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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Last Friday,

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Speaker 2: I teamed up with Lance from the Canadian based politics

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Speaker 2: show The Serfs to talk about the tragic events of

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Speaker 2: last week in tumblr Ridge, British Columbia. On Tuesday, February tenth,

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Speaker 2: an eighteen year old named Jesse Van Rutzler killed her

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Speaker 2: mother and stepbrother in their home, then took two guns

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Speaker 2: and went to tumblr Ridge Secondary School, where she killed

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Speaker 2: five students, one teacher, and finally herself. Two other kids

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Speaker 2: were critically injured with gunshot wounds but have survived. The

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Speaker 2: shooter did attend tumblr Ridge Secondary School years ago, but

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Speaker 2: dropped out for the past three to five years. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of unclear. Jesse identified as a transgender girl. Tumblr

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Speaker 2: Ridge is a very small town with just twenty four

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Speaker 2: hundred residents in northeastern British Columbia. This was the worst

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Speaker 2: school shooting in Canada since nineteen eighty nine. The sequence

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Speaker 2: of events during this incident were very similar to the

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Speaker 2: Lelouche shooting in Canada ten years ago, where the gunman

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Speaker 2: killed two family members at home before going to a school.

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Speaker 2: During our conversation, Lance and I discussed the spread of misinformation,

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Speaker 2: how the online writers tried to weaponize the deaths of

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Speaker 2: these people for their own political agenda, and how the

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Speaker 2: shooters online activity shows a growing fascination with mass shootings

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Speaker 2: this past year. Here's that conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure everyone knows that right now in canada's a

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Speaker 3: nation in mourning. And I also did probably want to

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Speaker 3: start this out by reading the names of the deceased,

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Speaker 3: because it's one of the things that the families have

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Speaker 3: been asking for. And so the victims from the I'merridge

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Speaker 3: Secondary School shooting are Abel Wanza who was twelve, Ezekiel

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Speaker 3: Schofield who was thirteen, Kylie Smith who was twelve, Soybnoit

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Speaker 3: who was twelve, Takaria Lampert who was twelve, Shanda have

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Speaker 3: Iguanda Duran who's thirty nine, Emitt Jacobs who was eleven,

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Speaker 3: and Jennifer Jacobs who was thirty nine years old. So

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Speaker 3: I guess I'll start with Garrison. How have you been

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Speaker 3: processing and or tracking the story since it happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty horrifying incident that happened last Tuesday.

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Speaker 4: Very soon after it.

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Speaker 2: Happened, there was like right wing narratives trying to use

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Speaker 2: the deaths of these children and family members for their

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Speaker 2: own political agenda. And I started tracking that pretty soon,

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Speaker 2: and then also trying to like verify as much information

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Speaker 2: I about the actual circumstances of the shooting and who

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Speaker 2: the shooter was, you know, around that same time. Things

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Speaker 2: have gotten pretty clear now a few days later. But

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's been a nightmare to sort through all

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Speaker 2: this stuff, especially all of like the political opportunism being

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Speaker 2: done by a variety of right wing influencers and you know,

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Speaker 2: quote unquote news agencies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was doing the same thing. Like right after

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Speaker 3: the event happened. I noticed that there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of for people who don't know, right wing online operatives

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Speaker 3: like the plub Reporter and Juno News and cat Canada

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Speaker 3: and these are all very popular right wing social media

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Speaker 3: accounts on Twitter in Canada or at least based in

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Speaker 3: Canada for their origins, but then they usually get retweeted,

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Speaker 3: quote tweeted and amplified eventually by the far right in

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Speaker 3: the US, which has a very corrosive effect. And I

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Speaker 3: think but like by the time we're talking about this

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Speaker 3: right now, I saw that like Donald Trump Junior, the

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Speaker 3: son of the Presidents of the United States is doing

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Speaker 3: an entire I assume blowed out of his mind rumble

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Speaker 3: special on the shooting, just uniquely going after trans people

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Speaker 3: the entire time, Like for a small little town of

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Speaker 3: what like just over twenty four hundred people, that it

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Speaker 3: has to be beyond like a shell shock to first

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Speaker 3: have to go through something that's horrifying and then deal

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Speaker 3: with the international right wing apparatus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're going through the motions right like this

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Speaker 2: is not the first time, it won't be the last

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Speaker 2: time that they try to do something like this. It's

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Speaker 2: not getting as much traction, I think as it used

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Speaker 2: to do. There's a lot of other stuff happening in

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Speaker 2: the States around the time, Like news was breaking in

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Speaker 2: the States about the shooting that happened. It was Wednesday

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Speaker 2: during Pam Bondi's Epstein hearing, So there's been a lot

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Speaker 2: of other stuff happening. So I don't think they've gotten

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Speaker 2: as much like concentrated attention on this as some of

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Speaker 2: the online right has wanted to or you know, like

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Speaker 2: the Matt Walsh types lips of tech talk that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. But they're definitely giving it a go. It's gross, right,

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Speaker 2: it's gross to use the deaths of all these people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, not to mention the way the entire thing's

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Speaker 3: been framed is abhorrent. I mean, obviously, you know, we're

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Speaker 3: speaking from a perspective where we don't want to vilify

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Speaker 3: an entire group based on one, like, you know, horrifying

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Speaker 3: monster's actions kind of thing, right, because that doesn't happen

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Speaker 3: in the other direction for SIS people. And that's what

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Speaker 3: you got to be quick to point out. But I

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Speaker 3: feel like the Matt Walshes and the limbs of TikTok

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Speaker 3: have and it's a horrifying thing to say, but like

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Speaker 3: they're perfect narrative, right, It's kind of like a twisted

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Speaker 3: way something that're actually quite pleased about. It almost seems likely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they make a lot of money off this, Yes, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: They brought it off of human suffering and they try

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Speaker 2: to spread as much of it as possible.

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Speaker 3: The first aspect I was trying to look at the

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Speaker 3: story from was what it was, really, what are the

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Speaker 3: families themselves asking for? What does the you know, town

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Speaker 3: need long terms of support that kind of stuff, And

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Speaker 3: you move on from that, and then immediately it was well,

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Speaker 3: now there's just an overwhelming, very apparent right wing mechanism

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Speaker 3: gearing up, and it's going to be kind of devastating

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Speaker 3: for a country like Canada that doesn't really have maybe

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Speaker 3: or isn't as used to having the eyes of the

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Speaker 3: world from the transphobic turf side of the internet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about Jennifer Strang,

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Speaker 2: the mother of the shooter, despite being a self described

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Speaker 2: conservative libertarian and Jesse's mother, publicly supported her transition, made

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Speaker 2: posts in supported trans people. In July twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: she shared a LGBTQ Pride graphic reading good people don't

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Speaker 2: spend their time harassing marginalized communities and wrote quote as

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Speaker 2: a conservative leaning libertarian who lives in the North and

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Speaker 2: loves living in a small town. I really hope the

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Speaker 2: hate I see online is just bored old people and

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Speaker 2: not true hatred. Do better and educate yourself before spewing

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Speaker 2: bullshit online makes you look dumb, evolve. I normally don't

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Speaker 2: say anything. I normally don't go on shitbook to see

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Speaker 2: the keyboard warriors, and I know I can't control or

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Speaker 2: shield my kids from everything, but please, for the love

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Speaker 2: of fuck, can you get your shit together, so we

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Speaker 2: don't have to bring our kids up in a world

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Speaker 2: full of hatred. Do you have any idea how many

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Speaker 2: kids are killing themselves over this kind of hate? Please

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Speaker 2: stop the bullshit quote. So, pretty soon after this shooting,

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Speaker 2: based on an early active shooter report describing the shooter

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Speaker 2: as a quote unquote female in address with brown hair,

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Speaker 2: online right wing accounts started trying to identify who this

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Speaker 2: possible shooter was by looking at trans people in the

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Speaker 2: area of Tumblr Ridge. They misidentified one person who is

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Speaker 2: a relative of this shooter, but put out photographs of

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Speaker 2: them claiming that she was the shooter. This person is

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Speaker 2: now having to like lock down all of their accounts

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Speaker 2: and is scared to go outside to do the horrific

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Speaker 2: wave of harassment they're facing.

