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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. May fifth, nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: a fifty two year old Sacramento area woman returns to

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Speaker 1: her home in this Rosemont neighborhood, and as the sun

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Speaker 1: is going down, she walks in her life would never

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Speaker 1: be the same and was almost immediately accosted and assaulted

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Speaker 1: by someone who was lying in wait inside of her residence.

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Speaker 1: For the next over three hours, she was assaulted, sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: and various sexual acts were committed against her neighbors. The

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Speaker 1: dude gathered to talk at a house where Wednesday night,

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Speaker 1: a forty four year old woman came home to find

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Speaker 1: a rapist waiting for her. She was blindfolded, bound and

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Speaker 1: repeatedly raped and beaten for what police say was at

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Speaker 1: least an hour. Suspect physically attacked her, bound her, and

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted her. In the first two cases, women were

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Speaker 1: raped and tortured with a knife in their own home.

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Speaker 1: In the third case, he reportedly used a stun gun

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Speaker 1: and dragged a college student off and committed quote monstrous crimes.

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Speaker 1: How does one man get away with repeated rapes and

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Speaker 1: for years? I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. And could it be true

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Speaker 1: that this rapist a brutal rapist? And I've tried a

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Speaker 1: lot of rape cases. This is a brutal rapist that

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Speaker 1: enjoys torturing his victims. Is it true that evidence indicates

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Speaker 1: he spent years in town there in the bustling city

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Speaker 1: of Sacramento, at Sacramento State University, even working as a

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Speaker 1: part time lecturer on law enforcement. I'm telling you something again,

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Speaker 1: I've tried a lot of rape cases. This guy needs

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Speaker 1: to rot in hell with me right now, and all

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Speaker 1: star lineup very special guests joining us from Sacramento. The

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Speaker 1: Sacramento District Attorney and Marie Shubert. Also with us, the

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Speaker 1: Sacramento Police Chief, Daniel Hahn, George Skiro DNA expert, Scales

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Speaker 1: Biological Laboratory, Inc. Renowned forensic expert, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, judge, trial lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and Ask Wilcott dot Com. Ash Wilcott joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mac Dave. I

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Speaker 1: know what a rape is all about, as does every

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Speaker 1: woman listening to this story right now. But this isn't

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Speaker 1: just a story. These are real victims that suffered. You know,

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Speaker 1: people say, oh, they'll get closure when the purpose finally arrested.

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Speaker 1: There's no such thing. It affects you the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life. But just tell me something, Dave Mack. How

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Speaker 1: many rape victims are we talking about that we know of?

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Speaker 1: And how does this guy elude police? I think the

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Speaker 1: key as you said, that we know of because when

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Speaker 1: you look at what we're actually charging them with. Between now,

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Speaker 1: it's between nineteen ninety two and nineteen ninety four. Two

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Speaker 1: of the women were attacked in their homes where he

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Speaker 1: was lying in wait, and the third one was apparently

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Speaker 1: particularly heinous, where he grabs a twenty two year old

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Speaker 1: off a jogging trail, uses a stun gun, and then

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Speaker 1: drags her off and attacks her. So we've got different

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Speaker 1: mos here in the same guy. The one thing we

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Speaker 1: have is the DNA linking him to all three of those.

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Speaker 1: But then you mentioned he actually was a guest lecturer

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Speaker 1: about law enforcement and ended up spending ten years in

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Speaker 1: sacrament minto before he leaves to work in the federal

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Speaker 1: penal system. He was hiding in plain sight, you know.

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Speaker 1: To Sacramento Police Chief Daniel Hahn again, Welcome Daniel and

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Speaker 1: to Attorney Schibert. Daniel, I gotta ask you a question

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Speaker 1: toward the last let me just think maybe seven years

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Speaker 1: that I prosecuted, I began to specially lies and cereal

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Speaker 1: murders and cereal rapes. When you start seeing similarities between

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Speaker 1: rapemo modus operandi method of operation, it's just got to

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Speaker 1: drive you crazy knowing this may be the same guy.

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Speaker 1: What about when the ms are different and you can't

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Speaker 1: really link them together. Yeah, well, normally we don't see

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Speaker 1: two distinct differences, but this one there was. And this

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Speaker 1: one's also unique in that Amory, when she was a

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Speaker 1: deputy DA and one of our retired detectives now submitted

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Speaker 1: for the first John Doe warrant based on DNA in

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Speaker 1: California back then, and this is the one. So they're

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Speaker 1: the detective. This was one of his only open cases

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Speaker 1: and now it's solved. So there's great work by the

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Speaker 1: detectives and Amory. Take a listen to our Fanbecca Haybecker.

