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Speaker 1: Guess what will? What's that? Mango? So? I know Portlandia

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Speaker 1: has kind of mocked Portlands and the stereotypes mercilessly, but

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Speaker 1: can I just tell you about one thing that made

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Speaker 1: me fall in love with the city? Yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: what's that? So the first time I was visiting, we

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Speaker 1: were staying at a friend's place in the city and

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Speaker 1: we decided to go downtown and Lizzie is big on

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Speaker 1: public transportation, so she made me take the bus. It

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Speaker 1: was the super rainy day and gray, but we got

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Speaker 1: on and we had this really long bus ride, so

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Speaker 1: we watched a lot of people get on and off

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Speaker 1: and here's what's amazing to me. Every single person who

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Speaker 1: got on the bus thanked the bus driver as they

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Speaker 1: got off. It like it was really amazing and so civil.

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Speaker 1: And that day was so gray and everyone could have

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Speaker 1: been miserable, but the fact that everyone, like this whole

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Speaker 1: group of people one by one, where each telling the

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Speaker 1: bus driver thank you for doing his job, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it just made me so happy and it made me

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Speaker 1: want to thank the bus driver too. But it also

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Speaker 1: made me wonder, like, why isn't every other place in

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Speaker 1: the US like this? Why isn't this just the expected

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Speaker 1: behavior across the US? And of course, as you and

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Speaker 1: I both know, as full as the world is of

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Speaker 1: good people were also played with horrible internet commenters and

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Speaker 1: surly reality show judges and politicians who are anything but decent,

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Speaker 1: and it makes you wonder is the world getting ruder?

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Speaker 1: Do scientists really believe that rudeness spreads like an affection?

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Speaker 1: And what can we do to change this tide? And

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Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about today. Let's dive in a

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Speaker 1: their podcast. Listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will

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Speaker 1: Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend

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Speaker 1: man guest Ticketer and sitting on the soundproof booth sporting

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Speaker 1: his what's it say? I'm Bart Simpson. Who the heck

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Speaker 1: are you? T? Shirt? That's our pal and producer Christen McNeil.

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Speaker 1: That is one rude T shirt. You know, when when

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Speaker 1: The Simpsons first came out on the air and that

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Speaker 1: shirt came out in fifth grade, kids in my school

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Speaker 1: either had to turn their shirts around or put duct

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Speaker 1: tape over the word heck and uh, and then the

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Speaker 1: shirts got banned. Yeah, I remember parents thinking like these

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Speaker 1: kids today and shaking their heads but you know, actually

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Speaker 1: that's always been the case. Kids have always been rude,

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Speaker 1: and parents have always complained about it. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: we have the perfect person to chat with about that

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Speaker 1: and all things rude, the author of a new book.

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Speaker 1: F you very much understanding the culture of rudeness and

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Speaker 1: what we can do about it, Danny Wallace. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Part Time Genius. Thank you very much, pleased to be here. So, Danny,

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Speaker 1: one of the most amazing things to me about the book,

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Speaker 1: and it is truly, truly wonderful. I'm just amazed that

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Speaker 1: it was inspired by a hot dog. Would you mind

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Speaker 1: telling us a little bit about that story? Of course? Um, yes,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was inspired by by hot dog. I

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Speaker 1: like hot dogs. There's no crime in that, um, and

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Speaker 1: there was. There was one day where I really fancied

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Speaker 1: the hot dog, and my son wanted a hot dog

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Speaker 1: as well, and we found a place that sold hot

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Speaker 1: dogs advertised, you know, the hot dogs that it was selling.

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Speaker 1: So so really this should have been very, very easy,

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Speaker 1: and this is as long as the story should ever

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Speaker 1: have been. But I went inside to get the hot dog. Again,

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Speaker 1: I've done it before. I know what I'm doing. Um,

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Speaker 1: I go in and I asked for the hot dog.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if you've ever walked in, it's

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Speaker 1: too I don't know, well anywhere really where it just

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Speaker 1: feels like the person behind the counter has already taken

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Speaker 1: against you somehow, And that's really how it felt. There

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Speaker 1: was something in the air, some sort of vibe, and

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Speaker 1: she made me pay up front, which I thought was unusual.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it wasn't just like a fast food thing.