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Speaker 3: What is wild about that aspect of the story is

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Speaker 3: I've seen accounts like the Blood reporter who popularized, you know,

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Speaker 3: publishing that photo, but I think Rachel Gilmore is the

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Speaker 3: one who also pointed out that there was the misuse

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Speaker 3: of a photo in an actual CBC radio broadcast image

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Speaker 3: thumbnail as well, which it is also kind of just

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Speaker 3: shocking to hear because these are again innocent people who

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Speaker 3: might have targets now put on their back because they're

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Speaker 3: being directly identified as some kind of a mass shooter

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Speaker 3: or monster. And then in addition to that, like now,

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering how much of this is going to be

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Speaker 3: something that they're capable of containing, especially considering that it's

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Speaker 3: been still proliferated. Like I saw an account called bricks News,

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Speaker 3: which I assumed would be about bricks, you know, the

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Speaker 3: economic lines between a number of different nations, and instead

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Speaker 3: was publishing the false photo of again a completely innocent

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Speaker 3: person and sad like I think at the time, seventeen

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Speaker 3: thousand likes, you know, hundreds of thousands of impressions. It's

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Speaker 3: really dangerous.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean that's part of the intent here.

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Speaker 2: You know, places like Kubia Farms trailblaze a lot of

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Speaker 2: this quote unquote early research, and the point is to

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Speaker 2: cast as large of than as possible, to damage as

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Speaker 2: many trans people as they can using horrific events like this.

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Speaker 2: The cruelty is part of the point, and you know,

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Speaker 2: blame gets laid at a you know, a combination of

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Speaker 2: trends enabled mental delusion SSRIs and hormones, saying that those

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Speaker 2: things are causing the shooting well before we've any evidence

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Speaker 2: to determine what types of medications someone could be on

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Speaker 2: who they actually are, or any possible motive. One kind

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Speaker 2: of crude thing that I've seen a lot is right

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Speaker 2: wing accounts like you know, end Wokeness, allegedly Jack Pisovic

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Speaker 2: saying that you know, the shooter quote unquote gunned down

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Speaker 2: thirty five kids to make it seem like, you know,

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Speaker 2: massacre of such a such a large magnitude, right, The

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Speaker 2: number of kids that that have been killed and other

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Speaker 2: other people as well, obviously is like horrific. Thirty five

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Speaker 2: people were not shot in this shooting, though there was

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Speaker 2: twenty five people with non gunshot related injuries as a

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Speaker 2: result of the incident, and that is the number that

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Speaker 2: that people are framing as being, you know, total number

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Speaker 2: of people shot, which just isn't true. And then they

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Speaker 2: also very quickly start sharing you know, unsourced graphs. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you've seen stuff like this, right saying that you know,

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Speaker 2: trans girls make up the highest demographic of mass shooters

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Speaker 2: per capita. You see these things go all over the place.

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Speaker 3: By the world's richest men. He's sharing that a lot

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Speaker 3: online right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean and this is this has been a

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Speaker 2: thing the past three years. Right, this is something they've

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Speaker 2: been doing well before any any actual incident can be

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Speaker 2: even used to create data. They've they've created fake graphs

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Speaker 2: that show this, those factors that get people to you know,

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Speaker 2: believe these sorts of things. Right, There is certainly a

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Speaker 2: selection bias that determines which types of shootings gets like

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Speaker 2: a lot of media attention. And the other issue that

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Speaker 2: I've talked about a lot in previous shootings is there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of different definitions of a mass shooting, you know,

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Speaker 2: mass shooting versus a mass killing, versus like a school shooting. Right,

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Speaker 2: all these are different terms. Even the term school shooting

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Speaker 2: can be used to refer to a variety of very

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Speaker 2: different incidents revolving around gun violence.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: There can be gang related violence at a school. There

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Speaker 2: can be shots fired as an escalation of a physical fight,

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Speaker 2: Students bringing guns to school and accidentally firing them, which

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Speaker 2: happens more often than what you would think, like as

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Speaker 2: someone who just brings a gun in their backpack, not

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Speaker 2: intending to do a shoot, but it accidentally fires into school.

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Speaker 4: This happens multiple times a year.

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Speaker 2: There's you know, shootings there dormitories, right, those get counted

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Speaker 2: as mass shootings at like you know, a college dormitory.

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Speaker 2: It's in our personal violence. There's you know, neighborhood shooting

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Speaker 2: set effect, but aren't targeting the school like drive by

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Speaker 2: shootings or even something like the assassination of Charlie Kirk,

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Speaker 2: which some people have categorized as a school shooting because

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Speaker 2: was on a college campus. Right, But these are all

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Speaker 2: very different types of violence, right. These aren't like you know,

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Speaker 2: intentional you know, mass shooting violence where someone who's trying

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Speaker 2: to shoot as many people as possible and then usually

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Speaker 2: killed themselves.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: That's that's that's a different thing than a lot of

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Speaker 2: these other other things that I mentioned, but they all

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Speaker 2: get lumped under this one label of school shooting. And

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Speaker 2: all these different you know, data collection criteria could produce

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Speaker 2: very different stats. And depending whether you're measuring your injuries

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Speaker 2: versus deaths, you know, specific weapons like knives versus guns,

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Speaker 2: and how many years are being sampled, or if there's

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Speaker 2: connections to other violent activity, there could be very very

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Speaker 2: different results and how you categorize you know, mass killings

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Speaker 2: or mass shootings. The Mass Killing Database has six hundred

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Speaker 2: and thirty one incidents in the United States since two

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Speaker 2: thousand and six, of which about one to three gets

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Speaker 2: kind of unclear. One to three are done by people

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Speaker 2: who have been reported as transgender, which is an underrepresented

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Speaker 2: ample size. The Violence Project has one transgender mass shooter

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Speaker 2: in their database of about one hundred and ninety five

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Speaker 2: mass shootings, and according to the Gun Violence Archive, which

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Speaker 2: also measures gunshot injuries not just deaths, fewer than one

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Speaker 2: in one thousand mass shooters over the past decade have

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Speaker 2: been identified as transgender according to a Gallop poll for

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, but two percent of gen Z identify

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Speaker 2: as transgender, and if you also count like non binary people,

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Speaker 2: it brings it up to four percent. But you can

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Speaker 2: have all those stats on hand, if that doesn't really

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Speaker 2: do very much. Once you're arguing about statistics and like

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Speaker 2: semantics of terms, when kids have died, you're kind of

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Speaker 2: already starting to lose the emotional battle, right, Like I

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Speaker 2: can say all of that, but like that's not actually

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Speaker 2: going to be helpful, right, Like, fact checking doesn't work

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Speaker 2: to dissuade disinformation, And when you're dealing with such an

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Speaker 2: emotionally charge incident like kids being murdered. Having to read

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Speaker 2: off a paragraph like that just doesn't really help, right.

