Speaker 1: So welcome for everyone listening. This is doctor Matt, who's
Speaker 1: someone who I don't personally work with, meaning he hasn't
Speaker 1: quote unquote treated me. We've spoken because we've connected on
Speaker 1: another matter that does isn't about me. But I so
Speaker 1: I met doctor Matt in a way that maybe I'll
Speaker 1: tell you another day. It's something like it's not a secret,
Speaker 1: but it's a little prime kind of private for now.
Speaker 1: So but I like, I like doctor Matt. And you
Speaker 1: give your resume, like not long, but just like, what's
Speaker 1: your I'm psychologist.
Speaker 2: I'm in private practice. I've been in private practice since
Speaker 2: ninety nine, which is obscene to me. I can't believe
Speaker 2: how long I've been doing this.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and what percentage? What do you mostly work on?
Speaker 1: It's fan I work.
Speaker 2: A lot with anxiety and depression, and a lot with families,
Speaker 2: all aspects of families. So I see a lot of kids.
Speaker 2: I do a lot of parenting, a lot of emerging
Speaker 2: young adults, a lot of twenties. The twenty somethings are
Speaker 2: coming into my practice more than ever before. Kids are
Speaker 2: also couples.
Speaker 1: And couples, So you have like a what percentages kids?
Speaker 1: What percentages or kids slash adolescents or percentages come.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, whenever you get a child. Part of
Speaker 2: my practice, I don't really just treat the child because
Speaker 2: I gotta treat the whole family. I gotta treat everybody right,
Speaker 2: so everybody comes in, so I make sure of it
Speaker 2: so it ranges. I'm about fifty to fifty with kids
Speaker 2: to adults.
Speaker 1: Okay, So since I was interviewing Raquel now Rachel from
Speaker 1: vander Pump Rules, I mentioned it to you and I
Speaker 1: asked you to watch the reunion of vander Pump Rules.
Speaker 1: So you watched the three parts of the reunion. I did, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So to get everyone caught up, because I was trying
Speaker 1: to get my head straight about what I thought I
Speaker 1: was seeing, I asked doctor Matt to watch the reunion
Speaker 1: because it seemed different than even the Housewives reunions I've seen,
Speaker 1: where it is a beatdown in many different directions and
Speaker 1: it is not exactly positive and it's not necessarily feel good.
Speaker 1: I felt that it's been a little bit like there's
Speaker 1: always like a toast at the end in some version
Speaker 1: of a resolution. And I watched this and it felt
Speaker 1: to me like a beatdown of a girl that people
Speaker 1: do not like, made many mistakes great, but I just
Speaker 1: was watching it on its face as a beat down
Speaker 1: my words. She wanted to leave, and then she was
Speaker 1: asked to come back, so I asked doctor Matt to
Speaker 1: weigh in. So I then thought he'd be interesting to
Speaker 1: just have on this show, not just about that, but
Speaker 1: just about other things going on, whether it's Danny Masterson
Speaker 1: or Cancel culture or scientology. I wanted to sort of
Speaker 1: try this out because I think think a normal personal,
Speaker 1: lay person discussing something is different than a professional person
Speaker 1: that is thinking about this kind of stuff all day.
Speaker 1: And that's an expert, not saying doctor Matt knows it all,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure his opinion, you know, take his opinion
Speaker 1: and see what you think. So this is doctor Matt,
Speaker 1: and I guess we'll start with that. So you watched
Speaker 1: that reunion, and I had research and know a bit
Speaker 1: about emotional abuse personally, and I wanted to know what
Speaker 1: you thought about that, like at that level. And you
Speaker 1: said something very interesting, which was that it did not
Speaker 1: seem like there was any goal or aim for resolution, right.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it was. It seemed to me it was
Speaker 2: just a hamster wheel of hate. Right, we were never
Speaker 2: getting off that, and they had a lot to be
Speaker 2: angry about, not to say that they were, you know,
Speaker 2: unnecessarily upset or angry, but there was no goal to that.
Speaker 2: I unless, you know, I've been thinking about that, and
Speaker 2: I think it's because of the name nature of the beast.
Speaker 2: Maybe the goal is to get ratings, simply that, right,
Speaker 2: so what are we going to do to get ratings?
Speaker 2: And maybe right so, you know, I might be looking
Speaker 2: at it differently, and what I would like to see
Speaker 2: as a goal of some kind of conclusion, of some
Speaker 2: kind of satisfaction, feeling better about a horrible event or
Speaker 2: something that happened to you that was horrible. This reminded
Speaker 2: me of Roman time, sending people, you know, slaves into
Speaker 2: the colosseum to get slaughtered by the lions and we're
Speaker 2: in the audience watching.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's so funny because I was talking
Speaker 1: to someone using the same gladiator reference. I can't believe
Speaker 1: you just said that. We've never said that to each other.
Speaker 1: I thought the same thing. It's yeah, And the funny
Speaker 1: thing is that you said, like, maybe it's about ratings,
Speaker 1: which is so like cute because you don't watch these shows,
Speaker 1: but the person who is the executive producer of the
Speaker 1: show said that the show was on the verge of cancelation,
Speaker 1: possibly being canceled, and that this saved the show, that
Speaker 1: this scandal saved the show.
Speaker 3: So it's just funny and it's interesting to me too,
Speaker 3: because you know, there are other shows like Intervention or
Speaker 3: Hoarders where they're actually working through problems.
Speaker 2: Right they're working through issues or conflicts, and it doesn't
Speaker 2: necessarily have to be I'm going to slow to you.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be all this high amount of
Speaker 2: conflict watching people say things that maybe you always wanted
Speaker 2: to say to somebody but didn't either have the guts
Speaker 2: or it didn't want to know, have the ramifications of it.
Speaker 2: So we sort of kind of vicariously enjoy watching someone
Speaker 2: do that. But I think that there's more to it
Speaker 2: than that, and I think there's an opportunity there for growth.
