1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against miners, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. You've probably heard about 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight procuring an underage girl for sex. 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: In July of last year, he was arrested on charges 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking. 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: He was found dead in prison in August. In addition 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton, 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seven, 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: Ronan Farrow published an expose in The New Yorker that 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: found that the ma Stituts Institute of Technology or m 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: i T, had a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein than 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: it had previously acknowledged, even as officials knew he was 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: a convicted sex offender, and that the university went to 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: great lengths to cover it up. Now here's just some 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: of what Pharaoh found. Even though Epstein was disqualified and 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: m I t S official donor database, the Media Lab 23 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: continued to accept money from him, consulted him about the 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 1: use of funds, and by marking his contributions as anonymous, 25 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly and within the university. 26 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: Epstein appeared to act as a go between for wealthy 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: donors like Bill Gates to pump money into m I T. 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: According to Pharaoh, m I t s efforts to conceal 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: be named. Whistle Blower Sidney Swinson, a former m I 32 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: T Development associate, told Pharaoh that the Lab's leadership made 33 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: it explicit even in her earliest days with them, that 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: Epstein's donations had to be kept secret. Staffords knew about 35 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: m I t s relationship with Epstein. Prominent faculty advisor 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's piece was published. 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: Joy Eto, the director of the m I T Media 38 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: Lab resigned in the latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein. 39 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: M I T is opening an investigation into its ties 40 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: to the financier and convicted sex offender. The announcement came 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: just one day after The New Yorker revealed that m 42 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: I T S Media Lab was attempting to conceal donations 43 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: from Epstein. Now, there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, 44 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: but this story isn't really about him. It's about courage, 45 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: community and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes, 46 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: and most people credit Roman Pharaoh with bringing their full 47 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: scope to light. But even before Rodan Pharaoh's piece was published, 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: women in the m I T community spoke up and 49 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: we should honor their voices too. To the Future, m 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: I T S Media Lab a place that follows crazy 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: ideas wherever they may leave. We get to think about 52 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: the future. What does the world look like ten years, 53 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: twenty years, thirty years, which should it look like? The 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: m I T Media Lab is an important place. CBS 55 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: even dubbed at the future Factory, and it's more technologists. 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 1: Ottawatamboya knew she had to be Yeah, I came here 57 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: because it is sort of a place for misfits, the 58 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: Media Lab. It is into disciptionary and has sort of 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: the intersection of tech and art and design, and that 60 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: was what I was looking for when I graduated from 61 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: undergrad UM. I worked for a couple of years back 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: and I will be where I'm from and became a 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: VR developer on the side on top of my job 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: and needed I was sort of like looking for somewhere 65 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: to find myself UM and I'd heard about the Media 66 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: Lab and how sort of uh civic minded. One of 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: the groups was called Civic Media and our motto is 68 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: tech for Social Change, and I was like, well, that 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: sounds like exactly what I want to do. Yes, I 70 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: applied and then it worked out. Ottawa was raised and 71 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: shaped by a community of strong, resilient women, and that 72 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: upbringing has been a big part of how she shows 73 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: up to the world today. Yeah, for sure. I mean, 74 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: my work is always about women, and it's always about 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: It's always about women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit 76 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: more general than than that. But I have worked in 77 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: my robe in my whole life. I've studied away from 78 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: my robe, but always try to bring back my research 79 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: and the questions that I'm asking too home and the 80 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: women that I've worked with in informal sentiments in Kenya. 81 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: But you know, that's just my research. But how I 82 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: approached studying and how I approach being in big institutions 83 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: is definitely sort of inspired by how I was raised 84 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: by my mom and my grandma and I have like 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: a thousand aunts. Um grew up in something of the matriarchy, 86 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: I would say so, yeah, for sure. So you were 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: raised in a community of strong, badass women. Yeah, and 88 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: like the scary ones too, so like we look at 89 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: them with a lot of love and admiration but also 90 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: a lot of fear. Audible works with virtual reality, so 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: that means she has to be able to imagine worlds 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: that haven't even been seeing yet. It's a spirit that 93 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: drives her both personally and professionally. Do you think that 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: that sort of work has helped you kind of imagine 95 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: a future where things can be better than they are? Yeah, 96 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: I think so, I would say so. I think I've 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: always sort of had that in me before I started 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: playing on b R and and and and I think 99 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: those projects are sort of things that are already within me. 100 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: As opposed to things that have made me think a 101 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just 102 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men. 103 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: Actually my grand both my grandpa's are fantastic men and 104 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: have been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya 105 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: differently that, yeah, I would say, it's totally in me. 106 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: And you know, when I row that, it wasn't even 107 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: so much that I was so when I was sort 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: of talking against my director, it wasn't even so much 109 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: that I was imagining a different future. It was more 110 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: like this current present isn't Something is off, something is 111 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up 112 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: is if somebody's not right, you fix it or you 113 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: say something about it, but you don't sit around and 114 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: do nothing. As a grad student in the Media Lab, 115 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: Ottawa published a piece in the Tech m I T 116 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: Student publication about the university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, 117 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: she called for the resignation of Joy Itto, the head 118 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: of the m I T Media Lab. Her piece brand 119 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would go on to echo her 120 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: points in his New York or expose on September seven. 121 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: The only difference is Ottawa call for Itto to resign, 122 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: and after Pharaoh's piece was published, he actually did Did 123 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: you ever feel like people have an easier time taking 124 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: this situation seriously when it's reported by a white man? 125 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate Ronan Farwer's 126 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: work a lot, and we actually got to meet him 127 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: and we kind of talked about this. But you know, 128 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: Senior Spencer, and she was the real hero of the story. 129 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean, she was the actual whistle blower. And sometimes 130 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: people treat me like I was a whistle blower when 131 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: I didn't whistle blow anything. I just have the same 132 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: information that everybody else had and sort of said my 133 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: opinion about it. And for sure, I mean, even on 134 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: the comments on my article, like there were so many 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: comments I had to do with my race and ethnicity 136 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: and where I'm from, as opposed to you know, not 137 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: agreeing with me and my ideas. It was very much like, well, 138 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: you're not from America, you don't know what we're talking about. 139 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: And then Ronan Farrell writes this article and of course 140 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: everyone just jump ship. And you know, I totally understood 141 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: my director resigning after that I was just more shocked 142 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: of how many people said, oh, we were wrong after 143 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: the article, because to me, it's kind of like we 144 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: already had that information beforehand, and people had made up 145 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: those decision in their decision to support him at that point. 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: And it's only when a powerful and not just white man, 147 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: a powerful white man writes about it that it's enough 148 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: to sort of sway people's opinions or feelings were at 149 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: least they're vocal ones. So I heard an NPR interview 150 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: where you described your meeting with Edo, where he basically said, 151 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: I agree with all the things that you're saying. All 152 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: the things that you say I did. I totally did. 153 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose 154 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: my job over it. Yeah, And there were a lot 155 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: of people who felt that way, and a lot of 156 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: people will still feel that way because he kind of 157 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: was the heart of the Media Lab and a lot 158 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: of people depended on him for their projects, for funding, 159 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: for you know, other people were coming into the Media 160 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: Lab for the first time under his leadership, So it 161 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: makes sense that some people feel that way. I think 162 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: the Ronan Pharaoh thing was interesting because we had that 163 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: conversation one afternoon, and then it was that same afternoon 164 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: that Ronan Iris article dropped, So he between our meeting 165 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: and him resigning was maybe four or five hours, like 166 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: really know ledge, Yeah, um, so you know it was. 167 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: It was overall like really shocking. But to me, that's 168 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: again a power thing. It's a totally different situation if 169 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: one first year massive student who you know, has no 170 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: power whatsoever says you should resign, and it's a totally 171 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: different thing if Ronan Pharaoh comes after you, and he 172 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: had he has a lot of unstake. It's not just 173 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: his job at the media lab. He has a lot 174 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: of venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that 175 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: I think must have been in his head to protect. 