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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the price.

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Speaker 3: You believe that someone out of the past can enter

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Speaker 3: and take possession of a living bee.

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Speaker 4: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 4: is not through with us.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to the next picture show a movie the Week

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Speaker 5: podcast devote it to a classic film and how it

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Speaker 5: shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Keith Phipps

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Speaker 5: here with.

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Speaker 3: Tasha Robinson, Scott Tobias, and Genevieve Kaski.

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Speaker 5: With movie theaters still largely closed across the country or

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Speaker 5: focusing on quarantainement pairing films you can find on vod cable,

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Speaker 5: television or streaming services. This week, we're going to knock

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Speaker 5: back two movies about drinking, one vintage and one.

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Speaker 1: En v What does envy mean in this context.

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Speaker 5: Tasha, I'm glad you ask. NV means non vintage, so

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Speaker 5: the opposite of old ugh.

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Speaker 1: Actually, non vintage usually means that the wine blends together

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Speaker 1: a product of different vintages, some sparkling wines, for instance,

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Speaker 1: we'll mix in reserve or older wines with newer wines,

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Speaker 1: so that usage doesn't really work.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let's do this one of our films is like

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Speaker 5: a pino and one is like a cabernet. Okay, how so, Okay,

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Speaker 5: here's the deal. I don't really know that much about wine,

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Speaker 5: but I wanted to do something clever based around it

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Speaker 5: because one of our movies involves a lot of wine

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Speaker 5: and wine talk. But when I started researching in, I

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Speaker 5: got confused and a stratagy just googled opposite of vantage

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Speaker 5: wine and leaned on NB and thought, well, that'll do.

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Speaker 5: But now you've exposed me as a phony. So why

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Speaker 5: don't you walk us through what we're watching this week,

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Speaker 5: Tasha happily.

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Speaker 1: First, we'll be talking about Sideways, Alexander Paine's two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four comedy about two men, a failed writer played

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Speaker 1: by Paul Giamatti and an only sort of successful actor

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Speaker 1: played by Thomas Hayden Church. The two of them go

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Speaker 1: on a vacation in California's wine country, shortly before the

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Speaker 1: actor's wedding. That might sound like the setup for a

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Speaker 1: genteel comedy, but any reflectiveness comes between acts of deception

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Speaker 1: and moments of destructive bad behavior.

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Speaker 6: We were a.

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Speaker 1: Reminder of Sideways by Another Round, the latest film from

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Speaker 1: Danish director Thomas Vinterberg Mad's Michelson Stars is one of

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Speaker 1: four middle aged teachers who are inspired by the writing

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Speaker 1: of a Norwegian psychiatrist and decided to attempt to maintain

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Speaker 1: a blood alcohol level of point zero five in order

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Speaker 1: to live a freeer, happier existence. What could go wrong

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Speaker 1: with that?

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Speaker 5: So this week we'll talk about two men trying to

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Speaker 5: drink away their troubles with wine. The next week we'll

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Speaker 5: double the men and move on to the harder stuff.

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Speaker 5: Join us after the break.

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Speaker 4: Tonight we are celebrating Miles book deal published all.

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Speaker 2: Oh, what's the title? The day after yesterday? Oh?

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Speaker 5: I mean today? Yeah? Why did you tell them that

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Speaker 5: my novel was being published?

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Speaker 6: You have been officially depressed for like two years.

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Speaker 4: Now we're gonna go have some fine Miles, do you

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Speaker 4: remember Fine?

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Speaker 2: The woman finds out how I live and I'm not

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Speaker 2: a published author.

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Speaker 5: Any answer she has is going to operate real quick.

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Speaker 1: Guy should stay for the weekend.

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Speaker 2: No, we have to get back for the arsal rehearsals in.

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Speaker 3: You're getting very nice, Josh.

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Speaker 2: Now, I could have told you some story, but I didn't.

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Speaker 5: I told you the truth.

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Speaker 2: No, I spent three years trying to extricate myself from

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Speaker 2: a relationship that was full of deception.

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Speaker 5: I am not Jack. A couple of years ago on Reddit,

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Speaker 5: a user posted about an unusual purchase a resident of

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Speaker 5: the Sana and Nez Valley they stumbled upon and snapped

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Speaker 5: up a familiar looking car they'd seen for sale, the

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Speaker 5: nineteen eighty seven SAW nine hundred convertible from the movie Sideways.

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Speaker 5: They had big, potentially profitable plans for it. Maybe they

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Speaker 5: would even launch a business called Sideways Wine Towards if

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Speaker 5: they could legally use that name. That, in fact, was

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Speaker 5: what the post was about, but just brought up some

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Speaker 5: other problems. The sub nine hundred was a quote nightmare

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Speaker 5: of a car. Would anyone want to ride around in

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Speaker 5: the backseat of such a small car for the length

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Speaker 5: of a wine country tour? Was it even safe, with

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Speaker 5: tours limited to three customers at a time, be able

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Speaker 5: to turn a profit? A subsequent item in a local

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Speaker 5: paper noting the car was now for sale again suggests

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Speaker 5: the idea didn't pan out, and since the owners of

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Speaker 5: the sab didn't really need a second car, they decided

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Speaker 5: to sell it for fifty thousand dollars. It's value inflated

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Speaker 5: because it had once been in a movie people liked.

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Speaker 5: One year later, it turned out for sale again on

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Speaker 5: eBay for five thousand dollars. What happened next is an

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Speaker 5: internet mystery since the listing was removed, but it's a

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Speaker 5: mystery that seems fitting for the Sideways Car. A car

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Speaker 5: seene in a film deeply interested in what makes the

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Speaker 5: elements of life valuable, be the art, love, friendship, success, trust,

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Speaker 5: or a bottle of nineteen sixty one Chateau chaval Blanc.

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Speaker 5: It's also a film about what happens when that value deflates.

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Speaker 5: Paul Giamadi starts as Miles, a novelist working a day

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Speaker 5: job as a junior high English teacher who he's probably

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Speaker 5: really a junior hiding this teacher with delusions of publishing

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Speaker 5: a novel. He begins a film having signally reached bottom, divorced,

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Speaker 5: levin a dumpy apartment, and reduced to stealing money from

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Speaker 5: his elderly mother on the night before her birthday, which

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Speaker 5: he'll miss to fund a trip to wine Country with

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Speaker 5: his best friend, Jack, played by Thomas Hayden Church. Jack

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Speaker 5: is an actor still coasting on the fumes of his

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Speaker 5: long ago stent on a soap opera, but that coasting

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Speaker 5: seems to be near its end. Each has a different

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Speaker 5: agenda for the trip. Miles wants to drink some wine,

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Speaker 5: maybe play some golf, and forget about his troubles for

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Speaker 5: a while, never mind that his agent is making a

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Speaker 5: last ditch attempt to place a semi autobiographical novel with

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Speaker 5: a publisher, and that wine country is filled with memories

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Speaker 5: of Myles's recently collapsed marriage. Jack, on the other hand,

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Speaker 5: wants to get laid as much as possible and generally

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Speaker 5: revel and hedonism in every way possible before diving into marriage.

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Speaker 5: Along the way, they pick up two companions under false

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Speaker 5: pretenses created by Jack, though Miles never really tries to

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Speaker 5: clear the air they're up there, Jack claims celebrating myles

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Speaker 5: as soon to be published book. That story makes some

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Speaker 5: ideal companions for Stif played by Sondra Oh, a free

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Speaker 5: spirited winery worker who takes a liking to Jack, and

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Speaker 5: Maya played by Virginia Madsen, a recently divorced waitress Miles

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Speaker 5: is long liked and who seems to like him back.