Speaker 2: You know that. I tell my patients a lot. I say,
Speaker 2: when you're angry at somebody and you have a five
Speaker 2: gallon bucket of shit and you want to throw it
Speaker 2: on them, there's no way you're not gonna get splattered
Speaker 2: back on yourself. There's just no way, and I don't
Speaker 2: think I would ever choose to do something that I'm
Speaker 2: gonna get shit on myself for right, I want to
Speaker 2: avoid it.
Speaker 1: Well and the funny, Well, it is two things. One
Speaker 1: is I don't blame the players, because I didn't blame
Speaker 1: uh Russell Crowe for going into the pit and killing.
Speaker 1: It was kill or be killed. I don't blame the players.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I said something about two women
Speaker 1: on another show that said to each other, they're gonna
Speaker 1: get this other girl wasted, and then one of their
Speaker 1: sons forced himself upon her behind a door and that
Speaker 1: was aired like and I never have said their names
Speaker 1: because I'm not really blaming them. When you're in this game,
Speaker 1: when you're in that colisseum, and I've been in that colosseum,
Speaker 1: I've said things I would never normally say. I've done
Speaker 1: things that you're in and I've I've not liked people
Speaker 1: that I would normally like, because when you're on the field,
Speaker 1: it's just a different game there, and it is for ratings,
Speaker 1: whether it's even it's not like on the forefront. You're
Speaker 1: not sitting there every second, so you just know what
Speaker 1: the goal is of what you're doing. It's to always
Speaker 1: say the thing you like, we hold back in life.
Speaker 1: So I think it's all what I think is interesting,
Speaker 1: and everyone's thinking about the people. And yes, we have
Speaker 1: to think about the production because the people that are
Speaker 1: the grown ups that are responsible and what they're putting out.
Speaker 1: But if people aren't buying it, if people aren't buying it,
Speaker 1: then there's nothing to sell. It's supply and demand. So
Speaker 1: I think we have to look at the viewer that's
Speaker 1: consuming this as normal because I said, it's almost like
Speaker 1: the consumer. The viewer thinks of them. They think of
Speaker 1: it as reality, but they kind of think of them
Speaker 1: almost as actors. They don't think of it as like
Speaker 1: real real. It's real, but it's not real real, So
Speaker 1: they will allow for something to go down that they
Speaker 1: would never allow in their own lives if they were
Speaker 1: standing by. So it's like, I think we're consuming things.
Speaker 1: And I just think that that podcast made a lot
Speaker 1: of people reach out to me and start thinking I
Speaker 1: didn't see it that way. They just were thinking this
Speaker 1: is an entertainment vehicle, like gladiators being ripping each other's
Speaker 1: arms off, But when they really thought this is a
Speaker 1: daughter could be a mother one day, a purse, a
Speaker 1: human being at the baseline, that was why it was
Speaker 1: the upside down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and not just the people who were attacked,
Speaker 2: But I would have I would have preferred to also
Speaker 2: hear more from the people who were attacking about what
Speaker 2: exactly got them so upset? What exactly because you know,
Speaker 2: this is the cheating. It seems like it's in a
Speaker 2: lot of their lives. You know, it's in the in
Speaker 2: the past and the histories of the show. Yes it was,
Speaker 2: and maybe it was was more personal. But why was
Speaker 2: it personal? And how was it personal? And how did
Speaker 2: it affect them? And how did they how were they
Speaker 2: afraid that it was going to affect them going forward? Right?
Speaker 2: So that I think is so important, especially with like
Speaker 2: healthy conflict resolution, because we don't have healthy conflict resolution
Speaker 2: right now. A lot that doesn't get demonstrated too often.
Speaker 2: Many battles are fought for for us instead of instead
Speaker 2: of talking about it, people pull up their tense stakes
Speaker 2: and leave, instead of managing and dealing with, Hey, this
Speaker 2: has hurt me, this upset me, or this hurt me
Speaker 2: upset me. But instead of saying it hurt me, upset me,
Speaker 2: I'm going to attack you and I'm gonna make you
Speaker 2: hurt and make you feel the way I feel.
Speaker 1: They need a moderator to do you have needed the
Speaker 1: host to facilitate.
Speaker 2: That, somebody that because because when you're emotional, you're obviously
Speaker 2: not thinking that in your emotional I'm gonna hurt, I
Speaker 2: want to hurt. I'm hurt, I'm wanna hurt you. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna make it fair and i'm gonna go I'm gonna
Speaker 2: beat you, gonna win. So yeah, absolutely a moderator will
Speaker 2: be important, someone who would be important to direct that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's more healthy. So it's an opportunity this way. Look,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a result based right, So I want people
Speaker 2: to leave that situation feeling a little bit better, feeling
Speaker 2: a little bit you know, I've grown a little bit
Speaker 2: from the situation. This is a challenge and I've grown
Speaker 2: from it. I can't imagine anybody who was launching all
Speaker 2: those attacks felt better afterwards, tired, exhausted, but I don't
Speaker 2: know if they felt actually better about it anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny because there's a guy in this
Speaker 1: Tom who's the villain. Also, and I had a guy,
Speaker 1: a person yesterday, I had a person on this podcast
Speaker 1: who was on a show with Tom as a roommate,
Speaker 1: and he said it was this like sort of competition space,
Speaker 1: this like boot campy type of army military thing. And
Speaker 1: this guy Tyler, said that Tom was a good guy,
Speaker 1: that he was loyal, that you could tell in these
Speaker 1: games that he's the type who really went for you
Speaker 1: and he got other people's backs, and like he too
Speaker 1: is a gladiator in the middle of it. Now, I
Speaker 1: know he's in a relationship, and I'll get into that
Speaker 1: with you. He's in a relationship with someone that he's
Speaker 1: lived with for ten years and now they've gone through
Speaker 1: this and they're still living together, which I really question
Speaker 1: because I can't imagine anyone who would live with someone
Speaker 1: that they didn't have to live with, and I mean
Speaker 1: children the abandonment issue, where like it's called abandonment in
Speaker 1: the courts or some very serious diar reason. And I
Speaker 1: think that the reason they are living together, and I
Speaker 1: think that the reason he is also the villain in
Speaker 1: this manner is because you do different things on these
Speaker 1: television shows and you would in your normal life, as
Speaker 1: I'm saying everybody does, and that shows based on alcohol
Speaker 1: and affairs so this guy said, he's a human being,
Speaker 1: and he said, it really bothers me because he had
Speaker 1: an affair. He cheated. Now, by the way, he's not married,
Speaker 1: he doesn't have kids. I'm not saying it's not bad,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's as bad as being married
Speaker 1: with kids. That's just my opinion. And so this guy
Speaker 1: Tyler was saying because of Cancel culture, like this guy's
Speaker 1: getting so abused and other people that talk to him
Speaker 1: are getting abused. And Rachel had said to me that
Speaker 1: people that follow her or comments on something get abused,
Speaker 1: Like we're really in this abusive culture. And he said,
Speaker 1: people have affairs, people do bad things, but this he
Speaker 1: has to live on a national stage, same with Rachel,
Speaker 1: like they have to live it on a everyone has
Speaker 1: to weigh in their opinion. And it's online bullying like
Speaker 1: abusing these people. So where's the line. Why is that? Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he cheated, it's.
