1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week elections, electrification and 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: energy storage. Over the past few weeks, I've had the 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: pleasure of traveling to Singapore and Australia, visiting startups, companies, 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: and even the Great Barrier REEF to meet the people 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: behind some of the most pioneering climate solutions coming out 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 1: of these regions. We'll be playing some of those interviews 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: on Zero over the next few weeks, and we begin 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: in Sydney where I met Ian Leermanth. He's the chief 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: executive officer of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, or the CEFC, 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: which describes itself as the world's largest green bank. The 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: CEFC was set up by the Labor Greens coalition government 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve with an initial funding of ten billion 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Australian dollars or six and a half billion US too. 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: It was tasked with financing green projects at a time 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,279 Speaker 1: when large scale investments in things like wind and solar 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: were seen as too risky for many private players. As 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: uncontroversial as that might sound today, it almost never happened. 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: The CFC was nearly shut down in twenty thirteen when 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: the climate skeptic Liberal National coalition government took power with 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: a campaign promise of closing the bank. There was a 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: lot of drama, but the fatal event didn't come to pass. Now, 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: the CFC has become a big part of the energy 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: transition in Australia, with over twelve and a half billion 24 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: dollars invested to date. In twenty twenty two, the CFC 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: celebrated its tenth year and its star is still rising. 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: It has just received twenty and a half billion Australian 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: dollars from the government to accelerate the country's energy transition. 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: For context, last year, the country's total investment in all 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: things energy transition was about twenty three billion Australian dollars. 30 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: This new cash injection is the first in a decade, 31 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: and bills on what became known as Australia's Climate elections, 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: which took place in May twenty twenty two. We covered 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: those elections in an episode we published last year, which 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: we'll put in the show notes. But to cut a 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: long story short, a wave of new independent politicians campaigned 36 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: successfully on tackling climate change, and a climate progressive labor 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: government took over from the incumbent climate skeptic government. Since then, 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: the government has been busy passing some ambitious climate policies, 39 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: including a target for the country to reach eighty two 40 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: percent renewable electricity by twenty thirty, up from a little 41 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: over thirty percent today. It's a massive undertaking and the 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: CFC has been tasked with distributing billions of dollars to 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: make it happen. Today I'm zero. I talked with Ian 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: about how this huge amount of money will be spent, 45 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: why the CEFC had so many enemies early on, and 46 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: what kind of innovative start up and fintech projects. Ian 47 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: is looking diffund Ian, Welcome to the show. Nice to 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: be here and we are joining you at an exciting time. 49 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: The CFC has just been given a massive new round 50 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: of cash to invest. But first, can you give us 51 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: the context of why the CFC was created and what 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: its purpose has become? 53 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 2: Certainly so, the CFC was created just over ten years 54 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: ago by the Australian government. The Labor government at the 55 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: time was forming a coalition with Greens and the Greens 56 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: said we want a green bank. It was a prescient 57 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: move by the politicians at the time and we had 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: ten bin in Australian dollars to invest in renewable energy, 59 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: energy efficiency, lower mission technologies. 60 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: We could do debt, we could do equity. 61 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: We'll hear more about equity and debt as we go 62 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: through this episode. So a quick explainer, Equity is the 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: money you can put into a company in exchange for shares. 64 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: Debt is a little more conservative effectively alone to the company, 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: which the company has to pay back with interest. The 66 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: CFC is able to invest money both as equity and 67 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: as debt. 68 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: We had to invest in Australia otherwise we were kind 69 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: of on our own scenes. So it really came out 70 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: of I guess, you know, the motivation of the government 71 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: at the time to have capital, very substantial capital, certainly 72 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: relative to Strategy DP, to invest in climate change, carbon 73 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 2: abatement and the clin energy transition. 74 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: Now, in that ten years political change in Australia has 75 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: been quite substantial. There have been swings left and right, 76 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: and of course politics of climate around the world has 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: become more polarized. The CFC came under lots of criticism 78 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: from the opposition when it was first created. How close 79 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: did it come to being shut down. 80 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: Within a whisker? 