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Speaker 1: This was one of the three attacks that fifty nine

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Speaker 1: year old Mark Mantufflo is accused of committing between nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two and ninety four. One woman was raped in

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Speaker 1: her Sacramento County home. Another woman was attacked on a

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Speaker 1: jogging path and Davis, and a third woman was raped

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Speaker 1: in her home in Sacramento. All three women survived their attacks.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that the victim in the case

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Speaker 1: out of Yolo County has been notified that the man

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Speaker 1: who did this to her is in custody. She's very happy.

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Speaker 1: At a news conference Monday afternoon, Sacramento area law enforcement

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Speaker 1: explained just how they connected three crime scenes from the

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Speaker 1: early nineties to this guy who was arrested at his

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Speaker 1: home near Atlanta on Friday. We knew these crimes were

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Speaker 1: all committed by the same suspect because they were linked

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Speaker 1: by DNA left at each of the three crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: This is so critical right now, the investigative tool of

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Speaker 1: linking DNA with me Sacramento's District Attorney Anne Marie Sheebert,

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Speaker 1: District Attorney Shebert, please explain why this is so critical

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Speaker 1: that this type of genealogical DNA be allowed across the country. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's no question that since the arrest of the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer, that this new tool and law enforces using

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Speaker 1: is really changing the world. I mean, it's it's helping

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Speaker 1: us go back decades. I mean we know from the

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Speaker 1: Golden State Killer it's gone back forty years. We've seen

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Speaker 1: over sixty cases across the country that in just over

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Speaker 1: a year where individuals that, as Dave says, they're just

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Speaker 1: living right amongst us have been identified. At least three

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Speaker 1: cases now have been resolved. That one horrific one was

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Speaker 1: the kidnap, rape, and murder of April Tinsley. But you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no questions changing the world. It's just it's bringing

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Speaker 1: people to justice. It's lifting clouds off of individuals who

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Speaker 1: had been suspected for years where were in fact innocence,

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Speaker 1: And ultimately it's making our communities safer. And really the

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Speaker 1: most important thing is prosecutors and law enforces. It's giving

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Speaker 1: hope to victims that they long thought perhaps was had vanished.

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Speaker 1: So it's a tremendous tool that we're going to continue

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Speaker 1: to use within our power and do everything we can

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Speaker 1: to make our community safe. And speaking of April Tinsley,

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Speaker 1: that District Attorney Emory Shebert just brought up Listen to

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Speaker 1: Kate saw eight year old April Tinsley went missing walking

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Speaker 1: to a friend's house. Her body was found in a

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Speaker 1: ditch thirty years. Thirty years as family has waited for answers,

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Speaker 1: Tinsley's killer taunted detectives with a message scrawled on a barn,

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Speaker 1: then in two thousand and four, threatening notes found on

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Speaker 1: young girl's bicycles. But after all these years, it only

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Speaker 1: took weeks to solve the case. Using a new cutting

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Speaker 1: edge DNA analysis, Parabon Labs compared the suspects DNA to

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Speaker 1: a public database of genealogy information results people get from

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Speaker 1: a test like twenty three and me. They found distant

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Speaker 1: cousins to build the family tree backward, then looked for

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Speaker 1: descendants and narrowed the search to two brothers. It really

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Speaker 1: had to be one or the other because they were

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Speaker 1: carrying the right mix of DNA. Investigators collected DNA from

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Speaker 1: one of the brothers trash and got a match. John

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Speaker 1: Miller was arrested Sunday. In just three months, Parabon has

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Speaker 1: identified four other killers and is working forty more cases.

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Speaker 1: According to April, Tinsley's family allegedly get enclosure as fifty

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Speaker 1: nine year old perp sentenced to eighty years behind bars.

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Speaker 1: This is thirty years after he rapes and kills an

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Speaker 1: eight year old little girl, then taunting cops with condom

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Speaker 1: clues their words to him burn in hell, you monster.

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Speaker 1: I feel the same way and thank God for this

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Speaker 1: new tool. Genealogical DNA crime stories with Nancy Grace, eight

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Speaker 1: year old April Tinsley went missing walking to a friend's house.

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Speaker 1: Her body was found in a ditch. Thirty years thirty years,

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Speaker 1: this family has waited for answers. Tinsley's killer taunted detectives

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Speaker 1: with a message squelled on a barn, then in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four, threatening notes found on young girls bicycles.

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Speaker 1: But after all these years, it only took weeks to

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Speaker 1: solve the case. Using a new cutting edge DNA analysis,

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Speaker 1: Parabon Labs compared the suspects DNA to a public database

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Speaker 1: of genealogy information results people get from a test like

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Speaker 1: twenty three and me. They found distant cousins to build

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Speaker 1: the family tree backward, then looked for descendants and narrowed

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Speaker 1: the search to two brothers. It really had to be

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Speaker 1: one or the other because they were carrying the right

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Speaker 1: mix of DNA. Investigators collected DNA from one of the

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Speaker 1: brothers trash and got a match. John Miller was arrested Sunday.

