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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust memepod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you

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Speaker 3: and never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two angry women who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our

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Speaker 2: guests are Felicia Rosario and Daniel Levin, survivors of Larry

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Speaker 2: Ray and his Sarah Lawrence sex cult. So today we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss how they came to meet the charismatic Larry,

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Speaker 2: the ways in which he leveraged his photographic memory and

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Speaker 2: government connections to craft a persona of ultimate authority, and

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Speaker 2: how he slowly gained control of their minds and their lives,

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Speaker 2: all under the guise of helping them.

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Speaker 1: They'll tell us about how his manipulation escalated into sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse and ultimately horrific violence, how one night of being

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Speaker 1: alone led to Daniel finally leaving, and how they're both

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Speaker 1: doing now that Larry's finally going to prison for the

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Speaker 1: harm that he has caused.

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Speaker 2: Thanks God, right, yeah, thank God by Larry. I wish

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Speaker 2: we could have talked to them for so much longer,

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Speaker 2: but I love this interview because we got to really

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Speaker 2: talk about how he sort of really started to take

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Speaker 2: control of their minds, which I feel like is such

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Speaker 2: an important part of the picture. Like it's not just

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Speaker 2: about yeah, the actual physical abuse, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: and the and.

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Speaker 1: Their minds are so what people historically think of as smart,

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Speaker 1: so I can't really show what can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they are smart, I know, I just mean

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Speaker 2: like Harvard like traditionally, Yeah, yeah, they have the like

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Speaker 2: qualifications technically for what you would consider smart person totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course they're newses, but you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, so a million people that have gotten into

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Speaker 1: culs but they just didn't go to Harvard, and then

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Speaker 1: people are like they're dumb whatever, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Go to Harvard, Am I dumb. Yeah, yeah, very stupid.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you, I think.

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Speaker 2: Well, before we dive in with them, Megan, kindly tell

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Speaker 2: me you're cultiest thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's definitely not good news, but probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have seen this in the news. The

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Speaker 1: actor from Dancing with Wolves, his name is Nathan Chasing Horrace.

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Speaker 1: He was arrested in his Las Vegas home. He had

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Speaker 1: five wives with him, some underage, and he's been running

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Speaker 1: a sex cult and essentially he's been using Native Americans

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Speaker 1: beliefs against them because he would go do spiritual ceremonies

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Speaker 1: and all these reservations across Canada and the US and

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Speaker 1: kind of be like, now I need to have sex

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Speaker 1: with someone. The story is very confusing and muddled, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to get more clear as more

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Speaker 1: stuff is released. But it sounds like he was having

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Speaker 1: sex with women are girls as young as thirteen, and

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Speaker 1: he had pills for his wives to kill themselves should

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Speaker 1: the police show up. So it looks like they narrowly

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Speaker 1: missed being part of a death cult because the police

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Speaker 1: got them Mountain time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, thank god. I mean, it just goes

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Speaker 2: to show that there's really no belief system that is

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Speaker 2: immune to the abuse of power, like any freakin religion,

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Speaker 2: any community like and I don't want to like, you know,

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Speaker 2: be a fearmonger or whatever, but it is kind of

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Speaker 2: everywhere and it can't exist in any community. And that's

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Speaker 2: why it's so important for us to, you know, be

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Speaker 2: mindful of group dynamics. Yeah, wherever there's.

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Speaker 1: A good thing happening, somebody can twist it and make

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Speaker 1: it very bad.

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Speaker 2: I know. It just it's such a bummer when it's

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Speaker 2: like I mean, it's always a bummer. It's always a bummer.

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Speaker 2: But like when it's someone who's supposed to be like

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Speaker 2: a spiritual healers, you know, a spiritual leader of some kind. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but again, always a bummer. And every scenario it like

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Speaker 2: it's always under the guise of helping people. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at least very very frequently, I should say. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: makes me sad that there are so many of these

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Speaker 2: usually men not always out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeap, very unfortunate, just messing with people's beliefs too. Yeah, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I know, what about what about you? What's the cultiest

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Speaker 1: thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 2: Nothing CULTI has happened to me. This week because I've

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Speaker 2: been in an editing hole. But I am emerging from

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Speaker 2: the editing hole and welcome, Thank you. I was just

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Speaker 2: really interested in this story that you actually alerted me

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Speaker 2: to about how there was a retired NYPD detective who

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Speaker 2: was just sort of talking about how internet sleuths are dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and so there's this article about how here's a quote

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Speaker 2: from him, sleuths don't know the standards of proof that

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Speaker 2: police departments rely on. They may end up violating somebody's

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Speaker 2: rights when doing these private investigations and inevitably might compromise

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Speaker 2: courtroom testimony and presentation. And there are just a few

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Speaker 2: instances in the article describing people who actually are now

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Speaker 2: being prosecuted for unethical websleue behavior and also people who

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Speaker 2: are being sued for like pointing a finger at someone

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Speaker 2: for a crime that they fucking did not commit. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's about the Idaho history teacher Rebecca Schofield who's

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Speaker 2: suing this TikToker for defamation. Good. There are like other

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Speaker 2: instances of this happening. And listen, like I know that

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Speaker 2: if a crime has been committed against you and the

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Speaker 2: police are not doing their job, or like the authorities

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Speaker 2: are just like not taking your case seriously. Like, I

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Speaker 2: totally understand the desire to get help from other people,

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Speaker 2: but there obviously are just people who take it too far,

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Speaker 2: people who make accusations without knowing what they're talking about,

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Speaker 2: just because things look a little funny. And as we know,

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Speaker 2: coincidences are not the same as actual evidence that would

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Speaker 2: hold up in court. So I just I appreciate that

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Speaker 2: there's some attention being called to it, even though of

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Speaker 2: course there are instances of it working.

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious to see what happens with this case.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what the punishment will be, since she's obviously

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Speaker 1: guilty and was really destroying this woman's life and saying,

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Speaker 1: I know you killed these kids.

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Speaker 2: Jesus. Oh so scary. I know. Well, speaking of scary things,

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Speaker 2: shall we let's do it?

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Speaker 1: Trust Me is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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Speaker 2: Discounts not available in all states and situations. Welcome Felicia

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Speaker 2: Rosario and Daniel Levin to trust me. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining us today. First of all, you guys

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Speaker 2: have just been through so much, especially you Felicia. It's

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Speaker 2: very harrowing. Some of the footage that we have seen,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful that you're even able to share

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Speaker 2: your story and be here with us today. Can you

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Speaker 2: guys kind of start us at the beginning. We can

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Speaker 2: go one at a time, just telling us what your

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Speaker 2: lives were like before you met Larry Ray. Can start

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Speaker 2: with you, Felicia.

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Speaker 4: Okay, my life before I met Larry. I was had

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Speaker 4: start in my internship, my residency in psychiatry at USC.

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Speaker 4: I had gone to Harvard on scholarship and studied biochemistry

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Speaker 4: and then took seven time off and went to medical

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Speaker 4: school at Columbia in New York.

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Speaker 2: Pretty sweet education you have going before Larry, Right, that's

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Speaker 2: very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what was like your trajectory? What were you hoping

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Speaker 1: life would turn out like before you met him?