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Speaker 2: Parents just want to know why this is happening and

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Speaker 2: what can be un to stop it, And all they

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Speaker 2: know is that, you know, since twenty twenty three, there

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Speaker 2: has been a series of shootings done by young people

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Speaker 2: who either attempted to or did transition genders. Right, That's

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Speaker 2: what they know, and they want to know, you know,

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Speaker 2: why this is happening and how to stop it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I've tried to push up against,

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Speaker 3: because you are getting a lot of Americans who are

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Speaker 3: pushing that narrative right now, is to point out because

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Speaker 3: I've seen people saying like this epidemic of transmass violence

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Speaker 3: is a scorge and I think they're blending Canada in

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Speaker 3: the US into one nation because I was like, just

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Speaker 3: to be clear, this is the first mass shooting committed

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Speaker 3: by a transperson in Canadian history ever.

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of trans people in British Columbia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well across the country. I mean, it's one of

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Speaker 3: those things for him like this, this this is not

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Speaker 3: an epidemic of which like, oh my god, you have

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Speaker 3: a high probability of being hurt by a transperson in

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Speaker 3: your life. It couldn't be further from the truth, right,

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Speaker 3: Like the stats are still overwhelmingly in the other direction.

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Speaker 3: You're more likely to be the victim of physical or

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Speaker 3: sexual violence if you're a transperson, then if you're this.

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Speaker 2: Person, Yeah, no, that is another problem here is Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of these you know, data collection tools aren't

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Speaker 2: counting bolencing Canada.

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Speaker 4: These are all stuff based into states.

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Speaker 2: But for you know, the culture wars, it's not that

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Speaker 2: hard to you know, move that border up five hundred

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Speaker 2: miles to include things that are happening in Canada in

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Speaker 2: a rhetorical sense, for you know your Matt Walsh's or

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Speaker 2: end wokenesses, even you know your Fox News anchors, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this thing that people are talking about on the right

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Speaker 2: about this you know, epidemic of trans violence. What this

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Speaker 2: is also done is created like a counter reaction from

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Speaker 2: trans influencers to whenever something horrible happens like this, to

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Speaker 2: blame these other groups like you know nine A or

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Speaker 2: seven six four. Right, this has become something that's also

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Speaker 2: now been very consistent. You know, there is a kernel

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Speaker 2: of truth in this. This is based on a real

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Speaker 2: thing that has happened before, but the invocation of this

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Speaker 2: has often, you know, expanded greatly beyond it's actual, Like do.

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Speaker 3: You explain it for people who are completely unfamiliar because

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Speaker 3: I remember, like even a year ago, I had to

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Speaker 3: started reading up I like, what is what is all

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Speaker 3: this satanic cult for rituals with participation requirements of self

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Speaker 3: harm and all this stuff?

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Speaker 2: Like Okay, yeah, you see a lot of people now

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Speaker 2: when there's news coverage, you know a lot of trans

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Speaker 2: people who have you know, accounts online, you know, talking

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Speaker 2: about how quote unquote satanic Nazi pedophiles have groomed another

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Speaker 2: vulnerable queer kid into doing a mass shooting. There's a

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Speaker 2: viral tweet on semi viral tweet on Twitter right now

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Speaker 2: that reads quote fuck anyone talking about trends and not

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Speaker 2: to Adam Waffen. This includes the cops and the media

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Speaker 2: like the CBC and BBC. So yeah, what are they

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Speaker 2: talking about here? You know, Adam Waffin Satanic Nazi pedophile cults.

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Speaker 2: I said, you know nine A, seven, six four, right,

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Speaker 2: These are originally you know Ninea is this older group,

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Speaker 2: but as as contemporary internet lore, it is seen as

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Speaker 2: this neo Nazi occultic organization that grooms people into sexual

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Speaker 2: exploitation or into doing violence like mass shootings. Seven six

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Speaker 2: four is a extortion ring that operated mainly on telegram

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Speaker 2: and discord, which tried to get kids to do self harm,

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Speaker 2: produce blackmail kids. Yeah, they're active across a lot of places,

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Speaker 2: but like the organizing hubs were on discord and telegram

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Speaker 2: and they you know, attempted to get child sex abuse

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Speaker 2: material out of these kids and then use that to

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Speaker 2: blackmail them to get even more material than also encouraging

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Speaker 2: self harm and acts of violence.

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Speaker 4: These have been real groups historically.

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Speaker 2: They are getting cracked down upon pretty heavily, at least

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Speaker 2: in seven six four's case. Oh nine, it's not really

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Speaker 2: a real group anymore, arguably, but it exists as like lore.

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Speaker 2: And there has been no instances of a seven six

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Speaker 2: four affiliated people doing public acts of violence. So in

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Speaker 2: this case, there's been people who have you know, trans

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Speaker 2: people online or you know allies who have have said

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Speaker 2: that this shooting is another one of these instances where

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Speaker 2: these online groups of you know, Nazis and pedophiles have

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Speaker 2: you know, groomed someone into doing violence, and they have

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Speaker 2: produced some evidence for this. There was a Twitter account

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Speaker 2: that allegedly belonged to the shooter that had a profile

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Speaker 2: picture of a son andrad on top of a trans flag,

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Speaker 2: as well as.

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Speaker 4: The face of the christ Church shooter.

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Speaker 2: This account had posts glorifying white supremacist mass killers and

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Speaker 2: promoting the idea of creating a white homeland in the

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Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest. This was a Canada based account, but in reality,

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Speaker 2: this was actually just another Nazis account who changed their

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Speaker 2: user name to match that of the Tumblr Ridge shooter.

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Speaker 2: And this was an attempt to troll people and just

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Speaker 2: to spread disinformation. And this even fooled the ADL, whose

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Speaker 2: research standards have dropped dramatically the past three years. But

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Speaker 2: a few days ago, the ADL put out an article

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Speaker 2: where they credited posts made by this Twitter account to

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Speaker 2: the Tumblr Ridge shooter and claimed that a quote unquote,

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Speaker 2: preliminary investigation showed that the shooter had showed interest in

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Speaker 2: white supremacy. But this was this was not their real account.

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Speaker 2: This was just someone who also is a fan of

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Speaker 2: mass shootings like the shooter was, as we'll soon discuss,

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Speaker 2: But this was someone who was just trying to troll

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Speaker 2: other other you know, researchers on Twitter and see how

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Speaker 2: far their disinformation can spread. This is the consequence of

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Speaker 2: an organization like the ADL doing preliminary research based on

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Speaker 2: Kiwi of arms posts and not actually verifying the information.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the fact that I think they're actively pursuing

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Speaker 3: Hassan Piker more than Elon Musk is pretty much all

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Speaker 3: I need to know in terms of work where they're prioritizing,

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Speaker 3: you know, the search for racism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can get into the actual like online footprint

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Speaker 2: of the shooter, which we we do have a decent

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Speaker 2: idea of.

