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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guests today are two

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Speaker 1: people using media to inspire, inform, and transform civic engagement

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Speaker 1: in America. Robert Greenwald is the founder of Brave New Films,

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Speaker 1: a nonprofit whose goal is to educate and mobilize the

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Speaker 1: public on social issues like the prison system and voter suppression.

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Speaker 1: Greenwald was a director of television and film, with projects

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Speaker 1: ranging from the ambitious but poorly received musical Xanadu to

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Speaker 1: the critically acclaimed Burning Bed. The filmmaker then pivoted turning

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Speaker 1: his talents into real political action. But first, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to civil rights attorney Scott Heckinger. He's the founder and

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Speaker 1: executive director of Zealous, an organization harnessing the power of

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Speaker 1: storytelling for social justice. Scott Heckinger believes that inaccurate narratives

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Speaker 1: on crime and policing help shape perception and policy, and

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Speaker 1: he's working to change that. Zealous works with public defenders

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Speaker 1: and advocates on campaigns that aim to change a broken

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system and push for true public health and safety.

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Speaker 1: Before Zealous, Heckinger was a public defender where he saw

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Speaker 1: firsthand the many flaws in our system of mass criminalization.

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Speaker 1: He uses this background to inform media campaigns and get

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Speaker 1: the word out in mainstream outlets like The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, and The Atlantic. A recent article by Heckinger

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Speaker 1: in the Nation critiqued the coverage of crime in a

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Speaker 1: post pandemic world, citing both NPR and The New York

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Speaker 1: Times as culprits of sensationalist journalism. With his extensive background

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Speaker 1: within the criminal justice system, I asked Scott Heckener if

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Speaker 1: support for defund the police, bail reef form, and public

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Speaker 1: defenders is largely drawn over racial lines. I mean, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I think is perhaps most misunderstood

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Speaker 1: is that not just black leaders, but black communities are

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Speaker 1: right now or at a place where they don't want police,

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Speaker 1: and they are, you know, championing decarceration and eager to

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Speaker 1: support less policing, less prosecutions, less prisons as a way

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Speaker 1: to get to public health and safety. So I think we,

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Speaker 1: as kind of folks in the movement assume that if

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Speaker 1: you're black, even living in over criminalized and over police communities,

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Speaker 1: you're just you're gonna be supportive of greater funding for example,

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Speaker 1: for public defense. Um, you're going to be supportive of

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Speaker 1: these kind of policies that I think are important to

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Speaker 1: get us to a better place. But it's just not

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Speaker 1: the case. Why Why, Well, I think black community members

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Speaker 1: are getting messages from their church. They're getting messages also

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Speaker 1: from the same places where white liberal progressives are getting

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Speaker 1: their formation. That's New York Times, that's CNN, that's New

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Speaker 1: York Post, that's you know, media, which is painting a

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Speaker 1: picture of public safety and justice and crime and punishment

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Speaker 1: as good and evil. And they're hearing sensational cases about violence,

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Speaker 1: and they're feeling deeply fearful. And also they too are

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Speaker 1: a product of a popular culture in the United States

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Speaker 1: that paints deeply misconceived, inaccurate picture of justice, which is

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Speaker 1: that police prevent and solve crime, that prisons keep us safer,

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Speaker 1: that there are good people and evil people, that everyone

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Speaker 1: gets their day in court, that people have trials and

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Speaker 1: juries that render a verdict. So you're saying that an

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Speaker 1: interesting number of people of color they are viewing things

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Speaker 1: the same way white people do. Yes, So there's a

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Speaker 1: system that's there, and they support that system and view

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Speaker 1: that system in the same way. Yes. And it's kind

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Speaker 1: of compounded by the fact that a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: in black and brown communities that are over policed, overcome lies,

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Speaker 1: are literally facing violence. I mean, violence is real. They're

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Speaker 1: hearing gunshots, they feel less safe, they feel less safe,

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Speaker 1: and because of the culture in which they've grown up,

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Speaker 1: like white folks, and the culture and the media that

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Speaker 1: they read, there's kind of a universal lack of imagination

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Speaker 1: for what an alternative could look like. And that, mixed

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Speaker 1: with fear, makes it so that we continue to want

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Speaker 1: to invest even despite all the evidence, the countrary that's

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Speaker 1: not working, that's not working in police, more police, more prosecutions,

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Speaker 1: more prisons, even though we spend more on this stuff

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Speaker 1: than any other society in the history of the world.

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Speaker 1: And my god, are we not the healthiest and safest.

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Speaker 1: What would you say in the modern world in your lifetime?

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Speaker 1: What have you noticed? Does it really go back in

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Speaker 1: my mind as it go back to Juliani, broken windows, Bratton,

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Speaker 1: that whole thing here in New York or even across

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Speaker 1: the country. When did it begin where we needed to

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Speaker 1: paramilitarized the police departments? Oh boy, My initial gut is

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Speaker 1: it goes back to slavery. And I don't say that

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Speaker 1: like lightly or facetiously. Um, modern day policing was born

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Speaker 1: out of slave patrols. Riker's Island, just as an example,

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Speaker 1: is named after Richard Riker, who was a famous white

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Speaker 1: slave catcher. Um, you're kidding me. No, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Now he was the comptroller and

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Speaker 1: he was a famous like northern slave catcher who would

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Speaker 1: like catch slaves and seldom down back down south for

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Speaker 1: for bounty. Um. Yeah, that's the place where now thousands

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Speaker 1: of predominantly black and brown people are caged pre trial,

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Speaker 1: presumed innocent only because they cannot afford to buy their freedom.