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Speaker 4: Before I met him, I was planning to be a

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Speaker 4: forensic psychiatrist actually, so that was part of why I

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Speaker 4: went to USC in LA because it has one of

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Speaker 4: the best forensics training programs in the country. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: I was planning to be a forensic psychiatrist to research,

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Speaker 4: work with the underserved, work with the disenfranchised. That was

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Speaker 4: a plan to give back to help as many people

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Speaker 4: as possible.

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Speaker 2: And Daniel. What was your life like before.

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Speaker 3: Larry substantially less admirable. I was at Sir Lwrens College.

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Speaker 3: I was eighteen years old. I also there on scholarship,

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Speaker 3: had just kind of barely gotten in and was happy

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Speaker 3: to just be figuring out who I was at eighteen.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was studying these like classic liberal arts

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Speaker 3: things like writing and poetry and philosophy and literature, and

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Speaker 3: like heaven.

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Speaker 2: The campus is just like these beautiful old buildings and

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Speaker 2: trees and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was everything that I had kind

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Speaker 3: of envisioned college might be, like, yeah, the sort of

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Speaker 3: rolling hills and the big old stone buildings and friends.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was the first time that I was

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Speaker 3: going to a place where I was surrounded by people

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Speaker 3: who were like me. I grew up in a pretty

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Speaker 3: conservative area and so just starting to discover myself when

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Speaker 3: I met.

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Speaker 2: Larry Ray right, and you met him first, right, You

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Speaker 2: were kind of living in the apartment when Felicia arrived.

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Speaker 2: How did you first meet? First of all, Larry's daughter Talia,

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Speaker 2: and then how did you meet?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So in freshman year, I made friends with Santos,

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Speaker 3: Felicia's younger brother. He was my freshman year roommate and

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Speaker 3: kind of my first friend at Sara Lawrence. He started

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Speaker 3: dating Talia Ray and so you know, they had like

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Speaker 3: a college relationship. And everyone knew that Talia's dad was

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Speaker 3: this guy Larry, who had been unjustly, according to her, incarcerated.

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Speaker 3: He was this incredible intelligence agent. He had done all

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Speaker 3: these amazing things and had been at the center of

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Speaker 3: this conspiracy. She'd been separated from her sister. This was

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Speaker 3: kind of the story that Talia would tell over and over,

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Speaker 3: and that was like her life to get back together

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Speaker 3: with her dad, and going into sophomore year, Talia kind

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Speaker 3: of spearheaded all of us getting group housing, which at

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Speaker 3: Sarah Lawrence you can apply to all live in a

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Speaker 3: house together as a group, which gives you a better

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Speaker 3: shot at just getting better housing. So we got to

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Speaker 3: move into this kind of townhouse type situation rather than

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Speaker 3: being lumped into dorms with other people called Sloan and Woods.

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Speaker 3: There were eight of us, and we learned towards the

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Speaker 3: beginning of that year, our sophomore year, that Talia's dad

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Speaker 3: was getting out of prison, and she asked if he

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Speaker 3: could come and kind of crash while he got his

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Speaker 3: feet back under him, and it felt like it would

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Speaker 3: be kind of horrible to say no to that. After

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Speaker 3: her whole she'd been living in homeless shelters, all these things.

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Speaker 3: All she wanted was to be back with her dad,

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Speaker 3: and so we kind of passively let that happen. And

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Speaker 3: that's how Larry Ray came into my life.

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Speaker 2: And can you tell us about your first impression of him?

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Speaker 2: What do you seem like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I you know, for me, off the bat, he

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Speaker 3: mostly seemed really stressful, you know, to be honest, he

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Speaker 3: was just kind of like he would talk a lot

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Speaker 3: and really fast, and it just seemed like he took

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Speaker 3: up a lot of my friend's time and attention. First

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Speaker 3: sort of had Santos and Talia, Larry's daughter and Talia's

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Speaker 3: best friend Isabella, were sort of in his orbit, and

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Speaker 3: then later our friend Claudia, and they just seemed to

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Speaker 3: really glom onto him. And I was dating my first

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Speaker 3: girlfriend of you know, my life really and was socializing

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Speaker 3: and having fun and this just seemed like a lot

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Speaker 3: they were talking about, like truth and justice and like

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Speaker 3: fighting back against the powers that be, and it was

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Speaker 3: just like too much. So it's very happy to ignore that,

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Speaker 3: but I was ignoring what turned out to be a

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Speaker 3: lot more than just those conversations. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it seems like that initial transformation with

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Speaker 1: Santos and Isabella was what really drew everyone in, and

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Speaker 1: I understand that. Can you tell a little bit what

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Speaker 1: happened to their demeanor after spending time with him?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it seemed like, you know, we're at Sarah Lawrence,

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Speaker 3: which is famously a very kind of liberal environment. It

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Speaker 3: felt like everyone had been pretty free spirited, but at

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Speaker 3: the same time was dealing with a lot of kind

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Speaker 3: of eighteen year old angst. You know, I knew that

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Speaker 3: Santos had the same kind of struggles that I did

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Speaker 3: as a young man, and it was pretty clear that

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Speaker 3: Isabella was struggling with some things that I would now

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Speaker 3: call like mental health issues. And suddenly they became a

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Speaker 3: lot more regimented. I would say. It felt like they

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Speaker 3: were kind of myopic, like single minded, and a lot

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Speaker 3: less fun noticeably so. But at the same time, they

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Speaker 3: were talking really regularly about how great Larry was, how

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Speaker 3: much he was helping them, how much the sort of

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Speaker 3: problems they'd been dealing with with themselves with their families

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Speaker 3: were kind of all getting cleared up. Everything was so

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Speaker 3: much better, and they seemed like school was going back

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Speaker 3: her for them. You know, it felt like there was

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Speaker 3: evidence that something was changing. It's just at the time

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Speaker 3: wasn't the change that I even really desired. I was

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Speaker 3: perfectly happy to not be doing great in school.

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Speaker 2: Right, And Isabella like seemed to have like a complete

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Speaker 2: transformation as a perclusive.

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Speaker 1: At right and then dynamic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that she was at first what you

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Speaker 3: might it's a reductive phrase, but what you might call

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Speaker 3: like an emo girl, kind of you know, the person

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Speaker 3: you recognize their heirs always in front of their face.

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Speaker 3: She's kind of like pretty retreated into herself, maybe a

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Speaker 3: little like scathing, you know. And Talia was like her

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Speaker 3: first really close friend who seemed to really see her

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Speaker 3: and make her feel like a person. And there was

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Speaker 3: something that seemed kind of beautiful about that. And Larry

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Speaker 3: became an extension of Talia and then this kind of

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Speaker 3: father figure for her, and that was really evident, like

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Speaker 3: very quickly, and all of the sudden, it did seem

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Speaker 3: like Isabella kind of came out of her show. She

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Speaker 3: was like very confident and very outspoken, and you know,

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Speaker 3: had a big personality and all of this happened, all this.

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Speaker 2: Sid wow, so yeah, so that I would have been like,

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Speaker 2: signed me up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it just happened.

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Speaker 2: What Sorcery, Oh he's helping he's helping all of these people.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he can help me.

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Speaker 1: And it showed like santost like kind of being in

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Speaker 1: the deck. That's so wonderful. I hope everybody sees it.