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Speaker 3: Actually, well before you get to that, because I think

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Speaker 3: that's what everyone is kind of interested in. I just

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Speaker 3: want to wrap up that last part. So just to

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Speaker 3: be clear, when you were mentioning those groups, you know,

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Speaker 3: seven six four, et cetera, there is no actual history

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Speaker 3: of the shooter having been into the Nazi the occults

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Based on their presence, they have not been active in

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Speaker 2: like specific seven six four communities or have showed interest

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Speaker 2: in like you know, white supremacy, neo Nazism, or you know,

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Speaker 2: the the occult pedophile Nazism of nine A. This is

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Speaker 2: not observable in the online for print that they have left,

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Speaker 2: which is which is not to say the online foot

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Speaker 2: print they have left is you know, normal and good.

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Speaker 2: If anything, it does point towards, you know, significant factors

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Speaker 2: that are causing kids to do shooting is like this,

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Speaker 2: and we can trace it to a number of shootings

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Speaker 2: that have happened. But the nine eight seven six four

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Speaker 2: thing is more so like a meme at this point

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Speaker 2: that people similarly deploy the same way that you know,

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Speaker 2: the right deploys the know this epidemic of trans violence.

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Speaker 2: This has to become like a counter meme to say

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Speaker 2: that every time a trans person does something bad, it's

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Speaker 2: actually the fault of nine eight and seven six.

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Speaker 3: Four, right, because there has been incidences in the past

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Speaker 3: that could point towards that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there could be there could be suggestions in the past,

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Speaker 2: and certainly when seven six four was more active years ago,

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Speaker 2: I mean a lot of the kids they were grooming

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Speaker 2: for child sexual abuse material were a lot of queer kids,

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Speaker 2: because those kids are uniquely vulnerable and are looking for community.

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Speaker 2: But I mean that is the majority of kids affected

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Speaker 2: by seven six four are people who have been groomed

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Speaker 2: into self harm or producing a child sexual beies material

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Speaker 2: to circulate among like the organizers of these of these groups.

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Speaker 3: So it turns out that there isn't really a connection

401
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 3: in those two directions, correct and putting out there, there's

402
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 3: a counter push like I did the same thing with

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Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk, right, Like I remember when the first image

404
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 3: of the Charliekirk shooter being in the krouperhitba the frog

405
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 3: style jumper. I was like, oh, this has to be

406
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,239
Speaker 3: a krouper, right, Like this immediately where my brain went

407
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Speaker 3: because they do have a history of targeting that community.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you can understand why there's a pushback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think people feel like they understand ideological

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Speaker 2: violence easier, like like violence caused by political ideology, and

411
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Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with the increasing amount of horrific public violence

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Speaker 2: that is seemingly linked to no political ideology. It's much

413
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Speaker 2: more like like nihilistic and scattershot, and that's like uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: It's harder to understand like the causal forces producing that

415
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: rather than just saying, you know, oh, it's another Nazi. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's easy and at this point sad like easy thing

417
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: for people to understand because of you know, a very

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Speaker 2: high number of neo Nazi mass shootings that happened in

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Speaker 2: the past ten years, but it is not twenty seventeen anymore.

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Speaker 2: And there's the circumstances that are inducing shootings like this

421
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Speaker 2: have have changed.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that, because, like you said, it's

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Speaker 3: a conversation that people don't want to have. Is it

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00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: because we are uncomfortable with the conversation itself, or because

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00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 3: there's not enough information available yet to truly understand what

426
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 3: is leading these super online shooter slash nihilistic you know,

427
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 3: deep in the memes style stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a mix of both.

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Speaker 2: It is both an emerging phenomenon so that people have

430
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Speaker 2: to observe it for a certain amount of time to

431
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: see the pattern. And then also it's it's uncomfortable and

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Speaker 2: it sucks. It sucks to be in these places and

433
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Speaker 2: like and like, look at all this stuff, right, Like

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Speaker 2: I've been the past few days. I've been looking at

435
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: you know, these horrible forum posts and reading about all

436
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 2: kinds of like you know, bad stuff, and it sucks,

437
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: and no one wants to do that. So I think

438
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 2: it's a mix of factors. But uh, yeah, I do

439
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 2: want to talk about that. That's the kind of the

440
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: I've kind of like two sections that get into that,

441
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: the first one based on her actual online footprint, the

442
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 2: second one on more like, you know, basic societal forces.

443
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: I think is getting people to go so far to

444
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: the social margins that pushes them to places like where

445
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: the shooter hung out online. So in twenty twenty one,

446
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: Jesse's mom shared a link to her kids YouTube channel

447
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: where quote he posts about hunting, self reliance, guns and.

448
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 4: Stuff he likes to do.

449
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 3: Quote.

450
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: This YouTube account shared the user name as Jesse's Reddit account.

451
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: The earliest posts from twenty nineteen were about like roadblocks gaming.

452
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: Then in twenty twenty one, Jesse started posting about firearms

453
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: and shared a photo of her Chinese SKS, which is

454
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 2: kind of like an a case forty seven style gun,

455
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: which she used for hunting. Around twenty twenty three, she

456
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 2: started posting about quote unquote starting MTF transitions soon and

457
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: as well as her phobia of needles. The police say

458
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 2: that she started transitioning before this, but the earliest indication

459
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: we have from her online activity pusts this around twenty

460
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 2: twenty three. On other posts on arsash trans asked for

461
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: advice on girl's clothing what to expect from HRT and

462
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 2: talked about body dysmorphia. Her very last gender related post

463
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: on Reddit still refers to herself as pre HRT. Jesse

464
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: made a single post on r slash trans Guns in

465
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: October twenty twenty three, sharing a video of her firing

466
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: a Desert Eagle handgun at a shooting range. At this point,

467
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: surround like the end of twenty twenty three, almost all

468
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: of her posts switch to being about psychedelic drug abuse,

469
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: asking how to vape or smoke weed without leaving a

470
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: smell in the house, being scammed by an online psychedelic

471
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: seller in Canada, and asking if you can get high

472
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: off drinking the urine from a drug addict, and asked

473
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: on Reddit if it's safe to do five moo dmt alone.

474
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: After she returned from the quote unquote psych ward, she

475
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: was admitted to a psychiatric facility after attempting to burn

476
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: down her home with account of aerosol while on three

477
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: grams of mushrooms. Jesse also said that she was diagnosed

478
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 2: with ADHD, autism, major depressive disorder, and OCD, and was

479
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 2: prescribed a mix of different SSRIs as well as an

480
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 2: antipsychotic for sleep. In one comment on one of her

481
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: multiple Reddit posts asking about trying five meodmt after being

482
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 2: arrested for arson, she wrote, quote, it is a wonder

483
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm still alive yet I am speaks volumes, But how

484
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: much I've been trying to keep breathing when all my

485
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: effort goes towards keeping alive quote. Her Reddit activity drops

486
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: off in April twenty twenty four. This could mean that

487
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: she just stop using Reddit around then, or that she

488
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: has deleted a whole bunch of posts. She did scrub

489
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: some of her online activity prior to the shooting. Now,

490
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of the shooting, the police have said

491
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: that they made multiple mental health related visits to the

492
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: shooter's home the past two years, and had previously confiscated

493
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: guns from the home, but the owner of the guns

494
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: it's unclear who exactly successfully petitioned for their return, and

495
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: Jesse did have a miner's firearms license, but that expired

496
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. It's unclear if the guns that

497
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: were confiscated with the same ones used in the shooting.