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Speaker 1: In just three months, Parabon has identified four other killers

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Speaker 1: and is working forty more cases. What a perv. This

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Speaker 1: guy not only rapes and kills an eight year old girl,

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Speaker 1: throwing her body into a ditch like she's trash, but

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Speaker 1: then taunts investigators and cops, leaving condoms rubbers as clue,

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Speaker 1: taunting notes saying he did the crime. Mother Janet Tinsley

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Speaker 1: begged prosecutors to seek the death penalty against Miller. The

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Speaker 1: case goes cold for a long long time, and then finally,

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Speaker 1: thanks to genealogical DNA, he is behind bars and let

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Speaker 1: me go to you Special guest George Skiro DNA expert

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Speaker 1: with Skills Biological Laboratory, Inc. George, I remember the first

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Speaker 1: time I tried a DNA case. I didn't really even

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Speaker 1: understand what I was dealing with, but I insisted the

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Speaker 1: crime lab bring in blowups of what they could see

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Speaker 1: under the microscope so I could explain it to the jury.

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Speaker 1: He got up there with all it looked like a

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Speaker 1: bad film from an old camera that you just unroll.

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Speaker 1: I looked at it, I looked at the jury, and

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Speaker 1: I said, why don't you just try to explain it

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Speaker 1: to us verbally, because unless you are a scientist and

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Speaker 1: you're looking at this, it just it looks like a

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Speaker 1: bunch of dots. So explain to me, how do I know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the odds are like one in five trillion

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Speaker 1: that this is the guy. I mean, the odds are incredible.

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Speaker 1: You're You're dead the water if you get a DNA match.

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Speaker 1: Explained to me, what geneological DNA is, a white It's

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Speaker 1: so important, Nancy. Geological DNA is a different type of

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Speaker 1: DNA than we look at in crime labs and forensic works.

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Speaker 1: It's actually looking at physical locations on the chromosomes that

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Speaker 1: are that are very close together, so that when these

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Speaker 1: are passed down through families, they're linked. So that that's

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Speaker 1: why they can go out so far and look at

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Speaker 1: these second cousins and third cousins. Then once they get

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Speaker 1: that DNA match to a potential relative, they can use

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Speaker 1: conventional genealogical methods to backtrack and look at family trees,

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Speaker 1: build a family tree to get back to the individual itself.

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Speaker 1: Then what can be done is once they find that individual,

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Speaker 1: they can take okay, wait a minute, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm drinking out of the fire hisrant right now. It

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Speaker 1: is just too much, too fast. I'm trying to compare

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Speaker 1: what you're telling me. You know, Paul holds one of

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Speaker 1: the detectives on the Golden State killer case. He actually

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Speaker 1: had to draw a chart for me to understand this,

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Speaker 1: George Skuiro, because I thought, you know, foolishly that you

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Speaker 1: have DNA from the murder of the rape and then

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Speaker 1: through let's just say, one of these genealogical websites where

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Speaker 1: people trace themselves back to Ireland, okay, where everybody is

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Speaker 1: from Ireland, and I thought it was just that simple.

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Speaker 1: It's not. You have to go back generations and generations

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Speaker 1: and generations, and you take this grandma, this great grandfather,

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Speaker 1: and you take it all the way down multiple generations

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Speaker 1: to get a match. Now, can you just explain this

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Speaker 1: in a nutshell, Squiro, We're not all scientists like you, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a j D. Break it down. Well, essentially,

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Speaker 1: it's looking for links between families and then following those links,

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Speaker 1: following those breadcrumbs till you get to that individual you're

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Speaker 1: looking for, and then you can take his DNA and

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Speaker 1: compare it to the forensic DNA sample and see if

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Speaker 1: there's a match, and that's what gives you those huge

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Speaker 1: numbers in terms of making an identification. Dirig attorney from

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Speaker 1: Sacramento A. Marie Shebert with us DA. Shebert. I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why there is opposition to genealogical DNAs. Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just I think there's just you know, some people out

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Speaker 1: there that privacy individuals. But I think it's important for

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Speaker 1: people to understand is that cops never get their hands

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Speaker 1: on people's DNA and these genealogy sites. It's not like

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Speaker 1: they're out there, you know, collecting somebody's actual profile. And

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Speaker 1: if that's an important message that the public needs to understand,

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Speaker 1: is that they're simply giving a given a list. Like

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Speaker 1: everybody else that decides to go on to one of

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Speaker 1: these sites to find their biological parents or you know,

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Speaker 1: adoptees do this, or individuals that were products of perhaps

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Speaker 1: firm donors, cops are never given than that actual profile.