81 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: It was really close, because not long after we were 82 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: set up, and it took it. It takes a year 83 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: or more for something of this scale to be put together. 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 2: And by that time there was an election in came 85 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: a new coalition government, a kind of conservative government, and 86 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: one of their undertakings was to shut down the CEFC 87 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: because they saw it as symbolic of one of the 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: kind of bargaining chips that kept them out of power 89 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: in the previous election. So they put up a couple 90 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: of abolition bills. This is when the CFC was in 91 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: its early days and out there trying to write its 92 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: first project finance deals and wind farms and other things, 93 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: and they struggled to get it through the upper house 94 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: here in Australia, through the Senate, and there was at 95 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: the time a guy called Clive Palmer, very kind of 96 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: quite a divisive character. Clive Palmer to be run in 97 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: the country. 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 3: He can work. 99 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: If it can't work, it can't be private this. Claive 100 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: Farmer is a billionaire businessman and a former member of 101 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Parliament who made his fortune in mining, mostly iron and call. 102 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: After the twenty thirteen elections, the party he founded held 103 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: the balance of part in Australia Senate. Which played a 104 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: crucial role in keeping the CFC alive in the face 105 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: of attacks from the ruling Liberal National Coalition. 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: He had control of the Upper House at the time. 107 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: I don't know whether he was unsure about which way 108 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: he was going to go. Al Gore happened to be 109 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: in town. Someone put them together. Al said, hey, let's 110 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: I think it's really important that you vote against the 111 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: abolition bill. They held a press conference and the rest 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: is history. And funnily enough, I reminded al Gore of 113 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: that just about when I started six years ago, and 114 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: he still remembered it very fondly. So yes, we were 115 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: within a whisker of being abolished. 116 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: What is the CFC's relationship with government now? 117 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: It's interesting. 118 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 2: I mean, we always play a very straight hand with 119 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: these with governments. We have a responsible Minister of the day, 120 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: and for nine years we had Coalition or Liberal and 121 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: National Government representatives or ministers as our responsible ministers. So 122 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: we do as directed in a sense, although it's important 123 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: to note that the CFC Act says that no minister 124 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: can tell the CFC what deal to do and what 125 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: deal not to do, so there's a very strong sense 126 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: of independence with the new government who have been empowered 127 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: just over a year now they have you know, they 128 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: obviously have a quite a different gender. You know, they 129 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: are embracing the CFC in in a much great way. 130 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: They've changed our Act first time really ever to say 131 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: that not only do we have the object of creating 132 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: in funds into the clean energy sector, but we are 133 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: to deliver on their climate ambitions, which of course is 134 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: to reduce emissions by forty three percent by twenty thirty 135 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: competed to two thousand and five, and through the investment mandate, 136 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: also helped get to twenty two percent renewables by twenty thirty, 137 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: so that has been a very significant thing. And of course, 138 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, the twenty in fact twenty point five billion, 139 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: just not to forget that last five hundred million of 140 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: additional funds have been appropriate to us. So yes, they 141 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: see us as a very significant platform to deliver on 142 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: their climate policy. 143 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: Now thirty two percent to eighty two percent renewables in 144 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: the electricity mix within a span of seven years. 145 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: It's a big challenge and you are identifying something that 146 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: does of course speculated widely in the Australian media. We're 147 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: up to the challenge we're going to do everything we 148 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: can to help the country get to that place, but 149 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: we don't shy away from the obstacles and the challenges, 150 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: and I think we. 151 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: All know what they are. 152 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: Inflationary pressures, grid connection challenges, the supply chain, the cost 153 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: of money has gone up, all those issues and social license. 