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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For many people around the world,

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Speaker 1: this is one of the two most holy seasons of

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Speaker 1: the year, Christmas and Easter. Without Easter, would Christmas even matter?

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Speaker 1: And vice versa. Tonight the prosecution's case for Christ. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: A mystery buried in time, from ancient scrolls to unmarked tombs.

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Speaker 2: What may archaeological evidence reveal of Jesus of Nazareth?

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Speaker 1: Is he real? Was he real? When we enter into

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Speaker 1: the Christmas season, we see Santa, we see Christmas trees

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Speaker 1: in all different states and sizes, We see granch Well,

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Speaker 1: where does Christ fit into this scenario? It's so easy

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Speaker 1: to ignore the fact that Christmas is named after Christ?

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Speaker 1: But is it just a myth? Something we're told since

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Speaker 1: we're little children, and we're supposed to believe. I've conducted

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Speaker 1: a very intense investigation, and tonight I make the case

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Speaker 1: for Christ with me an all star panel. But first

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Speaker 1: I want to go out to a very special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us. Billy Hollowell is joining us from New York.

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Speaker 1: Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network and host of two podcasts,

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Speaker 1: Jesus and the prophecies of Christmas and quick start wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: and author of Playing with Fire and on and on.

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Speaker 1: You know what, your resume is so long. I don't

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Speaker 1: have time for that. I've got to get to the

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Speaker 1: case for Christ first. I want to query, have you noticed, Billy,

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Speaker 1: that we are so predisposed to accept other historical facts,

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Speaker 1: other historical writings. Let me see off the top of

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Speaker 1: my head, let me point to the Iliod in the

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Speaker 1: Odyssey by Homer. Now that detailed the Trojan War and

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Speaker 1: the death of the Trojan king Hector. However, Ilian and

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Speaker 1: Odyssey was not written until about four hundred years after

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Speaker 1: the Trojan War. Okay, but yet we choose to believe

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Speaker 1: it's based in fact. I just happened to notice that

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Speaker 1: the writings about Christ were contemporaneous with his life. Not

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Speaker 1: Christian writings, but Jewish writings. Listen.

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Speaker 3: Two of the most important works of the Roman Jewish

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Speaker 3: historian and military leader Flavius Josephus, our Jewish War, recounting

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Speaker 3: the Jewish Revolt against Roman occupation and Antiquities of the Jews,

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Speaker 3: that documents the history of the world from a Jewish

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Speaker 3: perspective and was written for a mostly Greek and Roman audience.

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Speaker 3: Josepha's historical works provide an independent account of individuals mentioned

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Speaker 3: in biblical texts, such as Ponscious Pilot, Herod, the Great,

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Speaker 3: John the Baptist, as well as documenting that James was

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Speaker 3: the brother of Jesus of Nazareth and that Jesus was

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Speaker 3: called the Christ.

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Speaker 1: So these ancient writings, some around the time Christ lived,

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Speaker 1: are very persuasive.

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Speaker 4: What about it, Billy, Yeah, Well, you know, some people

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Speaker 4: will say that the Jesus reference is in dispute. So

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Speaker 4: even if you move that to the side, what you

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Speaker 4: just showed there James the brother of Jesus, who was

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Speaker 4: called the Christ, that is a line that is not disputed, right,

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Speaker 4: And so what I make of that is that you

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Speaker 4: have people speaking at the very same time or very

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Speaker 4: nearby the time of Jesus. And you have to add

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Speaker 4: into that as well all of the men you mentioned.

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Speaker 4: You know, we take things at face value that are

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Speaker 4: hundreds of years old when you look at the manuscripts,

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Speaker 4: and Lee Strobelvarius stutely said this, you have five thousand

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Speaker 4: Greek New Testament fragments out there that back up precisely

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Speaker 4: what we see in Scripture. So the Bible is actually

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Speaker 4: the most backed up literature that we have, ancient literature

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Speaker 4: that we have, and people act as though that evidence

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Speaker 4: isn't there when it very clearly is.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm very curious why so many people choose to ignore,

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Speaker 1: as I call it evidence. You know, let me go

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Speaker 1: to Bishop Doctor Lodonna Osborn. She's the president and CEO

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Speaker 1: of Osborne Ministries. She's the author of God's Big Picture

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Speaker 1: and all of that aside. What impresses me the most

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Speaker 1: about the bishop is she is ministered in over one

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Speaker 1: hundred nations, among cultures completely different than her own, and

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Speaker 1: ministering to the needy bishop. Why are we so predisposed like,

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Speaker 1: if you read it in a New England medical journal,

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Speaker 1: then it's true, okay, or at least that's how I

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Speaker 1: feel bad. That's got to be true. But with all

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Speaker 1: of the historical writings about Christ that even occurred contemporaneously

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Speaker 1: with his life, many people don't want to believe that

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Speaker 1: is all just a big story. Why why are we

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Speaker 1: like that?