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Speaker 1: They're simply said, well, you might you might have this relative,

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Speaker 1: second cousin twice removed, and that's what they take. So

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Speaker 1: they're never doing anything with some of these actual profiles.

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Speaker 1: The profile they have is the bad guys who left

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Speaker 1: it behind. As the crime seats. So that's what's important

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Speaker 1: to remember is that, and it's an incredible tool that

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. You know, we expect our law enforcement to

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Speaker 1: keep us safe. And what we're doing, what people like

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Speaker 1: Chief Han and our sheriff and our law partners are doing,

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Speaker 1: is they are doing everything they can within the balands

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Speaker 1: of the law to make sure that they are identifying

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Speaker 1: and violent criminals. We're not going after people that are

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Speaker 1: breaking into cars. We're simply going after individuals who have

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Speaker 1: committed horrific, horrific crimes. You know, one of the victims

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Speaker 1: that I saw one time on the Golden State Killer said,

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Speaker 1: you know, this wasn't a rape that lasted three hours,

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Speaker 1: it lasted forty two years. So we have to remember

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Speaker 1: that we are balancing privacy versus public safety, and when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about when we're talking about violent criminals, we're

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Speaker 1: doing using the tools that we have within the bounds

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Speaker 1: of the law to bring those people to justice. Joining

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Speaker 1: me forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan Just Scott, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me wrap my mind around this, because I understand DNA.

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Speaker 1: I understand DNA matches, I understand how you get DNA,

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Speaker 1: but on these genealogical websites, in my mind, there's not

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Speaker 1: really a privacy issue because someone somewhere in your family

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Speaker 1: has given a DNA sample, usually through saliva. The Constitution

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Speaker 1: protects you from police banging down your door, no offense,

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Speaker 1: police Chief Daniel on or forcing you to give a confession,

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Speaker 1: all right, But the Constitution does not protect you from

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Speaker 1: somebody and your family or a distant relative from handing

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Speaker 1: over their DNA to a website. Yes, right, Nancy, that

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Speaker 1: that is not the case. You're not protected constitutionally from something,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that a familial connection has done. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's not off limits at this point. I think that

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Speaker 1: echoing what the DA said, I think that there are

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Speaker 1: privacy concerns among certain people because they just don't understand.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that needs to happen is

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Speaker 1: further education about this, just so that people feel safe,

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Speaker 1: because as you stated, it's confusing. It is. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's confusing. I teach lightly teach DNA to criminal justice students,

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Speaker 1: and still at the end of the day, it's still

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Speaker 1: you know, you'll see big question marks over their heads,

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Speaker 1: you know, wondering, well, how does all of this work?

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Speaker 1: Because the science behind it is highly complex too. Judge

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott joining me. Ashley, here's the bottom line. When

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Speaker 1: Jesscott Morgan says, trying to explain it to people, the

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Speaker 1: defense bar understands full well. They're not idiots, Okay, they

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Speaker 1: understand full well what DNA is, how it works, and

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Speaker 1: how this works genealogical DNA. So what is the possible complaint?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm so proud of District Attorney Amory Schubert

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Speaker 1: in Sacramento Police Chief Daniel Han. They've got a violent

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Speaker 1: rapist off the street. You don't like geneological DNA, Fine,

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Speaker 1: you invite him over to your house for Sunday dinner

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Speaker 1: and to spend the night. That'll be a cold day

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Speaker 1: in hell when that happens. Nobody wants them in their neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: But they don't want Amory Schubert and Daniel Han to

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Speaker 1: use geneological DNA. What's the argument, Well, let me start

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Speaker 1: first by saying I completely agree that the interest of

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Speaker 1: the public far outweighs the right to privacy. If Defense

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Speaker 1: wants to argue right to privacy. Now, don't interrupt, because

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Speaker 1: I know you're about to scream there's no privacy. But

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Speaker 1: I think defense attorneys and zealously representing their client. Whether

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Speaker 1: I agree with it or not, there's a constitutional right

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Speaker 1: they have to being represented. They are arguing, listen, they

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Speaker 1: did have a right to privacy because perhaps he did

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Speaker 1: not submit his own DNA, perhaps a different family members

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Speaker 1: submitted their DNA and it led to him, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to argue. And I don't agree with this argument,

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Speaker 1: so don't misunderstand me, listeners, but they are going to

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Speaker 1: try to argue even if he chose to do it,

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Speaker 1: he was doing it to a company to get the

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Speaker 1: results for himself, not for law enforcement to be able

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Speaker 1: to access, and that there does exist a right to privacy.

