WEBVTT - Scott Hechinger and Robert Greenwald: Battling the Status Quo 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.400 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:10.200 Thing from My Heart Radio. My guests today are two 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:16.480 people using media to inspire, inform, and transform civic engagement 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:21.280 in America. Robert Greenwald is the founder of Brave New Films, 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.040 a nonprofit whose goal is to educate and mobilize the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.680 public on social issues like the prison system and voter suppression. 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.400 Greenwald was a director of television and film, with projects 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.680 ranging from the ambitious but poorly received musical Xanadu to 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:43.519 the critically acclaimed Burning Bed. The filmmaker then pivoted turning 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.680 his talents into real political action. But first, I'm talking 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:51.559 to civil rights attorney Scott Heckinger. He's the founder and 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.160 executive director of Zealous, an organization harnessing the power of 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:02.480 storytelling for social justice. Scott Heckinger believes that inaccurate narratives 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:07.319 on crime and policing help shape perception and policy, and 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.320 he's working to change that. Zealous works with public defenders 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.840 and advocates on campaigns that aim to change a broken 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.760 criminal justice system and push for true public health and safety. 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.520 Before Zealous, Heckinger was a public defender where he saw 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.920 firsthand the many flaws in our system of mass criminalization. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.640 He uses this background to inform media campaigns and get 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.640 the word out in mainstream outlets like The New York Times, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:40.280 Washington Post, and The Atlantic. A recent article by Heckinger 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.800 in the Nation critiqued the coverage of crime in a 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.800 post pandemic world, citing both NPR and The New York 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:53.640 Times as culprits of sensationalist journalism. With his extensive background 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.280 within the criminal justice system, I asked Scott Heckener if 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.880 support for defund the police, bail reef form, and public 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:06.080 defenders is largely drawn over racial lines. I mean, one 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.760 of the things that I think is perhaps most misunderstood 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:15.000 is that not just black leaders, but black communities are 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.079 right now or at a place where they don't want police, 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:23.320 and they are, you know, championing decarceration and eager to 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.840 support less policing, less prosecutions, less prisons as a way 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.960 to get to public health and safety. So I think we, 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.520 as kind of folks in the movement assume that if 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.920 you're black, even living in over criminalized and over police communities, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.840 you're just you're gonna be supportive of greater funding for example, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.959 for public defense. Um, you're going to be supportive of 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.000 these kind of policies that I think are important to 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.920 get us to a better place. But it's just not 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.880 the case. Why Why, Well, I think black community members 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.720 are getting messages from their church. They're getting messages also 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.840 from the same places where white liberal progressives are getting 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.360 their formation. That's New York Times, that's CNN, that's New 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.120 York Post, that's you know, media, which is painting a 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.600 picture of public safety and justice and crime and punishment 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:13.400 as good and evil. And they're hearing sensational cases about violence, 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.320 and they're feeling deeply fearful. And also they too are 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.640 a product of a popular culture in the United States 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:28.080 that paints deeply misconceived, inaccurate picture of justice, which is 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:33.680 that police prevent and solve crime, that prisons keep us safer, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.000 that there are good people and evil people, that everyone 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.880 gets their day in court, that people have trials and 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.120 juries that render a verdict. So you're saying that an 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.080 interesting number of people of color they are viewing things 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.120 the same way white people do. Yes, So there's a 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.200 system that's there, and they support that system and view 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.000 that system in the same way. Yes. And it's kind 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.800 of compounded by the fact that a lot of folks 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.200 in black and brown communities that are over policed, overcome lies, 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.720 are literally facing violence. I mean, violence is real. They're 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.480 hearing gunshots, they feel less safe, they feel less safe, 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.160 and because of the culture in which they've grown up, 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.160 like white folks, and the culture and the media that 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.520 they read, there's kind of a universal lack of imagination 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.160 for what an alternative could look like. And that, mixed 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.680 with fear, makes it so that we continue to want 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.760 to invest even despite all the evidence, the countrary that's 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.600 not working, that's not working in police, more police, more prosecutions, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.400 more prisons, even though we spend more on this stuff 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.320 than any other society in the history of the world. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.279 And my god, are we not the healthiest and safest. 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.800 What would you say in the modern world in your lifetime? 