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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting also that people would rather be

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Speaker 5: suspicious about something that is so proven. Of course, what

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Speaker 5: you've said about my life is true and I have

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Speaker 5: been among people of every religion, every ideology, every way

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Speaker 5: of worship or would be called faith. And what is

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Speaker 5: so interesting is that this search within people for truth,

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Speaker 5: for deity, for a cosmic presence something that intrigues me.

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Speaker 5: So there is something in humanity that is searching. Now

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Speaker 5: when the subject of Jesus comes up. Why there would

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Speaker 5: be such resistance, I don't know unless there is a

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Speaker 5: spiritual dynamic. And this is where I would go, because

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Speaker 5: my faith is based on the Scripture, and I've given

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Speaker 5: my whole life bringing what we call the good news

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Speaker 5: of what Jesus Christ did for humanity to people who

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Speaker 5: are hopeless, people who are sick, people are who are

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Speaker 5: really lost and depressed and in bondage of all kinds.

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Speaker 5: I've seen more miracles of healing and deliverance than I

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Speaker 5: could ever document. But the point is, I think there

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Speaker 5: is a spiritual resistance to what is really the truth.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Hayes, This issue our human nature to doubt. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that I've seen real mirrors in life that

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Speaker 1: could not be explained in any other way than a miracle.

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Speaker 1: Yet Thomas, who had lived with Christ for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: had seen the miracles, had heard the basically the heresy

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Speaker 1: that Jesus was preaching, completely different from hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 1: of years of tradition and ideology. He saw all that,

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Speaker 1: yet he doubted. And I think that that was really intentional, Danny,

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Speaker 1: because we all doubt. We all have that in our nature.

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Speaker 1: And we see how Christ addressed it, not by ridiculing Thomas,

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Speaker 1: but by wooing him and continuing to love him. So

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Speaker 1: why is it, Danny, that we as humans choose not

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Speaker 1: to believe really hard evident in the antiquities.

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Speaker 6: Well, what I love.

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Speaker 7: About the Thomas episode is that what he doubts is

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Speaker 7: the resurrection. So as other friends, the other apostles have

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Speaker 7: seen the resurrected Jesus, but he has it. Well, the

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Speaker 7: resurrection of the dead is kind of a big, you know,

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Speaker 7: contrary to normal event, and so we can understand Thomas

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Speaker 7: having some reservations about Jesus being resurrected from the dead,

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Speaker 7: but you're absolutely right in how Jesus handles it. And

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Speaker 7: almost with some irony, Jesus picks up the same terms

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Speaker 7: of Thomas. You know, he says, only if I can touch,

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Speaker 7: you know, the nail scarred hands and Jesus says, find Thomas,

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Speaker 7: come and come and touch this, and then brings Thomas

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Speaker 7: to faith in that crucial event, the actual resurrection. So

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Speaker 7: I think that story's in there for a purpose, just

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Speaker 7: because we do we do have doubts. And you see

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Speaker 7: all of the disciples stumbling at some point or another

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Speaker 7: in their walk with Jesus, but he reaffirms them. But

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Speaker 7: they come out strengthened because of the encounter. And I

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Speaker 7: think Thomas walks away from that meeting of the Lord

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Speaker 7: looks stronger in his faith because he's actually seen the

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Speaker 7: resurrected Christ.

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Speaker 1: And touched it, joining us. Also, in addition to Billie

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Speaker 1: Hallowell and Bishop Osborne and doctor Hayes, is doctor Robert

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Speaker 1: van Vorst, Doctor van Vorst, Professor Emeridi's New Testament, Western

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Speaker 1: Theological Seminary and author of Jesus Outside the New Testament

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Speaker 1: and Introduction into Ancient Evidence. Doctor van Horse listened.

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Speaker 2: To this in Book eighteen, chapter three of Antiquities of

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Speaker 2: the Jews. Flavius Josephus writes about this time there lived

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Speaker 2: Jesus a wise man, if indeed one not to call

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Speaker 2: him a man, for he was one who performed surprising

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Speaker 2: deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept

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Speaker 2: the truth. Gladly, he won over many Jews and many

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Speaker 2: of the Greeks he was the Christ. Josephus also describes

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Speaker 2: how Jesus was condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilot,

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Speaker 2: and after his crucifixion, appeared to his followers three days later.

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Speaker 1: That is, Professor van Horst, extremely primitive in my mind,

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Speaker 1: And you have to understand where I'm coming from. As

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Speaker 1: a longtime felony prosecutor, I would never put up anything

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Speaker 1: in front of a jury that I could not prove

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Speaker 1: to a mathematical certainty, such as two and two equals four.