154 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Of course, when you're you know, your building out, particularly 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 2: wind farms on shore, and you're building transmission, you're going 156 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: to get people who are acutely interested in where it's 157 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: going because it might be across the bottom paddic and 158 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: they might want to talk about that. Of course, So 159 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: there are all those things. But we've got a vast 160 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: amounts of capital, we've got the States putting their shoulder 161 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: to the wheel as well, So a lot of work 162 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,239 Speaker 2: to be done. But yes, it is a big challenge. 163 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: So the target here is to try and focus on 164 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: renewable deployment. But the climate challenge is really an emissions challenge, 165 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: and building clean energy will help reduce emissions, no doubt. 166 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: There are other ways in which you also have to 167 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: reduce emissions. Australia could build nuclear, it could build carbon capture. 168 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: Those are not things you fund. 169 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: Why when the CFC was established. 170 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: The negotiations with the political parties, the Greens and Labor 171 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: decided they were two technologies that the clein Energy Finance 172 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: Corporation will and invest in. It was generally a feeling, 173 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: I think with carbon capture and storage that it could 174 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: potentially be used in a way to extend the life 175 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: of colified power stations, so that I think was something 176 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: that discouraged the Greens. So I mean having said that, 177 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: we haven't seen necessarily any great opportunities in that space 178 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: to date. And nuclear of course is whilst a conversation 179 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: in Australia is still. 180 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 3: A long way off I think being a reality. 181 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: What's different about this twenty point five billion dollars relative 182 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: to the money you already manage. 183 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the first ten as I say, has had 184 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: a very broad remit and you know we've invested right 185 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: across the economy with it. That twenty point five has 186 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: broken up into three different categories. Nineteen billion is part 187 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: of the Rewiring the Nation funding, which is the government's 188 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: policy to build out transmission to help reach eighty two 189 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: percent renewables by twenty thirty and that's building out poles 190 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: and wires across the countryside capture winds, soulard storage long 191 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: duration batteries like Snowy two point zero. 192 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: Snowy two point zero is a hydro electricity generation and 193 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: storage project being built in the Snowy Mountains in Southeast Australia. 194 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: In November twenty twenty, the CEFC invested one hundred and 195 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: twenty five million Australian dollars to help build out grid 196 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: infrastructure and transmission lines for Snowy two point er, which 197 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: is due to open in twenty twenty nine. 198 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: So nineteen billion dollars for the rewiring the nation and 199 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: with probably more direct instructions if you like, than the 200 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: first ten billion, which is very much you're on your 201 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: own out there in the economy. A further billion dollars 202 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: for a housing Energy Upgrade Fund, which is to use 203 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: that money with intermediary banks and securitization houses and other 204 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: credit unions other non bank lenders to help provide low 205 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 2: cost finance to allow people to renovate their homes and 206 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: improve energy efficiency in the home. And then the last 207 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: half a billion dollars is for equity investments either directly 208 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: or through funds in growing interesting Australian companies with innovative 209 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: clean tech companies. 210 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: It's one thing to get to eighty two percent renewables, 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: to build wind and solar. We know that getting to 212 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: that level of penetration requires them to be connected and 213 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: that requires huge cables. And everywhere democratic governments have traded 214 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: to do it, they've been met with opposition. It's no 215 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: different here in Australia. So what is being done to 216 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: overcome the opposition to transmission lines? 217 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a very good question. 218 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 2: And as you say, Australia's embarking on literally thousands and 219 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: thousands of kilometers of transmission, and the state governments and 220 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: the federal government are acutely aware that there is a 221 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: very significant social license question around that we haven't built 222 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: transmission like this in a decade. So for many farmers 223 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 2: having these transmission lines potentially go through their land is 224 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: a real challenge. So there's a whole lot of engagement. 225 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 3: That's going on. 226 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 2: There's a massive sort of social license strategy that's been 227 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: devised to see how we can that this transmission can 228 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: be built. Can it be in the least intrusive way 229 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 2: in the right places. Maybe it even needs to go underground. 