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Speaker 5: But where Jack can move forward with the deception, Miles

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Speaker 5: hesitates even as Maya makes her interest evident. It's not clear, however,

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Speaker 5: whether he's forgotten how to open himself up to others

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Speaker 5: or just reluctan to begin a relationship in bad faith.

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Speaker 5: Either way, Myles fears disaster, and when disaster does strike,

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Speaker 5: he's forced to consider how he ended up, where he's landed,

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Speaker 5: what to do next, and who he's hurt along the way.

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Speaker 5: Sideways is a film about the damaged men do, whether

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Speaker 5: through reckless, abandoned or passive selfishness. But for Miles, it's

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Speaker 5: also the story of someone who comes to recognize just

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Speaker 5: how far he's falling short of the man he wants

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Speaker 5: to be, how devalued he's become as a person in

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Speaker 5: his own eyes and the eyes of others. But it's

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Speaker 5: also the story of a man who comes to recognize

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Speaker 5: he's been focusing on the wrong sort of failures. As

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Speaker 5: the film opens, he thinks he's a failure because his

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Speaker 5: writing career is floundered in a marketplace that has no

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Speaker 5: room for original ideas but infinite room for mediocrites, a

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Speaker 5: way of thinking about himself that reaches a low point

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Speaker 5: when his final rejection riots while visiting a winery that

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Speaker 5: sells mediocrity by the barrel. Without this achievement, he thinks

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Speaker 5: he's nothing. But maybe he's already nothing or close to it.

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Speaker 5: A man who drinks too much, who lashes out at

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Speaker 5: those he's already driven away, and who has to specify

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Speaker 5: which issue of barely legal he wants at a convenience

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Speaker 5: store in order to avoid being given one whose pages

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Speaker 5: he already knows too well, And maybe for the first

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Speaker 5: time he realizes that's his fault. He's not the equivalent

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Speaker 5: of a rare bottle of wine to be appreciated only

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Speaker 5: by connoisseurs, or one of a kind movie vehicle ready

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Speaker 5: to whisk fans from winery to winery. He's a wreck,

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Speaker 5: and his damage is largely, if not entirely, self inflicted,

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Speaker 5: and though the final moments hold out a hope of redemption,

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Speaker 5: whether he finds it or deserves it, is left an

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Speaker 5: open question. Why are you so into pino?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a thing with you.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, don't know. It's a hard grape to grow,

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Speaker 2: as you know, right, so it's thin, skin, temperamental, ripens early.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's not a survivor like cabernet which

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Speaker 2: can just grow anywhere and thrive even when it's neglected.

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Speaker 2: And then Pino needs constant care and attention, you know,

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Speaker 2: And in fact, it can only grow in these really specific,

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Speaker 2: little tucked away corners of the world, and only the

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Speaker 2: most patient and nurturing of growers can do it. Really,

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Speaker 2: only somebody really takes the time to understand Pino's potential

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Speaker 2: can then coax it into its fullest expression. And then

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Speaker 2: I mean, oh, it's flavors. They're just the most haunting

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Speaker 2: and brilliant and thrilling and subtle ancient on the planet.

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Speaker 5: All right, everybody, So standard beginning to try discussion. What

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Speaker 5: do you think of this movie and what's your history

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Speaker 5: with it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I saw the film at the Toronto Film

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Speaker 4: Festival in two thousand and four, and I remember having

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Speaker 4: it just an extremely you know, emotional response to it,

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Speaker 4: and I put it on my top ten list. And

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Speaker 4: then I saw it again and I really liked it.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know that's my history with it. I'm

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Speaker 4: still a fan of the film. I still really like

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Speaker 4: being in the world that Alexander Payne creates. The specificity

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Speaker 4: of it, I think a lot of it is very

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Speaker 4: funny and observant. It's kind of affected my own very

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Speaker 4: simple ideas about wine, what wins I should I don't think.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I've had a glassomer low since seeing

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Speaker 4: them movie, you know, even though I think my taste

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Speaker 4: is much more like Thomas Hayden Church's character. And that'll

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Speaker 4: happen and say, man, you know, it seems fun to me.

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Speaker 4: It tasts great, So no, I enjoyed. I think it's

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Speaker 4: it's sort of a you know, a shaggy and fun

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Speaker 4: and full of your very specific detail and insight and laughs.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, and I think it.

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Speaker 4: You know, the moment that really moved me back in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and four still gets me again today, that

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Speaker 4: scene with his ex just I think Paul Giamatti's reaction

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Speaker 4: is just an incredible piece of acting.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, I like it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like my primary memory of this film, which I know

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Speaker 3: I saw when it came out, I think I actually

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Speaker 3: may have owned the DVD back as part of my

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Speaker 3: Columbia House DVD membership. Did any of you guys have

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Speaker 3: the Columbia House DVD?

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Speaker 5: Sure, the CD club I was in a lot, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but not the Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how

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Speaker 3: I procured my very old and cheap copy of Sideways,

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Speaker 3: But I honestly don't know if I ever like rewatched

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Speaker 3: it beyond two thousand and four when it like just

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Speaker 3: had all of this, but it was nominated for a

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Speaker 3: ton of Oscars, like all four of those performances. Like,

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Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong, because I was like twenty

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Speaker 3: when this happened. But I feel like they were like

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Speaker 3: the buzzy performances of the year as far as like

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Speaker 3: Awards bodies go.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Hayden Church and Virginia Mads have both got Oscar nominations,

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Speaker 5: but Giamatti and sandro O did not.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, Okay, I remember I particularly remember Sandra Oh

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Speaker 3: being like a breakout, but maybe that was reaction to

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Speaker 3: her not getting nominated.

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Speaker 5: Well, she's been locked into R list for so long.

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Speaker 5: That's the only place I ever saw her before this,

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Speaker 5: And it's like, you know, and I'm sure she was

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Speaker 5: fine on that show, but the show was kind of

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Speaker 5: hard to watch a lot of the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, And I remember liking it at the time,

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Speaker 3: but I also like never had a super strong connection

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Speaker 3: to it. Like the subject matter of like, you know,

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Speaker 3: two middle aged guys being kind of crappy. You know,

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Speaker 3: it is not my normal bag, but for the reasons

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Speaker 3: that Scott was talking about, just in terms of detail,

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Speaker 3: and just like, the character building in this movie is

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Speaker 3: just so strong, and you just get so many little moments,

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Speaker 3: often wordless moments, that tell you so much about who

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Speaker 3: these characters are that I really kind of appreciate it

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Speaker 3: on that level, even if these aren't characters I like,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think we're supposed to like them. I

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Speaker 3: think if you did relate strongly to these characters in

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Speaker 3: a positive way, you know, that would maybe be a

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Speaker 3: cause for some introspection. But you know, I think just

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Speaker 3: in terms of you know, being a portrait of depression,

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Speaker 3: it's quite effective and you know, occasionally funny. I think

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Speaker 3: there was maybe like one or two laugh out loud

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Speaker 3: moments for me, but it's more of, you know, like

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Speaker 3: a sort of chuckling into your wine glass type of

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Speaker 3: comedy knowingly. Ah, yes, yes, I see that joke.

