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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,

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Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love

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Speaker 3: our careers and our families.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 1: Term career goals.

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Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This

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Speaker 2: episode is airing in mid July of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Kelly Nolan, who is

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Speaker 2: a time management expert known for the Bright Method. So, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: how did you get to know Kelly?

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Speaker 3: That's actually a great question, Like, initially I think she

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Speaker 3: might have sent me an email to see if she

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Speaker 3: could come on to Best Laid Plans maybe, and that's

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Speaker 3: how I found out about her and learned about her.

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Speaker 3: But we've actually been connected for a number of years

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Speaker 3: now and we've had lots of great conversations about how

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Speaker 3: to run courses. She was actually one of the people

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Speaker 3: who really encouraged me to move forward with best laid plans,

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Speaker 3: academy kind of telling me and maybe this is like

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Speaker 3: two behind the scenes, but like no course creator truly

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Speaker 3: knows exactly what they're doing until they do it, So

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Speaker 3: to just go ahead and make something and see how

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Speaker 3: people respond and iterate from there. And I found that

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Speaker 3: to be incredibly empowering and valuable. And I'm so excited

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Speaker 3: to welcome Kelly back on the show to talk about

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Speaker 3: her favorite thing to talk about, which is her Bright Method.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little sort of lean startup there with

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Speaker 2: the course creation, right, you put something out and then

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Speaker 2: iterate from there. So yeah, the Bright Method. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously we'll learn more about this from Kelly and the

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Speaker 2: course of the interview, but from what I understand of it,

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Speaker 2: the basic idea is putting every thing on the calendar,

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Speaker 2: including recurring things and sort of time that has transitioned

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Speaker 2: between things, so that you know exactly what is on

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Speaker 2: your plate, which makes sense because a lot of people

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Speaker 2: sort of underestimate the time spent on recurring tasks, either

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Speaker 2: that's maintenance like work routine administration or life administration and

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Speaker 2: life maintenance at home, and so if you don't account

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Speaker 2: for the fact that it takes x amount of time

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Speaker 2: to go to the grocery store or to cook dinner,

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Speaker 2: or to take a shower or anything like that, you

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Speaker 2: don't know how much time is available for other things,

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Speaker 2: and so you have a tendency to put things on

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Speaker 2: your plate that don't really fit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and she has a way of just making things

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Speaker 3: very very clear for people that tend to just I

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Speaker 3: don't know slip by many of us. And she also

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Speaker 3: has an expertise on how the moving parts work within

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Speaker 3: a household and how various people are contributing chunks of

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Speaker 3: their time and efforts. So not only does her work

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Speaker 3: I think, really answer to some personal productivity dilemmas, but

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Speaker 3: also has helped families run more smoothly.

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Speaker 2: Do you put everything on your calendar, Sarah, No.

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Speaker 1: I do not.

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Speaker 3: I do love to, and I've talked about this just

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Speaker 3: in some of our kind of planning episodes, But I

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Speaker 3: love to lay out my day in a very visual

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Speaker 3: way so I can see where all the kind of

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Speaker 3: pre determined commitments are. In fact, today, as I'm recording this,

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Speaker 3: I have a really busy day, including family responsibilities, different

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Speaker 3: recording things, different kind of on stage things, and it

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Speaker 3: helped me so much to be able to see, oh,

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Speaker 3: here's my gaps. But I do not plan what's going

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Speaker 3: to actually happen within those gaps ahead of time. Instead,

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Speaker 3: I have my to do list, and I kind of

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Speaker 3: holistically prefer to pull things as the time goes by.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I can absolutely see merits to both sides, and I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't shy away from someday experimenting and trying out Kelly's method.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and Jeno, you want to make sure

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Speaker 2: that you know where your time is going. And I

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Speaker 2: think I get some of this at the time tracking,

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Speaker 2: Like I can't pretend that it takes less time for

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Speaker 2: something to happen than it does because I see it

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Speaker 2: on my time log after I review it time after time.

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Speaker 2: But I know most people don't track their time. So

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Speaker 2: I think you could do it prospectively putting all this

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Speaker 2: on the calendar, or you could do it retrospectively with

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Speaker 2: a time log. But knowing where the time goes is

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Speaker 2: a big part of spending your time better. So let's

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Speaker 2: hear what Kelly Nolan has to say.

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Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to be here on this

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Speaker 3: stormy day in South Florida talking to Kelly Nolan, the

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Speaker 3: creator and leader of The Bright Method and a friend

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Speaker 3: of mine. Welcome to the show, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's so fun,

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Speaker 1: like any excuse to get to hang out with you, Sarah.

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Speaker 3: I love it, and Kelly and I usually takes walks

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Speaker 3: together and we talk on the phone. But it's probably

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Speaker 3: good that we're not doing that today given the weather.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, Kelly, how did you get connected to the

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Speaker 3: show in the first place? I can't remember. Was it

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Speaker 3: before or after you started your course and your.

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Speaker 1: Methods getting connected to your podcast?

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Speaker 3: Yes, invested both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I found you through best laid plans, and I

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Speaker 1: think I was following you there. And this was after

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Speaker 1: i'd started this business, because candidly, probably if I had

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Speaker 1: heard you earlier, I would have been like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: could go into that world. And it took a different

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Speaker 1: route for me to understand entrepreneurship was an option for me.

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Speaker 1: But luckily I got there and one way or another,

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Speaker 1: and then I found you through just trying to find

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Speaker 1: podcasts that were doing similar things to mine, and then

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Speaker 1: through you I found best of both worlds. And so

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Speaker 1: here we are amazing.