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.000 What have you noticed? Does it really go back in 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.920 my mind as it go back to Juliani, broken windows, Bratton, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:56.120 that whole thing here in New York or even across 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.080 the country. When did it begin where we needed to 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:05.760 paramilitarized the police departments? Oh boy, My initial gut is 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.640 it goes back to slavery. And I don't say that 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.680 like lightly or facetiously. Um, modern day policing was born 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:18.080 out of slave patrols. Riker's Island, just as an example, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.520 is named after Richard Riker, who was a famous white 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.080 slave catcher. Um, you're kidding me. No, oh my god, 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.240 I didn't know that. Now he was the comptroller and 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.160 he was a famous like northern slave catcher who would 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.160 like catch slaves and seldom down back down south for 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.280 for bounty. Um. Yeah, that's the place where now thousands 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.599 of predominantly black and brown people are caged pre trial, 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.920 presumed innocent only because they cannot afford to buy their freedom. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:51.279 This is it's baked like racism, harshness, all that stuff 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.720 is baked into American society in New York is no 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.560 different policing though in prisons, so it was always there. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.120 I do think though, that over the last half century 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:07.440 we've seen this combination of politics, media, and and fear 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.120 kind of jumble together to create this formula in favor 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.359 of greater harshness. It's driven by power. It is driven 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.160 by prison interests, is driven by prosecutors, is driven by 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.000 police and they're talking points. It's enabled by popular culture, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.159 all too willing to just repeat these popular narratives, and 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.839 a media that in the best cases just kind of 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.839 falling on bad habits and practices and relationships that they've 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.680 built with police and prosecutors as easy sources and kind 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.720 of being lazy in worst case, really actively affirmatively trying 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.640 to help this narrative, but it's put out there and 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.080 people then they see and they feel like our current 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.800 system is inevitable, the mass incarceration is inevitable, that imprisoning 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.440 two point three million people is inevitable, and it isn't 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:58.880 and it shouldn't be. And we're at this point where 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.880 we need to topple this imbalance of power and control 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.320 over criminal policy and media because that control over it 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:12.520 and that narrative and that reinforced message is influencing people's 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.720 basic intuitions. How does zealous try to change this narrative? 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.320 In a lot of ways, so we support public defenders, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:25.240 local organizers, people a direct experience locally to harness a 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.120 range of advocacy skills that public defenders didn't learn in 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.720 law school and organizers didn't either. So around just social 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.400 media advocacy, traditional media, new media advocacy, but also kind 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.320 of more fundamental stuff like just how to talk about 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.440 systemic issues in a way that is not legal ease 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.120 um that actually can reach more people, how to talk 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.360 about issues in ways with language and words that don't 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.800 um further entrenched the status quo. One of the things 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:58.320 about public defenders in public defense, so like Brooklyn Defender 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.400 Services where I practice for close to a decade still, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.840 people who have represented were who were convicted. Those convictions 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.640 came from guilty please, And the reason for that was 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.720 just the range of laws and practices that intersected to 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.080 kind of course silence essentially like against the truth. And 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.840 and our advocacy tools in court were so limited, right, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.480 We were limited to an audience of a judge and 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.239 a prosecutor who were already predisposed to kind of status 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.280 quo cruelty. We were limited terms of the media that 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.400 we were able to use. It was oral advocacy or 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.280 written advocacy were limited terms and messenger was us doing 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.839 the talking and language. And so what might it look 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.080 like to do advocacy to leverage your perspective and expertise 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:44.319 in partnership with communities to tell more compelling stories and 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.880 more compelling ways to shift the narrative long term about 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.040 crime and punishment. Well, wait, when you talk about the 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.240 media's role in that narrative. The New York Times they 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.160 need clicks and now they have a pretty good subscription base, 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.080 they're making money, and they were poor crime in what 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.520 I would consider a more popular way. When you wrote 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.160 the article about the Times, what was the lead up 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.880 to that? What was happening? What were you noticing? I 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.160 was noticing more of the same. The FBI came out 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.920 with data about most unusual year in all ways, leading 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.839 with a once in a hundred year global pandemic, and 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:28.160 the headline was homicide spike, violent sores around the country. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.800 And so most people don't read beyond the headlines. And 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:32.880 it wasn't just New York Times doing this, was MPR, 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.240 it was watching the Post. It was New York Post. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.760 And why headline cell right, You know, you want to 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.920 get the clicks. It's a cessational. But I'd also don't 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.240 think it's that interesting because the reality is the more 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.440 interesting stuff actually is if you dig below and what 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:50.000 was actually happening. But the data showed was that homicides 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:55.280 were increasing everywhere universally around the country. Number one in 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.280 places that had bail reform, places that which were very 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.720 few and most places that didn't. And a in blue states, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.480 places that had police protests against police violence, in places 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.720 that didn't, rural areas, cities blew what it read, etcetera. 