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Speaker 1: It was a proper kind of little diner style restaurant

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Speaker 1: down by the seaside um. But you know, I did

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Speaker 1: everything that was required of me, and then I was

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Speaker 1: standing waiting for it, and she made us kind of

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Speaker 1: stand outside and kind of fifteen minutes passed, and that

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Speaker 1: seemed like the right amount of time to pass for

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Speaker 1: what should be a very quick meal to make for

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Speaker 1: me to go in and ask where it was. She

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Speaker 1: kept going, you don't understand how it works, and I

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Speaker 1: kept going, well, I do understand how it works. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had a hotdog, and you give me the hot dog,

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Speaker 1: and she keeps she keeps going, they're cooked to order.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, well, I ordered one and you

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Speaker 1: haven't cooked it. You know, I've been to restaurance before that,

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Speaker 1: that's how every restaurant works. And at one point she

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Speaker 1: ended up saying something very insulting, or at least it

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Speaker 1: sounded insulting. She she said, you're probably the sort of

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Speaker 1: people who'd queue up for forty minutes for fish and chips. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I I still be done. If they don't know what

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Speaker 1: that means. It struck to the very core of me

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Speaker 1: um and maybe question who I would I use forty

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Speaker 1: minutes official chips? I don't know. I don't know worry

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Speaker 1: em anymore. The reason I realized that I was kind

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Speaker 1: of going a bit mad with this and I was

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Speaker 1: obsessing over it because for a couple of days, like

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Speaker 1: when someone's been truly rude to you and they've broken

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Speaker 1: those rules, it's very confusing you and up quite bewildered.

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Speaker 1: It's why people can't often come up with something witty

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Speaker 1: to say in the moment. And because they disrespected you

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Speaker 1: or made you feel kind of publicly disrespected, you are

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Speaker 1: trying to claw back some of that respect somehow, And

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Speaker 1: so it kept going over and over in my head,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I'll be driving around and they'd be

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Speaker 1: like a lull in the conversation between me and my

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Speaker 1: wife and me and my son, and then out of nowhere,

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Speaker 1: I would just immediately go that woman was unbelievable, and

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Speaker 1: just start talking about her again. And the next night

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Speaker 1: I drove past the diner and it was completely dark

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Speaker 1: and it was empty, and I found myself, as a

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Speaker 1: grown man, flipping off a diner and with no one

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Speaker 1: in it. There was nothing to be gained by doing it,

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Speaker 1: apart from my own sort of sanity. And that's when

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Speaker 1: I realized, you know, these these rude things that happened

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Speaker 1: to us, they they send us temporarily insane, I think,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to find out why. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think one of the amazing things about it is that

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Speaker 1: you actually write that rudeness is airborne and the passes

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Speaker 1: from person to person like a yarn. And I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear you talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: science has shown that that really rudeness does spread. It

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Speaker 1: is kind of contagious, and it kind of spreads throughout

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Speaker 1: an office or a school or a workplace or wherever

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Speaker 1: um in much the same way as the common cold.

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Speaker 1: So those people who were sitting there, shiny eyed, gleeful, watching,

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Speaker 1: you know, an altercation between a hot dog less man

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Speaker 1: and the keeper of the hot dogs. When they saw

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Speaker 1: people being rude to each other without realizing it, they

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Speaker 1: will now sort of be infected. It will be much

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Speaker 1: easier for them to be rude later on in their day.

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Speaker 1: And when someone's being directly rude to you, and again

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Speaker 1: those unwritten rules kind of have been broken. Um. If

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Speaker 1: they've been rude to you, you're going to feel much

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Speaker 1: worse in yourself. It can affect um how you were

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Speaker 1: lacks after work. You won't be able to switch off

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Speaker 1: in quite the same way you might be snapp here

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Speaker 1: with your partner. Your downtime won't be as as downtimey

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Speaker 1: as you as you'd like it. Your rest period won't

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Speaker 1: be as RESTful as you'd like it. If you snap

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Speaker 1: at your partner, they now being infected and they'll then

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Speaker 1: take that rudeness elsewhere. Um. But anyone who even just

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Speaker 1: witnesses the rudeness will become primed for more rudeness. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, if you've seen someone you know in the

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Speaker 1: line for coffee this morning, be rude to the barista

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Speaker 1: even though it had nothing to do with you. Later

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Speaker 1: on in the day, because you've experienced that moment, and

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Speaker 1: it may have dredged up some kind of you memories

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Speaker 1: of rudeness for you, and feelings of being slightly on edge.

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Speaker 1: You're much more likely to now see rudeness where none

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Speaker 1: was intended. So you might get an email which is

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Speaker 1: perfectly neutral in tone, and yet you will be more

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Speaker 1: likely to read sarcasm into it or maybe passive aggression. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that person is completely oblivious. They just they put

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Speaker 1: a smiley there just to be nice. But you're like,

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Speaker 1: what is this smiley really me? So it kind of

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Speaker 1: puts us all on edge even just seeing it. So

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Speaker 1: I was recently on a train and I paid extra

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Speaker 1: to be on a quiet car, and this person came

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Speaker 1: in with their cell phone and just chatted the whole time.

