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Speaker 1: I've lived at l A off and on. I went

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Speaker 1: to undergrad there and then stayed for like ten years.

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Speaker 1: But this past spring I was working there and it's

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Speaker 1: the first time I lived by the beach. I grabbed

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Speaker 1: an Airbnb in Venice, and I will never not live

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Speaker 1: close to the beach. When I'm back in l A.

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Speaker 1: It was gorgeous. I was with some Caribbean friends in

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Speaker 1: New York. You know, We've been walking around and looking

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Speaker 1: on the things, and it was amazing and the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And then we finally got to the Hudson and they

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Speaker 1: suddenly relaxed and they were like, thank God, like we

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Speaker 1: didn't know where the city breathed. I was like, I

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Speaker 1: gotta yeah, hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome to Many Questions,

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Speaker 1: Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question. It was originally

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Speaker 1: a nineteenth century harl game where players would ask each

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Speaker 1: other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the other players

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Speaker 1: true nature. It's just scientific method really. In asking different

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Speaker 1: people the same set of questions, you can make observations

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Speaker 1: about which truths appeared to be universal. I love this discipline,

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Speaker 1: and it made me wonder, what if these questions were

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Speaker 1: just the jumping off point. What greater depths would be

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Speaker 1: revealed if I asked these questions as conversation starters with

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Speaker 1: thought leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. So

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Speaker 1: I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own seven

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Speaker 1: questions that I personally think a pertinent to a person's story.

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Speaker 1: They are when and where were you happiest? What is

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Speaker 1: the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real

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Speaker 1: or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would you

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Speaker 1: most like answered, What person, place, or experience has shaped

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Speaker 1: you the most? What would be your last meal? And

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Speaker 1: can you tell me something in your life that's grown

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Speaker 1: out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a group

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Speaker 1: of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored and

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Speaker 1: humbled to have the chance to engage with. You may

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Speaker 1: not hear their answers to all seven of these questions.

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Speaker 1: We've whittled it down to which questions felt closest to

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Speaker 1: their experience or the most surprising, or created the most

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Speaker 1: fertile ground to connect. My guest today is the actor, author,

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Speaker 1: and former OBAMA staff member cal pan Cal is an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary mix of creative talent, and intellectual acuity, which don't

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Speaker 1: always go hand in hand in my business. A native

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Speaker 1: of New Jersey and as keenly political as he is creative,

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Speaker 1: Cal has been a standard bearer for actors of Southeast

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Speaker 1: Asian heritage, bursting onto our screens with John Show in

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Speaker 1: the Harold and Kumar series. And his experience of casual,

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Speaker 1: systemic racism in Hollywood and how that is changing is

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Speaker 1: so clearly and candidly examined in our interview. Amongst many

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Speaker 1: other things, I will also forever hold close the idea

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Speaker 1: that for Cal, when I asked in what relationship, real

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Speaker 1: or fictionalized, defines love for him, he said the Muppets.

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Speaker 1: I hope you really enjoy this conversation as much as

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Speaker 1: I did. So, now, what person, place, or experience most

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Speaker 1: altered your life? I was gonna say, I will say

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Speaker 1: my grandparents, And I want to define that altering does

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Speaker 1: not imply that my life was going in one direction

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Speaker 1: and then it changed course. So I would say maybe

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Speaker 1: impacted because they so I got to know all four

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Speaker 1: grandparents when I was a kid. But the stories they

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Speaker 1: would they would tell us my grandparents, especially on my

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Speaker 1: mom's side, would talk about how they marched with Gandhi

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Speaker 1: and that those were the stories. So it was stories

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Speaker 1: like about literally, you know, you're they're trying to get

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Speaker 1: you to eat your vegetables. And so Grandpa's talking about

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Speaker 1: getting thrown in jail and beaten by British soldiers for

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Speaker 1: standing up for his human rights. And of course the

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Speaker 1: eight year old you was like, there he goes again,

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Speaker 1: Grandpa with another Gandhy story. So rolling eye, rolling story.

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Speaker 1: I'm this like American kid born and raised in the

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Speaker 1: suburbs of New York City, and I'm like, here we go.

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Speaker 1: But of course then when you understand as a kid,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think for me it was in sixth grade.

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Speaker 1: There was a very small section in our history book

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Speaker 1: that tied Gandhi a non violence of the disobedience to

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Speaker 1: Dr King. So you connected it, you connected it to like, yes,

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Speaker 1: they were still alive at that point. So I had

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Speaker 1: the chance to ask my grandparents questions. And my one

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Speaker 1: grandmother in particular didn't speak any English. So one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that I am bilingual and fluently so is

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Speaker 1: because in order to communicate with her, I had to

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Speaker 1: learn a language called I wouldn't say it changed the

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Speaker 1: course of my life, but it offered perspective in a

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Speaker 1: certain type of grounding where recognizing the things like this

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Speaker 1: are not things that are in ancient history, but happened

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Speaker 1: to and have happened to, and involve our relatives, people

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Speaker 1: we've met and known and loved in our lifetimes, and

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Speaker 1: then the idea of and folks who are multi lingual

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Speaker 1: will will know this. I'm so grateful because Lord knows,

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Speaker 1: my high school French didn't turn out too hot. So

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Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for my grandparents being multi lingual because

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Speaker 1: it just offered a perspective on getting to know people

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Speaker 1: and being able to travel, and being able to travel

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Speaker 1: in another language that I don't think I would have

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Speaker 1: had the exposure to otherwise. Is the most spoken language

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Speaker 1: in India. I think it's something like they're they're sixty

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Speaker 1: or eighty million speakers. Because there are a billion people,

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Speaker 1: it makes it. Yeah, it's a it's a minority language. Regionally,

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Speaker 1: it's a smaller language, but by global standards, it's pretty big. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean more than more than how many people are

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Speaker 1: in England. Yeah, I mean, goodness, Wow, I love the

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Speaker 1: e learned a language to be able to communicate with

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Speaker 1: your your grandma, Like, that's really, that's really wonderful. When

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Speaker 1: was the last time, when was the most recent time

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Speaker 1: that you use your good rat There's a movie on Netflix,

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Speaker 1: I think it's Netflix called Wrong Side Raju and it's

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Speaker 1: in good and I was like thumbing through. I was like,

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Speaker 1: wonder if they have any good language content, and they

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Speaker 1: did so I watched it and it was wonderful. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, how brittains. Then maybe I will go and

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Speaker 1: check it out. The name again, Wrong Side Raju's okay? Good?

