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Speaker 1: Hey, Jorge, do you ever feel bad when you eat

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Speaker 1: the fruit? Uh? Not if it's delicious. Well, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to get into it with you right now about

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Speaker 1: the banana controversy, but don't you ever think that you're

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Speaker 1: like eating part of a living organism? Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: a plant. Plants don't mind, do they. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Have you asked the plant, have you talked to the plant?

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Speaker 1: If you talked to the plants parents, you know. I

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Speaker 1: think the day I talked to banana is the day

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Speaker 1: that I have gone bananas. I'm just saying, there's all

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Speaker 1: kinds of life out there, so it's good to be

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Speaker 1: open minded about what might or might not have feelings.

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Speaker 1: I am more hanmac Organ isn't the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle, a physicist, and I'm an

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Speaker 1: advocate for the rights of bananas, but not any other fruit. Daniel,

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Speaker 1: like apples, eat them. No, bananas are the tip of

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Speaker 1: the spear, and once we win that battle, we will

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Speaker 1: extend those rights to other fruits. What are we gonna eat, Daniel?

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Speaker 1: Where are we going to get our protasis? We're gonna

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Speaker 1: learn to photosynthesize Eventually we'll just all become biological solar panels. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're a physicist, because your biology is

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Speaker 1: a little off. That is not a biology part. I

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Speaker 1: just need some biologists and some engineers, and then I

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Speaker 1: can start a startup, you know, to make that real.

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Speaker 1: Then you need a business person and it's just and

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Speaker 1: some investors. But welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: explain the university production of our Heart Radio in which

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Speaker 1: we explore all the amazing and crazy things about the universe.

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Speaker 1: We bring you to the forefront of scientific knowledge and

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Speaker 1: scientific inquiry and scientific ignorance to show you what scientists

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Speaker 1: do know and what scientists are scratching their heads about.

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Speaker 1: To show you all the mystery and wonder of the

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Speaker 1: universe and explain it to you in a way that

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Speaker 1: hopefully makes you chuckle. Yea, all the stuff that's making

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Speaker 1: scientists confused and curious, but also all the things that

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Speaker 1: make scientists cratch their chins and go hmmmm, I wonder.

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Speaker 1: And one thing we love to do is think about

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Speaker 1: the way the universe works as we see it, and

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Speaker 1: wonder if there are other ways the universe could work?

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Speaker 1: Are there other kinds of planets out there. Could life

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Speaker 1: be different on those planets, could be dramatically weirdly different.

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Speaker 1: And because there are people out there who actually do

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Speaker 1: this for a living, and not just because they have

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Speaker 1: tenure and they can do whatever they want? Was that

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Speaker 1: a dig? I felt like that was a dig? What

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Speaker 1: do you mean? I did wait till I had ten

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Speaker 1: ure to propose my photosynthesis biostarter to the NSF or

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Speaker 1: to you. To you, I just proposed it to you

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Speaker 1: right now to go fund me for that one. That's

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Speaker 1: my new Kickstarter. No, but there are people out there

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Speaker 1: whose job it is to be creative and to push

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Speaker 1: the boundaries. And it's not just scientists thinking about how

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Speaker 1: the universe is and how the universe might be. It's

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Speaker 1: also artists and writers, and specifically science fiction authors. So

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Speaker 1: today on the program, we'll be talking about another science

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Speaker 1: wicking novel that is out there that is has some

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting ideas, and it's another episode in our series

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Speaker 1: of interviews with science fiction authors where we talked to

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Speaker 1: them about their book, their ideas, and how they came

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Speaker 1: up with it. And I'm especially fascinated with how they

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Speaker 1: built their science fiction universe. A lot of these science

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Speaker 1: fiction novels are fun because the game is to figure

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Speaker 1: out what are the rules in that universe, how do

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Speaker 1: they work? What are the laws of physics, and what

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Speaker 1: are the fascinating consequences. And that's the same game we're

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Speaker 1: playing in this universe. So it's fun to sometimes shift

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Speaker 1: field and work in another universe. I mean, we're playing

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Speaker 1: a game with God or whoever made this universe, Daniel

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Speaker 1: to see who's parter. I don't know who's set up

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Speaker 1: the puzzle, but it is a fascinating puzzle, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like we're in a huge detective mystery. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what the rules are. We'd be given

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Speaker 1: a few clues, and that's what science is all about.

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Speaker 1: That's why it's so much fun, because occasionally you do

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Speaker 1: learn something fascinating, to have a fly flash of insight

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Speaker 1: and the universe reveals something deep to you. Most physicists

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Speaker 1: just are like criticy, Right, we don't drink as much tea,

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Speaker 1: but essentially, yes, we are trying to solve a big murder. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So today we're talking with a pretty interesting author who

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Speaker 1: wrote a book that sort of takes a look at

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Speaker 1: intelligent life in a totally new way. Yeah, A lot

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Speaker 1: of listeners right in and wonder what could alien life

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Speaker 1: be like on another planet? Could you have other weird

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Speaker 1: forms of intelligence that it's hard to imagine? And so

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Speaker 1: this one particular writer took on that question very specifically

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Speaker 1: and wondered about different surprising forms of alien intelligence. I

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Speaker 1: like the tagline of her book, it's sentience takes many forms, tantalizing.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I always wondered what intelligence life looks like,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I'm still waiting to We never met

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Speaker 1: any waiting to me except for our listeners, right, and

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Speaker 1: the smartest people on the point, we've never met them technically,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've only met you, Daniel, and well we

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Speaker 1: met some of them on the live stream, right, that's right. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So today on the podcast, we'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about sci fi universe of Sue Bergs. Semiosis. All right, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: this is a new word for me, semiosis. Break it

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Speaker 1: down for me. What does semiosis means. That's the title

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Speaker 1: of her books. It's the title of her book, and

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Speaker 1: it reveals something about her background. She's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a linguist. In her day job, she does translations, so

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Speaker 1: she's fairly well known in that community for doing translations

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Speaker 1: of like old Spanish texts, like she won an award

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Speaker 1: for a translation of a Spanish text from the sixteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds that was the first analysis of stock markets ever written.