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Speaker 1: But like being hunched over and then his posture changes

294
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Speaker 1: and he's confident and and it just seems like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I would want to talk to this person so badly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and pelics, Yeah, I would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Since your siblings kind of knew him first, Like what

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Speaker 2: did you observe in them when they started spending time

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Speaker 2: with him.

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Speaker 4: I would echo what Dan said as far as my

301
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Speaker 4: brother goes, he was much brighter, happier, he was much

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Speaker 4: more confident, he had goals. He was a different person.

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Speaker 4: He was the person that I mean, he would say

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Speaker 4: he was the person that he was that he had

305
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Speaker 4: always wanted to be, like he had gotten he had

306
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Speaker 4: gotten to that place because before that he had struggled

307
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Speaker 4: significantly with mental illness, and I'd had a suicide attempt

308
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Speaker 4: and was. I had been recovering from that and recovered

309
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Speaker 4: well enough, you know, to go to college and go

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Speaker 4: to a great school, but you know, there were still

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Speaker 4: vestiges of you know, everything that led up to that, right,

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Speaker 4: and that was that went for all of us, including myself.

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Speaker 4: But after Santo started talking to Larry, he was just like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, you know this is still great. Life

315
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Speaker 4: is awesome. I want to try all these things. Like

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Speaker 4: it was hard enough to get him to try like

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Speaker 4: a different kind of sandwich, right, want to do anything different.

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Speaker 4: And then my sister, like Santo's introduced my sister to Larry,

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Speaker 4: and she also was very similar. She had struggled to

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Speaker 4: with depression and anxiety, and Larry just like may like

321
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Speaker 4: it felt like he snapped his fingers and made life better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the

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Speaker 2: story because the thing with colts and the thing with

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Speaker 2: abusers is that at first it's great. At first it works,

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Speaker 2: like whatever they're offering you is effective, like for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: sometimes they're pulling from legitimate psychology or you know, and

327
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Speaker 2: sometimes they're just providing a sense of community or sense

328
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Speaker 2: of purpose, but whatever the reason, it's working. And that

329
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Speaker 2: is why people get drawn and they don't get drawn

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Speaker 2: in like seeing him abuse someone, like, that's not what happens.

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Speaker 1: Right, And what the technique he had with Daniel first?

332
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Speaker 1: I mean, Daniel, your story is just like we were

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Speaker 1: talking today. That's just like we feel sick to our stomachs.

334
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Speaker 1: You guys have been through yeah, so so much or

335
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Speaker 1: such beautiful people, it breaks our hearts. But Daniel, so

336
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 1: you were you were in college or struggling, You're like,

337
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Speaker 1: am I gay? Am I not gay? And he draws

338
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Speaker 1: this diagram for you and is like are you attracted

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Speaker 1: to men? And you're like not really, and he's like, great,

340
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Speaker 1: then you're not gay and he just takes it away

341
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Speaker 1: and suddenly you said you felt like a million pounds

342
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Speaker 1: were lifted off of your chest, Like what what did

343
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Speaker 1: that feel like?

344
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Speaker 5: Well?

345
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Speaker 3: I think you know, we're all familiar with the feeling

346
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Speaker 3: of moving through life with no one definitively telling you

347
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Speaker 3: how anything works or what is true or false or

348
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Speaker 3: good or bad, how to be a good person, Like

349
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Speaker 3: we the idea of they're just being actually one person

350
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Speaker 3: who if you can imagine actually trusting them, like really

351
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Speaker 3: believing that they do know and then they just tell

352
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Speaker 3: you this is who you.

353
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Speaker 2: Are and what your dream dream.

354
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's awesome, you know. Yeah, And this is what

355
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Speaker 3: you're going to do with your life, and I'm going

356
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Speaker 3: to help you do it. It's going to be great,

357
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Speaker 3: you know. And just truly, if it's so hard to

358
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Speaker 3: imagine now because everyone seeing all the horrible things that happened,

359
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 3: but if it's possible to sort of rewind to that

360
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 3: moment and be like absolutely, if you actually believed that,

361
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 3: what an incredible relief. This is how people end up,

362
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 3: you know, living under fascism. But so, yeah, you know,

363
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 3: I felt anxiety about whether or not I was gay,

364
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Speaker 3: about my sexuality that I think probably the vast majority

365
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Speaker 3: of young men feel. I felt insecurity about my body

366
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Speaker 3: that I think is extraordinarily common, all of these things.

367
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Speaker 3: And he offered black and white answers, you know, definitive answers,

368
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Speaker 3: and it felt like, finally I can quell this anxiety

369
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Speaker 3: that I've been struggling with. Now. Of course, as things progressed,

370
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 3: having someone tell you some a simple answer that isn't

371
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 3: actually accurate to the more complicated reality, it doesn't really work.

372
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Speaker 4: You know.

373
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Speaker 3: I kept having these questions sort of crop up and

374
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 3: then those sort of my questioning, uh, pushed back against

375
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Speaker 3: Larry's control, and so I'd escalated into abuse.

376
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Speaker 2: Well, I want to I want to talk about some

377
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 2: of the ways that he did begin to exert control

378
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Speaker 2: over you. Daniel, and then Felicia, let's start getting into

379
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Speaker 2: your story.

380
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Speaker 1: Yeah, when did it start to get bad? Because we

381
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 1: first it got sexual. Correct, So you guys are at

382
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Speaker 1: Sarah Lawrence. Then you then he gets an apartment in

383
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Speaker 1: the city, and that seems like it when it took

384
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Speaker 1: a turn for a little bit more extreme. So you

385
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 1: are you guys are now staying at the apartment in

386
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Speaker 1: New York City, And first he starts kind of narrowing

387
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Speaker 1: in on sex with you.

388
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can I can say, like, I so,

389
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 3: you know, I first move into this apartment because it's

390
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 3: in the simplest terms, it's just genuinely finding it so

391
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,239
Speaker 3: difficult to find an apartment in New York City, right,

392
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 3: and was just like, you know, I was going to

393
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Speaker 3: Sarah Lawrence, which is just outside the city. It seems

394
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 3: like the thing that everyone all there, like cool kids

395
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Speaker 3: do is live in the city. What I didn't know

396
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 3: was they all had rich parents and I just can't

397
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,880
Speaker 3: tell you that, so you know it. Genuinely, it felt

398
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 3: like I had missed a class on how to be

399
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 3: a person or something. And Larry kind of came in

400
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 3: and was like, I can I can kind of catch

401
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 3: you up, and I have this place that you can live,

402
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 3: and also your friends are like staying over and hanging

403
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 3: out there all the time, and you know, everything's cool,

404
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 3: so it's like fine, you know, I'll crash on his

405
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 3: couch until I figure it out. And Larry's introduced sex

406
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 3: into this environment, so I'm sleeping on his couch essentially,

407
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 3: is how I understand it. And for some context, I

408
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 3: had known that Isabella kind of had a crush on me.

409
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 3: Will you know, we were all living in this dorm.

410
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 3: I just wasn't particularly interested if he like sent her

411
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 3: out into the living room to perform oral sex on me.

412
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: And I have a distinct memory of feeling like frozen

413
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 3: and like time was signed down. I sort of didn't

414
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: understand what was happening, and like staying in this apartment,

415
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 3: I kind of feel like I owe them something, like

416
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: I don't want to cause trouble, and then what would

417
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 3: I do if I like can't continue to stay there?