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Speaker 1: Will you tell me where and when you were happiest

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Speaker 1: in your life? Yes? And I was trying to think

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Speaker 1: about this. I had wished when I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: this answer, I was like, so, I'm a big astronomy nerd,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I wish I had the hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars to go into space talking about talking about

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Speaker 1: things that are morally questionable. By the way, forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes and you're not even in space, because he wasn't

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Speaker 1: in space. He was literally not in space. He was

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Speaker 1: just up high in the sky the wade. You are.

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Speaker 1: I annoyed about this, so annoyed by how much weightless

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Speaker 1: sure space? Not really you weren't really in deep space. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I was gonna I was gonna say I wish

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Speaker 1: I wish I'd done one of those. It would have

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Speaker 1: been my easy answer for me. I feel like part

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Speaker 1: of it in terms of, like, you know, where have

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Speaker 1: I been happiest. There was a work experience that I

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Speaker 1: had on a film called The Namesake, which is based

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Speaker 1: on a novel written by a wonderful author named jimpola

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Speaker 1: Here she won the Pulletzer for her first book, The

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Speaker 1: Interpreter of Melodies, and the film I had the chance

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Speaker 1: to play the one of the leads in the film

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Speaker 1: was directed by a woman named Mary, and I are

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Speaker 1: who she's InCred of all. She's amazing and she was

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Speaker 1: a role model of mine from the time I was

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Speaker 1: a kid. She's actually one of the reasons I decided

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Speaker 1: to become an actor because when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: she had this movie come out called Mississippi Massala. I remember,

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Speaker 1: my god, it was incredible, the hottest, most beautiful, amazing movie.

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Speaker 1: And for folks I don't know Sta Childrey, Denzel Washington

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Speaker 1: and uh And the first time that you know, the

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Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen year old me had seen characters on

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Speaker 1: screen who looked like me, who weren't played by people

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Speaker 1: in brown face or cartoon characters. My god, that was

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Speaker 1: how I wanted to look more than any other. I

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Speaker 1: mean once when I was a kid, it was Sigourney

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Speaker 1: Weaver because there was no one else that had the

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Speaker 1: same hair as I did. But Surrita in that film

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Speaker 1: was the most my It was my epitome of female beauty.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow. Basically walking out of that theater, I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, these are these are families or characters that

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Speaker 1: that are like mine. And they're in addition to just

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Speaker 1: the the feeling of like why do I feel this way?

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Speaker 1: And and the characters also weren't one note right. They

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Speaker 1: were flawed, and they made mistakes, and they were racist,

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Speaker 1: and they had sex, and they all of the beautiful

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Speaker 1: and tragic things that happen in life were happening to

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Speaker 1: these characters. So it was one of those things where

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, if if this, if these women can

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Speaker 1: do it, then maybe it's something I can do as well.

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Speaker 1: And then in college, I remember waiting for hours there

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Speaker 1: was an announcement that Mire and I are was going

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Speaker 1: to speak on campus, and I went. It was I

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Speaker 1: think it was like a seven pm start time, and

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Speaker 1: I must have showed up at like three pm, and

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Speaker 1: I waited in line with my head shot. I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I feel like if I sit in the front row

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Speaker 1: it's too eager. But if I sit like two rows back,

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Speaker 1: then I can get her my head shot at the end.

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Speaker 1: And I loved, you know, I loved her her conversation.

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Speaker 1: And at the very end I managed to kind of

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Speaker 1: get up to her and handed her my head shot

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Speaker 1: and she was very polite. She said, oh, how how lovely,

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Speaker 1: and that was obviously you don't from people when you

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Speaker 1: bombard them that way. Um. But that was in college,

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Speaker 1: and then two thousand and five or six, I had

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Speaker 1: the chance to work on the namesake. And I will

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Speaker 1: tell you I only had the chance to work on

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Speaker 1: the namesake because Mira's then fourteen year old son, Zaran,

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Speaker 1: was a huge fan of the Harold and Kamar Go

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Speaker 1: to White Castle film, and he apparently had shown her

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Speaker 1: the a trailer or a couple of clips from the

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Speaker 1: movie to say, hey, cal Penn would be perfect as

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Speaker 1: go Gol, the title character or the lead character in

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Speaker 1: the film, and Mira apparently saw this like silly stoner

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Speaker 1: movie and was like, this is obviously not the guy.

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Speaker 1: But I had written her a letter asking to audition

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Speaker 1: for the film because I heard she was casting it,

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Speaker 1: and I never heard back, and so I found out

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Speaker 1: that the reason that I was finally allowed audition was

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Speaker 1: because of her son. So basically he convinced her to

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Speaker 1: let me audition. Now, Harold and Kumar, I think one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that I had tipped my myself or

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Speaker 1: the edge was I was one of the few South

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Speaker 1: Asian actors in those days who had a film credit

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Speaker 1: on his resume because of a comedy I did in

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Speaker 1: like two thousand and two thousand and one called Van

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Speaker 1: Wilder with Ryan Reynolds. His first was his first big thing,

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Speaker 1: and the name of the character was taj Mahal that

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Speaker 1: I played like it was this it was I had

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Speaker 1: a great I mean I I have a book that

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Speaker 1: recently came out where I talked about the whole story

