1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Summer camp, the great outdoors, 2 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: swimming into lake, campfire, cooking, late nights with flashlights and tents, 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: friends old and new. But three little girls were robbed 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: of that and so much more. Three girls just eight, 5 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: nine and ten, strangled, dead, dumped in sleeping bags, their 6 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: lives cut short by a real life monster or monsters. 7 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation. In series X 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: one eleven, we follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series 10 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: The Girls Scout and Murders all week on Crime Stories. 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. These woods in northeastern Oklahoma 12 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: are the site of one of the war crimes imaginable. 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: Two busloads of Girl Scouts left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott, 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: a girl Scout retreat located on the Cherokee Reservation some 15 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: fifty miles away. Among the girls were ten year old 16 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: Denise Milner, nine year old Michelle Gouse an eight year 17 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: old Laurie Farmer. What happened next is unthinkable. Three young 18 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: girls being sexually assaulted, murdered. There are children's names you 19 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: always remember, Laurie and Dennisa, Michelle, They're there and they're 20 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: never going to go away. Joining me right now. Sheriff 21 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: Weaver's son, Herb Weaver, Herb, thank you so much for 22 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: being with us. You were actually at the crime scene, correct, 23 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: What if anything did you observe the morning after that happened. 24 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: I just happened to be at a cast station getting 25 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: some coffee and one of my dad's deputies pulled in 26 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: the fuel up and he said there was something going 27 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: on down at the girl scout camp. My dad had 28 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: summoned all of them to come down there. He did 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: not know what was going on, so I just jumped 30 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: in his cruiser with him and went down there and 31 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: came upon those little girls. And to the best of 32 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: my memory, when I got there, there was probably sixteen 33 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: eighteen people there, my dad's deputies, my dad, OHP was there. 34 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: OSBI had not showed up yet, but we were visiting 35 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: yesterday about a strange footprint that didn't match mister Hart. 36 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: And I can see very well how that could have happened, 37 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: because it was pretty chaotic, as you can well imagine. 38 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: It's something I wish I never would have been involved. 39 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: Why did you say that, her, Well, just because just 40 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: the scene itself Nancy, that's something I don't want anybody 41 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: ever has to see. What did you see? Well, three 42 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: little girls murdered, just it's just senseless. Were the bodies 43 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: dragged out of the tent? They were outside the tent 44 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: my recollection they were in three separate locations, but Faith 45 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: told me that they were all three together. But it's 46 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: been forty five years ago. So when you say they 47 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: were outside of the tent, were they in their sleeping bags? Yes, 48 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like someone dragged them all to the general 49 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: same location to get rid of the bodies, which would 50 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: be unusual if someone were simply on foot. How can 51 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: you get rid of three bodies if you're on foot 52 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: as opposed to a vehicle. When you say the scene 53 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: was chaotic, Herbweaver, what do you mean by that, Well, 54 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: there is several people around, and I mean this is 55 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: something that you don't when you get up and go 56 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: to work in the morning, you don't expect to see 57 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: it seemed like this. So I mean, how do you 58 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: prepare yourself or something like that. I don't think that 59 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: you do or that you can. When you say you 60 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: would not wish that site on anyone, it's I'm trying 61 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: to take in three little girls, dead in their sleeping bags, 62 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: dragged out of the tent. Where exactly were they? From memory, Nancy, 63 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: it seems to me like they were probably I'm going 64 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: to say, thirty yards away from the tent. Wow. When 65 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: you looked at the girls, were they obviously dead or 66 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: did they look like they were sleeping? No, they were dead. 67 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: How did you know instinctively that they were dead? Well, 68 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: number one, they weren't breathing, so you would assume they 69 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: were dead. Were they in odd positions they wouldn't be 70 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: in if they were alive. Yes, it was a terrible scene. 71 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: Did the girls families know yet? You know, Nancy, I 72 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: cannot answer that. I wouldn't want that job, Herb. No, No, madam. 