1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello and welcome for the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are tackling one 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: of our most requested topics, man splaining. Yeah, actually, well 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: can I can I just explain something? Yeah? Okay, I 6 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: mean you might not be aware of this, probably not 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: I am a woman. Um, but uh, you know, men 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: have always explained things to women as if they don't 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: understand them. Uh, but it wasn't until recently actually, that 10 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: we even got the term man splaining. How's that for condescending? 11 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: Was that good? That is very good and and that 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: also hits on the sweeping generalizations that can sometimes come 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: up with man splaining, to say that men have always 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: condescend yes, no women, as if it is just a 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: one way street exactly, and so very good point. Thank 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: you for saying that. Actually, just kidding, UM, I'm done 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: with that. UM. I think it is important to note 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: at the top of the podcast right away that at 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: the root of man splaining, what is called man splaining 20 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: is condescension, and that is in no way limited to men. 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: It is in no way limited to a conversation between 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: a man and a woman. I if you look at 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: the way we talk about what we refer to as 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: man splaining, which is basically, uh, condescendingly explaining something to 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: someone else as if you understand it better, when in 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: reality the other person either understands it just fine or 27 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: actually knows more than you do. Um. I have done that. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: I have done that to my boyfriend about what what 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: have you? Caro splained to him, Well, I'm trying to think, 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: um politics, um, and he's man splained political things right 31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: back to me. So we have man splained at each other. Uh. 32 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: And by that I mean we have just issued statements 33 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: as if they are completely true and we know so much, 34 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: and the other one has been like are you sure? 35 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: Are you sure? Or come back and said well actually 36 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: and well actually Uh. That definition is missing one key 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: ingredient two of overconfidence. Yes, arrogance, arrogance. Yes, you have 38 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: some hubris plus some condescension. Mix it all together and 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: you have some splaining to do, like Lucy did, y'all 40 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: and I love Lucy joke for anyone ever ever watches 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: Nick and Knight. Huh um, Caroline. That reminds me though 42 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: of when I Beyonce splained to my dear husband when 43 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: he was my fiance. Not that that's relevant at all. 44 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: M And I only realized that once I saw a 45 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: look of bewilderment coming across his face, as I had 46 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: been just monologueing for you know, a solid who knows 47 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: how long, because I can really monologue about Beyonce for 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: quite a while, like I'm starting to do right now. 49 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: Uh Andy interjected, and um, and let me know that, Hey, hey, 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to you don't have a base plain 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: to me boo. And I was like, yes, let's do 52 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: get married. Um, but before we go any further, can 53 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: we share one of my favorite examples of man splaining 54 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: that has happened on the stuff Mom Never Told You 55 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: Facebook page? Oh please, So, as I was telling Caroline 56 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: yesterday when we were just chatting about this topic, I 57 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: try to use man splain sparing ly. Yeah, I mean, 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: you don't want to be dismissive when an actual conversation 59 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: is happening. Not every instance of a man talking to 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: a woman is man splaining. Yeah, And and there are 61 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: other reasons that I try to use it sparingly that 62 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: we'll get into more later in the podcast. Um. But 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: but This comment that popped up on our Facebook page 64 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: was such a perfect, perfectly imperfect example of man splaining 65 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: that I straight up screenshot at it and put the 66 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: guy on blast, because, you know what, sometimes there is 67 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: a utility to holding people accountable to what they say 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: in public forums like Facebook. So if you don't like 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: things that you say with your name attached to them 70 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: then being seen by other people, maybe it, don't say it. 71 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: So this was in response to an article that we 72 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: posted about the author Chimamanda Negozi Adici just casually saying 73 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: in an interview that she had opted to not have 74 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: a quote unquote public pregnancy. You know, she's a public 75 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: figure at this point, and she uh really didn't let 76 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: anyone know that she was pregnant because she, in the 77 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: way she put it, didn't want to have to perform 78 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: pregnancy for other people, which is something that I feel 79 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: like is very understandable and should be very understandable for 80 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: our fabulous Minty listeners. Oh yeah, Well, it started like 81 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: a huge debate in the comments section of women who 82 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: had been pregnant and some who obviously had not, like you, 83 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: and I um coming at it from both sides, and 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: it was a really rich discussion until until a fellow 85 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: named Adam. I will not reveal your last name in 86 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: this forum. Adam, if you're listening, I would be surprised 87 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: if you are. But then Adam chimes in, and uh 88 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: says and and when he says, another person what I'm 89 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: about to read. He's referring to Chimamanda Negozi Adici. So 90 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: he says, oh good, another person saying, look at me, 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: I'm a victim because I'm going through a normal process. 92 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: He's talking about pregnancy, and people notice. Just because people 93 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: notice or have an opinion about your pregnancy doesn't mean 94 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: you're performing pregnancy. It means everyone has an opinion on childcare, 95 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: and everyone has a vested interest in future generations. So yes, 96 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: if someone sees you doing something that could potentially hurt 97 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: your unborn child, they may say something to you about it. 98 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: Having things said to you doesn't make you a victim. 99 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: This world is full of people who will judge you 100 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: for the decisions you make, so you can choose if 101 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: your other's opinions or to live unapologetically as yourself, and 102 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: hiding information about yourself doesn't exactly make you seem like 103 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: you're comfortable in your own skin. Wow. So he just 104 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: explained to her presumably her own decision about how she 105 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: wanted to handle her own self and her own body 106 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: during her own pregnancy, and how people who are pregnant 107 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: should feel about the public intrusion on their body is 108 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: that often comes with being pregnant. And you can hear 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: in my voice, listeners, that I am fired up again 110 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: because that that right there is man splaining no, no 111 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: two ways about it, Because that man has a lot 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: of hubris to come on interject himself into a conversation 113 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: that was being largely had by people who do have 114 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: a direct vested interest in this, as people who might 115 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: become pregnant at some point. And uh, keep following me, listeners, 116 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: because I'm not stopping to say that if you don't 117 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: have a uterus, that your opinion is invalid, but to 118 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: then go and explain how the world is from your 119 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: sis white male perspective. Uh and and just um overconfidently 120 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: just lay out the way that you should live your 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: life and feel about your life. That is where he 122 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: just drives off the cliff. Yeah, And I mean I 123 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: think that it's a perfect example of how you know, 124 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: let's take something that has always existed, which is people 125 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: always injecting themselves into conversations where perhaps they don't have 126 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: a place to tell others how they should think or feel. 127 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: But the Internet, uh gives people an incredible forum, an 128 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: incredible opportunity to do just that and to leave a 129 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 1: paper trail of their hubrists and arrogance. And also also 130 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: also to refer to someone who merely in this case 131 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: with chim Amanda was speaking to the Financial Times. I 132 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: believe it was on an article like an interview about 133 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: her pregnancy. It was like an offhand comment that she made. 134 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: She was super chill about it too. Then take that 135 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: and suddenly label her a victim for having opinions about 136 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: her own body and the way she wants to conduct 137 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: her herself in her private life because she has a 138 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: very public life as well. Is also like, who are 139 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you like? That is so so much assuming going on? 140 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: And I will go ahead and read you my response 141 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: because I did copy and paste all of this and 142 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: then share it on Twitter, which all of you enjoyed. Uh. 143 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: So I responded to him, well, said white dude, who 144 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: will never experience what it's like to a be a 145 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: female in a public space. Be be a pregnant person 146 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: in a public space and see be an award winning 147 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: author in the public eye who would rather not have 148 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: her baby bump monitored by the press. You're really the 149 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: quote unquote victim here since you have to endure so 150 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: many women saying things that challenge your worldview. Seek shelter 151 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: young man. Nice, Thank you, I was proud of it. Nice. 152 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: So that's man splaining. Yeah, right there, that is man splaining. 153 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: And obviously, like we said, it can take many forms, um, 154 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: and many people can do the splaining. You and I 155 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: have to watch ourselves a lot in terms of things 156 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: like white splaining, yes, sis explaining, straight splaining, um, and 157 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: we have done it. We are guilty of doing all 158 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: of those things, but we definitely try to be vigilant 159 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: to to not do that. Yeah. And I think awareness 160 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: is critical awareness awareness, awareness of how you're speaking, to 161 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: whom you're speaking, um, what you are speaking about. Because 162 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: I think that if you are a smart person, male 163 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: or female, UM, you hopefully can acknowledge that maybe you're 164 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: not an expert and that other people might very well 165 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: no more than you. And so I think it's so 166 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting culturally, I know so many 167 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: people side I I know so many people are fed 168 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: up with all of our man centric portmanteau that are 169 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: coming into the lexicon. Uh ma, interrupting, man spreading, man splaining, 170 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: broke opriating. Um, but if you can't laugh, you're just 171 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: gonna cry. That kind of thing. Like, it's almost like 172 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: you've got to come up with a joke about the 173 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: stupid stuff that you have to endure so often, especially 174 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: when you are a public figure. Yeah. I mean there's 175 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: a reason why all those portmanteau's have caught on because 176 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: they are a quick and lighthearted way of identifying something 177 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: that previously was more of just a feeling. Yeah, And 178 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: it is like kind of a bat signal to other 179 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: people to say like, hey have you have you felt this? 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: Have you gone through this? And it's such a bright 181 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: bat signal that man splaining was literally just an answer 182 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: on Jeopardy, although not to be confused with a bright 183 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: bart signal, in which case run run and yeah. Um, 184 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: so the clue was this twenty one century word happens 185 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: when a male patronizing lee tells a female about a 186 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: topic she already understands. And I think that's hilarious At 187 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: first I saw that on Facebook and I thought it 188 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: was a joke, but yeah, it was really on It 189 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: was really on Jeopardy. What do you think that maybe 190 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: that was someone on the Jeopardy staff kind of putting 191 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: it to Alex Strubec like struvek. Yeah, we don't know 192 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 1: what Trebek is like behind the scenes. Uh. Well, listeners 193 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: who have requested this topic are probably wondering when we're 194 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: going to mention Rebecca Soulnet, because she is really the 195 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: godmother of man's planning. O can't we say, like really, 196 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: she's credited with starting this whole conversation with an essay 197 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: that then developed into a whole book called Men Explain 198 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: Things to Me? And if you haven't read it, it's fabulous. Yeah. 199 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: So in in two thousand eight, her essay uh called 200 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: men Explain Things to Me appeared in the l A Times, 201 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: and it was basically critique ging men's arrogance in conversations 202 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: with women hashtag not all men, uh and the silencing 203 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: effect that it can have on women, you know, in 204 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: basic conversations day to day, but also on a much broader, bigger, global, 205 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: dangerous scale. And uh, she did not use the term 206 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: man explain that would not emerge, like we said, until 207 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: some people around live journal combined man and explaining UM. 208 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: But she really captured the essence that we've been discussing, 209 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: so basically what happened UM. As she explains in UM 210 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: a more recently released I Think It was UM more 211 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: recently released introduction to that past essay, she explains that 212 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: her friend had encouraged her to pursue her idea of 213 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: a men explained Things to Me essay because quote, young 214 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: women needed to know that being belittled wasn't the result 215 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: of their own secret failings. It was the boring old 216 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: gender wars. In other words, you know, you can't blame 217 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: yourself or feel stupid if you are interrupted or explained over, 218 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: or you know, have someone a man explaining something to 219 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: you in a condescending way. It's not your fault. You're 220 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: not stupid. It's the failing of the person on the 221 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: other side of the conversation. And since she's a writer, UM, 222 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: it also reminded me of conversations that we've had on 223 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: the podcast too about this issue coming up in the 224 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: literary world where it's not necessarily UM. Well, perhaps maybe 225 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: like uh, Jonathan Franzen to Jennifer Weiner exchange but um 226 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: more broadly hitting on this idea that you know, men 227 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: create serious art and literature, whereas women's work is more 228 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: trivial and domestic. Um, and that guys are ultimately like 229 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: the arbiters of culture. And what is important to know 230 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: oh um and oh man, Like what happens in this 231 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: essay is something that has probably happened to a lot 232 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: of women, regardless of like whatever kind of field you 233 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: work in or even what age you are. Yeah. So 234 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: she tells the story of her and her friend being 235 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: at this party and she had recently released a book 236 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: about innovator Edward Moybridge, and this older gentleman at the 237 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: party was like, hey, hey, I want to