WEBVTT - Why Does Fighting Exist in Hockey? 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.920 This is Leigh Habibe and this is Our American Stories, 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.920 the show where America is the star and the American people. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.239 To search for the Our American Stories podcast, go to 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:26.680 the iHeartRadio app, to iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.520 Hockey is and always has been, a sport steeped in 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.600 a culture of violence. Players have learned, however, to navigate 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.639 the escalating levels of physical contact by adhering to an 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:43.920 honor system simply known as the Code. Ross Bernstein, author 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.000 of the Code, the Unwritten Rules of Fighting and Retaliation 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.320 in the NHL, spent two years for searching this story, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.920 and he's here to share it with us. Let's think 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:02.760 a listen. I grew up in southern Minnesota, which is 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.800 not hockey country. This is wrestling in basketball country, not 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.880 like northern Minnesota where they pull the kids out of 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.360 the wombs by their skate blades, as they say. But 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.720 as a ten year old kid, I watched the Miracle 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.760 on ice and this rocked my world. I begged my 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.640 parents to please let me go to the Herb Brooks 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:21.800 hockey camp. He had a hockey camp that year for kids, 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.119 and I went. I had to go buy skates all 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.200 the stuff. I was the worst guy there. I won 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.360 the most Improved award for the guy who sucks the most. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.480 But it got me into hockey, and I wound up 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:37.240 becoming the star of the Fairmont Cardinal slash Domino's Pizza 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.919 hockey team. We were so bad our high school wouldn't 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.199 even sponsor us. We had to wear Domino's Pizza jerseys. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.600 That's how bad we were. But I got into hockey 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.400 in a big way. And I had a choice to 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.520 make as a high school senior small college football, or 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:52.200 I could be a Golden Gopher. I want to go 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.520 to the University of Minnesota. That was my dream. My 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.360 family bled more in gold I fear from Minnesota. You 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.760 know this means everything if you're not. This is like 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.400 Texas football, Indiana basketball, rugby in New Zealand and me. 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.360 We love hockey Minnesota. I got season tickets. It was incredible. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.240 And then I took this class. It was a one 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.480 credit fied course called Introduction to Ice Hockey one O one. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.280 It was the class players taught to get their scholarships, allegedly, 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.800 and I wanted becoming friends with a bunch of guys 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:21.920 in the team, and I would invite him over to 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.359 my fraternity parties that we'd hang out, and eventually they said, 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.320 you know, Ross, you're not that bad of a hockey player. 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.160 You should try out. You should walk onto the varsity. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.480 I said, you know, you're crazy, but they wanted me 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.919 to do it, and I did it, and I lasted 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.040 about ten minutes. I made it through a while, and 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:40.960 I was trying to impress the coaches one day and 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.040 I wound up taking out our star player or the 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.840 team captain, Todd Richards former going to be an NHL 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.079 player and coach, and apparently that is not the thing 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.760 you're supposed to do. So I got cut. But they 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.120 told me that I could become the team mascot, Goldie 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.080 the Gopher. So I became the mascot. I had a blast. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.520 I was entertaining drunk fans, a lot of trouble, so 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.400 much trouble that as a senior, a publisher approached me 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.080 and asked me if they could write a book about 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.760 all the trouble I had gotten into. Apparently it's not 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.840 appropriate to throw craft cheese singles at the Wisconsin hockey 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.119 players who knew cheese heads. But this got me into 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.680 hockey in a big way, and I wound up begging 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.120 my mom and dad to use my graduate school money 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.600 to write and publish my own book about the history 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.800 of Gopher hockey from Goldie the Gopher's point of view, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:29.880 and it became a cult best seller, and I got 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.320 to interview hundreds of hockey players who would tell me 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:36.600 these amazing stories and flash forward. You know, I've written 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.360 almost fifty books since then. But along the way, I 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.240 remember I was working on a hockey book and I 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:46.280 watched this this fight where where Marty McSorley and Todd 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.960 Bertuzzi had had gotten into this incident and they kept 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.960 referring to it as the Bertuzzi incident, and I didn't 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:53.600 know why it was. And I said that Bertuzzi had 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.920 broken the Code, and I fancied myself, as you know, 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.880 as a big hockey guy had written a lot of 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.720 books at this point, and I didn't know what that meant. 