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Speaker 1: about getting cast in it and and how gracious by

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Speaker 1: the way both Ryan and Terry Reid were. But to

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Speaker 1: go from like that first job where you're an actor,

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Speaker 1: you take what you're gonna get right and you build

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Speaker 1: your resume from it. But the problematic nature of playing

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Speaker 1: a guy named taj Mahal, to that leading to the

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Speaker 1: Harold and Kumar movies, to that then leading to the Namesake,

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Speaker 1: where I get to work with a woman who is

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I decided to be an

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Speaker 1: actor to begin with, and then starting on that project

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Speaker 1: and realizing it was, especially in two thousand five, guys

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Speaker 1: who look like me don't get to do literary adaptations

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Speaker 1: that are that are beautiful dramas. You're right, because now

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Speaker 1: you know, I look at I don't know, Depitel, that's

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Speaker 1: like just total movie stars. But in two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: you're right, Yeah, you were so for all those reasons.

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Speaker 1: When you say when were you most happiest? I was like,

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Speaker 1: isn't a cop out to mention something work related? And

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, it's not, because the whole reason

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Speaker 1: we love art and storytelling sometimes it's tied into so

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Speaker 1: much more, including the fourteen year old me and the

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Speaker 1: twenty six year old me and then the twenty eight

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Speaker 1: year old me, and you know, it's just at every

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Speaker 1: iteration when there's something like that that inspires you, and

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Speaker 1: then you have the chance to work with those people.

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Speaker 1: I can't even describe how content I was and how

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Speaker 1: much I felt like I was able to excel in

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Speaker 1: my craft during that period of time. I completely understand that,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's so connected. And also, your desire

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Speaker 1: was the straight shot. Everything else was just constantly bisecting

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Speaker 1: the straight shot of your kind of intention. But the

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Speaker 1: fact that it does, it doesn't necessarily come in the

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Speaker 1: way that you thought it should. It didn't. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you thought that you would hand her your head

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Speaker 1: shot and it would all sort of happen then, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, no, and actually it's still not going to

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Speaker 1: happen in a super competitive audition process. But then a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old kid who's seen this movie, I love

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Speaker 1: it when happiness is genuinely in the gray areas. It's

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Speaker 1: not in the it's often not in the way in

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Speaker 1: which we divine it should be. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: How amazing. Also, the fact that Mirror and I would

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Speaker 1: be this continuous creative punctuation through your story, I think

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Speaker 1: that's really I think that's really amazing. I'm also I

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Speaker 1: cannot believe that the character in Van Wilder was called

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think I'm ever going to get

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Speaker 1: over that. It's shocking. It is absolutely shocking that that

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Speaker 1: was only that was that was two thousand five, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not that, I mean, that's not that long ago.

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Speaker 1: Two thou Well, I'll one up you if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're surprised by that, because you're ready. It wasn't that

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Speaker 1: long ago. I think every actor goes through this in

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Speaker 1: the appropriate comparison. But you know, sometimes you audition for

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Speaker 1: stuff and you you want to know if you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get it, and you're not sure if you're gonna take it,

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Speaker 1: and so this was one of those things where I

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Speaker 1: was like, let me just see because I know I'm

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Speaker 1: a I'm a I'm an aspiring actor. At that point,

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Speaker 1: I was like, let me see if I get this job,

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Speaker 1: because I need a credit on my resume. In the realities,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know what people think I look like,

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Speaker 1: and so if I'm going to get credits on my resume,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna probably have to do some of these types

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Speaker 1: of of parts. And so I remember going back for

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Speaker 1: callbacks and I knew what the last callback. I was

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Speaker 1: told it's between you and another guy, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: know who he was. And the issue with diversities, of course,

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Speaker 1: it's never a question of there aren't enough actors. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody, there's so many talented actors to choose from.

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Speaker 1: And so I walk into the room and the other

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Speaker 1: guy had arrived before me, and it was a white

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Speaker 1: dude in brown face. I'm not kidding, and any any um,

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Speaker 1: any question that I had about whether I was going

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Speaker 1: to take the part if I got it, all went

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Speaker 1: out the window because I saw this dude sitting there

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, yeah, no, you're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to play this. You can play Brandon from Iowa all

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Speaker 1: you want, because you're gonna get tons of aliens or

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. And it made the decision a lot

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Speaker 1: easier because I thought, no, so the choices like this

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Speaker 1: dude gets a credit on his resume or I do.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know how your approaches, but I rarely

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Speaker 1: have beef with other actors in any situation, especially even

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Speaker 1: a situation like this, because I understand the desperation of

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Speaker 1: wanting a job and how competitive the field is. So

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Speaker 1: I was more curious. I was like, Okay, here's the deal.

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Speaker 1: My god, did this guy he like, did his agent

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Speaker 1: tell him to paint his face or did he decide

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Speaker 1: to do that on his own. Number two, it's a callback.

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Speaker 1: Had he painted his face before and everyone was cool

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Speaker 1: with that? Number Three? Where did he do it? Did

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Speaker 1: he paint his face at home? If so, did it

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Speaker 1: increase his chances of getting pulled over by the car?

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Speaker 1: Or did he come to the audition and then paying

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Speaker 1: his face in the bathroom? That was all the stuff.

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Speaker 1: I was so fascinated. I'm just I know, and I

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Speaker 1: know that you're you're laughing and you're brilliant and you

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Speaker 1: have long metabolized this. But it's like the awful sort

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Speaker 1: of passive sexual assaults that happen on female actors all

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Speaker 1: the time, and how one just sort of metabolized and

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Speaker 1: it becomes part of your narrative. But it's only like

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Speaker 1: when I tell that story people, I think they're going

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Speaker 1: to laugh or they're like, oh my goodness, they don't,

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Speaker 1: and like hearing you, hearing you tell that story, like

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Speaker 1: of what of what that must have been like like

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Speaker 1: walking into I just I'm I'm I'm so, I'm so shocked.