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Speaker 3: I love it well, I would love listeners. I know

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Speaker 3: the story of kind of how things grew out of

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Speaker 3: your legal career into what you're doing now, But I

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Speaker 3: doubt that our listeners have that background. So why don't

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Speaker 3: you go ahead and share your path? Take us back

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Speaker 3: to when you were practicing in big law. I think

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Speaker 3: you were a patent attorney, and where you were at

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Speaker 3: that time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I decided in sixth grade to be a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Was on my little trail to becoming a lawyer, became

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, and all the way through that process I

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Speaker 1: used paper planners. I love them. I felt decently organized.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like perfect, but for the most part, I

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Speaker 1: felt pretty good. And becoming an actual practicing attorney was

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Speaker 1: the first time that I suddenly felt like WHOA like.

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Speaker 1: I was still reliable On the outside, I looked successful,

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Speaker 1: I looked like I had it together. I was known

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Speaker 1: as reliable at work, but inside it suddenly did not

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Speaker 1: feel like a way that I wanted life to feel.

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Speaker 1: I felt really scattered. I felt anxious I was going

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Speaker 1: to drop a ball. I'd have people swing by and

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Speaker 1: be like, do you have the bandwidth to take this on?

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know, Like I'm pretty sure I'm drowning,

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Speaker 1: but like, how do I objectively know if I am?

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Speaker 1: And I looked for help out there a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was busy, so it was hard to

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time trying to figure out time management,

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Speaker 1: but nothing was really sticking. And then one day I

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Speaker 1: still remember it, I was sitting in my Boston office,

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Speaker 1: like legal pads next to me, one for each case,

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Speaker 1: long to do lists, swamp A posted notes, sticky notes

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Speaker 1: all over my computer, and I was in my email

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Speaker 1: and I was emailing this opposing counsel and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I have to hear back from him in the next

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Speaker 1: two hours because we have to jointly move for an

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Speaker 1: extension if I don't whatever, And I was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to forget though, I'm going to send this email

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Speaker 1: and forget to follow up with him in two hours

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Speaker 1: because of all this other stuff. And I still don't

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Speaker 1: know what made me do it, but I bcced myself.

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Speaker 1: It came back. I dragged that email to the calendar

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Speaker 1: icon and outlook, if you have an email, you can

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Speaker 1: drag it to the calendar. I kind of let go

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Speaker 1: and it creates a calendar event with the email and

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Speaker 1: the body and I just said like, if no word,

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Speaker 1: follow up with this guy and saved it for two

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Speaker 1: hours later and I was like, whoa, this is a way.

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Speaker 1: It was like relief and empowerment of like I can

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Speaker 1: see that I'll be at my desk. Then it's going

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Speaker 1: to alert me when it's time. My brain isn't the

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Speaker 1: alarm clock in this, I can focus on other things.

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Speaker 1: It will remind me to do it. And I suddenly

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Speaker 1: was like, wait, I could use this. And so over

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Speaker 1: time I started doing that more and more on the

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Speaker 1: task front at work, but not really in my personal

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Speaker 1: life still, and it wasn't INtime. Actually I started dating

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Speaker 1: my now husband, who's an eur physician, and I every

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Speaker 1: day was like when are you working next? When are

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Speaker 1: you working and all that stuff. I think it was

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Speaker 1: his idea. He was like, why don't we have a

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Speaker 1: joint calendar, like a shared calendar and I can share

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Speaker 1: my shifts with you? And I was like great, and

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Speaker 1: it suddenly I was like, oh, and now I understand

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Speaker 1: how your life interacts with my life and if I

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Speaker 1: put other stuff in here, and so slowly, over time

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Speaker 1: what I was doing at work bled into my personal

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Speaker 1: life and then since then I've had two kids and

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Speaker 1: a dog and all sorts of things that it's really

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Speaker 1: evolved with me. But it's really using the bright method's

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Speaker 1: core concept, which to like, all these things sound simple,

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Speaker 1: and then implementing can be a more challenging. And I

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Speaker 1: share that just to say that whoever's listening, if you

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Speaker 1: struggle with basic sounding concepts, then you think it's you.

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Speaker 1: It's not. This stuff is challenging, but the core concept

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Speaker 1: is just using your calendar to really get all the

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Speaker 1: things that you are managing in your head and expecting

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Speaker 1: of yourself out into a visual system. I prefer digital

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Speaker 1: Sarahraford's paper. I think our approach is very similar, even

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Speaker 1: if our tools differ, and it's just to try and understand,

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Speaker 1: get it out of your head, lighten that mental load,

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Speaker 1: see how it all interacts, and communicate with people outside

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Speaker 1: of you in a way that works for you to

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Speaker 1: share the load. I love it.

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Speaker 3: I love how you describe that moment as like freedom,

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Speaker 3: when you're like, wait a second, and yeah, I can

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Speaker 3: ping this to my future self and I don't have

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Speaker 3: to think about it anymore, and you realize, like the

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Speaker 3: amount of drag that these tasks have on you. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I just still always it harkens back to David Allen

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Speaker 3: for me, because I feel like in his book he

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Speaker 3: just describes that so well, like the just the cognitive

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Speaker 3: burden that we have when we don't know what's on

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Speaker 3: our plates. Yes, and your system so elegantly like ties

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Speaker 3: it up with a digital bow and also integrates the

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Speaker 3: personal and the professional so well. So I agree we

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Speaker 3: do a lot of things similarly, but you are definitely

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Speaker 3: the queen of making it look beautiful in a functional digital.

