 2: If anyone gets a chance to see Mother Mayhem, by

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Speaker 2: all means, please do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and please note the time signatures, because music is math. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: music is math plus poetry.

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Speaker 3: Son of a bitch.

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Speaker 1: Pretty good, right, It's pretty good. So we are we are,

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Speaker 1: by way of irrational segues, we are going to we

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Speaker 1: are going to explore a story that the Jedi won't

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Speaker 1: tell you. This is part of our continuing series on

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Speaker 1: inventors who died in some way due to their own inventions.

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Speaker 1: This is a special case.

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Speaker 2: This is especially boy is it ever? You ask yourself,

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Speaker 2: how can numbers kill? And I gotta say too. When

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Speaker 2: I saw the headline of this one, the irrational death

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Speaker 2: of hippoesis hyposis, I read it as irrational death of

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Speaker 2: hippopotamus and I was excited because that would have been

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Speaker 2: a throwback to remember the The Hippos The Wild Hippos

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Speaker 2: a Pablo Star one of our first episodes.

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Speaker 3: I thought the hit The Wild Hippos were finally getting there.

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Speaker 2: Due Narco Hippos. For Narco's Narco Hippos? Are those hippos?

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Speaker 2: What narc are those hippos? What belonged to Narco?

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Speaker 3: Terror?

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Speaker 1: Be a cartoon of entity. I recently rewatched Scarface so

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Speaker 1: I could learn a little bit more about the drug

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Speaker 1: trade due to recent news. Thanks for the nod Max

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Speaker 1: acknowledgment that we are in the worst timeline. One thing

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Speaker 1: that's really great about a scarface is back in the

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Speaker 1: day when they used to have to do like edits

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Speaker 1: for television, that one has some bangers. In terms of

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Speaker 1: the replacements of the swears, I'm not gonna say what

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Speaker 1: the original is. This is a family show, but one

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Speaker 1: of them it turns into from the Bad Thing to

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Speaker 1: Miami is just a chicken waiting to be plucked.

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Speaker 3: So use your imagination. Yeah, jump in here real quick.

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Speaker 4: My favorite TV edit of all time it's still from

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Speaker 4: the Matrix, where Neo's on the side of the building

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Speaker 4: the very beginning and he was like, oh.

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Speaker 3: Sukes, Okay, don't know that one.

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Speaker 2: But Big Lebowski also has some really quality ones. One

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Speaker 2: is this is what happened when you leave a stranger

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Speaker 2: in the Alps as opposed to the Bad Thing.

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Speaker 1: It's up there with a so I watch a lot

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Speaker 1: of foreign films, and it's up there with the weird

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Speaker 1: translations that attempt to be palatable, where you have someone say, oh,

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Speaker 1: like the Mandarin would say something like, you know, let's

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Speaker 1: get it on because we are a family show, and

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Speaker 1: the translation will be let's spend some time together late

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Speaker 1: at night.

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Speaker 2: Now and then make pancakes how and that heck, are

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Speaker 2: we gonna pivot from Scarface TV at it's back to math.

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Speaker 2: It was my fault because I said Hipassas, and that

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Speaker 2: made me think of Hippopotamuss and it's just a whole

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Speaker 2: horror show. Foh on, But I think I just did it.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about a Greek.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is the legend of hipposis or hipassis.

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Speaker 3: Thank you much preferred.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So before we dive in, folks, it is crucial

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Speaker 1: to note that we as a crew are not math

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Speaker 1: surgeons or whatever the term is. But for this story,

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Speaker 1: we do need to briefly explain or explore the concept

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Speaker 1: of irrational numbers, which sounds like it sounds paradoxical, does

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Speaker 1: it not.

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Speaker 2: I think about it with the same level of bewilderment

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Speaker 2: as I do leap year or or Thanksgiving or Easter.

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Speaker 2: You know, no, I think I'm more confused by irrational

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Speaker 2: numbers than giving. Easter is a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: head scratcher. But Thanksgiving, I know, it's a weird date thing,

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Speaker 2: but I kind of more or less get it. Irrational numbers, it's.