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Speaker 1: I think this film hit Toronto in September of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four and then came into limited release in

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Speaker 1: October after hitting a bunch of different film festivals. I

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Speaker 1: just remember having what seemed like at the time a

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Speaker 1: strong sense of it before I saw it. I think

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Speaker 1: I saw it very late in two thousand and four

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Speaker 1: as part of award season ketchup, and I'd already kind

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Speaker 1: of like built up ahead of existential dread of it

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Speaker 1: because the reviews were positive, but they also just emphasized

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Speaker 1: so much what an unpleasant person Paul Gmotti's character was,

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Speaker 1: how venal and selfish and elitist and snotty he was,

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Speaker 1: and how the whole film was basically just about men's

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Speaker 1: terrible behavior to women. So by the time I saw it,

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Speaker 1: I was definitely think of it as like a cultural

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Speaker 1: vegetables kind of thing, and I really didn't care for

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Speaker 1: it much at the time. Real watching it here I

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Speaker 1: see a lot more about where it's going and what

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Speaker 1: it's doing, and I think it comes to a very

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Speaker 1: touching place at the end that's very sympathetic and tender

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Speaker 1: in a way. I think the character building really is

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Speaker 1: very strong. I think there are some very funny moments,

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Speaker 1: but I still find that first out or very hard

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Speaker 1: going for the awkward comedy of it, the confrontational comedy

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Speaker 1: of it, I don't necessarily enjoy, you know, if a

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Speaker 1: villain is doing something terrible to people who you sympathize with.

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Speaker 1: You know that that's going somewhere, You know that it's

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Speaker 1: being set up in contrast to something. But when you

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Speaker 1: see a protagonist to do something as awful as pretty

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Speaker 1: much everything Giamati does to both his supposed best friend

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Speaker 1: and then his sweet old mother in the first act

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Speaker 1: of this film, it just left me in a very

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Speaker 1: squirmy place. And as pain builds, these characters seen by

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Speaker 1: scene by scene of bad behavior and selfish choices and

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Speaker 1: snotty treatment of everyone around them and extremely narrow, nerdy

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Speaker 1: behavior towards the one thing that Giamadi's character does care about.

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Speaker 1: I just find it really really hard to sit through.

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Speaker 1: And there's a point where you get kind of to

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Speaker 1: the peak of the unpleasantness, and then you go over

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Speaker 1: the top of the roller coaster and it's just a

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Speaker 1: it's a ride from there of you know, humanistic discovery

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Speaker 1: of these characters. That's a lot more fun than I

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Speaker 1: remember the film being or giving it credit for. But

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Speaker 1: I think I'm done with rewatching this film. I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: tired of the trip.

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Speaker 5: We'll pair with something else. It's a sideway podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I like this movie a lot, and I think some

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Speaker 5: of the screaming ASTs you talk about, I think is

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Speaker 5: totally a legitimate point. I mean, Rodgerivers line about movies

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Speaker 5: being an empathy machine is sometimes it makes you empathize

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Speaker 5: with people that you really don't want to skin, you

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Speaker 5: really don't want to inhabit. I feel like this is

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Speaker 5: one of those, because I mean, why, by bare description

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Speaker 5: would you care about Miles's happiness. I mean, he's an awful,

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Speaker 5: self involved person, but you know, he's human like the

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Speaker 5: rest of us, you know, And and it's kind of

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Speaker 5: put you next to his hopes and dreams for so long,

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Speaker 5: and I think part of his journey is recognizing his

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Speaker 5: flaws and how much he's the author of his own misery.

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Speaker 5: That I think by the end, you want something for him,

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Speaker 5: And I'm I'm thinking to sarily want those dreams to

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Speaker 5: come true. And I'm really not sure he deserves, you know,

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Speaker 5: might deserve to give him the time of day, you know,

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Speaker 5: when he shows up at a doorstep. But that's kind

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Speaker 5: of outside the frame of the film, isn't it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One thing that surprised me on this rewatch that I

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Speaker 3: had not remembered at all about the film was like

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Speaker 3: how early and plainly they address the fact that Miles

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Speaker 3: is depressed, Like Jack says to him, You've been full

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Speaker 3: on depressed for two years. He's taking xanax and lexapro,

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Speaker 3: like he's medicated, Like he is clinically depressed. And that

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Speaker 3: is like foregrounded, And I feel like that is kind

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Speaker 3: of rare, at least for films of this era, to

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Speaker 3: like foreground the mental health difficulties of its protagonists so

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Speaker 3: plainly and so early in the film that it sort

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Speaker 3: of contextualizes all of Miles's behavior, especially when contrasted with Jack,

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Speaker 3: who is dealing with his own issues, but they are

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Speaker 3: a little muchier and wrapped up in some impulses, some

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Speaker 3: sexual impulses, and some fear of commitment, and like some

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Speaker 3: you know, his own issues that are not as plainly stated,

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Speaker 3: but do create a contrast two Miles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think it's only toward the end you realize how

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Speaker 5: messed up he is, because you know, he's just doing

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Speaker 5: what men do, except right, he's also just you know,

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Speaker 5: what men do can be awful. And it's also sometime

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Speaker 5: with some really unhealthy you know, impulse control issues or whatever.

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Speaker 5: I'm not going to diagnote knows him, but you know

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Speaker 5: he he'll.

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Speaker 1: Diagnose him slightly. I think he has some really four

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Speaker 1: grounded self esteem issues that don't get laid bare until

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Speaker 1: he's up against the prospect of losing the woman that

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Speaker 1: he's planning on getting married to. What you said earlier

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Speaker 1: about the empathy machine sometimes making you empathize with people

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Speaker 1: that you don't want to be in their skin, I

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Speaker 1: find it hard by the end of the movie to

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Speaker 1: empathize with him at all. But I think the movie does,

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Speaker 1: at least to some degree, underline that one of his

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Speaker 1: big problems is like he has the terror of commitment,

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Speaker 1: he has the terror of aging, he has the terror

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Speaker 1: of not knowing where his life's going. But when he

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Speaker 1: starts talking about his incipient bride as he's nothing without her,

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Speaker 1: He's just like an empty failure without her, I think

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Speaker 1: it becomes pretty apparent that somewhere below his visibly inflated

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Speaker 1: ego is just a terrifying lack of self esteem.

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Speaker 3: That without her, I'm nothing. Lying really stuck out to

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Speaker 3: me too, because it feels like a line that's directed

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Speaker 3: at Miles, someone who has has lost his wife, who

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Speaker 3: cheated on his wife. Another detail that I forgot until

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Speaker 3: this rewatch, and you know, we have kind of seen

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Speaker 3: him being a walking nothing of a person. So in

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Speaker 3: hearing Jack say in this like kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: big confrontational moment, you know, without my wife, I'm nothing,

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Speaker 3: it feels like possibly a clarifying moment for Miles as well,

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Speaker 3: or at least for us as it relates to Miles.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, for one, I like spending time with

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Speaker 4: these guys, So the whole film is kind of enjoyable.

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Speaker 4: I think they have you know, I mean, they don't

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Speaker 4: have to be likable for me to like that dynamic,

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Speaker 4: which is so again so specific in terms of like

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Speaker 4: this friendship that is kind of you know, to use

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Speaker 4: a great metaphors that have died on the vine a

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Speaker 4: little bit. You know, it's a sort of aged, it

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Speaker 4: gone sour to some extent, yet there's still kind of

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Speaker 4: a bond there, and it's it's complicated and interesting. They're

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Speaker 4: compelling together and they're also a very very good comedy team.

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Speaker 4: I mean in terms of like laughs in the movie

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Speaker 4: like that, the whole bit about them crashing the car

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Speaker 4: deliberately to cover to cover up the broken nose is

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Speaker 4: just I mean, just on the floor both times I

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Speaker 4: saw it. But one thing I will say, you know again,

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Speaker 4: I think this is part of the sort of integrity

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Speaker 4: of the film is is I think that the film

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Speaker 4: actually sort of YadA yadas over moments that would make

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Speaker 4: Miles more sympathetic, right, I mean, like it shows you

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Speaker 4: the worst side of him all the time. But I

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Speaker 4: I think that that there is a lot of suggestion

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Speaker 4: that in the right context, if he's at dinner, if

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Speaker 4: he's on a picnic, if he's having a nice glass

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Speaker 4: of wine. I mean, he's a learned guy, he has

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Speaker 4: he's a wit. You know, he's got he can be charming,

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Speaker 4: he has that side to himself. But the film blows

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Speaker 4: through it. The film montages all that stuff away and

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Speaker 4: montages the stuff in the dinner between the four of

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Speaker 4: them when he's being charming. It montages this kind of

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Speaker 4: like magic hour picnic that the four of them have together.