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.120 So I kind of went down this rabbit hole and 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.160 it launched this book called The Code about the unwritten 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.840 unspoken rules and what leads to fighting and retaliation in hockey, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.240 and it was just fascinating and I learned about these 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.880 unwritten rules like All Star wrestling like no one talked 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.120 about these things. There is no fight club. No one 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.000 talks about fight club. And I wanted the interviewing all 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.120 the players. And because I think I was a hockey guy, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.320 because I was, you know, a player at some level, 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:28.440 and I was at all the charity golf tournaments. They 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.880 trusted me and they were sharing with me, and one 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.400 would tell me a story in the next and interviewing 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.000 hundreds of players about why fighting exists. I never understood. 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.279 It's the only sport that really allows fighting to exist. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.760 And it's been that way forever, going back, you know, 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.680 years and years and years. The NHL always said they 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.720 just allowed it. They said it was originally called fisticuffs, 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.440 and they said it whereas other sports you'll get kicked out, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.320 in hockey, they give you a five minute fighting major. 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.680 It's a part of the game. It's part of the 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.560 cult the game. There's an honor code the players live 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:07.040 by where the game polices itself. This honor code says 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.160 that if you play like a jerk, you'll be treated 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.880 like a jerk. It's the golden rule. Do something dirty, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.719 hit a guy from behind, take liberties to the smaller player, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.960 run a guy do something stupid. The honor code says 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.640 you must be held accountable. That's why players really aren't 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.839 allowed to wear face masks once they become professionals, because 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.840 you have to be held accountable. There's a code. You 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.200 can't hit a guy when he's down. You can't turtle, 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.120 you can't dip your helmet as if to invite a 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.160 guy to hit your helmet and break his knuckles. I mean, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.920 there's all these rules within the rules that dictate how 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.560 you and when you can fight. It has to be 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.320 you know, both guys acknowledging at each other. You can't 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.200 jump a guy from behind the Linesmen have great liberties. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.400 The NHL has given them liberties as to how they 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.880 can mitigate and make sure that no one gets hurt, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.159 and make sure that once it's over, it's over. That 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.400 if someone doesn't want to be a willing participant, that 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.840 they won't be. But you'll see, guys, you'll see it's 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.040 when you on YouTube and see the audio when there 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.720 is a fight, you'll see that it's it's very much professional. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:21.080 You'll do okayprol good luck, lids, good luck, then let's go. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:26.039 He says, that's unbelievable. Look at him, this smile on 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.520 his face. They'll even give out like a flip flip 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.799 the thumb up, like we'll flip the lids meaning okay, 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.040 you know what, I got a broken finger, take your 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.360 helmet off. It's like a respect thing. Marty mcsolier wound 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.760 up writing one of the forwards for the book along 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.160 with Tony. Twist would have had Bob Probert, but he 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.560 wasn't around. Said that we had lost him, but send 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.159 me down another rabbit hole again of interviewing. I wrote 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.640 many books. I wrote a book with Derek Bougard. When 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.279 he's playing for the Minnesota Wild. He remembered taking boxing 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.919 lessons from this guy named Scott LaDue. Scott was a 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.200 heavyweight prize fight fought Muhammad Ali Homes so he understood 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:07.919 hockey leverage balance, but fighting body blows, how to leverage 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.280 reach and it was so these guys were very technical. 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.920 And you're listening to Ross Bernstein, author of the Code, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.440 the Unwritten Rules of Fighting and Retaliation in the NHL, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.640 who knew when we come back, more of this fascinating 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:32.040 story here on our American Stories. You're in our American Stories. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:36.000 We bring you inspiring stories of history. Sports, business, faith 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.920 and love. Stories from a great and beautiful country that 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.640 need to be told, but we can't do it without you. 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.600 Our stories are free to listen to, but they're not 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.400 free to make. If you love our stories in America 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.240 like we do, please go to our American Stories dot 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.200 com and click the donate button. Give a little, give 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.360 a lot, help us keep the great American stories coming. 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:10.280 That's our American Stories dot Com. And we continue here 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.720 on Our American Stories with Ross Bernstein and author of 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.960 the Code, the Unwritten Rules of Fighting and Retaliation in 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.320 the NHL, and where he left off in his story 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:28.080 discussing hockey enforcer Derek Booguard. Derek would go on YouTube 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.560 every day and study tendencies. The poker tells what other 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.320 guys would do is that if you know, if this 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.080 is your job and you're not very good at it, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.320 you know you're you're not gonna be around very long. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.520 And back in those days he might have thirty forty 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.160 fights a year, not like today where it's really changed. 