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Speaker 1: This is it's baked like racism, harshness, all that stuff

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Speaker 1: is baked into American society in New York is no

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Speaker 1: different policing though in prisons, so it was always there.

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Speaker 1: I do think though, that over the last half century

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Speaker 1: we've seen this combination of politics, media, and and fear

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Speaker 1: kind of jumble together to create this formula in favor

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Speaker 1: of greater harshness. It's driven by power. It is driven

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Speaker 1: by prison interests, is driven by prosecutors, is driven by

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Speaker 1: police and they're talking points. It's enabled by popular culture,

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Speaker 1: all too willing to just repeat these popular narratives, and

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Speaker 1: a media that in the best cases just kind of

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Speaker 1: falling on bad habits and practices and relationships that they've

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Speaker 1: built with police and prosecutors as easy sources and kind

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Speaker 1: of being lazy in worst case, really actively affirmatively trying

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Speaker 1: to help this narrative, but it's put out there and

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Speaker 1: people then they see and they feel like our current

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Speaker 1: system is inevitable, the mass incarceration is inevitable, that imprisoning

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Speaker 1: two point three million people is inevitable, and it isn't

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Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be. And we're at this point where

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Speaker 1: we need to topple this imbalance of power and control

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Speaker 1: over criminal policy and media because that control over it

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Speaker 1: and that narrative and that reinforced message is influencing people's

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Speaker 1: basic intuitions. How does zealous try to change this narrative?

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Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, so we support public defenders,

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Speaker 1: local organizers, people a direct experience locally to harness a

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Speaker 1: range of advocacy skills that public defenders didn't learn in

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Speaker 1: law school and organizers didn't either. So around just social

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Speaker 1: media advocacy, traditional media, new media advocacy, but also kind

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Speaker 1: of more fundamental stuff like just how to talk about

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Speaker 1: systemic issues in a way that is not legal ease

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Speaker 1: um that actually can reach more people, how to talk

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Speaker 1: about issues in ways with language and words that don't

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Speaker 1: um further entrenched the status quo. One of the things

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Speaker 1: about public defenders in public defense, so like Brooklyn Defender

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Speaker 1: Services where I practice for close to a decade still,

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Speaker 1: people who have represented were who were convicted. Those convictions

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Speaker 1: came from guilty please, And the reason for that was

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Speaker 1: just the range of laws and practices that intersected to

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Speaker 1: kind of course silence essentially like against the truth. And

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Speaker 1: and our advocacy tools in court were so limited, right,

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Speaker 1: We were limited to an audience of a judge and

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor who were already predisposed to kind of status

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Speaker 1: quo cruelty. We were limited terms of the media that

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Speaker 1: we were able to use. It was oral advocacy or

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Speaker 1: written advocacy were limited terms and messenger was us doing

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Speaker 1: the talking and language. And so what might it look

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Speaker 1: like to do advocacy to leverage your perspective and expertise

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Speaker 1: in partnership with communities to tell more compelling stories and

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Speaker 1: more compelling ways to shift the narrative long term about

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Speaker 1: crime and punishment. Well, wait, when you talk about the

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Speaker 1: media's role in that narrative. The New York Times they

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Speaker 1: need clicks and now they have a pretty good subscription base,

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Speaker 1: they're making money, and they were poor crime in what

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Speaker 1: I would consider a more popular way. When you wrote

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Speaker 1: the article about the Times, what was the lead up

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Speaker 1: to that? What was happening? What were you noticing? I

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Speaker 1: was noticing more of the same. The FBI came out

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Speaker 1: with data about most unusual year in all ways, leading

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Speaker 1: with a once in a hundred year global pandemic, and

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Speaker 1: the headline was homicide spike, violent sores around the country.

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Speaker 1: And so most people don't read beyond the headlines. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just New York Times doing this, was MPR,

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Speaker 1: it was watching the Post. It was New York Post.

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Speaker 1: And why headline cell right, You know, you want to

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Speaker 1: get the clicks. It's a cessational. But I'd also don't

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Speaker 1: think it's that interesting because the reality is the more

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Speaker 1: interesting stuff actually is if you dig below and what

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Speaker 1: was actually happening. But the data showed was that homicides

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Speaker 1: were increasing everywhere universally around the country. Number one in

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Speaker 1: places that had bail reform, places that which were very

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Speaker 1: few and most places that didn't. And a in blue states,

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Speaker 1: places that had police protests against police violence, in places

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Speaker 1: that didn't, rural areas, cities blew what it read, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: The lead should have been this undermines the data that

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Speaker 1: just came out undermines years worth of effort by police

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Speaker 1: and prosecutors and prison interests across the country to convince

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Speaker 1: us that any minor modest changes in a direction away

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Speaker 1: from them actually was causing crime because it was universal

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Speaker 1: in places that had some changes in places that didn't. Instead,

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Speaker 1: we hear homicides up. We also don't hear about the

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Speaker 1: fact that in historical context they're still at historic lows.

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Speaker 1: We also don't hear about the fact that across all

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Speaker 1: other major types of crime, those numbers were universally down.