418
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 3: I don't have anywhere else to go. And so that

419
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 3: was just like the smallest first step into what escalated

420
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 3: into kind of Larry claiming to give me like a

421
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 3: sexual education because I was had hang ups or was

422
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 3: too like prude or needed to kind of like get

423
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 3: out of my shell. And you know, it became very

424
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 3: controlling and coercive and non consensual. Yeah, from top to bottom.

425
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Speaker 2: It's God, it's so terrible. What were some of those

426
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: ways that you can see now that were him like

427
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: slowly getting control over you? Like, can you talk about

428
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: like isolating you from other people or in the late

429
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: night integrations, Like, I'm just curious about that process because

430
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: it does happen slowly. How does it get to the

431
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 2: point that it got to?

432
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Speaker 3: So for me, you go from like you're hanging out

433
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,239
Speaker 3: with your friends in college and sometimes you're having like

434
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: all nighters, or you're staying up until like sunrise and

435
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: this kind of thing. And now I'm in this environment

436
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 3: where we're staying up until sunrise, but we're talking instead

437
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 3: of just like hanging out and making jokes, we're talking

438
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 3: about like how to be a good person. And my

439
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: friend's fifty five year old dad is there and he's

440
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 3: kind of running the show. And then that shifts to

441
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: being like these conversations will be really focused on one

442
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: person and their relationship to their memories and their childhood

443
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 3: and what happened with their parents and you know, how

444
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: they behave and all these things. The mechanism here for

445
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: the more intense abuse I think is basically shame. You know,

446
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: he made me feel like he said to me, you're

447
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: not gay, you know, you're a man, and then it

448
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 3: was like up to me to prove it by going

449
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 3: along with what he was the context he was creating,

450
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: the circumstances he was putting me in. So you know,

451
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 3: it was like, if you want to continue to prove

452
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: that you're the type of man that I've said you are,

453
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: and you're straight and you're all these things, you will

454
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: follow my lead.

455
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: So he first establishes himself as like an authority on

456
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: like everything. Basically he is the wise god literally everything. Marines.

457
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: So he was in the Marines, but he said he

458
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: was like this.

459
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: I thought he wasn't.

460
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 4: Oh he was.

461
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: He was in the Marines for like what was it

462
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: like nineteen days? Yeah, yeah, just his whole idea.

463
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: Yea, I didn't realize I mean technically true, but yeah,

464
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 2: but that but like he's you know, painting himself as

465
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 2: someone who has been a part of very high level

466
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: government operations and he's experienced a lot and he's been

467
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: through a lot, so he has all this wisdom and

468
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: I'm assuming he actually did do some reading on things,

469
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: because he seemed to know about things, which maybe you

470
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: can speak to Felicia. But so like he's establishing like

471
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: I'm the authority, I know about everything. You're all young.

472
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: I know what to do, I know what the answers are.

473
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: And then he's creating these goalposts for you because he

474
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 2: has all this wisdom and he knows what's best for you,

475
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: for you to live up to that continuously move right.

476
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, you're not good enough, I'm going to

477
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: tell you how to be good enough. But then that of.

478
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 6: Course again, yeah, he was very well read or is

479
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 6: again he is very well ready, He's very educated on

480
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 6: many topics.

481
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 4: Can carry on a conversation with anyone with just about

482
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 4: but just about anything. M hm. And and it's true,

483
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 4: I mean he would he would challenge us and be

484
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 4: like take a book off of the shelf, like don't

485
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: tell me what it is, go to a page like

486
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 4: and like read like three words to me, and then

487
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 4: I'll tell you the rest of it, Like I'll read

488
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 4: you the whole paragraph.

489
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 5: Whoa, And he actually had his he.

490
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 4: I mean he did it all the time.

491
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: Did he just have a photograph photograph memory?

492
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: Oh?

493
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Yes, he's very smart.

494
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 4: So he's very good that he knows a lot. And

495
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: then he can talk his way around what he does

496
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 4: anybody what he doesn't know exactly. And then he did.

497
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 4: He did know some people. He he did know people

498
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 4: in the government, he knew chief of Police, chief of

499
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 4: police former and New York City detectives dagents, Like he

500
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 4: knew all these people. Yeah, and I met them and

501
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 4: they were They're like, Hi, I'm Larry's friend, right, you know,

502
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 4: how did he.

503
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: Know all of these people? How did this happen? Do

504
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: we know?

505
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: I think that the way that he operated for many

506
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: years is kind of this classic con man thing where

507
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: he was just leveraging one connection after another to just

508
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: kind of leap frog up. So it'd be like, you know,

509
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: he has someone he knew from childhood, he uses them

510
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 3: to get connected to someone who's a little bit more powerful,

511
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: and then he meets someone else and he claims he

512
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: knows this person, and he just sort of bouncing back

513
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 3: and forth. And I think that a lot of a

514
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: lot of how you can understand Larry is that most

515
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 3: of us have all kinds of other goals for our

516
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 3: lives and things that we care about and that take

517
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 3: up our attention and time. If you're just like single

518
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: minded and all you care about is kind of trying

519
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: to achieve status for its own sake or power for

520
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 3: its own sake, you can you can get a long way.

521
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: There's a natural cadence to conversation, and I think we

522
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: all know the feeling of like waiting for a natural

523
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: pause when you can interject. And I think that if

524
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: you just imagine feeling that feeling for years, that's what

525
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: it was, like, My God, to you, Larry Way, just

526
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 3: someone who is so capable of ignoring all of the

527
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: etiquette that we've all learned our whole lives and just

528
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: never stops.

529
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: The anxiety that that creates in me.

530
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: There's one of one hundred and twenty milligrams of adderall sometimes,

531
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: so wow, combining all of that shit together and you've got.

532
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you have us focused as.

533
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: Actually slower, he was slow slower on our home when

534
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: he had his one hundred and twenty miligrams. You didn't

535
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 4: want to talk to him before if he didn't have

536
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 4: his adderall. I was like, oh my god, you didn't

537
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 4: dig your adderall?

538
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 3: Whoa?

539
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: Here was this what you were texting me about? Saying

540
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: the energy that this man had?

541
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: Yes, it was like how like I complete one task

542
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: a day and I'm like, I did it, and this

543
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: man is just like moving trees and like buildings and

544
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: like the smartest people I've ever seen.

545
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Are like, yeah, I'm just like, whoa, I can't.

546
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't understand why sociopaths have so much energy.

547
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: It's can they give us some of it? Please?

548
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: And yet at the same time, he got nothing done.

549
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 5: Exactly right right?

550
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: They Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

551
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 4: She never finished anything. He was never on time, like

552
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 4: he could just he could not get it together. It's

553
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 4: true the time No.

554
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: Wow, Well why do you need a driver's license when

555
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: you have you know people you're abusing?

556
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: Who do first?

557
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, Felicia, can you tell us about how you

558
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: first met him? How did how did then it all start?

559
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: So? I met Larry through my sister and my brother.