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Speaker 3: It isn't a little bit of a heady concept.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, all right. So if we were to put

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Speaker 1: it simply, and this will be important later, an irrational

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Speaker 1: number is any real number, quote unquote, A positive or

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Speaker 1: negative number or zero, but it cannot be written as

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Speaker 1: a fraction. So for a fanci or definition, we could

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Speaker 1: say an irrational number can't be expressed as the ratio

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Speaker 1: of two integers.

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Speaker 2: So this would be maybe to simplify a little bit.

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Speaker 2: For people that just barely past algebra, like myself, you

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Speaker 2: might think of this as a repeating decimal.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's great, Yeah, you nailed it. So decimals that.

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Speaker 3: Just goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: No, yeah, it's no discernible repeating pattern, right, they continue

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Speaker 1: being a very famous one. And there are also things

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Speaker 1: like Euler's number or the Golden ratio.

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Speaker 2: And stuff like this too that makes me kind of

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Speaker 2: look at numbers with a certain mysticism. There's a certain

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Speaker 2: quality of like being able to explain the unexplainable or

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Speaker 2: sort of boil down the scrits of the universe to

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Speaker 2: like numbers. And you start to think of like the

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Speaker 2: movie Pie and Kabbala and numerology and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: When I think of irrational numbers and like a number

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Speaker 2: that just goes on ad infinitum, that starts to kind

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Speaker 2: of peauk my interest in that direction.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Pie is such a great film. It's a

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Speaker 1: classic buddy comedy. We've got one.

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Speaker 2: Totally pleasant, a real good, a real rop. It's one

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Speaker 2: for the kiddo Police Academy, the movie.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Police Academy, the movie. Square roots are also Some

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Speaker 1: square roots are also irrational because they're not perfect squares.

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Speaker 1: So like if you enter the square root of numbers

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Speaker 1: such as two or thirteen or eighteen into a calculator,

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Speaker 1: the answer you get, the reply you get will not

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Speaker 1: be rational. The square root of two is the best

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Speaker 1: known of these. As you can tell, folks, this is

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Speaker 1: a whole messy bowl of spaghetti. But no, I think

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Speaker 1: we can agree this is on a positive note. It

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Speaker 1: is an exciting reminder that humanity, even now still doesn't

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Speaker 1: know everything about math.

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Speaker 2: Well that's what I was getting at. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: guess you could see why my head would go towards

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Speaker 2: the whole mysticism and the secrets of the universe and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And we have something that is meant to be and

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Speaker 2: on its surface is completely rational and a way of

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Speaker 2: boiling things down to very understandable you know, integers, formulas, etc.

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Speaker 2: To have an aspect of that that's unexplainable, it seems

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Speaker 2: counter to the whole idea of like the tidiness of math.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, well put and you know in fact, folks,

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Speaker 1: Noel Max, if we're all cool with this, I would

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Speaker 1: like to issue an official ridiculous History challenge.

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Speaker 3: Hmmm. I thought it was going to be a proclamation challenge.

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Speaker 1: A challenge and invitation way of the open hands. If

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Speaker 1: you are listening, fellow ridiculous historian, and you become the

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Speaker 1: first person to solve pie and prove it to us

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Speaker 1: and figure out where that decimal ultimately ends, we will

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Speaker 1: take you, Noel Max and yours truly will take you

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Speaker 1: on an all expenses paid trip to a Dave and

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Speaker 1: Busters of your choice.

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Speaker 3: Preferably you know, one in the the the metro Atlanta area,

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Speaker 3: preferably what I'm geting, we'll go. We'll go over wherever,

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Speaker 3: whatever your your DNB of choices.

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Speaker 2: We'll meet you there, all expenses Ben, that's a are.

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Speaker 3: Are we sure we can get finance to approve this?

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Speaker 1: We're kind of doing a ask forgiveness loker thing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I'm also you know what, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 2: ahead and put my money where my mouth is. If

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Speaker 2: you can solve this equation, this lish you know historical quandary.

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Speaker 2: I'll pony up the all expenses myself. Oh, come on

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Speaker 2: out of my own pocket. I've got your back.

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Speaker 3: Thanks buddy, when you.