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Speaker 1: And I'm also it makes where we are now in

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Speaker 1: terms of this business that we're in, because I know

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Speaker 1: it is really local to what is happening in Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: where we are seeing significant change and inclusion is actively

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Speaker 1: being pursued, that I sort of feel like perhaps the

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Speaker 1: boat is turning, but still you you're so good humored

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Speaker 1: about something that is I thought that didn't happen after

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Speaker 1: Fisher Stevens like brown based in Short Search, which is

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Speaker 1: still one of the most insane things I've ever seen

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Speaker 1: in my life. Like now to watch that film, it's yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: it still happens. I mean, look, the reason I laugh

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Speaker 1: about it, the reason that I in in the book

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Speaker 1: and especially in the audiobook because I read it myself

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Speaker 1: for this particular reason is like, you know, the the

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Speaker 1: one of the many reasons that I laugh about things

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Speaker 1: like that, not that it doesn't happen. It happened. As

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Speaker 1: recently is the live action Aladdin, where a lot of

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Speaker 1: extras were painted apparently, and Disney, who I happily have

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Speaker 1: worked for and hope to continue to work for, I

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Speaker 1: think their their statement was something like, well, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: possible to hire enough brown background actors, and they were

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Speaker 1: they were shooting in fucking London. I mean, come on, really,

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Speaker 1: that's not what the real answer to that is. We

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Speaker 1: didn't want to invest the financial resources in getting them all.

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Speaker 1: It's not that they don't exist. Are you gonna have

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Speaker 1: to work a tiny bit harder to find them? Maybe?

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Speaker 1: And there were there were some lively conversations about it

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Speaker 1: where I think, thankfully, like you had mentioned, people within

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Speaker 1: the industry, we're like, oh, yeah, that's not a thing.

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Speaker 1: That's cool. We shouldn't. We shouldn't. We can we can

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Speaker 1: do better, right collect, we can better. But the biggest

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Speaker 1: reason I laugh about telling those stories is I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy with being able to turn on the TV today

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Speaker 1: and just seeing so much diversity in terms of content.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even just mean the ethnic or gender diversity.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking like you turn on some of these shows

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Speaker 1: and it's stuff that I couldn't have conceived of, would

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Speaker 1: would even be a show ten years ago, or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, something like never have I ever write so

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Speaker 1: many South Asian characters of a different generation like two

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Speaker 1: below mine. I never would have thought that we'd ever

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Speaker 1: see something like that. So it's I tell those stories

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Speaker 1: in a good natured way, I think, because I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy with how much our industry has progressed, And to

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Speaker 1: your point, there's obviously so much more work that still

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Speaker 1: needs to be done. But it's a nice I think

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Speaker 1: it's a nice moment in the last few years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I also think that I've realized that the way in

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Speaker 1: which people metabolize hard conversations is often when there is

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Speaker 1: and even though it seems to fall on the shoulder

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Speaker 1: of the person to whom that bad ship has happened,

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Speaker 1: but when you being able to tell it, tell that

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Speaker 1: story in such an erudite, funny, clever way. It's like,

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Speaker 1: but again, I find that awful because I'm like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Cal's giving me permission to laugh and be

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Speaker 1: okay with this. You should laugh. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it is it is better to laugh than to feel

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Speaker 1: still in a ditch around that stuff. And I laugh

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Speaker 1: telling the stories of being aggressed upon by revolting casting directors,

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Speaker 1: directors and whomever it was. Yeah, your point is so

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Speaker 1: well taken because it reminds me of I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's difficult if if these conversations are overly sanitized, it's

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Speaker 1: difficult to explain, Like I remember Twitter, By the way,

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Speaker 1: Twitter mentions obviously are not a good barometer on taking

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Speaker 1: the temperature on anything, but but whether it's whether it's

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Speaker 1: Twitter or people who will actually have conversations with you.

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Speaker 1: I remember a couple of people said, why are you

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Speaker 1: whining about something like like a Laddin brown face when

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Speaker 1: you played that that character in Van Wilder, And I

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Speaker 1: realized that if these conversations are overly sanitized, and you

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Speaker 1: don't have any experience with the story that somebody is

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Speaker 1: telling you, and if you've always grown up seeing characters

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Speaker 1: who look like you on screen, it's very difficult to

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Speaker 1: succinctly explain to somebody when you're absent from what you

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Speaker 1: see every day, from every cultural reference point, you feel

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Speaker 1: as a kid like your your options are limited in life.

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Speaker 1: You just feel that way. It just is I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not telling you that you should feel

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Speaker 1: differently because your experience isn't that. But your point I

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Speaker 1: think that you made about about casting directors and about

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Speaker 1: being pitted against each other is there's so much nuance

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Speaker 1: to these conversations and in order to actually tell those

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Speaker 1: stories again, which is why I try to use humor,

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Speaker 1: because I think it draws people into curiosity. Is then

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Speaker 1: I think it sets the tone for the complexity of

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Speaker 1: what that is and ultimately what we all want, which

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Speaker 1: is to move beyond that and celebrate what is possible

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Speaker 1: instead of just looking backwards. Absolutely, there is simply no

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Speaker 1: way of me, a white person, knowing what it is

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Speaker 1: like to not grow up seeing myself represented because it's

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Speaker 1: all I've I've ever known. And I think that, like

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Speaker 1: you said, what's happening now where you just turn on

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Speaker 1: the television and it's across the board. It's not just

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00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: about color or gender. It's about it's about everything that

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00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: has been marginalized and turned into fringe that is now

403
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Speaker 1: being pulled into this crucible of like cultural awareness, which

404
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,919
Speaker 1: is that's how we change. It's where it's where change,

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00:21:45,080 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: meaningful change happens. I think what relationship, real or fictionalized,

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Speaker 1: defines love? For you, the Muppets, I can tell from