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Speaker 1: And so she's like a real technical grasp of Spanish

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Speaker 1: and English and understanding of linguistics. And I think that

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Speaker 1: motivates the title of the book, semiosis, which is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a technical word in linguistics and reflects like

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Speaker 1: how to communicate through signs, like you take a you know,

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Speaker 1: how to interpret sign language or how to use you know,

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Speaker 1: signs like road signs to communicate meaning. And so it's

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Speaker 1: all about how intelligent creatures communicate to each other. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's related to semiotics. I think I've heard

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Speaker 1: that word before. It's not related to osmosis or mitosis

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Speaker 1: or meiosis or full on moses semiosis. I'm a big

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Speaker 1: fan of little osis miniosis. But that's pretty cool. I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know they had awards in the translation world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: does that mean you haven't won any not yet? No,

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Speaker 1: apparently they don't give him for translating physics human language

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Speaker 1: from math to English. And I'm waiting for that. I

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Speaker 1: wonder what the awards are called? Is it the excuse me?

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Speaker 1: This was the Alicia Gordon Award for Word Artistry. Pretty cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive. And so I had the great pleasure

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Speaker 1: to read her book Semiosis, which came out very recently.

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Speaker 1: It was also nominated for some awards in the science

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Speaker 1: fiction world. But it's her first science fiction novel. Pretty cool,

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Speaker 1: and so you got to talk to her, Daniel, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty cool. And so later on will play the interview,

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Speaker 1: but first we'll talk a little bit about the book

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Speaker 1: and the science in it and see how it holds

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Speaker 1: up to the reading of a physicist. So Daniel break

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Speaker 1: it down for us. What is the basic idea of

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Speaker 1: the book? Well, the book is really fun because it

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Speaker 1: starts out as humans are exploring the galaxy. They're leaving

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Speaker 1: Earth and trying to find other planets to live on,

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Speaker 1: and so you immediately are on a colony ship and

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Speaker 1: you're landing very rapidly on a new planet, and there's

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Speaker 1: this joy of exploration where you're like, what is this

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Speaker 1: new planet like? And they very rapidly discover that this

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Speaker 1: new planet has life on it, and it has life

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Speaker 1: that sort of seems similar to Earth at first, like

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Speaker 1: there are plant like structures and their animal like structures,

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Speaker 1: but they soon come to learn that these plant like

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Speaker 1: structures are pretty different from earthbound plants in one very

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Speaker 1: important way. Okay, so I guess I have a question already,

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Speaker 1: which is when they go down to these planets, do

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Speaker 1: they have to wear space suits? Where is it like

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Speaker 1: Star Trek where they can just automatically breathe the air

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Speaker 1: in those planets. They have been selective about the planets

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Speaker 1: they visit, and they have like the ability to scan

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Speaker 1: these things as far in advance so they can guess

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Speaker 1: what the atmosphere is like. So on this planet they

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Speaker 1: can walk around without space suits. I mean they're looking

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Speaker 1: to establish colonies, you know, permanent colonies. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to be living under bubbles or in space suits. So

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Speaker 1: they specifically went to planets that had non toxic atmospheres, right,

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Speaker 1: And so what's the real science behind that? Is that

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Speaker 1: likely that there are planets that we can where we

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Speaker 1: can breathe the air. It's fascinating. Actually, we're just on

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Speaker 1: the cusp of the ability to study exoplanet atmospheres. It's

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Speaker 1: an amazing field and we think that it's likely that

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Speaker 1: there are exoplanets and that they have atmospheres, and some

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Speaker 1: of them have water, vapor and carbon dioxide and stuff

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Speaker 1: like this. But it's very difficult to get significant amounts

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Speaker 1: of oxygen in those atmospheres without some form of life,

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Speaker 1: without microbes for like a billion years pumping out oxygen.

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Speaker 1: And so it's actually very scientifically accurate that if you

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Speaker 1: find a planet that has oxygen, it probably already has

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Speaker 1: microbes on it. Interesting, but I guess I always wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: what's the probability that will find a planet with an

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Speaker 1: atmosphere with the exact same composition, you know, of the

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Speaker 1: gases that humans need to breathe comfortably, Because isn't it

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Speaker 1: isn't it a very fine balance, Like like, at the

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Speaker 1: oxygen level in our atmosphere drop by a certain percentage,

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Speaker 1: we we would all die, Or if the dioxide level

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Speaker 1: went up by a certain bit, we would all die.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it really hard? It's not that though. It's not

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Speaker 1: that hard. I mean, you can most of the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: is nitrogen, and that's pretty much a nerve to us.

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Speaker 1: So you could replace that with a lot of different

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff. But you're right, there are bounds if

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Speaker 1: the oxygen level dropped too far and then we couldn't

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Speaker 1: breathe the air. We can tolerate a range of oxygen,

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Speaker 1: but not a huge range. I mean, Earth has a

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Speaker 1: like twenty one percent oxygen, and if it dropped into

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Speaker 1: the teens you feel pretty sluggish, and if it dropped

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Speaker 1: into the single digits, well then you die. And if

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Speaker 1: the carbon dioxide level was too high, it would be

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Speaker 1: toxic for humans. But there are certainly are bounds there.

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Speaker 1: But we don't know very much about the distribution of

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Speaker 1: atmospheres on exoplanets. Were like at the very beginning of that,

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Speaker 1: So it's a fair question, But it's also totally not

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Speaker 1: implausible to find an exo planet with non toxic atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: What we don't know is if there are any exoplanets

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Speaker 1: out there with microbes producing oxygen for us to breathe.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge unanswered question because because oxygen doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: naturally in planets, you need something to to break out

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Speaker 1: break it out. Well, Oxygen is around in the universe,

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Speaker 1: but it's not nearly as abundant as hydrogen. It's there,

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Speaker 1: but without microbes it's all bound up like in carbon

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Speaker 1: dioxide and stuff, So what you need for breathing is

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Speaker 1: oxygen by itself. That's just o too. I see, I

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Speaker 1: guess there are maybe there are a lot of planets

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Speaker 1: out there, and so it's technically possible to find some

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Speaker 1: that I would have the same exact atmosphere is our Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the microbes are sort of sticking point there all right,

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Speaker 1: So not implausible. So that's good enough here, not implausible.