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Speaker 1: And I just could not ignore the person, and uh,

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Speaker 1: personally because they were bragging about themselves continuously, but also

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Speaker 1: just because I couldn't avoid listening in. And you actually

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Speaker 1: have a section about half of ARDSCA. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about cell phones and why they're so annoying? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, Well, on one level, when we got onto

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Speaker 1: a train and we're in public space, UM, certainly I understand, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, my part, my rules. If I got a table,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to spread my stuff all over the table.

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Speaker 1: I understand I've got a little bit of the table.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna, you know, shove my legs out right

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Speaker 1: in front of me, because I understand that person's got

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Speaker 1: their space. We all have these little instinctive moments of

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Speaker 1: respect that we pay to one another so that we

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Speaker 1: can all, you know, get along. And when someone stands

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Speaker 1: up and starts chatting away loudly on their phone and

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Speaker 1: knows that everyone else must be able to hear it,

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Speaker 1: they're sort of removing themselves from the group that they're saying,

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Speaker 1: you're a group. You you're all the group, but I'm special.

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Speaker 1: I'm having my phone call and they have their phone call.

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Speaker 1: And why it's so annoying for other people. If you have,

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Speaker 1: you know, two old ladies sitting, you know, in the

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Speaker 1: row behind you and they're just chatting away and laughing,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of fine because they're they're chatting and you

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Speaker 1: can hear the whole conversation. It might be annoying, but

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily rude. Why someone chatting on their phone

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Speaker 1: is impossible to ignore? Um and is is rude is

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Speaker 1: because you can only hear that half of the conversation

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Speaker 1: that you're talking about behalf a log um. And the

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Speaker 1: human brain, no matter what you're trying to do, it's

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Speaker 1: always hungry for a story. It's always trying to solve,

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Speaker 1: you know, problems, it's trying to work stuff out. So

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Speaker 1: even if you're trying your best to ignore this person

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Speaker 1: having their chat, your brain is trying to fill in

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Speaker 1: the blanks. And and there's also the kind of the

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Speaker 1: staccato nature of a conversation. You're trying to get into

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Speaker 1: your flow, your rhythm wherever you do. When you're driving

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Speaker 1: and someone cuts you up, they disturb your flow. If

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Speaker 1: you're on a train and you're reading a book and

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Speaker 1: you have to read the same sentence nineteen times because

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Speaker 1: of the person having the chat, your flow has been interrupted.

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Speaker 1: And we feel that on some level that is always

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Speaker 1: quite a rude thing. But the random nature of replies

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Speaker 1: on a one sided conversation, because you don't know how

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Speaker 1: long the other guy is gonna talk for. You know,

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Speaker 1: you might do a one word answer, you might you

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Speaker 1: might you talk for ten minutes and you'll just here

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Speaker 1: a man going hard the whole time. So because it's

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Speaker 1: completely unpredictable, it's another reason that we find it impossible

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Speaker 1: to ignore and hugely annoying. But the rudeness certainly comes

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Speaker 1: from removing yourself from the group and going no one

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Speaker 1: here matters. I'm talking to Nigel. He's had a hair transplant.

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Speaker 1: Stay right there, more with Danny Wallace right after this break.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part Time Genius. We're talking to Danny Wallace.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the most amazing stories in your

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Speaker 1: book is about a politician in Colombia who decided to

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Speaker 1: fight rudeness, and to fight rudeness with mimes of all things,

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Speaker 1: and I was hoping you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, this is a guy stumbled across named

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Speaker 1: Anthonys Marcus who is either the craziest politician in the

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Speaker 1: world or some kind of genius. And I think he's

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Speaker 1: some kind of genius because he takes problems and he's

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Speaker 1: sort of he comes up with what seem on paper

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Speaker 1: to be insane ideas, insane solutions, and yet they seem

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Speaker 1: to work. And this is a guy who had been

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Speaker 1: kind of in charge like the chancellor thing or directorally university.

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Speaker 1: At Bogata University, Um, and there was like there was

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Speaker 1: kind of some student unrest one day and there were

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hund of the students all shouting, and he

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Speaker 1: was on the stage and he was trying to calm

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Speaker 1: them down, and they would not be calm him. They

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Speaker 1: would not listen, they would not give him the time

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Speaker 1: of day, and no matter what he did on that microphone,

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't shut up. And so he very calmly walked

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Speaker 1: to the front of the stage, undid his belt, turned around,

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Speaker 1: pulled down his trousers, and showed the world his ass,

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Speaker 1: at which point every student was kind of silent and

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Speaker 1: slacked George. No one knew why he was doing this.