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Speaker 1: So I disagree with that distinction, but we'll go with it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you've now done this for years. You developed the

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Speaker 3: system for yourself, and you stayed working for quite a while.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like you use it for five minutes and

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Speaker 3: then we're out. You know, you can develop it and

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Speaker 3: then how many years now have you been teaching these courses.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a really good point. I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: it up that I developed this and I honestly thought

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Speaker 1: I was creating something to catch me up to where

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Speaker 1: everybody else already was. Because I think that's the tricky

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Speaker 1: part is when you feel this way. I just remember

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Speaker 1: feeling the way I framed it in my head that

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Speaker 1: I used to think of it as I thought. I

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Speaker 1: thought there was like a how to adult memo. I

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Speaker 1: did not get it. Seemed like everybody else knew how

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Speaker 1: to do this, and I was struggling. So I created

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Speaker 1: this system and was like, Okay, now I can be

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Speaker 1: where everybody else is, and that kept practicing. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: until I actually moved from Boston to California for my

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Speaker 1: husband's residency. Did not enjoy practicing law. I was trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what was next. I actually thought I

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Speaker 1: would do like home organizing, which is hilarious and like

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Speaker 1: terrible that stuff. But a couple clients, long story short,

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Speaker 1: we were looking at my calendar and they were like,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting, and that's what made me be like, oh, really, okay,

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Speaker 1: I can teach this. So that was probably in twenty

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Speaker 1: eighteen or twenty nineteen, and then I was doing more

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Speaker 1: like one on one work with people, but the pandemic

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Speaker 1: really pushed me into group programs, and so twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: was when I shifted into group programs because again my

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Speaker 1: husband was gone in the er and my two year

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Speaker 1: old was home and I couldn't do to one on

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Speaker 1: one anymore, and so I got pushed into group programs,

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Speaker 1: which was magical because, like I can tell people all

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Speaker 1: day long, you're not weird for feeling this way, everyone

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Speaker 1: feels this way, or more people at least than you realize,

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Speaker 1: and so on. But until you're in a room with

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Speaker 1: twenty forty sixty other people who you find impressive and

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Speaker 1: still also struggle with this, then you can let go

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Speaker 1: of the shame around it and be like, Okay, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's not just me, and I can look for solutions

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Speaker 1: outside of myself. So I've been doing it since twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: I think I've worked with over six hundred people now,

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Speaker 1: which is wild, and it's evolved like how I work

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Speaker 1: with the group program itself. But we're at a ten

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Speaker 1: week program now and I love it. I absolutely love it.

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Speaker 1: So cool.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're gonna take a quick break and then I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna ask you some what common themes you've found throughout

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Speaker 3: the years now of doing this. All right, we will

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Speaker 3: be right back. All right, we are back, and as

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Speaker 3: you've gotten all of this experience, and by the way,

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Speaker 3: I'll circle back to the fact that you mentioned that

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Speaker 3: doing these programs in groups, the groups end up learning

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Speaker 3: from each other and feeling less alone. I have found

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Speaker 3: that as well, and it is one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: I love doing the courses that I do. But with

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Speaker 3: that aside, there's obviously some common themes that you've seen emerge.

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Speaker 3: So what do you feel like are the most common

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Speaker 3: sources of overwhelm for these professional mostly women, although I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you get some men too that you've led through

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Speaker 3: your course.

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Speaker 1: I think what's tricky is and it varies. I think

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Speaker 1: that for most people, especially women, and I'm sure it

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Speaker 1: applies to men as well, there's often a tipping point,

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Speaker 1: like kind of my experience of suddenly I'm a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and that was my tipping point of WHOA, there's too

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Speaker 1: much to manage. My system that got me far, just

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Speaker 1: can't keep up with my life anymore. I was an

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Speaker 1: early bloomer. Most people it's not as early, but often

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Speaker 1: it's like a baby or a promotion or a second baby,

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Speaker 1: or there's just lots of tipping points. And to me,

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Speaker 1: what that signifies typically is it's usually not just work

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Speaker 1: or not just personal. It's the tension between the two.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: We juggle so much. The invisible load of what we

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Speaker 1: manage and keep in our head is so much. And

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Speaker 1: I think the tricky part for a lot of the

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Speaker 1: women I work with is they don't actually need a

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Speaker 1: ton of help becoming more productive. They need help being

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Speaker 1: able to turn it off, like they need help to

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Speaker 1: be able to understand where is my capacity, what's my

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Speaker 1: actual workload around that? How do I manage it with

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Speaker 1: clarity and understanding that I don't have to do everything

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Speaker 1: right now for it to happen, for to happen in time,

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Speaker 1: all of that, and that I can actually take a

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Speaker 1: break and my brain is there, not just my body

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Speaker 1: relaxing about. My brain is also there. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the biggest things that I work on.

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Speaker 1: And there are a couple of ways we can get

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Speaker 1: at that, both from what we were already talking about,

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Speaker 1: the kind of invisible load. There's so much churning in

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Speaker 1: our brain and we're constantly trying to juggle. Well, if

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Speaker 1: I don't do it now, when will it get done? Okay,

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Speaker 1: and let me back out that we're going to leave

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Speaker 1: it this time, so we back out all the domino

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Speaker 1: effects of when you have to have things ready or oh,

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Speaker 1: I have this work presentation next week, but they're fifteen

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Speaker 1: things that go into that and I haven't captured them anywhere.

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Speaker 1: So part of it, and I know your approach is similar,

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Speaker 1: is trying to capture all the things flying around in

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Speaker 1: our head, make them visual, tie them to time, so

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Speaker 1: that we understand, Okay, what are all the things we're doing,

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Speaker 1: When are we doing them? How long are they going

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Speaker 1: to take? Do they fit with everything else I'm planning

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Speaker 1: on doing across my personal and professional roles. I see

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Speaker 1: that they can happen in the future, even with some

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Speaker 1: loggal room built in. Okay, I have curveballs, but we

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Speaker 1: account for that in the plans all of that. If

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Speaker 1: you can help your brain see I've got it all,

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Speaker 1: it's all laid out, I don't have to do it all.