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Speaker 1: And so the plot is they go to a planet

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Speaker 1: and it has an interesting new kind of intelligent life, yes,

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Speaker 1: and that new intelligent life is not an animal. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are animals on this planet. They are like weird

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Speaker 1: birds and weird ground creatures and predators and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of stuff that seem that's smart though, But the most

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Speaker 1: intelligent creature on this planet is a plant. It's one plant. Well,

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Speaker 1: there are actually a variety of plants with varying intelligence,

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Speaker 1: but there's one specific kind of bamboo, a grove of bamboo,

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Speaker 1: like an extended grove of bamboo, which turns out to

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Speaker 1: be very intelligent. So it's like a complex organism. So

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Speaker 1: it's not is it one organism is like one bamboo

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Speaker 1: or like a a bunch of different bamboos that talk

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Speaker 1: to each other. Well, it's both. There are different groves

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Speaker 1: of bamboo. Each one is its own individual, and so

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Speaker 1: it's not like one bamboo plant, one shoot is its

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Speaker 1: own individual. It's like a whole grove communicate. They have

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Speaker 1: like tangled roots, the way aspen do here on earth.

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Speaker 1: You can think of them as one individual. But then

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Speaker 1: you know, one grove over here has one name, and

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Speaker 1: then another grove on another hillside might have another one,

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Speaker 1: and so and so there's same. Like yes, they actually

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Speaker 1: have a consciousness like they think. They think they plan.

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Speaker 1: They communicate. They talk to each other using pollen for example.

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Speaker 1: They can, you know, send those signals to the groves

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Speaker 1: or they are ascensioned. They talk to each other. They

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Speaker 1: send little pollen messages to each other. They have points

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Speaker 1: of view, they have personalities. Parts of the book take

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Speaker 1: place from the point of view of this bamboo growth.

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Speaker 1: It's the first person narrator for part of the book.

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Speaker 1: They speak English. They do learn to communicate with humans.

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Speaker 1: How do they write or speak to us? You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it develops slowly. First, the plant on one of

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Speaker 1: its stems learns to control the coloring of the stem,

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Speaker 1: and so we can form words on the stem of

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Speaker 1: the plant so that people can like look at it

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Speaker 1: like a screen. What And it develops all these new

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Speaker 1: abilities to like hear what people are saying or to

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Speaker 1: smell them. You can control its development in this amazing way.

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Speaker 1: Has a real grasp of like the biochemistry of what's

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Speaker 1: going on inside it, so we can do its own

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Speaker 1: biological engineering. Like genetically, it can change itself. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's genetically didn't get down to that level

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Speaker 1: of detail, but it has a lot of control over

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Speaker 1: how it wants to grow and what capabilities it wants

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Speaker 1: to produce. And it's highly intelligent. And it's fascinating because

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Speaker 1: the relationship between the plants and the animals on this

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Speaker 1: planet is sort of inverted. Like the plants are kind

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Speaker 1: of in charge and they train the animals. They were

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Speaker 1: like produce a fruit the animals want. If the animals

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Speaker 1: do what the plants need them to do, like disperse

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Speaker 1: their seeds or protect them from from aggression from other

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Speaker 1: plants and stuff, they grow these fruits pretty quickly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so when they when the humans land on this planet,

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Speaker 1: they unbeknownst to them land right in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a great war between two plants, and they end up

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Speaker 1: eating the fruits from one plant and eating the fruits

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Speaker 1: from another plant, and that this one produces poisonous fruits

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Speaker 1: and this one doesn't. And so they slowly figure out

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Speaker 1: that there's something complicated going on here, and they learn

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Speaker 1: to interact with the plane. It's like landing in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a flame war on Twitter or something like

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Speaker 1: what's going on? I don't I don't understand. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: the plants on the planet are bewildered. You know, when

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Speaker 1: these humans show up, the plants wonder like where are

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Speaker 1: their plants? You know, you can't just have the animals

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Speaker 1: wandering around with that without plants. It's like you kids

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Speaker 1: out in the street without their parents or something, because

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Speaker 1: on that planet, the plants are in charge. Well it

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Speaker 1: sounds pretty interesting, but but I guess, and my question

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Speaker 1: is what happens in the book, Like the humans land

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Speaker 1: and then what happens they just the whole book is

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Speaker 1: used sort of an exploration of this organism or is

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Speaker 1: there is there some drama going on? No, there's some drama.

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Speaker 1: Turns out that this planet, while it has a good atmosphere,

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Speaker 1: is a real challenging planet for humans to live on

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Speaker 1: because there's almost no iron available on the surface. You know,

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Speaker 1: we need iron for our blood, we need iron for

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Speaker 1: lots of things in our body, and also iron is

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Speaker 1: pretty important for our technology. But on this planet, the

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Speaker 1: way the tectonics happened and the way iron settled, or

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Speaker 1: the amount of iron that was available when the planet formed,

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Speaker 1: means that there's almost no iron available on the surface.

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Speaker 1: The only iron you get is from like the occasional meteorite,

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Speaker 1: and so it's a real challenge. And when the humans land,

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Speaker 1: they initially struggle, well they struggle for lots of reasons,

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Speaker 1: this is just one of them. And what they learned

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Speaker 1: to do is learn how to survive on this planet

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Speaker 1: essentially by forming a relationship with these intelligent plants. You know.

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Speaker 1: First humans show up and they want to be in charge,

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Speaker 1: and they want to establish their own colony and be independent.

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Speaker 1: But eventually they learned that if they want to survive,

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Speaker 1: they have to build a relationship with these plants. They

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Speaker 1: have to learn to work together, all right. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's more sort of like a colonization novel. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: except that the you know, the colonized waves. Yeah. In

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Speaker 1: this case, though, the natives win because by the end

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Speaker 1: of the novel, the humans essentially give up and put

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Speaker 1: the plants in charge. Really at the end, they think

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Speaker 1: the plans are more intelligent than them. Yeah, the plants

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Speaker 1: are better at making decisions that long term planning. They

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Speaker 1: have a better grasp of the details that those humans

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Speaker 1: also elect the carrot as president. I feel like you're

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Speaker 1: inviting me to compare politicians to fruits here, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna avoid being political and just say that they all

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Speaker 1: seem in bananas to me. All right, Well, let's get

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Speaker 1: into the science a little bit more and whether or

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Speaker 1: not it's plausible for me physics point of view to

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Speaker 1: have a planet like this or a plant that's intelligent

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Speaker 1: from a biology point of view, and then we'll get

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Speaker 1: into the interview with super But first let's take a

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Speaker 1: quick break. All right, we're talking about the sci fi

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Speaker 1: universe of superb novel semios Is, and in it, plants

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Speaker 1: are intelligent. So is that, Daniel, Is that even plausible?

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Speaker 1: I guess, you know, like I wonder, like, if you

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Speaker 1: look at a neuron, you wouldn't think a neuron is intelligent.