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Speaker 1: Have the Yeah, we got to go haves The's on this.

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Speaker 3: That way, we won't get you. Guys are definitely going to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, I noticed you went mute on that one.

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Speaker 2: What is there a three way version of Havesy's Triumvirate Tripsy's.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, We're a family show.

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Speaker 1: So for I love the point that you made there

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Speaker 1: earlier a couple of times. For a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: the concept of irrational numbers is not simply paradoxical. It

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Speaker 1: is downright mystical. And according to the legends, we owe

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Speaker 1: the discovery of irrational numbers to a cult. What's say

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Speaker 1: we introduce.

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Speaker 3: Hipposis a numbers cult.

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Speaker 2: I love it, Like was that one Jim Carrey movie

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Speaker 2: with the scary numbers.

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Speaker 1: Over the room. He's in a room.

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Speaker 2: He's in a room, and he's I think he's written

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Speaker 2: all over his face. Even it's called like the numbers.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if this is there's a name for this.

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Speaker 2: Whenever there's a number associated with a title or even

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Speaker 2: a band, outside of blank one any too, because that's

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Speaker 2: just you know ingrained into my brain.

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Speaker 3: I can never remember the number part.

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Speaker 2: You'll often hear me say, it's just it's just this

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Speaker 2: with some number, I'll never I don't have a brain

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Speaker 2: for numbers. And that even comes with like remembering addresses

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Speaker 2: and you know, codes to doors.

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Speaker 1: And I love numbers, but I don't understand them.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I love them too. I think they're fascinating,

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Speaker 2: as did this cult.

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Speaker 1: I hope that we make more episodes in the future

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Speaker 1: because I would hate for our I would hate for

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Speaker 1: us to be struck by a meteor or a Shaha

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Speaker 1: drone and then have our last quotations be stuff like

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Speaker 1: I love numbers, but I don't understand them.

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Speaker 3: That was that bient people out on my tombstone. He

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Speaker 3: loved numbers. Noel around who loved numbers but did not understand.

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Speaker 1: So back around let's say five hundred BCEE or so,

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Speaker 1: we got this guy named Hipposis h I P P

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Speaker 1: A s U. S. Of Metapontum, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: it's common for people of that era to be described

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Speaker 1: as from a place.

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Speaker 2: It's a little village right there on the coast of

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Speaker 2: modern day Greece seems like a lovely place to to vacation.

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Speaker 2: Some cool historic remnants of you know, Greek column structures

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Speaker 2: around you can see it was an ancient city of

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Speaker 2: Magna in Greece.

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Speaker 1: And our guy, Hipposis, he is a philosopher. He is

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Speaker 1: an early follower of an enigmatic character named Pythagoras. Now

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Speaker 1: we all remember the name Pythagoras for one reason, right.

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Speaker 3: The theorem. Yeah, that's the triangle one.

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Speaker 1: Right, how do you find the high potten news the

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Speaker 1: Pythagora pat.

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Speaker 3: I was high on pot news.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a square plus B squared equals C squared. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this was a revolution for the ages. And now it

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Speaker 1: is an old grade school math question. The thing is,

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Speaker 1: before we have characters like Plato and Aristotle, we've got

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Speaker 1: Pythagoras of Samos, And he is the guy who is

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Speaker 1: running around doing his version of Ted Talks saying math

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Speaker 1: is the key to the universe.

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Speaker 3: He ain't wrong, it's not wrong.

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Speaker 2: I was blown away by how early they figured out

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Speaker 2: all this stuff. I mean, I was stating the obvious,

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Speaker 2: but like, it's just these are some smart people who

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Speaker 2: figured out some very very interesting ways of solving some

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Speaker 2: very very heady questions using this seemingly on the surface,

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Speaker 2: very logical, formulaic approach. But Pythagoras knew that there was

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Speaker 2: something deeper, there was something behind the numbers, and he

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Speaker 2: took that thinking and more or less built it into

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Speaker 2: a kind of religion.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now, Pythagoras, for most of us in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six, Pythagoras is a dusty old name you see

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Speaker 1: in math textbooks, maybe philosophy books. But to your point,

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Speaker 1: back in his heyday, his Hauseyon age, this guy was

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Speaker 1: a cult leader. Essentially, his ideas were so galvanizing, so

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Speaker 1: electric that people started following him and they created something

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Speaker 1: called the Pythagorean cult, which he founded and kind of

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Speaker 1: named after himself in a burst of humility.