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Speaker 1: There's flex time built in, then your brain can actually relax.

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Speaker 1: And I find that to be what most women I

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Speaker 1: work with truly want. It's not just the productivity hacks

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Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. It's like the peace

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Speaker 1: of mind and turn it.

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Speaker 3: Off, yep, to be able to relax between tasks knowing, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I have a plan for that I've already decided, it's

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Speaker 3: out there, it's captured, and I can now be with

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Speaker 3: my child, or be on this date, or be reading

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Speaker 3: a book or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: That is beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well we're gonna pivot a little bit to boundaries,

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Speaker 3: and I think you kind of got at this a

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Speaker 3: little bit. But one of the things that I hear

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Speaker 3: from it my courses a lot is that all sounds great,

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Speaker 3: but I'm getting Slack messages every thirty seconds. So how

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Speaker 3: do you deal with that?

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Speaker 1: I know how I.

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Speaker 3: Tend to answer these things, but I totally want to

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Speaker 3: know how you which through people through this ever present

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Speaker 3: challenge in our current modern working world.

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Speaker 1: Well, there are a couple of ways that we can

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Speaker 1: talk about it. One framework I have found very useful,

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Speaker 1: and it's not mine. I believe it's originally from someone

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Speaker 1: called Paul Graham, and it was covered by Farnham Street,

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Speaker 1: which is where I read about it. But it was

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Speaker 1: based on Paul Graham's original essay and he talked about

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Speaker 1: the distinction between managers and makers. Now, this is not

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Speaker 1: a framework that applies to everybody, but I think everybody

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Speaker 1: can kind of relate a little bit, and the concept

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Speaker 1: as it sounds is are you a manager that manages

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Speaker 1: people or are you a maker who does a lot

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Speaker 1: of headstone work, or which is very common these days,

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Speaker 1: are you a combination of both? But having stilled the

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Speaker 1: clarity of what is the type of task I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to do? What seasons am I one of more than

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Speaker 1: the other? Sometimes is helpful because the reason that it's

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Speaker 1: helpful is managers, in terms of what it means for

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Speaker 1: their schedule, lean into collaborative stuff. They need to be

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Speaker 1: involved in the messages, the meetings. Their job is to

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Speaker 1: help teams move things forward, get past choke points, help

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Speaker 1: people through those issues where makers need more heads down

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Speaker 1: work time outside of meetings, time away from the responsive

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Speaker 1: work to actually put their heads down and do the work.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Cal Newport who talks about the

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Speaker 1: challenge here also of we have imposed manager schedules on

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Speaker 1: makers in our culture. We do open floor concepts, we

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Speaker 1: do a lot of meetings, we do slack and all

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Speaker 1: of that makes sense to managers who are often the

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Speaker 1: ones making those decisions because that's their world, and they

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Speaker 1: dismiss the value that they're the environment their teammates need

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Speaker 1: that are makers to do the work. And I bring

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Speaker 1: all that up in the context of messaging because it's

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Speaker 1: important to know where you fall. Like sometimes as a manager,

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Speaker 1: we often are like, I want to get to my

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Speaker 1: heads down work, but I'm just stuck over here where.

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Speaker 1: I think it's helpful to realize, actually, my company and

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Speaker 1: organization wants me here because they want my judgment being

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Speaker 1: brought to all this. But what does that mean? And

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Speaker 1: that means we actually need to get rid of the

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Speaker 1: other work for you as much as we can. We

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Speaker 1: still want heads down work for strategy and that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but you actually want to be over here

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Speaker 1: where makers. We do want to work you away from email.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's a really helpful framework for some

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Speaker 1: people where they're like, oh, okay, actually I don't have

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Speaker 1: to fight being in slack or email or meetings so

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Speaker 1: much if that is where my role is. I want

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Speaker 1: to protect my teammates of makers away from that a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But it's just a helpful thing to think

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Speaker 1: through in that context. I think it can be helpful

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Speaker 1: then to think about what's a reasonable response time. I

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Speaker 1: think that can help us understand like if same business

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Speaker 1: day response time is appropriate for let's say external people.

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Speaker 1: Then maybe you can use that to dictate how often

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Speaker 1: you go dark from these things. Because even if you're

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Speaker 1: let's say you're a manager and you're like, I really

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Speaker 1: need to be here, can we still protect forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes an hour and a half once or twice a

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Speaker 1: week to get you that heads down strategic work. For

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Speaker 1: some managers, they also might need to leave the office

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Speaker 1: or their particular office and go find a conference room

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Speaker 1: to get that and not be interrupted. Where makers you

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Speaker 1: might be aiming for more heads down work and things

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Speaker 1: like that, but that responsive window can help dictate how

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Speaker 1: comfortable you feel going dark. And then I mean, I

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Speaker 1: could keep going on and on, so I'll cut myself off.

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Speaker 1: The last thing I will say is it can be

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Speaker 1: very helpful to realize we do this for other people.

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Speaker 1: You might go fly for work on a four hour

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Speaker 1: flight and be off email, or you might go into

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Speaker 1: six hours of depositions if you're an attorney, or you

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Speaker 1: go into clinic as a physician and are unavailable for

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Speaker 1: periods of time. We do that when we think it's

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Speaker 1: justified for other people, but then we won't do that

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Speaker 1: for quote unquote ourselves. I'm really talking about focus works.

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Speaker 1: You're still working and not doing it for ourselves, but

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Speaker 1: we won't do it for ourselves to protect our evenings

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Speaker 1: or our weekends from that. And I think it can

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Speaker 1: be helpful to realize, Okay, I do this in other situations.