Speaker 2: Bad, right, right, And maybe because he's a public public
Speaker 2: figure of sorts, so it gives him access. It gives
Speaker 2: people access to him where they where they can do
Speaker 2: that for sure. And I think that I think that
Speaker 2: we have that feeling when we could you know, they
Speaker 2: open up themselves to us. So I'm going to share
Speaker 2: my opinion, and I'm going to share how I feel,
Speaker 2: and and and and isn't that symbiotic? Don't they work
Speaker 2: that as well? If if he doesn't have an audience,
Speaker 2: then he becomes irrelevant, right.
Speaker 1: He's Yeah, it's the rose with the pedal and the thorns.
Speaker 1: You can't like you walked in to be famous, but like,
Speaker 1: I don't know where the line. I don't know where
Speaker 1: the line is. And I take a lot of ship
Speaker 1: and get beaten up pretty good too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's funny because I was I was
Speaker 2: reading I've been reading some of the comments of people
Speaker 2: have written after your podcast. Yeah, I'm trying to do
Speaker 2: a little you know, due diligence before I come on here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And one thing I have to say, you definitely get
Speaker 2: people talking, right, good, bad, angry, happy, hate, love, You
Speaker 2: definitely get people talking. And the interesting thing and I
Speaker 2: and I talk about this a lot in my practice,
Speaker 2: and I ask everybody, you know, what's the opposite of hate?
Speaker 2: It's absolutely you know, and they always say love, love
Speaker 2: and hate opposites, and they're really not, you know, they're
Speaker 2: they're very closely related. They're very strong emotions. You don't
Speaker 2: love a little you love, right, and you don't hate,
Speaker 2: you hate the they're like very close, right. So the
Speaker 2: opposite of that is apathy. It's just not difference in difference.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think when you're in the public eye,
Speaker 2: that's that's that's the worst indifference. Irrelevance is the worst, right,
Speaker 2: So so it kind of works like, you know, are
Speaker 2: these people in the reality are they really saying what
Speaker 2: they're really feeling? Are they playing that game? As you say?
Speaker 1: You know, you mean that that indifference meaning that the
Speaker 1: people don't give a shit about you. Like the fact
Speaker 1: that I get people heeded hating me or loving me
Speaker 1: is doing is being successful and being a public person,
Speaker 1: if they didn't give a shit at all, Yes, but
Speaker 1: the public person needs to be indifferent and have apathy
Speaker 1: means to like some I do. Like I was talking
Speaker 1: to this guy, Tyler Cameron. He's a guy who is
Speaker 1: from the Bachelorette. He's become very successful, he's beloved. He
Speaker 1: hates the social media aspect. He said he got anxiety
Speaker 1: for the first time ever, uh, because of reading comments
Speaker 1: and things like that. And I would say that people
Speaker 1: always ask me, and I think it might. I think this.
Speaker 1: I think it has with my childhood and seeing a
Speaker 1: lot of abuse I don't love. I get a little
Speaker 1: anxiety when something's going sideways for me because it does happen,
Speaker 1: because I do have an opinion. I'm out one of
Speaker 1: these people just posting about flowers and jelly beans and rainbows.
Speaker 1: But when that happens, I grab that wheel and like
Speaker 1: I don't hold too tight and I don't hold too loose.
Speaker 1: I just like I'm like, all right, we got something,
Speaker 1: let's fucking deal with this. So I'm not a pert
Speaker 1: or even though that when the Rachel thing, because I
Speaker 1: took on a lot of hate, and her own you know,
Speaker 1: team said to me, like, we appreciate what we saw.
Speaker 1: You took a lot of heat, like they took a
Speaker 1: lot of heat. But also one hundred percent of people
Speaker 1: hated her. Now fifty percent of people hate, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe even though so they're happy, maybe even fewer. I
Speaker 1: actually don't even think it's fifty percent. It's maybe thirty
Speaker 1: percent or something twenty. But it helped her. It gave
Speaker 1: her something to go, somewhere to go, and I have
Speaker 1: evolved into a new conversation for she was sort of
Speaker 1: stuck in like being in this mental you know facility.
Speaker 1: But they said you took on a lot of heat,
Speaker 1: which I did. But like when I get slapped in
Speaker 1: those comments, it's like a ball, a tennis ball. I
Speaker 1: just like I just I like I serve it, you know,
Speaker 1: hit it, which is.
Speaker 2: Healthy, which is which is good? You know. I like
Speaker 2: to think that I equate things with I love to eat.
Speaker 2: I'm a big eater, right, So I love chocolate. I
Speaker 2: cann have chocolate all the time. There are people in
Speaker 2: the world who I've met who actually don't like chocolate,
Speaker 2: which I don't get. I don't understand. Yeah, although those
Speaker 2: are the people I want to go out to dessert
Speaker 2: with because then they're not gonna take mine and we're good, right.