73 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: I want to say when I got there, it probably 74 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: around eight o'clock, something like something of that nature. Seventy 75 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: thirty or eight in the morning. Yes, ma'am. So the 76 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: girls had not been dead for very long. In fact, 77 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: it's my understanding when they were first discovered, at least 78 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: one of their bodies was still warm. I can't answer that. 79 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. How has this haunted you 80 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: over these years, Herb, Well, I've got at the time 81 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: I had one more girl. I think I think Danielle 82 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: was two or three. So it because of those events. 83 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: It changed our lives, the way we raised our kids. 84 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: You know, crime has changed my wife too, the way 85 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: I raised my twins and you know her. But Weaver 86 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: when they went to Scout camp for the first time, 87 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: I went to and made my husband go. We went 88 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: three weeks of training to be volunteers. Yeah, because of 89 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: this case. I just couldn't let them go. Guys with 90 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: me is Sheriff Weaver's son, Herb, who went to this 91 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: crime scene seeing the girl's body still there just a 92 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: couple of hours after they were all three raped and murdered. Today, 93 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: two unlikely sources confess long kept family secrets. It begins 94 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: when Fate Phillips gets a call from Kimberly Baker, the 95 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: niece of suspect Jeane Hart. He was charged and then 96 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: acquitted of all three child rapes and murders. Take a 97 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: listen to this. As far as we knew, Schriff Weaver 98 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: had railroaded the investigation, had planet evidence, had done all 99 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: these things to win the case Ince Gene for whatever reason, 100 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. As I started to learn a lot 101 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: more about him. I learned that Jean wasn't this football 102 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: star angel personality that I had been taught. A narrative 103 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: that I was given about him was not correct. He 104 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: was a dangerous individual. He was somebody, according to close 105 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: family members, who they did not trust. They were scared 106 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: of him. That information that I had from my family 107 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: growing up, and then seeing the new pieces of the 108 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: puzzles I got to put together, I realized that they 109 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: were right to be fearful. They were right to look 110 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: against this person as as a dangerous individual because things 111 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: that he had done, had confessed to, had been convicted of. 112 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: Tell the story of somebody who was able to full 113 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: and make fearful to his siblings and his family. You 114 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: are hearing the voice of Kimberly Baker. Kimberly Baker is 115 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: the niece of Jeane Hart. Now curious to you, herb Weaver. 116 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: When you hear claims that Sheriff Weaver had railroaded Jeane 117 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: Hart and even planet evidence, do you believe that? No, 118 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: not at all. I don't believe that. I know that 119 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: this whole case completely consume my father, as it should 120 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: ask But I was raised by an honest man and 121 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: in my opinion, there was no planet evidence. I'll tell 122 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: you how how consumed he was when they captured mister Hart. 123 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: I asked one of the OSBI agents, who has since passed, 124 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: I said, why didn't you call my dad to go 125 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: with you to apprehend me? And he told me he said, 126 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: because we knew that he would kill Jean Hart, which 127 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: should tell you how consumed he was by the whole affair. 128 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: I hear you. It took me a while prosecuting violent 129 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: felonies day in day out, until I got to the 130 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: point where I understood why law enforcement would just as 131 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: soon kill the defendant that could do something like this, 132 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: And there's always a chance the defendant will get out 133 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: and strike again on another little eight year old girl. 134 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: Not condoning it. I just understand it. Time stories with me. 135 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: It'sy Grace and joining me right now, two very special guests. 136 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: You heard the voice of Jean Heart's niece, Kimberly Baker. 137 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: She is joining us and you can find her at 138 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: kim Baker artwork dot com and on Insta along with me. 139 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: Baker the great niece of Jean Heart. She is a 140 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: grad student of Oklahoma State University and a grief outreach 141 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: worker at University Counseling Services to both of the Baker guests. Welcome, Kimberly. 142 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: What do you mean by Sheriff Weaver planet evidence? I 143 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: think that for the most part, growing up, that was 144 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: sort of implied by my family that there were rumors 145 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: that Sheriff Weaver was very embarrassed that Heart had escaped 146 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: and while under Weaver's direction of those institutions, and that 147 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: he had a sort of vendetta against Heart, and that 148 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: one of a likely you know, seeing that, well, they 149 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: planted evidence. Okay, so do you know of any evidence 150 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: that was planted? You said implied rumors. Yes, there were 151 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: implied rumors. There were rumors that there was a glove 152 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: found at the crime scene that was owned by my 153 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: uncle Jean, and that that was planted there at the scene. Okay, 154 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: hold on, let's address that. Faith Phillips joining me, Cherokee, 155 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down? Who 156 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: really reignited the Girl Scout Martyrs case? Faith? Was there 157 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: a glove at the same The answer to that specific 158 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: question is a no. But there's a lot of other information, Okay, 159 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of other information. Okay, let's just take it 160 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: one by one. So Kimberly Baker, you stay and this 161 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: is gene Hart's niece suspecting the murders, tried and acquitted. 