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Speaker 1: Had he gone mad, you know? Was he protesting their

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Speaker 1: rudeness or was he being rude himself? And it was

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Speaker 1: a massive scandal and every sort of newspaper was talking

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Speaker 1: about it. Everyone was disgusted at his behavior. How could

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Speaker 1: he act that way? It was so rude, Um, And

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Speaker 1: he ended up having to leave his job. But because

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Speaker 1: he had done this current crazy thing, he was now

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Speaker 1: in the public kind of consciousness. So when he then

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Speaker 1: ran for there at a time when Bogutar was seen

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Speaker 1: as pretty much the most um chaotic, let's stay city

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Speaker 1: in the world, and there was corruption left right and center.

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Speaker 1: They felt that this was a guy they could trust.

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Speaker 1: So he was, you know, put into power. But crucially,

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Speaker 1: because he didn't owe anyone any favors, he could get

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Speaker 1: rid of everyone that he felt was potentially corrupt and

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Speaker 1: instead bring in a bunch of his friends, all of

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Speaker 1: whom had crazy ideas like him. And they looked at

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Speaker 1: the city and they saw what was going on, and

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Speaker 1: they saw that people were driving in considerately, They were

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Speaker 1: mounting the sidewalks, they were jaywalking left right and center.

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Speaker 1: They were being incredibly loud when when they shouldn't have been,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, And he just thought, right, what do

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Speaker 1: we do here? And just as you say, he did

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Speaker 1: something a bit crazy, which was that he got rid

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Speaker 1: of the vast majority of the notoriously corrupt traffic police

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Speaker 1: and he replaced them with minds, so actual minds. So

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Speaker 1: people dressed in black, the traditional white gloves, their faces

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Speaker 1: painted white. And he just unleashed this army of minds

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Speaker 1: onto the streets and said, find rude behavior, find bad behavior,

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Speaker 1: and call it out. So if you were someone who

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Speaker 1: was saying jaywalking and there was traffic. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: putting people in danger and you're doing what you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be doing. You might look behind you and find five

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Speaker 1: or six mins who are copying you and mocking your walk,

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Speaker 1: completely in front of the whole world, and it would

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Speaker 1: make you think twice about doing that again. Or if

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Speaker 1: you'd part your car somewhere where you weren't allowed to

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Speaker 1: park your car, you might suddenly find loads and loads

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Speaker 1: of minds surrounding your car, just pointing at you and

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Speaker 1: shaking their heads. And what it did was it made

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Speaker 1: people accountable for their actions, but it also showed everybody

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Speaker 1: else that, look, there's people on your side. So these

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Speaker 1: rude people they're not being because you know, we're just

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Speaker 1: letting them anymore. They're breaking the rules, and we are

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Speaker 1: sort of shaming them, but in a playful but powerful way.

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Speaker 1: And the public started to join in, and he had

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Speaker 1: more and more schemes that didn't just involve minds. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned people being loud. You know, there might be playing

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Speaker 1: there I guess back then their boom boxes and their

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Speaker 1: disco music or whatever it was about. Then, you know,

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Speaker 1: loudly on the train, and suddenly a bunch of fellows

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Speaker 1: dressed up as benedicting monks would get on um, you

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Speaker 1: know and just put their fingers to their lips just

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Speaker 1: to sort of highlights you know, their their their vow

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Speaker 1: of silence and how you were impinging upon it. So

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Speaker 1: there's all these kind of it was almost like almost

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Speaker 1: like kind of weird hidden camera moments, except no one

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Speaker 1: was really filming it. It was just there to show

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Speaker 1: the public. Look, we understand there's a way to behave

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Speaker 1: and we're going to help you, and we're gonna puncture

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Speaker 1: the kind of the aggression underneath it that it normally

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Speaker 1: goes to and and we're going to show that that

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Speaker 1: you've got people on your side. And it worked to

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Speaker 1: an astounding degree. You know, even homicides went down, um,

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Speaker 1: just thanks to a series of kind of quite playful

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Speaker 1: things and and and crucially um people offered to pay

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Speaker 1: more tax just because the mayor said, listen to be

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Speaker 1: really lovely if you would offer to pay more tax.

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Speaker 1: So it just showed that people were hungry for a

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Speaker 1: non rude world. But it felt like that chance had

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Speaker 1: been lost at a time when Bogitar had gone crazy,

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Speaker 1: and it just took one crazy guy to turn this around.

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Speaker 1: That's really such an incredible story. So I do want

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Speaker 1: to get back to a little bit of how rudeness

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Speaker 1: affects us. And I know in one part you talk

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Speaker 1: about how, um, rudeness can sort of curb people's creativity,

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Speaker 1: But I was also curious how rudeness can actually be

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Speaker 1: dangerous in a medical context. When you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that. Yeah, of course, UM, well, when someone

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Speaker 1: has been unnecessarily rude to you, UM, it really does

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Speaker 1: affect your brain, affects the frontal loads, which is responi

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Speaker 1: was responsible for kind of working memory and whatever the

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Speaker 1: task at hand is um, And studies were done that

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Speaker 1: showed that, yes, absolutely, it doesn't make people less creative.