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Speaker 1: But if you get a whole bunch of them, a

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Speaker 1: few billion, then you get a human brain. So is

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Speaker 1: it is this kind of what's going on here with

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Speaker 1: the plants, Like if you get enough simple plants, you

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Speaker 1: might get some sort of complex consciousness out of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's a really hard question because we don't really

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Speaker 1: understand the rise of intelligence or what's critical about it,

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Speaker 1: or consciousness or all this stuff. So of course I

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Speaker 1: turned to my local expert. My wife is biologist, and

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Speaker 1: I asked her, Hey, do you think plants could ever

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Speaker 1: be intelligent? I didn't tell her the context or anything.

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Speaker 1: So she first said that's ridiculous, absolutely not. Why did

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Speaker 1: she say that, Well, this a whole history of studying

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Speaker 1: plants here on Earth where people try to understand like

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Speaker 1: do earth plants feel pain? Do they have responses? Do

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Speaker 1: they have any sort of nervous system at all? And

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Speaker 1: there were some labs about ten fifteen years ago they

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Speaker 1: claimed that they had evidence that plants could feel things

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Speaker 1: and respond, maybe even feel pain. And Uh, it's a

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Speaker 1: complicated question because plants do have sophisticated reactions to stimuli. Right.

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Speaker 1: There are plants that if you touch them, they will

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Speaker 1: close up or venus fly chapel, like you know, eat

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Speaker 1: an animal. They drive right like they seek out the

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Speaker 1: sun and the water, and if they if you cut them,

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Speaker 1: they actually have some sort of like emergency reaction to

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Speaker 1: being cut. Yeah, And so I called up another friend

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Speaker 1: of mine who was actually a neuroscientist. Here, like my

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Speaker 1: wife didn't have a satisfying as somebody else. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's a microbiologist. So I called an actual

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Speaker 1: neuroscientist who works on displa like fruit flies and how

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Speaker 1: their minds work. And she said that, you know, plants

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Speaker 1: don't have a central nervous system the way we understand it,

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Speaker 1: but they do have these kind of mechanical reactions. You know,

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Speaker 1: they do respond to stimuli. And so it's really best

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Speaker 1: to think of plants sort of like on a continuum.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy to say, like there's a clear distinction

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Speaker 1: between how plants work and how animals work all the

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Speaker 1: way up to humans. It's sort of you can place

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Speaker 1: them on a continuum. An individual plant, I think, is

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. You can maybe think of him as

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Speaker 1: is intelligent, but not that intelligent. But I think maybe

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Speaker 1: what she's getting to in this novel is like, if

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Speaker 1: you get enough simple plants, maybe you could get consciousness

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Speaker 1: out of here. Yeah, and you also only need to

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Speaker 1: take another step, which is maybe these plants are not

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Speaker 1: just like Earth plants. They have nervous systems. There's no

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Speaker 1: reason why on another planet plant like organisms couldn't develop

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Speaker 1: something akin to a nervous system and even maybe a brain.

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Speaker 1: And in her novel she has sort of nervous systems

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Speaker 1: inside the plant roots. That's where their intelligence resides on

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Speaker 1: her planet, I see, But don't these plant organisms think

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Speaker 1: really slowly? Or do they think at the speed of

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Speaker 1: That's what I was wondering, because I feel like all

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Speaker 1: really intelligent life has brains, and I wonder if that's

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Speaker 1: because of you know, you want to bring all your

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Speaker 1: neurons close together so that you can have things happen quickly.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to wait for the delay as signals

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Speaker 1: transmit from like one side of the hill to the

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Speaker 1: other side of the hill. Right, that would be a

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Speaker 1: slow thought. There, that would be a slower thought. And

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Speaker 1: so in this case, it's sort of like a distributed intelligence.

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Speaker 1: Each plant is intelligent in its route, and then together

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Speaker 1: they form a personality. In the novel, though, the plants

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Speaker 1: are pretty responsive, so you know, sometimes it takes some

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Speaker 1: time to think, but you can have a conversation back

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Speaker 1: and forth with these plants really well. I guess if

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Speaker 1: you have enough of them, maybe you know, it's fast

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Speaker 1: that way because there's so many plants. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we do the same thing with our computing, right we

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Speaker 1: have big clusters of computers to answer questions, and you

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Speaker 1: have part of it that's responsive to the user and

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Speaker 1: other parts of it that are off thinking about deep stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, to provide information later on. And these computer

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Speaker 1: systems are very responsive of the hive mind, you know,

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Speaker 1: like if you have a question, just ask the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I not sure the Internet is intelligence, but but yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are examples of you know, starlings or insects that

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Speaker 1: act sort as one organism. And then I was amazed

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Speaker 1: that neuroscientist friend of mine pointed out that there are

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Speaker 1: other organisms here on Earth that have nerves and sort

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Speaker 1: of mental states, but no brain. There's this organism called

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Speaker 1: the hydra which has like a nerve net, so there's

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Speaker 1: no core brain. It's not like all the nerves are

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Speaker 1: clustered together. They're sort of distributed through the body, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it has a nervous system, it has mental states.

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Speaker 1: It's very simple, but there's an example of sort of

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Speaker 1: distributed brain that can actually have some intelligence. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a concentrated processing it's just it's just kind of

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Speaker 1: is as a like a human without a conscious brain. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Or it's like if your brain was spread out through

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Speaker 1: your body instead of concentrated in your skull. That would

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Speaker 1: be a massive headache if you all right, Well, there's

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Speaker 1: I know, piece of signs here in this book about

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Speaker 1: low iron in the planet. Like it's a planet that

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Speaker 1: is very little iron, and I'm just wondering if that's possible,

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Speaker 1: because you know, are most planets sort of made of

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Speaker 1: rocky iron types of metals. Yeah, it's hard to assemble

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Speaker 1: a planet without some heavy metal at the core. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's what really seeds the gravitational attraction is a creation

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Speaker 1: of stuff. Remember, solar systems start, you have a blobs

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Speaker 1: of gas and dust and rock, and the heavy stuff

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Speaker 1: starts to gather together. And that's why most of these

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Speaker 1: planets have a heavy core. Even things like Jupiter right

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00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: has some ice and rock at its core, and that's

428
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: sort of seeded the creation of those gas giants, and

429
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: so it's very unlikely to have a planet that doesn't

430
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 1: have some iron in it down below. But the question

431
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: is can the iron be available at the surface, And

432
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: that's a question of like how quickly did the planet cool?

