WEBVTT - Kal Penn 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:02.880 I've lived at l A off and on. I went 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.240 to undergrad there and then stayed for like ten years. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.600 But this past spring I was working there and it's 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.000 the first time I lived by the beach. I grabbed 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.120 an Airbnb in Venice, and I will never not live 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.279 close to the beach. When I'm back in l A. 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.640 It was gorgeous. I was with some Caribbean friends in 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.439 New York. You know, We've been walking around and looking 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.240 on the things, and it was amazing and the whole thing. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.360 And then we finally got to the Hudson and they 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.120 suddenly relaxed and they were like, thank God, like we 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.040 didn't know where the city breathed. I was like, I 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:45.680 gotta yeah, hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome to Many Questions, 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:50.560 Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question. It was originally 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.360 a nineteenth century harl game where players would ask each 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.960 other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the other players 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:03.040 true nature. It's just scientific method really. In asking different 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.080 people the same set of questions, you can make observations 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.560 about which truths appeared to be universal. I love this discipline, 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.600 and it made me wonder, what if these questions were 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.360 just the jumping off point. What greater depths would be 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.360 revealed if I asked these questions as conversation starters with 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:24.480 thought leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. So 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.400 I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own seven 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.760 questions that I personally think a pertinent to a person's story. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.240 They are when and where were you happiest? What is 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.679 the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.440 or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would you 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.560 most like answered, What person, place, or experience has shaped 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.320 you the most? What would be your last meal? And 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.000 can you tell me something in your life that's grown 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.400 out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a group 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.960 of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored and 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.920 humbled to have the chance to engage with. You may 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.120 not hear their answers to all seven of these questions. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.560 We've whittled it down to which questions felt closest to 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:12.839 their experience or the most surprising, or created the most 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:18.440 fertile ground to connect. My guest today is the actor, author, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.640 and former OBAMA staff member cal pan Cal is an 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:27.000 extraordinary mix of creative talent, and intellectual acuity, which don't 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.320 always go hand in hand in my business. A native 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.600 of New Jersey and as keenly political as he is creative, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.400 Cal has been a standard bearer for actors of Southeast 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.080 Asian heritage, bursting onto our screens with John Show in 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.200 the Harold and Kumar series. And his experience of casual, 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.520 systemic racism in Hollywood and how that is changing is 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.560 so clearly and candidly examined in our interview. Amongst many 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.359 other things, I will also forever hold close the idea 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.119 that for Cal, when I asked in what relationship, real 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.320 or fictionalized, defines love for him, he said the Muppets. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.400 I hope you really enjoy this conversation as much as 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:17.200 I did. So, now, what person, place, or experience most 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.320 altered your life? I was gonna say, I will say 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.079 my grandparents, And I want to define that altering does 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.520 not imply that my life was going in one direction 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.160 and then it changed course. So I would say maybe 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.160 impacted because they so I got to know all four 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.040 grandparents when I was a kid. But the stories they 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.680 would they would tell us my grandparents, especially on my 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.800 mom's side, would talk about how they marched with Gandhi 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.920 and that those were the stories. So it was stories 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.960 like about literally, you know, you're they're trying to get 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.440 you to eat your vegetables. And so Grandpa's talking about 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.600 getting thrown in jail and beaten by British soldiers for 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.360 standing up for his human rights. And of course the 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.000 eight year old you was like, there he goes again, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:14.160 Grandpa with another Gandhy story. So rolling eye, rolling story. 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.919 I'm this like American kid born and raised in the 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.960 suburbs of New York City, and I'm like, here we go. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.760 But of course then when you understand as a kid, 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.560 you know, I think for me it was in sixth grade. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.919 There was a very small section in our history book 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.800 that tied Gandhi a non violence of the disobedience to 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:37.160 Dr King. So you connected it, you connected it to like, yes, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:38.720 they were still alive at that point. So I had 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.200 the chance to ask my grandparents questions. And my one 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.159 grandmother in particular didn't speak any English. So one of 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.480 the reasons that I am bilingual and fluently so is 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.000 because in order to communicate with her, I had to 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.840 learn a language called I wouldn't say it changed the 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.279 course of my life, but it offered perspective in a 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.600 certain type of grounding where recognizing the things like this 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.080 are not things that are in ancient history, but happened 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.120 to and have happened to, and involve our relatives, people 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.720 we've met and known and loved in our lifetimes, and 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.560 then the idea of and folks who are multi lingual 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.360 will will know this. I'm so grateful because Lord knows, 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.200 my high school French didn't turn out too hot. So 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.400 I'm very grateful for my grandparents being multi lingual because 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.599 it just offered a perspective on getting to know people 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:28.800 and being able to travel, and being able to travel 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.520 in another language that I don't think I would have 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:37.159 had the exposure to otherwise. Is the most spoken language 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:41.960 in India. I think it's something like they're they're sixty 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:47.080 or eighty million speakers. Because there are a billion people, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:52.120 it makes it. Yeah, it's a it's a minority language. Regionally, 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:57.080 it's a smaller language, but by global standards, it's pretty big. Yeah, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.800 I mean more than more than how many people are 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.719 in England. Yeah, I mean, goodness, Wow, I love the 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.200 e learned a language to be able to communicate with 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:11.440 your your grandma, Like, that's really, that's really wonderful. When 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.160 was the last time, when was the most recent time 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.760 that you use your good rat There's a movie on Netflix, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.920 I think it's Netflix called Wrong Side Raju and it's 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.920 in good and I was like thumbing through. I was like, 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.000 wonder if they have any good language content, and they 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.440 did so I watched it and it was wonderful. Oh 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.120 my god, how brittains. Then maybe I will go and 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:42.839 check it out. The name again, Wrong Side Raju's okay? Good? 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.719 Will you tell me where and when you were happiest 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.679 in your life? Yes? And I was trying to think 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.640 about this. I had wished when I was thinking about 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.240 this answer, I was like, so, I'm a big astronomy nerd, 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.360 and I was like, I wish I had the hundred 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.600 million dollars to go into space talking about talking about 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.040 things that are morally questionable. By the way, forty five 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.520 minutes and you're not even in space, because he wasn't 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.600 in space. He was literally not in space. He was 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.360 just up high in the sky the wade. You are. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.360 I annoyed about this, so annoyed by how much weightless 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:28.520 sure space? Not really you weren't really in deep space. Yeah, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.520 so I was gonna I was gonna say I wish 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:31.920 I wish I'd done one of those. It would have 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.200 been my easy answer for me. I feel like part 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.960 of it in terms of, like, you know, where have 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.160 I been happiest. There was a work experience that I 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.000 had on a film called The Namesake, which is based 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.280 on a novel written by a wonderful author named jimpola 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.720 Here she won the Pulletzer for her first book, The 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.320 Interpreter of Melodies, and the film I had the chance 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.480 to play the one of the leads in the film 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.800 was directed by a woman named Mary, and I are 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.000 who she's InCred of all. She's amazing and she was 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.240 a role model of mine from the time I was 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.480 a kid. She's actually one of the reasons I decided 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.240 to become an actor because when I was a kid, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:13.400 she had this movie come out called Mississippi Massala. I remember, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:18.760 my god, it was incredible, the hottest, most beautiful, amazing movie. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.960 And for folks I don't know Sta Childrey, Denzel Washington 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.160 and uh And the first time that you know, the 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.120 thirteen or fourteen year old me had seen characters on 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.240 screen who looked like me, who weren't played by people 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:36.640 in brown face or cartoon characters. My god, that was 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.440 how I wanted to look more than any other. I 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.240 mean once when I was a kid, it was Sigourney 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:42.960 Weaver because there was no one else that had the 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.920 same hair as I did. But Surrita in that film 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.600 was the most my It was my epitome of female beauty. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.800 Oh wow. Basically walking out of that theater, I thought, 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.440 oh wow, these are these are families or characters that 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.240 that are like mine. And they're in addition to just 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.320 the the feeling of like why do I feel this way? 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.400 And and the characters also weren't one note right. They 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.560 were flawed, and they made mistakes, and they were racist, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.720 and they had sex, and they all of the beautiful 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.120 and tragic things that happen in life were happening to 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.319 these characters. So it was one of those things where 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.040 I thought, well, if if this, if these women can 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:21.640 do it, then maybe it's something I can do as well. 