Speaker 1: So no, because they're gonna order some apple dessert. And
Speaker 1: that's more annoying because you.
Speaker 2: Don't get that it's fine, it's all.
Speaker 1: No, you don't share. So that therapy.
Speaker 2: There, right by time to be selfish when not having dessert,
Speaker 2: especially chocolate. Right, So, Okay, as good as chocolate is,
Speaker 2: as wonderful as chocolate is, even chocolate is not universally loved,
Speaker 2: right and even as wonderful as you are and wonderful
Speaker 2: as I am. Well, how can I be so narcissistic
Speaker 2: to think that I'm as good as chocolate?
Speaker 1: So I'm interesting.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be universally loved. We have to
Speaker 2: be okay with that. Yes, okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It's a great because
Speaker 1: chocolate's pretty fucking fabulous, So that's all great. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good one. But I like dark chocolate, you know.
Speaker 2: As I've gotten older.
Speaker 1: Dok, chocolate is yeah, I like, let's go all the way,
Speaker 1: do it. So have you been watching the Danny Masterson stuff.
Speaker 2: I've quite a little bit here and yes, okay, have
Speaker 2: you actually watched?
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was really enthralled with the Leah Rimoni series.
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: What a what a crusader? How brave?
Speaker 1: Amazed? I agree, that's ballsy to talk about it. And
Speaker 1: I know her. I met her when we were both
Speaker 1: pas on Saved by the Bet. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: sorry when I was a PA Unsaved by the Belt
Speaker 1: and she was a guest actress and I met her
Speaker 1: and she was very cool and she was in some
Speaker 1: shitty car and I remember thinking she was rich because
Speaker 1: she was on one week she was an actress, like
Speaker 1: going on television on a show, and she said, if
Speaker 1: eating tacos out of the back of my car is rich,
Speaker 1: then I'm rich. And I've always liked her, I've always
Speaker 1: respected her, and I actually a lot of people were
Speaker 1: saying she should come on here because I've been talking
Speaker 1: about I've been referencing her, and I know her. We
Speaker 1: respect each other. Maybe you'll come on for a little
Speaker 1: bit of it. If she comes on, because I didn't
Speaker 1: know you were such a fan. Yeah, she's really amazing.
Speaker 1: She's very real and yeah she said it. Once you
Speaker 1: say something, it's amazing, like you then have the freedom
Speaker 1: you've you've I've ripped the band aid off and now
Speaker 1: she's like, you know, fire hydrant just coming out. But
Speaker 1: this Danny Masterson thing, Oh, that's what I was gonna
Speaker 1: ask you. Do you do you deal with people victims
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse?
Speaker 2: I have, yes.
Speaker 1: Okay, So it was a very interesting ride I took
Speaker 1: with this thing because a lot of things I learned
Speaker 1: about from social media. It's like a snippet. It's not
Speaker 1: something that was on my radar. Okay. So I think
Speaker 1: that in the past I had heard that this guy
Speaker 1: from that seventy show had been had violated women or
Speaker 1: was accused of it, but it wasn't It just didn't
Speaker 1: wasn't a story I was following. I don't think the
Speaker 1: women had names or it just was something in the background.
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden last week it becomes that
Speaker 1: this guy is convicted, and literally I didn't remember when
Speaker 1: I had first read it, and I did not know
Speaker 1: this happened twenty years ago, but maybe you know. So
Speaker 1: there's a separate conversation about these women and having to
Speaker 1: endure this road of twenty years of torture in their minds,
Speaker 1: and like it's this guy's running around and he's at
Speaker 1: Starbucks and he's living a life, and he's acting on
Speaker 1: a show with Ashton Kutcher and all the ranch and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. But like when I first heard that
Speaker 1: Ashton and Mela, who by the way, made this thing
Speaker 1: much bigger, people are saying it's great almost what they did,
Speaker 1: because it made this such a topic of awareness. So
Speaker 1: even though people are very mad at them, they brought
Speaker 1: awareness to something that people would have talked about for
Speaker 1: two days and then stopped. So when I thought about
Speaker 1: the mother contacting people that knew him to reduce a
Speaker 1: sentence in and of itself. It made sense to me,
Speaker 1: like it just the concept made sense. I didn't read
Speaker 1: the stories about the girls. It wasn't human to me
Speaker 1: or personal. It just was like and everybody went crazy.
Speaker 1: And then I started doing a deeper look at it,
Speaker 1: and Christina Ricci came out and said, you know, we
Speaker 1: all know these guys that seem like awesome guys to us,
Speaker 1: that do shitty things to other people. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that they're good people because they've been nice to us.
Speaker 1: And there's so many of those guys in Hollywood that
Speaker 1: I've met, like all the me too guys I've met,
Speaker 1: really all of them. And then and then I was
Speaker 1: watching other videos of people saying how the percentage of
Speaker 1: convictions that actually happened, how small that is, And then
Speaker 1: how small the percentage of people that actually report it
Speaker 1: because they don't think, you know, and all these things
Speaker 1: that we all already know they're going to be doubted,
Speaker 1: and then a person, it's the burden on the person
Speaker 1: to prove it. And so I did a full rotation
Speaker 1: to be like, I fully get why everyone was so enraged,
Speaker 1: because it's sort of belittling something that's so hard to
Speaker 1: get done that these women fought for twenty years to
Speaker 1: get done. So I just kind of wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you about that whole thing.
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, you know, the the damage that gets done
Speaker 2: to victims is tremendous. It's tremendous. And it's not just
Speaker 2: a physical it's that the emotional damage are wounds that
Speaker 2: you know, really don't go away, get they change, they grow,
Speaker 2: but the damage is tremendous because is it becomes such
Speaker 2: a personal thing for them that they blame themselves right
Speaker 2: or they find a lot how could this have been different?
Speaker 2: What could I have done differently? They try to rewrite it.