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Speaker 1: I can never ask the jury, look, I said it,

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Speaker 1: so you just believe it, Okay, just just trust me.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't work, and in my world that doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: So I have been on a lifetime search for evidence

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Speaker 1: to support the case for Christ. What do you think,

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Speaker 1: doctor Vnhorst?

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Speaker 6: Well, I think that you're on the right trank here, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: that Josephus and a lot of other Jewish writings give

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Speaker 6: us a good deal of evidence for saying that Jesus

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Speaker 6: actually existed, that he worked miracles. Now Jewish leaders of

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Speaker 6: the time explained those miracles differently. But miracles in a

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Speaker 6: sense they were.

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Speaker 1: Well, didn't they believe that they were magic?

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Speaker 6: Right, right? Magic done by magic or with the cooperation

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Speaker 6: of Satan. But that sort of dooms that those miracles

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Speaker 6: are in some sense real. Jesus did, as Josepha says,

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Speaker 6: wonderful things. Whether he confessed and actually believed himself that

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Speaker 6: Jesus was the Christ, you know, that's sort of a

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Speaker 6: statement that a Christian would make, and some historians have

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Speaker 6: doubted that that is actually what he thought. But anyway,

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Speaker 6: because in the other passages that he treats Jesus he

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Speaker 6: calls in the so called Christ. But anyway, we get

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Speaker 6: a lot of good evidence that Jesus is real. Yes,

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Speaker 6: that Jesus started a movement. Yes, that Jesus worked things

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Speaker 6: that are wonderful. Yes, and in the sense Jesus is

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Speaker 6: the Christ and the son of God. So these wait right.

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Speaker 1: There, you did a little bit of a jump van Horst,

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Speaker 1: because you went from ancient biblical writings, well, ancient Jewish

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Speaker 1: writings that state clearly, and this is contemporaneous with christ life,

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Speaker 1: that he did live, Okay, that he performed miracles which

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Speaker 1: they attributed to either Satan or magic. So based on

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Speaker 1: that we know he lived, we know he lived where

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Speaker 1: he said he lived at the time. The Bible says

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Speaker 1: he lived, and that he performed miracles a sort. We

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Speaker 1: know all of that. And also in these writings, if

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Speaker 1: we're to believe ancient artifacts, it's described how he was

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Speaker 1: put to death after creating a movement listen.

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Speaker 3: In his twenty volume History of the Jewish People, Flavius

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Speaker 3: Josephus identifies the victim of an unlawful execution as James,

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Speaker 3: the brother of Jesus, who is called miss Piah. Josephus

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Speaker 3: also describes a man who did surprising deeds and was

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Speaker 3: condemned to be crucified by Pilot in Annals of Imperial Rome.

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Speaker 3: First century historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions jesus crucifixion,

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Speaker 3: writing Emperor Nero falsely blamed the persons commonly called Christians,

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Speaker 3: who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of

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Speaker 3: the name, was put to death by Punch's Pilot, procurator

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Speaker 3: of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.

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Speaker 2: A piece of cloth, a slab of stone, and the

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Speaker 2: accounts of a crucifixion. Archaeologists and historians examine evidence for

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Speaker 2: the existence of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Is he real? Could he possibly have risen from the dead? Well?

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Speaker 1: What about this theory radical in some circles that Christ

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Speaker 1: had brothers and sisters? Listen.

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Speaker 2: On October twenty first, two thousand and two, the existence

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Speaker 2: of the ashwary of James, the brother of g Jesus

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Speaker 2: was announced. It's a first century limestone box that was

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Speaker 2: used for containing the bones of the dead. The authenticity

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Speaker 2: of the ashuary or bone box of James is not

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Speaker 2: in question, just the inscription engraved in Aramaic that, when translated,

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Speaker 2: means James, son of Joseph, his brother of Jesus. To

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Speaker 2: eminent paleographer specializing in dating, interpreting, and authenticating inscriptions determined

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Speaker 2: the inscription was authentic. Didn't matter that Israeli Antiquities authority

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Speaker 2: charged Obed Golan, the owner of the aushuary, with forgery.

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Speaker 2: The trial lasted seven years. Golan was acquitted and put

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Speaker 2: the ausuary on display.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if this is the ausuary or the tomb

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Speaker 1: or the box containing the remains of James, the brother

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Speaker 1: of Christ, why is it so difficult for many people

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Speaker 1: to believe that Mary mother Mary had other children. Straight

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Speaker 1: out to Billie Hollwell, what about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is interesting because obviously Catholics and Protestants have

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Speaker 4: very different ideas on this. I'm an Evangelical, so I've

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Speaker 4: always grown up without any problem seeing Jesus as having

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Speaker 4: had siblings. And in fact, I think a reading of

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Speaker 4: Scripture in multiple areas Matthew Luke Mark it talks about

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Speaker 4: Jesus's mother and brothers, and some will say, well, those

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Speaker 4: brothers were you know, cousins or they were close relatives,

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Speaker 4: but that doesn't seem to be the case when you

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Speaker 4: look at the original language. So I think it is interesting.