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Speaker 1: So people were kind of surprised by rudeness um, and

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Speaker 1: then set simple tasks. They didn't realize that the rudeness

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Speaker 1: was kind of part of it, so it would happen

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Speaker 1: on the way into the experiment. But the people who

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Speaker 1: had experienced rudeness found themselves far less able to, for example,

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Speaker 1: come up with very simple anagrams or creative uses for

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Speaker 1: a brick that was my favorite. Um. So they just

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Speaker 1: couldn't come up with as many ideas as other people could.

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Speaker 1: The people who hadn't experienced any rudeness whatsoever. And it's

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Speaker 1: been sort of shown time and time again just how

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Speaker 1: much this affects us. I mean, there were studies done,

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Speaker 1: I think in the seventies that showed that even just

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Speaker 1: a loud noise changes we are and how much empathy

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Speaker 1: we have. So if you had an old woman at

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Speaker 1: the top of some stairs and to have shopping bag

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Speaker 1: is broken and all her shopping is tumbling down the

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Speaker 1: stairs and oranges and tin cans, but our instinct is

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Speaker 1: to run to her and to help her. But the

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Speaker 1: science has shown that if someone nearby, and this is

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Speaker 1: the crazy bit, if someone nearby is doing some gardening

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Speaker 1: and has quite a lowed lawnmower, it affects us in

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Speaker 1: such a way that we are much less likely to

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Speaker 1: go and run to that woman's aid, because part of

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Speaker 1: our brain is dealing with what's going on over here.

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Speaker 1: So it's much the same when it comes to rudeness.

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Speaker 1: Part of your brain is coping with that. And where

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Speaker 1: it becomes very dangerous isn't when you're like a rioter

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Speaker 1: who hasn't been served the hot dog. It's much more

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Speaker 1: when you have a position of you know, real authority

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Speaker 1: or responsibility over other people's lives. So there were studies

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Speaker 1: done in Tel Aviv with a bunch of surgeons, three

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Speaker 1: groups of surgeons, and one of the groups in particular

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Speaker 1: was told that while they were doing their simulated surgery

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Speaker 1: on a on a on an infant um, they were

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Speaker 1: going to be observed by a medical professional from America.

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Speaker 1: And when that medical professional came over on Skype to

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Speaker 1: say hello to them, he was just very rude. He

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Speaker 1: was very dismissive. He said he had no real respect

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Speaker 1: for the medicinal community in the in Tel Aviv, and

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Speaker 1: that you know, he wishes them well. Nonetheless, and when

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Speaker 1: they went and did their surgery um, it was shown

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Speaker 1: afterwards by an independent group that that team, in particular,

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Speaker 1: those bunch of surgeons who had experienced rudeness, became less

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Speaker 1: effective at the surgery they were doing. They didn't communicate well,

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Speaker 1: they picked up the wrong instruments. They would become fixated

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Speaker 1: on the original diagnosis, so that if something changed that

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Speaker 1: was really obvious, they would kind of ignore it because

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Speaker 1: they couldn't deal with it at that time. They didn't

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Speaker 1: resascitate properly, and essentially, the infant in the simulation would

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Speaker 1: have died had it been an actual of surgery. So

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Speaker 1: that's when you start to see that, you know, rudeness

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Speaker 1: which cuts to the very core of who we are

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Speaker 1: and makes us feel disrespected and confuses us and bewilders

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Speaker 1: us in those situations, and that's when big accidents can happen,

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Speaker 1: medical errors can happen. It's been shown that truck drivers

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Speaker 1: with rude dispatches miss more stop science. Um so anyone,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you have an airline pilot, you know,

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Speaker 1: at least when they've had a drink, you know, you

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Speaker 1: can you can sort of see their glassy eyes or

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Speaker 1: see them sway around. But there's there are no clues

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Speaker 1: when it comes to rudeness and what someone may have

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Speaker 1: just experienced. And and that's when when I was writing

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Speaker 1: the book, I started to realize just how dark this

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Speaker 1: can kind of get. Because we've always found rudeness to

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Speaker 1: be quite amusing and we love, you know, rude people

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Speaker 1: in sitcoms, whether it's Basil Faulty or the Supernancy or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and we love changing stories, you know, about rudeness, but

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Speaker 1: we don't really appreciate that it is genuinely a silent killer.

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Speaker 1: If if someone's been rude to a doctor in the morning,

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Speaker 1: it can affect the next five patients. So suddenly you

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Speaker 1: start to see how it can affect all of us.