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Speaker 6: I mean, we really get it.

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Speaker 4: Has I think the courage to show you Miles at

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Speaker 4: his worst and hope that you will find some connection

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Speaker 4: with him, and I do. Ultimately, I think the film

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Speaker 4: is hard one in its depiction of that character.

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Speaker 1: I mean, some of that may just be the very

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Speaker 1: smart decision to not show the art. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: talked before about the problems of films that tell you

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Speaker 1: this person is a fantastic artists in some way. You know,

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Speaker 1: they've behaved very badly, but at least they're creating this art.

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Speaker 1: And then they show you the art, and you know,

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Speaker 1: do you personally connect with whatever painting or song or

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Speaker 1: book or whatever it is that they've created so much

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Speaker 1: that you believe that it's worth everything terrible that they've

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Speaker 1: done Throughout the story, I think montaging over the times

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Speaker 1: when he's charming, Pain escapes the challenge of making him

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Speaker 1: so charming that it covers up for the fact that

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Speaker 1: he visits his mother the night before her birthday solely

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Speaker 1: in order to steal a huge chunk of money from her.

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Speaker 1: You know, decisions that he makes like that are terrible

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Speaker 1: enough that he would have to be awfully damn charming

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Speaker 1: to balance that out, and Pain, I think, very wisely,

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Speaker 1: instead of trying to make him that charming and convince

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Speaker 1: you just says he's very charming, We're going to skip

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Speaker 1: by that and skip to the point where people have

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Speaker 1: been charmed by him. It's just it's a smart storytelling decision.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting to hear you guys talk about this because

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Speaker 3: like it never really occurred to me watching the film

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Speaker 3: that Miles is especially charming. And I took Maya's attraction

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Speaker 3: to him to be more about who she is as

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Speaker 3: a person and her being a like a nurturing person,

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Speaker 3: Like she's studying horticulture, you know, she's when she taught

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Speaker 3: when they each kind of had their contrasting speeches of

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Speaker 3: how they think of wine. She's talking how she thinks

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Speaker 3: about it in terms of the people who make it

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Speaker 3: and the connection and the beauty of it. And she's

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Speaker 3: clearly this very like open and nurturing and generous soul.

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Speaker 3: And I feel her connection to Miles both makes that

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Speaker 3: apparent and strengthens it, like he is sort of a

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Speaker 3: little wounded bird. You know that she is drawn to

434
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 3: the way that some women are, you know, like not

435
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 3: all women are drawn to strong, charismatic, capable men, only

436
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 3: like someone they can take care of. That's another impulse

437
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 3: that can be behind relationships and love. So that was

438
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 3: my reading on it, rather than sort of you know,

439
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 3: Miles having this charisma that we never get to see.

440
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 4: Well, Miles is telling her, you know what she's going

441
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 4: to nurture to I mean, Miles is talking to her

442
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 4: about this, you know, temperamental grape. You know that that,

443
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: and he is, of course that exactly the type of

444
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 4: grape that he's talking about. And he's hoping that whatever

445
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 4: you know, haunting evocative flavors might come from a grape

446
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 4: that is that is rare and well cared for, can

447
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: yield something more substantial than you know, just your ordinary murleau.

448
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 4: I guess I don't know so in that sense. I mean,

449
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 4: I mean, I like those speeches a lot, but I

450
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 4: mean they are definitely telling us.

451
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: I mean, wine is just such a metaphorical thing. It's

452
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 3: like chess, you know, like there's no shortage of metaphorical

453
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: echoes you can pull from it.

454
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that I took her attraction to him

455
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: as solely wanting to nurse a baby bird back to health.

456
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: I think there might be a little of that element,

457
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: but I think for me, it seemed like it came

458
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: a little more out of shared interests. When he talks

459
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: about wine, he is very eloquent, and we're led to

460
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: believe that, even though his novel is unpublishable and apparently

461
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: ten thousand pages long, two boxes, giant heavy boxes of

462
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: that was a laugh.

463
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 3: Out loud moment. I will say the second box, it

464
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: is a good one.

465
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: And just on top of that, when she asks him

466
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: to describe it and he starts to describe it sounds

467
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: pretty excruciating. But the way she talks about it later,

468
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't know. There are just degrees

469
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: to which some people are made for each other. You know,

470
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: a person, regardless of whether they're tall and handsome and

471
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: charismatic or small and wounded a baby bird like, there

472
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: are people that you look at and say I I

473
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 1: would not be interested in that person, and there's somebody

474
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: else who's just suited for them in a way. And

475
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: I think these two people are both presented as very

476
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: damaged people who came out of relationships a lot more

477
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: fragile than they used to be, and who need very

478
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: careful gentle handling, and both of them, eventually, after some

479
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: trial and error, after some missteps, are available for that

480
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: gentle handling. But they also both just really share some interests.

481
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: Both of them make speeches about wine that for some

482
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: people would be excruciatingly tedious and fairly pretentious, but you

483
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: can see as each of them is making their speeches

484
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: that the other one understands and is hearing it. So

485
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: I don't want to put her in the mama category

486
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: too readily, and I certainly don't want to imply that

487
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: he's so charming that he overcame all of her initial

488
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: reticence towards him. I think these two are just well paired.

489
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: One of my minor objections to the film is a

490
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: feeling that it sympathize a bit with Jack's feeling that

491
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: Miles is screwing up by not pursuing maya harder, by

492
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: not seducing her into bed and then walking away whistling

493
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: to himself to me their entire relationship, and in spite

494
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: of the misstep involving the lie about Jack, the lie

495
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: about the book, none of which Miles really initiated, every

496
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: aspect of the relationship seems to proceed as it should,

497
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: at the pace that they're both ready for, at the

498
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: pace that makes them comfortable and makes sense for their relationship,

499
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: and the degree to which we're kind of invited to

500
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: see him as a bit of a loser because he

501
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: just talks to her in the night that he spends

502
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: hanging out with her at her friend's house instead of

503
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: trying to jump her. To me, that was just like,

504
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: these are two people that can really talk to each other,

505
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: that feel heard for the first time in a while. Like,

506
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with any of this. Why are we

507
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: being made to see it as a failure on his part.

508
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 3: I agree with what you say about their relationship, and

509
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: I don't want to imply that I think like that

510
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: is solely maya taking pity on Miles. I I just

511
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: think that, like, you know, going back to this being

512
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: such a just strong character building all around, I think that,

513
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 3: you know, that discussion between them tells us more about

514
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: who she is as a person and how she reacts

515
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: to Miles, then it tells us about him as a

516
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, charismatic rock onteur.

517
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 4: They do have this common passion, and I think the

518
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: passion is really legitimate and informed and central to their lives,

519
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: you know, you know, I never really find Miles to

520
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 4: be snobby in the movie.

521
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: I think he is a connoisseur, even at that last winery.

522
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 6: Yes, definitely especially the last winery.

523
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 7: But first winery, the wineries in between, where he's a

524
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 7: total snob, just like he cares he cares about these

525
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 7: kind of you know, special in the pendant wineries.

526
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 4: He doesn't have a he doesn't like the big, gaudy

527
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 4: touring places with the guy on the acoustic guitar.

528
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: What about when he has the shrieking fit outside the restaurant,

529
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: like the big laugh line of the movie, the big

530
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: cell line of the movie, the big catchphrase of the

531
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: movie where he shrieks about how if anybody orders any

532
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: fing merlow, he's gonna storm.