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Speaker 1: the look on your face that nobody has said this before,

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if that's a good thing, But

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Speaker 1: I'm not now that you say it, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: why no one has said it before, because of course

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Speaker 1: they define love, please please continue. Just it's love for

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Speaker 1: each other, obviously with all of the complexities that come

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Speaker 1: along with that. And I'm not just talking about Kermit

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Speaker 1: and Ms Piggy and a love for what they do,

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00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: because there's such an obvious love for the audience as

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Speaker 1: the the extension of that fourth wall, that it's all

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00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: a celebration of what they're doing. All of it is

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Speaker 1: based in the love of this collective thing. And I

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Speaker 1: just think it's the coolest thing. It's so true. What

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Speaker 1: was it? It's time to put on makeup, It's time

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Speaker 1: to like the whole thing is about the show. I

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Speaker 1: love that you chose the Muppets, and also that it's fictional,

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Speaker 1: because I often all my great loves have been fictional.

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Speaker 1: Did you watch a lot of Muppets when you were

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Speaker 1: a child? I did, and still Who is Your Well?

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Speaker 1: I was called animal at school. That was one of

427
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: my nicknames that people called me because I had crazy

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Speaker 1: hair and I was really sort of tall and thin

429
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: with had like the top of a palm tree. Who

430
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: is who is your most beloved Muppet? I have always

431
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: been gravitated towards Kermit. But I will tell you why.

432
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: I know that you assume it's because, okay, well, he's

433
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: like the leader, and you're you know, and the poet.

434
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: It's it is all of those things. But the real reason,

435
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: the real reason is that he is the only one

436
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: who appears on both The Muppet Show and Sesame Street.

437
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: He does both, and so I was always very very

438
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: in all of the fact that that dude had two jobs.

439
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: I could watch him in the morning on Sesame Street

440
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: and then he was also on The Muppet Show in

441
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: the evening. By the way, that is also a really

442
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: South Asian work ethic coming out right there. That is

443
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: fully cultural of Absolutely, that's one in the morning and

444
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: one in the evening. That's something that nineteen uncles would

445
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: probably point out. Yes, that's fantastic. I've never thought about that,

446
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right. I love Kermit. I love him. Also,

447
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: the Willie Nelson version of Rainbow Connection is honestly, I

448
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever not cried listening to that song.

449
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: What question would you most like answered? Oh boy, I

450
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: was about to say, what happens after you die? But

451
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: the answer is nothing. Well, you don't know that. You

452
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: definitely don't know that that is the us. That's true,

453
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: that's true, that's true. I mean there's nothing, there's nothing

454
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: for your body. But I don't know who knows that

455
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: that that that the kinetic doesn't kicker carry on? Yeah,

456
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: I guess I would like answered where where specifically the

457
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: the closest civilization is outside of out Oh that's good.

458
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: And now you see I'm really thinking about that because

459
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: I've had all kinds of aliens and after we die answers,

460
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: which are always fun to think about, but actually thinking

461
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: where geographically or where whatever the word can you use

462
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: geographical if it's not pertaining like to the Earth surface,

463
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: that can you use that in the universe? Is should

464
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: there be a word we can We've just decided that

465
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: that's acceptable. Great. I'm so glad that the King and Queen.

466
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: What's the new telescope? What's the good the web? The

467
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: James Web telescope, which, by the way, someone wrote something

468
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: so funny. They were like the day after they showed

469
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: those pictures, they were like Hubble's waken up today, like

470
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: the before picture in a boat dogs had bless Hubble.

471
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: Do you think, though, that that exponential development of our

472
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: ability to go and do you think that's what will

473
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: help us answer questions like the one that you've just

474
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, I think so, I hope. So

475
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: how far off do you think we are? Do you

476
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: know you like astronomy? What do you somebody was saying

477
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: that the hope was in our lifetime. My god. I

478
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: was having this conversation with this man called David Eagleman,

479
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: who is this this neuroscientist, brilliant scientist person who teaches

480
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: at Stanford, And he was talking about the vastness of

481
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: our ignorance, the complexity and vasts of our ignorance, But

482
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: not in a way like ignorance has such a kind

483
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: of pejorative flavor, but in the like excited the vastness

484
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: of our ignorance, like within that is all of these answers,

485
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: and that if we keep exploring the varses of arguments,

486
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: that we will come across it. And I love that.

487
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: I love that idea because it's sort of becoming pioneers

488
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: of the unknown, like I mean, and and being excited

489
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: and curious about that as opposed to feeling bewildered and

490
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and hopeless, which is how I often feel when I

491
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: think about the unknown, like where's my next job coming from?

492
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: What would be your last meal? Tackles? I love tackles.

493
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: They're really good tacos in New York. I don't think

494
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: anything compares obviously to Mexico, but l a Mexican food

495
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: in l A compared to New York, there's no there's

496
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: no comparison. California and Mexico are just that. There's there's

497
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: nowhere I've eaten. I've eaten tacos everywhere, and there's nowhere

498
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: like l A in Mexico. Yeah, my favorite taco spot

499
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: is still place called Los Tacos on Santa Monica. Bouli

500
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: are just west of Fairfax. It's in a strip mall

501
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: next to its sandwich, between a seven eleven and laundromat.

502
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: I used to live in the neighborhood fifteen years ago,

503
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: and that laundromat is where I used to do my laundry.

504
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: And so early in the morning you would see these

505
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: lines of construction workers getting their breakfast. At night you

506
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: would see a whole bunch of drunk people getting their

507
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: munkey food. So one day, while I was doing laundry,

508
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: I was like, let me see what the hype is

509
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: about here, and it was so delicious. It's open, and

510
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: I have been known to stop there to and or

511
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: from l A X. So like the plane lands and

512
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, can you guys give me an extra

513
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: forty minutes before the first meeting because I need to

514
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: hit up Los Tacos roll. Oh my god, I can't

515
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: wait to go that. I'm literally going up in town

516
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: on Monday. I'm going to Los Tacos. Okay, what do

517
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: you get number two? Which is, uh, two tacos rice

518
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: and beans? But what, senor are you I've done. Their

519
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,239
Speaker 1: chicken and their veg their veggie are going to be

520
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: soft tacos and their chicken. You can get either soft

521
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: or hard. I'm really hungry now. Yeah, it's really good.