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Speaker 1: Let me try and do this for focus work. If

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Speaker 1: I feel really uncomfortable, I'll set a forty five minute timer,

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Speaker 1: then I'll check in on email, and then I'll go back.

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Speaker 1: But it can just be really helpful to get creative.

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Speaker 1: Just still think, how can I help myself do this

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Speaker 1: in a realistic way. We're not trying to be naive,

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Speaker 1: but in a realistic way to help us balance being responsive.

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Speaker 1: But also, your value is more than your responsiveness at

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Speaker 1: your job. Your value is in bringing smart, creative strategy

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Speaker 1: to the table, and you need heads down time to

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Speaker 1: do that, and so we're trying to find a balance

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Speaker 1: to allow you to protect time to do that. And

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Speaker 1: again in a realistic way.

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Speaker 3: Of course, as you're talking, I'm just thinking, yeah, this

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Speaker 3: is why when I'm on call and I'm getting paid

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00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 3: by the hospital while I'm seeing patients and clinic, it's

437
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,199
Speaker 3: literally the worst form of torture because I'm like, I

438
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 3: can't take away from this person.

439
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: I'm like doing deep.

440
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 3: Work here and you're asking me to respond to something

441
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 3: urgent at the same time, And like, why am I

442
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 3: in this situation? Nothing makes me more frustrated And I

443
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 3: have no solution for that except that we try to

444
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 3: minimize it as.

445
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: Much as we can.

446
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know what, actually, I'm thinking through this,

447
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 3: I could probably put in a way message that's like

448
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: I will spawn in thirty minutes. Here's my cell phone number,

449
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 3: call me, and that should be enough time to get

450
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 3: through pretty much most clinical appointments. So I mean, even

451
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 3: that probably could have some very polite boundaries that around it.

452
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 1: So yeah, but it's a good point. It's like we

453
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 1: can't be both trying to do deep work and we're

454
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: sting interruption all the time. It's just and so some

455
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: situations like that one, I like the creative solutions just

456
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: for anyone listening. Sometimes you're limited in what you can control,

457
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: in which case we do the best we can. But

458
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: in others it's like, yeah, are there ways to try

459
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 1: and break these apart, schedule them separately, things like that. Again,

460
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 1: can't control everything, but we can control I think more

461
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: than we sometimes think we can. And I say that

462
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: not in a victim blaming way, Like I love realizing

463
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: when something is my fault because then I'm like, well

464
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: then I can fix it next timeline. There's so much

465
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: out of our control. We got to take the things

466
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 1: that are in our control and we can.

467
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: Totally all right, Well, speaking of not in our control

468
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 3: and maybe self interruptions email, that is something that a

469
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 3: lot of people, I'll go with, that's an enormous time

470
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 3: suck in terms of also just feeling a lot of

471
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 3: uncertainty about what the expectations are around response time or

472
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: there are some scenarios where people really do believe that

473
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: there are emails that they get that need that moment

474
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 3: to moment response time, and I think law is a

475
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 3: very common kind of area where that can come up.

476
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 3: So do you have certain things that you tend to

477
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 3: coach people around email or batching it or protecting themselves

478
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 3: from it at least for periods of the day.

479
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a lot. So this is such

480
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: a pain point and Candily, when I was practicing, it

481
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 1: was my biggest stressor too. Emails just it's a wildcard

482
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 1: of what's coming in and who thinks they have a

483
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: fire it might not be a fire, but they make

484
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: it's contagious when someone's screaming fire. So a couple of

485
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: different things. One I do like, blocking time to process

486
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: email does not mean that you can't look at email

487
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 1: the rest of the day. That was not realistic for

488
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: me as an attorney, so I just throw that out

489
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: there that But I want to be realistic here. If

490
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: you need to monitor email, you might at or email,

491
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: But if you know you have protected time to process email,

492
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: then it's you can more easily be like, is this

493
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: a fire? Can it wait? Is this a fire? Can

494
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: it wait? And if it can wait till processing time, great.

495
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: I also think it's important because the average American worker

496
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: spends like at least two point six hours in email

497
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: every day. It's probably more. I think that was like

498
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: a twenty twelve McKenzie study, so I'm sure it's tripled

499
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: by now. And if you create a beautiful let's say

500
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: you work eight hours, beautiful plan of eight hours of

501
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: meetings and tasks, but you don't factor in the three

502
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: hours of email you have to process, that's going to

503
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: be a losing plan every single day. So blocking it

504
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: is partly just helpful to protect sometime and not fill

505
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: it up with other plans. And then again, if you

506
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: need to monitor email, fine, but it's easier to let

507
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: it go. I often found I used to pounce on

508
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: email and feel like I had to respond because I thought,

509
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: if I don't respond now, I'm gonna forget. And if

510
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: I have time protected later to process and actually be

511
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: responding to people substantively, then I just my anxiety would

512
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: let it go a little bit more because I had

513
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: that time. What I will also say on that front

514
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: is I'm from Minnesota, people pleaser. I feel like I

515
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: should respond or not anymore as much. But when I

516
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: was younger, I really felt like I needed to respond

517
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: quickly to people. And so you don't do this for everybody.

518
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: But if your bosses, important clients, whoever it might be,

519
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: if they send you an email and you're like, you

520
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: feel that like I must respond right now is responding

521
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: but not responding in substance, responding and saying thank you

522
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: so much. I will get on this as soon as

523
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: I can. I aim to have a response to you

524
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: in forty eight hours. Whatever you want, however you want

525
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: to frame it. If you can stay away from giving

526
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: a time, go for it. Do that but if it

527
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: makes you feel better, to each their own. But I

528
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: think that helped me and my people pleaser tendencies to respond, acknowledge, receipt,

529
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: tell them I'm on it, but not drop everything to respond,

530
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: because often we're like, it'll take me fifteen minutes, and

531
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: then forty five minutes you're still typing away and researching

532
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: things for it. So that balance was really nice for

533
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: me to be able to just set by that people

534
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: please reside on me, but not derail my plans entirely

535
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: as well.