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Speaker 1: But instead we get this kind of sensational headline and

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Speaker 1: this kind of mealy mouthed like kind of two sides

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Speaker 1: speculation about the potential causes of the increase in homicides,

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Speaker 1: and they allow, despite all of the evidence to the contrary,

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Speaker 1: police and sometimes anonymous police sources to say, well, it

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Speaker 1: could be this It could be bail reform. It could

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Speaker 1: it might be low police morale because of protests against

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Speaker 1: them killing people. Policy debate inside of a new straight

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Speaker 1: news story, yes, yeah, but but when there's when you know,

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Speaker 1: a there's not really debate. I mean, I get the

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Speaker 1: fact that people want to know answers they and this

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Speaker 1: is a key piece, like people do want to know,

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Speaker 1: and I get that instinct. Why is crime up? The

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Speaker 1: thing that's unbelievable. You have police out there and then media,

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Speaker 1: very smart journalists from the New York Times and other places,

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Speaker 1: taking their word for it and allowing them to like

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Speaker 1: speculate about the causes of crime going up, and yet

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Speaker 1: no one kind of addresses this key point of Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, we're paying you in New York City

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Speaker 1: eleven billion dollars a year, the most of any police

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Speaker 1: force in the country, more than most I would say,

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Speaker 1: countries armies. And there's still crime at all, let alone

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Speaker 1: rising violence. And you're deflecting to something that just started

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Speaker 1: two years ago that actually had been wildly successful, which

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Speaker 1: I can talk about bail reform. It's this incredible slight

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Speaker 1: at hand. Scott Heckinger, if you like conversations with dedicated advocates.

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Speaker 1: Check out my interview with Ingrid new Kirk from People

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Speaker 1: for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We went to the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice, to the Attorney General's office, and we

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Speaker 1: had very carefully, painstakingly documented how Ringling had allowed this

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Speaker 1: lion to burn to death basically in the Mahave desert.

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Speaker 1: So we went to the d o J and we said, look,

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Speaker 1: Ringland gets away with this all the time. So that

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Speaker 1: resulted in the biggest fine in US history against a circus.

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Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with Ingrid new Kirk at

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Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Scott Heckinger

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Speaker 1: breaks down the repercussions of electing former police officer Eric

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Speaker 1: Adams as mayor of New York City. I'm Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In New York

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Speaker 1: State attempted bail reform, a legislative effort that lasted just

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Speaker 1: weeks before the law was changed. I wanted Scott Heckenscher

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Speaker 1: to help explain bail reform and the criticisms that led

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Speaker 1: to its diminishment. Pretend that you don't know anything about

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Speaker 1: bail reform and you're a legislator, just put yourself there

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Speaker 1: and I'm coming to you to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: a policy. I'm proposing a policy, and I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: that I can guarantee the following result that in the

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Speaker 1: next eighteen months and three thousand people who otherwise would

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Speaker 1: have faced jail will be free, will be back with

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Speaker 1: their families, will be in their jobs, will be able

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Speaker 1: to wake up in their own bed, will be able

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Speaker 1: to fight their case, have a shot justice, shot at justice. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so go start there. On top of that, we'll save

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Speaker 1: taxpayers over six fifty million dollars. On top of that,

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Speaker 1: I can guarantee that of the people who are released

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Speaker 1: who otherwise would have faced bail reform will not be

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Speaker 1: rearrested for any crime of violence, and even less for

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Speaker 1: a crime involving any kind of use of a gun.

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Speaker 1: My gut is you'd look at me like you're overpromising

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Speaker 1: and you're being ridiculous, and no where you're out of

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Speaker 1: your mind. That's what it is. That's what bail reform is.

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Speaker 1: Bail reform in New York is this enormously successful change

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Speaker 1: for justice, for fiscal responsibility, for fairness, against racism that

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Speaker 1: keeps folks productive, and yet people think it's a disaster.

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Speaker 1: There's no tie to violent crime, there's no tied any

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Speaker 1: and stuff. And here's the the thing that's amazing about

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Speaker 1: is our leader and our leaders. Governor hokel admitted it

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Speaker 1: was admitted it was success. The same week she proposed

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Speaker 1: rollbacks that would put forty five more people on the

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Speaker 1: path to jail. She wrote it up ed that laid

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Speaker 1: out exactly what I said. It's been enormous success end

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Speaker 1: because essentially of politics, because of the narrative that's out there.

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Speaker 1: Bail folks need to understand, first of all, it ain't

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Speaker 1: it's not a punishment, it's incentive. It's an idea. You

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Speaker 1: pay money to court, you're supposed to then be out.

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Speaker 1: It's incentive to come back to court no matter what happens.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you pay the money back.

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Speaker 1: What we know is that people come back to court

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly without bail. We know that's true, so we know

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Speaker 1: it's unnecessary. In reality, though bail is a punishment, most

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Speaker 1: people who have bail set can't afford to pay it

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Speaker 1: and they're locked up. And what does jail do in

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Speaker 1: addition to separating you from all the things bills, you know,

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Speaker 1: bills piling up people in need of caretaking. What does

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Speaker 1: it do. It actually increases the likelihood that you are

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Speaker 1: going to get rear sit upon release. It's actually, there's

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Speaker 1: this fancy term criminogenetic. It's just basically here, here's the reality.