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.679 The lead should have been this undermines the data that 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:15.000 just came out undermines years worth of effort by police 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.720 and prosecutors and prison interests across the country to convince 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.240 us that any minor modest changes in a direction away 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.640 from them actually was causing crime because it was universal 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.480 in places that had some changes in places that didn't. Instead, 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.920 we hear homicides up. We also don't hear about the 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.040 fact that in historical context they're still at historic lows. 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.120 We also don't hear about the fact that across all 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.640 other major types of crime, those numbers were universally down. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.600 But instead we get this kind of sensational headline and 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.200 this kind of mealy mouthed like kind of two sides 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.319 speculation about the potential causes of the increase in homicides, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.239 and they allow, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.160 police and sometimes anonymous police sources to say, well, it 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.760 could be this It could be bail reform. It could 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.760 it might be low police morale because of protests against 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.800 them killing people. Policy debate inside of a new straight 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.679 news story, yes, yeah, but but when there's when you know, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.959 a there's not really debate. I mean, I get the 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.520 fact that people want to know answers they and this 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.720 is a key piece, like people do want to know, 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.760 and I get that instinct. Why is crime up? The 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:32.440 thing that's unbelievable. You have police out there and then media, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.920 very smart journalists from the New York Times and other places, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.680 taking their word for it and allowing them to like 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.880 speculate about the causes of crime going up, and yet 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.240 no one kind of addresses this key point of Okay, 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.640 wait a second, we're paying you in New York City 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.559 eleven billion dollars a year, the most of any police 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.520 force in the country, more than most I would say, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:59.720 countries armies. And there's still crime at all, let alone 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.600 rising violence. And you're deflecting to something that just started 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.120 two years ago that actually had been wildly successful, which 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.200 I can talk about bail reform. It's this incredible slight 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:20.199 at hand. Scott Heckinger, if you like conversations with dedicated advocates. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.600 Check out my interview with Ingrid new Kirk from People 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.280 for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We went to the 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.200 Department of Justice, to the Attorney General's office, and we 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:37.360 had very carefully, painstakingly documented how Ringling had allowed this 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.760 lion to burn to death basically in the Mahave desert. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.880 So we went to the d o J and we said, look, 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.440 Ringland gets away with this all the time. So that 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.560 resulted in the biggest fine in US history against a circus. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.959 Here more of my conversation with Ingrid new Kirk at 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.000 Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Scott Heckinger 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.280 breaks down the repercussions of electing former police officer Eric 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:20.440 Adams as mayor of New York City. I'm Alec Baldwin, 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.160 and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In New York 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:29.600 State attempted bail reform, a legislative effort that lasted just 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.760 weeks before the law was changed. I wanted Scott Heckenscher 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.680 to help explain bail reform and the criticisms that led 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.520 to its diminishment. Pretend that you don't know anything about 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.559 bail reform and you're a legislator, just put yourself there 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:46.720 and I'm coming to you to talk to you about 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.560 a policy. I'm proposing a policy, and I'm telling you 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.880 that I can guarantee the following result that in the 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.600 next eighteen months and three thousand people who otherwise would 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.800 have faced jail will be free, will be back with 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.480 their families, will be in their jobs, will be able 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.199 to wake up in their own bed, will be able 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.120 to fight their case, have a shot justice, shot at justice. Okay, 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.319 so go start there. On top of that, we'll save 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.800 taxpayers over six fifty million dollars. On top of that, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.800 I can guarantee that of the people who are released 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.960 who otherwise would have faced bail reform will not be 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.920 rearrested for any crime of violence, and even less for 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.280 a crime involving any kind of use of a gun. 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.320 My gut is you'd look at me like you're overpromising 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.240 and you're being ridiculous, and no where you're out of 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.600 your mind. That's what it is. That's what bail reform is. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:44.640 Bail reform in New York is this enormously successful change 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:50.360 for justice, for fiscal responsibility, for fairness, against racism that 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.320 keeps folks productive, and yet people think it's a disaster. 