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.960 So going back in the history I'm weaving around, I apologize, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.160 but going back in the history, you know, back in 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.000 the old Madison Square Garden, the promoters they were boxing 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.880 promoters and they would rented an ambulance and they would 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.800 drive it around Madison Square Garden with the sirens blaring, saying, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.440 the Boston Bruins are in town. It's going to be 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.480 a blood bath. There was always a story like in wrestling, 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.160 like the you'd get heat and you'd you'd build up 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.440 this bad guy persona and then everything would come to 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.520 blows and then the loser had to leave town and 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.840 he'd go to another territory. Well that's kind of how 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.000 it was, but it was real. They knew the last 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.120 time wasn't found. You know, Tiger Williams got in a 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.400 big fight and whoever, and they would dramatize it. The 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.760 newspaper reporters loved it, and you know, the fans went crazy. 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.760 If there was a fight, no one got up. They 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:30.800 wouldn't go into the bathroom. They weren't buying a hot dog. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.880 They wanted to see it. And really, what's fascinating is 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.560 is it It was a way to create momentum. You know, 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.960 it's hard in sports to create momentum. As a speaker, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.040 I talk about momentum and how businesses can create momentum. 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.080 But in hockey, if your team's down to it and nothing, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.160 and a coach taps a guy in the back, or 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:49.720 gives him a wink, or just gives him a look. 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.080 He knows to go out there and take on the 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.160 other guy's heavy weight, and if he wins, you know, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:56.720 the guys are going to bang their sticks in the 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.439 boards and that's momentum. The crowd goes wild, or you 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.000 silence the other team's crowd. Either way, it creates momentium 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.840 and the players feed on that energy. It literally creates 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.800 a home field advantage, and it's remarkable. They'll rally, they'll 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.120 come back from two to nothing, then they'll win three 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.160 to two, and you can credit that that fighter, that 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.880 fourth line guy, in making the league minimum. You know, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.680 there's a really interesting story that I thought was brought 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:22.920 to light in my book by Howard Bloom that I 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.400 think really explains a lot. Jack Jackson with a couple 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:31.400 of good left hands. Why is intimidation effectively changing the 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.760 whole pace of a game? Because one somebody on your 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.120 team gets hurt, that becomes a real preoccupation. Either makes 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.840 you feel like a victim or makes you feel like 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:46.040 it's time for revenge. The adrenaline level goes up, it 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.760 changes the very hormonal sea on which hockey has played. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.240 Hockey's not just played on ice, Hockey's played on hormones. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.760 How that game goes is going to determine whether for 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:05.960 the next week or month they are winners or hormonally 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:12.280 and biologically they are losers. Without him doing that role, 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.560 they don't win. So it's really remarkable. So they're the 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.240 most respected players on the team. When I was getting 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.319 to know Derek Bougard when he was in the Minnesota Wild, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.560 you know, they sold more Boogard jerseys than anyone else's 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:26.319 jerseys because those guys are and they're teddy bears. They've 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.720 all got that Jackal and Hyde persona. They're all the 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.240 nicest guys off the ice, but on the ice their animals. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.120 Their job is to inflict pain and it's never personal, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.400 you know. Tony Twist said that he had knocked out 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.400 the forefront teeth of the best man in his wedding. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.480 It wasn't personal. It's just business, you know. That's what 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.520 they gotta do. And it's hard because you know, those 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.079 guys as they get older. Marty McSorley, we'd we'd get together, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.000 you know, he could his hands barely worked because there's 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.440 so many you know, they're just they were so much 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.040 inflammation and arthritic. And you know, he'd say, you know, 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.280 during training camp, they dreaded it because you'd have to 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.160 play with what they would call the football players. And 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.120 those are the guys who were the tough kids from 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.760 medicine hat moose jaw monkedin. They knew they were never 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:09.319 gonna make the team, so they gave him like their 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.920 jersey numbers were like number seventy five. They were the 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.679 football players. So these guys would come in and they 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.840 would you know, you want to be the man, you 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.160 gotta beat the man's They would say, very cordially, you know, 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.720 mister mc sorley, i'm trying to make the team or 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:23.920 you know, the minor league team. Could I please have 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:25.960 a fight with you, sir. It's like, all right, you 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.040 know what, kids, you're you're you're you're okay. You know, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.440 well we'll do it tomorrow. You know, at the end 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.080 of the game. I'm okay, but I got a sore 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.839 shoulders that don't don't don't come at me from this side, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.840 and we're gonna flip the lids because I gotta you know, 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.760 and it's just amazing how it was very much just business, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:46.120 it wasn't personal. And Tony Tony Twist described this. It 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.840 was fascinating. He described going to work every day like 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.920 like I thought something that every guy could relate to. 