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Speaker 4: I think it has to do with the vision of

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Speaker 4: Mary as seeing Mary as pure, but there's nothing impure

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Speaker 4: about getting married and having children, right, And so after

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Speaker 4: she had Jesus, you left out.

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Speaker 1: A sex part billing he was actually gonna go actually married,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly there's a baby.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring that

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Speaker 4: up because in Matthew one you actually see Joseph, he

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Speaker 4: gets the message from the angel, right, and he goes

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Speaker 4: and he takes Mary home as his wife, even though

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Speaker 4: he could have not done that. I'm sure he was

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Speaker 4: terrified and petrified and angry when he found out that

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Speaker 4: she was with child. But it says in Matthew one

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Speaker 4: twenty four to twenty five, but he did not consummate

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Speaker 4: their marriage until she gave birth to a son, and

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Speaker 4: that son is Jesus. So you have that verse as well.

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Speaker 4: That definitely seems to indicate that they had other children.

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Speaker 4: They at least, did, you know, consummate their marriage at

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Speaker 4: some point.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: And I'd like to point out to doctor Danny Hayes,

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Speaker 1: that makes Mary an unwed mother. Okay, I find that

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Speaker 1: fascinating because in our society, unwed mothers are frowned upon.

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Speaker 1: They're looking down upon a horrible way. Yet, if Christ

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Speaker 1: is to be believed, which I do, he is the

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Speaker 1: product of an unwed mother. Now, I mean, how much

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Speaker 1: more clearly could Christ speak to us. He's born to

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Speaker 1: an unwed mother, to a carpenter. He becomes a carpenter, right.

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Speaker 1: And of course where he grew up there were not

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Speaker 1: a lot of trees. It's in the desert. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know what carpenter really means an odd job. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that means, then who does he pick

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Speaker 1: for his followers? Uneducated men from the waterfront, That's who

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Speaker 1: he picks. What could be more profound, it's starting a

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Speaker 1: movement that survives centuries. It's centuries and centuries, then coming

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Speaker 1: to the world like that, choosing those disciples. It really

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Speaker 1: speaks to me that if Christ would pick an unwed

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Speaker 1: mother and a group of uneducated men off the waterfront,

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Speaker 1: then maybe there's hope for the rest of us that

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Speaker 1: maybe we could fit in.

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Speaker 7: Well, you're certainly right in that the birth of Jesus

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Speaker 7: was surrounded with scandal uh and born you know, of Mary,

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Speaker 7: with the scandals that would have come with that uh,

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Speaker 7: and the the the humble beginnings and birth of Jesus,

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Speaker 7: of course, were fulfilling those prophecies of Isaiah that proclaimed

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Speaker 7: that this coming Messiah would not be born in the

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Speaker 7: king's palace but would be born with a humble origin.

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Speaker 7: So we see that fulfilling the prophecies. His life as

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Speaker 7: a carpenter, of course, taught him lots of things. You know,

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Speaker 7: while you're right about there not being a lot of trees,

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Speaker 7: we suspect he was a stone mason and growing up

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Speaker 7: in Nazareth was not but a short walk to the

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Speaker 7: big city of Sepphoris, which was under construction during that time,

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Speaker 7: and Jesus and his dad Joseph probably walked down to

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Speaker 7: Sepphoris every day and worked as Stonemasons while that city

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Speaker 7: was being constructed. So him growing up as a hard

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Speaker 7: working Stonemason with humble origins, certainly he was. He was

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Speaker 7: a Messiah and a savior that came for all people

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Speaker 7: in all situations. And never, never does the New Testament

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Speaker 7: ever suggest some kind of elitism of Christians who follow him,

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Speaker 7: But it's a call for everybody, all walks of life,

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Speaker 7: in all economic status are the ones who are called

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Speaker 7: to follow him. And he certainly understands our pain and

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Speaker 7: suffering in every situation.

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Speaker 1: You know, I want to go to Bishop doctor Lodonna

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Speaker 1: Osborne speaking of the existence of siblings again as a

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Speaker 1: lowly Methodist, I don't have a problem with that at all.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we are taught to believe that Christ is

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Speaker 1: divine and human, and it would be absolutely human to

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Speaker 1: have siblings. Now, my Catholic friends vehemently disagree with me,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like a real life Da Vinci Code scenario.

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Speaker 1: Bishop Osborne Listen.