talk to you, 238 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: like when people leave, like I, you know, I want 239 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: to talk to you. And she's like, okay, great and 240 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: so um he asks her, you know, you know she's 241 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: a writer. He asks her what she wrote about. She said, well, 242 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, I just put up this book about this guy. 243 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: And he was like, oh, well, let me tell you, 244 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: and he proceeds to tell her about this very very 245 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: important other book about Edward Moybridge that had been really 246 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: least and had she heard about it. Oh, he couldn't 247 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: believe she hadn't heard about it. It's so important. And 248 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: keep in mind he had not read the book. He 249 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: had just read about the book in the New York 250 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: Times book review. And also keep in mind too, she 251 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: had before this point in the conversation, mentioned how she 252 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: had published I think it was seven or eight books 253 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: by now. Yeah, so he was like, oh, you're basically like, oh, 254 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: little girl, you're a writer. And yeah, she was like, 255 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: actually everten several well, actually, um, and you know, she 256 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: she writes in the essay like, oh gosh, you know, 257 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: I've been so wrapped up in my world in my book. 258 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: I've had my head in the sand, so to speak, 259 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: for so long. It's entirely possible someone else did write 260 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: a book about this obscure Edward Moybridge, and I just 261 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: didn't notice. You know, what are the chances? But still 262 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: I guess there's a there's a slight percentage of a 263 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: chance that that could have happened. And as the man 264 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: is droning on and on and explaining to her this book, 265 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: in its subject matter and how important it is, her 266 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: friend pipes up and says, that's her book. Man keeps talking, 267 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: that's her book. Man keeps talking. Finally, around the third 268 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: or fourth time that Soulnett's friend pipes up and says, 269 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: that's her book. The man finally stops, and, as Sonnett says, 270 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: goes ashen because his entire worldview for a moment is shaken, 271 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: because wait, no, this is a very important book about 272 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: an interesting innovative figure in history. Well he made himself 273 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: look like an ass. I I don't know, I don't 274 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: know that like suddenly he was like, wait, my perception 275 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: of genders challenged more than like, oh well, I just 276 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: made myself look like a dumb dumb in front of 277 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: the two women. But she said that he kept going 278 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: on like that, he didn't necessarily stop, So I'm sure 279 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: it's both. It's like, oh wait, do I look stupid? 280 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: Well now I need to keep talking. Just dig your 281 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: heels in to cover that up. Yeah, which is like 282 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: such an aspect of the condescending arrogance of man explaining 283 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: that was like a time in Queens when I, uh, 284 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: I was talking to you, this very nice fella, and 285 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: I told him about the show stuff. Mom never told 286 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: you that you were listening to right now, dear listeners, 287 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: um saying you know, like, yeah, I have a feminist podcast, 288 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: And he spent the next twenty minutes explaining feminism to me. Yeah, 289 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: And I just sat there just drinking my beer and 290 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: not really saying much because I just wanted to see 291 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: how how long he would go and why did he go? 292 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: Was he explaining theory or everything? You know? And the 293 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: importance of intersectionality, like saying it would have been a 294 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: good conversation if if, if there were a conversation right right, um, 295 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: instead of manalogue. So the way though that soul Knit 296 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: disc ribes essentially man splaining in that original essay is 297 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: really really important to for us to just directly quote 298 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: and emphasize, so she wrote, though I hasten to add 299 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: that the essay makes it clear man splaining is not 300 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: a universal flaw of gender, just the intersection between over 301 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: confidence and cluelessness where some portion of that gender gets stuck. 302 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: And it's such a such a good way of putting it, 303 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: of just like of gender just kind of like getting 304 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: stuck in the mix where it's like not not everyone 305 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: being horrible human people, but that element of a certain 306 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: brand of normative masculinity that mixes together with overconfidence and 307 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: cluelessness that breeds what we call man splaining. Yeah, and 308 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: coming from people who are perhaps used to their worldview 309 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: being the one that is dominant, the one that has 310 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: heard above all others, the person who's used to being 311 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: heard and taken seriously, and then feels the need to 312 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: perhaps talk over other people that he feels maybe don't 313 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: have a right to have their voice be the dominant voice. Right, 314 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: And again I think, like so much of this is 315 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: subconscious and socialization, because that right there reminds me of 316 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: our conversation recently on failure and how uh. One study 317 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: found that women tend to wait until they are one 318 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: percent qualified to apply for a um some kind of 319 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: job promotion, whereas men will go ahead and apply for 320 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: it when they're sixty qualified, because there is there is 321 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: a bit of gendered over confidence. Research has shown, yes, exactly. 322 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: And so you know I mentioned earlier I kind of 323 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: set a big statement and then didn't follow it up 324 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: with anything. Which is that so? And it talks about 325 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: how the concept that we call man splaining can have 326 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: a much larger, almost global, dangerous effect. And the reason 327 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: that she put that forth is that she says that 328 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: this apparent presumption that you know, women don't know what 329 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: they're talking about when they talk about something, and in 330 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: the inherent assumption that men do silence as women and 331 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: and this can have real and negative effects on women 332 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: around the world. She says that it keeps women from 333 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: speaking up and from being heard when they dare. It 334 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: crushes young women into silence by indicating the way harassment 335 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: on the street does, that this is not their world. 336 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: It trains us in self doubt and self limitation, just 337 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: as it exercises men's unsupported over confidence. And what happens, 338 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: she says, when doubt is sown, either self doubt and 339 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: yourself because you've been shouted down so much, or others 340 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: doubting that you are smart enough to carry this conversation 341 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: or understand what you're talking about, is that your credibility suffers. 342 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: And there are very real, again, consequences of credibility suffering. 343 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: I mean, look at every conversation Kristen and I have 344 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: had about rape culture. You know, not believing survivors of 345 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: domestic violence or sexual assault, of stalking of the importance 346 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: of having credibility in the eyes of the law in 347 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: order to get a restraining order. You know, the bar 348 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: is so high for so many people to be able 349 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: to even get a restraining order or a conviction, or 350 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: to be taken seriously by police, and so Soulnett rights. 