536
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: That makes sense, And I will say I have found

537
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 3: over the years that overly quick responses just invite more emails. Yes, yes,

538
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: And that's not necessarily a good thing. And not everybody

539
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 3: you work with actually wants to like, not everyone wants

540
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: to move that quickly. So sometimes like a little slack

541
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 3: in the and I don't mean slack isn't slack, I

542
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 3: mean slack in the line of the back and forth

543
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 3: can be healthy. It gives people time to think you

544
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: might get other information, and I don't mean waiting a

545
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: rude amount of time.

546
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you get one more thing that you're reminded

547
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: me of when you said that, is I had this

548
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: client this is a client's idea. I think it's brilliant.

549
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: Any email she sent after three pm, she schedules sent

550
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: for the morning because she's like, I don't want their

551
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: response tonight. I don't want that boomerang response. I just

552
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: thought that. I was like, how smart, because I always

553
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: think of schedule. Sen is like, you want flexibility, you

554
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: could take off for early and are working later, and

555
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: you want to schedule send. Great. But I just thought

556
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: it was so great three pm on we're just schedules

557
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: send everything.

558
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: And you might get like fresher, nicer responses in the

559
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: morning anyway, So I think that could do triple duty. Yep,

560
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 3: all right, We're going to take another break and then

561
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: I have a couple of like very common challenges that

562
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: we will talk about. All Right, we are back, and

563
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: another thing I know that has I think this unexpectedly

564
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: came up in your work, Kelly. I'll that you can

565
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong, But I have heard through

566
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 3: the grapevine and through you that your work has done

567
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 3: amazing things for some couples in terms of making transparent

568
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: what the workload is for each parent, including the mental load,

569
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 3: and maybe causing some fairly dramatic shifts over the years

570
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 3: and some couples, why would that be and can you

571
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: tell us about it?

572
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you're totally right that it was a surprise

573
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: to me. I remember I have this feedback form at

574
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: the end and ask some questions in one like what's

575
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: I think you're most significant when or something like that,

576
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: And this was in the beginning. I had three responses

577
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: pretty quickly of my partner, my partner and I have

578
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: a better relationship now, and I was like, wow, I

579
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: really approached it from a more mostly a career standpoint

580
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: and it was really interesting to hear that. I think

581
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: what it is. So there's this great I was listening

582
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: to a podcast by Eve Rodsky, who does fair play

583
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: and all of that, and I believe it was her,

584
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: and I'm going to butcher this, but she was talking

585
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: about how if you interview heterosexual couples, the woman thinks

586
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: she's doing the majority of the work. Same couple, the

587
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: man thinks he's doing the majority of the work. And

588
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: I believe it was her, And again I'm butchering this,

589
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: but I think her statement was is men see these

590
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: are my words like a pond amount of work, and

591
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: they see themselves doing half of it, and they're like,

592
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: I'm doing half the work, and they're not aware that

593
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: there's actually an ocean of work that's being done and

594
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: what they're doing is like a drop in that. And

595
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: so for me the bridge to get there and I

596
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: know E'verodsky thinks this too. I'm not trying to act

597
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: like obviously fair play works for a ton of people.

598
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: To me, the bridge that you need to cross is

599
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: educating them about the ocean and being specific about what

600
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: all the work is, and also getting clear for yourself

601
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: on that so that you can not only help educate

602
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: but then also ask for what you don't want to do,

603
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: like if you're going to get help, like get the

604
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: stuff you hate doing off your blight, and if you can't,

605
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: and sometimes that works out really well. And so I

606
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: will say that, so on the Bright Method in the

607
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: first chapter, what we do is get clear on all

608
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: the invisible to do is that you're doing, including all

609
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: that home stuff. And most of the women are like,

610
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: holy moly, now I understand why I'm so overwhelmed. And

611
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: that is really important because if you're not aware of

612
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: everything's on your plate, the other people in your life

613
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 1: at home or at work are not either. And we

614
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: can get into the debates of like the principle of

615
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: like whether women should have to educate and all this

616
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But I'm realist, I want you to

617
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: get the support. We're going to put that to the side.

618
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: Part of the bright method is making visual and time

619
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: to time all the things that you're doing. And I

620
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: think there's real power both for yourself, as I said,

621
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: to like understand that and ask for what you want,

622
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 1: but also to be able to show that to your partner.

623
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: Like I had a woman be like, I don't want

624
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: to overwhelm my partner by showing them this, and I

625
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: was like overwhelm them, like over here, the whow doing it?

626
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah?

627
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: And this really I mean, I don't want to say

628
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: across the board, everyone's relationship is different everything. But I

629
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: recently had a client email me and she was like,

630
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: I was doing my weekly planning session, so just had

631
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: it up at kids sport thing and her husband was

632
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: sitting next to her. They didn't even talk about it,

633
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: but he's like seeing her calendar throughout all this, And

634
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: a couple days later something happened. There was a big

635
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: curveball that would take like an hour and a half

636
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: to deal with. And he jumped up and was like,

637
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: I will handle it. I saw your calendar. You've got

638
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: too much going on this week. And she was like,

639
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: I cannot explain what a point of content this has been.

640
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: For years of him understanding everything I do and just

641
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: visually seeing it got him there. That to me is

642
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: such a powerful moment of like really communicating how much

643
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: you're doing, showing how much you're doing, making it visual.