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.920 And then in college, I remember waiting for hours there 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.679 was an announcement that Mire and I are was going 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.079 to speak on campus, and I went. It was I 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.520 think it was like a seven pm start time, and 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.720 I must have showed up at like three pm, and 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.520 I waited in line with my head shot. I was like, Okay, 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.240 I feel like if I sit in the front row 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.360 it's too eager. But if I sit like two rows back, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.400 then I can get her my head shot at the end. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.520 And I loved, you know, I loved her her conversation. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.439 And at the very end I managed to kind of 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.559 get up to her and handed her my head shot 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.800 and she was very polite. She said, oh, how how lovely, 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:00.680 and that was obviously you don't from people when you 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.600 bombard them that way. Um. But that was in college, 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.719 and then two thousand and five or six, I had 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.839 the chance to work on the namesake. And I will 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:10.800 tell you I only had the chance to work on 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:16.280 the namesake because Mira's then fourteen year old son, Zaran, 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.719 was a huge fan of the Harold and Kamar Go 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.559 to White Castle film, and he apparently had shown her 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.280 the a trailer or a couple of clips from the 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.360 movie to say, hey, cal Penn would be perfect as 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.599 go Gol, the title character or the lead character in 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.680 the film, and Mira apparently saw this like silly stoner 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.240 movie and was like, this is obviously not the guy. 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.160 But I had written her a letter asking to audition 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.240 for the film because I heard she was casting it, 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.600 and I never heard back, and so I found out 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.719 that the reason that I was finally allowed audition was 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.439 because of her son. So basically he convinced her to 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.959 let me audition. Now, Harold and Kumar, I think one 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.880 of the reasons that I had tipped my myself or 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.360 the edge was I was one of the few South 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.240 Asian actors in those days who had a film credit 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.560 on his resume because of a comedy I did in 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.600 like two thousand and two thousand and one called Van 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:15.480 Wilder with Ryan Reynolds. His first was his first big thing, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.120 and the name of the character was taj Mahal that 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.000 I played like it was this it was I had 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.600 a great I mean I I have a book that 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:28.160 recently came out where I talked about the whole story 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.400 about getting cast in it and and how gracious by 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.960 the way both Ryan and Terry Reid were. But to 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.440 go from like that first job where you're an actor, 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.439 you take what you're gonna get right and you build 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.360 your resume from it. But the problematic nature of playing 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.200 a guy named taj Mahal, to that leading to the 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.480 Harold and Kumar movies, to that then leading to the Namesake, 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:48.440 where I get to work with a woman who is 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.040 one of the reasons that I decided to be an 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.400 actor to begin with, and then starting on that project 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.079 and realizing it was, especially in two thousand five, guys 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.120 who look like me don't get to do literary adaptations 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.080 that are that are beautiful dramas. You're right, because now 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.760 you know, I look at I don't know, Depitel, that's 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.320 like just total movie stars. But in two thousand five, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.320 you're right, Yeah, you were so for all those reasons. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.160 When you say when were you most happiest? I was like, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.520 isn't a cop out to mention something work related? And 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.960 I thought, you know, it's not, because the whole reason 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.840 we love art and storytelling sometimes it's tied into so 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.640 much more, including the fourteen year old me and the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.480 twenty six year old me and then the twenty eight 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.480 year old me, and you know, it's just at every 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.040 iteration when there's something like that that inspires you, and 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:37.760 then you have the chance to work with those people. 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.960 I can't even describe how content I was and how 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.240 much I felt like I was able to excel in 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.320 my craft during that period of time. I completely understand that, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.160 and I think it's so connected. And also, your desire 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.240 was the straight shot. Everything else was just constantly bisecting 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.719 the straight shot of your kind of intention. But the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.880 fact that it does, it doesn't necessarily come in the 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.720 way that you thought it should. It didn't. You know, 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.680 maybe you thought that you would hand her your head 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.280 shot and it would all sort of happen then, and 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.520 it's like, no, and actually it's still not going to 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.640 happen in a super competitive audition process. But then a 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.520 fourteen year old kid who's seen this movie, I love 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:22.240 it when happiness is genuinely in the gray areas. It's 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.120 not in the it's often not in the way in 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.440 which we divine it should be. Yeah, yeah, that's right. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.800 How amazing. Also, the fact that Mirror and I would 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:37.680 be this continuous creative punctuation through your story, I think 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.320 that's really I think that's really amazing. I'm also I 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.360 cannot believe that the character in Van Wilder was called 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.280 I don't. I don't think I'm ever going to get 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.200 over that. It's shocking. It is absolutely shocking that that 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.240 was only that was that was two thousand five, Like, 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:54.920 it's not that, I mean, that's not that long ago. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.800 Two thou Well, I'll one up you if you're if 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.320 you're surprised by that, because you're ready. It wasn't that 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.800 long ago. I think every actor goes through this in 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.880 the appropriate comparison. But you know, sometimes you audition for 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.920 stuff and you you want to know if you're gonna 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.559 get it, and you're not sure if you're gonna take it, 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:11.640 and so this was one of those things where I 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.480 was like, let me just see because I know I'm 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.080 a I'm a I'm an aspiring actor. At that point, 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:17.720 I was like, let me see if I get this job, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.640 because I need a credit on my resume. In the realities, 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.960 I know, I know what people think I look like, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.120 and so if I'm going to get credits on my resume, 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.040 I'm gonna probably have to do some of these types 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.440 of of parts. And so I remember going back for 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.720 callbacks and I knew what the last callback. I was 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.920 told it's between you and another guy, and I didn't 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.520 know who he was. And the issue with diversities, of course, 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.240 it's never a question of there aren't enough actors. It's 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.280 you know, everybody, there's so many talented actors to choose from. 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.160 And so I walk into the room and the other 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.200 guy had arrived before me, and it was a white 0:14:50.280 --> 0:15:00.920 dude in brown face. I'm not kidding, and any any um, 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.040 any question that I had about whether I was going 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.200 to take the part if I got it, all went 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.200 out the window because I saw this dude sitting there 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.800 and I was like, oh, yeah, no, you're not allowed 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.640 to play this. You can play Brandon from Iowa all 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.800 you want, because you're gonna get tons of aliens or 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.760 stuff like that. And it made the decision a lot 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.200 easier because I thought, no, so the choices like this 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.120 dude gets a credit on his resume or I do. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.800 And I don't know how your approaches, but I rarely 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.840 have beef with other actors in any situation, especially even 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.640 a situation like this, because I understand the desperation of 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.600 wanting a job and how competitive the field is. So 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.680 I was more curious. I was like, Okay, here's the deal. 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.640 My god, did this guy he like, did his agent 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.280 tell him to paint his face or did he decide 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.840 to do that on his own. Number two, it's a callback. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.880 Had he painted his face before and everyone was cool 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.880 with that? Number Three? Where did he do it? Did 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.600 he paint his face at home? If so, did it 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.880 increase his chances of getting pulled over by the car? 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.720 Or did he come to the audition and then paying 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.160 his face in the bathroom? That was all the stuff. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.080 I was so fascinated. I'm just I know, and I 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.120 know that you're you're laughing and you're brilliant and you 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.520 have long metabolized this. But it's like the awful sort 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:20.400 of passive sexual assaults that happen on female actors all 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:22.720 the time, and how one just sort of metabolized and 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.080 it becomes part of your narrative. But it's only like 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.360 when I tell that story people, I think they're going 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.640 to laugh or they're like, oh my goodness, they don't, 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.440 and like hearing you, hearing you tell that story, like 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:34.840 of what of what that must have been like like 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:40.640 walking into I just I'm I'm I'm so, I'm so shocked. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.080 And I'm also it makes where we are now in 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.160 terms of this business that we're in, because I know 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.440 it is really local to what is happening in Hollywood, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:54.720 where we are seeing significant change and inclusion is actively 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.760 being pursued, that I sort of feel like perhaps the 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.920 boat is turning, but still you you're so good humored 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.920 about something that is I thought that didn't happen after 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.680 Fisher Stevens like brown based in Short Search, which is 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:12.960 still one of the most insane things I've ever seen 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.720 in my life. Like now to watch that film, it's yeah, no, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.359 it still happens. I mean, look, the reason I laugh 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.240 about it, the reason that I in in the book 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.520 and especially in the audiobook because I read it myself 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.439 for this particular reason is like, you know, the the 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.840 one of the many reasons that I laugh about things 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.040 like that, not that it doesn't happen. It happened. As 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.600 recently is the live action Aladdin, where a lot of 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.119 extras were painted apparently, and Disney, who I happily have 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.840 worked for and hope to continue to work for, I 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.560 think their their statement was something like, well, it wasn't 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.920 possible to hire enough brown background actors, and they were 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.480 they were shooting in fucking London. I mean, come on, really, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.280 that's not what the real answer to that is. We 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:57.800 didn't want to invest the financial resources in getting them all. 