162 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: You say rumors evidence was planted and that it was implied. 163 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: So there was no glove at the crime scene, so 164 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: that wasn't planet. Is there any other item that you 165 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: can think of recall remember that you believe was planted. No, 166 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: unfortunately no. So the whole thing about planning evidence being 167 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: a glove, that's not true. Okay, maybe Meg knows something 168 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: about this, Meg Baker, thank you for being with us. 169 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: It's been stated that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence. What evidence 170 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: could that be other than the glove which doesn't exist? 171 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: So from what I recall from like reading several books 172 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: and several I'm watching a lot of two documentary and 173 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, just some information of that, like implied rumors. 174 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: I do recall there being like a compact like a 175 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: mirror and something some kind of shaving thing that being 176 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: like rumored to have been planted, right, a mirror. I'm 177 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: not sure if it was like a mirror or like 178 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: a compact mirror or like some glasses as well. Okay, 179 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: let's address that and my mind is completely open. I 180 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: don't have a dog in this fight. I don't have 181 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: any skin in the game. I just want to know 182 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: the truth. Okay, Faith Phillips, So what can you tell 183 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: me about the mirror and the contacts or glasses? Okay, 184 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: So here's the situation with the mirror and the corn 185 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: cob pipe. Both of those items were in a trunk 186 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: with one of the campers at the scene. So then 187 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: we have the OSBI apprehending Jane Hart at the Pigeonhouse 188 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: after you'd been on the run for nine months, and 189 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: at that time, they executed a search and they didn't 190 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: produce anything that they felt tied Jean Heart to the 191 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: scene at the Pigeon House. Then months later they go 192 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: back and execute a second search for the Pigeon House 193 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: and in that house they find a corn cob pipe 194 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: and a mirror. So this is extremely complicated. Nancy Grace, Well, 195 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: let me ask you a question right off the bat. 196 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the crime scene. Yes, evidence planted at 197 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: the crime scene. You're referring to a pipe that was 198 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: found at the Pigeon House where Heart was ultimately apprehended. 199 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: So that's not the crime scene. That's right, the reason 200 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: why at the crime scene. We also have photographs, these 201 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: two photographs that are at the cave, and there's testimony 202 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: in the Prelimbs later says that those photographs had been 203 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: seen in the Sheriff's office after Jeane Hart had escaped 204 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: from prison. So these are the things that have never 205 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: been explained. Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, I'm 206 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: asking you about evidence planted at the crime scene. Absolutely 207 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: no evidence planted at the crime scene. Okay, that was okay, 208 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: Just so you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm a JD, 209 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: not a DDS. I don't know how to pull teeth. 210 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: So we're right now dealing with the accusation against Sheriff 211 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: Weaver that evidence was planted by him at the Girls 212 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: Scout murder crime scene. That would be around the tent 213 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: and where the bodies were found. Let me just go 214 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: it out. There is anybody on this panel know of 215 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: evidence planted at the crime scene by Sheriff Weaver or 216 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: anyone else, not me? Okay, good, good to know. So 217 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: now Faith, you're telling us about other evidence photos that 218 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: were found and Sheriff Weaver's office of the cave slash 219 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: Roots seller where Jane Hart was hiding out. Is that correct? 