Speaker 2: You know, we all do that with certain when bad
Speaker 2: things happen to us, we say to it, how could
Speaker 2: I have avoided? What could have done differently? And to
Speaker 2: make matters worse, they're told things many times and I
Speaker 2: don't I can't say what has happened in these cases,
Speaker 2: but many times they're told, think you deserve this, you
Speaker 2: wanted this. Their bodies could have you know, betrayed them
Speaker 2: and reacted in certain ways that think they want it,
Speaker 2: even though the right So it's very confusing for victims
Speaker 2: of this, because you know, if I didn't want this,
Speaker 2: why did my body react to it? Or why do
Speaker 2: I wear what I wore? Or you know that they
Speaker 2: said that they they look at me in a certain way,
Speaker 2: and which is sometimes okay, but not when it goes
Speaker 2: over the edge.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean before the line we're partying, we're drinking,
Speaker 1: having fun, I was wearing a sexy top and then
Speaker 1: it turned and like there's a line.
Speaker 2: Before during after matter, right, it's just and.
Speaker 1: Then why didn't I freak out and call the cops
Speaker 1: a minute after? Like whatever?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely absolutely, and and maybe didn't happen that way?
Speaker 2: And look, you know, our brain does some fascinating things
Speaker 2: when we're faced with trauma. Shuts off, right because they
Speaker 2: don't doesn't necessarily want to see it or you know,
Speaker 2: react to it that way, right, We want to shut
Speaker 2: it down. So when we shut it down, there are
Speaker 2: gaps in our memory. There are gaps and what's going
Speaker 2: to happen, And then we fill it in with what
Speaker 2: we think would have been. But that's just a conjecture.
Speaker 2: So then it's like, well, maybe I maybe I didn't
Speaker 2: fight them, and maybe I didn't you know, say no
Speaker 2: or and maybe it was. It was very clear. And
Speaker 2: there's a responsibility that I think we all have in
Speaker 2: relationships to make sure that you know that we're healthy
Speaker 2: and we're in a good place, and we're interested in
Speaker 2: what's happening, and we all want that. But I think
Speaker 2: what happens after sometimes is this lack of support that
Speaker 2: people feel or that they imagine will happen. So they
Speaker 2: don't share it, and they don't want anyone to know,
Speaker 2: so they don't tell anybody because they're they're afraid that
Speaker 2: people can say, well, you deserved it, or why did
Speaker 2: you wear that, or why did you go to his householdlone?
Speaker 2: Why did you go to a hotel room alone right
Speaker 2: and when? Or why did you leave your drink unattended?
Speaker 2: Don't you know we told you that to leave your
Speaker 2: drink unattended. My girls went off to college. I taught
Speaker 2: them this is how you hold your drink right, not
Speaker 2: like this, like this, and if someone makes a mistake,
Speaker 2: someone does this, then they may I messed up because
Speaker 2: I held my drink wrong. And so this lack of
Speaker 2: support for themselves that they give, and then they project
Speaker 2: that to other people, thinking that they're not going to
Speaker 2: support them either it's damageing that abuse happens long longer,
Speaker 2: all right, the effects have it. It's a ripple effect, right,
Speaker 2: it happens so much longer and afterwards. So it's so
Speaker 2: hard for people to come forward.
Speaker 1: Also for you to have to deal with proving it,
Speaker 1: go back and find all the ema what happened there
Speaker 1: and what time and the detail like it's on it's
Speaker 1: dumped on the person that it happened to because they
Speaker 1: have to figure it out.
Speaker 3: And I had.
Speaker 1: Experience with the situation where I had to be a
Speaker 1: lawyer with multiple books and multiple you know, and the
Speaker 1: burden is on you. And but what you were saying
Speaker 1: is interesting. It's there's something that happens with people. Well
Speaker 1: two things. One, there's like a reflex that you have
Speaker 1: about the way that you feel about yourself that's not normal,
Speaker 1: and you intellectually know that it's not right. Like let's
Speaker 1: say for years someone told you you were disgusting or
Speaker 1: something about you like or uh, you left the house
Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes, so you're a bad parent or stuff like,
Speaker 1: even though it's ridiculous that you know, but if someone
Speaker 1: like tells you or does something to you, love long
Speaker 1: enough you start you have like a reflex that thinks
Speaker 1: that that's real, and it takes a long time to
Speaker 1: shake that up. It's not something you can just have
Speaker 1: even a professional say to you that's not correct, and
Speaker 1: you're just gonna be like, okay, now, I think deffinitely.
Speaker 2: It's like have Lovian, Yeah, well we we have a
Speaker 2: confirmation bias, right, So you know, confirmation bias is super interesting,
Speaker 2: and then it's it's it's pretty hard to buy out of,
Speaker 2: to get out of. So the confirmation bias is if
Speaker 2: I have a feeling about who I am, if I
Speaker 2: have an idea about anything, and you can see that
Speaker 2: with our political system right now, how separate our political
Speaker 2: system is. So if I have a feeling about anything
Speaker 2: about who I am, I only look at information that's
Speaker 2: going to confirm that and I'm going to ignore any
Speaker 2: information that might refute it. And so that can go
Speaker 2: either way. So if I feel like I'm a piece
Speaker 2: of shit, I'm going to find things. I'm going to
Speaker 2: see things, eyes be wide open for evidence to support.
Speaker 1: That ape.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, or like yeah, I got a
Speaker 2: speeding to I'm not a good person, or yeah, late,
Speaker 2: I'm not a good person or whatever it is, or
Speaker 2: I left my kid home for fifteen minutes, I'm not
Speaker 2: a good person, and all these different things they build up,
Speaker 2: and the fact that you know I'm doing this and
Speaker 2: I'm doing that that is good and I'm taking care
Speaker 2: of this. These people that are good fly out the window.
Speaker 2: They don't matter because it doesn't conform to this confirmation
Speaker 2: bias that I have, this bias I have that I'm
Speaker 2: not good.
Speaker 1: Well. I also thought about this thing being the victim
Speaker 1: of any type of abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, any
Speaker 1: kind of abuse that people don't always want to say
Speaker 1: something because of how it affects other people around them.