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Speaker 1: This is a new area of law. Again, I believe

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Speaker 1: they can completely legally be obtained with subpoena like the

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Speaker 1: police have done. However, I think a defense attorney's going

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Speaker 1: to argue, Listen, new area of law. We want courts

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Speaker 1: to rule on this because there is a right to privacy.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Yeah, you're shocked. People who

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Speaker 1: live in this East Sacramento neighborhood where Mark Mantefel lived

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Speaker 1: for more than a decade. Couldn't believe he's being charged

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Speaker 1: in several violent rape cases between nineteen ninety two and

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Was not in the neighborhood. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean he was a quiet guy, but you know he

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Speaker 1: talked to you. Helpful neighbors say Mantefell helped rewire their home.

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Speaker 1: He also attended sach State, even lectured there in the

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Speaker 1: fall of nineteen ninety three, according to school officials. He

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Speaker 1: also worked in the federal prison system as an administrator,

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Speaker 1: retiring in Florida back in twenty fourteen. But police say

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Speaker 1: he's sexually assaulted three women decades ago. In the first

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Speaker 1: two cases, women were raped and tortured with a knife

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Speaker 1: in their own home. In the third case, he reportedly

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Speaker 1: used a stunt gun and dragged a college student off

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Speaker 1: and committed quote monstrous crimes. Our friend Rachel Wolf at

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Speaker 1: CBS thirteen, you're here, neighbors to Mark Mantifal, reacting reacting

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Speaker 1: to the discovery that he is a brutal rapist. After

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Speaker 1: lecturing on criminal justice and working within the system, the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system, he moves clear across the country as

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Speaker 1: far away from his crimes as he could get to

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Speaker 1: the other side, to the east coast from the west coast.

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Speaker 1: But DNA manages to track him down. And believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, all of you ladies listening, all of you

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Speaker 1: men listening who have a wife, a daughter, a sister,

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Speaker 1: and of course you had a mother, imagine this guy's

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Speaker 1: foot coming through her kitchen window one night. And now

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Speaker 1: there are opponents to the use of genealogical DNA with

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Speaker 1: me special guests Sacramento Police Chief Daniel Hahn and the

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Speaker 1: elected District Attorney of Sacramento and Marie Shubert. I just

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. I guess I should know by

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Speaker 1: now that a defense attorney is paid and ethically bound

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Speaker 1: to do everything they can under the law to get

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Speaker 1: the client off. But good grief, this guy, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the neighbors thought he was such a nice, quiet guy

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Speaker 1: that blended into the neighborhood. I wonder how many rapes

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Speaker 1: he committed or other crimes he committed where he potentially

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Speaker 1: used a condom or didn't leave DNA to Amrie Schibert,

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Speaker 1: what do you say to your opponents? Well, what I

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Speaker 1: say to the opponents is that we're striking the right balances.

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Speaker 1: You know, our jobs in law enforcement is to protect

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Speaker 1: the community, to bring dresses to victims, and to remove

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Speaker 1: violent predators from our community. And that's exactly what this is.

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Speaker 1: An investigative lead. It's no different than a match off

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Speaker 1: the DNA databank from CODIS. It's giving Chief Han or

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Speaker 1: our law enforcement partners a lead, which then they go

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Speaker 1: out and do their jobs and they identify these individuals.

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Speaker 1: And so when somebody wants to say this is you know,

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Speaker 1: they don't like it, Well, they don't like it because

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Speaker 1: people get caught. And that's the reality. The public overwhelmingly

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Speaker 1: supports us. We know that because studies have been done

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Speaker 1: since the arrest in the Golden State killer were the

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Speaker 1: public ninety percent of the public plus wants us to

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Speaker 1: use it for violent crime. To help us solve missing persons,

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Speaker 1: help us solve crime, evolving children, help take rapists and

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Speaker 1: murders off the street. You know, to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge,

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer, and anchor, I compare this if I were

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Speaker 1: doing an appellate brief on this to the theory of

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Speaker 1: the plain view doctrine. In other words, let's just pretend,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, that I walk by your giant, luxurious suv

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Speaker 1: and I look in and I see less seasons marijuana

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Speaker 1: is legal in so many places. Let me just say,

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Speaker 1: a line of coke? All right? I see it's right

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Speaker 1: there on your dashboard. You've been snorting up again at

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Speaker 1: lunchtime in your suv. Ashley. I hate to tell you this,

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Speaker 1: so I catch you. It's in plain view. You left

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Speaker 1: it there. And then your defense is, I didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: My best friend Joe got Morgan dented. That's not gonna work.

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Speaker 1: It's in plain view. It doesn't really matter anymore. It's

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Speaker 1: your car. Long story short, with genealogical DNA the target.

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Speaker 1: This guy Mark Matefeld may say I didn't give my DNA.

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Speaker 1: You didn't have the right to do that. Well, somebody

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Speaker 1: and your family did, and it's out there for me

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Speaker 1: to find in plane view, and you're busted. Tell me

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with that argument, Ashley. I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: anything wrong with that argument, But I want to add

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Speaker 1: something to that. Nancy. Don't forget the judicial system is involved.