644
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: And I will say again, I'm married to any our physician.

645
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: He can't do a lot on certain days. He does

646
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: a ton when he's around. I'm not saying that, but

647
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: if he's working five nights in a row, that whole

648
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: week is like on me. But at the same time,

649
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: like he is very appreciative, like he because of that,

650
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: because he can see how much I'm doing and he

651
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: comes home from like a twelve hour shift and it's like,

652
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: thanks for holding it down. And that goes far. Even

653
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: though yes, I want him to share and we're making

654
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: moves to bring him down so that he can do

655
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: more at home. I'm not saying that's it the end

656
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: all be all, but it's very good for our marriage

657
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: that I feel the respect goes both ways on what

658
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: we're doing, and that's huge.

659
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: That's so funny. We talk a lot about like planning

660
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 3: privilege and how women end up doing.

661
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: More of it.

662
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: But I agree with you that the answer is isn't

663
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: always that the man takes over half the planning. I mean,

664
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: I don't think that's realistic for many couples. But that appreciation,

665
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 3: that understanding that this was work that took up my

666
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: time and my emotional load, and that it's benefiting everyone.

667
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: I agree, it goes so far. It goes so far,

668
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: so yeah, go ahead.

669
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: Also, what I would say is I agree with you, like,

670
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: at least in my one relationship, I just think of

671
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: things that my husband doesn't. I could work on training

672
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: him more to do that. But at the same time,

673
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: again he's not around that much. I'm like, well, I

674
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: gotta do it anyway. I got to plan my life

675
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: as if he's not around, and when he's around it's

676
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: like a cherry on top. But what I will say

677
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: is I factor that admin work into our division of labor,

678
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: so when he is around, he's doing more pickups as

679
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: in drop offs. We're not then being like, okay, you're

680
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: around now will divide it up evenly. I'm like, no,

681
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: you're doing them all because I'm doing all this admin stuff,

682
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: the quarterbacking of our home. So when it comes to

683
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: the physical things like pickups and drop offs and cooking,

684
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: he does. He cooks every dinner when he's around and

685
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: things like that. Because it's like that's the divvy of labor.

686
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: Kelly just sounds like you're the manager and he's the maker.

687
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: I do a lot of making also funnies around. But

688
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: it's just I think what's hard is I see a

689
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: lot of women do all the mental side and then

690
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: divvy up all the physical things evenly, And I'm like, well,

691
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: that means you're doing way more, so why not share

692
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: that more? And if you can communicate that and show

693
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: why that makes sense, it really really helps as well.

694
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: Super interesting and I think I actually think that gets

695
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: even more the older the kids get, like more of

696
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: it becomes the manager half. Yeah, and it can become

697
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: more dangerously invisible as well.

698
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point.

699
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: Well, tell everybody if they are interested in getting the

700
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: full training and understanding how to use your methods, how

701
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 3: do you teach these courses? And will there ever be

702
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: a Bright Method live because I think that would be

703
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: so fun.

704
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: It would be really fun. It would be really fun.

705
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: I've thought about doing like live events, probably more for

706
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: the alumna of like who've gone through it, but yes,

707
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: So what I do is I teach the Bright Method

708
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: program through a ten week course. It is through pre

709
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: recorded video lessons, but emails support throughout, so you get

710
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: one on one email support with me. I think there's

711
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: a lot of benefit of personal tailoring, but then also

712
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: some time management can get weirdly personal in private, and

713
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: so it's just nice to have like some privacy there.

714
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: In addition, once you're in chapter three of the program,

715
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: there are group calls and so that's the really like

716
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: group dynamic. And then there's like a written community thing

717
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: as well, like a Facebook group, but not on Facebook.

718
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: But it's really wonderful because it's meeting incredible women who

719
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: now also start speaking the same time management language. But

720
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: a lot of this is very tailorable to you, and

721
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: so it's nice to also talk to other women who

722
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: might also be physician. You know, I come from the

723
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: legal background, but if you want to talk to someone

724
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 1: more in corporate sometimes it can be helpful to talk

725
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: to me, but it also can be helpful to talk

726
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: to other women in that environment, so that part is

727
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: really really fun. I run it from September through enrollment

728
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: closes in March, and then we close out at the

729
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: end of May, and so summers. I just find most

730
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: people want to enjoy the summer, but we'll be back

731
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: in it in the fall and if people are interested,

732
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: I have a three like a free three day program

733
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: that you can find at Kelley Nolan dot com slash

734
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: Refresh And again, I just think time management is personal.

735
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: I don't think everyone should be managing their time like

736
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: I do. Like I just think if it works, it's

737
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: worked for me, it works for other women, and so

738
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: I like to throw it out there and you can

739
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: kind of kick give it what does it kick the

740
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: tires and see if it works for you.

741
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 3: I love it. So we'll definitely include that link in

742
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: our show notes and before we go, And is that

743
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 3: where they can find you as well? You have a podcast,

744
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: du don't forget your past.

745
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm very active on Instagram. It's at I think

746
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: if you search Kelly Nolan you'll find me. And then

747
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: I do have the right Method podcast. I was on

748
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: a hiatus but I'm back. So yes, I have a

749
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: podcast that comes out every Monday, and we nerd out

750
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: on this stuff too, and Sarah's been on it.

751
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I had a lot of fun. So Love of

752
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: the Week, we cannot forget that. I've been forget that

753
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: in some of my interviews. Laura is like, come on

754
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: Love of the Week with the program mine is I

755
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: was due end first to give you a chance to

756
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: remember yours and everything. Trader Joe's has this Patislov which

757
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 3: is a Turkish brand Dubai chocolate for like three ninety

758
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: nine and it's I really like it. I mean, du

759
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: Bui chocolate is weirdly expensive, like I've been noticing. The

760
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: lint ones are like fifteen dollars, Like I don't know.