560
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: I think that he had them, you know, engineer this

561
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: this dinner. So I came home from Los Angeles to

562
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 4: visit and my brother was like, oh, we have to

563
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 4: go out to dinner with Larry, Like you have to

564
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: meet my friend Larry. And I was like, okay, sure's

565
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: still meet Larry. So it was the three of us

566
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: and Larry. We went out to an Italian restaurant and

567
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: he was just he was really just cheerful, really nice,

568
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: charming kind uh not not like how he ended up

569
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 4: being obviously right, he was. He seemed great and he

570
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: was really smart. He he could keep up like conversations

571
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 4: with me about you know, all my medicine, my psychiatry,

572
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: any everything, you know, everything that I knew about. So

573
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: I it was, I was, it was cool. I was like,

574
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 4: you know, he's he's you know, I like him. He's

575
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: he's good. And my brother really likes him. My sister

576
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 4: is a fan. Then he took me back, he took us, well,

577
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 4: all of us. We went back to the apartment and

578
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: we talked to him. We talked for for a really

579
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: long time. It was like till two in the morning

580
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 4: or something. We stayed up talking and he played some

581
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 4: songs for me. He was really into this music ah

582
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: music therapy. So he you know, he had learned about

583
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 4: our family dynamics from talking to Santos and my sister

584
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 4: really za, so he knew, you know, the thing, what

585
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 4: had been going on with my parents and my relationship

586
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: with my parents already. So he plays these really sad

587
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 4: songs about like father daughter relationships and it's like all

588
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 4: of this Tori Amos, and I'm just like, oh my god.

589
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 4: So I'm like and I mean, it's beautiful music and

590
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 4: it's it's very emotional, right, So I ends up crying.

591
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: But the story that comes out of that is not

592
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: about the music, is that he ends up saying afterwards

593
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: that I confessed to him that my family was out

594
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 4: to get him, was working with Bernard Carrick, kill him and.

595
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: Tell yeah, And he went to jail before, and Bernard

596
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: was a part of that, correct, So in two thousand

597
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: and three, Larry went to jail. Bernard was part of

598
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: this conspiracy which was actually just a normal person should

599
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: go to jail for this. So so he's saying, yes,

600
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: you told me that Bernard your family's working with him,

601
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: and and right, okay, okay, got it.

602
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: So then I was so then this is where this

603
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: is where the poisoning plot starts, where he starts.

604
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 5: Damn yeah, first night.

605
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he he's he already singles me out as

606
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: like the good one because I'm the one that came

607
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 4: and told him and like uncovered the plot and then

608
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: everyone else turns into poisoners like you know, years down

609
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: the line. But it's you know, he he started, he

610
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 4: had this in his mind very early on, that there

611
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 4: was some kind of the conspiracy theory against him, and

612
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: then he leveraged he leveraged that and everything else. He

613
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 4: made my sister and my brother believe against me, against

614
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: me and my parents.

615
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: Do you think he believed any of this or is

616
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: he just messing with you guys.

617
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: Just shaking her head? No?

618
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 4: No, yes, sorry video. Yeah, No, I don't. I don't

619
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 4: think he believed it. There were so many times when

620
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 4: he's he has a great poker face, so he can

621
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: tell you things and it sounds like he believe it's true.

622
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 4: But but I've seen him do it to me. Even

623
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 4: he'll like he'll tell me something, He's like, I was

624
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: just kidding, Like you believed me. I was like, yes,

625
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 4: I believed you. So no, I don't think he believed it.

626
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 4: It's because it was absolutely there was there was no basis,

627
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 4: there was no foundation, and he clearly had his own agenda.

628
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: The question about whether he believed what he said, I

629
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: think is really interesting. And also the reason that I

630
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: didn't leave for a really long time was because I

631
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 3: thought that I could figure out an answer to what

632
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 3: was going on in Larry's head and whether he believed

633
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 3: it or not, or whether this even if he didn't

634
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 3: believe what he was saying, it was part of a

635
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: program to help us, like he claimed all these things,

636
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 3: and it just turned out at a certain point that

637
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: that maze is doesn't have an exit on purpose. Yeah,

638
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 3: you know, it's like intended to be that absurd and

639
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: not navigable, and so the only answer just becomes like

640
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: I don't deserve to be hurt this way, and can

641
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: just stop it, you.

642
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: Know, right?

643
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: And how you stopped it as one of my favorite stories.

644
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: We have to get to that because it's so fascinating

645
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: and what we see a lot. Can we talk about

646
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: when you went back to Los Angeles Because you were

647
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: going to go back to Los Angeles, your life was

648
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: going to continue as normal, but you started being followed

649
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: Is that so correct?

650
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 4: Yeah? So I went back to al like because I

651
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 4: was only here for a few days to visit my family,

652
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 4: and then I was then I had to go back

653
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 4: to work. I was Was I still on psychiatry, Yeah,

654
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 4: I was still in my psychiatry rotations. So I go

655
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 4: back to Los Angeles. I start Larry starts calling me

656
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 4: like all the time, mostly with the pretext of talking

657
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 4: about how Santos is doing, how my sister is doing.

658
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 4: Because I'm I'm the eldest and my parents worked a lot,

659
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: so I was effectively like the third parent, so I

660
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 4: you know, so I I I was really the person

661
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 4: that was there for my siblings, for both of them

662
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 4: as while we were growing up. So Larry so naturally

663
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 4: and I and I had a very good relationship with

664
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 4: both of them. So when Larry wanted to talk about

665
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 4: something that was going on with either of them that

666
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 4: he would talk to like a mom about, he would

667
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 4: talk to me, and so so that was the pretext,

668
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: and then then we got to talking about other things.

669
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: He was very interested in my work. I love my job,

670
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 4: so I was happy to talk about work, and then

671
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 4: and then it got to be I mean, then then

672
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 4: he he got you know, he got romantic and then

673
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: he started saying I love you. It took maybe like

674
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 4: two or three months and he started telling me I

675
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 4: love you. But he'd I Now, I don't know if

676
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 4: I was being.

677
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 5: Followed or not experience about but.

678
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 4: I think I don't think I actually was. I think

679
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: he got me so paranoid that I believed that I

680
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 4: was being followed, that I believed that people were going

681
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 4: to come after me. That I I mean, and he

682
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 4: would he planted it like we're not planted. He said

683
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: it constantly. Well, you know, because you're talking to me

684
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 4: like Kark's going to be looking for you. I was like,

685
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 4: what are you talking about? What does that have to

686
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 4: do with anything? And then it just he he just

687
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 4: he persisted and he just made this story. And sorry,

688
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 4: this is hard. It's hard to talk about, but because

689
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 4: it's just so much, you know, he he It didn't

690
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 4: take long for him to just make me paranoid or

691
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 4: be or he was paranoid himself. He was worried about

692
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 4: me seeing other people. He was worried about me, who

693
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: I was having sex with, who I was going out with,

694
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 4: just like everything that like a controlling like significant other

695
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: does like that's what he did. But it was like

696
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 4: long distance, and it was he was just he was

697
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 4: so determined, Like he's so good at controlling and like

698
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: manipulating people, really like really like getting to your vulnerabilities

699
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 4: and fears and weaknesses. That like he was in my

700
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: head and it was and there was very little I

701
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 4: could do to to fight back up until September of

702
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 4: twenty twelve when he broke me and I was like, Okay,

703
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 4: you're broken, now you need to come to New York.