220 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: That's correct. There's later there's testimony in the pre lens 221 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: that say that those photographs were seen in the sheriff's desk. 222 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: And what would be wrong with that? He's investigating the case. 223 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't there be photos of where the purpose apprehended 224 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: the alleged purp. If this is true, this testimony that 225 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: those photographs were in the sheriff's desk, then that would 226 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: indicate that gene Hart would have had to have broken 227 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: back into the sheriff's office to get those photographs to 228 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: put them in the cave that's used to tie him 229 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: to the crime scene. Where were the photos allegedly found 230 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: to start with? The photo after the murders? The photographs 231 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: are found in this root seller that everybody refers to 232 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: as a cave. And why would thus not have been 233 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: in the sheriff's office to start with? After the search 234 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: the allegation the testimony indicates. Okay, so this testimony is 235 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: from an employee of Sheriff Weaver, and he says that 236 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: he saw those photographs in the sheriff's desk after gene 237 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: Hart had escaped from prison. Right you understand, So the 238 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: photographs are found at this cave and this root seller. 239 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: So if that testimony is true that the photographs were 240 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: in the sheriff's disk, then gene Hart would have had 241 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: to break back into the sheriff's office get those photos 242 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: and take them to the cave. Interesting, interesting accusation, guys, 243 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: I want you to hear more. Take a listen. Throughout 244 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: my life, there were occasional discussions amongst the adults that 245 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: I would overhear. I recognized a name from the list 246 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: of names that you've shared with me as being a 247 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: member of a family that we were close with in 248 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: our neighborhood. I had interactions with this person as a child. 249 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: I knew this person, and it was also a person 250 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: that another member of my family had made a statement 251 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: about at some point in my life as being had 252 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: having some involvement or knowing something. And then as I 253 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: got older, a family member that I trust shared that 254 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: name with me as being involved in a private conversation 255 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: that we had, as well as two other names, which 256 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: are the list you're hearing. Kimberly Baker describing conversations she 257 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: would hear she was growing up about other potential suspects. 258 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: Who are they Kimberly, I don't feel very comfortable naming 259 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: those names since they never came up, as far as 260 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: I understand, in an official capacity. Okay, wait a minute, 261 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: So you are telling me you think that there are 262 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: other suspects that murdered and rape three little girls that 263 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: you won't give the names, not in an unofficial capacity. Okay, 264 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: well hold on. Maybe Fate Phillips is familiar with what 265 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: you're saying. What about a fight. Well, this is this 266 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: has been the issue consistently, is that we want if 267 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: there are suspects who are associated with the case, we 268 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: would like for them to have a fair trial. Of course, 269 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: we want to exhaust all leads, and there is an 270 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: active investigation at this time, and so we don't want 271 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: to repeat what happened in nineteen seventy nine when that 272 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: trial happened. We want a fair trial as guaranteed by 273 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: the constitution. My question, do you fight this? Do you 274 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: know who she's talking about? Yes, I absolutely know exactly. 275 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with these names. I've been hearing them 276 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: over and over again for the last two years. Are 277 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: they being in I mean, are you sharing them with us? 278 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: Are we going to all still being the dark about 279 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: who may have martyrd three little girls and write them too. 280 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm happy to tell you the name of Buddy Bristol, 281 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: who's he talked about that and he apparently confessed that's right, 282 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: and there's next. I'm not gonna I think I would 283 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: undermine the investigation at this point, that which is active 284 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: if I name these people in public. Okay, Nathan Clark 285 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: joining me, high profile lawyer out of Tulsa. You can 286 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: find him at Rhodes Okla dot com with Rhodes hieronymous Nathan. 287 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: This is exactly why the law is constructed after hundreds 288 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: of years of jurisprudence that if the defense has a 289 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: particular alternate theory, like if there's another suspect they don't 290 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: think their client did it, they're not allowed to just 291 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: throw things out in Courtla. I heard when I was 292 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: growing up, So somebody did it, but I can't tell 293 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: you the name, and I can't don't know anything else 294 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: about it. That cannot come into court. A phantom cannot 295 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: be brought in as a defense. There has to be 296 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: a name, like Buddy Bristol is a very strong suspect, 297 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: I think. But as long as people won't give names. 