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Speaker 1: So it's not as if law enforcement went out and said,

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Speaker 1: half cocked, we're going to get all of these samples

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Speaker 1: of DNA, and we're going to start comparing them. No,

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Speaker 1: they had to go through the judicial process, which again

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Speaker 1: is in place to safeguard constitutional rights. So a judge

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Speaker 1: had to sign a warner, they had to get a

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Speaker 1: subpoena that said they could access this, and so that's

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Speaker 1: another safeguard to ensure they're not just going out and

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Speaker 1: looking and going into homes and pulling information to say,

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Speaker 1: we're going to consider whether these hundred residents did this. Instead,

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Speaker 1: rather they're using the system in place, just like you're

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Speaker 1: saying in plane view, it protects individuals and if you

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Speaker 1: want to engage in criminal activity, there's absolutely a right

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Speaker 1: for a judicial system to be involved to give the

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Speaker 1: right for law enforcement to subpoena or access DNA submitted

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Speaker 1: by choice to a company take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at Fox forty. In nineteen ninety three, around the

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Speaker 1: time of his three allanged rapes, Mantiford was a Sacramento

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Speaker 1: State student and a guest lecturer in criminal justice at

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Speaker 1: the school. His law enforcement career would span more than

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Speaker 1: two decades, working with the Federal Bureau of Prisons in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta and Miami. At one point coming under investigation for

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Speaker 1: accusations he was trying to plant evidence on an inmate.

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Speaker 1: According to court documents, the message should be clear, if

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Speaker 1: you committed a violent crime in this community and you

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Speaker 1: left your DNA, you can expect that we're going to

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Speaker 1: try to solve that crime and bringing to justice. Sacramento

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Speaker 1: County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert says it took a

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Speaker 1: collaborative effort among sheriffs and police detectives and FBI agents

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Speaker 1: to track Mantifold down like the infamous Easterea rapist case,

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Speaker 1: using DNA technology to match Mantifol's DNA left a crime

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Speaker 1: scenes with that of someone in his family. Treat with me.

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Speaker 1: Sacramento Police Chief Daniel Han. Chief Han question, did he

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Speaker 1: not leave any fingerprints at the crime saying any of

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Speaker 1: his crime scenes because I imagine his prints were taken

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Speaker 1: if he was in the system. Yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 1: these crimes they didn't leave fingerprints because they covered up

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Speaker 1: their faces and also to other things. And I would

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Speaker 1: just say this about the DNA first and foremost, Who

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want this guy off the street. Who wants this

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Speaker 1: guy still out on the street after horrific crimes that

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Speaker 1: he did in people's homes where he was there for hours.

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Speaker 1: And then secondly, DNA is such a good piece of

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Speaker 1: evidence because it's unique to the suspect, it's illegal. There

427
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: were warrants in various stages of this case. And you

428
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: leave DNA pretty much everywhere you go, so you don't

429
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: have to necessarily fingerprints, because if you wear gloves, you

430
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: don't have fingerprints, but you it's hard not to be

431
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: somewhere for hours and do the kind of crimes he

432
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: did and not leave your DNA all over that house.

433
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 1: You know, the reason he managed to outsmart everyone clearly

434
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: is because he was in law enforcement. He knew how

435
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: to cover his tracks. He knew every trick in the book.

436
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: To Emory Shebert, the Sacramento District Attorney, DA Shebert, how

437
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: did you get around the statute of limitations on murder?

438
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: There is no statute, but on rape in many jurisdictions

439
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: there is, although that tide is shifting. Yeah, so in

440
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: California back in nineteen the early nineties of statue limitations

441
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: with six years and so, you know, I think it

442
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: was probably serendipity, as I call it, when I got

443
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: a phone call from Pete will Over, who's a sack

444
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: ped detective one of the best I've ever seen, called

445
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: me late ninety nine, frustrated because he had a couple

446
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: of very horrific crimes, this one plus another one that

447
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: the guy ended up getting caught in. Coincidentally, at the

448
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: time that he called me, I had read a story

449
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: about another prosecutor in another state doing this idea of

450
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: charging an unknown person but alleging his true his DNA

451
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: as his description, and so I, myself and my colleagues

452
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: did a lot of research on it. In California law

453
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: looked at it, felt very strongly that we could do it,

454
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: and I felt like, well, there's you know, this guy,

455
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: whoever it is, needs to be held accountable, and if

456
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: we don't do this, he's going to get away with it.