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.440 He said, it was like being in eighth grade junior 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.600 high and the biggest bully in the school called you 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.800 out and they challenge you to a fight, and they 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.400 told everyone so in that bell ring at three o'clock, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.200 man at three or five, you had to be there. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.480 And that stress of knowing that you had to fight 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.600 this guy at the end of the day. And every 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.600 guy's been there right then, may have been in a 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.320 fight in your life. You've been there, and you know 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.720 what that's like. And they had to do that every day, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:19.720 and they know that if you were going to Chicago, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.839 he had to fight Proby and and the last time 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.600 he fought probably he cut him. So now probably's angry 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.600 and he embarrassed him. So now he's coming. He knows 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.120 he's coming for you, and he knows during pregame warm 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.880 ups it's coming like first period maybe first shift, right, 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.040 and you're gonna get it out of the way. And 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:38.120 then and then there might be a rematch. Here's Bob Probert. Yes, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.400 at a certain point in my career, you know, I 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.320 had a reputation as being one of the tougher guys 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.760 in the league. So he either had players that would 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.120 would come after you and try to make a name 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.200 for themselves or would stay away. So you had a 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.080 little bit of both. You know, it was a job 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.640 that that was. It wasn't easy. You know, you didn't 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.640 have to you know, if you're a goalscorer, you just 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.880 have to worry about going out there and keeping your 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.800 stats up, going out and trying to score a goal. Right, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.160 a fighter, there's a lot more too it. You got 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.440 you're thinking. You're constantly thinking, okay, well who are we 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.040 playing tomorrow? Who are we playing next week? Okay, next week, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.840 I'm gonna have to fight this guy. Um, you're always 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.200 you're thinking that. It takes a lot, a lot, It 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.040 takes a saw on. Yeah, And then they got to 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.080 get up, right, so they're chicken in feed of me 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:19.560 pain killers because they gotta get up with this. But 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.800 then afterwards they got to come down because they got 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:23.480 they want to read stories to their kids to go 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.200 to bed, and they got to do it all again 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.440 the next day. So it's this cycle. So so many 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.800 of these guys get addicted to painkillers and it's tragic, 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.480 but a lot of these guys that's their ticket. And 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.840 it was fascinating. A lot of guys I met, they were, 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.880 you know, four year college guys. These are smart guys. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.880 It wasn't like it was hockey or else. A lot 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:43.600 of these guys, like Bougard, they left home and they 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.040 were thirteen to go live with the Billet family in Saskatchewan. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.200 And that's your job. Like, if you don't make it, 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.280 there's nothing else. You're going to the back, to the 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.440 farm or the salt mine or whatever it is. So 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:54.600 go out of college. Guys said, you know what, I'll 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.640 take that role. The bottom line is you got to 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.160 protect your skill players. And if other teams know they 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.520 can take liberties with the skill players, they're going to 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.800 come after him. I remember one of my a real 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.600 good friend of mine, Neil Sheehy, who played about ten 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.040 years for Calgary. And this is a smart guy. This 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.560 guy went to Harvard Law School. He's an agent today 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.360 for some of the best players in the league. But 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.160 he learned that it's chess. He said, you know what, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.720 if I can go punch Gretzky and McSorley or Samenko 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.040 will come beat the crap out of me, my team 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.480 will gladly exchange me for Gretzky. So he'd do that 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.760 all day, every day, and they figured out that ultimately 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.520 became the Instigator rule that they literally they named kind 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.120 of after him because he figured out an arbitrage a 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.280 gray area where you could, you know, if you can 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.720 get Gretzky to fight, will gladly take him off the 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:42.840 ice because we got a chance to beat you. So 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.160 it was really interesting learning about the history, the culture, 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.200 the honor of sticking up for your teammates. It's the 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.880 toughest role in sports, in any sport bar none. The 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.320 fact if these guys typically don't fight their own fights, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.480 they're fighting for someone else. Someone takes out your star 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.000 player knowing that they're going to have to go out 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.760 with two minutes in the game, when they could just 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.160 go home and go to bed, but now they're going 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.000 to go have to get stitched up. I remember interviewing 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.760 the old team doctor for the Montreal Canadian Ends. He said, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.120 if you a lot of times the team doctor, if 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.600 they were traveling. They wouldn't pay him in money, they 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.600 didn't have money. They'd pay him in booze. So you 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.080 hope if you got caught it was like in the 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.600 first period, because by the third period you were getting 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.760 those Frankenstein stitches, like you know, cut six inches might 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:27.120 came back yet four zippers. Right. So it's a fascinating 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.800 look into a really unique part of what I think 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.200 is the greatest sport in the world. I love it. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.720 I know you love it, Greg, something we both played 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.280 it very passionate about. And you're listening to Ross Bernstein, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.840 author of the Code, the Unwritten Rules of Fighting and 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.640 Retaliation in the NHL, and as a hockey fan who 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.840 spent many a night at Madison Square Garden watching the 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:55.080 Philadelphia Flyers brawl with the New York Rangers bullies. Now 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.240 I understand they weren't bullies. They were protectors. The history, 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.560 the culture, the honor of sticking up for your teammates, 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.280 your star players is fundamental to the game. That's what 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.560 we just heard from Ross Bernstein. Hockey is not just 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:16.080 played on ice. Hockey is played on hormone. When we 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.359 come back, more of these insights and so much more, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.359 and by the way America's passion for sports is unrivaled 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.640 and the world's passion for sports is unrivaled. But there's 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.919 something about going to an NHL game where all you 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.840 see a different kind of passion than almost any other sport. 0:17:33.240 --> 0:18:08.119 More with Ross Bernstein here on our American stories, and 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.840 we continue with our American stories and Ross Bernstein, author 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.600 of the Code, the Unwritten Rules of Fighting and Retaliation 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.840 in the NHL. Let's pick up where we last left off. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.479 I think one of the things that really changed in 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.040 hockey came at the advent of the early seventies when 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:38.480 the Philadelphia Flyers under Freddie Shirow really changed the rules. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.680 They were tired of getting beat up by the big 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.360 bad Bruins. They just couldn't make any headway. So they decided, 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.919 Freddie Shirow and decided they were going to put a 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.920 fighter on every line Schulte and Moose DuPont, and they 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.720 basically created an arms race. It became legendary. Players would 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.119 always say they the bus would start shaking when they 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.800 would go over the Whitman Bridge because the guys were nervous, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.040 because they knew didn't matter if you were on a 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:05.880 fourth line or not. You were gonna have to fight. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.080 They would take on anybody and everybody, and they intimidated 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.480 you and guys would get what they called the Philly flu. 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.000 They'd say to the coach, oh, coach, I don't feel 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.680 good that I yeah, yeah, right, because you don't want 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.800 to lose any teeth. But they found this system through 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.080 fear and intimidation to win, and it was brilliant. It's 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.240 no different than Belichick creating his system. Great coaches figure 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.760 out ways to win, and he worked within the rule book. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:31.920 They eventually changed the rules because of him, but during 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.280 the time they were able to win two Stanley Cups. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.000 Since you're saying I wrote another book, was the guy 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.600 named Glenn SayMore. Blenn was a legendary coach. He coached 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.120 the Minnesota north Stars, and the north Stars had never 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.840 beaten the Boston Bruins. They called it the Curse of 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.159 the Garden. The north Stars had entered the league in 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.800 nineteen sixty seven as an expansion team, and all those years, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.280 the thirteen fourteen seasons, they'd never beaten the Bruins. The 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:00.399 Bruins came to Minnesota, they were crushing them and Bruin's 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.679 tough guy John Wensink came out and he challenged the 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.720 entire north Star bench to a fight, and that one 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.399 guy answered the bell and it killed Glenn. Glenn, it 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.960 killed him, and that all season he said, I don't 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.240 care if we win one game all year. We're gonna 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.160 face the Bruins. We're gonna beat the Bruins. We're gonna 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.280 fight the Bruins. So they go to Boston the next 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.520 season and Glenn tells the guys, he says, not the 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.359 third time, not the second time, but the first time. 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.000 These guys trying to intimidate us. We go to war. 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:33.240 So opening faceoff, Bobby Smith star the north Stars. He 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.359 just won the Lady bing A Trophy, which is emblematic 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.240 of the league's most gentleman player. Like Bobby never got penalties, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.919 he never fought before. But opening faceoff, one of their 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.600 guys came up and he brought his stick straight up 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.120 on the opening face off and cut Bobby's chin wide open, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.520 and he's bleeding like a pig. And Bobby looks over 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.560 at Glenn, and Glenn looks at him, but fits up 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.960 his fists and Bobby drops the mills and it's on. 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:59.719 And this was a blood bath. It still stands as 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.480 a record most penalty minutes. Ever, it was like four 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.680