176 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I don't know what it was 177 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: that made him cave in at that moment. It's easy 178 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: to think about marginalized people who speak up in these 179 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers being pretty 180 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength from the 181 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: courage of other women and girls on the continent. The 182 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: fear I was feeling was actually from my mom, because 183 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: she didn't want me to write the article, and I 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: don't like disagreeing with my mom, but we just did 185 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: on this particular issue, and she was coming from a 186 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: perspective of fear or trying to take care of her 187 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: baby that she sent to America to study, Like you know, 188 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: that she was scared that something that had happened to 189 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: my degree, or that I might lose my visa or 190 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: something and not be able to finish. But I don't know, 191 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: I didn't have that fear so much. And I had 192 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: just happened to be reading a really amazing book called 193 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: Beneath the Time or in Tree, which is that is 194 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: to say of CNN about the Baco Iran Bring Back 195 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of courage 196 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: there was so wild that it just so happened that 197 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: this is all happening at the same time, and I'm 198 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: seeing myself as such a small player and seeing the 199 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: thing that I want to do is not that big 200 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: compared to some of the things that these girls went 201 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: through and some of the things that they fought for 202 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: again literal terrorists, And I was like, Okay, if they 203 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: have this kind of courage to stand in with a 204 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: gun to their face and not change their religion because 205 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: it's what they believe in. Then if I believe in 206 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: this thing, then you know, the least I can do 207 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: is say it with my chest, you know. Um, So 208 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: that was how I was feeling. So I was actually 209 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: feeling like kind of empowered inspired while I was writing it. 210 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: I sometimes describe myself as a radical feminist, but there's 211 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: nothing radical about it. It's just that the word feminists 212 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: sometimes seems radical to people. But I just am a 213 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: product of so many amazing women that it's not shocking 214 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: that I search for even more inspiration from other women 215 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: on the continent, around the world. After her letter calling 216 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: for Eto to resign was published, things got rough for Ottawa. 217 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: So what was the climate like for you at M 218 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 1: I t after you published your piece? Who um, it's so. 219 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: I mean the very next day or the day after 220 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: I published this article, like a website comes out saying 221 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: we support your retail and it's signed by like, you know, 222 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and 223 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: it's signed by all you know, my colleagues and all 224 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: these people, and it's a direct response to my one article. 225 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting, 226 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, some not nice comments, but I was able 227 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it 228 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: really highlated to me how fearful people can get when 229 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: you speak the truth, or when you say your own truth. 230 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: Because for me, a whole website springing up with like 231 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because 232 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and 233 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: that student has no power, Like I don't know why 234 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: there was so much fear or so much anger or 235 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: so much defense because nobody else else. There was lots 236 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: of articles about it. There was lots of articles that 237 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: were very nonpartisan and saying what happened, but nobody asked 238 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: for him to be resigned to resign except me. And 239 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: it's almost as if like that one statement of that 240 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: one article, like it was like a way through the 241 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: media lab and everyone was like pushing back, as if 242 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: what I said might sort of break the whole media 243 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: lab or make it fall apart um, and some people 244 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: until today, I think it's my fault, like for sure, 245 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: and you know, there's nothing I can do about that, 246 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to sort of try to pand 247 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: it to those people. But I don't know. It just 248 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: showed me. It really taught me. The power of words. 249 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're 250 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: back by establishing financial relationships with respective organizations like m I. 251 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: T Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, 252 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: protection and most of importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got 253 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: the protection of that kind of power, it can be 254 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: hard to penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money. 255 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: All of it makes it harder for people who exist 256 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: outside of that power to speak out about bad behavior. 257 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: Why do you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? 258 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: Do you think it was just the money and they 259 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: didn't care where it came from, or do you think 260 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: it was something else. I know that some people knew 261 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: and some people didn't know, so I can really only 262 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: speak for the person that I know for sure knew, 263 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: which is Joey, and the rest I don't know. And 264 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: you know he he wielded a lot of power in 265 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: this lab. We do know for a fact that there 266 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: were people who who including my advisor Ethan's recommend who 267 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: spoke out and said that this was not a good 268 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: idea and said that we shouldn't take money from Epstein, 269 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: and they were ignored. I mean, the hard core truth 270 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: is that money is power, and there is a massive 271 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're going 272 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: to get power by ignoring them. I think the other 273 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that he 274 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I think 275 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: a lot of the money that was and m I 276 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: T report just came out on the funding issue and 277 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: we found out that Joey was actually trying to secure 278 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: much bigger