351 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: Most women fight wars on two fronts, one for whatever 352 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: the punitive topic is, and one simply for the right 353 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: to speak, to have ideas, to be acknowledged, to be 354 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: in possession of facts and truths, to have value, to 355 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: be a human being. Well, in this conversation and everything 356 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: that Solnet is writing about is so oh timely for 357 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: this election because there has been a lot of that 358 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: in terms of just watching that issue of women's credibility 359 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: being questioned, and while that might seem tangential to this 360 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: issue of man explaining, it is all connected, and especially 361 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: in the case of women survivors not being believed, that 362 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: is something that I've also witnessed. We've seen it on 363 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: our Facebook page of stuff I've never told you, of 364 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: men and women alike coming out to say, she's just 365 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: making it up, They're opportunistic, that's not really assault. Get real, 366 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: this is the way the world works. And and just 367 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: dismissing it and just invalidating other people's experiences and the 368 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: sense of violation and trauma that they have no clue about, 369 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: which is then tied into the issue of reporting, right, 370 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: because if a woman's credibility is suffering internally or from 371 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: external sources, Hello, that addresses the whole question of like, well, 372 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: why are these women just now coming forward, Because in 373 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: the cases of people like Cosby or Trump, power in numbers, right, 374 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: I mean, that's almost the only power a lot of 375 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: these women who have been silenced have at this point. Yeah, 376 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: And it is something like you you said earlier, Caroline. This, 377 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: this issue of man explaining in a lot of different 378 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: contexts does tend to spike around elections because Hello, women 379 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: have not exactly had much of a public voice or 380 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: political rights to speak of, even for all that long, Like, 381 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: public discourse for most of American history has been uh 382 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: dominated and established and maintained by men. And it veers 383 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: into this issue of benevolent sexism as well, where it's like, ladies, ladies, ladies, 384 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: we're not street harassing you, We're just complimenting you. You 385 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: know that kind of that kind of uh A line 386 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: of thinking. So it comes up a lot of course 387 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: during the suffrage era, where you have someone um like 388 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: theologian Liman Abbott writing in the Atlantic in nineteen o three, 389 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: because yeah, there were still think pieces and I think 390 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: pieces back then, And really the title of his essay 391 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: alone sums it up why women do not wish the suffrage. 392 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: I feel like words are left out of that, don't you. Yeah, 393 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: but no, I did double check and that really was 394 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: the title. Um. But Abbott basically launches into this explanation that, um, 395 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: these women, these suffragists who are getting up and speaking 396 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: on podiums and on platforms, they just don't get it. 397 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: They don't get true femininity like the silent majority of 398 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: women do. Um, they don't understand how important our existing 399 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: social structure is. And he said that basically, he's speaking 400 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: for all those silent women who don't get to give 401 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: speeches at podiums, all of those women who want to 402 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: stay home without the vote, rather than stepping back like 403 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: six hundred feet and thinking, oh, eight silent women, why 404 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: are they silent? Perhaps I don't have a platform. Stop 405 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: at your logic, ng me to death. My my eye 406 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: spasm is going at full speed. But this is also 407 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: something that was repeated again during the Carter Reagan election 408 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty when this was the year that the 409 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: Republican Party thanks to a lot of work from old 410 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: Philish Lafley, who if you want to know more about her, 411 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: we've got an episode all about all about her that 412 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: listeners have have both loved and also hated because m 413 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: she's she's a lot to handle. Um. But this was 414 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: the year that the Republican Party officially took the Equal 415 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: Rights Amendment off its platform. Um, And you have during 416 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: a presidential debate between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, Reagan 417 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: who is really parenting Philish Laughley, so in a way, 418 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: he's kind of Slaughley explaining, which is hard to say. Um, 419 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: but you have this very benevolent sexist response of why 420 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: you know, women don't need the e r A. According 421 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: to Reagan because quote, it would be used by mischievous 422 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: men to destroy discriminations that properly belong to women, respecting 423 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: the physical differences between the two sexes, and labor laws 424 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: that protect them against things that would be physically harmful 425 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: to them. So basically saying like, we know what's best 426 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: and we know what you don't want to do, so 427 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: we don't need the legislation, and of course, there were 428 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: women out there who were all about Shlafley, who were 429 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: all about the idea that the r A would be 430 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: um harmful, even though all of their arguments for not 431 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: passing the R E r A have now just come 432 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: to pass via individual legislation, like women um being allowed 433 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: to like the government being allowed to draft women, and 434 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: the thing is too Caroline. In this Ronald Reagan argument 435 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: and the mischievous men, it also reminds me of a 436 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: lot of conversations around why we shouldn't allow all gender bathrooms, 437 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, because mischievous men are gonna get in there 438 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: and do things. There's always this weird pivot politically when 439 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of legislative man explaining where 440 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: it's a slight of hand of oh, hey, you know, ladies, Uh, 441 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: we're not trying to restrict you and tell you how 442 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: to live your lives. We're just trying to protect you 443 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: from men who are terrible but don't victimize selves. Yeah, 444 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: it's a cycle of it's a cycle of so much 445 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: bull honky it's unbelievable. And I think my brain just 446 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: broke because I just said bull honkey so old school. Well, 447 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: I was, I I um, have so much of a 448 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: desire to occur so badly, and so I had to 449 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: say something else. But but obviously, again it's worth restating 450 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: that not all men are condescending jerks, not all women 451 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: are helpless dormats who can't voice opposition and argument. And 452 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: this is not just an issue that flows directly from 453 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: male gender to female gender, you know, like this can 454 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: relate to and go back and forth across all sorts 455 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: of identities. Yeah, and and so much of it goes 456 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: back to because Kristen, you know, said a lot of 457 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: this is subconscious, and she's absolutely right. So much of 458 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: it goes back to gender norms, socialization, communication, power dynamics, 459 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: just expectations that uh end up falling short of reality 460 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: or reality fall short of our expectations and uh linguists 461 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: Debora Tannin, whom we've cited a number of times on 462 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: the podcast before, cautions people that what we call man splaining, 463 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: or the idea of men interrupting women, speaking over them, 464 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: condescending to them, it's not as simple as sexism. A 465 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: would that it were, because then maybe it would be 466 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: easier to combat and raise awareness about. She says, the 467 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: inequality of the treatment results not simply from the men's 468 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: behavior alone, but from the differences in men's and women's styles. 