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Speaker 1: The primary characteristics of jail in prison are the exact

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Speaker 1: same as the prime drivers of violence itself, isolation, shame,

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Speaker 1: economic deprivation, and violence. And so we wind up throwing

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Speaker 1: a solution at a thing that actually winds up making

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Speaker 1: the thing even worse. I was someone who I was

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Speaker 1: so supportive of the police, even though I have my

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Speaker 1: own criticisms of the police. I view the police force

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Speaker 1: as a group of men and women who buy in

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Speaker 1: large are doing the job for the right reason, and

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Speaker 1: that like a lot of organizations political parties in the

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Speaker 1: country today, the leadership of the police department is the issue.

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Speaker 1: Defund the police is just miserable. You want police, you

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Speaker 1: need police, all those cliches, you hate the cops until

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Speaker 1: you need one or whatever. So I think the defund

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Speaker 1: the police was a miserable narrative. It was a miserable slogan.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll say, I actually think it's too soon

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Speaker 1: to say that that was a bad that was a disaster. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: like it was incredible that for any period time it

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Speaker 1: could have been a day, but that for a period

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Speaker 1: of time, legislators and legislatures around the country, we're actually

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Speaker 1: talking about divestment and reinvestment in different things outside of

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Speaker 1: the police. It's an important conversation to have, and I

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Speaker 1: think the most interesting models actually are in places like Eugene, Oregon,

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Speaker 1: where they have this program called Cahoots where social workers

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Speaker 1: are actually sent without armed police. It isn't actually pairing

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Speaker 1: the two because here's the reality. When you have someone

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Speaker 1: a mental health crisis, perhaps and I would say even

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Speaker 1: offered someone who has dealt with the police before because

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Speaker 1: of their mental health issues, when a police officer shows up,

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Speaker 1: whether they are the most well meaning, well trained, like

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Speaker 1: the perfect police officer, the one who is not going

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Speaker 1: to use violence, a police officer is by their nature

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Speaker 1: they're triggering. They represent a series of really harmful consequences

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Speaker 1: and solutions which include arrest, handcuffing, all the things that

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Speaker 1: you described. It includes, in the best case scenario, potentially

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Speaker 1: an alternative to incarceration with forced mental health treatment or

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Speaker 1: with the threat of prison. And so there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of studies that look at the fact that a police

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Speaker 1: officers showing up at all, even with a social worker

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Speaker 1: is problematic, and Eugene Oregon, the Cohoots program shows that

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Speaker 1: social workers showing up who are unarmed is enormous successful

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Speaker 1: and in very rare cases do they ever have to

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Speaker 1: call for backup And it doesn't lead to more violence,

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Speaker 1: it actually decreases it. So when a police officer became

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Speaker 1: the mayor of New York, I thought, this isn't the

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Speaker 1: best idea. I don't think that the person who's a

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Speaker 1: police officer should be the mayor. What do you think

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Speaker 1: about that it's becoming mayor? Oh God, is it? I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you it felt like a bit like Trump becoming president,

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Speaker 1: where I knew it was going to be bad, like

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Speaker 1: really bad, and it's still far exceeded my expectations in badness.

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Speaker 1: I mean, days before Eric Adams officially became mayor, he

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Speaker 1: announced that the first thing he was going to do

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Speaker 1: that was the number one priority for him was bringing

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Speaker 1: back even though it was still there, but like bringing

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Speaker 1: back and reinforcing solitary confinement on Breaker's Island. The second

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Speaker 1: thing he did, actually the first thing he did as

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Speaker 1: as mayor was then reject the opinions of over a

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Speaker 1: majority of the city council who challenged the fact that

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Speaker 1: he was going to be bringing back solitary and said,

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Speaker 1: come back to me if and once you've become had

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Speaker 1: the experience of being a police officer. So he cast

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Speaker 1: aside the opinions of the majority of city council because

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Speaker 1: they they had not previously served as police. He has

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Speaker 1: pushed for the appointment of two different people for high

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Speaker 1: level positions in his administration who have deep, long backgrounds

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Speaker 1: with ho A phobia. He has reinstituted a deeply violent

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Speaker 1: and racist arm of the police force, which one it's

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Speaker 1: supposedly set up to try to get guns off the street,

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Speaker 1: but what they wind up doing is terrorized black and

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Speaker 1: brown neighborhoods, making it feel like you're literally imprisoned in

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Speaker 1: your own neighborhood. And they have a long history of violence,

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Speaker 1: but he reinstituted that. It's carcerealism, it's hyper policing, it's

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Speaker 1: Juliani is Um all over again. And what he's done

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Speaker 1: is he's jeopardized his because you have your article you

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Speaker 1: say the police state is failing officers too. That was

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Speaker 1: in the nation, the police state is failing officers too.

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Speaker 1: I cannot more wholeheartedly endorsed that idea. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that a police officer can't be a good mayor.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's essential that we get that on the air.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that a police officer can't be a

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Speaker 1: good mayor. But sure enough, he comes in there and

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Speaker 1: he does what all modern day politicians do, which is

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Speaker 1: he just shoves a whole bunch of money towards his friends.