498
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: Jesse has posted a number of different photos of guns,

499
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: and we still don't know which exact ones were used.

500
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: We just know that there was a long gun and

501
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: a handgun recovered. So though the shooters like Reddit activity

502
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: ceases in early twenty twenty four, her online presence moved

503
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: to darker corners of the Internet, which demonstrate a declining

504
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: mental well being and a growing fascination with mass shootings.

505
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: The past year, Jesse was active on an Internet forum

506
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: called Watch People Die, which is pretty much what it

507
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: sounds like. It's the website to host footage of refe gore.

508
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, is that what it sounds like?

509
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: It is okay, right, you know, like snuff like real

510
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: gore is hosted there and shared, as well as a

511
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: lot of you know, like edits of mass shooter footage

512
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: of people filming themselves doing mass shootings that then circulates.

513
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: This forum is way more of like a social orbit

514
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: around this recent wave of mass shootings than seven six

515
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 2: four is. And you know, there is there is some crossover.

516
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: You know, there is some seven six for people who

517
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: are also you know, active on this form, people who

518
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: used to be seven six four, because that group is

519
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: also you know, not really what it used to be,

520
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 2: but this form is its own thing rather than being

521
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: linked to you know, explicit Nazi groups you know the

522
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: occultic OH nine A or the child's exploitation rings six

523
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: seven six four.

524
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 4: That the shooter is verifiable.

525
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: Online footprint suggests much more of a nexus of involvement

526
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: with what I've been calling the school shooter fandom. They

527
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: call it TCC or the True crime community, And in

528
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: the past two years we've seen an increase in shootings

529
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: based on this, like Neo Columnbiner variety Right people doing

530
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: copycats of other school shootings, the Abundant Life Christian School

531
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: shooting and December twenty twenty four by Columbine cause player

532
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: Natalie Simith Ruppnow, who the Right falsely labeled as trans.

533
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: There was also the Catholic school shooting in August twenty

534
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: twenty five by Robin Westman, who did at one point

535
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: attempt gender transition but later regretted it and originally planned

536
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: to attack an LGBTQ music venue. Westman was similarly obsessed

537
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: with mass killers and wrote the name of Repnow on

538
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 2: one of their rifles. Last April, a twenty two year

539
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: old man in Florida was arrested for threatening to commit

540
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: a mass shooting on discord. The FBI believes that he

541
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: was in communication with Samantha Repnow prior to her shooting,

542
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 2: and they both discussed with each other plans for their

543
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: mass killing attacks. In September twenty twenty five, a sixteen

544
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 2: year old named Desmond Holly shot two kids before killing

545
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: himself at Evergreen High School in Colorado. He also idolized

546
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: Samantha Rupdown, replicated her selfies, and was active on the

547
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: same forum Watch People Die that Repnow herself was active on,

548
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: so Jesse was on this forum, but Jesse also displayed

549
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: other traits similar of.

550
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 4: The TCC group.

551
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: Jesse created a mass shooting simulator game on Roadblocks, which

552
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: was set in a mall where you, you know, act

553
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: out a shooting and killing people in the mall. I'll

554
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about this this forum specifically now

555
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: Right like this forum essentially exists to desensitize people to

556
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: extremely violent content that glorifies mass killings. Jesse's very first

557
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: comment on Watch People Die was on a compilation video

558
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: of mass shooter footage, and she wrote, quote, I appreciate

559
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: this post. She also commented on another thread of mass

560
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: shooting footage quote I love these first person perspective type

561
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: videos when a shooter records his or her own actions.

562
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: It's always heat.

563
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: Unquote.

564
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: The most worrying comment is something that you know, if

565
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: police were aware of, should have should have been cause

566
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: to prevent this from happening. Came about five months ago.

567
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: In a thread on Watch People Die about the psychology

568
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 2: of watching Gore, she wrote, quote, I find it addictive.

569
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: It's hard not to watch violent content. I'm just drawn

570
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: to it. I don't think much of it, though to

571
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: say it doesn't affect me is likely naive. I'm sure

572
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: maybe subconsciously it does. It just doesn't feel like a

573
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: big deal. I'm drawn to substances too. It's easy to

574
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: get high and just to zone out into videos of

575
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: this stuff. Does it impact my mental health, eh, mine's

576
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: probably already fucked. I tried to stay away from watching

577
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: this type of thing before because it really sucks me

578
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: in and it's a massive useless time dump. But I

579
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: never really saw any benefit. I think the r words

580
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: in the comment section are more bothersome mentally than the videos,

581
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: so I try just not interact with dorks x D.

582
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: And these types of sentiments are not like uncommon among

583
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: people who regularly engage with this type of content.

584
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 3: I think it's an individual thing to ask you. But

585
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: at this point it almost seems as if like the

586
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: two biggest things that are often blame for mass shooting

587
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: that I have to push up against and I have

588
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: been doing to my whole life drugs and in the

589
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: other case, hyper online radicalization. Right, the history that you're

590
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: painting here kind of seems like someone who needed a

591
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: variety of help.

592
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: I'll reiterate that in like a sec Okay, yeah, I mean,

593
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: as I was reading this, this reminded me a little bit.

594
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: There was a shooting a few years ago at a

595
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: Fourth of July parade, the Highland Park mass shooting. The

596
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: sort of like writing that Jesse did in his post,

597
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: it reminds me of a bit of the writing done

598
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: by this this this other mass shooter to talk about

599
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: like getting like sucked into like like violent content or

600
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: this like this like idea of like it like beckons

601
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: you further into the concept. It's like almost like hypnotic,

602
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: very similar writing done by this other other shooter.

603
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 4: So one other post.

604
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: I'll reference that she made on this forum was a

605
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: video of a father hanging himself in front of his children,

606
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: and she claimed that her stepdad attempted the same thing

607
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: trying to kill himself in front of her when you know,

608
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: she was just a little kid, and she wrote, quote,

609
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: I wish his bitch ass would have died on the noose.

610
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: Then in they're probably better than beating your kids unquote.

611
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: So obviously, you know this person had like long standing

612
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: issues that at certain points seemed like better, right, Like

613
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: around twenty twenty one, they seemed to be doing better, right.

614
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: They were they were making you know, YouTube content about

615
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: about guns and hunting, and felt like they had some

616
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 2: more of like a had more of a stable social outlet.

617
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 4: And then around twenty twenty three with you know.