704
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 4: And I had no I had not no choice but

705
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: to come back and leave my job, you know, without

706
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 4: any notice.

707
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

708
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: So how how long were these conversations that he was

709
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: having with you?

710
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: Hours?

711
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, there were there were, because I mean I worked

712
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: during the day, as you know, as and as a

713
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 4: resident or as an intern. It's I'm working at least

714
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 4: twelve hours a day.

715
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

716
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 4: My weekends is like free time.

717
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 2: Right.

718
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 4: It would be like all all a whole Saturday from

719
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 4: like morning tonight, and we would be on the phone

720
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 4: all day, wow, all day and he would just be

721
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 4: asking me questions or berating me. I mean it just

722
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 4: went all sorts of ways. And then I could just

723
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 4: never get off the phone.

724
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah.

725
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: Somehow yeah, and then somehow he was still doing everything

726
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 4: else in the apartment at the same time while he

727
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 4: was talking to me, and just it was so crazy.

728
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: Right, It's like there were five yeah, oh yeah, like

729
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: he was everywhere all at once. Yeah. I just want

730
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: to comment on the fact that, like, you know, this

731
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: isn't like you're having an hour conversation and he's in

732
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: your head, like he is taking up all of your

733
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: free time and hijacking all of your ability to think

734
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: for yourself because you have literally, even though you're not

735
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: with him, you have no time alone. And that is

736
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: that is the classic way that people indoctrinate people over

737
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: time is you just do not even give them a

738
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: chance to start to think critically at all.

739
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: Busy busy, So you're like, I have to go back

740
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: to New York. Someone's following me. I'm terrified, Daniel. Were

741
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: you still at the apartment at this time or had

742
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: you left yet?

743
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: It was yeah, we overlapped at the apartment for a

744
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: little while.

745
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: And what was it like at that point? What had

746
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: it started to become more chaotic? Had all this shit

747
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: started to come moving in because he was just like

748
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: compounding stuff in this apartment, and yeah, what was the

749
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: vibe there?

750
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, the way I think of it now is if

751
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 3: he started to make the interior of the apartment and

752
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 3: all of us like reflections of the inside of his

753
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 3: own brain. So it became it was like hell was there.

754
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: Like it was just pile high with it was like

755
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 3: there were ten apartments in one apartment, you know, just

756
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: like so many boxes of random things and appliances and

757
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 3: tools and supplies. And then he'd bring in heavy duty

758
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: woodworking equipment, you know, a band saw that weighed I

759
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: think eight hundred pounds, like all these things. I don't

760
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 3: even know how he got them into this apartment. So, yes,

761
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: it was highly chaotic. By then you had people. At first,

762
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: you know, Santos was going back to his parents at night,

763
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: but then by then was he was sleeping over a

764
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: bond was sleeping over I was, you know. So there's

765
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: just like people sleeping on the floor trying to just

766
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: sort of make space around like paint cans. It was

767
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: totally out of control and not good for feeling sane.

768
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: But what did he that all this stuff was in

769
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: there for.

770
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 3: Well, he claimed that the reason it was so chaotic

771
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 3: was that we were failing to organize the space, and

772
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 3: that if he had an hour, he would fix everything,

773
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 3: but he had to let us figure out how to

774
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: do it or how to sort of better ourselves, and

775
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: that there was room for everything if you just figured

776
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 3: out how to organize it.

777
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: It makes me want to scream. It makes me want

778
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 1: to scream.

779
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything is your fault. That's that's just the class

780
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: every no matter what it is, your you are the problem.

781
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: And I could fix it so easily. Yeah, but why

782
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: can't you?

783
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I'm going to make it a teaching lesson

784
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 4: and let you. I'm gonna let you do it just

785
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: so you learn.

786
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: Thanks.

787
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it, Daniel. Can you talk

788
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: about the process, like how it began to actually turn violent?

789
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 4: Yeah?

790
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 3: So, I think as is classic with the sort of

791
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: group coerceive control situations. There was a kind of hierarchy

792
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: that emerged, but that hierarchy was always shifting. Larry was

793
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 3: always at the top, but who was at the very

794
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 3: bottom would cycle, so it would be someone was the

795
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: scapegoat for everything. It was one person's fault that the

796
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 3: apartment was in chaos because they had been sabotaging Larry

797
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 3: and sabotaging everyone else's progress. You never wanted to be

798
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 3: that person, so you would do everything you could to

799
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: be good, And there was this feeling that everyone had

800
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 3: to be careful because someone else would tell Larry that

801
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 3: you had said something wrong or done something wrong. I

802
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 3: don't know how often that actually happened, but that was

803
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 3: the feeling. So there came a point when I, you know,

804
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: it had been in and out, but at a certain

805
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: point I was very much on the bottom, and it

806
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: just happened that for whatever reason, I think that Larry

807
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: was experimenting with how far he could push it with

808
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: me at first, or something. He had been really extreme

809
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: with everyone, So it's hard to say for me, but

810
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 3: it became about both escapegoating me for things that had

811
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: gone wrong. He claimed I had sabotaged his daughter's application

812
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: to law school, among other things. But also it became

813
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: about my sexuality in a pretty intense way, and about

814
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: kind of fixing me, and everything just sort of compounded

815
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 3: all at once, So in my memory, it just was

816
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: like one thing after another, getting more and more extreme

817
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 3: until I left.

818
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: So can you describe for us how the cracks began

819
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: to emerge in your brain and ultimately led to you leaving.

820
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: So I first was starting to kind of doubt Larry

821
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 3: a little bit, and in simple ways that now in

822
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: retrospect feels silly, like he was obsessed with creating these

823
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: websites and that he was going to own all these

824
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: domain names and make all these websites and they were

825
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: going to make a lot of money. It just happens

826
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: that my dad's business, my whole life is designing websites.

827
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 3: So I knew. I was just like, these are bad websites.

828
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: These are the kind of websites that you land on

829
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: when you miss type Google, right, you know, and these don't.

830
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah right.

831
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 3: It's a claim that he was making like millions of dollars,

832
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 3: and I just was like, there's no way that that's true.

833
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: And then once you start to question little like one thing,

834
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: it's like, well, if that's not true, then either he's

835
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 3: lying about it or he doesn't know, and either way

836
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 3: something is wrong. And then you start to wonder, you know,

837
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 3: what is he doing in the bedroom for all those

838
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 3: hours with Isabella, or like, you know, all these things,

839
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 3: And so that combined, I think that he could tell

840
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 3: that I was doubting. He started like showing me photos

841
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 3: of him with Gorbacheaw or a photo of him with

842
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 3: George H. Bush. He had a friend of his from

843
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 3: childhood get on the phone with me and tell me

844
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: about how amazing Larry was as a young man. All

845
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 3: these things, so it felt like he was trying to

846
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 3: prove something to me, but as I was still kind

847
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 3: of not getting with the program, he was escalating the

848
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 3: physical violence. So, you know, towards the end, he there

849
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: was a night that he made what he called a

850
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: garat out of saran wrap and aluminum foil and like

851
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: wrap that around my groin and was tightening it in

852
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: front of my friends, trying to get me to admit

853
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: to some sabotage. There was the night that he, you know,

854
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: put me in a dress and made me like try

855
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: to swallow a dildo like and say that I wasn't

856
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: gay anymore. All these things, And so there was one

857
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 3: day that for some reason I was up and no

858
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 3: one else was and or people were out of the apartment,

859
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 3: and I went up to the roof of this building.