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Speaker 1: He gives the police department a huge budgetary increase and

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Speaker 1: seven hundreds You reported seven hundred and fifty million dollars

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Speaker 1: in overtime this year, which I think you're reported was

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Speaker 1: a seventy three percent increase in what was budgeted for

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Speaker 1: this year, seven fifty million to overtime. The mayor of

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Speaker 1: this city is somebody who needed to come in and

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Speaker 1: figure out how we're going to spend less money. The

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Speaker 1: city is in a financial crisis. The city has been

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Speaker 1: in a financial crisis. Its expenses are higher and its

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Speaker 1: income is lower than has been since the seventies. The

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Speaker 1: budgets around eleven billion dollars a year. In the wake

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Speaker 1: of that, the horrible shooting in the subway station where

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Speaker 1: where there was no police to be found, to where

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Speaker 1: they were, they were calling nine. It was just a

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Speaker 1: completely disaster. We already have police in the subways at

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Speaker 1: a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars every year

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Speaker 1: to fail to prevent something like that. And he then

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Speaker 1: was like, we need five hundred more police in the

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Speaker 1: subway or a thousand, But if policing or any other

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Speaker 1: administrative agency, it would have been defunded decades ago. It's

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Speaker 1: the reality. What I do know is modern day policing

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Speaker 1: the way that we see it right now, it's not

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Speaker 1: helping anyone Like numbers show that. I'll just say my

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Speaker 1: position is this, I don't hate police. I hate that

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Speaker 1: we continue to actually invest in a failed policy solution

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Speaker 1: proven over half a century. We keep thinking that it's

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Speaker 1: not just investing more, but even the conversation around like

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Speaker 1: training them to somehow like do better. We've tried that out.

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Speaker 1: We we tried to get you know, police to have

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Speaker 1: biased training, to like shoot less people and to be

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Speaker 1: more careful. And the reality is modern day policing in America,

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Speaker 1: by its nature and by its history is deeply racist, oppressive,

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Speaker 1: and violent, and we know that it fails to prevent

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Speaker 1: crime based upon their own data. And they're sensationally so

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Speaker 1: stupendously all the words bad at solving violent crime as well.

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Speaker 1: What's an example of a successful campaign? So early on

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Speaker 1: in COVID, we got a call from a public defender

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Speaker 1: in Prince George's County, Maryland. There was one court watcher,

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Speaker 1: so formally incarcerated woman who was in court filing prosecutorial

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Speaker 1: accountability letters to the state's attorney. And this incredible civil

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Speaker 1: rights law firm, Civil Rights Corps, filed a powerful litigation

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Speaker 1: based on sixty four sworn declarations from people inside the

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Speaker 1: Prince George's County jail being held pre trial, describing, at

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Speaker 1: risk of retaliation, the horrible conditions that they were facing,

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Speaker 1: from no ppe to force, being forced to clean up

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Speaker 1: each other's bodily fluids, awful, pay, have to pay four

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Speaker 1: dollars for medical care, and the judge dismissed those sixty

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Speaker 1: four sworn declarations as quote unhelpful. And we're like, traditional

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Speaker 1: advocacy ain't working. What can we do? We brought folks together,

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Speaker 1: these these kind of different groups of local organizers formally

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Speaker 1: incarceraty people and the folks who were currently in alongside

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Speaker 1: defenders and came up with this concept. Actually, now i'm

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Speaker 1: talking about it, you were involved in it, Alec. It

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Speaker 1: was exceptionally helpful. We worked with Broadway Advocacy Coalition. We

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Speaker 1: couldn't get cell phone footage of inside Prince George's County jail,

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Speaker 1: but we had their words. So we we in partnership

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Speaker 1: with the folks on the inside, and all of these

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Speaker 1: organizers conceived of this idea of kind of reconceptualizing the

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Speaker 1: lawsuit altogether and in drawing out those words and breathing

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Speaker 1: life into those words. And so we had a range

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Speaker 1: of social justice advocates, public defenders, organizers, people with platforms

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Speaker 1: who were amazing enough to take part. You included Jesse Williams,

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Speaker 1: Fiona Apple, singer songwriter, And within a week, that audience

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Speaker 1: of one went to an audience of over four million.

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Speaker 1: Within a week, that court Watcher of one turned into

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Speaker 1: the largest watching program in the country, which continues today.

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Speaker 1: Over two people volunteered to virtual court Watch to hold

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Speaker 1: actors accountable. The County wound up settling the lawsuit because

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Speaker 1: of the public pressure that came from this campaign for

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Speaker 1: basic truth. But one of the real, um real successes

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Speaker 1: I think of this, and this is so much a

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Speaker 1: part of what Zellis does around the country and what

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Speaker 1: we hope to achieve are the partnerships between these key

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Speaker 1: allies of defenders, civil rights lawyers, local organizers, community are

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Speaker 1: stronger than they have ever been before, and the fight

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Speaker 1: for so many other justice issues has grown stronger because

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Speaker 1: of this kind of galvanizing moment. We listen, We're very

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Speaker 1: grateful to you for doing this. You're someone who the

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Speaker 1: work you're doing to help powerless people in a world

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Speaker 1: where if you don't have any power, forget about a

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Speaker 1: lot of power, even a little power, you just get

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Speaker 1: steam rolled. Thank you, Scott, Thank you, Scott Heckinger. My

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Speaker 1: next guest. Robert Greenwald is the founder of Brave New Films,

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Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization whose focus is investigative documentaries. Brave New

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Speaker 1: Films has tackled subjects such as corporate corruption, war and

429
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: government secrets. But Robert Greenwald didn't start there. He began

430
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: his career in theater and made for TV movies and

431
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: found great success, earning two Golden Globe nominations, twenty five

432
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: Emmy nominations, and a Peabody. In four Greenwald directed The

433
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: Burning Bed starring Fara Fawcett, one of the most watched

434
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: television movies in history. Based on a true story, it

435
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: was a raw depiction of abuse that changed public awareness

436
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: and the fight against domestic violence. Greenwald then shifted to

437
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: work that would continue to make a difference, and the

438
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: result was brave new films. Their movies, such as out Foxed,

439
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism and Iraq for Sale, are

440
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: available online and at free screenings. In an effort to

441
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: engage the public, Greenwald has also lectured at Harvard, addressed

442
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill, and testified before Congress. He's a filmmaker certainly

443
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: making his mark. I asked Robert Greenwald about his background

444
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: and if school was where he got his start in filmmaking.