457
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: So we did it on this case. We did it

458
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: on another case. The other case the guy got ended

459
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: up getting caught. This is a guy named Paul Robinson,

460
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: tried it, went all the way to cal Supreme Court

461
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: and it was upheld and that guy was sitting in

462
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 1: prison for about sixty five years now. So it was

463
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: something that we felt strongly that you know, these are

464
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: horrific crimes this particular case plus the other case, and

465
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: we felt like we wanted to do everything within our

466
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: legal toolbag to comply with that Saxon limitations. Even though

467
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: we didn't have a name, we could ultimately put a

468
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: face to that profile, that DNA profile, and that's what

469
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: we did. And in this case, it weren't take a

470
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Sea thirteen. The FBI tracked

471
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: him down at his home Indicator, Georgia, using the same

472
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: technology called genetic genealogy that led to an arrest in

473
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: the East Area rapist case last year. Without our ability

474
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: to use DNA and genetic genealogy, we would not have

475
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: this predator in custody right now, and maybe never would.

476
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: The Sacramento County District Attorney says, catching a predator like

477
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: Mark Mantefeld is about passion, patience, and persistance. You know,

478
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: I am proud to say we have put a face

479
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: to that DNA profile, and today, quarter of a century later,

480
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: a silent witness has spoken. The DA praised the ingenuity

481
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: and teamwork of detectives who had the foresight to keep

482
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: DNA test kits longer than the law allowed at the time.

483
00:28:53,920 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace serial rapist is bust thanks

484
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: to cutting edge technology, the same type that helped identify

485
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: the suspected East Area rapists last year. Today, law enforcement

486
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: announce the arrest of a former Sacramento man who had

487
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: worked in federal prisons and lectured at Sacramento State. Cbsoteens

488
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: Rachel Wolf tells us more about who he is and

489
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: how it took decades for authorities that track him down. Rachel,

490
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: the authorities here tell us that Mark Manifold lived in

491
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: this area, he went to sax State, even lectured there briefly,

492
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: as you said, But he is actually being accused of

493
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: sexually assaulting several women connected through DNA technology that didn't

494
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: even exist when those crimes were committed. Janetic genealogy has

495
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: led to dozens of arrest nationwide, including suspected Golden State

496
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: killer Joseph DeAngelo. By putting crime scene DNA profiles in

497
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: a public database like Jetmatch, authorities can identify relatives of

498
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: a suspect. The genealogists build family trees to find the

499
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: actual suspect. That's what pointed detectives in Washington State to

500
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: William Talbot. He was just found guilty of murdering a

501
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: couple in nineteen eighty seven, the first conviction by jury

502
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: tied to Janeta genealogy. This truly is a revolution in

503
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: crime fighting, and genetic genealogy is not going away now.

504
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: But it also raises privacy questions because information from innocent

505
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: people is being used without their knowledge. Last month, jed

506
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: match changed its policies so law enforcement can only search

507
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: users who give their consent. You are hearing our friends

508
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: at CBS thirteen Rachel Wolf and NBCNS Joe Friar the

509
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: debate over privacy raging. Can't agree at all with the

510
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: opponents of genealogical DNA to Sacramento District Attorney and Marie Sibert,

511
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: who is it that is opposing your use of genealogical

512
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: DNA to put violent criminals behind bars? Oh, I think

513
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: it's you know, there are individuals that are privacy advocates

514
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: that feel like law enforcement shouldn't be able to use

515
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: this tool. I mean, it's it's probably somewhat of an

516
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: anti law enforcement effort. But you know, the most important

517
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: I want to keep in mind for the listeners is

518
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: that we in Sacramento and those of us in California

519
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: have taken a very proactive effort and since the arrest

520
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: of the Golden Sekuler to get out there to educate

521
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: law enforcement and the public, but law enforcement on how

522
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: to not only do this, but to balance that privacy interest,

523
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: which you know we reckon. There is a privacy interest,

524
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 1: but as a judge said, you know, public safety far

525
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: outweighs it. But we're out there. We're not, like I

526
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: said earlier, we're not going to use this tool on

527
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: low level, non violent crimes. We're using this in a

528
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: manner that is identifying individuals for violent crimes, and we're

529
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: establishing a best practice model in California that we're pushing

530
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: not just across this country, but across this world because

531
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: we want to maintain this tool. We don't want somebody

532
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: to ban on it because they don't understand it, which

533
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: it is complex, but the most important thing to understand

534
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: is that we are proactively educating our law enforcement partners

535
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: on one how the tool works, but to make sure

536
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: that we are doing it in the appropriate cases. Can

537
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 1: I ask an answer, Listen, here's my question for all

538
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: of those individuals whose DNA is being run without their knowledge,

539
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: as they claim the right to privacy people claim, what's

540
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: the harm to them if they haven't committed the atrocious,

541
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: horrific crime that's being investigated, What is the harm. I

542
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: don't see that there's a harm to this process, dude.