469 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: So we are going to dive into what that means 470 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: and what those styles look like, and whether they're entirely 471 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: accurate or just a bunch of gender essentialism when we 472 00:30:52,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: come back from a quick break. So this half of 473 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: the podcast, we're gonna be focusing a lot on rock 474 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: star linguist Debra Tannin and all of the research that 475 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: she's been doing for decades now on men and women's 476 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: communication styles, particularly focused on the workplace. A lot of 477 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: these Portmanteau's um are usually contextualized in like workplace situations, 478 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: like the man interrupter or the p appropriator who will 479 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: snag your idea in the in the meeting and take 480 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: it as his own. Um. And I do think that 481 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: before we dive into the communication style stuff, that it's 482 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: worth noting that this is this is a little bit 483 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: away from that core idea of overconfidence and hubris plus 484 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: some gender getting snagged in the mix equals man splaining. 485 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: But um, it's so helpful to understand more about just 486 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: these basic communication styles of how we even talk to 487 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, because I mean as Tannon explains it, Um, 488 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, in every community of people on the globe 489 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: that linguists study to understand how they communicate. What's natural 490 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: quote unquote for most men speaking a given language is 491 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,719 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases different from what's quote unquote 492 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: natural for most women. And that's because we tend to 493 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: I mean, unless you've got a mess of siblings, or 494 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: you do just grow up playing with people of another sex, 495 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: we tend to grow up playing like with like. Girls 496 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: are in a group playing with each other, and boys 497 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: are in a group with each other. I had a 498 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: very intersectionally diverse group of imaginary friends. Unicorns, fairies, had 499 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: some trolls. Oh so, um, let's dive into Tannin's because again, 500 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: Tannon has been researching gendered communication, particularly in the workplace, 501 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: since the seventies, so she knows what she's talking about. 502 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: She knows what she's talking about. So basically, she says 503 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: that girls tend to learn these things called conversational rituals 504 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: that focus on the report dimension of relationships. We tend 505 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: to play with a single best friend or in small groups, 506 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time talking um, and we 507 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: learn to downplay ways in which one person in the 508 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: group is better than others. We tend to emphasize ways 509 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: in which we're all the same. And you can see 510 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: this and how girls or frankly grown us women police 511 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: each other by calling each other bossy or you know 512 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: man or boys can call girls bossy as well. She's 513 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: a know it all. Yeah, but you you learn as 514 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: a girl that's sounding too sure of yourself can make 515 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: you unpopular with your years. So therefore, as girls, we 516 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: learn to talk in ways that balance our needs with 517 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: those of others. So we're not called bossy so that 518 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: we are saving face, so that we can still have 519 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: a large group of friends and not sound like we're 520 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: trying to be ahead or above anyone else. So we 521 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: can be likable. Yes, so we can be likable. Whereas 522 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: Tannon contends that boys conversational rituals focus more on the 523 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: status dimension um, and this is involved with more rough 524 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: and tumbled play of guys challenging each other. UM. Usually, 525 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: if you have play in larger groups in which more 526 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: boys can be included, not everybody is going to be 527 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: treated like an equal hashtag lord of the flies. And 528 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: when you have like more like higher status boys, they're 529 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: going to be expected, Tannon rights to emphasize rather than 530 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: downplay your status. They're gonna they're gonna boss people around, probably, 531 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: And this is although when I'm like, but there's usually 532 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: like that. There's always the sun in the universe of friendships, 533 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, especially like younger groups 534 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: of friends tend to orbit around and when when we're 535 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: talking about girls in my experience at least tend to 536 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: orbit around one or two uh central people, which to 537 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: me is very also like status conscious, but I guess um, 538 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: on average, boys tend to be more combative and more 539 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: interested in status climbing, whereas girls are more tend and 540 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: befriend Yeah, and so Tannon says that basically because having 541 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: a boss, not someone who's bossy, but someone who's the 542 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: boss is expected in these boys play groups. Um, giving 543 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: orders is one way of maintaining that high status role. 544 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: You want to take center stage and tell your story 545 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: because that is also another way, like being the comedian 546 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: the class clown is another way of maintaining a high status. 547 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: Which that just made me think of Man's plaining of like, oh, 548 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: getting center stage telling your story over someone else. That's 549 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: showing that you are of a higher status okay, And 550 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot of imagination to to project 551 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: how this might play out as we grow up and 552 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: leave the playground for the wherever wherever it is, we 553 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: go the bigger playground called life. That's right. And when 554 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: we check in on those high status and low status 555 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: boys when they grew up to be men, um Tannon 556 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: says that they're still talking in order to cement their 557 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: status on the life ladder shoots and ladders, shoots and 558 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: shoots and leaves um, and they're using language again to 559 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: exert dominance and achieved hagible outcomes, So they're more likely 560 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: to speak in ways that maintain that hierarchy. They're more 561 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: likely to um try to get in good with the boss, 562 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: talk loudly around the boss to get their achievements recognized, 563 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: and typically on average. Again, um Tannin indicates that dudes 564 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: become indirect with their communication, like women whose motivation is 565 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: to not sound bossy again, only when it comes to 566 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: admitting fault or weakness. Otherwise they're like, this is how 567 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: it is, this is the way of things, this is 568 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: my opinion, and it's the best UM until they're wrong 569 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: or have a mistake and then it becomes less direct 570 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: and meanwhile, what are women doing? Whereas men are on 571 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: that life ladder using their communication to maintain a higher 572 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: wrung with sliding down the shoots, we we are are 573 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: all women are all in the ball pit, hanging out 574 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: in the life network, using our communication to like you said, 575 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: that sounds fun, tendon befriend. I I'm a little worried 576 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: about the germ factor of a ball pit, um, but 577 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: I wish I had one as an adult. I feel 578 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: like I could let off steam by jumping into it 579 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: like Scrooge McDuck. And again, in general, Tannon says that 580 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: that grown us women are using their interactions to be 581 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: more social, uh, to be more sensitive to not knocking 582 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: someone down a peg. We speak in ways that help 583 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: others save face. And this is something that Tannon talks 584 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: a lot about in one of the papers we read, 585 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: because it can get I can get women into some 586 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: trouble if their subordinates don't understand the criticism that they're 587 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: trying to to offer. So if a female manager is like, hey, 588 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, you're doing a great job. I love everything 589 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: that you did with that report, but you know, I 590 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: saw some mistakes on the second half that didn't need fixing. 