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Speaker 2: There has long been a question about the siblings of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Testament clearly states Jesus had four brothers, James, Jude, Joseph,

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Speaker 2: and Simon. It also states Jesus had sisters plural, but

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Speaker 2: doesn't name them. After jesus death, Beryl and resurrection, James

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Speaker 2: becomes the early leader of the church in Jerusalem until

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Speaker 2: he's martyred by being thrown off the temple and club

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Speaker 2: to death or stoned. Jude, Joseph, and Simon were all

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Speaker 2: married and all became traveling evangelists. The sisters of Jesus

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Speaker 2: are not named, nor is there any specific information provided

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Speaker 2: about them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so once again the women just don't exist. But

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Speaker 1: that said, this is what I'm talking about, a real

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Speaker 1: life Da Vinci Code scenario. Listen.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that blood descendants of Jesus Christ brothers

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Speaker 2: and sisters exist today? Maybe it depends on the denomination Catholics,

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Speaker 2: absolutely not other Christian nominations. Maybe Joseph was not jesus

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Speaker 2: biological father, but Mary is his biological mother. Each of

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Speaker 2: his blood brothers was a half brother, and each of

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Speaker 2: their children would have been a partial blood relative of Jesus. However,

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Speaker 2: following the natural family tree, all humans come from Adam

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Speaker 2: and Eve, and in that regard we are all related.

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Speaker 1: To dot Evanhorst. What do you make the calcitrants to

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Speaker 1: believe that Christ had brothers and sisters? And if that

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Speaker 1: is true, wouldn't there be evidence of their lives? Much

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Speaker 1: as we see James burial box.

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Speaker 6: Right, we have evidence that Jesus did have brothers and

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Speaker 6: sisters in scripture and in archaeology. The much larger question

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Speaker 6: about whether any of them their descendants still exist today.

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Speaker 6: That would really take sort of a DNA test, and

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Speaker 6: I'm sort of wondering how would that be done and

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Speaker 6: is it in fact provable, you know, if you're talking

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Speaker 6: about physical descent. But I like the bishop's idea that

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Speaker 6: in Christ, in faith, we are all brothers and sisters

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Speaker 6: of Jesus Christ, and that for us is probably the

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Speaker 6: much bigger and more important religious question than sort of

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Speaker 6: the Da Vinci Code mystery that some descendants of Mary

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Speaker 6: could still be walking on the face of the earth,

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Speaker 6: and the religious significance of that pales in comparison with

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Speaker 6: present faith in Jesus, which makes us brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy grace.

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Speaker 8: Drout of Turin has been the source of argument and

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Speaker 8: study since it was first on display in thirteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 8: In twenty twenty two, researchers in Italy using a new

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Speaker 8: dating technique known as wide angle X ray scattering, indicated

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Speaker 8: that the shroud was about two thousand years old. The

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Speaker 8: shroud is kept in a climate controlled case in the

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Speaker 8: cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The

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Speaker 8: shroud is only rarely displayed. The last time was in

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Speaker 8: twenty fifteen, but is expected to be on display in

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty five as part of a jubilee twenty twenty

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Speaker 8: five Holy Year.

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Speaker 1: Is Christ real? Many argue the Shroud of Turin offers

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Speaker 1: proof that he is, while others say no, it's a hoax.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Guy Powell, host of the Backstory on

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Speaker 1: the Shroud of Turin and author of the Only Witness,

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Speaker 1: A History of the Shroud of Turin. Guy, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Tell me the pros and the

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Speaker 1: cons of the Shroud of Turan.

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Speaker 9: Well, the pros are that it has an image on

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Speaker 9: a cloth, and some would say it's miraculous. For those

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Speaker 9: of us that believe that the shroud is authentic. That

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Speaker 9: image that you see there has a face, it has

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Speaker 9: a body, It has the whip marks, it has the

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Speaker 9: wounds in the hands, and in the side, the side

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Speaker 9: that Thomas put his fingers on, it has wounds in

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Speaker 9: the feet. All of those wounds reflect the story that's

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Speaker 9: found in the gospels, and in particular, the one that's

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Speaker 9: also in the Gospels that you don't see on other

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Speaker 9: crucifixion historical evidence is the crown of thorns, and that

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Speaker 9: may be the one historical difference that really helps to

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Speaker 9: prove first of all the gospel stories and then that

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Speaker 9: the shroud of Turin is real. Now there are some skeptics, Well,

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Speaker 9: there's a lot of skeptics. There's been various different studies done,

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Speaker 9: one on radioactivity and using radiocarbon dating, and this latest

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Speaker 9: study that you mentioned, the waxs the white area X

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Speaker 9: ray scattering, seems to prove with many, many, many other

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Speaker 9: studies that the shroud is two thousand years old, that

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Speaker 9: there is blood on it, that it reflects the gospel story,

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Speaker 9: and therefore is to a very high likelihood the authentic

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Speaker 9: burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Okay, guy, I think a lot of people have the

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Speaker 1: same question I did when I first learned about the shroud.