Speaker 1: How is it affecting your job and what they think
Speaker 1: of you, How is it affecting if you have a
Speaker 1: kid who's in school, How you'd like in any situation
Speaker 1: in a family dynamic. I don't think that's discussed enough.
Speaker 1: It's like, why didn't you say something? Or you should
Speaker 1: use your voice, or this person finally opened up, and
Speaker 1: that's some people hold things in, Like some people are
Speaker 1: physically abused, but they don't want to embarrass their kid
Speaker 1: and say it because will then know that one parent
Speaker 1: or emotionally abuse it because of the kid like and
Speaker 1: while it's great to protect kids, it's hard to know
Speaker 1: what line to follow. Are you going to open your
Speaker 1: mouth because you also can help other people, or are
Speaker 1: you going to put you one child and what they
Speaker 1: might think over all the other people. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of things to navigate. And just even with this
Speaker 1: these girls with the Danny Masterson thing, because they were
Speaker 1: affecting their parents and the religion their parents. In this situation,
Speaker 1: the girl is estrange now from her mother because her
Speaker 1: mother's in scientology and you're trained that you're not to report.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and from what I understand, also scientology doesn't believe
Speaker 2: in psychology, so you couldn't go from you know, from
Speaker 2: mental health assistance either.
Speaker 1: Oh wow is that true? Wow?
Speaker 2: I believe. I believe. So you know that that kind
Speaker 2: of stuck out on me. He's like, oh, well, I
Speaker 2: guess I'm not included. I'm not invited. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, wow, so was It's a very very eye
Speaker 1: opening thing. And also what it would feel like for
Speaker 1: twenty years for the girls. Like I said, the guy
Speaker 1: was walking free. Like I said, He's going to Starbucks,
Speaker 1: ordering a latte, living a life. He has a wife,
Speaker 1: he has kids. He's just living a life. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it wasn't as easy since he was accused, but a
Speaker 1: lot of people, you're a free person, you know.
Speaker 2: It's it's even more than that for them, I would think,
Speaker 2: because people who are traumatized and they have abusers, they
Speaker 2: see them in the corner of their eye, in the
Speaker 2: shadows all the time, right, They see them constantly. When
Speaker 2: they're not there, they see them, they feel it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I.
Speaker 2: Can't imagine what that must have been like for these
Speaker 2: women to not only have that, but also this tremendous,
Speaker 2: tremendously large and powerful, wealthy organization behind him. Jesus, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they follow me too, are they? You know? Now? Who's that?
Speaker 1: And who's Oh wow, now you're wrong, right wow? From
Speaker 1: a house by the way, they could be thinking. They
Speaker 1: could still be thinking that now.
Speaker 2: They absolutely could still be thinking that now. So that's
Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying a lot of times, this this
Speaker 2: type of abuse, the sexual abuse assault, it's not a
Speaker 2: one time thing. Even if it is a one time,
Speaker 2: it continues, it continues, and and that's what makes this
Speaker 2: so damaging. It's so difficult to manage and to grow from.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that cross is gender. It's not just you
Speaker 2: know men, men have been sexually assaulted also, right, and
Speaker 2: it follows them as well. It's difficult for them as well. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's it's not we don't we don't hear so
Speaker 2: much about it.
Speaker 1: That's even worse because that's even more secretive. That's going
Speaker 1: to be worse.
Speaker 2: You hear about something doesn't mean it's not there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's got to because that's more that's a
Speaker 1: different level of shame. It's not as common, So that's
Speaker 1: a different level of shame. Yeah, that's that's very interesting,
Speaker 1: and I would imagine that they feel some level of vindication, validation.
Speaker 1: And people always say, if you're holding on to anger
Speaker 1: is like drinking poison, hope the other person dies. I
Speaker 1: think in situations it is, but I think in those
Speaker 1: situations there's a comfort to it. I think when you're like,
Speaker 1: you know that that ultimately that person got what they deserve,
Speaker 1: and like you kind of live in that. I don't
Speaker 1: know what about that.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. That's hard to say, you know,
Speaker 2: and hard to say what's healthier what's not? I guess
Speaker 2: I guess the proof will be in the pudding. For them,
Speaker 2: And that's probably a very personal thing. When you said that,
Speaker 2: I thought back. I once saw an interview of a
Speaker 2: Holocaust survivor and it was this Obviously, she was an
Speaker 2: older woman and she had suffered immensely in a concentration
Speaker 2: and concentration camp that she's five, and she said, if
Speaker 2: I had the opportunity to talk to the commandant, I
Speaker 2: would forgive him. I would forget. I don't want to
Speaker 2: hold on to that hate. If I hold on to
Speaker 2: that hate, it's going to keep me there, and it's
Speaker 2: going to keep me miserable and angry and upset and
Speaker 2: sad and all these things. And I just want to
Speaker 2: forgive so I can move on. And God, I mean, listen,
Speaker 2: god blasphem. If you're asking me if I could do
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 1: No, yeah, And I think there are levels like active mean,
Speaker 1: hate is different than like smug, being smug, like reveling
Speaker 1: in the fact that someone got with a fucking deserve,
Speaker 1: because that I like, I would be like that if
Speaker 1: I were those girls, and I would be like that
Speaker 1: forever and there would be no amount, but I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be like every day thinking of that. But that's how
Speaker 1: I feel. That's why I was so wrong to even
Speaker 1: entertain that letter and what Mila and Ashton did, because
Speaker 1: I then put myself in the position and I'd want
Speaker 1: him to get the worst possible treatment in jail, and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want him to die because it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: enough suffering. So maybe that woman is way more evolved
Speaker 1: than I am. But well, I see that change.