543
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath

544
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott actually really brings up

545
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: a good point because if I have a distant relative

546
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: that commits a rape and murder, and somehow my DNA

547
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: is examined to finally reach the identity of that distant cousin,

548
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: I don't know about it. It doesn't affect my life.

549
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm happy they did. I have no problem with it.

550
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: The only person that has a problem with it is

551
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: the perpetrator. Joe Scott Morgan. Yeah, And I think that

552
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: the people that are going to be looking at privacy here,

553
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: they have a fear that, you know, in the long run,

554
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: what are the gatekeepers over these databases going to do

555
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: and handle the sensitive information. But I got to bring

556
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: this back all the way back to one point, Nancy.

557
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: The important thing here to remember is that all those

558
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: decades ago, we had law enforcement people that were on

559
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: the ground, that were doing their job that means that

560
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: they were able to collect DNA evidence. At that point

561
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: in time, they didn't know how far reaching DNA was

562
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: going to be. They were able to collect this physical

563
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: evidence they did. They went out and did their job

564
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: and did a good job at the scene. Remember, what

565
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: we're dealing with here is very very fragile biological evidence,

566
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: and all these years later, all these years later, it

567
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: would still remain in tact so that they could put

568
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: this guy behind bars. Two especial guest George s Giro,

569
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: DNA expert at Skills Biological Lab. George explained to me,

570
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: are these geneological websites, you know, like ancestry dot com

571
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: and all of that. How does for instance, ancestry dot

572
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: com get your DNA? Explain how it works well? And

573
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: NAS people doing geneological REA search will have their DNA

574
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: tested using certain kits and they'll take those they'll put

575
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: them into ancestry dot com and they'll look for relatives

576
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 1: to see if anyone, you know, if they can find

577
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: a distanct cousin or do family trees and that sort

578
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: of thing. Then there's also a public database called jetmatch.

579
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: And this is the number one thing I think that

580
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: I would encourage your listeners to do if they are

581
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: in jeedmatch. Jetmatch recently change their terms of service in

582
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: that they're automatically opting out everyone from law enforcement searches

583
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: of the database. What if if any of your listeners

584
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: are members of jet match, they need to make sure

585
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: if they're interested in continue to solve these crimes as

586
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: jet matches done, they need to opt in so that

587
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: law enforcement can search those profiles. And that I think

588
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: is the number one take home message that I would

589
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: have for your listeners as if you're a member of

590
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: jet match, to go ahead and opt in, because that's

591
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: going to give us a broader area to search and

592
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: to be able to find these potential killers and rapists

593
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: and get them off. Put it in a nutshell, George Cairo.

594
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: Don't people just spit into a container repeatedly and that's

595
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: how they give their DNA essentially even that or sometimes

596
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: it's by a swab, But yes, they'll just spit in,

597
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: send it in, get the results, and then, like I said,

598
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: they can, once they get those results from ancestry dot

599
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: com twenty three and me, they can then upload those

600
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: to the public database and jedmatch in order to get

601
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: their DNA profiles out there to see if they can

602
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: find any relatives, potential biological parents and those sort of things.

603
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: To Sacramento Police Chief Daniel Han, Chief Han, what did

604
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: it feel like. Do you remember the moment that you

605
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: discovered there had been a positive match and you, somehow,

606
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: after all these years, caught the rapist. Yeah. We've had

607
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: several of those over the last year and a half.

608
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: So it's a really good day when you hear your

609
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: guys go, okay, we have some leads and we're working

610
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: on them to confirmed them. So yeah, there's been a

611
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: lot and a lot of times we can do it

612
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 1: through the criminal database. But like these guys, the Golden

613
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: State killer, nor Cal rapist, and this guy, they hadn't

614
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: been arrested in half a lengthy criminal history through the court,

615
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: so they were literally hiding in plain sight, and I

616
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: don't know how we would catch him other than this.

617
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking a lot right now about a

618
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: little girl, April Tinsley, an eight year old little girl kidnapped,

619
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 1: brutally raped, murdered, her body thrown in a ditch through

620
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: genealogical DNA. Her killer an Indiana man, John D. Miller,

621
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: when he got in court, he stood up. All he

622
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: was so shaky. All they could do is say his

623
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: name to a pact court room, and his voice shook.

624
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: He was afraid of the law, he was afraid of justice.

625
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 1: But when he had that eight year old little girl,

626
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: he wasn't afraid. He killed her. Genealogical DNA may be

627
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: the only solution to put people like April Tinsley's killer

628
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: behind bars, demons like Mark Mantafell behind bars. To all

629
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: of our guests, but especially Sacramento da Amory Shubert, Sacramento

630
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: Police Chief Daniel Hahn, thank you for being with us

631
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: and please continue to fight the good fight. Nancy Grace

632
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: Crime Story signing off, goodbye friend. To find out more

633
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: about investigative genetic genealogy, good I'm in for justice dorg