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Speaker 1: How did Christ's image end up on the cloth?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, that is a that is you know, one of

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Speaker 9: the challenges that Shroud Authenticis have is and that's actually

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Speaker 9: I think good news is we have not been able,

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Speaker 9: as scientists, been able to figure out what caused that image,

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Speaker 9: and so that kind of says that the image is

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Speaker 9: not a man made image. There are no man made

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Speaker 9: techniques that can make that image the way it's found

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Speaker 9: on the shroud. So therefore, is it a miraculous image?

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Speaker 9: I personally believe it is. It is to me the

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Speaker 9: only witness to the resurrection, the singular event that that

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Speaker 9: proves Christianity, that that Christ was both man and God.

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Speaker 9: And that image then, because it's miraculous, is you know,

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Speaker 9: probably will never be proven by man that what caused

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Speaker 9: it or how to recreate it. It's just a it's

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Speaker 9: an enigma that I don't think we'll be able to solve,

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Speaker 9: at least not with current technology. But it definitely shows

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Speaker 9: the divine potentially the divine nature and then the human

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Speaker 9: nature that that is Christ.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Guy Powell, for those looking for evidence, I'm going

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Speaker 1: thrill you a hard question. Let me push you on

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Speaker 1: the cross examination, hot seat. Isn't it true that certain

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Speaker 1: test performed on the shroud of Turin revealed let me

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Speaker 1: just refer to as paint or paint related objects that

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Speaker 1: are not that old. Yes, that is correct.

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Speaker 9: One of the things that happened over it's the shroud's

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Speaker 9: history was well, one of the things if you step back,

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Speaker 9: if you touch a relic, whatever touches, that becomes what's

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Speaker 9: called a secondary relic. And so what people would do is.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, wait a minute. What to me, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like transferred DNA. Okay, are you trying to say

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Speaker 1: and regular people talk? Okay, Remember, we're making a case

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Speaker 1: for christ I'm not talking about what I want to believe,

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Speaker 1: what I'm comfortable believing. I'm talking about evidence, evidence that

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Speaker 1: supports what we believe as Christians. Okay, because it's very

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Speaker 1: hard for me to sit around a Christmas tree or

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Speaker 1: a Nativity scene if I don't really believe. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: those particles on the shroud of Turin, which are not

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Speaker 1: around the time of his death, we know that from

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Speaker 1: carbon fourteen. You do believe in carbon fourteen testing, right, guy, Powell,

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Speaker 1: I do absolutely. That's a yes name So yes, you trust,

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Speaker 1: you trust carbon fourteen. Don't make me cut your mic,

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Speaker 1: not on Christmas Eve, please, You do believe in carbon fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Some of those particles were carbon fourteen tested and they

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Speaker 1: showed that they are from much much, much later, centuries

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Speaker 1: later after Christ's death. Now, isn't it also true, Guy Powell,

431
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: that you believe, as do I, that those more recent

432
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: particles were from the storage of the shroud. In other words,

433
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: if I put this piece of paper down, it's going

434
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: to collect the DNA off where you know, the particles

435
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: from where I place it. So the theory is that

436
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: those more recent particles are from the storage method.

437
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 9: Well, and that's where I was getting to is if

438
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 9: that piece of paper that you put down had paint

439
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 9: on it, that would transfer paint over to the shroud itself,

440
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 9: and so those paint particles that you're talking about would

441
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 9: have been transferred from another painted cloth that was made

442
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 9: as a replica. Now, you also mentioned the carbon fourteen dating.

443
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 9: That is the I do believe that carbon fourteen dating

444
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 9: is correct. The challenge is that the carbon fourteen dating

445
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 9: that was done on the shroud was done very improperly,

446
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 9: they didn't follow protocol, and it's possible that the sample

447
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 9: that they took was in an area that had been

448
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 9: repaired with modern material. And therefore the unfortunately that carbon

449
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 9: dating that was done really needs to be thrown out,

450
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 9: and all evidence points to the fact that it should

451
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 9: be thrown out. They did the statistics wrong, they hid

452
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 9: the data. And the end of the day, would.

453
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: They hide the data on the Shroud of Turin? Exactly?

454
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 9: Why would they hide the data when we find that out?

455
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: Who shot JFK? Who knows why the government hides anything?

456
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: But that said, Guy Powell, are you satisfied that the

457
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: Shroud of Turin's attacks have been It's proved absolutely.

458
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 9: I think there has not been one attack that has

459
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 9: been proven to one hundred percent that the shroud is false.

460
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 9: Every attack that's made, whether there's paint down there, whether

461
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 9: there's radiocarbonating, every one of those has been proven to

462
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 9: be false. And then you have, you know, many, many

463
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 9: tens of tests that have been done that do indicate

464
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 9: that it is from the first century and it dates

465
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 9: to the first century. So so far, there has not

466
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 9: been one valid scientific proof to be able to say

467
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 9: that the shroud itself is not authentic.