533
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: Bales went down.

534
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 6: I know, no, I stopped like. I kind of liked

535
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 6: Brilau until he said that.

536
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 4: No. I mean, maybe somebody, but I'm not saying I wouldn't.

537
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 4: I would not characterize it entirely as snobbery. I think

538
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 4: I think it's something This is something he cares about

539
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: and knows about, and he has an interest in specific

540
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 4: qualities of whiney, has a taste for it. I'm reminded,

541
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 4: actually there was a there was a documentary about wine

542
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 4: making by this director, Jonathan Nossiter, and I remember Jonathan

543
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 4: Nosistor was one of the things observations he made that

544
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 4: kind of stuck with me was him saying something like,

545
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: you can't fall in love with them. McDonald's you know,

546
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: because it's just not specific enough, you know what I mean?

547
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: And I think that kind of applies here. There's something,

548
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: there's a there's a love that the two of them

549
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: have for wine and perhaps later for each other that's

550
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 4: tied to something very particular that is not generic, that

551
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: is not something that everybody gets to see on the tour.

552
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 5: For the take of our listeners, is that film called Mondovino?

553
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 6: Is that the one Mondovino? That's right?

554
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 5: Yeah?

555
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think he can be like, you know,

556
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 3: smart and specific in his knowledge and still be a

557
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: snob and how he chooses to express that, and that's okay,

558
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: you know, like you know, we're we all have things

559
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: that we can be snobby about. I think many people

560
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: who are not fans of this podcast might argue that

561
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: we are snobs or can it can have snobbish tendencies.

562
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 6: For yourself.

563
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: People, It's all a matter of positioning, you know.

564
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 5: I think the discomfort that scene is less from it

565
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 5: comes from Miles like being unable. There's you know, he

566
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 5: sees it, she sees it, we see it, but he

567
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 5: doesn't have the courage to act on it. And I

568
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: think at that point it's early enough that you can

569
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 5: kind of maybe kind of wave away the light of

570
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 5: Jeff Guttenham into there and still established relationship. It's more

571
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 5: about a fear of plunging in, you know, opening himself

572
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 5: up at that point.

573
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: But I mean he's right in a way to be

574
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: afraid of opening himself up. He's gone through a traumatic experience,

575
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: he's very depressed, he's still not exactly over his ex,

576
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: and his reaching out to his ex at that crucial

577
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: moment is excruciating, but it's part of the process of

578
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: moving on. It's part of the process, the incomplete process

579
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: of getting over her. And as much as we might

580
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: like disagree with his choice there, it's a smart story choice.

581
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: It feels like almost a necessary story choice. So I like,

582
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: I just I don't feel like it's a bad thing

583
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: the way it progresses, or that we should be thinking

584
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: like what a loser. And I don't think the film

585
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: goes as far as Jack does in painting him as

586
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: a loser for sneaking off to call his ex drunkenly

587
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: or not making a move on her at the house.

588
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: But I do think that it does judge him somewhat,

589
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: and it does present these as sad choices, and I'm

590
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: just I'm not entirely convinced that's true.

591
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 5: That's sadest choices of course, buying the barely illegal. And then.

592
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean.

593
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 3: Clipping his toenails next or grading papers in the hot

594
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: tub and clipping his toenails next to the pool. Those

595
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: were pretty sad.

596
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: I mean those are just Alexander Payne moments, right, that

597
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 4: was like so great, And that's the kind of stuff

598
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 4: I just get into. I like, like the interior of

599
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: his mom's house and we see it, It's like, God,

600
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: that is just so.

601
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: I love the crumpled grocery store bouquet, like sitting on

602
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: top of the TV, still in its plastic, not even

603
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: a vase, the bouquet that he had like taken the

604
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: price tag off on his way to the door after

605
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: scrawling his name on the card. You know, like just

606
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: each one of those is a perfect little gracenowe that

607
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: adds up to this like symphony of character.

608
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 6: That's the way the.

609
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 5: Snack foods at his mom's house and the snack foods

610
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 5: at Center O's house are completely different. You know, Stephanie

611
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 5: has like this really you know, upscale whole foods kind

612
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 5: of kind of snat.

613
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: Cool cheeses, some really cool cheeses, exactly.

614
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: Insane cheese, and the movie to stop for a minute

615
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: and take a breath and tell me what insane Jesus

616
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: that just that was a fun little dialogue detail. When

617
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: you're talking about the specificity of interiors, I also just

618
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: want to call out Cammy's house as oh God, sneaking

619
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: back in trying to get his friend's wallet that house.

620
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: I've been in that house, you know. I know people

621
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: who in fact have the metal issues that have lived

622
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: like that, and every bit of it just felt so

623
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: There are times that you see movies with messy interior

624
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: houses that you're like, have you ever seen an actual

625
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: mess in your life? This is a very calculated and

626
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: poor attempt to address like a disheveled house would look like.

627
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: But that house feels so lived in and familiar and terrifying.

628
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: That entire tour into the life of Cammy and her

629
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: husband and their sex life. Frankly, they're a kind of

630
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: kinky sex life. I thought it was just pretty fun.

631
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: I thought it was really interesting because, like my memory

632
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: of that scene was, you know that he the miles

633
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: sneaks in and sees them having sex and is chased

634
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: out by you know, a man with a swing and dick.

635
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: Like that's what's memorable about the scene. But I don't

636
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: think I necessarily registered what Cammy and her husband were

637
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: like saying to each other as they were having sex.

638
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: And they're like living out this cuckold fantasy. And you know,

639
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: when we're dealing with a story about two characters with

640
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: a history of infidelity and in Jack's case, some impulsive

641
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: and destructive behavior wrapped up in an infant, it's interesting

642
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: to see that played out in a different context.

643
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: There's also just like kind of upending the cliche of

644
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: the possessive husband that comes home and finds you in

645
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: bed with his wife. You know, when when Miles first

646
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of noses his way into the house, the noises

647
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: he hears could be a woman being beaten. Right, there

648
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: is sort of a.

649
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 3: Title said whimper, It said Cammy whimpering.

650
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there is sort of the fear that after

651
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: the story that Jack told, like what happened to Cammy

652
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: as a result of all this, Jack had the ability

653
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: to run away, I mean without his pants or his wallet,

654
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: but he had the ability to run away. She's still

655
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: kind of stuck in his life, so kind of peering

656
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: into that life and seeing that they've just kind of

657
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: turned it around and turned it into like a hot,

658
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: fetishy time together. It's just kind of a fun bit

659
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: of subversion. Yeah, and something you just don't see in

660
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: movies very much.

661
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 5: I realized that was lost star mc gainey as the

662
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 5: I knew.

663
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: It was familiar.

664
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, how did you recognize him? So?

665
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just I thought like the Yeah, that's another

666
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 4: thing too, is I love Alexander Payne's kind of interest

667
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: in like non Hollywood bodies too. It's like that's and

668
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 4: that's true of everybody, and its just of like, you know,

669
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 4: guys walking around and kind of boxer shorts and stuff,

670
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 4: and it's just something there's something in socks.

671
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 6: It just feels like that was part of all that too.

672
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 5: Even Thomas Hayden Church, the honky character is is not

673
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 5: like completely sculpted either.

674
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 6: No, he's long o the tooth.

675
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Thomas Hayden Church is such a because this

676
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: is kind of a breakout him. I know he was

677
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: on Wings, but like he hadn't really done anything notable

678
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: in film before this, right.

679
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 5: No, Yes, that's right.