230 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: Obviously that's far more expensive and we're going to have 231 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: to look at this compensation. Some of the states have 232 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: come out with reasonably generous compensation packages. 233 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: Although that may be debated by a. 234 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: Farmer who may say that's not sufficient. So I hope 235 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: that it doesn't add many years onto the buildout of 236 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: rewarring the nation, but it will look it will be 237 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: a little bit of a bumpy ride. But you know 238 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: we are as the financier to many of these big projects, 239 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: we are also extremely sensitive to it. 240 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: So going down that list, then a billion dollars for 241 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: the household energy upgrades? What are they and how exactly 242 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: will you deplay it? 243 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: The finishing touches on the policy are still being made, 244 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: but the broad understanding and policy objective is to help 245 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: Australian households mayhap certainly have access to low cost finance 246 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: so they can go out and double glaze their windows, 247 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: they can electrify their homes so get rid of gas 248 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: put in induction heating and cooking, those sorts of things 249 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: to improve energy efficiency kind of in the home and idea, 250 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: and of course reduce power bills. As a result, the 251 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: government would also like there to be a particular focus 252 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: on middle to low income households because they see that's kind. 253 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: Of where the need is. 254 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: So we're in the process of talking to the financial sector, 255 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: you know, the sort of people who who have a 256 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: consumer finance reach whereby we can you know, we can 257 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: get to these people. And we're also talking to industry 258 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: and regulators to talk about what standards should we require 259 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: before this cheap finance is made available, and making sure 260 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: that if people are going into Australian homes and installing 261 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: various pieces of equipment technology, that they are fit for purpose. 262 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: So we are in the process of developing all. 263 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: That and then the last five hundred million dollars, which 264 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: is to try and invest in companies and technologies that 265 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: Australia can grow. You've had some experience doing that already. 266 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: What have you learned from that past experience that you 267 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: would apply for a larger sum of money that's going 268 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: to be invested in front of your technologies. 269 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: You're right. 270 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: We have been in that business for some time and 271 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: we've probably for well over six and a half years 272 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: or so. We have invested in a very exciting and 273 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: interesting portfolio of innovative companies, effectively clean tech, benure capital 274 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: and a terrific team, which we've now partly spun out 275 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: for and Ventures, who are a very exciting clean tech manager, 276 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: very much still connected to the organization, and they're kind 277 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: of raising their first funds. But I guess what we've 278 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: learned when we look at the twenty seven or so 279 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: companies that we've invested in over the years. 280 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: I mean some obvious things that not. 281 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: Everyone will get past the valley of death, as they say, 282 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: which is when you know your cash flow negative and 283 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: trained to get to break even. Some of the technologies 284 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: will struggle to reach a commercial phase, and you know, 285 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: you've got to kind of make a decision about whether 286 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: you continue to support those companies. 287 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: Or you let them go. 288 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: There'll be some that will roll along quite comfortably and 289 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: then you'll have your starts of course that will shine 290 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: and you'll continue to support them with what they refer 291 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: to us follow on rounds, and you know at some 292 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: point there'll be hopefully a liquidity event, there'll be a 293 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: trade sale or an IPO. Venture capital is a numbers game. 294 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: You've got to try and make sure that every day 295 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: is a good one. Even though you can't predict the future, 296 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 2: you have to manage them very actively. It's hugely labor intensive. 297 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: Of course, there's probably two out of three or three 298 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: out of four of our investments we have a board 299 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: seat on. There's a very high engagement with these companies. 300 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: But I guess one thing that I've been incredibly impressed 301 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: by is the ingenuity and just the innovation in the 302 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: Australian clinic sector, particularly around sectors like distributed energy, solar 303 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: and the household batteries and even in agriculture, things that 304 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: Australia is very strong on, and that's very exciting. We 305 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: look forward to using this additional half a billion dollars 306 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: to make further investments across that sector. 