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Speaker 1: And when you've got the world's rudist man in the

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Speaker 1: in the world's most powerful position, um, then you start

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Speaker 1: to have problems. Yeah, it's a well, those are all

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Speaker 1: scary situations. Though I don't think you should minimize the

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Speaker 1: hot dog thing. I still can't get over that you

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Speaker 1: didn't get a hot dog for an hour in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but it will stay with you for quite some time

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Speaker 1: gractually of that day. You know. There there is a

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Speaker 1: great story in the beginning of the book about someone

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Speaker 1: who joins ISIS and is put off by the rudeness

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Speaker 1: of that movement. And now obviously ISIS isn't something that

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Speaker 1: we laugh about. But but honestly, that story was so funny.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: This was This was a fellow who who decided to

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Speaker 1: flee Britain Omar's saying, and he left his job as

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Speaker 1: a I think he was a security gardener's supermarket, and

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Speaker 1: he fled for the for the deserts where he could

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Speaker 1: train with with isis and and really I put the

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Speaker 1: story in to show that, you know, we all have

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Speaker 1: different standards, were all quite different people, um, and yet

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Speaker 1: there are some things that unite almost everyone. Because he

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Speaker 1: had gone he fled to the desert in order to

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Speaker 1: essentially help bring down the very sort of tenets of

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Speaker 1: Western civilization UM and do kind of unspeakable things and

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Speaker 1: train for atrocities. But when he got there, he just

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Speaker 1: found himself constantly annoyed because this this great brotherhood that

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Speaker 1: he'd expected of people that thought like him and wanted

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Speaker 1: to attack the West. Sometimes would just unplug his phone

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Speaker 1: and steal his phone charger for a while, which he

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Speaker 1: thought was one step too far even for Ices. Or

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Speaker 1: sometimes they'd sort of he'd take his shoes off to

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Speaker 1: have a prey and then he'd be like, wearing my

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Speaker 1: shoes and he'd look up and there'd be another this

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Speaker 1: member who just taking his shoes, and he was like,

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Speaker 1: this is this is not what I joined Ices for.

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00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: You know, we've got to standards here. And he would

429
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: make dinner for them sometimes and he'd just be like,

430
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: can you all just pipe down because all like grabbing

431
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: at the food, and he's like, we're gonna have a

432
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: system here, and he was just basically he was very

433
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: disappointed at how immature, um, and how bad he brought

434
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: up a lot of terrorists seemed to be these days. Um.

435
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 1: And it just made me think that, you know, even

436
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: a man in this situation who has turned his back

437
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: on all sorts of Western conventions and all sorts of

438
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: standards of treating each other, even he can find himself

439
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: annoyed at the kind of the minor injustices and sort

440
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: of everyday monsters of polite society. You got it. You

441
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: gotta do other lines somewhere, you know, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

442
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't last five minutes. And iis I'll tell you

443
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: you do talk a little bit about a rudeness vaccine

444
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: that they were testing on doctors, and what exactly would

445
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: that involved. Well, it was great because this was just

446
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: like a passing comment that one of the scientists that

447
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: I talked to said. And his name is a mere Errors,

448
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: and I think he's great. And there's a bunch of them.

449
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of these sort of like me, rudeness nerds,

450
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: kind of like sculpting about the shadows, sort of stemp

451
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: in their little feet and going, why can't everything be better? Um?

452
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: And Amir entered into sort of rudeness studies, if you like,

453
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: um by thinking it was nonsense. He he just thought,

454
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, rudeness doesn't have an effect on anybody. It's

455
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: just just a thing. It's just a thing that happens

456
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: in your day. And he started to look into it,

457
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: almost like just as a bet with one of his colleagues.

458
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: And he told me, he said, every time I look

459
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: into it, I find something else. And what I usually

460
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: find is shocking. Um. And we were talking about the

461
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: doctor's thing and the idea that you know, like I say,

462
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 1: someone being rude to a doctor doesn't just affect you know,

463
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: the next person the doctor sees, but five people, um,

464
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, in in a in a in a row

465
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: can be affected, according to the studies, by a moment

466
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: of rudeness. And I said to him, you know, it's

467
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: a silent killer. It's a sort of you know, we

468
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: we we need to be taking this a bit more seriously. Uh.

469
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: And and he just sort of threw it away, this

470
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: this idea that he said, you know, we're sort of

471
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: working in a vaccine and I was like, what were

472
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: you talking about? A vaccine, And it's kind of a

473
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: video game that doctors can play at the very start

474
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: of their day before anyone has even thought about being

475
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: rude to them. So it's almost like and the Inoculation

476
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: and they play this game and they're still working on it.