618
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: This, this like abuse of psychedelic drugs leading to this

619
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: mass shooter obsession. It's like a pretty a pretty clear

620
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: picture of like a mental spiral. Two months before Jesse's

621
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: own shooting, she did visit the Watch People Die profile

622
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: for Samantha ruppn Now, and if we're not talking about

623
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: like a causal factors, right, and especially like in reference

624
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: to you know this, this this idea that you know

625
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: parents have where you know they're there has been a

626
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: sequence of trans people doing shootings. You can argue about

627
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: you know, the per capita percent rates or like stats again,

628
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: but that doesn't go so far. But at a certain point,

629
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: I mean, we have to all be comfortable, or maybe

630
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: comfortable is the wrong worry, but we have to, like

631
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: you know, realize that like as more people you know,

632
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: transition right genders, is not this like immutable thing. As

633
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: more people attempt transitioning, there's gonna be some trans people

634
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: who do bad things. This happens with every social group

635
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: of people. To borrow from sociologist Mark Worrel, who wrote

636
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: about the social phenomenon of mass shootings, like destruction of

637
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: others is the means towards another end, the desire for

638
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: self destruction that the self was incapable of inflicting in

639
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 2: isolation a lot of the mass shootings and with suicide

640
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: or trying to get the police to kill you through

641
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: through suicide, like like the public shootings like this have

642
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: a very strong suicidal component, and some people might not

643
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: be able to do that themselves. They need to create

644
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: a social context in which they feel like they can,

645
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: and at least in terms of the States and to

646
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 2: a smaller degree in Canada, like these shootings like exist

647
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: as like this like cultural ritual, this like ritual of

648
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: destruction of this self and destruction of the self can

649
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: include the social apparatus that makes up the self. And

650
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 2: for like a young person, that's what that's that's their

651
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: family in school, the two things that were targeted in

652
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 2: this shooting.

653
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 4: Right, this this.

654
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: Network that makes up like my sense of self as

655
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: a seventeen year old, eighteen year old, it's gonna be

656
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: my family, which is you know, uh for Jesse, that's

657
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: that's her mom. She's been separated from her father for

658
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: for a while, as well as her stepbrother. And then

659
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: also this school that she used to used to go to. Right,

660
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 2: That's that's the sort of that's the network that makes

661
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 2: up your idea of this social And like I said before,

662
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: like as the trans community grows, there's gonna be some

663
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: overlap between anti social you know, mentally unwell individuals who

664
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: act out a mass killing as a suit aside and

665
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: disintegrated and socially underregulated people who try transitioning as a

666
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: way to ease tensions both internally and externally. And if anything,

667
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: I think transitioning can often be maybe one of the

668
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: healthiest ways to attempt to relieve some of these tensions.

669
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 2: But like being trans is like a marginal position in society, right,

670
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 2: And the people who commit school shootings and suicide through

671
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: mass shootings are at like the very very extreme end

672
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: of social dysregulation and like marginal isolation, and some people

673
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: in those latter categories will also try transitioning as a

674
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: method of social regulation. And in Jesse's case, like considering

675
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: all their posts about like mental health and drugs, never

676
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: once is being trans cited as like a point of

677
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: their distress, Like that's the thing that's causing them the

678
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: distress is it is a method of relief, at least

679
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: according to their own writing on Reddit, like the cause

680
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 2: of the distress or all these are these other things,

681
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: and like people can blame mass shootings or mass killings

682
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: on like any number of specific factors, right, such as

683
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: access to weapons, whether that's knives, firearms, bullying, substance abuse,

684
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 2: mental health and lacking mental health services and like mental

685
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: health oversight. But like the common base factor across you know,

686
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: most of those things is that there's like social disintegration

687
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: and deregulation happening. That that's like a failure to balance

688
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: like egoism and altruism, right, a healthy individual sense of

689
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: self as well as a place of belonging within a

690
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: larger social group, like we need a mix of freedom

691
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: and available structured paths for social life. Ritualistic outbursts of

692
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: suicidal violence against society happen when these things are extremely

693
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: unregulated and someone falls out of the social fabric. And

694
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: like marginal classes like trans people can be particularly affected

695
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: by social disintegration and deregulation. And like it's important to

696
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: note here, like this isn't caused by some like vague

697
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: medical condition like gender dysphoria like that, that's that's not

698
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: causing the violence, right prescribed estrogen, it's not a causal force.

699
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Inness we don't even know if Robin Westman or or

700
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: Jesse was even on estrogen.

701
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 4: We don't know. But these things aren't aren't causal.

702
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: But you know, these are social positions that include, you know,

703
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: these larger social factors that affect large populations. One of

704
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: those populations can be trans people. There's a lot of

705
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: social disintegration that affects the sist men currently, they do

706
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: a lot of shootings, and yeah, the overwhelming majority. You

707
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: can also graft these things on class lines. Lots of

708
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: people who go and do public shootings, either themselves or

709
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: their families are suffering from economic instability or or people

710
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: in like the middle class as well, which has this

711
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: this this other problem in like Durkheim's med methodology of suicide,

712
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: which I'm kind of pulling from a little bit here,

713
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: it's like this thiss, this sense of like overregulation can

714
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: also produce in unhealthy balance. So it's either you know,

715
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: very overregulating people, you know, like like Elon Musk has

716
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: too much freedom, has too much too much like access

717
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: to like money and possibilities, that he's then a very

718
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: dysfunctional person. This can happen with some probably like you know,

719
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: like middle class kids as well, that can produce violent outbursts.

720
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: But a lot of the time it's you know, lower

721
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: middle class or lower class conditions that can lead to violence.

722
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: And sometimes sometimes it does not go to the extreme

723
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: of doing you know, a mass killing. It can often

724
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: just result in like petty crime, which is do you

725
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: arguably a more healthy method of regulation compared to something

726
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: like a mass shooting, which is like you know, the

727
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: most desperate, the most marginal, like active suicide that we

728
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: could like envision as a society.

729
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: I just wanted to specifically say when it came to factors.

730
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: You're you're distinctly not saying that video games where we're

731
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 3: in any way responsible, and then I know you're not,

732
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: but I just like I people should note that when

733
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: you mentioned Roadblocks, people like I had I think my

734
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: mom and someone else asked like, oh, well, what's the

735
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: storyline for Roadblocks? And I was like, it's like asking

736
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: what's the story for Minecraft? Right, I was like, yeah,

737
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 3: I was like, these these are world building. It's it's

738
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: it's similar to seeing someone basically trying journal out their thoughts. Right.

739
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: I think in that she was building these these mass

740
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: shooting simulators, that wasn't her being influenced I say, by

741
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: some kind of like template that Roblocks had. That was

742
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: her showing, yeah, creating something to express something else.

743
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and that sort of like like cause player

744
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 2: replication very common among this you know, growing community of

745
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: the true crime community, the school shooter fandom, which which

746
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: attracts a lot of people in marginal populations, right, Like

747
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: the fact that Samantha Rupp now is like one of

748
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: the first like you know, assists female school shooters, like

749
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 2: is notable here and like a lot of like the

750
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: early like Columbine fandom on Tumblr was was young girls.

751
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 2: The fact that TCC is attracting like a wider net

752
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: than just CIS males, I think is in interesting, but

753
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: it points to these other social forces. I think condensing

754
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: it down to being like a certain mixture of SSRIs

755
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: and HRT is what's causing this, Like there's more psychedelics, No,

756
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: true for that, yeah, or psycholyst right, I mean, like anything,

757
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: these things can exist within a healthy equilibrium, right, Psychedelics

758
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: can be a very healthy tool for people to deal with,

759
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: like mortality.

760
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, absolutely right.