part of funding for his own venture capital 279 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: funds UM, So huge incentive to ignore what was sort 280 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: of on the surface UM. And then the other thing 281 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: is just I don't think men get it all the time, 282 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: Like I don't think I sometimes I really think that 283 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: some people thought that it's just not that big a 284 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: deal because they have no understanding on what that relationship 285 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: even in and of itself. But without money means for 286 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: the victims of Epstein's they have no idea how this 287 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: consolidation of power represses the victims in silence system. It 288 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: almost sounds like Epstein was trying to use his money 289 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: to kind of create this cover so that if anybody 290 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: ever tried to call him out on his actions, he 291 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: could just be like oh, well, look at all these 292 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: powerful influential men I surround myself with. In some ways 293 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: was really smart because he didn't actually have that much money. 294 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't a Bill Gates, but had enough to sort 295 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: of know the right people and actually build a social 296 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen, and 297 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: it was so strong that everybody wanted to be a 298 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: part of it. And it was Epstein's name that you 299 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: had to know to get sort of in that circle. 300 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: Ottawa still thinks highly at m I T, but the 301 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: backlash she faced for speaking out against Joto showed her 302 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: that things are not always as shiny as they look 303 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: from the outside. And I think the media of you know, 304 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: it's hard because I love this place, like I've had 305 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: a fantastic two years. I've learned so much, I've grown 306 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: so much, and I wouldn't change it for anything. But 307 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: I think this experience has just been such an example 308 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: of that because it's so shiny on the outside, like 309 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: it's so glamorous, everyone wants to be here. But that 310 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: doesn't that doesn't mean that we don't have issues institutional 311 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: issues with power and race and class and all these 312 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: other things. That might make the place, so I'm not 313 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: so amazing. Do you think that there should be more 314 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: scrutiny on other powerful men who had like financial entanglements 315 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: with Epstein. I feel like a lot of them have 316 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: sort of been able to skirt public scrutiny and like 317 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: public question asking about what what exactly their dealings with 318 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: this person were. Oh, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I think 319 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: you know from the out because I mean, because I 320 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: can't speak for much more than M I T. But 321 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: I know, you know, even Harvard had relations took a 322 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: lot of money from Epstein, but they just declined to 323 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: even talk about it, and so it just they sort 324 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: of took the mom path and everyone forgot about it, 325 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: whereas at M I T. It was so widely talked about. 326 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: And Epstein's network is so extensive that going through every 327 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: single man who interacted with him, or woman for that 328 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: for that matter, actually who interacted with him and took 329 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: money from him, and what they knew and how they 330 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: knew it is extremely difficult. So I don't know how 331 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: to do that, But there should be a way larger 332 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: conversation around these networks of power, whether we isolate individuals 333 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: within them or not, And I think that also has 334 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: a lot to do with who's willing to speak, who's 335 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: willing to come forward with information, because the less you know, 336 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: when we don't know anything, all we can do is speculate, 337 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: and they have power, and that doesn't really work. So yeah, 338 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like everyone should be held accountable, 339 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: for sure, but it's I don't even know where you 340 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: start with Epstein. You know, I almost wonder if this 341 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: is part of the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his 342 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: money in so many powerful places and hands and institutions 343 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: that untangling it almost seems kind of impossible. Yeah, And 344 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm a firm believe of nothing is impossible. But you know, 345 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: there's such a close link. And I'm not saying that 346 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: anyone who took his money did anything more than that, 347 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: but there is, you know, especially with the people who 348 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: are closer with him, there is a link with those 349 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: people and victims, you know, And I think right now 350 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: what needs to happen is that the victims narratives need 351 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: to be centered, you know, and the people who have 352 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: been hurt by Epstein need to have space to say, 353 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, this is how I was hurt, This is 354 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: feeling this is what I need to recover and sort 355 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: of if they feel up for it, these are the 356 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: people who hurt me. Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit 357 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: that people and institutions that mean a lot to us 358 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: are actually fostering abusive behavior. Joy was a beloved figure 359 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: at m I T. And that made it that much 360 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: harder for the community to reckon with the fact that 361 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: he enabled, benefited from, and covered up for an abuser. 