477
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: But however, it works and whatever it does helps to

478
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: sort of free up those frontal lobes that often, like

479
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: I say, get bogged down in the rudeness of things.

480
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: So I suppose it just protects them, and whatever mental

481
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: exercises it puts these doctors through just helps them too.

482
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: I suppose take a breath or perhaps take a step

483
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: back from the situation. Um. So I can't wait to

484
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: find out more about it. That they're going to be

485
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: starting more studies. But it does show that a rudeness

486
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: is being taken seriously and be steps are being made

487
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: to to help us all deal with it. Um. Because

488
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: you know when every time you get in a car,

489
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: you know you're a dangerous a situation escalating. Well, we've

490
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: got several more questions for you, Danny, but we'll be

491
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: right back with Part Time Genius after the break. Welcome

492
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: back to Part Time Genius. We're talking to Danny Wallace

493
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 1: the author of f you very much understanding the culture

494
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: of rudeness and what we can do about it. So

495
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about Internet urals because we

496
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: started a blog very early, uh at our former jobs

497
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: and and it was sort of this warm and welcoming

498
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: culture of people who read the posts and stuff, and

499
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: it slowly grew into more of an aggressive community and

500
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: more people who are more liberated to be trolley. And

501
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: so our explanation was always it really is the anonymity

502
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: of this that that people are just you know, at

503
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: home behind their screens. But you have a bit of

504
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: a tweaked reason for it. Could you explain that? Yeah,

505
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: I think we've always traditionally said, you know, it's it's

506
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: the anonymity of the Internet that is that is the problem.

507
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: And certainly, um it is quite free. UM it allows um,

508
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: you know, the anonymity, and in a sense it is

509
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing because in the early days it meant

510
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: that people who, for example, UM, felt uncomfortable coming out

511
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: could could find other people like them but didn't feel

512
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: that they were risking anything at that at that point,

513
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: and they could they could find other people like them

514
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: who were at the same point in time and encourage

515
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: at each other, and it was seen as quite you know,

516
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 1: it was a great thing. And then of course the

517
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: rise of of the of the trolls, it just made

518
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: us immediately think, well, actually, anonymity is a terrible thing.

519
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: What studies have shown is really it's a lack of

520
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: eye contact that is the huge problem. Um. I was

521
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: talking earlier about how difficult it is to have, you know,

522
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: the looking glass held up to you if you're a

523
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: rude person, because you you see yourself through the eyes

524
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: of others. That's why it's also very difficult for people

525
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: to be certainly as rude to each other faces, because

526
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: you're there's something called the looking glass self, which is

527
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: we are always looking into the eyes of others for

528
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: how we are coming across. Does this person like me?

529
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: Have I offended them? How am I doing you know

530
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: in life in their eyes? Um And a lack of

531
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: eye contact with with the internet means that people can

532
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: be free to be as rude as they want. Again,

533
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: tests were done in hyper I think in Israel, where

534
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: they had an office full of people and some of

535
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: them were made to just sit opposite the person they

536
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: had to kind of work with, and some had to

537
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: use like instant messenger or something to to to work

538
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: together with people. And they found far and away that

539
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: the people who would be much more aggressive with each

540
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: other were the ones who simply couldn't see each other.

541
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's there is a certain freedom

542
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: in in the anonymity, but I would say there's much

543
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: more freedom and in knowing that person just can't see you.

544
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: I know that you referred to a certain politician and

545
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: some celebrity judges and Basil Faulty. And why do you

546
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: think it is that we are so attracted to rudeness. Well,

547
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: I think we're at a point where rudeness it's sort

548
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: of helping people achieve strange ambitions. Rudeness more than ever

549
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: is everywhere, and it's getting worse, and it tumbles from

550
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: our phones. And every time we switch on the TV, um,

551
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,239
Speaker 1: two people who are pretending to be journalists having a fight, um, uh,

552
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: you know about whatever has just happened on cable news,

553
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: and then they bring in another person, uh, and and

554
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: it just feels angrier and narrower and coarser, And everyone's

555
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: got to have an opinion on everything all the time,

556
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: even if they know nothing about the thing they're trying

557
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: to say, they've got the opinion on, and the opinion

558
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: has to be put in in a very short and

559
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: forthright way to cut through the noise of everyone else's

560
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: opinions and must then be broadcast to everybody else because

561
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: we're all so important. Um, the people on reality TV shows,

562
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: it's just taught us that meanness should be rewarded because

563
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: they're the people who make the edit. Um, the highest

564
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: paid talent judges are always the mean ones. Um. So

565
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: everywhere we turn, we're being kind of tall that that

566
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: to be rude, to be to lack empathy in a

567
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: in a sense, um, it is a good thing. You know,

568
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: journalists find they get more clicks if if if they

569
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: if they write the horrible thing in a horrible way. Um.