522
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: There's nothing father I would are you? Are you vegetarian? No?

523
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: I don't eat red, mate, but I eat I eat

524
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: a bit of chicken, and I eat fish. So a

525
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: funny story about that place. When I first started going there,

526
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: I was strictly a vegetarian, and I remember I remember

527
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: asking the guy. I was like, hey, man, I'd like

528
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: to try your number two. But are the beans and

529
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: rice vegetarian two? Or is there like lard in the

530
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: beans and chicken stock in the rice? And he goes, no, no,

531
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: no vegetarianos. And I was like, cool, awesome, I'll do that.

532
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: And it was so good that I've then been going

533
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: there for like eight years. My vegan brother came to

534
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: visit and I was like, I'm taking you to the spot, man,

535
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: the spot. We go to those tacos and he's like, well,

536
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask if everything's vegan. I was like, it's

537
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: vege gitarian. What else are they going to put in it?

538
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask anyway. So he asks and they go, oh,

539
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: it's a different person. And the person goes, oh, no,

540
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: it's not vegan. In fact, there's lard in the beans

541
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: and there's chicken stock in the rights. And I was like,

542
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 1: what wha time out? You told me no? And then

543
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: I was replaying it back in my head and so

544
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: clearly what the guy said was no vegetarian. Nos not

545
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: no comma veg know that there isn't anything that's vegetarian.

546
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: And I was so excited about these tacos that I

547
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: ate them anyway, thinking that he meant it's vegetaran. My

548
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: lovely yeah, yeah, who has helped me take care of

549
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: my son. When I asked her how she would make

550
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: her beans, I was like, I remember saying exactly the

551
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: same thing. I was like, are they are they vegetarian?

552
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: And she was like yes, And then she was like

553
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: except for the polk knuckle. It's all vegetarian except for

554
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: the pool knuckle that you cook in with the beans

555
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: to make them taste delicious. Yes, yes, exactly. Was I

556
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: loved that though, Oh my gosh, your poor brother in

557
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: your life. Can you tell me about something that has

558
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: grown out of a personal disaster? Yes, so, you know,

559
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: we've talked briefly about the brown face of it all

560
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: that I was laughing about. But experiences like that, we're

561
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: going on auditions where I would be for non actors. Here,

562
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: I'll give you the full disclaimer of every actor. When

563
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: you start out, the only thing you're allowed audition for

564
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: is what producers and casting directors think you look like, exactly. So,

565
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: so my version of that obviously has ethnic and racial undertones,

566
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: because the late nineties and early two thousand's for somebody

567
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: who looked like me, we're a lot more about that

568
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: than anything else. So I would go on auditions and

569
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: it seemed like I was only getting auditions for parts

570
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: that were already written to be Saltatian or or Latin

571
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: X frankly, or like you could pass. And a lot

572
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: of those are are the you know, sort of one

573
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: dimensional stereotypes. And I had always sort of said to myself,

574
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, an accent alone does not make a stereotype.

575
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: Plenty of people have accents, and the stereotype comes from

576
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: accents that are added in a reductionist way, meaning the

577
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,239
Speaker 1: producers know the writing sucks, therefore covered up with an

578
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: accent and people will laugh. Right. And I realized that

579
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: early on on on, you know, audition for things like

580
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: Sabrina the Teenage, which which you know, a sweet show

581
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: and it's for kids. And I remember going on this

582
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: audition and the audition was three lines, and I was

583
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: so excited that idea. I was like, you know, I'm

584
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: going to create a backstory for my character. So I

585
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: was like, it's three lines. I don't care. Okay, this

586
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: guy is from the Pacific Northwest. He's maybe grow up

587
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: outside of Seattle, and he wears a lot of flannels,

588
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: and he loves small batch organic coffee and like maybe

589
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: he tried to brew beer once in his bad tub

590
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: and it didn't go well, like things like I think

591
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with the stupid three lines

592
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: about the study group, right, But I went into this

593
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: audition confident and with all this backstory and uh, the

594
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: cashing new corector. I remember ran out as I was

595
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: getting to my car and he said, hey, the producers

596
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: would love for you to do it again. And I

597
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is awesome. And so as I'm

598
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: about to walk back in the room, he goes, this

599
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: time with an accent, and I was like, okay, there

600
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: is a bit of coercion, as you mentioned that, the

601
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: things that you're made to feel like you have to withstand.

602
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: But ultimately I could have said no, I could have

603
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 1: walked out of there. But the thing that went through

604
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: my head was, Okay, this job pays about seven bucks

605
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: my rent is month, and this is going to be

606
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: a credit on a resume that's currently non existent. So

607
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: I should probably do this because that's what happened hundreds

608
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: of times, right. And so the thing that I would

609
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: always say when they would say we'd like you to

610
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: do with an accent, is sure, what kind of accent

611
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: would you like? I can do Scottish, Irish, Southern Italian.

612
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: You know. I would just go off and they were

613
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: never amused, but they in this case, the director, who's

614
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: a real prick, leaned in and he goes, uh, why

615
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: don't we just stick to Indian? So I said, Okay,

616
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: I did the audition and I walked out of there

617
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: not feeling great, and so I went back to my apartment.

618
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: I called my agent to tell her what had happened,

619
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: and she she picked up the phone ands at congratulations,

620
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: They called you got the part. I felt so disappointed,

621
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: like I was almost hoping I wasn't going to get

622
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 1: the part because I didn't want to have to deal

623
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: with what this was going to be. And I immediately

624
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: felt like, the hell is this? This sucks. When my

625
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: friends get their first few roles, we all go out

626
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: for drinks and we celebrate and we encourage each other

627
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: and they're excited that they're playing the frat boy from

628
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: Indiana or whatever. How Come I don't get to be happy.