591 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: She she followed people around their offices for for a 592 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: long time and noticed that when women did that two men, 593 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 1: the men didn't realize because the woman was not being 594 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: as direct, They didn't realize that she actually legitimately needed 595 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: them to fix the whole report. So they only heard 596 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: the compliment. They heard the compliment and felt not betrayed. 597 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: That's too strong of a word, but they felt sort 598 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 1: of led on that their report was great? What women 599 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: are so deceitful? Contouring skills um. One thing though I 600 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: was considering while reading this Tannin piece is that it 601 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: was published in the Harvard Business Review, And I would 602 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: just be curious if you go into that same office 603 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: today and follow people around like Tannon did, I'm sure 604 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: you would find similar patterns. But I also have a 605 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: hunch that some of those general is A actions have 606 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: changed as gender dynamics have changed. Oh, I agree, and 607 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: and yes, as gender dynamics have changed, Yes, as more 608 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: women have come into workplaces. But I also feel, you know, 609 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: and you know, I've worked with men. I also feel 610 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: that generally that softened approach is appreciated by many people, 611 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: not just women, in terms of being like, hey, I 612 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: love what you're doing, like it's great, but here's what 613 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: you need to fix. But see the funny thing for me, um, 614 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: and and and I do think that I can have 615 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: a more typically masculine style of communication. Um, I switch 616 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: it to where I tend to be more direct at 617 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: least an email with women, and softer in my approach 618 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: with men. Why is that Because historically I've only had 619 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: male managers, So if I have something that I need 620 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: to say or a request of some sort, it has 621 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: served me better to still be direct. But um, a 622 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: soft directness, you know, not like not soft in like 623 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: having a huge word count, you know what I mean, 624 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: But um, just a little bit more. You use comic 625 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: sans I know, at least a lot of emojis, pink 626 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: comic sans. Um. Yeah, I mean honestly, it's a way 627 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: to uh to manage egos. Whereas with women, I do 628 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 1: feel like I can be more direct and I mean tannin. 629 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: Tanna says that a lot of the stuff goes back 630 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: to the fact that traditionally offices have been male dominated, 631 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: which means that the overarching communication styles that are expected 632 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: are more masculine, and that this puts women at a disadvantage, 633 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: especially if they are more likely to speak in that 634 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: softer tone or softer method uh in general, and she 635 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: cites studies that that I feel like have been replicated 636 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 1: more recently that women are more likely to downplay their 637 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: certainty by hedging, saying things like just or whatever, um, 638 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: and using tag questions you know what I mean? Yes, 639 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: I do, I do indeed, And and you know where 640 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: this comes into play, is that so basically, back when 641 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: Tannon was writing this this piece, um, her whole thing 642 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: circles back around to you've got to look at what 643 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: the dominant communication style is at the office, and who's 644 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: then getting rewarded for playing into those roles in that 645 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: way of speaking? And then who's going to get rewarded 646 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 1: for it? Because if women come up with great ideas 647 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: in the meeting, but they're appropriated, then who's going to 648 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: be rewarded for it, who's going to get the promotion, 649 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: and who's going to be punished for speaking in a 650 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: way that is not the wout unquote mainstream yeah, I mean. 651 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: And ultimately, what what Tannin says, the solution to all 652 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: of this is not that women should talk like men 653 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: in the workplace, or that men should talk like women, 654 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: whatever that is. Again, this is super essentialist language that 655 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: we're using UM, but rather that there is a healthy 656 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: medium in that where women tend to use more affiliative 657 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: language whereas men tend to use that more assertive language, 658 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: and both styles can be really beneficial in certain scenarios. 659 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: But if we continue to allow the masculine style to 660 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: be the norm in professional settings like it has been, 661 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: because historically dudes were the first ones in the office, 662 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: they were the first ones in business, so they are 663 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: the default. If that continues, and we're never going to 664 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: solve this problem. Basically, we need to listen to each 665 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: other better. We need to listen to each other better 666 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: and recognize that it is possible that we just have 667 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,280 Speaker 1: different ways of speaking and hearing, and that our expectations 668 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: are shaped by socialization. And you know, Tannon does a 669 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: lot of talking about these UM ritual conversational behaviors, things 670 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: like apologizing that we've talked about so much before, Things 671 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: like mitigating criticism with praise, which is a traditionally female 672 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: way of speaking, or offering criticism UM. She also points 673 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: out that exchanging compliments is a ritual behavior of women, 674 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: and you're probably being like, what in the world do 675 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: compliments have to do with man's plaining? I myself wondered 676 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,720 Speaker 1: this as well. Come along for the ride, fair listeners basically, 677 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: and I'm going to try to boil this down as 678 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: quickly as possible. But she gives the example of a 679 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: of a set of coworkers that she studied, and we'll 680 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: call them Cheryl and Bob. And so after presentation that 681 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: Bob gave and Cheryl gave one to, Cheryl's like, hey, Bob, 682 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: you did a great job, and he's like thanks, and 683 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: he doesn't offer any compliment and turn, and because she 684 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: feels like this ritual, so to speak, has been upturned, 685 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 1: she's like, well, what did you think of mine? And 686 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: because of his and again gender essentialist talking in general 687 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: terms here, but because of his socialization, he sees this 688 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 1: question as evidence of uncertainty. Uh. That means that Cheryl 689 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: is now down a peg on the life ladder, and 690 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: so he then holds forth with a critique. So all 691 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: of a sudden, Cheryl feels that she's down a peg 692 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: on the ladder and doesn't know why because she's just 693 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: trying to exchange compliments because that is her conversational ritual 694 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: that she's used to. It's the same thing. It's like hey, girl, 695 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: of your dress, or like, hey you did great on 696 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: that thing today. It's the same thing. Of course, I 697 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: know Christens rolling her eyes now, I'm just I'm rolling 698 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: my eyes at fishing expedition. Well, yes, yes, yes, um. 699 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: But to me, that was an interesting look at a 700 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: potential opening for man splaining if you are doing those 701 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: ritual compliments, if you are fishing, and someone sees it 702 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 1: as an opportunity to explain to you all the ways 703 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: in which you're whatever presentation, piece of writing, piece of art. Uh, 704 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 1: is not as good as it could have been or 705 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,319 Speaker 1: should have been. But how is that just different from 706 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: a critique or constructive criticism. I don't see that's where 707 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: that's where the argument loses me. That that has anything 708 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: to do with gender. Well, Tannon would argue that men 709 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: are less likely to ask for feedback from a colleague 710 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: after a presentation. Like sure, I'm just saying like as 711 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: that a man offering critique, Um, isn't inherently explaining you 712 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, to me, that's just Cheryl's 713 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: failed fishing expedition really, and so Cheryl needs to maybe 714 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,080 Speaker 1: have practice a little more self awareness of that you 715 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: of like, okay, you want you didn't hear what you 716 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,800 Speaker 1: wanted to hear, So then let's let's step back a 717 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: second and ask, well, why is that and what would 718 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: what did you want to hear? And then go from there. 719 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: And I think it's incredibly valid to argue that again, 720 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,280 Speaker 1: not every time a man opens his mouth in response 721 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: to what a woman says is it man splaining? Do 722 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: certain communication rituals open the door to some of these 723 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,320 Speaker 1: abuses of communication? Yes, that doesn't mean that every instance 724 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: of that communication is man splanning. And plenty of people 725 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 1: on the internet's women included, are no fans of the 726 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: term man splaining, not the practice, but the term. Yeah. 727 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 1: I agree that man splaining and similar to the word 728 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: empowerment um, has lost some of its meaning due to 729 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:04,479 Speaker 1: overuse UM. And it can be really lazy, knee jerk 730 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: way to just tell a guy to shut up um, 731 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: And it can have a negative chilling effect because in conversations, 732 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: for instance, around reproductive rights. UM. Do I think that 733 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: sis gender men should perhaps tread lightly and really really 734 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: listen hard before they talk? Um? Yeah? I do, But 735 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that men expressing their opinions or forming 736 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: opinions on reproductive rights is necessarily man splaining. You know 737 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: what I mean. Well, I mean that goes back to 738 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: the example you said it earlier, from your own experience 739 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: of the man kind of man splaining feminism. To you, 740 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: it would have been a totally different bollowax if you 741 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: guys were batting the subject back and forth and having 742 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: a conversation about it, right, and particularly if you're someone 743 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: who does not possess whatever identity is kind of at 744 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: stake in the conversation. Um also important to consider your 745 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: privilege and consider the platform that you have that is 746 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 1: different from people the people that you are talking about. 747 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: So in the case of our podcast, for instance, when 748 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about the experiences of women of color, we 749 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,760 Speaker 1: can quickly get into that if we are not careful 750 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: about acknowledging the fact that we are speaking as to 751 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: white women. Well, yeah and so, and this is when 752 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,320 Speaker 1: you see women of color on Twitter saying can you 753 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: please just sit down, just sit down and listen, And 754 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,400 Speaker 1: and that's what's going on, that they are tired of 755 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: being white splained, just the way that you know, women 756 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: at large are exhausted with being man splained right, and 757 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:57,279 Speaker 1: so because of that, I I'm totally cool with the term, 758 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,759 Speaker 1: you know when when I see examples like uh Alex 759 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: on Facebook hashtag not all Alex's UM, that's man's plaining, 760 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,320 Speaker 1: and I'll call it out. And it's a very useful 761 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: term when you are identifying the right thing. UM. But 762 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: in the same way that I think that UM super 763 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: crass comedy is just lazy, like just automatically going blue 764 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: to me is boring, UM. Using man splaining as your 765 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,200 Speaker 1: knee jerk way to just tell a guy that you 766 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,680 Speaker 1: just don't want to hear what he has to say. UM, 767 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: I think is is misguided and and useless. But the 768 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: discomfort that the word can uh can spark, I think 769 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: it is like is really really beneficial. But it's also 770 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: that discomfort, ironically, which is what UM some people take 771 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,320 Speaker 1: issue with. Where For instance, Leslie Kincel, whom we've stided 772 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 1: before on the podcast UM, She's written a lot of 773 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: great stuff, and over at XO J she wrote a 774 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: piece saying like, I I hate the word man splaining 775 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: because she felt that it was gender essentialists, which valid argument, 776 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: but she also seemed concerned that it would make men uncomfortable, 777 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,879 Speaker 1: and I'm I doubt that that's really like what she meant, 778 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: but that is what I took away from it of like, 779 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, like we're always using and this is not 780 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: her that I'm trying to pare it right now. I'm 781 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: just saying, like there is a general tone sometimes of 782 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: you know what, there's so much criticism that goes on 783 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: and so much name calling. You know, let's take the 784 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:43,160 Speaker 1: higher ground and not call men man splainers. And it's like, no, no, no, 785 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,839 Speaker 1: the discomfort is the point of it, in the same 786 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,839 Speaker 1: way that solidarity is for white women, you know, as 787 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: a white feminist, Uh, that is of course uncomfortable to hear, 788 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: and you want to think, oh, no, am I doing that? 789 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: Am I part of the problem. That's awful? And of 790 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,800 Speaker 1: course not all white women, you know, but it's so 791 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 1: important and that was such and still is a useful 792 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:17,399 Speaker 1: automatic way to call out and identify these institutional issues. Yeah, 793 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a that's a valid point. And I 794 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,279 Speaker 1: am not advocating that we would ever think that men 795 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,719 Speaker 1: are too stupid to understand sexism or sexist behavior. That's 796 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. And that is sexist. Um, but I think 797 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 1: that it is worth acknowledging that whether the splaining you 798 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: are doing is the man variety or the white variety 799 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 1: or whatever, there is a degree of implicit bias to 800 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,479 Speaker 1: be wrangled with. And that's the utility of these kinds 801 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: of words, of being able to immediately spotlight things that 802 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 1: are otherwise invisible. Yeah, and can I can I speaking 803 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: of spotlight? Can I spotlight? One other argument that I 804 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,800 Speaker 1: thought was kind of silly, of course coming from Kinsel, 805 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: but also coming from Liz Cookman over at the Guardian. Um. 806 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,880 Speaker 1: They kind of both argue, I think Cookman more explicitly, 807 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,800 Speaker 1: but they both kind of argue that like you can't 808 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: or you shouldn't, or please don't use man splaining anymore, 809 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 1: the term man's planning, because how would you feel if 810 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:23,759 Speaker 1: someone accused us woman splaining? Yeah, and my comeback to 811 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 1: that is just a blank stare and and blinking helplessly, 812 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: because that's not the that's not the point. And also 813 00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: like you can just tell me if I'm