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.080 It's not that they don't exist. Are you gonna have 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:01.720 to work a tiny bit harder to find them? Maybe? 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.119 And there were there were some lively conversations about it 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.760 where I think, thankfully, like you had mentioned, people within 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.520 the industry, we're like, oh, yeah, that's not a thing. 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.080 That's cool. We shouldn't. We shouldn't. We can we can 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.879 do better, right collect, we can better. But the biggest 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:15.679 reason I laugh about telling those stories is I'm so 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.240 happy with being able to turn on the TV today 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.560 and just seeing so much diversity in terms of content. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.320 And I don't even just mean the ethnic or gender diversity. 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.040 I'm talking like you turn on some of these shows 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.800 and it's stuff that I couldn't have conceived of, would 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.920 would even be a show ten years ago, or something, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.480 you know, something like never have I ever write so 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.680 many South Asian characters of a different generation like two 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.120 below mine. I never would have thought that we'd ever 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.040 see something like that. So it's I tell those stories 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.479 in a good natured way, I think, because I'm so 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.080 happy with how much our industry has progressed, And to 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.960 your point, there's obviously so much more work that still 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.080 needs to be done. But it's a nice I think 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.560 it's a nice moment in the last few years. Yeah, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.960 I also think that I've realized that the way in 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.280 which people metabolize hard conversations is often when there is 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.760 and even though it seems to fall on the shoulder 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.320 of the person to whom that bad ship has happened, 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.040 but when you being able to tell it, tell that 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:22.720 story in such an erudite, funny, clever way. It's like, 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.119 but again, I find that awful because I'm like, oh, well, 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.240 you know, Cal's giving me permission to laugh and be 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.439 okay with this. You should laugh. Yeah, I feel like 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.199 it is it is better to laugh than to feel 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.360 still in a ditch around that stuff. And I laugh 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:42.520 telling the stories of being aggressed upon by revolting casting directors, 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.159 directors and whomever it was. Yeah, your point is so 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.680 well taken because it reminds me of I think it's 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:53.320 it's difficult if if these conversations are overly sanitized, it's 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.480 difficult to explain, Like I remember Twitter, By the way, 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.040 Twitter mentions obviously are not a good barometer on taking 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.439 the temperature on anything, but but whether it's whether it's 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.639 Twitter or people who will actually have conversations with you. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.040 I remember a couple of people said, why are you 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.119 whining about something like like a Laddin brown face when 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.840 you played that that character in Van Wilder, And I 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.439 realized that if these conversations are overly sanitized, and you 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.159 don't have any experience with the story that somebody is 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.480 telling you, and if you've always grown up seeing characters 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.119 who look like you on screen, it's very difficult to 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:35.159 succinctly explain to somebody when you're absent from what you 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.359 see every day, from every cultural reference point, you feel 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.680 as a kid like your your options are limited in life. 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.360 You just feel that way. It just is I'm not 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.640 I'm not I'm not telling you that you should feel 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.639 differently because your experience isn't that. But your point I 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.240 think that you made about about casting directors and about 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.000 being pitted against each other is there's so much nuance 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.160 to these conversations and in order to actually tell those 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.120 stories again, which is why I try to use humor, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.000 because I think it draws people into curiosity. Is then 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:07.240 I think it sets the tone for the complexity of 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.359 what that is and ultimately what we all want, which 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.600 is to move beyond that and celebrate what is possible 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.920 instead of just looking backwards. Absolutely, there is simply no 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.359 way of me, a white person, knowing what it is 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.080 like to not grow up seeing myself represented because it's 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.240 all I've I've ever known. And I think that, like 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.119 you said, what's happening now where you just turn on 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.440 the television and it's across the board. It's not just 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.359