761
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe they're really good.

762
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 3: Actually I should do a head to head now that

763
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: I'm saying this, but I mean the TJ's one's pretty good.

764
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 3: I see them with the register and I'm like, all,

765
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: buy four, and then I replaced them when I go

766
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: back there. So that is my Love of the Week.

767
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: What about you? Definitely check it out And mine is

768
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: the same theme as yours is pre chopped vegetables. I

769
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 1: think I always was like, Oh, I don't know, they're

770
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: like so much more expensive than you can't compare the

771
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: cost of the pre chop with the not pre chopped.

772
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: You have to think through the effort doing it. And

773
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: if you are like me, I'm still learning how to

774
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: cook as a forty one year old, I'm actually heading

775
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: my stride for the first time after many resolutions to

776
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: become a cook, finally getting there. And part of it

777
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: is buying pre chop vegetables because I used to not

778
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: and then they would all just go bad and I

779
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: would end up throwing out the produce. And buying pre

780
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: chop it saves me so much time, probably an er

781
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: visit with chopping, especially things like butternut squash. I'm like, a, yeah,

782
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: how do I chop butter swash? I can buy that

783
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: pre chopped, and I can do that and now I

784
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: can like add it to my breakfast and it's all

785
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: done and it's all ready to go. And so that

786
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: is my love of the week. It took everything down

787
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: to probably half an hour baking and it is wonderful.

788
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: I love it.

789
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for coming on, Kelly. This

790
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 3: is a blast.

791
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

792
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: Well we are back that was great hearing from Kelly Nolan,

793
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: time management expert, creator of the Bright Method and Sarah's

794
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: good friend and mentor and the course creating department. So

795
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: Sarah question this week, how do you get little kids

796
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: to go to bed early when it is light out

797
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: late as it is in the northern hemisphere, as we

798
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 2: are only a few weeks past the solstice here.

799
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually found it. I had to go and

800
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 3: delve into exactly like what you are facing versus what

801
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: I am facing, because I'm like, I don't feel like

802
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: ours is quite as dramatic, and it's pretty different when

803
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 3: you compare Florida to Philadelphia. We have about a thirteen

804
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 3: point seventy five hour day in the peak of summer

805
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: and you have a fifteen hour day, So your sun

806
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 3: is rising at five point thirty. Which I know that

807
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 3: because when we went to Williamstown around this time of year,

808
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 3: mid June, I was shocked to be like, it is

809
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: bright daylight and it is in the fives. We do

810
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: not have that here, and I kind of forgot it

811
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 3: was a thing. And so I guess I'm saying that

812
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: there is some geographical variation. So if you're listening to

813
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: this from LA and you're like, I don't really get this.

814
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: There may be a reason.

815
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: That said, definitely, I find that having the kids be

816
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: as active during the day as possible really helps to

817
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: not prevent them from being tired just because there's a

818
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: little bit of light still out there. Keeping the routine

819
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 3: the same if you want to keep the bedtime somewhat

820
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 3: the same, and that is an if. I mean sometimes

821
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: you might end up wanting to shift things a little

822
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 3: bit later, depending on what your camp situation or summer

823
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: situation is, but just keeping that environmental very favorable, very consistent,

824
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: And then I'll have you talk about trying to get

825
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: the room to be dark, which yeah, definitely helps.

826
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, if you ever go travel in like northern Europe,

827
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: especially in the summer, most of the hotels have pretty

828
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: intense blackout shades, and if you do not avail yourself

829
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: of the you're going to deeply regret it. Come three

830
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning when you are wide awake, I

831
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: mean maybe jet lag too, but it will be bright

832
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: as day, very very early in the morning. And I've

833
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 2: sort of experienced this, so I mean, obviously we put

834
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: heavy blackout shades on Henry's windows. They sort of work.

835
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's maybe it's just some little kids

836
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: just get up early sometimes for no apparent reason. He

837
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: was up at like five forty five this morning. His

838
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: room was dark. Mine was not. I popped up awake

839
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: at like five this morning, and I could not get

840
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: back to sleep. Some days I do, like I was

841
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: up at five thirty some morning this week, and I

842
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: managed to go back to sleep until six thirty. But

843
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: maybe we just have sort of a seasonal shift in

844
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: our sleep to a degree that you get a little

845
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: bit less in the summer, get a bit more in

846
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 2: the winter. You can kind of embrace that. I think

847
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: we've decided that we're going to probably allow for a

848
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: slightly later bedtime in the summer. We're recording this just

849
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: as school is ending, so it's not going to be

850
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: the exact same as it was. Do we stay up

851
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 2: a little bit later, But yeah, I would try keeping

852
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: the kids active, putting the blackout shades in and then

853
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 2: moving them into that room with the blackout shades sort

854
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: of at the time you want them to be thinking

855
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: about getting tired and getting ready for bed, because if

856
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: they can see it's right out. The queue is just

857
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: not there, it's harder to convince them that the party

858
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: isn't still going. So yes, maybe the best of a

859
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: longer story hours. Yes, yes, blackout shades in the bathroom

860
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: where they're having their bath like anything you could do

861
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: to keep that part of the world a little bit darker.

862
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: It makes sense, all right, all right, well, this has

863
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: been best of both worlds. Sarah was interviewing Kelly Nolan.

864
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 2: We will be back next week with more on making

865
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: work and life fit together.

866
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

867
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

868
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: and you can.

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Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

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Speaker 2: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us

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Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together.