433
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: How long did it stay hot? You know, if it

434
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: stayed hot for a while and there's time for these

435
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: things to sort of settle through the liquid core, then

436
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: it's possible that all the heavy stuff goes all the

437
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: way down and you only get sort of lighter elements

438
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: near the surface. Oh so it's possible to have an

439
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: iron rich planet which is not available for the plants

440
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: and animals up top on the surface. Yeah, all right,

441
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 1: so that's also not implausible. It's not implausible, and it's

442
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: sort of fascinating to imagine like a situation where the

443
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: only iron you can get comes from the sky and

444
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, before humans were able to mine the earth

445
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: and pull out these heavy metals, that was also the case.

446
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: You know, there are examples of like Vikings that forged

447
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: swords from meteorites, you know, because that was the first

448
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,959
Speaker 1: metal that was available, And that's pretty awesome, that's like,

449
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: and you can imagine how that inspired all sorts of mythology. Right, Well,

450
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: I guess my question is if these humans had star

451
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: traveling power and they could go around colonizing, can't they

452
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: just go and like grab a meteor from the nearest

453
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: meteor belt or something that has a lot of iron,

454
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: Or if they have that technology, can they drill down

455
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: until they get to some iron on the core that. Yeah,

456
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: they didn't pack for that. They didn't bring deep mining technology,

457
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: and you know, when they land their technology very pretty

458
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: rapidly degrades, and so they end up, you know, they

459
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: start out as a starfaring technological civilization, but then one generation,

460
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: two generations, five generations deep there at a much lower level.

461
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: They're at a farming subsistence to technology, and they have

462
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: to build up a local infrastructure basically from scratch. They

463
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: had some bad luck when they landed. Some of their

464
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: key technology was lost in a crash from some of

465
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: their shuttles, and so, but I think it's pretty typical

466
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: to imagine that if you land on a planet, you're

467
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: not going to be able to benefit from the heavy

468
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: industry of Earth for very long. You really have to

469
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: be able to build the stuff up locally. You don't

470
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: think that this, you know, like history would repeat itself

471
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: and they would have a bronze age and an iron

472
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: age and start mining things. You know. Yeah, but history

473
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: took a long time, right, that's thousands of years. And

474
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: now even if you know how to do this stuff,

475
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: it's not that easy. You know. What they should have

476
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: done is they should have brought Ryan North how to

477
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: Invent Everything book when he talks about how to create

478
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: all of humans realization in about a hundred would think

479
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: they would bring that on a colonizing ship to another planet,

480
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, a little instruction center in the encyclopedia. But

481
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: it sounds like to me they forgot. Now they brought

482
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of experts. The experts are always the first

483
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: ones to die in a sci fi movie, that's right.

484
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: They lost some of those, and they lost some of

485
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: their more specialized technology. All right, well, sounds really interesting.

486
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: And again, if anyone's interested the novels called Semiosis by

487
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: Sue Burke and so, Daniel, you had a chance to

488
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: talk to her an interview about her book. I did.

489
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 1: We had a lot of fun. All right. Well, here's

490
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: the interview of Daniel with sci fi author Suber. Could

491
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: you please introduce yourself for our audience. Hell, my name

492
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: is Sue Burke and I'm a writer. I'm the author

493
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: of the science fiction books Semiosis and Interference, along with

494
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: a bunch of other stuff and short stories. I was

495
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: a journalist for quite a bit of time, and I'm

496
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 1: also a translator from Spanish into English. Well that's amazing,

497
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: and I read from your website you're also a poet. Yes,

498
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: I write poetry as well. Wow, quite prolific. So let

499
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: me get started by sort of getting acquainted with how

500
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: you view the universe and science fiction universe by asking

501
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: you about sort of standard science fiction universes that exist

502
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: out there and your view on them. For example, Um,

503
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: what's your opinion about the Star Trek teleporter. Do you

504
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: think that when you step into a Star Trek helporter

505
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: it tears you apart and kills you reassembling you somewhere else,

506
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: or that it actually translates you, moves you from one

507
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: place to another. Actually, as an author, I think that

508
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: that was a workaround for all of the mechanics of

509
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: getting someone from hither toojn Um. It's what we're calling

510
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: the business handwaiting that will tell you that this is

511
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: this is just fine. Don't look at it too hard,

512
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: and that's how it works, and it just saves them

513
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: a whole lot of time and effort and boring things

514
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: that people wouldn't want to see. So there's realistically it

515
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't work just because it would take too much in

516
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: formation to build someone rebuild someone. And where would you

517
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: get the parts anyway? I mean, because there's a lot

518
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: that goes into our body. And what if you went

519
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: to a place that didn't have I don't have a

520
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: lot of calcium, you would have phones, You need a

521
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: three D body printer with all the supplies exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

522
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: So then would you be willing to step into one,

523
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: say I somehow overcame all the technical obstacles and put

524
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: one together. Would you be willing to use a teleporter?

525
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: I would be willing to be the million person to

526
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: do that. That's fair. Um So then in other science

527
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: fiction universes, what technology that you see there would you

528
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: like to see become real? Well, let's see the Star

529
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: Trek communicators of course are now real, and that is

530
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: just super cool. Also from an author. That makes sometimes

531
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: plotting very difficult because if you could talk to anybody

532
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: at any time about anything and look things up at

533
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: all times that changes the human dynamics in ways that

534
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: are maybe two settle for us to understand because we

535
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: just lived through it. Perhaps. Yeah. So then let's turn

536
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: to your book and the main topic of it. Um. First, congratulations,

537
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful book. I really enjoyed reading it. I

538
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: read a lot of science fiction. I'm frankly a little

539
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: picky about what I read and what I like, and uh,

540
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: and I found yours to be really wonderful, very creative,

541
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: very well executed. So congrats. And in my reading, sort

542
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: of the main intellectual concept, like the novel idea is

543
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: coming to a planet where plants or the equivalent of plants,

544
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: the sessile creatures, have a higher intelligence and have evolved

545
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: these complex relationships with each other and also with the

546
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: the equivalent of animals on the planet. Is that a

547
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: fair way to describe sort of the core nugget of

548
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: the idea. Yes, in fact, that was the exact idea

549
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to explore. Awesome, So tell me where did

550
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: that idea come from? Did you start from having that

551
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: idea and then trying to tell a story in that

552
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: world or did you have sort of a story you

553
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: wanted to tell and this is the idea you need. Yea. Actually,

554
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: it all started when one of my house plants attacked

555
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: another house plant and killed it. Um. It just grew

556
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: around it and wrapped itself around the other plant till

557
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: it died. And then it happened to another plant, and

558
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: I started to get suspicious, and I began to do

559
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: some research, and I discovered the plants are very active,

560
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: even aggressive. We don't think of that because we don't

561
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: see the move usually, although if you think about carnivorous

562
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: plants there they can move fast. Um. But between themselves

563
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much a constant state of war. Except

564
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: when they decided it's better for them to cooperate, they

565
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 1: can do all sorts of things. And the more I

566
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: researched that, the more I realized that what if they

567
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: could think, because they don't seem to think the way

568
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: that we do, But if they could, then what And

569
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: that was the idea I wanted and I want needed

570
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: to do that in science fiction because obviously it's counter reality.