being condescending, 814 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:38,919 Speaker 1: and maybe the cure to that is just awareness. Yeah, yeah, 815 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: because what it's getting to is a product of patriarchy. Exactly, 816 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,359 Speaker 1: And I mean that goes back to the point about 817 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: implicit bias and that if you are splaining from a 818 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: position of higher privilege, it's different, um, right. I mean 819 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,080 Speaker 1: when you say, and now is where we should invite 820 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,880 Speaker 1: our listeners to share all of their thoughts on this, 821 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 1: especially because we are too sis straight, white, able bodied 822 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: women who have been sitting here talking about it, UM, 823 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: and also how it affects different identities. I am really 824 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing from our listeners about this issue 825 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,360 Speaker 1: and also from guys in the audience of how you 826 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,759 Speaker 1: grapple with it and UM, and and how how you 827 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,359 Speaker 1: process the concept to UM. Because again, like it's it's 828 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:39,879 Speaker 1: overuse and abuse sometimes does threaten like it's usefulness, UM, 829 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,799 Speaker 1: but you know, ultimately it is still useful, it can 830 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,200 Speaker 1: be useful. So y'all, now that we've explained quite a bit, 831 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. Mom Stuff at how 832 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com is our email address. You can 833 00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,280 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 834 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 835 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: you when we come right back from a quick break. 836 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from Marina in response 837 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 1: to our episode on gender invention and patents, and in 838 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: it we had asked about why there's so much more 839 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: gender parity in terms of patent holding in former communist countries. So, 840 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: Marina Rights, I loved the episode. It hit on every 841 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 1: subject near and dear to my heart because I am 842 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: a patent lady lawyer with my area of expertise and 843 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: electronics and electrical engineering as it happens, I'm also from 844 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,239 Speaker 1: the former Soviet Union. The first reason is that every 845 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,919 Speaker 1: country has their own brand of sexism in gender roles. 846 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 1: Russia has its fair share of problems with sexism, but 847 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: women in stem fields was never seen as a lady 848 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 1: like or outside of the gender roles for women. I 849 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,600 Speaker 1: know many Russian women who were scientists and engineers back 850 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: in Russia, and talking to them, I was surprised to 851 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 1: find stories of a whole department of chemists who were 852 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: all women, or a whole department of electrical and engineers. 853 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,320 Speaker 1: I asked why, and the only response I got was 854 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,760 Speaker 1: that they thought there were great jobs for women, without 855 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 1: any specifics. In the US, we don't usually say a chemist, 856 00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 1: that's a great job for a woman. We usually talk 857 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,239 Speaker 1: about part time retail jobs. Like that because you can 858 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: be with the kids during the day. The second reason 859 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: is that the Communist Party was the workers party. Therefore 860 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: everyone was expected to be a hard worker. Plus Russia 861 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: needed every available worker to industrialize after the Communist Revolution. 862 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: Every woman in my family, going back to my great 863 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,840 Speaker 1: grandmother worked outside of the home. In the US, I 864 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,320 Speaker 1: barely know of anyone with a grandmother that was not 865 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: a stay at home mom unless they were in some 866 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,760 Speaker 1: terrible situation where they had to work. The last reason 867 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: was World War Two. While in the US women had 868 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,240 Speaker 1: to step up and work manufacturing jobs while their husbands 869 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 1: bought overseas and we're forced to return home after the war. 870 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,000 Speaker 1: Russia lost such a huge percentage of the male population 871 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,120 Speaker 1: in the war, they needed women to work. Since women 872 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,840 Speaker 1: have had parity in the workplace for years, parody in 873 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 1: stem fields and universities. They occupy pretty equal parts in 874 00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: the R and D departments as inventors who file for patents. 875 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that insight, Marina, and I 876 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,440 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Enez. She says, this morning, 877 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: on my way to work, I listen to your podcast 878 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,360 Speaker 1: about women inventors and patents. One bit stood out the 879 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 1: fact that the percentage of patents filed by women in 880 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: former communist countries is higher than in other parts of 881 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: the world. I'm originally from the former g DR German 882 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,720 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic, although I have lived abroad for the last 883 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 1: fourteen years, and this actually makes a lot of sense 884 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,080 Speaker 1: to me. When I was little, it was completely normal 885 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,480 Speaker 1: for women to work, and that also in very technical fields, 886 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 1: like the mom of a friend who was a construction engineer. 887 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: In schools, the science and science related subjects were the 888 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 1: very highly valued and the girls can't do math sentiment 889 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,240 Speaker 1: didn't really exist. Just look at one of the most 890 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: famous former g DR citizens, Angela Merkel, has a PhD 891 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: in physical chemistry. I did not know that. I didn't either, 892 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,640 Speaker 1: Thank you, anez Um. She continues. It's also not a 893 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: coincidence that it was Russia who had a woman in 894 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: space in nineteen sixty three, while NASA was still calculating 895 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 1: tampon problems in the nineteen eighties. There was also other stuff, 896 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: such as abortion rights were nothing that had to be discussed. 897 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,800 Speaker 1: Abortion was simply available and was then quite restricted after 898 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 1: the fall of the Wall. Child care was also available 899 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,320 Speaker 1: and affordable. Also very interesting, the pay gap between the 900 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,360 Speaker 1: genders is significantly smaller in the German states that used 901 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,160 Speaker 1: to make up the g d R compared to the 902 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,480 Speaker 1: rest of the country. This doesn't make communism a feminist 903 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,440 Speaker 1: paradise at all. Most of the time these things existed 904 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: because the countries needed women in the workforce, especially after 905 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,480 Speaker 1: the war, and in the g d R because so 906 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 1: many people were fleeing the country. It wasn't about the 907 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 1: equality of women. For example, the political elite was mainly male. 908 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,720 Speaker 1: There were exceptions, of course, like Margot Honecker. Also, religion 909 00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,360 Speaker 1: wasn't super popular with the political leaders, so the church 910 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,920 Speaker 1: didn't get to influence people's lives as much as in 911 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,800 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. Anyway, I was born in 912 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,760 Speaker 1: so I can only retell stories I was told by 913 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,000 Speaker 1: my family. But maybe a podcast about feminism in these 914 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 1: countries could be super interesting. It certainly would have looked 915 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 1: quite different than what you guys are used to. Well, 916 00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: thank you so much for the perspectiveness, and thanks to 917 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,000 Speaker 1: everybody who has written into us. Mom Stuff at how 918 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,560 Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com is our email address and for 919 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 920 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,880 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos and podcasts. With our sources 921 00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: So you can learn more about man splaining. Head on 922 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,040 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never told you dot com. Thanks 923 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 924 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com.