307 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: Are there examples of startups that just shin or stand 308 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: out or are sort of the diversity that Australia has 309 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: to offer, because the nice thing about technology is they 310 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: don't have to remain in Australia. 311 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely right. 312 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: And maybe just to pick one or two, there's a 313 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 2: next generation solar panel company called Sunman, which has come 314 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 2: out of the extraordinary alumni of the University of New 315 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: South Wales. And Sunman makes an ultra light solar PV panel. 316 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: It's about a seventh of the weight of a conventional 317 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: glass topped panel and it as already flourishing. It's selling 318 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: into many markets Australia, Europe, North America. We've had companies 319 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: like Zumo, which is an electric buy company that doing 320 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 2: last mild delivery sundry that's looking at replacing the silver 321 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: that's used in solar PV with copper and maintaining there 322 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: or thereabouts the same efficiency but considerably cheaper. There's also 323 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: agriculture technologies in that AC sector, like Lowing Buyer, which 324 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: is a soil carbon company which is growing rapidly and 325 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: has huge amounts of support. There's software companies that are 326 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: regulating the flows of power in the home. A wide 327 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: variety of very exciting companies. 328 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: After the break, what lessons can other countries learn from 329 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: the CFC and why is Australia betting big on batteries. 330 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: In Junior also announced one hundred million dollar investment in 331 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: the super Battery, the largest standby network battery in the 332 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: Southern Hemisphere. Could we use this as a case study 333 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: of how the CFC chooses what to finance and how 334 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: much money it ends up giving them. 335 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 336 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: The Watch super Battery was the largest battery to be 337 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 2: built in New South Wales, the largest Australia possibly the 338 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: world for a short period of time when someone else 339 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: will ever take it. It was being developed by an 340 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: exciting new company called a Kaisha who had some mixed 341 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: Tesla execs and had recently been a by black Rock, 342 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: so they had a terrific pedigree of players, knew what 343 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 2: they were doing. They had a contract for part of 344 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 2: the capacity with the new South Wales government. It was 345 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: going to provide some very significant grid stability and reliability, 346 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: which is sort of incredibly important to us. So we 347 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: have kind of come in as as one hundred million 348 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: dollar equity investor in what's a very substantial investment, a 349 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: billion dollars all up the capitol, and it gives us 350 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: I guess you know one. I think the CFC's name 351 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: attached to as an investor helped their fundraising and help 352 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: crowd in other investors. It gave us a ringside seat 353 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 2: at the biggest battery in the country. Also predicted to 354 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: make a reasonably good return, and we obviously keep an 355 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: eye on that because we do seek to make a 356 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: return these days at about two to three percent above 357 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: the five year government bond rate, so we try and 358 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 2: make a good return to tax pus whilst abating carbon emissions. 359 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: Here in Australia, that investment mandate to try and get 360 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: two to three percent return above the bond rate is 361 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: written into the law that created CFC, But according to 362 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: the National Audit Office, it has failed to keep up 363 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: with that return so far, and while it attempts to 364 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: reach that, it doesn't yet have a plan to do so. 365 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: So why hasn't the CFC been able to meet this 366 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: target yet? 367 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: Maybe just to go back a step the original more 368 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: certainly for the last seven or eight year is the 369 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: target return the government had given us was three to 370 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: four percent above the five year government bond rate. And yes, 371 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: you're right, we haven't met that particular target, but we 372 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: we only even saw it as a guiding light because 373 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: when you're doing a lot of project finance, you know, 374 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: we were seventy percent debt give or take over that 375 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: period of time with thirty percent equity. You're not going 376 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: to reach those sorts of returns, and to try and 377 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: do so, we'd have to take a lot of probably 378 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 2: unnecessary risks. 379 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: So we were. 380 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: Always about a percent below the bottom end of that range. 