860
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 3: This is on the upper East side of Manhattan. It's

861
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 3: like the forty five story building, I think, and I

862
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 3: don't really know it was just sort of an impulse.

863
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 3: I went up to the roof and then as it

864
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: saw a ladder And this is also pre Larry, a

865
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: person who likes climbing up and finding high blazes. You're

866
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 3: a cat, yeah, I'm a cat. Yeah. And so you know,

867
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 3: I climbed this ladder and it was like, oh, this

868
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: is kind of cool, like I'm getting up on this

869
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 3: highest building in this area. And then there's a water tower.

870
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 3: I got to the top of the water tower. And

871
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 3: something that Larry had claimed the entire time that I

872
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 3: knew him was that we were all suicidal, whether we

873
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 3: kind of knew it or not, that it was an

874
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 3: impulse we couldn't control, like a switch in our brain,

875
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 3: and it could happen kind of any time, and his help,

876
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: the whole point of his help was that he was

877
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 3: protecting us from ourselves, and that if we weren't careful,

878
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 3: or that if we got away from him, we would

879
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 3: impulsively like step onto the train tracks or something like that,

880
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: and he would play it on that feeling. You know,

881
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 3: I think we all get that sort of call of

882
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 3: the void where you like you're holding your keys and

883
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 3: you kind of want to drop them down, like a grate.

884
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: He just kind of was like, you know that feeling

885
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 3: like that's weird you. No one else has that, just you,

886
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: And he claimed that if one of us did it,

887
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 3: we would all do it. So I was up there

888
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 3: on this water tower and was like, if I really

889
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 3: wanted to kill myself, you know, I'm four hundred and

890
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: fifty feet in the air, I'm on the edge of

891
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 3: this thing, I could absolutely, very easily do it. And

892
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 3: I was like, do I want to honestly given everything else,

893
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 3: and I didn't. I was like, I don't want to die,

894
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 3: and I and that's it's not true. And so if

895
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: that fundamentally isn't true, and it's at the heart of

896
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: everything he's cleaned this whole time, then a lot of

897
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 3: other things must not be true. And either way, I'm

898
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 3: being harmed and it feels dangerous and I don't want

899
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: to I feel like it's going to get worse and

900
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: I want to live. And so I felt like I

901
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: had to just try and figure out a way to

902
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 3: get away without him following me, and so that became

903
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: a whole other pursuit.

904
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: It's just so interesting that you just needed like a

905
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: couple hours by yourself to get your brain back. That's

906
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: how busy I've and exhausted and everything I feel like.

907
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, definitely interesting that he would be in

908
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: your head so often and then you got away for

909
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: a minute, got out.

910
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: Let me see that. A lot, a lot of stories

911
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 2: began with just like a little bit of alone time.

912
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: The pandemic made a lot of people leave the cult

913
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: I was raised in because they weren't programmed every five seconds.

914
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: So anyway, very interesting. So you're yeah, he's you're back

915
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: in the real world, you go back to school, whileas Felicia,

916
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: your life is just beginning to ramp up into madness.

917
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, talk about that time and how he had

918
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: sort of hijacked your brain essentially. At that point, he

919
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: seemed like such an so skilled at convincing people they

920
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: were crazy that there was something wrong with them, you know,

921
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: because yeah, tell us about that.

922
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it started. It started before I came back here,

923
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 4: you know, before I came back to New York in

924
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 4: September of twenty twelve. And within the month we went on,

925
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 4: he had me drive him to Washington, d C. To

926
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 4: meet his friend, who actually was a marine, a lieutenant

927
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 4: general in the Marine Corps. Retired.

928
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 3: He had to do that too. I didn't realize that

929
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 3: you were.

930
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 5: Ya same friend I did. Wow, huh same same guy.

931
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 4: But yeah, Larry, yeah, yeah, same guy, yeng nuy. Yeah.

932
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 4: He was awesome. The guy was awesome.

933
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 5: Not Larry, yes, no, of course, but so I.

934
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 4: He he he yells at me and gaslights me the

935
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 4: whole way down and he has me meet, you know,

936
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 4: and we get there and then we meet his we

937
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 4: meet some more law enforcement friends and he's like, this

938
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 4: is he. This person's from the DA, the Navy, CEL, FBI,

939
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 4: all of these, you know, branches of government. He's like,

940
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 4: you know, if anything ever happened to me there, they

941
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 4: would they would come after you. If you ever did

942
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 4: anything to me, they would come after you. And he

943
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 4: got on me for like a whole other day and

944
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 4: he made me suicidal. Like the next at night when

945
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 4: we went to sleep, I got up and I went

946
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 4: and bought a bunch of child all and took it.

947
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 4: I took it and I found a river and I

948
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 4: was trying to I'm not going to be too detailed,

949
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 4: but the point was I did have Unfortunately I did

950
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 4: end up taking the title in all, but I did

951
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 4: have my moment of wait a minute, I don't want

952
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 4: to die, and I got out. I clawed myself back

953
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 4: to the street. The police found me and then they

954
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 4: took me to the hospital, but then Larry got to

955
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 4: the hospital and he hijacked the whole hospital visit. He

956
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 4: told the doctors that I was tried to kill myself

957
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 4: because of my mother, and like made all of this

958
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 4: stuff up and then had me taken out against medical

959
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 4: advice and then used and then used that as leverage

960
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,479
Speaker 4: over me, saying like you'll never be a doctor again.

961
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 4: Who's ever going to hire a doctor who trying to

962
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 4: commit suicide? And then you know, like Daniel was saying

963
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 4: about the scapegoat since he couldn't get me to do

964
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 4: what he wanted all the time, because he was really

965
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 4: he was trying to groom all of us and to

966
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 4: have this sexual grooming, and I didn't cooperate. I ended

967
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 4: up the scapegoat, especially after Daniel was gone, so he

968
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 4: would he would beat me, he would starve me. I

969
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 4: spent a week in Pinehurst out on the porch. He

970
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 4: left me out on the porch without food or water,

971
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 4: with like a blanket, and I wasn't allowed to leave

972
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 4: the property, otherwise he was gonna call the police. Oh

973
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 4: my gosh, she would punch me in the face like

974
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 4: he would like regularly. It just it went on. It

975
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 4: was just it went on and on. Like almost anything

976
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 4: you could do to somebody he did to me.

977
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 2: And there is a footage of some of this stuff

978
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: which is just fucking horrible to see. I'm also glad

979
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: it exists for court for the case so that he

980
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 2: cannot continue to gaslight people. I'm so glad, But but

981
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: what an idiot, What a dumb move on his part

982
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: filming all of his abuse.

983
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 4: No, I mean, and he swore he was, He swore

984
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 4: it was gonna he was going to be vindicated with

985
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 4: all of this foot is.

986
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 5: He was like, no, I'm good brilling how crazy.

987
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 4: Everyone was towards me, and how badly behaved everyone was

988
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 4: towards me, and everyone's going to go to jail because

989
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 4: they hurt me. Ultimately, he would say.

990
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: Ultimately, do you think that this was about sex for him?