Speaker 2: I think she's way more involved than most of us,
Speaker 2: you know. I think, say, listen, we would never never
Speaker 2: too late for us to evolve and to grow right
Speaker 2: and too And I think that that's the ultimate thing
Speaker 2: is apathy, is that you know what I'm You're not
Speaker 2: part of my life anymore. You can't hurt me anymore,
Speaker 2: You're not important to me anymore. Yeah, that's right, and
Speaker 2: that there's something to aspire to, right. That's hard, that's
Speaker 2: hard to do, hard to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think there's a whole thing though, too,
Speaker 1: with like it happens in obviously hedge funds and lawyers
Speaker 1: in every industry. It happens in industry. I've seen it
Speaker 1: firsthand with entertainment. People really feel that they're untouchable and
Speaker 1: the power and the money and the smugness and the
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein types and all of those guys that you know,
Speaker 1: I've been I've been to a dinner with Harvey Weinstein
Speaker 1: where he's bragging about how he you know, Michelle and
Speaker 1: Barack Obama used to call him at night and have
Speaker 1: him come to the you know, send over a movie
Speaker 1: for them to screen late night at the White House.
Speaker 1: And he's like, and Leo, who was sitting right there
Speaker 1: was and Leo and he and I when we did
Speaker 1: this movie and we won the award in j Lo
Speaker 1: and Best and he loved it all like name dropping
Speaker 1: and Gwynneth and this one, and like he thought he
Speaker 1: was so hot. Ship right, Well, how much you talk
Speaker 1: about cancel culture, it's not really in your business. You're
Speaker 1: not really talking to entertainers.
Speaker 2: There is definitely that conflict that we're in, right, We're
Speaker 2: supposed to be so open and free and be you
Speaker 2: and body positivity and all that, but yet there's a
Speaker 2: whole clash of other things. And and I think that
Speaker 2: we we we are going through as a as a society,
Speaker 2: as as people kind of going through this growing pains
Speaker 2: of who we want to be and how we want
Speaker 2: to be or how accepting do we want to be
Speaker 2: really and that is that push pull. It's hard, It's
Speaker 2: definitely hard, and it's it's so sad. I heard something
Speaker 2: on the media the other day that family members aren't
Speaker 2: talking to each other because of politics, right, because of health? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and how awful is that that you're that you're a fan,
Speaker 2: you lose a family member because you don't agree politically
Speaker 2: with their guy. I think I think that so much
Speaker 2: of it if we look at why now, right, Why
Speaker 2: is it now? Why is it not before? Because I
Speaker 2: think we've gone through things like this before, but it's
Speaker 2: it does feel different now. It feels more severe. You know,
Speaker 2: you know, you say you are what you eat, right,
Speaker 2: If you eat healthy, you're going to be healthy. Well,
Speaker 2: I think that we have to be very careful what
Speaker 2: we digest in the media, what news we're digesting. And
Speaker 2: this twenty four news cycle.
Speaker 1: What's no one does everyone says that was what I'm
Speaker 1: saying about reality TV. You fight in the ocean. No
Speaker 1: one's going to do that.
Speaker 2: That's the problem, right, because because then we we just
Speaker 2: listen to these talking heads that feed us information and
Speaker 2: we don't really think critically about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But first of all, it used to be that
Speaker 1: journalists had to have multiple sources that were verified. Right now,
Speaker 1: anybody can just say. A source said, if you're reading
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair or like People magazine or The New York Times,
Speaker 1: they have to have legitimate sources. They have a legal department.
Speaker 1: I don't know why it differs and why everybody doesn't
Speaker 1: have to have that. But if you're reading other magazines
Speaker 1: or blog, there's no A source said, you could be
Speaker 1: the sore. I could be, like anybody could be. So
Speaker 1: a source said, who's usually their publicists? Their sister, their mother,
Speaker 1: their brother, their publicist, right, their their agent or.
Speaker 2: Famous line, what's the famous preamble to any A lot
Speaker 2: of people are.
Speaker 1: Saying they they they well know, but TikTok now what's
Speaker 1: going on is TikTok and Instagram their journalist? These are
Speaker 1: citizens journalists. These are people and a lot of them
Speaker 1: are smart, and a lot of them do their research.
Speaker 1: You know what they're talking about, but a lot of
Speaker 1: them don't. So people are just sitting here and they're reporters.
Speaker 1: They become reporters, but they have a million followers. They're
Speaker 1: reporting on different types of news, entertainment, politics, cars, watches, whatever.
Speaker 1: But there their people I listen to what some of
Speaker 1: them say. It's insane, So I guess you're right. It's
Speaker 1: the same thing with NoHo to trust.
Speaker 2: I don't listen to. But there's no nutrition label on
Speaker 2: things that we read, right.
Speaker 1: Well, no, and also it's confirmation bias. You're listening to
Speaker 1: people that say things you want to hear back.
Speaker 2: To your point, absolutely, and that's too.
Speaker 1: Well, that's why when we were growing up, not to
Speaker 1: be like back and mind it. When we were growing up,
Speaker 1: the news wasn't what it is now, where you'll have
Speaker 1: like a person on CNN and be like like about
Speaker 1: something about about Trump or over on Fox News, they're
Speaker 1: like chuckling, you know, like how Megan Megan Kelly were
Speaker 1: like that moron. You know, like it's not it wasn't
Speaker 1: like that we were growing up. It was more, you know, moderate,
Speaker 1: It wasn't like it's just you turn on to Fox
Speaker 1: if you want people to bash everybody on CNN or
Speaker 1: Biden and just make fun of him, and you turn
Speaker 1: on to CNN and to see people make fun of Trump.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, and it's not and
Speaker 2: it's not just us anymore because where you know, there
Speaker 2: are other foreign nationals we're getting involved, right, And who's
Speaker 2: social media is so interesting? Who's real, who's not?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: Our bots what aren't? Right? So where are we getting
Speaker 2: our information and getting your information from. I have had
Speaker 2: conversations with people, and sometimes I'll engage up my patients
Speaker 2: and you know, just and I and I do it
Speaker 2: with playful banter. I try to as much as I
Speaker 2: possibly can. And I'm a big teaser, so I'll tease
Speaker 2: them about it. But when I hear them say certain things,
Speaker 2: well I'll quote somebody. I'll say, that's really interesting. Where'd
Speaker 2: you get that? Let's go to that quote. Let's find
Speaker 2: that quote. Let's look for that study that they quoted.