680
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

681
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 3: I was like just like staring at his face a

682
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: lot during this movie. Obviously his face is on screen

683
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: a lot, but like it's such an interesting face because

684
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 3: I mean, like Paul Giamatti is like the quintessential character

685
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 3: actor face, you know. But Thomas Hayden Church kind of

686
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: exists in this like space between like leading man handsome

687
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 3: and character actor like strangeness, you know, and it like

688
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 3: never quite tips over to one or the other, but

689
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: it he just like has this very kind of specific

690
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 3: look that it's like he's almost really handsome, but there's

691
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: something just a little bit off about him, and that

692
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 3: like I think translates really well to where his character

693
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 3: is in his career.

694
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 5: And this was also a kind of comeback for Virginia Madson,

695
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 5: who's so good in this movie, and I feel like

696
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 5: I wish you saw a little bit more than we do.

697
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 5: She works steadily, but like I think our high profile

698
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 5: world is kind of She had a couple more after

699
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 5: this and then not so many, but yeah, but she's

700
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 5: she's so good in this film.

701
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: I think all four of them are good. We haven't

702
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: really talked about Sandra Oh much, and like I think

703
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: of the four of them, her character has sort of

704
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: the least layers to it, or her performance maybe has

705
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 3: the lease layers to it until that amazing conference Haitia

706
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: where she beats the shit out of it with her

707
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: cycle it like you know, that's the supporting actress for

708
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: your consideration scene, you know, and she she killed it

709
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: like she killed his face.

710
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, she kind of disappears up to that point, but

711
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 5: what else can the relationship is over.

712
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just also really enjoy her introduction scene where

713
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: you see her as pretty. I honestly think that that

714
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: first introduction scene is very layered, like she's flirty, but

715
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: you get the sense that she might be flirty in

716
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: the way a lot of baristas are a lot of

717
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: baristas or waitresses have to be in order to get

718
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: along with their clients and to get tips. But at

719
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: the same time, there's kind of a dismissive edge to her,

720
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: to the way she treats people. There's kind of a

721
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: feeling of I know, this is transactional. You know this

722
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: is transactional, but that gives us kind of room to

723
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: play with it. She doesn't come across as Again, there

724
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: are a lot of stereotypes that you can have with

725
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: the carearacter, like that where you know, the dumb flirt

726
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: is one. The venal girl who's just out to get

727
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 1: your money is one, And I feel like she sort

728
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: of veers playfully back and forth between types without really

729
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: necessarily letting you know where she is because the character.

730
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 6: Is doing that.

731
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: I think the character is very consciously riding the line

732
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: between I'm on your side and I'm on my side,

733
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: and like from the beginning, I found that character pretty mesmerizing.

734
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 4: I also like that Jack buys two cases of one

735
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 4: yeah exactly, the three a lot.

736
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 6: Of wine from her that's very enjoyable.

737
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 5: So he kind of touches this before. But does Miles

738
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 5: and Jack's friendship make sense? They we learned that they

739
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 5: met in college and they've stayed friends since, but it

740
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 5: does seem like some of the stuff they have in

741
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: common it's kind of fallen away over the years. Am

742
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 5: I wrong? Is he yet?

743
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: That way?

744
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like the most interesting and subtle

745
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: thing that this movie does is start us off in

746
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 1: a place where Miles just seems like a terrible person

747
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: and Jack is the old buddy who's sticking with him

748
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: out of loyalty, you know, the much more easy going

749
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: and friendly type who sees all of the bad things

750
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: that his friend is doing and still chooses to stick

751
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: by him. And then as the movie goes on, we

752
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: see a lot more of what that relationship looks like

753
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: and how much Miles does for Jack and how much

754
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: Miles excuses in Jack, and bit by bit we start

755
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: to see Jacks equally as a selfish and self centered

756
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: and blinkered and bad behaviored as Miles, and then probably

757
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: a lot more so, and we start to see how

758
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: Miles in many ways is like the loyal and brave one.

759
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: And I think the fulkramming of that relationship is just

760
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: a really really interesting thing, but it also sort of

761
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: gives us a reason to believe the relationship because both

762
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: of them, when it comes to the clutch moments, have

763
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: to try to be there for each other. You know,

764
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: Jack is willing to chase Miles for a mile through

765
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: the grape fields as Miles is trying to bolt down

766
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: an entire bottle of wine by himself. Miles is willing

767
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: to go into that house full of angry naked man

768
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 1: and go for that wallet. You know, they're they're there

769
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: for each other. There's certainly the question of where that

770
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: relationship started and how it developed. There's a point where

771
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: Miles says, just very wearily, you know that he's not

772
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: anybody in particular, he's his freshman roommate. But you do

773
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: sort of get the impression that they've built the loyalty

774
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: that they have to each other one act of covering

775
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: up for each other's unforgivable acts at a time.

776
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 5: Who reminds me of And this didn't really occur to

777
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 5: me until that scene, that perfectly balanced scene where each

778
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 5: is on one side of the frame when they're at

779
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 5: the bar or the restaurant, and there's a line, you know,

780
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 5: the door kind of works as a divider their relationship.

781
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 5: There a lot of Charlie and Donald Kaufman in Ahabitation,

782
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 5: where one everything comes, so every just existence comes, so

783
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 5: such a such a burden to one and the other

784
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 5: kind of breezes through with seemingly no consequence. I mean,

785
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 5: it goes those relationship goes very different places, but but yeah,

786
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 5: it's kind of it. That's all echoes of it there.

787
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 6: You watch some Nicholas Cage films recently.

788
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 5: Did, Yeah, I have?

789
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 4: I would say I think one of the crucial insights

790
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 4: one of the things that I think about this relationship

791
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: is that it could not start at where they're at.

792
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: I mean, they couldn't meet as middle aged people for

793
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 4: the first time and then strike up a friendship. So

794
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 4: I think that's an interesting place for the movie to

795
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 4: start with the fact that they have grown apart in

796
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 4: significant ways, they don't have a whole lot in common

797
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 4: other than this past that they share, and it allows

798
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 4: us to kind of like fill in the rest. I mean,

799
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 4: it's just the whole thing just feels persuasive to me,

800
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 4: and that in the fact that they don't that they're

801
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: not in sync about a lot of things, you know.

802
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a dynamic that you want in a

803
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 4: road movie and a buddy movie, et cetera. And I

804
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 4: think it also, you know, the film also kind of

805
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 4: takes advantage of gives you a little bit of separation

806
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 4: morally between the two of them, because there are plenty

807
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 4: of junctures in which in which my well, basically Miles

808
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 4: finds what Jack is doing to be repulsive. I mean

809
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 4: that he's a bridge too far for him. I mean,

810
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: he will, he will do things for his friend, but

811
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 4: it is upsetting and disappointing to him that Jack has

812
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 4: decided that this is what he wants to do with

813
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 4: this time they have together, and that that does give

814
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 4: us at least some that gives Miles a certain amount

815
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 4: of moral integrity, It gives them a sliver of it.

816
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it kind of works both ways.

817
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 3: I mean, like this is a more cynical reading of

818
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: their relationship, but they also each give the other. They

819
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 3: each give each other the ability to go well, at

820
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 3: least I'm not as bad as that guy, you know,

821
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 3: which is a form of enabling. Like they do enable

822
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: each other in ways life and small. One of the

823
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 3: things that struck me at the very beginning, and part

824
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 3: of that is because of the film we are paying

825
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: this with is like one of the very first scenes

826
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: they open and drink a bottle of champagne while driving,

827
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 3: you know, like they're they're clearly, you know, not particularly

828
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 3: concerned with the other's bad behavior. But the other person's

829
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: bad behavior is Scott you were talking about with Miles,

830
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 3: or you know, the other way with Jack being able

831
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 3: to kind of say, like look at Miles and be like, well,

832
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: he's like so closed off to the world and he's

833
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: depressed and he's you know, mister negative, and you know

834
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: he's medicated and at least like I'm not that you know,

835
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: and it gives each of them a worse case scenario

836
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: to kind of put themselves against and justify their own

837
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: bad behavior.