468
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: Researchers have pointed out that there are no records for

469
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: ninety nine percent of the people that served in the

470
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: Roman Empire, but there is evidence of Jesus found in

471
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: an ancient piece of graffiti known as alex Amino's Graffito,

472
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: carved into the wall of a room near the Palatine

473
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: Hill in Rome somewhere between the first and third centuries AD.

474
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: The drawing is of a man and worshiping a donkey

475
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: headed man hanging from across with the message that translates

476
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: to alex Aminos worships his God. A leading authority on

477
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: archaeology of early Christianity, doctor Jonathan Reed, tells The Daily Mail,

478
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: the earliest evidence we have in the archaeological record for

479
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: Christians is someone making fun of Jesus being crucified.

480
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: That actually hurts me to think of someone making fun

481
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: of Christ dying on a cross. The Christian theory is

482
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: that Christ allowed himself to be crucified so that now,

483
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: centuries and centuries later, when we face death, we will

484
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: have no fear because we know he endured the very

485
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: same thing, if not worse, and lived on two Doctor

486
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: Robert van Vorst joining us Professor Meredith New Testament Western

487
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: Theological Seminary and author of Jesus Outside the New Testament,

488
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: Doctor van Vorst, I want to fling to you as

489
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: best as I can. I mean, you guys are the experts,

490
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: not ma'am's trial lawyer. Why this evidence, the graffiti mocking Christ,

491
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: to me is the most probative. Why unlike people, not

492
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: you guy Powell, of course, that advanced the legitimacy of

493
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: the craft of the Shroud of Turin. Not other people

494
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: invested in continuing the faith. They got a dog in

495
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: the fight, right, they got skin in the game. This

496
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: guy has nothing in it. This is graffiti carved onto

497
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: a wall actually mocking Christ's crucifixion and people bowing down

498
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: to worship him. And this was at the time of Christ.

499
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: I find that considering the source to be more probative

500
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: than a preacher or a nun. This is a non

501
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: believer who is accepting the story of Christ and even

502
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: mocking it.

503
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 6: Well, that's right. The whole graffito there points quite clearly

504
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 6: that Jesus was known to be crucified, that this crucified

505
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 6: figure is worshiped by Alexamanos and of course he is

506
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 6: made fun of in this graffito. Alexaminos is a young

507
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 6: man and probably this graffito was put on the wall

508
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 6: of a school or a building there on the Palatine Hill.

509
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 6: And if you go to Rome today, you should go

510
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 6: to the Palatine Museum and see that, because it's really

511
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 6: quite striking and it testifies to us that Jesus was

512
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 6: known widely in the ancient world, especially in Rome, as

513
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 6: someone who was crucified, and his crucifixion called forth worst

514
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 6: from his followers.

515
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting the way you just said that,

516
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: doctor van Vorst, because people were crucified, that was not

517
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: uncommon in the time upon just pilot, but people all

518
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: the others that were crucified didn't get worshiped that since

519
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: Christ apart. So I'm not at this point. I don't

520
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: think anyone doubts that Christ existed. It's in all of

521
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: the ancient Jewish manuscripts and more. We don't have any

522
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: question that he was crucified. It's the resurrection part that

523
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: is the let me just say, fly in the ointment.

524
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: But here in this graffiti we see it's being made

525
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: fun of. Of course, that Christ is actually being worshiped.

526
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: Why why is he different from everybody else that was crucified,

527
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: whether on cold Gotha or not, Because he is and

528
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: was different. Okay, far from some old a graffiti. Now

529
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: an incredible mosaic has emerged.

530
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: Listen to this, located beneath the floor of an Israeli prison,

531
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: an eighteen hundred year old mosaic featuring the first ridden

532
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: declaration of Jesus as God. The mosaic is five hundred

533
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: and eighty one square feet and decorated the world's first

534
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: prayer haul in two thirty eight deep. It contains the

535
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: ancient Greek phrase the god loving Aceptus has offered the

536
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial. Carlos Campos,

537
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: the CEO of the Museum of the Bible, which recently

538
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: exhibited the mosaic, hailed it as the greatest discovery since

539
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: the Dead Sea scrolls.

540
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: The prosecution's case for Christ, did he exist? I say yes,

541
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: and I am schooled, schooled in bringing forth believable, incredible evidence.

542
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: What about eyewitnesses? Yes, I know at a court of

543
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: law one eyewitness can easily be attacked. Were you wearing glasses?

544
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: How far away were you? What were the lighting conditions

545
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: that night. Isn't it true you have had cataracts in

546
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: your left eye? Blah blah blah. But what about five

547
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: hundred witnesses joining a bishop? Doctor LaDonna Osborne? Could you

548
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: speak to the hundreds of witnesses that saw Christ after

549
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: the resurrection?

550
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 10: Yes, that documentation giving evidence to the resurrection is undeniable.