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Speaker 2: This was.

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Speaker 1: A secretive, mystical communal society blended math, philosophy and interesting

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Speaker 1: religious practices. Like they were strict vegetarians.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they believed in the music of the spheres and

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Speaker 2: in like sacred geometry and all of these sort of

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Speaker 2: harmonious connections between celestial bodies that they believed could be

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Speaker 2: explained using a lot of these mathematical concepts, and he

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Speaker 2: became quite the influencer of the time.

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Speaker 3: He had over one thousand followers.

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Speaker 2: At the time who helped him establish sort of an

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Speaker 2: achrom kind of situation, like a commune, and under his

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Speaker 2: leadership in that commune, a sort of to your point,

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Speaker 2: been very holistic approach to living, kind of flourished.

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Speaker 3: They seemed to have almost like.

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Speaker 2: An intentional community kind of set.

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Speaker 3: You know, there we go.

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Speaker 1: They believed in things like what we would call reincarnation today.

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Speaker 1: They also had rules that might sound oddly specific, like

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't eat fava beans. I don't know why with

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Speaker 1: a nice kiante. Yeah, yeah, nailed it. This thing that

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Speaker 1: flourishes in modern day southern Italy, this colony that the

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Speaker 1: Thagoras is leading. They start to become increasingly politically important,

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Speaker 1: and this makes powerful enemies that ultimately lead to the

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Speaker 1: ending of this intentional community. That's a story for another day.

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Speaker 1: For now, it's enough.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can see why. It was almost the

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Speaker 2: behavior of like a heretic in a way. If you're

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Speaker 2: going against the prevailing pantheon and you're saying it's more

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Speaker 2: important to worship Math than it is to worship Zeus,

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Speaker 2: I can see how they can make you some powerful enemies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially if you pop off at the mouth with

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Speaker 1: some easy thing like well, I think Zeus is actually

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Speaker 1: math and Poseidon is another kind of math. People don't

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Speaker 1: like to hear that well for sure.

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Speaker 2: And usually this kind of intense rationalism, I guess you

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Speaker 2: could call it, even though there certainly was a mystical bent,

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Speaker 2: tends to fly in the face of like established much more,

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Speaker 2: you know, rigid religious beliefs that had that worship deities

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Speaker 2: of some kind, because typically these folks aren't gonna like

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Speaker 2: put my stock into that kind of thing. I'd bean like,

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Speaker 2: these these are fantasies, right. It disrupts power structures, that's

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Speaker 2: the issue. Yeah, And so okay, So it's enough for

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Speaker 2: us to know now that Pythagoras started occult all about numbers,

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Speaker 2: saying that reality can be explained through rational numbers and

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Speaker 2: to your point, through rational thought. Our buddy Hipposis is

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Speaker 2: an early adopter of these beliefs, and it makes sense

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Speaker 2: for us even now in twenty twenty six. People have

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Speaker 2: always endeavored to understand how the world works, and the

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Speaker 2: claim that the entirety of the universe can be understand

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Speaker 2: via rational numbers. This concept that everything could somehow make sense. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: this is hugely appealing, and Pythagoras does end up dying

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Speaker 2: in modern day Italy starves himself, but his followers carry

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Speaker 2: on his traditions for several more centuries. About one hundred

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Speaker 2: years later, the Pythagoreans are maintaining the traditions and they

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Speaker 2: attract the attention of a young up and comer named Hipposis,

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Speaker 2: and Hipposis at the beginning is having a great time

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 3: Up until this time, Pythagoreans. Pythagoreans, Yeah, that works. They

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Speaker 3: were busy telling folks and spreading the word to the shade.

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Speaker 3: In any case, that all numbers could be expressed as

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Speaker 3: the ratio of integers.