571
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: And then what would be the way played to explore that?

572
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: So I would need a planet where they could do that,

573
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: because if they started doing it to your on Earth, well,

574
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: that wouldn't work for technical reasons. So okay, well set

575
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: up a planet and then we'll put some humans there,

576
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: and then what could happen? And how could I make

577
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: those events show what the plants could do and how

578
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: they would react to things, and build a story around that.

579
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: Some of our listeners I told them I'd be interviewing you,

580
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: and they asked me to ask you how that might

581
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: change people's relationship with their plants, like in terms of

582
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: ethical questions, like what is it like to eat the

583
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: fruit of an intelligent plant? Is it all right if

584
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: they are giving you consent but otherwise not? How did

585
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: that sort of change that relationship that was built into

586
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: the story because plants do sometimes want fruit. They definitely

587
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: wanted to eat because they may get edible. In fact,

588
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: they make it very attractive to you, and they do

589
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: that because that's one of the ways that that they

590
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: spread their seeds. They have many other ways. True, But

591
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: is that a want in the sense that there is

592
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: an advantage to them they have evolved to do that absolutely,

593
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: or are you attributing you know, an intention a desire

594
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: to the actual organism. We don't know if it's an

595
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: intention or not. But we know that is the purpose

596
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: of the fruit is to be attractive to us so

597
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: that we eat it and we move their seeds. Some plants,

598
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: plants and tomatoes, for example, their seeds can actually go

599
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: right through our digestion unless we cook the tomato. It

600
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: comes out at the other end and ready to go nicely. Yes, um.

601
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: And that happens with other things. And wheat grows a

602
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: whole lot of seeds because they know some of them

603
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: will be eaten, but not all of them will be

604
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: eaten because there's just too many. That's why they may

605
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: make so many. And that's true other grades to One

606
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: of the interesting things is that human beings discovered this

607
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: and we start growing wheat fields. And there's a kind

608
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: of a grain called why. Why just started moving into

609
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: those fields because it looked like a really good way

610
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 1: to live because you've got lots of care and they

611
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: need to know all of them, and then planted more seeds,

612
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: and so I volunteered to become domesticated because that was

613
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: a good way to work. Um. And you can see

614
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: now oak trees, for example, they just do not cooperate

615
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: at all. Whole another subject. But yeah, oak trees just

616
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: don't behave well. Apple trees, on the other hand, apple

617
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: trees clearly thought it was a good idea. They were

618
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: quite willing to do that. Think about marijuana and how

619
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: we can breed that into the little things that basically

620
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: do nothing but grow flowers since that, and they're very

621
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: willing to do that too, because it works for them,

622
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: because they keep getting replanted. So some plants want to

623
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: do it, some plants don't. They have all sorts of

624
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: other ways to do that, and some of it is

625
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: actually very abusive to animals. So it seems to me

626
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: like this concept of plants having intention and intelligence, that

627
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: you see it sort of as a natural extension of

628
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: the sort of continuum of plant relationships to animals now,

629
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: not something totally distinct, which is sort of like an

630
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: exaggeration or an extension of what's happening in our universe.

631
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we grew up with each other and we

632
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: depend on each other, and if you could put that

633
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: where we would all have to think about that, both

634
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: them and us. Then, as you say, it does cause

635
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: ethical questions, which I tried to explore in the novel,

636
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: but it also makes it more clue that that's what

637
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: we're doing here. We don't think about it enough. I

638
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: think if you talk to ecologists, and especially farming ecologists,

639
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: there's we're doing some things that are very scary and wrong,

640
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and they're going to come back to get us. But

641
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: that relationship exists here. We just don't think about it

642
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: very hard. I mean, have you thought about your tomato

643
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: is talking to you when it turns red? Well? It is,

644
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: But we're just so used to that that we don't

645
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: realize that we are in communication. And some people talk

646
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: to their tomatoes, are right. People talk to their plans

647
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: and I don't know if they listen. But I do

648
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: that too well. I talked to my children and I

649
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: don't know if they listen. How do I do it? Anyway? Well,

650
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: let let me ask you this. Do you imagine in

651
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: that the universe that you described could exist, that those

652
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: kinds of plants could exist here in our universe, and

653
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: you imagine that there could be an alien planet out

654
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: there in which plants do develop intelligence. Do you think

655
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: they would need to be a different set of laws

656
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,239
Speaker 1: of physics or that there's some scientific principle that that

657
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: needs to be sort of handwaves. No, they could do

658
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: that now, And in fact, there's some debate out where

659
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: whether they do that here. One of the things is

660
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: that beyond tomatoes turning red and for showing that that

661
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: it's right, how much do they really need to talk

662
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: to us about. We know they communicate with each other

663
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: a lot, but they might not have that much to

664
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: say to us. So well, they do communicate here with

665
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: each other. Um, we haven't deciphered that, but we know,

666
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: for example, whales communicate with each other and we're not

667
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: sure what they're saying either. Just because we can't break

668
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: that code, it could very easily happen somewhere in the

669
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: university right now the way I wrote about it, give

670
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: us another million years for the plants to to keep

671
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: making changes and prep we could enter into a more

672
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: direct relationship. And so the plants in your novel, do

673
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: they have like a central nervous system? What is this

674
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: sort of implementation the strata on which this intelligence is built. Yeah,

675
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: they have a central nervous system which helps them to

676
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: communicate with us more like recommunicate with each other. There

677
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: is a um a neurobotanist named Mancuso, and he says

678
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: that the way the plants work because they don't have

679
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: a central nervous system, but they work if you can

680
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: imagine a flock of startlings and how they all can

681
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: fly sort of in the same direction. Um and in

682
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: giant flocks, the way they do that is they all

683
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: just look out at the birds that are closest to

684
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: them and follow them and then in an aggregate it

685
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: looks like they're one giant thing. And he says that

686
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: it works with plants that same way, as that each

687
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: cell looks what's going on with the cells around it,

688
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: just to that and in that way, plants can do

689
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: things that look very complex, and they are very complex,

690
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: but they can do it without a central nervous system.