298 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean, that's why that type of speculation is not 299 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: allowed in court. Well, think that there's a fascinating component 300 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: to all this that involves this change in the investigation. Yes, 301 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: for all these years we've had the Oklahoma State Bureau 302 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: of Investigation with having primary investigative jurisdiction. With a recent 303 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court case McGirt versus Oklahoma, that investigation has 304 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: shifted as to the Native suspects to the Cherokee Marshals 305 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: and a federal Bureau of Investigation. That shift is leading 306 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: to new outcomes. That shift is leading to new information 307 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: that's currently actively being investigated, and I think that's what's 308 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: trying to be protected, is to give that process a 309 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: real chance to proceed, even after all these years and 310 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: after this knee processes implies as anybody come forward with 311 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: another name, I know there are other people who are 312 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: actively being investigated by the Investigative fact Department. Was that you, Yes, 313 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: there are four names that have come up in the investigation, 314 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: and all four have been turned over to the authorities 315 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: in a current an active investigation, And so I feel 316 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: like it's my duty to make sure that I don't 317 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: interfere with that investigation. In any way. So there are 318 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: four names. Kimberly, Baker and Meg Baker may be right 319 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: that someone else was involved. I don't have any reason 320 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: to believe that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence, but those two 321 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: are not mutual exclusive. They can both be true. Sheriff 322 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: Weaver may not have planted evidence because there's nothing to 323 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: suggest that he did, and gene Hart could be innocent. 324 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: So both of those things can be true at the 325 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: same time. And I also heard something that I found 326 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: really interesting that a motive for Sheriff we were to 327 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: have planet evidence is that he was in charge of 328 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: the prisons or jails from which Heart escaped. Is that 329 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: true faith, was he in charge of the jail. Yes, 330 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: Sheriff Weaver was running the prison at that time White 331 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: the prison or the county jail. Sheriff Weaver was operating 332 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: the county jail in May's County at the time Jean 333 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: Heart escaped. Twice. Herb did Heart escape from the county 334 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: jail or the penitentiary county jail. He was brought from 335 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: the penitentiary back to the county jail, got it to 336 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: be tried for some other fans that really hard to believe. 337 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: That your dad would plant evidence because of inmate escape. 338 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: But I've certainly been surprised before about so many things 339 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: in criminal in criminal law, listen to this. I always 340 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: had like this feeling that he had done it, or 341 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: that he was involved at least I know that there 342 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: was like something. But Kim and I talked about on 343 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: the phone about like some alternative hypotheses. I know that 344 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: my friend in high school, her dad even had said, 345 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: like there's some other person that had seen like two 346 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: other people plus Gene walking down the road like the 347 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: day of the crime. My jaw kind of dropped when 348 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: Megan mentioned hearing about the men walking down the road 349 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: the morning of the crime. This all tracks with what 350 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: former sheriff Paul Smith shared with me, and I'm trying 351 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: to get my mind around this. Could it be possible 352 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: that everything we believe about this case is wrong? And 353 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: who is willing to go to the mat to seek 354 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: the truth. One thing that concerns me, Doctor Scott A 355 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: jousts with me. Forensic psychologists out in Minnesota thirty two 356 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: years experience addressing matters just like this author of When 357 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: I Love You turns violent and physical abuses sex offenders. 358 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: You can find them at Forensic Consultation dot org. Doctor Johnson, 359 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: how many times have you heard it said, oh Jay 360 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: didn't do it, please stop, or oj Son did it 361 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: with him, or somebody else did it, or there's a 362 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: police conspiracy. No, there was no police conspiracy. You think 363 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: those cops could have kept their yap shut this long 364 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: that I have a multimillion dollar book deal if thera 365 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: betic conspiracy and Simpson did not act with anyone else, 366 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: his son didn't do it, he did it. I mean, 367 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: I've heard so many conspiracy theories. What is it with 368 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories? Well, I think everyone's got their five 369 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: cents to add to it, and what makes sense to 370 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: someone who's not really educated about investigation, ETCeteras. They kind 371 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: of run with wealth in their head, what makes sense 372 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: or what they want to believe or what they want 373 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: to believe, and then they look at a crime and 374 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: say one person couldn't have done this alone, when in fact, 375 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: they very well could do it well, especially if they're 376 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: jacked up on something like crick, cocaine or PCB. Now 377 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about potentially true allegations that someone else either 378 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: helped Heart or was completely responsible for these murders. Remember, 379 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: Heart was acquitted at trial. Does that mean he didn't 380 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: do it? No? Does that mean someone helped him do it? Maybe? 