629
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: I don't get to celebrate because I I don't want

630
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: to do the stereotypical thing. So I said to the agent,

631
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: is there any what you could call them and say

632
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: that I'll only do it if if I can just

633
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: play it the way I did before, like the dude

634
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: from the Pacific Northwest, And she goes my experiences that

635
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: generally agents are the worst people to have this conversation.

636
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: What you should do is like, so if you know

637
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: you're taking anyway, why don't you go early, Go in

638
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: a half hour early, talk to the director and see

639
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: if you can make your case. So I went in

640
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: a half hour early. I found the director and he

641
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: was very nice to me, unlike at the audition, and

642
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: I said, hey, man, thank you. You buttered him up.

643
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. What a fun

644
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: script um I was. I was hoping that I could

645
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: play him the way I did it in the first

646
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: round of my audition, without an accent. And he goes, oh, no,

647
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: that accents hilarious. You're you're going to do it. That's

648
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: why we hired you. And and so then again in

649
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: my head, I'm like, ah, because you know, the writing

650
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: was subpar. There we go, and then I this voice

651
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: came into my head that was like, you know, they

652
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: say that racism comes from ignorance, so perhaps he doesn't

653
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: even know, you know, And and I don't want to

654
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: presume the guy knows or feels things that he doesn't.

655
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: So I said, I gotta be honest. My little cousin's

656
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: love this show and they're you know, they're like in

657
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: fourth grade. I just thought it would be so cool

658
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: if they could watch a character and experience something that

659
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: I never got to experience, and like see themselves in

660
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: a way that that I never got to see myself

661
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: and laugh with the character instead of being laughed at.

662
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: And he looks at me and he goes, uh, well,

663
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: your cousins should feel lucky that you're allowed to be

664
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: on TV to begin with, and so should you. And

665
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: he walks off. So my first thought was, oh, okay,

666
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: so it's not that ignorance sequels racism sometimes like there's

667
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: a prick who knows exactly what he's doing and he

668
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: just doesn't give a shit. But then the second part

669
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: was again, could I have left? Of course today? Was

670
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: anybody forcing me to do anything? No? I was the

671
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: one who decided that this is what I wanted to

672
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: do to get a credit on my resume. But the

673
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: big takeaway from me was that and it is a

674
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: story that I tell him the audiobook in the book,

675
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: not because I want somebody to IMDb this guy, although

676
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: you're certainly welcome to, but them the idea that it's

677
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: but truly, I mean, it's like this is uh, these

678
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: things are all systemic, right, It's not about this one

679
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: guy or this girl show. It's a out the things

680
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: that thankfully we have slowly but surely moved on from

681
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: so so that story that I just told you, there

682
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: were like probably stories like that over a period of

683
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: five or six years. And there was a point where

684
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: I basically was like I would see audition sides and

685
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: I would know exactly what they wanted, and I wouldn't

686
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: prepare at all because I saw, you know, okay, it's

687
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: a guy named Abduel from Pakistan. I know exactly what

688
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna ask for. Do I even want to bother?

689
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: And then on the rare occasion when I was like, oh,

690
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: it's a guy named Justin from Milwaukee. While I'm obviously

691
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: not going to get that part, So the same thing

692
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't prepare, I wouldn't come up with the backstory.

693
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: I would sometimes go on the audition and and so

694
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: there was a moment after a long time of doing

695
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: this where I just realized, what the funk are you doing? Man?

696
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: Like you've already decided before you audition that you're not

697
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: getting this part. You've just decided that, so you're not

698
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: putting any work in, You're just showing up. Why are

699
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: you even showing up for this? If this isn't something

700
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: you're passionate about, or that you want to figure out

701
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: strategically how to build career and what sacrifices a you're

702
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: gonna have to make before you have the chance to

703
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: call it a career then do something else. And so

704
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm gonna take the l's at,

705
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take you know, I'm gonna go to law school.

706
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something else. And that from that darkness,

707
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: that realization that I know a lot of artists, period

708
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: musicians say this stuff a lot, athletes say this a

709
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: lot where it's the difference between it like, it's not

710
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: a choice, right, you have to do it. So when

711
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: I when I had made the decision that maybe this

712
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: isn't what I want to do, immediately I was like, no,

713
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: that's wrong. This is what I have to do. This

714
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: is what I am passionate about, this form of storytelling.

715
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: And so that means so I reevaluated everything. From that point,

716
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to have to start saying

717
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: no to certain auditions. There's nothing wrong with saying no

718
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: to them, and I shouldn't consider it a personal assault.

719
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: Every time I see audition sides that are boring and

720
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: racist and understand that the reason that I find them

721
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: so abhorrent, aside from obviously racist, sit is really bad.

722
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: But but a lot of the reason creatively that I

723
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: find it so exhausting is that it's boring. I wish

724
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: there was a word could talk about this without it

725
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: drawing equivalency, because there is not equivalency. Racism is racism,

726
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: and sexism is sexism. That they're they're different, their systemic problems,

727
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: but they're different. But I cannot tell you the familiarity

728
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: of what you're saying, of the sensation of looking at

729
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: something of a woman being an adjunct to a man

730
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: perpetually through a career, that if you're lucky, you can

731
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: massage it, if you're clever and you're smart, and you

732
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: make it seem like it was all the guys in

733
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: the room's idea for this woman to become more interesting

734
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: and more intelligent, then you can up the experience. But

735
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: I actually did leave Hollywood. I actually left and went

736
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: to Hawaii. And when I can't, I can't do this anymore.