761
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: You know, whether that's you know, MDMA, ketamine or like mushrooms,

762
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: Like mushrooms are being used to treat people who have cancer, right,

763
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: to help them get comfortable with the idea of their

764
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: own mortality. These things can exist within a healthy equilibrium

765
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: of the social but they can also exist in an

766
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: unhealthy non equilibrium, right, And I think the types of

767
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: ways that Jesse was writing about psychedelics online, I think

768
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: demonstrates a very unhealthy use of these drugs, especially as

769
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 2: like you know, like a sixteen year old, right.

770
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 3: Like it's well, it sounds like self medication. It sounds

771
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 3: like unsupervised medication, and it also sounds like something that

772
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 3: was most likely acting as an accelerant, right, Like, if

773
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 3: you already have a host of other problems, if you

774
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 3: are introducing a very large amount of incredibly powerful like

775
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: you know, psychostimulants into you know what you're in ingestine

776
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: every day, then it's going to have potentially very very

777
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: dangerous outcomes. Yeah.

778
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: Again, these are largely correlating factor. It's not cause, not

779
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: causal forces. Right. The causal forces is this like social

780
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: disintegration and deregulation of which you know, abuse of psychedelics

781
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: can do a lot of damage to your sense of

782
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: self and your sense of self within like a larger

783
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: a larger community. And the fact that I think, like specifically,

784
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, the lacking mental health services, lacking like oversight

785
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: of these things in terms like a palsy outlook like,

786
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: these are things that we as a society should be

787
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 2: putting more work into. If you actually want to start

788
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 2: solving this problem, you can get into you know, larger,

789
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: larger things about you know, like the alienation of like

790
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: quote unquote late stage capitalism, which you know also can

791
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 2: be a factor.

792
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: In another accelerant, right, Like, I think a lot of

793
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: these are accelerants, right where every other thing that you've

794
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: been listening, and then it seems to me like, you know,

795
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 3: this compounded upon this, which compounded upon this and eventually

796
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 3: led you know, someone to looking up more and more

797
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 3: extreme content. Yeah.

798
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that I do want to mention, which

799
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: i've i've kind of seen seen discussed, is like that

800
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: this term like radicalization saying that you know, she was

801
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: like radicalized into this like violent content. This is more

802
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: of like a like a semantic note. I'm not sure

803
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: how useful like the term radicalization is in this case,

804
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: if anything. I think she was like desensitized to horrific

805
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 2: acts of violence through repeated viewing and was in within

806
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: communities that encouraged this sort of thing. I think that's

807
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: the way that I'm framing it as opposed to, you know,

808
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 2: radicalization makes makes you think of like politics and like ideology.

809
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 3: Right right or not Nazism or white supremacy or something

810
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 3: like that, right, Yeah.

811
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like it's not that they're getting like

812
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: politically radical, it's that they're they're dropping out of the

813
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: social fabric and desensitizing themselves to this concept of like

814
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 2: you know, horrific like societally targeted violence.

815
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: I know now that, like obviously, the right wing is

816
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 3: is decided that they're uniquely going to be attacking trans people.

817
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're aware of the shooter's father's

818
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: statements that were just made recently. The father intentionally uses

819
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: terms like I am the biological father, refers to her

820
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: with him pronouns, says that he was allowed to raise her,

821
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: that she was taken from him. Part of me is

822
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 3: also really fearful that this is going to be maybe

823
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: the future of the Matt Walsh lips at TikTok circuit.

824
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: Right here we have the case like the number one

825
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: horror story that every right wing you know personality always

826
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 3: talks about, right or that the myth that Elon Musk perpetuates, Yeah, exactly,

827
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 3: that this is somehow negatively impacting their children.

828
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 4: No, yeah, that is a good thing to keep an

829
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 4: eye on. I have not seen that.

830
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 3: In terms of, like, you know, your analysis, and I

831
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: appreciate it, by the way a lot. I hadn't thought

832
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: of it that in those terms, in terms of like

833
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: disconnecting from the social fabric itself, Is there things that

834
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: can be done? Is the recommendations beyond like obviously, you

835
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: know late stage capitalism, mass alienation. I'm not solving that tomorrow.

836
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: Sure, so yeah, I mean I'm not sure if I'm

837
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: gonna be able to solve that on a stream.

838
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 3: No, you have to. Isn't it called that could happen here?

839
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 3: Let's let it happen.

840
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, Like there's a lot of things that

841
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: we can do, like even just like increasing like social services, right,

842
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: like the like fund funding social services can be a thing,

843
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: like what what can we do to strengthen the social fabric?

844
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: Right?

845
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 4: Give people available paths for their life.

846
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: You know, that's through you know, education, free college, make

847
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: make life actually feel like you have a way to

848
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: exist within a social matrix. Canada already has, you know,

849
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: compared to the States fairly restrictive gun laws. There's are

850
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 2: a factor, but there's even mass killings like this that

851
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: happen you know in Europe where people find other means

852
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: of enacting them besides guns.

853
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 3: Japan that sits swords and knives oftentimes.

854
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, so like these things have some like

855
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: based social social aspects that are going to be the

856
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: things that you're solving. Is is kind of more challenging

857
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 2: rather than just you know, taking away guns, making drugs

858
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: that are already illegal harder.

859
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 4: To get right.

860
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: These things aren't aren't going to actually eliminate this problem.

861
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: But I mean, funding social services can be an aspect

862
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: of this. Having more comprehensive mental health care, free healthcare

863
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 2: check ins, you know, if that's a big thing in

864
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: the States. Canada has that to some degree, but still

865
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: there's obviously room for improvement. But I mean, now solving

866
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: these larger social problems, like that's the question of the

867
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: twenty first century.

868
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, you know, based on the story

869
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 3: that you're telling and the research you did, it does

870
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: really seem like this is one of those cases where

871
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 3: this doesn't happen often, but when you see it get

872
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 3: to that end state, this is pretty much right. The

873
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: patterns become a lot more evident. The obsession with prior shootings,

874
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: the mental health episodes, and now the combining that with

875
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: you know, a very very prolific psychedelic drug use, and

876
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: then here we are.

877
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: I mean, this person should not have had guns, right

878
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: at a certain point, their guns were taken away, our

879
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: guns and has taken away. If police knew about their

880
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 2: activity on these forums, I'm sure this wouldn't have been returned.

881
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: So there's there's there's certain things like you know, parents

882
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: being more aware of these sorts of like online spaces,

883
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: the school shooter fandom, you know, picking up signs of

884
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: you know, social isolation, how much how much time your

885
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: kid is just spending alone on the internet and you

886
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: might not be knowing what they're doing. So solving that's

887
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: you know hard because because the solution for a lot

888
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: of a lot of you know states is just like

889
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: increased surveillance on platforms like you know, discord age verification.

890
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: But those types of you know, guardrails don't exist on

891
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: a forum site like Watch People Die, right, you can

892
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: you can have a very you know, safe regulated discord

893
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: which just pushes people to you know, even more niche

894
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 2: even more dangerous parts of the Internet. You know, Watch

895
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: People Die started as a Reddit page that was you

896
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 2: know taken down like seven years ago. Now it's you

897
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: know a far a far less regulated, you know thing

898
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: that that kids are spending a decent amount of time on.