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Speaker 1: Now let's hold on there, Noel, because okay, have you

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Speaker 1: ever been approached by a cult?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the Moonies at the airport, Harry Krishna's the same. No,

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Speaker 2: they're different. I think the Moon's and the Harry Christians

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Speaker 2: are a little different. And I know it's sometimes offense.

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Speaker 2: Did throw around the sea word, and certainly we're not

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Speaker 2: here to denigrate anyone's beliefs, but both of those groups

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Speaker 2: do exhibit some kind of let's just say, uh, recruitment

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Speaker 2: type outreach situation. Yeah, and a scientologists. Have you ever

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Speaker 2: been to LA They'll come at you in the street. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they'll try to get you to come in to the

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Speaker 2: all around Hubbard Museum and take the tour, which you

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Speaker 2: should do because it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: But it is a recruitment tactic.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, like Zendik farms we used to have. Again, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they send people out. No, Max, have you been approached

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Speaker 1: by a cult?

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Speaker 4: I remember my freshman orientation or college I got attacked

359
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Speaker 4: by some people in frats trying to get them to

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Speaker 4: joint of frat?

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Speaker 3: I mean, same thing. What really makes a frat that

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Speaker 3: mus different from a cult type? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's easier to catch more flies with honey than you

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Speaker 2: do with attacking people MLM.

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Speaker 1: So the reason we're asking this folks, and please share

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Speaker 1: your cult stories with us is imagine if you are

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Speaker 1: in an airport or something and person walks up to you.

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Speaker 1: They're pitch to you is quote reality is all numbers,

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Speaker 1: It's all math, and you're thinking, well, this guy's kind

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Speaker 1: of strange, and then they say further, all numbers can

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Speaker 1: be expressed as the ratio of integers.

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Speaker 3: End quote.

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Speaker 1: You'd be like, you're the most boring cult leader or

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Speaker 1: you're the most boring cults representative ever. You're a snooze fest.

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Speaker 1: Aren't you supposed to tell me something weird about ancient

376
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Speaker 1: aliens or twin flames? But no integers you.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, man, though, this is interesting what I

378
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Speaker 2: was getting, because we're obviously talking about the disruption of

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Speaker 2: this orderly way of viewing the universe, and I can

380
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Speaker 2: see how this numbers thing could have been really attractive

381
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Speaker 2: because there is something to it that is like so

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Speaker 2: understandable and rational in a way of like explaining a

383
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Speaker 2: lot of the movement of the stars and the planets

384
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Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing that sort of is

385
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Speaker 2: an interesting, easier to wrap your head around alternative some

386
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Speaker 2: of the more like you know, traditional Greek religious belief system.

387
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Speaker 2: But when you start throwing in this whole idea of like, well,

388
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Speaker 2: what if the numbers aren't as easy to understand? What

389
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Speaker 2: if there's something else to me? That is where the

390
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Speaker 2: mystical part comes in. I just wonder how disruptive this

391
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Speaker 2: must have been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, along comes are pal Hyposis. From what we know,

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Speaker 1: he's an ordinary rank and file cult member, At first

394
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Speaker 1: they're saying yay number, and he says, yay numbers, and

395
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Speaker 1: they say be vegetarian, and he says, yay vegetarian, and

396
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Speaker 1: they say beat me here, Max fava beans, and he says, cool.

397
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Speaker 1: I'm still on board. But at some point, according to

398
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Speaker 1: the legend, he was trying to inscribe a dodecahedron inside

399
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Speaker 1: a sphere or best shape, the best shape, it's one

400
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: of the best dice out there. Or he was trying

401
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Speaker 1: to explain the ratio of lengths in a pentagram one

402
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: of the symbols, another sarians another six shape for sure.

403
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Speaker 1: And the story goes that while he was trying to

404
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Speaker 1: figure this out, he realized some of the lengths that

405
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Speaker 1: he was calculating could not be expressed as fractions. Therefore,

406
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Speaker 1: he provides the first proof of the existence of irrational numbers,

407
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Speaker 1: and he feels like he has to go public, he

408
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Speaker 1: has to blow the whistle on this rational number cult.

409
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Speaker 2: Well and writes, and he was on board with it.