445
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: I did not. I studied history, and I studied philosophy,

446
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: and I did go to the High School of Performing Arts,

447
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: so way back then, I am had some connection to

448
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: learning from teachers, but mainly for better or for worse.

449
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what your experience has been It's been

450
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: a kind of experiential learning on the job, making huge

451
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: mistakes and hopefully learning from them, and having some unusual

452
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: and varied experiences. When you were at performing arts, was

453
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: it acting you had originally thought about? Was that the goal?

454
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: That was the goal? And I quickly realized that I

455
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: was not made to be an actor in any shape

456
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: or form. So and you left performing arts to go

457
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: where where did you go to college? I went to

458
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 1: Antioch College for two years, and then I dropped out

459
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: of Antioch College, UH to work in the theater. And

460
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: I also then went to the New School because way

461
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: back then you had to be in school in order

462
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: to avoid the draft. Now, describe some of your first

463
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: experiences in the theater. Were they in New York or

464
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: were they regional? Were you what kind of work were

465
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: you doing originally in the theater in New York? The theater?

466
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: Originally I was a gopher. And for those of you

467
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: who aren't familiar with the term, go for coffee, go

468
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: for tige, go for my script, go for any of

469
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: those things. And I loved every single second of it.

470
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: I worked for a wonderful director named Vannette Carrol, a

471
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: woman who I had known from High School of Performing

472
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: Arts and a show called Trumpets of the Lord, where

473
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: I delivered the paychecks or the actually the cash to

474
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: the actors, and then at intermission I sold albums from

475
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: the show, and then I tore the tickets when people

476
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: came into the theater at one Sheridan Square. And how

477
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: long were you toiling in the theater before you decided

478
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: to go to California. I was probably in the theater

479
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: and having a brutally difficult time of its surviving financially emotionally.

480
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: It was probably three or four years. And then I

481
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: was offered a job at the Mark Tape or Forum

482
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: directing plays, and I will never forget I was offered

483
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars a week, which I thought was extraordinary.

484
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: It provided financial security, and I went out and bought

485
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: a juice mixer at the time my first extra aus purchase. UM.

486
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: But I was on top of the world, and that

487
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: brought me to California, where I worked for Gordon Davidson

488
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: at the Mark Tape before UM for about two years,

489
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: and then transition to film and television, starting a company

490
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: called Moonlight Productions because my then partner Frank von Zernik

491
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: and I were literally moonlighting from the Mark Taper Forum.

492
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: When do you decide you want to start to pop

493
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: the fence at the studio because apparently you talked your

494
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: way onto a lot of movie sets or movie lots. Correct,

495
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: How did that? I tried? Well, as many things in life,

496
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: as you know, when we look back, we see things

497
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: a little differently. But I did realize as I was

498
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: at the Mark Taper Forum pretty quickly that I have

499
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: certain skill sets. One skill that I absolutely do not

500
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: have is working for somebody. I'm a complete failure as

501
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: an employee because I always had a way, my idea

502
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: of how to do it or do it differently. So

503
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: I realized I really needed to sort of start something

504
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: on my own so I wouldn't be in constant conflict

505
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: with bosses. And so Frank and I decided to start

506
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: a film what we thought would be a film company.

507
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: It quickly became a television company because television was sure,

508
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, was much more open to people than film,

509
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: which was much more elitist, if you will, having to

510
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: have connections and having to have money, none of which

511
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: Frank or I had money or connections. But TV wanted content,

512
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: wanted ideas, I'm a voracious reader of everything, and so

513
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: I was in heaven coming up with ideas for what

514
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: was then known as the television movie of the week.

515
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: What's the first movie center, what's the first studio lot

516
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: you pole vault into? It was Universal Studios. And what

517
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: my what Frank and I would do is his little

518
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: broken down car became our office and in his trunk

519
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: we kept all of our scripts and projects and books

520
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: and ideas, and we would get on a pay phone nearby.

521
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: Generally often there was a Howard Johnson's at Sunset. Sunset

522
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: Boulevard had a lot of pay phones in the men's

523
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: room by the way, and we would often be on

524
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: the payphone calling the studio and saying, oh, we're on

525
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: the lot, when we come see you, and then putting

526
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: our hand over when someone was flushing urinal. It's a

527
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: very very very high class undertaking, um. But we would say, oh,

528
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: we're right on the lot, can we come in? And then,

529
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: because it was centrally located, would either go to studios

530
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: on the west side or go over the hill to

531
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: the valley. And Universal Studios seemed to have the least security.

532
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: I was going to say, must have been a very

533
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: different time, and you could get on pretty easily if

534
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: you smiled and talked. So we we made a lot

535
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: of progress getting on the univers A lot and ultimately

536
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: doing a ninety minute television movie. What's the first job

537
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: you get, Well, they entrust you to direct the project.