551
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 10: And then we can back it up to those who

552
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 10: walked with Jesus in his earthly life and saw his miracles,

553
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 10: heard his teaching, saw the divine and human expression of

554
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 10: his life, and then they wrote. I know there's questions

555
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 10: about actual authorship, but they were eyewitnesses that wrote and

556
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 10: documented what we can call ancient literature. It still has survived,

557
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 10: and Nancy, I think the fact that the Bible has

558
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 10: even come to us in spite of all the human intervention,

559
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 10: that's a miracle by itself.

560
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: So yes, it really is, Bishop Osborne. Billy Holwell, what

561
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: about it? I agree or disagree with Lodonna regarding hundreds

562
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: of witnesses as my job to attack witnesses in court,

563
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: that's my job, and I believe my questions. I believe

564
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: I'm doing the right thing. But five hundred witnesses. And

565
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: another thing Hallowell people at that time, Billy Hallowell chose

566
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: rather than denounce Christ, they chose to go into hiding,

567
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: living in caves, uprooting their families because they saw him.

568
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: Now that is certainly in dish of credibility, Billy.

569
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 4: I mean, would any sane person go to a brutal death?

570
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 4: From what we know from tradition, John may be the

571
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 4: only one who didn't have a brutal death, who had

572
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 4: a peaceful death right all of his direct followers. But

573
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 4: I want to address that question about the five hundred,

574
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 4: because when you look at First Corinthians, which is where

575
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: that story is, Paul probably wrote that around a D.

576
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 4: Fifty five. Jesus died around a D. Thirty three. Let's say,

577
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 4: so you're talking about twenty some odd years here. So

578
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 4: most of the people that were in that five hundred,

579
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 4: the Bible actually tells us a good chunk of them

580
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 4: we're still alive. So here is Paul writing a letter

581
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 4: making an outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead

582
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 4: and appeared to five hundred people. And where are all

583
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 4: the people to say, no, you're crazy, No, this is wrong.

584
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 4: Everything we've documented in this show. There are people mocking,

585
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 4: there are people calling Jesus a sorcerer, but nobody is

586
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 4: denying these stories. Really right, We're not seeing denials. We're

587
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 4: seeing people misplace what's happening, or have it wrong. I

588
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 4: think it's pretty remarkable that Paul would write that letter

589
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 4: with those people, hundreds of them very likely alive. It's

590
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 4: a pretty bold thing to do if you're making up

591
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 4: a lie. I find that one of the most compelling

592
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: pieces of Scripture.

593
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: According to the Gospel, we are asked to live in faith.

594
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: Doubt Ors say, well, why can't we just have proof.

595
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: I guess if we had proof then we would be

596
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: We wouldn't have no free will, because it would be

597
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: force fed to us. I think Christ asks for the faithful,

598
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: not the robots who simply regurgitate what they've been fed.

599
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 1: How do you explain that, doctor, doctor van.

600
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 6: Vorst Well, I think that to look at the life

601
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 6: of the disciples is good and the way that they

602
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 6: died in faith and in obedience to Christ. Very early

603
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 6: it became a point of belief that because Jesus died

604
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 6: for us, we should be willing to die for him.

605
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 6: And when you look at all the thousands of martyrs

606
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 6: in early Christian times who died for the faith. This

607
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 6: was impressive to other people. Even the Roman writer Tacitus,

608
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 6: whom we quoted earlier when he described Neuronians Nero's persecution

609
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 6: of Christians, said that a lot of people began to

610
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 6: be sympathetic to Christians because they realized that Nero was

611
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 6: going way over the top with us, and he was crucive.

612
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 6: He was killing people in cruel ways for things that

613
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 6: did not deserve death. And this was impressive to other people,

614
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 6: you know, so much so that the early Christian theologian

615
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 6: Tertullian said very famously the blood of the martyrs is

616
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 6: the seed of the church. That the more they were killed,

617
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 6: the more attention they got, the more faith was elicited

618
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 6: in other people. And they had such a strong belief

619
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 6: not only in Jesus dying for them, but Jesus was

620
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 6: raised from the dead by God eternally, that the same

621
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 6: thing would happen for them, that martyrdom would lead to

622
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 6: resurrection and eternal life for christ.

623
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: We could argue about so called evidence till we're blue

624
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: in the faith, but to many it's a matter of faith.

625
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: Nothing in the world is usually black or white. So

626
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: many things cannot be proven, such as two and two

627
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: equals four to a mathematical certainty. But it's very probative

628
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: that in that time disciples and many others chose to

629
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: die horrible deaths then recount the life, the crucifixion, and

630
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: the resurrection of Christ. I would submit that to a

631
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: jury as probative. At this Christmas season, the truth of Christ.

632
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: It's still in question for many, but as you gather

633
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: around your Christmas tree, it's certainly something to not only question,

634
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: to consider, but hopefully to believe. Merry Christmas,