691
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: And so then the plants in your novel, do they

692
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: have a nervous system for communication but it's distributed to

693
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: the plant or is there some sort of like hub,

694
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: like a brain like thing in the plants that you

695
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: that you described, Yeah, their brains around their roots, which

696
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: might not be what we know that their roots do

697
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: a whole lot of things here too, And I want

698
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: to point out the plants have personalities. They make different

699
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: decisions because they have to make decisions when they decide

700
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: to put out their leaves and spring is a life

701
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: or death decision. If they get that wrong and then

702
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: the weather gets screwed up, they can wipe out a

703
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: whole growing season and that would be fatal. And different trees,

704
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: even of the same species, even growing next to each other, well,

705
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: sometimes decide to do things differently. One tree will pick

706
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: one day, in the next tree next to it will

707
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: pick the next day. Why did they do that? How

708
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: do they do that? Well, they make a whole bunch

709
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: of choices inside of themselves. Do you think some trees

710
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: like are procrastinators and they just don't get around to it?

711
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: Um procrastinators. Some seem to be very cautious. They've been

712
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: described as cautious by botanists. Some trees are willing to

713
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: take a lot more risks um, And this is true

714
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: of other plants as well. It's hard for us to

715
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: notice because they move so slow, and unless you're you're like,

716
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 1: like watching them like a scientist every hour, you can't

717
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: see what they're doing because we have other things to

718
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: worry about. But different plants make different decisions that are

719
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: very important, and we can kind of guess that that

720
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: some of this there's natural variation between them because they

721
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: have to adjust to changing conditions. All the time, so

722
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: they try all sorts of different things, and different individuals

723
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: will be doing things in a different way. They certainly

724
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: have their own individual personalities. That's right. We're having a

725
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: lot of fun talking to Suberg. But let's take a

726
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: quick break and we'll be right back with more. All right,

727
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: we're back with my interview with Sue Berke, science fiction

728
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: author of Semiosis. So let me ask you about the

729
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: sort of spot that you put these folks in. Because

730
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: you created this wonderful universe. You introduced the humans to

731
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: these intelligent plants, and then you gave them some hard

732
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: problems to solve. And one of the challenges in your

733
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: universe is that the planet they land on has a

734
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: very low iron content. How much of course iron is

735
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: something we need to survive. Tell me about how you

736
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: made that choice and whether you did some sort of

737
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: like science consulting to talk to folks. Now, I started

738
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: because okay, I'm going to put them on another planet.

739
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: Well what do we know about other planets? And I

740
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: began to do research into that and in books and

741
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: scient just put things out. One of the things I

742
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: learned is that when plants planets are formed, um, they're

743
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: all pretty much seemed to be the iron nickel sort

744
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: of core that we have, but on our planet iron

745
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: quite a bit of it a state on the surface.

746
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: It's very easy to find iron here. It's easy to

747
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: find iron on Mars. But if a planet was formed

748
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: in just a few little things went differently, there wouldn't

749
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: be iron on the surface. And when I read that,

750
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: that told that that inspired an understanding of a conflict

751
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: that was going to happen because plants need iron. We

752
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: think that animals and the iron, and we do, but

753
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: plants also need iron for some of the chemicals to

754
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: do photosynthesis, So plants need iron, animals have iron. Plants

755
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: already eat animals when it's when they need to. If

756
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: they can't get enough nitrogen and their localized environment, they'll

757
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: doing carnivorous and start to eat us. So if they

758
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: need iron and we have iron, and if they can sink,

759
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: they'll start to think of ways to get the iron

760
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: out of us, which is a whole until fruits. Yes,

761
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: we become food for them, which is a whole series

762
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: of other ethical concerns that appear in the novel. Very quickly, right,

763
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: I thought that was really fun and uh and fascinating,

764
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: and it's interesting to imagine how a culture would survive

765
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: with a very small amount of iron. You know that

766
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: basically be harvesting meteorites and recycling as much as they could.

767
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: So I was also really interested in how you got

768
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: these sentient beings to work together, because not only did

769
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: they need to work together and to communicate, but you

770
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: had them actually come to a common understanding, like to

771
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: actually understand each other to develop relationships and friendships. Do

772
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: you think that's necessary? Um, that's basically how society works,

773
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: how a civilization works among humans. Were so close to

774
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: what we do that we don't always see it, but

775
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: we work out of human connections, interconnections with different people.

776
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: We have large organizations that allow us to work under it.

777
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: So we understand how we have agreements built into how

778
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: we relate to each other. We are naturally social beings,

779
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: human beings, just as as other primates are. But here's

780
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: the thing. Plants are social beings to we know trees

781
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: like to be around other trees like itself, and that

782
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: they communicate as as we've noticed, they send messages through

783
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: their roots. They send messages through the air with chemicals

784
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: and a tree that is among other trees, like it

785
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: will be healthier and live longer than a tree that

786
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: is alone. And that is also true of human beings.

787
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: If you put a human being in solitary confinement, they

788
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: suffer terribly physically and mentally. So that you have two

789
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: groups of social beings that come together and they're going

790
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: to behaves as social beings and set up social constructs,

791
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: and all of the hobbs and in other sorts of

792
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: political philosophers and their thoughts about how we do that

793
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: remain true. The fact that it's two different species and

794
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: such different species puts in some some problems but also

795
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: some solutions. And in your book you try to use

796
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: beauty sort of appreciation, you know, joy, to sort of

797
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: connect our experience with theirs, like if we could enjoy

798
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 1: the same music, then we had something in common. And

799
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: as I'm sure you know, some of the probes that

800
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: we've sent out into interstellar space have had samples of

801
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: human music on them. Do you think that that will

802
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: be well received? You think of their aliens out there

803
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: that received that probe, or here are broadcasts that they're like,

804
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, thump along too our music and be like, hey,

805
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: those are folks we can understand they might they might

806
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: not again. This is a theme that is explored by

807
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: many writers and in fruitfully and would be a lot

808
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: of fun? Is it is a lot of fun? How

809
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: much do we recognize? How much do we have in common?