410
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a follower of Pythagoras, so this

411
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Speaker 2: had to have been mind blowing, galaxy brain type stuff

412
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Speaker 2: for him as well. And to what I was sort

413
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Speaker 2: of speculating earlier. It's absolutely true. This flew in the

414
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Speaker 2: face of everything that these folks believed in and was

415
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Speaker 2: completely disruptive to their worldview. And I'm sorry if I'm

416
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: harping on this a little bit, but do you do

417
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Speaker 2: you kind of see where I'm coming from with like

418
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Speaker 2: how I how it feels like the mystery part of

419
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Speaker 2: numbers is more interesting and more a sign of the

420
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Speaker 2: mystical aspects of it than it being perfect, and like

421
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Speaker 2: you know, absolutely zero room for error, and like just no,

422
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: it's these these whole numbers. But I can understand how

423
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Speaker 2: it also at the time would have been really, really

424
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Speaker 2: difficult to reconcile the two.

425
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Speaker 1: This flies in the face of everything the cult believes,

426
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Speaker 1: their entire worldview. The legend gets a little murky because

427
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Speaker 1: some people around the time, or within a few centuries

428
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Speaker 1: after the fact, they would tell you the Pythagoreans took

429
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: offence at this discovery of irrational numbers, and in other tales,

430
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Speaker 1: Hipposis made his results public and he got in trouble

431
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: not for discovering irrational numbers, but for blowing the whistle

432
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Speaker 1: about the sect's secret practices.

433
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Speaker 2: Okay, there's a little more to numbers than initially met

434
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Speaker 2: the eye. He's kind of doxing these folks and exposing

435
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: some potentially problematic behavior.

436
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe so.

437
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: History remembers him as snitching about irrational numbers. But maybe

438
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: he also so snitched about fava beans and they were like,

439
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: hey man, they'll talk about the beans. That's between us.

440
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: And maybe even this if this means an extra google

441
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 2: or something like what did he do?

442
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 5: What?

443
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: We don't really have too much information on what he exposed. Essentially,

444
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: the legend goes that he exposed the existence of things

445
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: like the golden ratio or pie. He found that there

446
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: are some numbers that do not jibe with the worldview

447
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: of the Pythagorea and cult. Got it, but didn't He

448
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: also kind of expose some of their practices of, you know,

449
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: somewhat heretical behavior like offending gods and all of these

450
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: various acts of defiance that maybe they were doing behind

451
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: closed doors.

452
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: That's part of it. Yeah, that's one of the other allegations.

453
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: We do know that the official story, again still legends

454
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: at this point time. The official story is that he

455
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: drowned somehow in the sea shortly after announcing he discovered

456
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: irrational numbers, and some scholars would later claim that he

457
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: was murdered by fellow cult members. Definite possibility. The juicier

458
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: version of the legend is that his discovery did not

459
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: just offend mortals, it offended the gods as well as Yes,

460
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: his death at sea is a divine punishment because he

461
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: looked too deeply behind.

462
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 3: The curtain of reality.

463
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: Okay, death at sea, Yeah, what are we talking here?

464
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: Kind of just a voyage that went awry of Robert

465
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: Maxwell's situation. Perhaps that's the thing. Like so many ancient tales,

466
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: this one probably got embellished over time or it was

467
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: made up entirely. We know that a lot of modern

468
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: authors will say that hipposis did at least independently discover

469
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: irrational numbers, but there's not really any direct evidence to

470
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: support that. There's just a bunch of campfire stories in

471
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: the game of Telephone.

472
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: For sure.

473
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: And can I also just say there is one version

474
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: of the legend. Man, I found a cool piece on

475
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: Scientific American how Secret Society discovered irrational numbers, And it's

476
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: the image that they pulled. It's just like it looks

477
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: like a bunch of ring raths, Like it's just these

478
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: shadowy figures, robed figures with no faces. It is absolutely terrifying.

479
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: But one version of this legend is that it was

480
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: the cult members that turned on him and drowned him

481
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: to death at Seed.

482
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: This was a hit.