362 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and 363 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: inspiration and resource to the media lab students that and 364 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: and faculty that people didn't want to believe that, you know, 365 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: he had done this thing that they didn't agree with, 366 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: And it was much easier if we just said, okay, 367 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: let's sweep it under the rug and move on and 368 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that 369 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: to some degree. But you know, the world is like 370 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always 371 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies, 372 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: like it's always it always comes from the bottom up, 373 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: like it's always that change in institution is never going 374 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: to happen by the people who for who the institution 375 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: is working, and the media was working. For me, it wasn't. 376 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: And I was having a great time, but I didn't 377 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: have the same feelings about the director that most of 378 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't actually giving 379 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: up I don't know, funding for a specific project by 380 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: calling him out. So in other ways, it was easier 381 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: for me than I you know, I get why it 382 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: was easier for me than other people. But for a 383 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: place that calls itself the future factory, for a place 384 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: that prides itself in imagining and creating the future literally 385 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: like or, the standard has got to be higher, and 386 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective, 387 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: but from a human perspective too. And so this is 388 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: where it starts to look like the Academy Awards. And 389 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: so first I want to invite up the winners of 390 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: the two fifty thousand dollar Disobedience Award, the second largest 391 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: cast prize and m I T I would say, after 392 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: the Lemilson Award for Innovation, um so Taranto Burke and 393 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: Sherry Marts and Deathan Mclaw could's come up with this award. 394 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: We are recognizing their leadership and dedication in amplifying the 395 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: voices of survivors of sexual violence and harassment, vommending positive 396 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: change towards gender equality, and demonstrating defiance in the face 397 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: of oppression and apathy. Thank you very much. In m 398 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: I T started the Disobedience Award, a yearly award given 399 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: to people in tech who speak truth to power. The 400 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: award came with a two hundred and fifty thou dollars 401 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: and no strings attached prize in it was awarded to 402 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: me to Creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin and share 403 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: A mart as representatives of me Too and the me 404 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: to Instep movement that highlighted people speaking up against sexual 405 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass orb and, 406 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: in a particularly disgusting piece of irony, because of his 407 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: financial contributions to m I T, convicted sex offender and 408 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award 409 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: that same year two. I know you're infuriated now, but 410 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: this is where the story gets a little bit brighter. 411 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: My friend Sabrina her Seisa is the kind of person 412 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: I hope that you all have in your lives. Mentor 413 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: doesn't really cover just how impactful she's been in my 414 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: own life. She's a human rights technologist and the founder 415 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,479 Speaker 1: of b Bold Media, and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting 416 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: other women or speaking truth to power, even when she 417 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: gets shipped for it. Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, 418 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: but she did read her story. Friend of mine set 419 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: me a link to Ottawa's off ed in the uh 420 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: Might student newspaper, and when I read it, I thought 421 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: it was so At first, I thought this was so 422 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: beautifully written, and it was written from a place of 423 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: love and um and leadership, and from clearly this was 424 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: the voice of someone who cares deeply, not just for 425 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: women and children, but also for community. And then I 426 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: saw the art of how her off ed was being 427 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: received in m tea community and in the broader technology community, 428 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 1: and that is when things started to not sit well 429 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: with me. In our bridget our start women in technology community, 430 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: I saw Ottawa's op ed being received as like this 431 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: is a grave call for a student. But it also 432 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: I saw a lot of echoing of helplessness from very 433 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: powerful women in technology and a lot of ringing of 434 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: hands and a lot of oh what do we do now? 435 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: Or I feel hopeless? And when I read Ottawa's op ed, 436 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: I felt the opposite of hopeless. I felt hopeful. I felt, Oh, 437 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: if this is what someone could say with so much 438 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: to lose and so much on the line, then anything 439 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: is possible. And then I saw absorbed in the broader 440 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: public conversation around Epstein and m I T and I 441 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed her. I saw 442 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem instead of 443 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: a blessing. And I was not okay watching that. I 444 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like, if 445 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa. 446 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: I saw a lot of hate being speed on Twitter. 447 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: I saw so like the further the rings of influence 448 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call 449 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: of public leadership being received, how most black women who 450 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received. 