838
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: That scene with the champagne in the car also gives

839
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: us a very clear indication of part of the dynamic

840
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: between them, which is that Miles is going to say no,

841
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: don't do that, stop, and Jack's just going to go

842
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: ahead with it anyway, and Miles is going to cave,

843
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: which is a dynamic we see over and over and

844
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: over throughout the movie, and Jack has basically been trained

845
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: to ignore no matter how many times Miles says no.

846
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: You want to talk about a movie about consent, That's

847
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: a movie where Miles does not consent to ninety percent

848
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: of the things that Jack says and does, whether it's

849
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: guzzling down the whole glass of wine instead of just

850
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: breathing it, or popping up with the champagne in the car,

851
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: or the big lies, but he eventually sighs and goes

852
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: along with it anyway every single time.

853
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 5: All Right, Well, there's lots of talk about it. We'll

854
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 5: be talking about it more as we talk about another

855
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 5: film about drinking. Next episode, which is I film called

856
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 5: another round. In the meantime, we're going to take a

857
00:44:49,120 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 5: short break and we'll be back with some feedback. Now,

858
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 5: let's time for feedback, when our listeners weigh in with

859
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 5: their responses to recent episodes and anything else in the

860
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 5: world of film. This week, we're all still talking about

861
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 5: MANK and Citizen Kane. Genevieve Ken, you share some feedback

862
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 5: about that pairing.

863
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 3: Sure, Jeff from Costa Rica writes, I'm not just writing

864
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 3: in to complain because I disagree with your overall takes

865
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 3: on MANK and think it's a fantastic film that will

866
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 3: only be more appreciated over time. No, that would be petty.

867
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: In fact, I typically agree with Tasha's insights of not

868
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 3: her overall level of enthusiasm for a film. Sorry, Keith,

869
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 3: and Genevieve nearly always sees films the way I do

870
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 3: at home with a drink. Haha, ha ha, Very funny, Jeff,

871
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: He continues, No, the reason I'm writing is because your

872
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: episode on MANK made me really appreciate the work you've

873
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: done on previous episodes. By comparison, what other film have

874
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: you opened by spending twenty minutes talking about how it

875
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: falls short of the greatest film of all time, or

876
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: even just opening by comparing all the things that classic

877
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: pair up did better. I appreciate that you usually talk

878
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: about the new film in its own right and on

879
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: its own merits before making comparisons. Mank never had a

880
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: chance with you, guys. You slipped up behind it and

881
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: shaked it in the kidney like a prison lunch line.

882
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: I can anticipate the defense of the film itself invites

883
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: the comparison, and yes, fair point, but I'd hope you'd

884
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 3: bear in mind that a sizeable portion of the viewing

885
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 3: public hasn't watched Kane recently, and certainly doesn't look at

886
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 3: a scene in a nineteen thirty studio and recognize half

887
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: the people on screen. It's been nearly ninety years since Kane,

888
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: long enough that if Mink were a remake, it would

889
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 3: be the defining version for this and the next generation.

890
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 3: It deserves to be evaluated with fresh eyes before getting

891
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: into its archaeological records. I know that can be harder

892
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: the back to back viewing, as some of you seemed

893
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 3: to do, but I think in this case, the film

894
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: geek enthusiasm to show off all the connections and highlight

895
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 3: the references gotten the way of giving the film a

896
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 3: fair hearing on air. Well, guys, you can take into task. Yeah,

897
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 3: because if you were there, Scott Lord knows you would

898
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 3: not be comparing MANK to Citizen Kane.

899
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, Scott's is actually got f fe to

900
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 5: weigh in on man Consisten Kane. But but from the

901
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 5: beginning of this letter, I think maybe he did complain

902
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 5: to write about it, which is fine, That's that's fair,

903
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 5: that's fair.

904
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 3: But also, may I point to the premise of this podcast,

905
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 3: and you know, sure a lot of people watching MANK

906
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 3: may not have watched Citizen Kane right before it. But

907
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: I would think, you know, a somewhat sizable portion of

908
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 3: our of our listeners who like to listen and watch

909
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,479
Speaker 3: along at home, did rewatch Kane. We received some letters

910
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,479
Speaker 3: from some people who rewatched it or watched it for

911
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 3: for the first time. And you know, Jeff says, I

912
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 3: can anticipate the defense of the film itself invites the comparison,

913
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean, I guess that's the defense, at

914
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 3: least as I see it. I haven't revisited MANK. I

915
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 3: don't feel a compulsion to revisit MANK. I will acknowledge that,

916
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 3: you know, watching it in a different context and not

917
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: for a podcast specifically designed to discuss two films in comparison.

918
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 3: You know, I might have a different, potentially more more

919
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 3: positive reaction. But you know, this pairing, more so than

920
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: I think maybe anyone we've ever done, is explicit. There's

921
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: an explicit link between the two films. Like there was

922
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 3: never a question that we would pair any film besides

923
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: Citizen Kane with MANK. It would be ridiculous. So, like,

924
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 3: I understand feeling disappointed that we didn't, you know, process

925
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 3: the film the way you would like to us to

926
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 3: have processed it, But this is how we received the film.

927
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 3: I did any of you watch it like in a

928
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 3: vacuum before we were doing this pairing.

929
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 6: I had seen Citizen Kane before, so I was spoiled

930
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 6: on that, But no, I didn't you know.

931
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 4: I was Again, wasn't part of this clear tobacco of

932
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 4: a film discussion.

933
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: So here's the thing, Scott, since here I heard a

934
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: little ways away from your watching of MANK and did

935
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: not just watch them both back to back the way

936
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: we did, and we didn't really get to hear your

937
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: thoughts on MEK. This is probably your opportunity to validate

938
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: our discussion by telling us what you thought of MANK

939
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: without getting hugely into how it compares with Citizen Kane.

940
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 4: Oh well, I'd be happy to see if you can so, okay,

941
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 4: I could say that MANK was a film that I

942
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 4: struggled with. I don't think it's hugely successful overall. I

943
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 4: don't really like the you know, the look of the film.

944
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 4: I think it's in the music. It's all very cutesy

945
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 4: and weirdly enough, all of the stuff tangential to the

946
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 4: making of Citizen Kane is the stuff in the film

947
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 4: I really liked, you know, I watch a whole film

948
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 4: about how MGM was run at the time.

949
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 6: I would watch.

950
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 4: I loved everything to do with, you know, the California

951
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 4: gubernatorial race, anything to do with William Randolph Hurst. I mean,

952
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 4: all that stuff I just ate up. Those details are fantastic,

953
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 4: and the sorts of details that that Fincher handles really well.

954
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 4: It's just all the other stuff the manga with stuff.

955
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 4: I like that one.

956
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 6: And also it's a heresy.

957
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 4: The whole thing is a horrible heresy against against the

958
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 4: genius orson Welles, and I won't stand for it.

959
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: Well, there is the fact. I mean, I think that

960
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: the claim here that we're going to say the film

961
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: itself invites comparison is apt, and I don't want to

962
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: lean too hard on that because that defense has been

963
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: anticipated and dismissed. But the fact of the matter is

964
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 1: that there are some really large decisions made about mank

965
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: how to shoot it, how to direct it. The black

966
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 1: and white, the editing, the construction that all seemingly were

967
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: made in an attempt to emulate Citizen Kane, and all

968
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: of them are worse than Citizen Kane. And we talked

969
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: about that at the time. It's not just sort of

970
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: an arbitrary let's compare this film with the best film

971
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: of all time. It's kind of just an ongoing question of, well,

972
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: why would you choose to make the film this way

973
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: knowing that people are going to make the comparison and

974
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: find this film wanting if you were going to do

975
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: something so very similar, couldn't you have found better ways

976
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: to make it your own?