737
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't keep fighting for and and be

738
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: told that I should be grateful for the mediocrity that

739
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm being offered, how do you continue to believe that

740
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: you're good at something if that is perpetually you're perpetually

741
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: being told this is a good part and you read

742
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: it and you go it isn't It is an overly

743
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: sexualized adjunct to this dude story. So that recognition of

744
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: either I do this and I figure out a way

745
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: of staying connected to what I want to do and

746
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: say no to those things and maybe have some leaner

747
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: years because I just go, no, I'm not going to

748
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: do that shitty fucking movie, even though it's big, because

749
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: it's dumb and it's stupid and it's perpetuating an idea

750
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: about women. But you're absolutely right, like there's enormous freedom

751
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: in reaching that moment, but it's also pretty terrifying. I

752
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: am really I understand. I understand that choice that I

753
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: think those comparisons, while you're right, they are, they are different,

754
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: But I think it's it's it's a very fair more

755
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: than a fair comparison, because that's the systemic stuff that

756
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: I think we're talking about, right, And that idea that

757
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: when when I was at that low point of saying

758
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to say no to certain things and I'm

759
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: going to recognize that one of the reasons I felt

760
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: so disappointed that I wasn't able to go out and

761
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: celebrate with friends when I would get these small jobs.

762
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out what, what what did

763
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: I actually have a problem with him? Like I said,

764
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: it's not that it's just an accent, it's recognizing that

765
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: an accent is is a reductionist way of covering up

766
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: shitty writing or that you know this idea that you

767
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: hear people say this a lot. Unfortunately, things like he

768
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: had to play a seven eleven owner. I'm sorry, is

769
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: a seven eleven store clerk somehow a less than noble profession?

770
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: Are these guys not working sixteen hours a day? What

771
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: people mean to say is that that reductionism of a profession,

772
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: especially a working class profession, tied to a character that

773
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: has no other merit or actionable agency in a piece

774
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: except for their profession and their ethnicity, is by definition

775
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: what creates a stereotype. So the kind of analyzing all

776
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: that and then being like and basically I'm like in

777
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: my early twenties at this point, I want to play cool, fun,

778
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: interesting characters. I don't want to play characters that we're

779
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: already played eighteen times on The Simpsons. But like we've

780
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: we've seen it all before, you know what I mean,

781
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: We don't have to the definition, especially they who loves

782
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: comedy like comedy continues to evolve in great ways when

783
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: you have great writers. It's lazy if you always look

784
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: backwards for what worked before, because that's already been done

785
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: exactly to do. So that whole conversation was part of

786
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: what came out of that. For me, Where were you

787
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: at mentally when Lawrence what was his last name on House? Cutner? When? When? When?

788
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: When that character came along? Where were you at in

789
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: terms of of your career and how you were seeing

790
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: it and how engaged you were with the kind of

791
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: work that you wanted to do. Yeah, thank you for

792
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: asking me that question, because that is one of one

793
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: of the thankfully many, because I feel like we've only

794
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: talked about the problematic one so far. Wonderful audition process.

795
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: So David Shore, who created House, I love him. I'm

796
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: honestly a devoted David Shaw fan for the rest of

797
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: my life. Yeah. When I was on House, they were

798
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: adding I think six or six or nine characters. We

799
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: had to compete our characters were competing for permanent slots.

800
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: First of all, it was men and women alike, and

801
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: the age range of those characters was like, you know,

802
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: twenty two to seventy. And I remember going in for

803
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: the audition and I was given sides of a Mormon

804
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: doctor and I thought, somebody has made a terrible mistake,

805
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: or they seriously think that I could play a Mormon doctor,

806
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 1: whichever it is. That's crazy. And then I walked into

807
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: the audition and it's men and women twenty two to

808
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: seventy in the same waiting room, with the same sets

809
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: of such amazing, amazing and I'm like, what is this?

810
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: Surely is this what color blind casting looks like? Uh?

811
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: And even gender blind casting to some extent. And so I,

812
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 1: you know, callback after callback we're realizing they're whittling things down.

813
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: And they must have been two years later when I

814
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: had really gotten to know David that I had the

815
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: guts to ask him, hey, man, what was the deal

816
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: with that audition? Why was it like that? And I

817
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: described it exactly as I just did with you, and

818
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: David goes, what are you talking about? And I said,

819
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: come on, David, that is how you ran that audition,

820
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: And he goes, no, No, I know that's how I

821
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: run all my auditions. What do you what's your actual question?

822
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: I said, well, why do it that way? You know?

823
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: Usually if I'm reading for something, it's either people who

824
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: sort of look like me or I feel like I'm

825
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: never going to get the part. And he goes, oh,

826
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: I just do it that way because I want to

827
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: hire the best actors. How are you going to find

828
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: the best actors if you don't open it up like that?

829
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is why you're so good at

830
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: what you do, you know, So I like that that

831
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: is going that's happening at the same time as the

832
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: other shitty stuff that you're talking about. No, there was

833
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of great stuff. I

834
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: definitely don't want to make it sound like it's a

835
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: it's a ship fest. No, it's part of it that

836
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: two things can be true at once, more than two things.

837
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: Because it must have been amazing with hald and Kuma,

838
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: like fat incredible. I loved it. To an Asian actor,

839
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: a south as An actor running that movie, yeah, and

840
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: it was all it was a happy experience. Loved it.

841
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and John Show and I are clothed the

842
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: whole team. You guys are both just assompletely hilarious. Oh Cal,

843
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: It's been such a pleasure talking to you. Likewise, Thank you.

844
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: Cal's new memoir, You Can't Be Serious, is out now

845
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: in paperback and audiobook. You can also see Cal in

846
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: the Santa Clauses on Disney Plus. Mini Questions is hosted

847
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer Aaron Kaufman,

848
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry

849
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman, executive

850
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,

851
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Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nique Oppenheim

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Speaker 1: at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kateree Driver and Jason Weinberg,

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Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited tech support Henry Driver h