381 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: Does that mean he's innocent? Maybe? Now you're hearing from 382 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: Meg Baker and Kim Baker, the niece and great niece 383 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: of the suspect, jene Hart. Remember acquitted. Listen to this. 384 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: I think that the lead up to the crime, you know, 385 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: was orchestrated by my uncle. I think that he enjoyed 386 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: being able to control others to do his bidding in 387 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: this respect, So the incitement of fear, through the stalking, 388 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: through believing of different effigies and clues and things like that. 389 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: I have heard through some family members that the people 390 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: other than my uncle bat acted in this case were 391 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: totally out of their minds, on massive like for several days, 392 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: out of their minds, and that they went to the 393 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: camp that Jane did most of the acting. He controlled 394 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: them to get there. You know, you may think this 395 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: is far fetched, and it does sound far fetched that 396 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: gene Hart planned the whole thing and somebody else did 397 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: it sounds crazy to me, but think about it. That's 398 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: exactly what Charles Manson did. He whipped up his followers 399 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: got them all high on drugs, and then they went 400 00:28:51,400 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: and committed horrible, horrible mass murder while he laughed in glee. 401 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: Is what happened. It's in my experienced dealing with similar crimes, 402 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: not one of this magnitude, but similar. It's not uncommon 403 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: there's multiple people involved, and even looking at the details 404 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: of the crime scene. Again, I'm not a police officer 405 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: or investigator, but certainly to have subdued three people, Oh, 406 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: come on, they're eight years old and they're a sleep 407 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: How hard is that. I could take my son in 408 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: a sleeping bag and drag him out of the tent 409 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: and put him in the pond and he wouldn't uti 410 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: he got wet. All I'm saying is there may have 411 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: been others involved, and it's not uncommon that there's multiple people, 412 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: especially like you said, they're doing drugs or things like that. 413 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: Especially this whole thing started as a robbing spree. They're 414 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: gonna all creep around and get into counselors tents and 415 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: find things. I could see more than one person being involved. 416 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: It's called a robbing crew. That happens every day. But 417 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: three people agreeing to rape and murder three little girls 418 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: ages eight ten. That's a little it's a little tougher 419 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: pill to swallow. Time stories with Nancy Grace. I want 420 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: to go back to Kim and Meg Baker, Kimberly Baker 421 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: and Meg Baker, Kim the niece of murder suspect Jean Hart, 422 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: Meg the great niece, and they're telling what some would 423 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: think it's a fantastical story that multiple people were involved 424 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: in this. It has happened before. And I am not 425 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: poo pooing the idea, Baker ladies, I'm not. I think 426 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: it's a stretch logistically, But when you think of a 427 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: robbing crew going in, that's not hard for me to imagine, 428 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: like two or three guys getting together, we're gonna go 429 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: rob everybody while they're asleep. But three people intending to 430 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: go in and rape and murder and keeping quiet about it, 431 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: that's a whole other animal. What did you what did 432 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: you mean in your statement, Meg, that you have always 433 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: heard that other people were involved at anything other than 434 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: gossip or raymer lead you to the conclusion that your 435 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: great uncle is innocent. Um, Well, I would say that 436 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: it was more just like when I was trying to 437 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: understand or conceptualize how this kind of crime could happen. 438 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: I was thinking about, like logistically kind of similar to 439 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: like what we've been talking about. In my viewpoint, it 440 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: seems like that would be really difficult to manage three 441 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: girls in keeping them quiet and so. And also just 442 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: like from some conversations with my own mother, who is 443 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: the person who originally pulled me to the side and 444 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: told me that our family was involved in this kind 445 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: of crime, it was kind of like essentially that it 446 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: was just like my logical thinking. Okay, so not any 447 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: firm evidence, but other than my friends conversation, yeah, okay, 448 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: what about it, Kimberly Baker, the idea that they purps 449 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: or hopped up on acid days ahead of time, that 450 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: your uncle was the puppeteer. I find that theory to 451 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: have some validity if it feels correct to me based 452 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: on my observations and my own research, my own you know, journaling. 