538
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: Your first directing gig was what first directing gig, which

539
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: was Portrait of a Mistress with Trish Vanderveer, and I

540
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: remember it fondly. It was a ninety minute movie and

541
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: because of the economics of television, the first day of

542
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: shooting literally you started in Los Angeles, flew to San Francisco,

543
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: which was the location, and we're then filming at ten

544
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: or eleven o'clock that morning. What I didn't know, and

545
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: subsequently I learned to be thoughtful and check was. Trish

546
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: had tremendous anxieties and fears, so it was very hard

547
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: for her to come out of the motor home onto

548
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: the set. Yes, seriously, really really bad. So I fly

549
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: to San Francisco. It's the first day, um the director

550
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: and tremendous pressures. You know, I have storyboarded and sketched

551
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: out everything, and she doesn't show up. So on the

552
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: first day the first shot, I had to figure out

553
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: how to shoot around her and basically get coverage of

554
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 1: other people. And then when she came on an hour

555
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: or two hours later, Uh, make sure that I could

556
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: that it would cut and work well. So it was

557
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: a hell of a learning experience. My stomach gets into

558
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: not just telling you the story, but you know, I survived.

559
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,479
Speaker 1: This is a woman that was married to Georgey Scott. Absolutely, yes,

560
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: and he was quite a presence at times when he

561
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: would come around. Now, yeah, so you direct that movie.

562
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: What did you take away from that? You were hungry

563
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: for more? You wanted to direct more? Yes, And unfortunately

564
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: or fortunately, I've always loved telling stories. I'm not a writer,

565
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: and my interest in my skill set is in directing films.

566
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: So I wanted to do more and it was a

567
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: time when it was easier to get there's a process

568
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: for those folks not in the industry. Well, you have

569
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: to get approved by the network that is the financier.

570
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: So I've been approved as the director I don't know

571
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: how on that first film, and that allowed me to

572
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: do more television movies which I directed, and then within

573
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: a few years went on to do one of the

574
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: most successful television movies, which was The Burning Bag with

575
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: Fara Fawce, And that was a real change in the

576
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: sense that then I was offered tons of movies to

577
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: direct success film. Yeah, let's let's talk about that. Insofar

578
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: as you've done a handful of films between the first

579
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: one and when you've worked with Sara, had you done

580
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: a few films, what was it like for you to

581
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: work with her in terms of getting the performance you wanted?

582
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: And of course she gave a wonderful performance in the film.

583
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: Most people recognize that. It's interesting because in essence, she

584
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: hired me. She was attached to that film before I was.

585
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: Then I was approached by the producers John Evan and

586
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Steve Tish and they said, you know, here's this project.

587
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: And what they didn't tell me is tons of directors

588
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: had turned it down already. But fortunately, because of my

589
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: theater background, I had seen Farat off Broadway in extremities

590
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: and she was very good, and I felt there's something here.

591
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: And the other thing, and you know this about stars

592
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: is they have a pretty most of them have a

593
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: pretty good sense of what they can do. And so

594
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: I met with Farah and I felt there was a

595
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: real commitment to wanting to do this story. I talked

596
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: to her about I would want several weeks of rehearsal.

597
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: I would want to go with her to various shelters

598
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: for abused women and interviewed the women. And she was

599
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: signed up for all of it. And then I think

600
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: I said this even before filming or rehearsal, I said,

601
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: and I don't want you surrounded by hair and make

602
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: up people after every take, tweaking and touching, and I

603
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: want you to be able to kill the momentum, killing

604
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: the momentum, killing the truth. And she was not a

605
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: trained actor, so she needed the emotion and because she

606
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: didn't have the technique to recreate And in fact, one

607
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: of the best scenes in the movie when she's on

608
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: the witness stand and I just did it out of instinct,

609
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: was I kept rolling Rather than saying cut and start

610
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: over again, I said go again, go again. And I

611
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't let them cut, and I wouldn't let anybody come

612
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: on the set. And it ultimately led to us, I

613
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: think a strong and truthful moment. Was she grateful to

614
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: you in the end? Do you think that you guys

615
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: had accomplished something together? Yeah, she was very appreciative. And

616
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: then when the film aired and it got you know,

617
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: more people watched it and watched the presidential debates and

618
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: got all kinds of awards, and and it also in

619
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: a way moved me towards where I ultimately wound up

620
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: because the social impact part of it, I mean, we

621
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: were getting notes from legislators, laws were getting changed. It

622
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: was really quite something, and the realization of the power

623
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: of storytelling to reach people and affect lives of many

624
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: people throughout the country. Up until then, sort of domestic

625
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: abuse was looked at as women complaining, and the police

626
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: didn't take it seriously, and legislaators didn't take it seriously.

627
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: So she and I and John and Steve all felt

628
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: quite a bit of pride in being able to do that.

629
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 1: Most people assume that the ultimate goal to make films

630
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: to make feature films, and although that thinking that films

631
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: are automatically better than television, as he wrote it, substantially

632
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: in the last twenty years, obviously, and some of the

633
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: best acting and some of the best directings being done

634
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: in streaming TV and even a network TV and movies

635
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: are not necessarily the Shangla law that people have always

636
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: thought it was you know, but nonetheless you decide you

637
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: want to get into the feature film business. How did

638
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: that start? What was the first feature you shot? Maybe

639
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: it was that I do right? And whose idea was that?