899
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: But you know, being aware of, you know, the risks

900
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: of this type of like social isolation, you know, is

901
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: also also a star. Ideally we do not have a

902
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 2: forum site, you know, dedicated to glorifying mass killings. But

903
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: banning a website is not so simple. It's easier to

904
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: than done, you know, figuring out a way to take

905
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: that down, right, I same problem with you know, like

906
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: eight kun or like you know eight chan back in

907
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 2: the day four and eventually keeping fire.

908
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: But this one seems blatant to the point of illegality,

909
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: and I don't want to I know, you don't have

910
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: time for me to start a topic.

911
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: But like, I mean, like eight quin's also illegal, right,

912
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: they host a lot of illegal content there. Finding a

913
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: way to take it down is still tricky. You know,

914
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: a lot of websites host illegal stuff. Just because it's

915
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: you know, illegal does does does not mean it's gonna

916
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: it's going to be solved. Like the legal pathway there

917
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: is is tricky.

918
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 3: But isn't the rule of something typically that if a

919
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 3: lot of those companies that provide them with the necessary

920
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 3: like d doos security, they're like through line seems to

921
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 3: be as long as it's not illegal, right, Like if

922
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 3: you're not running a child poor or sorry child sexual

923
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 3: abuse material website, if you're not running like an assassination

924
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: or cryptocurrency like excite, you're fine. Like but that just

925
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: does in practice doesn't work.

926
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: I'm unsure of the current hosting situation of Watch People Die,

927
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't be surprised if they went through the

928
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: same kind of loopholes by registering at like a certain

929
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: foreign country with has that had that that's very loose guidelines,

930
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: like you know, that was the thing with like ait

931
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 2: Kun for a while. But yeah, I'm I'm actually unsure

932
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 2: if the current the current like setup.

933
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 4: That Watch people that has.

934
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been talking about you know, TCC and this

935
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: the school shooter fandom increasingly the past two years, and

936
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: it's really tragic that it is something that i've that

937
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: is you know, a pattern that is that is continuing, right,

938
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: This is like the really the main the main force

939
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: across these shootings, whether you're you know, assist girls, this boy,

940
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: a trans girl, trans guy, whatever, whatever demographic you know, racial.

941
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: You know, there was the the Antioch school shooting in

942
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: January twenty twenty five that was done by this like

943
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: black ironic neo Nazi, similarly linked to TCC as well,

944
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: like whatever the demographic is. The through line that we're

945
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: seeing is this is this just like nihilistic obsession with

946
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 2: like the act of school shooting and this like fandom

947
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: that has developed around it.

948
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: Do you find the media picks up on that at all,

949
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 3: Like you've done a lot of research into do they

950
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 3: reach out to you? Like do they ever say.

951
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: Every every once in a while. But it takes them time.

952
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: It took them about three years after like the peak

953
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 2: of seven and six four to start reporting on seven

954
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: six four, And now there's seven six four articles all

955
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: the time, but it took them about three years to

956
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: like kept up to it. I would not be surprised

957
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 2: if in a year and a half we get tons

958
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: of articles about TCC, but a lot of legacy media

959
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 2: is very slow to this sort of thing. My own

960
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 2: Internet presence also exists kind of in the margins. My

961
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: monitoring is in the margins, but those margins can have

962
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, very very u destabilizing social effects.

963
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 4: But it does take a while.

964
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: I mean, same thing with the FBI, right, it took

965
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: them years to get on top of seven six four,

966
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: even though people were like reporting this stuff in like

967
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, but before seven six four, even

968
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: that organization there was previous iterations called the CVLT. But

969
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: like you know that that that style of thing was

970
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 2: was was a problem for years, and the FBI did

971
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: not really get on it until much later, and the

972
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: media then followed suit.

973
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: Right I do.

974
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 2: I just don't have trust in you know, the current

975
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 2: current American law enforcement threat to really be on it

976
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 2: right now.

977
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 4: You know, I can't.

978
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: I'm unsure of how that works in Canada at this point,

979
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: but certainly, certainly I don't think Cash Hotel's FBI is

980
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 2: going to be you know, on this one super super well,

981
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 2: even though they been trying been trying to, you know,

982
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 2: push some stuff like the nihilist Bilin extremist label, which

983
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: does cover stuff like this.

984
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 3: But I know this is controversial, but in my opinion,

985
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 3: it almost feels as if Cash matel is actively trying

986
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 3: to push narratives that will benefit this entire story that

987
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: we're talking about in the opposite direction, right Like if

988
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,720
Speaker 3: you're trying to push a narrative that Charlie Kirk's shooter

989
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: and we're not going to change topics, but I'm just

990
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 3: you know, bring this up because you mentioned cash Hotel,

991
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 3: you're trying to push narrative that he was in fact

992
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: trans or inspired by trans ideology or inspired by furries

993
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 3: or furry culture, et cetera. They've tried everything, and now

994
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 3: now we're at the point where it's like the loosest

995
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: of connections. It's like, well, there may have been a

996
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 3: lover who is or is not may or may not

997
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 3: be trends or non binary. We're not sure, but that's enough.

998
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 3: We got it. Cash Hotel will push the story.

999
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, this is this administration comes out of

1000
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 2: the same kind of network of influencers who try to

1001
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: grossly use horrific events to their own ideological advantage, including

1002
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: too you know, attack groups of people that they find

1003
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 2: to be bad as.

1004
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 3: Wow, because it turns out they're all pedophiles. They're all

1005
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 3: part of an elite group of insiders. And so let's

1006
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 3: start talking about the Epstein files for next time. My

1007
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 3: brain is I know, I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

1008
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 3: Where can everyone find you and your incredible work outside

1009
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: of listening to the amazing It Could Happen Here podcast? Yeah?

1010
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I I occasionally post about Yawi on

1011
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: on X the everything app at by shown in type

1012
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: I'm trying to post more about Yaowi on Blue Sky.

1013
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 2: There's just just not as much of it. But you know,

1014
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: maybe I should be the change I want to see?

1015
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 3: Is it not friendly the environment?

1016
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: It's more so that there's just not as many Yawi

1017
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 2: artists on Blue Sky. A lot of Yawi artists are

1018
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: shockingly Japanese, and this Japan has a very large presence

1019
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: on nextually everything app at least at the moment. I

1020
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 2: know some of their like AI image stuff is pushing,

1021
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: is pushing people to other platforms, but it's slow. But yeah,

1022
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 2: I'm on, I'm on, I'm on those two places. I

1023
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: also occasionally post photography at Instagram also by shown in type.

1024
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 3: And I suppose if you enjoyed listening to me getting

1025
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: informed by the only information you heard here today, you

1026
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 3: should check out YouTube dot com slash at the Surf Times,

1027
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 3: where I post videos and this one too will be there.

1028
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: Hey you can look at uh yeah, me in a

1029
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: black turtleneck talk about sad things.

1030
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 3: There you go. If you enjoyed the audio version and

1031
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 3: you want to see the visual version of it, head

1032
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 3: on down to YouTube dot com slash at the Surf Times.

1033
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us today. Okay, I

1034
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: appreciate it.

1035
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.

1036
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 3: It was it was a ton of fun. Well, Actually

1037
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 3: it was sad, but it was it was very informative.

1038
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the that's the needle. I'd try to threat.

1039
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it could happen Here is a production of cool

1040
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

1041
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1042
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

1043
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 4: You listen to podcasts.

1044
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen here,

1045
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.