570
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: So so it I sort of felt this kind of

571
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: this ground swell, and it came at a time where

572
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, like Trump for example, UM yeah, a lot

573
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: of what he ran on was this this kind of

574
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: mavericks sort of. I tell it like it is. I'm

575
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: only being honest. I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking.

576
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: And and those are all things that came from reality

577
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: TV as well. You know, all these people are going,

578
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: I just tell it like it is. I'm a truth teller.

579
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's refreshing. You can't argue with it. And really,

580
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: when these people say they're being honest, they're not being

581
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: honest at all. They're just putting forward an opinion, but

582
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: saying it's just honest. It's like it's get out clause,

583
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: because we're suddenly not allowed to argue with you if

584
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: you're being honest, and in fact, we've got to all

585
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: stand around and applaud you for being so brave as

586
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: to be honest. And so, for whatever reason, Reality TV

587
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: Online personas the rise of powerful rude people. Um, we're

588
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: kind of being taught again and again that rudeness works

589
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: and politeness is weak. I think that's the thing now

590
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: thinking about it, I think that's what I'm getting at,

591
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: is that we see manners as weakness, and we see

592
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: empathy as weakness, and we see rudeness of strength. Well, actually,

593
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: along those lines, you talk about the possibility of empathy

594
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: training in schools and how it could help teenagers at

595
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: that stage in their lives. I mean, what would that

596
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: look like? Do you think, well, yeah, it's a strange one.

597
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, part of me kind of books

598
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: at phrases like that kind of empathy training because it

599
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: just sounds so wishy washy and sort of a bit nonsensical.

600
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: It's like, how can you train for empathy? Um And

601
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: Yet people have sort of shown in in in studies

602
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: that it sort of can be taught, and it can

603
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: be exercised like a muscle, you know, it can be

604
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: grown in people. And I suppose it's just highlighting um.

605
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: You know here basically it boils down to this rudeness

606
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: is just kind of ignoring how another person feels and

607
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: just doing what you feel, no matter who gets hurt.

608
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: And politeness tends to be a system I've sort of

609
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: shared empathy. You know, I think etiquette is so outdated,

610
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: but politeness is really the main thing. And that just means,

611
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, you're slightly happier when someone says please you,

612
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: You feel seen when someone says thank you. If you

613
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: hold a door open just for a couple of seconds

614
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: for someone who's you know, struggling with some bags, you

615
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: both feel better for it. Um and And these are

616
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: things that we learn instinctively and we have used for millennia,

617
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: and it's a system that works. Um And you know,

618
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: I think that that turning our back on that empathy

619
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: is is a bad thing. I'm not sure I would,

620
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, I we would need empathy training in schools.

621
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: But but for the kids. But perhaps m I don't know,

622
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: perhaps perhaps just highlighting how people are seen through the

623
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: eyes of others as a good thing, which essentially is

624
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: what the guy in Columbia was doing. You know, he

625
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: was holding a looking glass up to those people like

626
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: almost sort of you know it sort of isn't the

627
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: looking glass of mime, isn't it? Because the mind was

628
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: mimicking them and showing them what they were doing, So

629
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: it was kind of a mobile mirror. And when you

630
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: see your own actions through the eyes of others and

631
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: how you're coming across, that's when you tend to change

632
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: your behavior. But it's such a strange but but interesting idea.

633
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: And honestly, even the idea that a mime or god forbid,

634
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: multiple mimes might show up if I do something rude,

635
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: would probably influence my behavior anyway. Yeah, well, we all

636
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: know what we're getting you for your birthdays. Well, Danny,

637
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: this has been a ton of fun, not it all.

638
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm so happy about how polite we've all been to

639
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: one another today. You've you've been, You've been absolutely wonderful.

640
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: We should be very proud. Thank you very much, and

641
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: I hope all of our listeners will check out the book.

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Speaker 1: It's f you very much understanding the culture of rudeness

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Speaker 1: and what we can do about it. But Danny, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for being on the program. Thanks thanks again

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Speaker 1: for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of how

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Speaker 1: stuff works and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people

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Speaker 1: who do the important things we couldn't even begin to understand.

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00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the

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Speaker 1: theme song and does the MIXI mixy sound thing. Jerry

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Speaker 1: Rowland does the exact producer thing. Gave Bluesier is our

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Speaker 1: lead researcher, with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson,

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Speaker 1: Nolan Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets

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Speaker 1: the show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you

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Speaker 1: like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if

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00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: you really really like what you've heard, maybe you could

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00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: leave a good review for us. Did you did you

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Speaker 1: forget Jason who