Speaker 2: Let's find we find the study. Let's read the study.
Speaker 2: I'll read it with you. Well, I say that quote
Speaker 2: is from a lot of times that the quote is
Speaker 2: from the hypothesis of the study. It's not the reason
Speaker 2: the study. And you can say anything you want and
Speaker 2: a hypothesis because it's a question.
Speaker 1: Well, when we were growing up, I think that things
Speaker 1: like college, the concept of going to college and the
Speaker 1: purity of that process seemed legitimate, and so the concept
Speaker 1: of politics seemed not fair. It was always like mud slinging,
Speaker 1: but you kind of thought there were two candidates. You
Speaker 1: could really get an understanding from the three channels on
Speaker 1: television of who they were, and it wasn't like a
Speaker 1: lot of propaganda and marketing. And the reason I say
Speaker 1: both of those areas is because drugs, big pharma, all
Speaker 1: of it. But like with college, the colleges that when
Speaker 1: I was in college were for morons, I mean you
Speaker 1: literally they were known that you would have to just
Speaker 1: sign your name on the SAT and you could get
Speaker 1: in are now good schools. I don't think that the
Speaker 1: education is that different. I think it's the money and
Speaker 1: the marketing. So what I'm saying is like you're voting,
Speaker 1: but you're voting based on marketing campaigns because the more
Speaker 1: things you've heard about something, you're just it's just like
Speaker 1: a commercial. So it's like, why are you buying the
Speaker 1: air mez bag over the Chanel bag because of the
Speaker 1: marketing campaign, like it's not because of the actual construction
Speaker 1: of the leather. So I think it's scary because people
Speaker 1: don't realize that it's not that easy to really get
Speaker 1: good information because it's marketing. Marketing is massive. Everything is marketing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I'm proud of saying some of a girl, dad,
Speaker 2: I know those two bags.
Speaker 1: Oh good, good, good good. Your wife would want you
Speaker 1: to know too. So what do you think about people
Speaker 1: who've gone people who are going through a nasty breakup
Speaker 1: or uh, infidelity or something really toxic living under the
Speaker 1: same roof? What circumstances and what circumstances Would that be
Speaker 1: a good idea?
Speaker 2: Would they be a good idea?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Not too many. I hope it's a big roof, A
Speaker 2: big what a big roof?
Speaker 1: Oh big?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. You know, it's it's
Speaker 2: interesting because I have been involved with high conflict families. Yes,
Speaker 2: and you see this dynamic that occurs where they they
Speaker 2: it may be both, maybe one party, it may it
Speaker 2: may not be both, but they don't want to let go.
Speaker 2: They don't want to let go. Remember what I said,
Speaker 2: the opposite of love isn't isn't hate? Right, They want
Speaker 2: to be relevant and they want to stay in that
Speaker 2: person's life. So if I can't get you to love me,
Speaker 2: I'll get you to hate me because I'm still I'm
Speaker 2: still getting you.
Speaker 1: You're still in the game, still on the ride, I'm.
Speaker 2: Still in it. I'm still in it, and you're still
Speaker 2: in it with me, and that's really difficult to break out.
Speaker 2: You know what. You define yourself as part of that
Speaker 2: relationship and really in that relationship, and you never want
Speaker 2: to leave it, and even when you hate that person,
Speaker 2: you don't want to leave it because they're part of
Speaker 2: your life and you don't want to give that out.
Speaker 2: Now that happens with kids, without kids, with business, without business,
Speaker 2: with finances with it, with finances are involved or not,
Speaker 2: it's very hard people to give that up. They don't
Speaker 2: want to more in that loss for whatever reason. And
Speaker 2: then we could definitely talk about that more, because that's
Speaker 2: a lot, that's a big that's a that's a lot.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, because for me, I feel like if
Speaker 1: you genuinely, if it's really emotionally unhealthy for you and
Speaker 1: there's been something really toxic, I my experience is that
Speaker 1: the only reason that someone would stay would be for
Speaker 1: financial reasons they can't afford to leave, or that there's
Speaker 1: that abandonment issue with the courts will say that one
Speaker 1: party abandoned by leaving the house, because you're not.
Speaker 2: Discounting for sure, right absolutely, but sometimes psychologically there are
Speaker 2: other things involved and then the personal involved. We didn't
Speaker 2: be aware of that.
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say, it's underlying.
Speaker 2: Ok. I'd love to talk more about that future.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Okay, Well, yeah, there's there's divorced stuff. I've dabbled
Speaker 1: in talking about doing a divorce show, so you know,
Speaker 1: we could talk about that more, like different divorce topics.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Matt, talking you did great? Oh, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you great, really good conversation.
Speaker 2: Excellent take care.
Speaker 1: Doctor Matt was great. I really you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous game for people like me to just
Speaker 1: opine if I have influence and if people are gonna
Speaker 1: think what I'm saying is true, and I know people
Speaker 1: will argue with me. And I'm not saying he knows everything,
Speaker 1: but he's a trained professional h on a lot of
Speaker 1: the matters in life and popular culture that we talk about.
Speaker 1: So I think it's good to weigh in with someone
Speaker 1: about some of the things that I've talked about with
Speaker 1: you and just check in. You know, it's it's good
Speaker 1: you hear your own voice, the voices inside your own head.
Speaker 1: That's a very dangerous game. So even and when we
Speaker 1: talk about things that are in popular culture, it's not
Speaker 1: like to gossip, it's what does it mean? Meaning? The
Speaker 1: Ashton Kutcher and Mila thing made me learn something. Maybe
Speaker 1: the Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas divorce made me learn something.
Speaker 1: Maybe the way Megan and Harry act in their lives
Speaker 1: lives make me learn something. The Kardashian what you know?
Speaker 1: So it's good to use these popular culture sure of
Speaker 1: things that we all know about and think we have
Speaker 1: knowledge about to learn. So I think that that's you know,
Speaker 1: there weren't the advand of Pump of it all, all
Speaker 1: of it, So I thought it was great