810
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: If a rock was alive and they could be, the

811
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: problem is they would be so slow. They could make

812
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: music that we could never hear because even over generations,

813
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: we don't live long enough. If they're too fast, would

814
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: be here them. So the question you ask is is maybe,

815
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: And the fun is when would we and when would

816
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: be not? And why? Or if we hear something and

817
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: we know it's music, even if it sounds horrible to

818
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: us and we can't stand it. It's black, it's fingernails

819
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: on a blackboard, but we know they're making music. Would

820
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: that be enough they're trying that we have in common? Well,

821
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: I hope that one day we get answers to those questions.

822
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: There are questions that I'm very curious about as well.

823
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: So I was just glad in your book that to

824
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: see those humans get to meet aliens and connect with

825
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: them on this deep level, work together and and uh

826
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: and experience each other's joy. That was wonderful. Um great,

827
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: So thanks very much, well, thank you. It was a

828
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: pleasure for me to take care safe. As you can see,

829
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: no question is too nerdy for me. All right, pretty

830
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: interesting conversation there about plants and intelligence and my favorite procrastination. Yeah,

831
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: I did that one for you. I asked her if

832
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: she thought plans procrastinate, and you know, you can hear

833
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: in her voice that she really thinks that plants here

834
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: on earth are part of a sort of tenuum of

835
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: communication and therefore some effectively some kind of intelligence. You know,

836
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: tomatoes talk to you by changing color, and plants communicate

837
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: to you by what tomatoes talk to me. Tomatoes tell

838
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: you when they're ripe, right by changing color. Oh I see, yeah,

839
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: I see. They're training me kind of what you're saying exactly,

840
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: just the way the plants in her novel train their

841
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: animals to do something or not do something. Apple trees,

842
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 1: you know, induce you to eat their fruit by making

843
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: them tasty and all sorts of stuff. And that's a

844
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: question about whether you could like attribute any intention to

845
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: the apple tree or if it's essentially a dumb biological machine.

846
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: But she's definitely right that they communicate, right, and at

847
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: the end, aren't we all dumb biological machine. That's a

848
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: deep question about the universe I certainly don't have the

849
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: answer to. But she's very pro plant I guess she's

850
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: really into nature and plants. Yeah, I'm not sure where

851
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: she would come down on, you know, whether bananas have rights.

852
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like it was respectful to ask her

853
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: that question. I just assume that bananas are in charge.

854
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: Then why are you eating them and they're not eating you?

855
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm um, well, I'm just doing their biddings. This

856
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: is part of the long game for bananas. But I

857
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: was also impressed she really thought about the science of

858
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: her book. She was not trying to create something and

859
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: a completely alien, made up universe. She was just imagining

860
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: how life could be different on another planet. You know,

861
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: she looked at the way things work here and she

862
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: just tweaked it a little bit. She's like, let's exaggerate

863
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: this element of it or play out this thing here

864
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: on Earth, which she didn't think was widely enough appreciated.

865
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: All right, well, pretty cool. Well, I guess it kind

866
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: of makes you think about, um, what intelligence could be

867
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: like in other planets, right, because it doesn't necessarily have

868
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: to be like we have it here on Earth, you know,

869
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: like we talked about Last Time, and a lot of

870
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: Star Trek episodes and movies like Star Wars. They imagine

871
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: life pretty similar to us with like you know, four limbs,

872
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: five fingers. But really, I mean life out there could

873
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: take on any form. It could be like Sentien clouds

874
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: or blobs of silicone. Right, that's right. And as much

875
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: as I say I'd like to talk to aliens, there's

876
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: a good chance that aliens out there have an intelligence.

877
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: If they are out there and they are intelligence, that

878
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: their intelligence would be very difficult for us to understand.

879
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: You know. A key element in her book is that

880
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: these humans and these plans find a commonality. They find

881
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: a way to talk to each other. They have things

882
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: in common, They appreciate things, they both want to survive.

883
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: They appreciate beauty or something. And so it's a question of, like,

884
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: will those aliens be able to understand that we are intelligent?

885
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: Can they see intelligence in us or they whether they

886
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: think about intelligence the same way we do, they might

887
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: see it as something totally different, that's right. And you know,

888
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: we famously sent out signals into space and like on

889
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: one of the Voyager probes. For example, we put some music,

890
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: and I always wonder, like aliens get that, Are they

891
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: even gonna understand that it's music? And if they do,

892
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: is it gonna make them like us less or more? They?

893
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: You know, is that the kind of thing that we're

894
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: have in common with aliens? Did you sound like static

895
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: to them? You know, an annoying sound. Yeah, it could

896
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: sound like the annoying music their kids listen to. And

897
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: then they're like, lets skip that planet entirely. Obviously we

898
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: should be sending out tomatoes and bananas just in case.

899
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: We really have no idea what the forms of intelligence are.

900
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: And so even a book like this where it seems

901
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: pretty weird to imagine intelligent plants, that's really not very

902
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: far from what's happening on Earth compared to what could

903
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: really be out there. Who knows, right? Who knows? And

904
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: also this book reminded me of one of my favorite comics,

905
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: Jack Handy, one of his deep thoughts, which is, if

906
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting

907
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: them down? We might if they screamed all the time

908
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: for no good reason. That's a classic for sure. Do

909
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: you think maybe she had a little bit of that

910
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: in her motivation, you know, for us to think a

911
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: little bit differently about plants and not be so cavalier

912
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: about cutting them down or eating them. Yeah, I think

913
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: she's definitely pro plant, But I think also her goal

914
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: is just to make us think about our intelligence and

915
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: the context of our lives, and to remember that thing

916
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: is out there in the universe could really be very

917
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: different from the way they are here on Earth, and

918
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: they probably are, and let's hope they are, because it

919
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: would be pretty disappointing if we met aliens and they

920
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: were just like humans and they had only figured out

921
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: what we have figured out, and so we basically learned

922
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: nothing from them, and they're like, we thought you guys

923
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: had the answers to everything. What have you been doing

924
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: all these years? Come on, I'm going to write the

925
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: most boring, disappointing science fiction novel ever. In our version

926
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: of The Hitchhiker Chalacter Galaxy, the answer is thirty seven.

927
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: What's your answer? All right? Well, we hope you enjoyed

928
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: this episode, and we hope you check out Superberg's sci

929
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: fi novels Semiosis. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I think

930
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: you'd like it as well, thanks for joining us, see

931
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: you next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

932
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of I

933
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcast for my heart Radio, visit

934
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or or whatever.

935
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: You listen to your favorite chise