453 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: When I think about what my family has told me 454 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: over the years about this person, it seems like it 455 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: could be possible, possible have been, okay, to be the puppeteer. 456 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: And of course Nathan Clark, partner at Rhodes Hieronymous in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Nathan. 457 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: Of course you and I know as trial lawyers that 458 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: it's beyond a reasonable death out. That's the standard. Not possible, 459 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: not probable, not what the conclusion you came to in 460 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: your journaling. Everything must be founded in fact correct, and 461 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: that's the challenge with a forty five year old investigation. Man, 462 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: you're not kidding, Nathan Clark. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 463 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, Is it possible that one 464 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: person did this? Is it more probable that three people 465 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: did this? Quickly? Yeah? I think that it's very difficult 466 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: to say that one person would have necessarily have done 467 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: this Where you're controlling these three little girls, and so 468 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: the idea is that you find them not too far 469 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: away from the tent. It seems as though that this 470 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: was an incomplete attempt to remove them from the location. 471 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: I agree goes back to Buddy Brustol that fate told 472 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: us about right who would plan to put them in 473 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: this VW and dumped the car in the water, and 474 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: that car coincidentally disappeared from all registry or all, no 475 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: one has ever seen it again. I hear you that 476 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: disposal issue, Joe Scott Morgan right once again dragging the 477 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: three bodies out, and then suddenly, why would you drag 478 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: the bodies out and leave them in plain view if 479 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: you were not going to go dispose of them. That's 480 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: a theory that rears its ugly head when Faith Phillips 481 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: told us about another potential suspect, Buddy Bristol. Speaking of 482 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: Faith Phillips, listen, I just got out of my meeting 483 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: with the Cherokee Nation Marshals, and I feel heard They 484 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: listened to the whole story from day one all the 485 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: way through day three eighty four, whatever today is, and 486 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: I can tell that they believed what I said. They 487 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: looked through the evidence. They were a little bit overwhelmed, 488 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: I think because of the volume of evidence, But I 489 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: told them that's okay. I've been overwhelmed by myself. Now 490 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: that the marshals are in possession of everything and McGirt 491 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: has determined that they do have jurisdiction, they've promised to 492 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: go through it all and determine if they will open 493 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: the investigation, which goes back to what Nathan Clark told us, 494 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Tulsa, that under new laws, 495 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: the Cherokee Nation is investigating this. So Faith Phillips finally 496 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: gets a call that Cherokee Marshalls are creating a task 497 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: force dedicated to the Girls Scout and murder investigation. What 498 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: does that mean to you, Faith Phillips. Are the potential 499 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: for suspects still alive? Do they still live in and 500 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: around Locust Grove? Yes, we still have the suspects living 501 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: in and around Locust Grove in this area. And that's 502 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: really what drove me from the beginning. I said, you know, 503 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: if there's even a chance that someone who was there 504 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: that night but saw what happened was involved in whatever way, 505 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: that they're still in my community. And that had been 506 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: kind of the undercurrent all of this time. You don't 507 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: stir up this case. They're these rumors that we keep 508 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: talking about that keep swirling around. And that's the worst 509 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: thing you can do is tell me that I can't 510 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: do something. Fate Phillips really reignited this investigation. Was Jeane 511 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: Hart guilty? He was acquitted? What about these four potential suspects? 512 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: Fate Phillips is living there knowing these people are walking 513 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: and breathing, still alive. Did they take part in the 514 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: murder and rape of three little girls and why are 515 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: they still walking amongst us? We follow the very latest 516 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: developments in the brand new Fox Station series The Girl 517 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: Scout Murders here at Crime Stories all week tomorrow. Why 518 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: has it taken nearly fifty years to find the truth? 519 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: Plus would there be a different outcome in solving the 520 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: Girl Scout Murders? Now in twenty twenty two, we wait 521 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: as justice and faults Nancy Grace crimes story signing not 522 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: he advised