451 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: And I was not okay with that. And you know me, 452 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: and you know I've walked through fires in the past 453 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: where that was the art that played out. And I 454 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: could knew I could not in good conscious say that, 455 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: um do nothing and be okay with that, or say 456 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: nothing and do it and be okay. With that more, 457 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: there are no girls on the internet after this quick break, 458 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: and we're back, even though they had never met. Sabrina 459 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: was inspired by Ottawa's actions at m I T. She 460 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: remembered all the times in her own career that she's 461 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: both got against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. 462 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: Speaking out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't rewatch 463 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her 464 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right, 465 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact 466 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: same thing. And while his recording was a big part 467 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: of why Edo stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was 468 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: risking his personal safety by speaking up. It was Ottawa. 469 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: The thing about this that really struck me was the 470 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: not just the the vulnerability of her visibility, like when 471 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: she did speak up, that step up and speak out 472 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: and say something, she was met with not even note 473 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: no support, but with a lot of hatred and anger, 474 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: but the invisibility of her leadership. When a white guy 475 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: says the same thing that she said, and he's not 476 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: even a part of the m I T community, his 477 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: safety grown and girls safety was never going in question. 478 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: Um and I wasn't okay with watching yet another pattern 479 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: of someone outside of a community and institution with prestige 480 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: be validated as a legitimate voice. I didn't want to 481 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: be I didn't want my silence to be complicit in 482 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: continuing that pattern. Sabrina thought that Ottawasha get some kind 483 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: of recognition per actions at M I T. That's when 484 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: Sabrina out the idea for the bull Prize. M I 485 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: T has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is 486 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: a two hundred fifty dollar catch award no strange attack, 487 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: given to social change leaders who speak truth, power, and 488 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: practice moral leadership and ethics. And I thought M I 489 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: T has no right to say what ethical leadership looks 490 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: like if they are letting this um man stay in 491 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: this role, if they're letting this happen to young black 492 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: women in their community. So I was like, Hey, I 493 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: have a voice and I have power and I can 494 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: do something. And I think says, I'm thing. I wanted 495 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: this young woman to know that I see her. So uh, 496 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: And then I was like, you know what, why don't 497 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: I give you an award? So I said, would it? 498 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: Would it be okay. I crowdfunded a leadership prize for you, 499 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: and she was like, that would be really so you 500 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I wrote a letter um that 501 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: you see on bold price dot com where I said 502 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: that you know, I do not know her, but I 503 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: admire her courage and UM that I wasn't okay watching 504 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: a young black woman speak up and lead with courage 505 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: and um and not only not be seen but also 506 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: be harmed for it. I think if we need to 507 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: there's the world as it is, and the world is 508 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: it should be, and if we want to build the 509 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: world as it should be, did we need to reframe 510 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: what leadership looks like so that when these these events happen, 511 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors. 512 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders. 513 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: So I wanted to use my voice and my power 514 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from 515 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: blame to leadership, from the world as it is to 516 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: the world that it should be, and that it is 517 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: not just for right to speak out to protect women 518 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: in her community, but also it's within all of our 519 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: abilities to speak out and do the same thing. The 520 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: other piece that I was that did not sit well 521 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: with me. Was watching really powerful people that we both 522 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: know not recognize their own power and agencies. So I want, 523 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: I believe and the power of invitation, and I don't 524 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice or ignorance, 525 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: but the that an opportunity for them to participate in 526 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: something different and transformative wasn't there. So I decided to 527 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: create it. We are going to refashion the Disobedience Prize 528 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: and we're going to make it the Bowld Prize. And 529 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: I called it the Bowld Prize for three specific reasons. One, 530 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: when Ethan's aacrament person announced and his thing, that's when 531 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: I was like, someone should give him an award. The 532 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: second thing in Ottawa's piece she used as the phrase 533 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: I stand by my advisor is Ethan's acraments or advisor. 