483
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the thing. There's a third possibility about

484
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: his death. This is again a true crime story that

485
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: remains unsolved millennia later. What if he did discover ra numbers,

486
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: ruffled the wrong feathers and as fellow cultists got mad

487
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: enough to kill him. And what if later they claimed

488
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: he was drowned by the gods to throw authorities off

489
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: the trail, Right, because.

490
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: Right, the divine punishment for his for his own heresy. Yeah,

491
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: and I don't keep using that word, but I think

492
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: it's appropriate. It's it's perfect after all? Then, is now

493
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: the gods are beyond mortal jurisdiction. We also have to remember,

494
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: just to be fair, not to be fun police about

495
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: this story, but the world was full of different civilizations,

496
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: and they all had their own math wizards at the time.

497
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: Right, they had other people who probably understood something like

498
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: irrational numbers. I don't know. No, I think it's fair

499
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: to say that hipposis may have independently discovered irrational numbers,

500
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: but it was probably not the first guy to ever

501
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: think of that.

502
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: Certainly not tons of parallel thinking involved these kinds of

503
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: discoveries you know, throughout history. But since we are talking

504
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: about legend here, there's another version that says, and this

505
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: is specifically referenced in the Scientific American piece that I

506
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: was talking about, that there's a world or of a

507
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: version of events where none of.

508
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 3: This stuff is true.

509
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: That the Pythagoreans actually thought it was awesome that he

510
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: discovered this stuff, and that them, being such math geeks,

511
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: would have been super impressed and hailed it as a

512
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: as an achievement, and that would have made Pythagorasts himself

513
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: proud as opposed to rolling in his grave. But the

514
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: story of the spooky math cult, I think, is a

515
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: little sexier. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot sexier. It's rational.

516
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: Dare we say to enjoy the juiciest version of a

517
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: But we know one thing for sure. Irrational numbers exist.

518
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: They some of them have yet to be quote unquote solved.

519
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: If that term even applies, and hipposis is definitely dead,

520
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: is he dead due to his own discovery or is

521
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: this a campfire tale that people told over and over

522
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: again for thousands of years. We leave the question to you, folks.

523
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. We

524
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: we hope we did right, fellow ridiculous historians, especially.

525
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: If you know more about math than we do.

526
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: And we've got to thank our super producer, mister Max Williams. Max,

527
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: how do we do?

528
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: Oh, Max, the math man Williams. There we go. I

529
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: will say, you did just fine, just fine, Thank you.

530
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: No. I know this is a shorter one, but you

531
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: know it is a little math heavy, and there's certainly

532
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: some stuff that we could have included, like the specific

533
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: formulas surrounding his discovery of irrational numbers.

534
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 3: But it would have just made my it would have

535
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: done my head in.

536
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for maintaining my mental health

537
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: by allowing us.

538
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: To gloss over some of that stuff.

539
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: Ben, we didn't get to Graham's number, we didn't get

540
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: to Skew's number, we didn't.

541
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: Get to offer my benefit.

542
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, Google Plex.

543
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: We've got so much I don't say no, stop stop

544
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: while you're ahead, starting.

545
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: To feel the migraine coming.

546
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: We've got so much stuff to get to in the future.

547
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed our recent foray into the spiritualism

548
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: movement or Spiritualist movement with Jonathan Strickland aka the Quisters.

549
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: So a tepid, irrational thanks to him.

550
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think I've put my beef with

551
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: strict aside for that last appearance.

552
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: You know, he was so, he was so, he's so

553
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: pleasant and then made that he'll turn at the end.

554
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

555
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: Man, sorry, I have conflicting feelings about that man.

556
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Let's just say big things. Also to doctor Rachel Big Spinach,

557
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: Lance aj Bahamas Jacobs, the puzzler we call them.

558
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yes, Chris Frosciotis and he's Jeff cos here

559
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: in spirit. Also huge thanks to our buddy Main Gosh

560
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: how ticket Door of Kaleidoscope Podcast Network Fame not network,

561
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: but you know, a production company that makes some incredible shows.

562
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: I think we're going to get to hang with that

563
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: guy come a couple of weeks from now, looking forward

564
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: to it.

565
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: Just the best. And also Noel, thanks to you, man.

566
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: Vou you as well. See you next time, folks.

567
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

568
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,