991
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: Because he did. He ended up stealing so much money

992
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: from all of your parents, turning all of you again,

993
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: like he told you of Felicia, that your your siblings

994
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: were poisoning you. And he really tried to separate you

995
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: from your families. So I just wanted to know, do

996
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: you guys know like a motive or do you know

997
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: what the hell was he doing?

998
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 3: Power I mean, I don't know if you want me to, Daniel,

999
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 3: I don't think there's a really good answer for this.

1000
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: The way that I thought about it is, however you

1001
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: want to think about, like what he believed or what

1002
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 3: he thought was true or wasn't whatever. He's clearly like

1003
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 3: a sick person, and I think that I think of

1004
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 3: it as someone who whose sickness was contagious and he

1005
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: just like needed to figure out a way to make

1006
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 3: us psychotic like he was, to make us delusional like

1007
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 3: he was. But I don't know, you know, it seemed

1008
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 3: like someone who was incapable of surviving in regular society

1009
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 3: and who was trying to like force his way into

1010
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 3: a version of survival, and who seemed to derive some

1011
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 3: kind of pleasure or satisfaction from torturing other people.

1012
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 2: I just would love to hear how you guys are

1013
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 2: doing now now seeing that he is actually being prosecuted

1014
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: and you're you're sharing your story, like, how are you please?

1015
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 4: Yah? Okay, I'm doing I'm so happy, really, that happy

1016
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 4: as the word elated. He was just sentence January twentieth,

1017
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 4: sixty years in prison, he's sixty three, so they could

1018
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 4: get out at one hundred and twenty three years old,

1019
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 4: effectively life and supervised release. So I mean, I'm just

1020
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 4: so glad the justice system worked and the judge really

1021
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 4: nailed it. He really he was really able to see

1022
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 4: the truth and and you know, stand by it, and

1023
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 4: I felt so validated.

1024
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 3: I'm so glad we get we get to be in

1025
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 3: the very small group of people who can say that

1026
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 3: they put their abuse or in prison, and a very

1027
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 3: small group of people who get to say that they

1028
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: put their cult leader in prison. And that's it's unbelievable,

1029
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: and I hope that more people get to say that.

1030
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 2: I know, oh my god too. But I'm so I'm

1031
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: so happy that just this is actually being served. You

1032
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: guys deserve it so much for what you've been through,

1033
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: and I yeah, I once again, I very much, we

1034
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.

1035
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: What do you feel about Isabella being prosecuted, Talia being prosecuted?

1036
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: What what is your feelings on that you don't have.

1037
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: To do.

1038
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: You don't know.

1039
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 3: Do you want to go?

1040
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 4: Sure, I'll go, I'll go. I think with you know,

1041
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 4: with Isabella, she was his first victim, and you know,

1042
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 4: she he he had He got her in a very

1043
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 4: vulnerable time and she was so young, and then she

1044
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 4: didn't know anything but Larry of life, like the only

1045
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,959
Speaker 4: life she ever knew was Larry. So I understood why

1046
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 4: she went the way that she did. I just I

1047
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 4: hope that I hope that as time passes and you know,

1048
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 4: she sees the series and sees, you know, how everyone

1049
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 4: else is doing that, she starts to make better choices

1050
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 4: for herself. Yeah, but I think you know, what Larry

1051
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 4: made her do is like is a prison sentence in

1052
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 4: and of itself, like having to live with that. Yeah,

1053
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 4: and then Talia, I don't, I don't really know. With Talia,

1054
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 4: I think she was just so unfortunate to be born

1055
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 4: to him that you know, what, what did what choice?

1056
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: You know, we're talking about choice, like what choice did

1057
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 4: she really have? And you know, fighting back against her dad.

1058
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: So it's an incredibly arthetic perspective to take. Yeah, yeah, wow, Okay,

1059
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 2: do you so the series is Stolen Youth inside the Cult,

1060
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 2: It's Sarah Lawrence on Hulu. And do you guys have

1061
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: anything of your own that you'd like to share in

1062
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: terms of like social media or any work that you

1063
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: do or anything. Daniel, go ahead, Daniel. You do poetry, Yeah,

1064
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 2: I do.

1065
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,959
Speaker 3: Yeah. I have a memoir that I had written about

1066
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 3: this called the London Woods nine, which is a reference

1067
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 3: to the dorm that we lived in or where I

1068
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: first met Larry. I don't really have anything to share

1069
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 3: as far our social media. I'm teaching a class with

1070
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 3: Stanford's Continuing Education Program on converting your most difficult memories

1071
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 3: into uh memoir class top before. I find narrative really helpful.

1072
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 2: Totally, that's awesome and anything.

1073
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 4: So I'm just working and trying to get back into

1074
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 4: life right now.

1075
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 2: Okay, wonderful.

1076
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 4: Next time I'll let you.

1077
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 2: Know that's a that's a great place to be get

1078
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 2: back to life. Thank you guys so much for talking

1079
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: to us today. Thank you, and have good rest of

1080
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 2: your day. O. Hey, Megan, so obviously so much more.

1081
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 2: I wish we could have asked them, but for now,

1082
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna ask you a question, okay, And the

1083
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: question is do you think that if you were at

1084
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: Sarah Lawrence and you met Larry Ray that you would

1085
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 2: have joined his group.

1086
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, goodbye forever. I would have been

1087
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: so deep and getting attention from a grown up. Yeah,

1088
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: especially one that's so wise. And I love slumber parties.

1089
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: I love when everybody puts little palettes on the floor

1090
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: and sleeps together. To just live that way would have

1091
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: been heavenly. I would have loved the community. I would

1092
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: have loved his like we're getting up at six and

1093
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: doing push ups together, and I would have just been

1094
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: sucked into getting my shit together. Uh forever.

1095
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds like you should join the military.

1096
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about it. Can you imagine.

1097
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Sleepovers every night, lots of structure.

1098
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: Laurene men yelling at me. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely

1099
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: would join. I think you would too.

1100
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: Huh oh, yeah, I think so for sure. I think

1101
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 2: like I have a I have a like I would say,

1102
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what adjective to use. I have an

1103
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 2: inordinate respect for authority that I really like. I have

1104
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: been like I am the kid who is terrified of

1105
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: getting in trouble with the teacher. But not only terrified

1106
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: of getting in trouble with the teacher, but I will

1107
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 2: try so hard to make them like me, you know,

1108
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: like I want the authority figure to like me. And

1109
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: if a man were to come along at that vulnerable

1110
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 2: time in my life and be like, here's what you

1111
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: gotta do. I know these government people, here's my photo

1112
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 2: with real politician like I would be. I would be in.

1113
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 2: I would be sold, especially because I don't know, like whatever.

1114
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 2: I have a history of being drawn to men with

1115
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: authoritative tones in their voice. And yeah, it would not

1116
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 2: have been good for me.

1117
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have been I would have been super

1118
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: fox with him.

1119
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank god he can't keep doing this to people.

1120
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Now put him away. Well, thank you for being here

1121
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: with us for another week of trust Me. We can't

1122
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: wait to see you again next time, and as always,

1123
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

1124
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 2: Flags, and ever ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me

1125
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 2: as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1126
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1127
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1128
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 1: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1129
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 1: Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1130
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: I'm ula Lola on Instagram, and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1131
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1132
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1133
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.