381 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 2: Now the new government came in and we said the 382 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: time has come to revisit this target, and we gave 383 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: them all the reasons why, we showed them our performance 384 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: and we said that it's probably not that helpful to 385 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: have an unrealistic target return. They considered that, went to Finance, 386 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: did the numbers and said yes, all right, we'll lower 387 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: it five percent. You guys now need to target two 388 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: to three percent above the five year government bond rate 389 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: and we're now squarely within that. 390 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: So good news. 391 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: The government and the CFC have kind of come to 392 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: a landing on what is a sensible return and we 393 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 2: now fit snuggly in it. 394 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: So compared to a commercial bank, a high street bank, 395 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: Australia has the Big Four, what is it that CFC 396 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: does that makes it a more attractive partner to have 397 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: than just going to a commercial bank. 398 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 3: It's a very good question and an important question. 399 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: CFC is always trying to play a role to fill 400 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 2: a gap in the marketplace and help draw in the 401 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: Big Four or the investment banks, or the international equity 402 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: in the Infrastructure Fund and whatever it might be, and 403 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: we do that in different ways. We take risks that 404 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: others might not be prepared to take. So we might 405 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: provide a much longer duration for our debt, which allows 406 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 2: shorter term debt to come in from the private sector 407 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: or the Big Four or the Japanese banks or the 408 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: European banks, for example, in a big win farm. You know, 409 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: that's a true live example. So we might commit early 410 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: and people go. CFC has underwritten part of this. We 411 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: know that they're a sensible investor. They've been around a 412 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: long time, we know the people there, and they're owned 413 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: by the Australian government. That's a vote of confidence in 414 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: this particular project or company. For the reasons we've been around, 415 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: we've invested. You know, we've done over you know, two 416 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: hundred kind of large deals and there's been tens of 417 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: thousands of smaller deals using intomediories. We've lost very little money, 418 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: almost immaterial amount of money, and you know, we've made 419 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: a good return for the taxpayer. 420 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: Now, CFC users it's money to leverage two point five 421 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: dollars from private investors for every dollar it spends. Can 422 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: this number go higher? 423 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's an interesting kind of question, the one 424 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 2: of leverage, and governments are always very focused on not 425 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: being the only dollars in things. We've always tried to 426 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: push leverage as far as we can, But this was 427 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: a bit of a natural tension between If you have 428 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: very very high leverage, it sort of suggests that there 429 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: was a lot of people there alongside you. Did they 430 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: really need you? So sometimes you've got to kind of 431 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: keep that in mind. Could we go higher? I think 432 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: in fact we in the last twelve months our leverage 433 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: was even a bit higher than that. Again, so I 434 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: guess we're always trying to shoot between two and four 435 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: times if we can. There are some deals when it's 436 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: much higher. In other times we might put in nearly 437 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: all the capital because we're providing concessional debt to a 438 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 2: bank which is on learning to Remote Australia to try 439 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: and put more SOLA on the rooftops out there in 440 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: the country. 441 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: We spoke with Jigashan the podcast earlier this year. He 442 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: runs the Lawn Program's office and the US Department of Energy, 443 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: but he'd said that they had received a lot of 444 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: interests from other countries around the world for setting up 445 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: similar institutions. Have you received interest from other countries to 446 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: figure out a CEFC tape model in their countries. 447 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: We have had a lot of interest from Asian countries, 448 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: even some African countries. Everyone has a slightly different take 449 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: on it. Sometimes it's state government, sometimes it's a federal government. 450 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes there's a model where people want to talk to 451 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: you about combining the lending activity with the grant making activity, 452 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: whereas in Australia it's bifurcated. We do the lending and 453 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: investing an arena. The Australian Renewable Energy Agency, which is 454 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: a terrific organization, does grant making, so that we have 455 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: separate governance and but a very complementary approach and often 456 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: in on the same deals from time to time, and 457 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: we try and share our experience knowledge as widely and 458 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: broadly as we can. We help the New Zealand Green 459 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 2: Bank Investment Bank become established, stay in close touch with 460 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 2: the team over there. We active members of the green 461 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 2: banking network which kind of gets together around cop So 462 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: it's interesting. The only other green bank green investment bank 463 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: that's probably been quite similar to us was the UK's 464 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: Green Investment Bank, which was two and a half million pounds, 465 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 2: so smaller than US despite a bigger economy, but maybe 466 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: a little more focused and they did a lot of 467 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: offshore wind and then, of course after a number of years, 468 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: sold themselves to my old employer, Macquarie, and. 469 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: I think Australian jan Yeah, that's. 470 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: Right, and look we work with private sector players like Mcquarie. 