534 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: She wrote, I stand by my advisor and his bold 535 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: decision to step down, and I was like, oh, that 536 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: word bold. And then three, when I was in a 537 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: situation where I was speaking out against sexual misconduct and 538 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: racial injustice, one of the people who were complicited in 539 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: covering it up had the audacity to call me bold, 540 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: and I thought to myself. Yeah, you know, I am bold, 541 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: and maybe this wouldn't be so hard if more people were. 542 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: M I T. S Media lab is called the future 543 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: of factory. But do we even want a future designed 544 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: by powerful people that would look the other way when 545 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: it comes to abuse? What kind of future would that 546 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: leave us? With the choices that m I T made 547 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: to um enable as seen and be complicit and covering 548 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: for a sexual predator, those deliberate decisions and choice that 549 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: were made outside of a moral compass, and so two 550 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: somehow envelope that into like they get to be leaders 551 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: someone ethics look like, and not only just what ethics 552 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: look like, but what the future can it can be 553 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: in a fold, I don't want a future imagined by 554 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: people who participate in systems like so. I want to 555 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: build a future with leaders like Ottawa who can, who 556 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: who not only make choice, do do the heart be 557 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: something hard to do it anyway, but are willing to 558 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: absorb the blowback that comes with it because it's the 559 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: right thing to do. Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over for 560 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: Ottawa as the inaugural recipient of the Bowl Prize. The 561 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: average donation was seventy I was just so at all, 562 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, thank you so much. 563 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: But not just because I mean this was a stranger 564 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: and not just any shatters. She was a black woman 565 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: as well and had just somehow like seen my pain 566 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: from far away or seeing the struggle and was like, 567 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: I need to do something for those women. And so 568 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: that was the true like prize for me. It was 569 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: like how many people came together to support my voice 570 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: when I had felt for a long time that I 571 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: was on the outside of things. I feel, just for 572 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: journalistic integrity purposes, I should say I'm one of the 573 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: fun I'm one of the donators of that. I was, 574 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, I I agree. I thought, I you that Sabrina, 575 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: who is this has been a really powerful force in 576 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: my own life is personally um would reach out to 577 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: you like that. I thought that was so beautiful. And 578 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: it really goes back to what you were saying at 579 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: the beginning of our interview about sort of being lifted 580 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: up by this community of black women and lifting them 581 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: up as well, Like it's just it is really special, 582 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: and I think it was important for me, even though 583 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, you and I had never met, it was 584 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: important for me to let you know that people out 585 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: there had your back, We were rooting for you, like 586 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: watching what you were doing, like your what your your 587 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, you never know 588 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: who is You never know who is going to be 589 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: seeing what you did, and that's going to be the 590 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: reason why they speak up thank you. Yeah. I think 591 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: that's also been another like big thing that I've gained 592 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: is you just never know whose life you're going to 593 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: touch or who's who like way words will we each 594 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: And there's been so many like random people who were 595 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, you gave 596 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: me the courage to do this, or you give me 597 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: the courage to write this and to say this and whatever. 598 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: And I've been like, okay, like this can be a movement, 599 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: like the Bold Prize can be a movement, like it 600 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: can be something that people aspired to get. I didn't 601 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: have a vendetta against Joey like personally either, so it 602 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: wasn't like I wanted him fired or to resign and 603 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: would only be happy once that happened. Because clearly this 604 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: issue was deeply structural within M I t as well. 605 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know time 606 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with 607 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging 608 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: me to keep speaking my mind, but we still have 609 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: so much work to do. Like as an institution here, 610 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: what's your advice for other women about speaking truth to 611 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: power even when it's tough. The first is, I really 612 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: think it is a lonely process and it isn't easy. 613 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 1: I've you know, I've learned that firsthand. And I think 614 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: I decide sound like kind of mythical, but I think 615 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: drawing power from others before you do what you need 616 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: to do is so important because you're gonna need so 617 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: much energy to keep going and to like not backtrack 618 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: and what you said because people don't agree with you, um, 619 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: and so like if that's reading, or if that's talking 620 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: to actual people, or if that's listening to Lizzo, Like 621 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: literally drawing power from other women in history and time, 622 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: because there's so many who have done the thing that 623 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: you want to do is so important, gives you stamina. 624 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: Institutions like m I T are powerful, but so are women. 625 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: So is community women being in community with each other 626 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: and lifting each other up and inspiring each other to 627 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: speak our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems, 628 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: and women can envision bolder futures and right or realities 629 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: when we come together. There are no Girls on the Internet. 630 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: Was created by Me bridget Tad. It's a production of 631 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 632 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato 633 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tad. For 634 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart, check out the iHeart Radio app, 635 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.