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.520 There's no tie to violent crime, there's no tied any 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.160 and stuff. And here's the the thing that's amazing about 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.440 is our leader and our leaders. Governor hokel admitted it 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.000 was admitted it was success. The same week she proposed 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.440 rollbacks that would put forty five more people on the 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.880 path to jail. She wrote it up ed that laid 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.040 out exactly what I said. It's been enormous success end 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.520 because essentially of politics, because of the narrative that's out there. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.280 Bail folks need to understand, first of all, it ain't 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.320 it's not a punishment, it's incentive. It's an idea. You 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.920 pay money to court, you're supposed to then be out. 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.080 It's incentive to come back to court no matter what happens. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.920 At the end of the day, you pay the money back. 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.920 What we know is that people come back to court 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.280 overwhelmingly without bail. We know that's true, so we know 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.400 it's unnecessary. In reality, though bail is a punishment, most 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.520 people who have bail set can't afford to pay it 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.760 and they're locked up. And what does jail do in 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.800 addition to separating you from all the things bills, you know, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.160 bills piling up people in need of caretaking. What does 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.960 it do. It actually increases the likelihood that you are 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.840 going to get rear sit upon release. It's actually, there's 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:06.640 this fancy term criminogenetic. It's just basically here, here's the reality. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.120 The primary characteristics of jail in prison are the exact 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.520 same as the prime drivers of violence itself, isolation, shame, 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.840 economic deprivation, and violence. And so we wind up throwing 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.240 a solution at a thing that actually winds up making 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.480 the thing even worse. I was someone who I was 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.600 so supportive of the police, even though I have my 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.520 own criticisms of the police. I view the police force 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:35.560 as a group of men and women who buy in 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.560 large are doing the job for the right reason, and 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.840 that like a lot of organizations political parties in the 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.400 country today, the leadership of the police department is the issue. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.360 Defund the police is just miserable. You want police, you 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.800 need police, all those cliches, you hate the cops until 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.120 you need one or whatever. So I think the defund 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.720 the police was a miserable narrative. It was a miserable slogan. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.800 You know, I'll say, I actually think it's too soon 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:06.000 to say that that was a bad that was a disaster. Frankly, 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.240 like it was incredible that for any period time it 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.040 could have been a day, but that for a period 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.920 of time, legislators and legislatures around the country, we're actually 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.520 talking about divestment and reinvestment in different things outside of 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.760 the police. It's an important conversation to have, and I 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.760 think the most interesting models actually are in places like Eugene, Oregon, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.840 where they have this program called Cahoots where social workers 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.440 are actually sent without armed police. It isn't actually pairing 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.240 the two because here's the reality. When you have someone 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.600 a mental health crisis, perhaps and I would say even 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.480 offered someone who has dealt with the police before because 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.600 of their mental health issues, when a police officer shows up, 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.440 whether they are the most well meaning, well trained, like 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.879 the perfect police officer, the one who is not going 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.280 to use violence, a police officer is by their nature 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:06.920 they're triggering. They represent a series of really harmful consequences 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.640 and solutions which include arrest, handcuffing, all the things that 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.920 you described. It includes, in the best case scenario, potentially 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:20.119 an alternative to incarceration with forced mental health treatment or 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.240 with the threat of prison. And so there's a lot 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.159 of studies that look at the fact that a police 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.040 officers showing up at all, even with a social worker 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.800 is problematic, and Eugene Oregon, the Cohoots program shows that 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.520 social workers showing up who are unarmed is enormous successful 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.560 and in very rare cases do they ever have to 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.439 call for backup And it doesn't lead to more violence, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.639 it actually decreases it. So when a police officer became 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.720 the mayor of New York, I thought, this isn't the 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.399 best idea. I don't think that the person who's a 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.679 police officer should be the mayor. What do you think 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:58.000 about that it's becoming mayor? Oh God, is it? I'll 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.480 tell you it felt like a bit like Trump becoming president, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.280 where I knew it was going to be bad, like 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:08.240 really bad, and it's still far exceeded my expectations in badness. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:13.000 I mean, days before Eric Adams officially became mayor, he 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.760 announced that the first thing he was going to do 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.240 that was the number one priority for him was bringing 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.520 back even though it was still there, but like bringing 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.280 back and reinforcing solitary confinement on Breaker's Island. The second 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.280 thing he did, actually the first thing he did as 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.119 as mayor was then reject the opinions of over a 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.439 majority of the city council who challenged the fact that 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.520 he was going to be bringing back solitary and said, 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.080 come back to me if and once you've become had 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.879 the experience of being a police officer. So he cast 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.040 aside the opinions of the majority of city council because 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.200 they they had not previously served as police. He has 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.680 pushed for the appointment of two different people for high 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:59.440 level positions in his administration who have deep, long backgrounds 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:05.000 with ho A phobia. He has reinstituted a deeply violent 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.520 and racist arm of the police force, which one it's 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.440 supposedly set up to try to get guns off the street, 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.200 but what they wind up doing is terrorized black and 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.280 brown neighborhoods, making it feel like you're literally imprisoned in 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.040 your own neighborhood. And they have a long history of violence, 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:26.280 but he reinstituted that. It's carcerealism, it's hyper policing, it's 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.440 Juliani is Um all over again. And what he's done 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.399 is he's jeopardized his because you have your article you 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.560 say the police state is failing officers too. That was 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.000 in the nation, the police state is failing officers too. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:45.520 I cannot more wholeheartedly endorsed that idea. And I'm not 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.520 saying that a police officer can't be a good mayor. 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.040 It's it's it's essential that we get that on the air. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.200 I'm not saying that a police officer can't be a 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.280 good mayor. But sure enough, he comes in there and 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.840 he does what all modern day politicians do, which is 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.879 he just shoves a whole bunch of money towards his friends. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.520 He gives the police department a huge budgetary increase and 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.840 seven hundreds You reported seven hundred and fifty million dollars 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.879 in overtime this year, which I think you're reported was 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.359 a seventy three percent increase in what was budgeted for 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.919 this year, seven fifty million to overtime. The mayor of 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.000 this city is somebody who needed to come in and 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.439 figure out how we're going to spend less money. The 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.640 city is in a financial crisis. The city has been 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.800 in a financial crisis. Its expenses are higher and its 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.919 income is lower than has been since the seventies. The 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.480 budgets around eleven billion dollars a year. In the wake 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.600 of that, the horrible shooting in the subway station where 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:44.560 where there was no police to be found, to where 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:46.639 they were, they were calling nine. It was just a 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:51.400 completely disaster. We already have police in the subways at 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.640 a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars every year 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:55.920 to fail to prevent something like that. And he then 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.680 was like, we need five hundred more police in the 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.520 subway or a thousand, But if policing or any other 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:07.520 administrative agency, it would have been defunded decades ago. It's 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.080 the reality. What I do know is modern day policing 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.199 the way that we see it right now, it's not 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.359 helping anyone Like numbers show that. I'll just say my 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.560 position is this, I don't hate police. I hate that 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:25.000 we continue to actually invest in a failed policy solution 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:30.080 proven over half a century. We keep thinking that it's 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.240 not just investing more, but even the conversation around like 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:37.120 training them to somehow like do better. We've tried that out. 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.520 We we tried to get you know, police to have 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.359 biased training, to like shoot less people and to be 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.320 more careful. And the reality is modern day policing in America, 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:54.280 by its nature and by its history is deeply racist, oppressive, 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.439 and violent, and we know that it fails to prevent 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:01.640 crime based upon their own data. And they're sensationally so 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.879 stupendously all the words bad at solving violent crime as well. 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:12.360 What's an example of a successful campaign? So early on 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.919 in COVID, we got a call from a public defender 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.480 in Prince George's County, Maryland. There was one court watcher, 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:24.280 so formally incarcerated woman who was in court filing prosecutorial 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:29.000 accountability letters to the state's attorney. And this incredible civil 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.679 rights law firm, Civil Rights Corps, filed a powerful litigation 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.800 based on sixty four sworn declarations from people inside the 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:40.280 Prince George's County jail being held pre trial, describing, at 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.760 risk of retaliation, the horrible conditions that they were facing, 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.479 from no ppe to force, being forced to clean up 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.440 each other's bodily fluids, awful, pay, have to pay four 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:53.520 dollars for medical care, and the judge dismissed those sixty 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:58.240 four sworn declarations as quote unhelpful. And we're like, traditional 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:02.520 advocacy ain't working. What can we do? We brought folks together, 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:05.440 these these kind of different groups of local organizers formally 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.320 incarceraty people and the folks who were currently in alongside 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.440 defenders and came up with this concept. Actually, now i'm 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.280 talking about it, you were involved in it, Alec. It 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.520 was exceptionally helpful. We worked with Broadway Advocacy Coalition. We 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:21.480 couldn't get cell phone footage of inside Prince George's County jail, 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.600 but we had their words. So we we in partnership 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.239 with the folks on the inside, and all of these 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:30.159