471 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 2: I think the Brits did a good job with that 472 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: in the sense they got something up and running. 473 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 3: And sold it. 474 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: But yes, so it's an ongoing dialogue where you know, 475 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 2: we're very flattered that people are constantly coming to us 476 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: and asking you can hear about how we were established 477 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: and what lessons will learned, what's you know, what's been good, 478 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: what's not been not so good? And I think when 479 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: I look at the US, there are some states that have, 480 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: you know, green banks. You probably as well plugged into 481 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: this stuff as I am. And I think through the 482 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: Inflation Reduction Act, there's a move to purvacly wholesale capital 483 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: and push it out to various banking agencies, non bank 484 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: lenders and others down at the state level, so they 485 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: kind of reach communities, which is something that we have 486 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: done a bit of. But yes, I expect to see 487 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: more of it overcoming years. 488 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: You completed ten years last year, we did, and you've 489 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: now got this massive new capital injection to do more. 490 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: But if you were to sum up the last ten 491 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: years in lessons learned, how would you beast sum it up? 492 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: I think the flexibility and reach that we've had debt 493 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: equity and being able to invest across nearly all sectors, 494 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 2: but nuclear carbon capture storage has allowed us to see 495 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: so much. And there's such an enormous interconnection now between 496 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: various sectors that built environment, agriculture, residential Australia, distributed energy, 497 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: utility scale energy, and I think all of that coming 498 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 2: together is something that I've really witnessed over the last 499 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: well I've been CEO over six and a half years. 500 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: I've really witnessed that the world is coming to the transition. 501 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: We were, in some way at the forefront of it, 502 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: and now we've seen capital, regulators, governments, industries, everyone signed 503 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: on too. Netz. If you're not, you're probably kind of concerned. 504 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: And markets are changing all the time. You know, what 505 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 2: was kind of made sense in a utility scale solar 506 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: in twenty ten is a very very different proposition in 507 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. So things are changing all the time, 508 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: the sectors moving more quickly than ever, taxonomy and regulation 509 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: is coming. 510 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: Down the pipe. We're having to adapt to that. 511 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: That's probably another new frontier that we yet to really 512 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: tackle financed emissions reporting on that. Corporate Austrade is going 513 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: to have to report on its exposure to climate. So, 514 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: in a nutshell, it's probably the most dynamic and fast 515 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: moving environment that I've ever witnessed. 516 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: Thank you for coming on the shew my absolute pleasure. 517 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 518 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: A lot more money is needed to finance clean energy 519 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: projects and cut emissions, which is why it's so exciting 520 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: to see a government commit large sums of money to 521 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: doing just that. Since recording this conversation with Ian, the 522 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: CFC has announced a three billion dollar investment in the 523 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: state of Western Australia. It comes out of the Rewiring 524 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: the Nation Fund and will help expand the state's transmission 525 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: lines and renewable sector. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, 526 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: I recommend you go back and listen to our interview 527 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: with Jiggersha. He's playing a role that's similar to Ian's, 528 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: but in the US and with a lot more money 529 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: to work with. Thanks so much for listening to Zero. 530 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please take a moment to 531 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: rate and review the show. Subscribe on Apple podcasts or Spotify. 532 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: Send it to a friend or send it to someone 533 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: who loves Australia. Get in touch at zero pod at 534 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior 535 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: producer is Christine driscoll Our. Theme music is composed by Wondering. 536 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: Special thanks this week to kiramintern I am Akshatrati. 537 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 3: Back next week.