977
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just so it gets really banal the

978
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 4: references to me. I mean, the Rosebud moment was just awful,

979
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 4: Like with what does he have a like a bottle of.

980
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 6: Alcohol instead of a instead of a snow globe? Terrible?

981
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 5: All right, well, I think we've made I think we've

982
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 5: made our We've.

983
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 6: Shut this down. Costa Rica seems nice though.

984
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. So we always put out calls for letters about

985
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 5: anything else in the world of film, And here's what

986
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 5: about just that, Scott? Can you share it?

987
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 4: Sure, JP writes one of the film character tropes. I've

988
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 4: always been intrigued by is quote unquote even evil has standards.

989
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 4: Characters introduced as villains who's encounter with a quote unquote

990
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 4: greater evil shows them to have some kind of moral compass.

991
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 4: Quote I may be X, but I am not a

992
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 4: y end quote. I'm particularly fascinated by characters who draw

993
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 4: the line at being identified as a Nazi slash fascist,

994
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 4: even better with a strongly worded rebuke. Examples that come

995
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 4: to mind are Paul Cervino's patriotic American mobster and the

996
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 4: rocketeer quote I may not make an honest buck, but

997
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 4: I'm one hundred percent American. Or Maximilian Shells Senior Sergeant

998
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 4: and Sam Peckinpaula's Cross of Iron quote, I am not

999
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 4: a Nazi I'm a Prussian aristocrat, Balloch and raiders the

1000
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 4: Lost Arc, bristling when Indy calls them a Nazi, various

1001
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 4: incarnations of Magneto. I write this email sorrowfully in the

1002
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 4: early dawn hours following the January sixth siege upon the

1003
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 4: Washington Capitol. In the last twelve hours, I've been reading

1004
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 4: the rebukes against Trump from increasingly right winging political figures

1005
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 4: and journalists. In my mind can't stop applying this quote.

1006
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 4: Even evil has standards trope to real life people. So

1007
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 4: this is the line, Mitch McConnell won't cross a to

1008
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: get away from the heaviness of real life. I'd like

1009
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 4: to return to it as a movie trope and ask

1010
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 4: you all the following do you have any favorite examples

1011
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 4: of fictional movie villains or anti heroes who absolutely draw

1012
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 4: the line against a greater evil and a strongly worded

1013
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 4: line of dialogue or cliche is that amuse you, such

1014
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 4: as the villains who won't hurt kids or women, or

1015
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 4: insist on propriety, slash manners, and otherwise improper or ill

1016
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 4: mannered situations.

1017
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: I think the one that always stood out for me was,

1018
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: maybe because I saw it younger, and it just sort

1019
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: of stuck with you on an emotional level. Was Carol

1020
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: Burnette as Miss Hannigan in John Houston's Annie in nineteen

1021
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: eighty two, Like, here's a woman who runs an orphanage

1022
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: and hates children, which that in and of itself is

1023
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: just sort of a comic cliche. But I mean, she

1024
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 1: hates orphans so much that she has an entire really catchy,

1025
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: entertaining song about how much she hates little girls and

1026
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: how much it's sucks to be surrounded by little girls

1027
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: all the time. And you know, she's this big, dripping

1028
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: Disney villain worthy character who you know, punishes the kids

1029
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: and makes them live in squalor and makes them work

1030
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: all the time. And then at the end of the film,

1031
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Rooster threatens to kill a child. It threatens

1032
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: to kill Annie in fact, for profit, and she's immediately

1033
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: does a heel turn. You know that is it's okay

1034
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: to hate them, it's okay to abuse them. But you know,

1035
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: she's just a child, I believe is the line. You know,

1036
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: she's just a little girl, and she immediately turns on

1037
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: him and tries to fight him to save Annie. And

1038
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: I always thought that that was. There are enough stories

1039
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: where the heel turn doesn't seem particularly convincing, but in

1040
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: this case, you know, that line between I'm disgusted by

1041
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: where my life has fallen, but I'm not a killer

1042
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: of children actually seemed really appropriate and apparently very different

1043
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: from the original stage play where she was entirely fine

1044
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: with Rooster killing Annie and then at the end she

1045
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: gets to be in the big parade. You know, she

1046
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: gets her happily ever after as a result, which is

1047
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: kind of what you want for Carol Burnett character anyway,

1048
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: you know, for her to get a little bit of

1049
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: happily ever after along with everybody else.

1050
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 3: This is more of a like lighthearted example, but it

1051
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 3: stuck out to me because this past holiday season I

1052
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 3: revisited a film I haven't seen and at least twenty years,

1053
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: which is Home Alone, which I think has a really

1054
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: fun example of this trope in the whole Wet Bandit thing,

1055
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 3: where these two you know, house robbers who are willing to,

1056
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 3: you know, kill a child. By the end of the film,

1057
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 3: you know, one of them wants to flood every house,

1058
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 3: but the other is like, that's sick, like he calls

1059
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 3: it a sicko you're a sicko for wanting to flood

1060
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 3: this house when we're done robbing it.

1061
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,240
Speaker 1: Actually in the very same vein Like, another really fun

1062
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: one is Steve Martin as the sadistic dentist and a

1063
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: little shop of yours when Bill Murray comes in and

1064
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: wants to is very very excited to have his teeth

1065
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: worked on, and Martin is immediately repelled and chases him out,

1066
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: and he says the same thing, damn sicko. And you know,

1067
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,919
Speaker 1: he also is somebody who gets a big hilarious song

1068
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: to himself detailing all of the pretty perverted things he

1069
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: likes in life. But the line he will draw is

1070
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: torturing somebody who's actually going to enjoy it.

1071
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 3: Sick You're a sicko? Doesn't he call him this sick too?

1072
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: Literally? He says, goddamn sicko.

1073
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 5: This is a funny one. But I mean, I think

1074
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 5: one of the best examples of this is in The Godfather,

1075
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 5: where we have the corleoneo that will not enter the

1076
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 5: narcotics trade and it ends up being a problem for them,

1077
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 5: like that this one code of honor. Then they hold

1078
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 5: on to this one way of like staying old fashioned

1079
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Speaker 5: almost does the man and the end. It's it is

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00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 5: only a matter of time, you know before that that's

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Speaker 5: the way the business goes. So it's not a funny one,

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Speaker 5: but it's one I think it's used very effectively well.

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Speaker 5: We always appreciate it when our listeners share their thoughts

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00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 5: and their recommendations. If you feel so inclined, we can

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00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 5: feature your response on a future episode. To reach us,

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00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 5: you can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three

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Speaker 5: two three four nine and seven three zero or email

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Speaker 5: us at comments at Next Picture Show dot net. And

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Speaker 5: that's it for this episode of the Next Picture Show.

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Speaker 5: In our next episode, we'll look at another round, possibly

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Speaker 5: while maintaining the recommended blood alcohol level feature in the movie.

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Speaker 5: Tune in to find out for yourself, look for that

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00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 5: episode next Tuesday, or better yet, subscribe to The Next

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00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 5: Picture Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast of choice.

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00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 5: Even better still, you can support us on Patreon at

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00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 5: Patreon dot com, slash the Next Picture Show, find us

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00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 5: at Next Picture Show dot net, and follow us on

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00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 5: Twitter at at Next Picture pod so we always know

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Speaker 5: when a new episode drops. Until then, we're going to

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Speaker 5: be tenderly caressing Pino grape maybe visiting an ostrich farm

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Speaker 5: or too. As the sun sets on another perfect miserable day,