640
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: Not mine? No, no, I know what. Listen, we all

641
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: have our It was Larry Gordon and Joel Silver hired

642
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: me and Olivia I think now they didn't have Olivia yet.

643
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: It was Larry and Joe huired me. Um, and I

644
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: thought it was would be fun. I love musicals. My

645
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: uncle is Michael Kidd, director and choreographer, so I grew

646
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: up watching him work. Um and I decided, I don't

647
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: know that I decided so much to do features, but

648
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 1: I thought this was an interesting project. And um, so

649
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: I went into the lions den of a big studio

650
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: movie and um, I emerged barely standing right right. I'm

651
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: told that nine eleven. I want you to clarify this

652
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: for me was what helped to build the next bridge

653
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: for you, which was to basically give up making entertainment

654
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: films and in for theater or television and go into

655
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: the business here and now? Is that accurately? That was

656
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: the timeline around nine eleven and what happened, Yes, in fact,

657
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: it was. It's actually very accurate and very specific. So

658
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: a couple of things all came together. One of them

659
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: most it was nine eleven, and as you've i'm sure experienced,

660
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: it was tremendous payen and tremendous fear. But our grief

661
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: as a country, as a people so quickly shifted from

662
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: grief and pain to rage and revenge. I found it, frankly,

663
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: quite terrifying, and particularly terrifying because of my four children,

664
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: who affect so many of the decisions that I've made

665
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: in my life that I make in my life now,

666
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: and I felt a strong sense of what, if anything,

667
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: could I do. And around the same time, my father

668
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: died and like all parents, like myself as a parent,

669
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: uh not perfect as a parent. And I remember very

670
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: specifically waiting to get up and speak in our living

671
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: room where we had a little memorial for him, and

672
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what am I going to say? That's not bullshit,

673
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: but that is real. And it really hit me that

674
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: one of the wonderful things he passed on to me

675
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: was this notion that you gain by doing something above

676
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: and beyond your own narrow financial interests, assuming you're fortunate

677
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: and comfortable enough, which I was, and so at that

678
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: moment it all kind of came together. I didn't know

679
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: that I was going to start a company, that I

680
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: was going to make all these documentaries, but I did

681
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: know I wanted to do something as difficult as it

682
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: was and it is, that would have impacts in a

683
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: way above and beyond somebody walking out of a movie

684
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: theater and saying, oh, that was fun or not fun.

685
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: For ven I was doing a play out on Long Island,

686
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: and it was the first year that Bay Street Theater

687
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: and sag Harbor had decided to extend their season beyond

688
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: the normal summer months and the summer crowd and go

689
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: into the month of September, and we were going to

690
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: run through the month of September for two or three weeks.

691
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: On our first invited dress was nine eleven itself, and

692
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: we canceled that performance. We all said that we were

693
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: not in any emotional condition to go and do that.

694
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: Then the next day was our first ticketed preview, and

695
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: the theater was small, and when you left the theater

696
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: from the dressing rooms, you had to pass through the

697
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: lobby and a handful of people would wait for us

698
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: and with tremendous sadness in their face. They would say,

699
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: thank you so much for giving us something, for coming

700
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: here and doing this and giving us something to take

701
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: our minds off this horrible event, because it was so immersive,

702
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: you know, you just couldn't get away from it for

703
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: months and months. I had a woman who lived in

704
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: my building who was Jewish, and she turned to me

705
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: and she said, now New York is like Israel. I'll

706
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: never forget. She said that, like, like we were gonna

707
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: have to live now in a condition of fear and

708
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: then a defensive posture on a kind of constant level.

709
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: Now the United States was no longer invulnerable to this

710
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I remember thinking to myself, you know,

711
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: I gotta get out of here. I thought I got

712
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: to move out of New York, and I was really

713
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: really terrified. I didn't really think much about changing my career,

714
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: but you do change your career. And were your politics

715
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: fairly conquetized, and you were fairly kind of inclined where

716
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: you were going to go once you started making a

717
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: different kind of programming, once you your company, Brave New

718
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: Films comes into being, and you're going to make a

719
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: different kind of content. Did you know where you were

720
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: headed because you've already been dabbling in that politically, well,

721
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: I knew that some of the most satisfying experiences when

722
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: I've been in the commercial for profit world had been

723
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: true stories based on things like the burning bed and

724
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of others, children being locked up in prison, unemployment, inequality,

725
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: the whole series of things that those are the ones

726
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: that gave me the greatest satisfaction. So I wanted to

727
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: do something that would be hopefully meaningful, and it also

728
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: where I could be challenged and use whatever skills I

729
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: have to the best of my ability and most you know,

730
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: A key piece of it was by this point, because

731
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: I've been very successful in commercial television, I had enough

732
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: money so that if I was careful and if I

733
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: was thoughtful, I wouldn't have to pay myself a salary.

734
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: And that was a big, big deal because you know,

735
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: the hardest part of my job when I started and

736
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: to this day, is fundraising. I'm lousy at it. It's difficult.

737
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: If I had to raise money to pay myself, I

738
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: don't think I could ever do it. But fortunately, because

739
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: of those circumstances and for fifteen or sixteen years now,

740
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: I've I've been able to be a full time volunteer

741
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: running Brave New Films and raising money for the staff

742
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: that of course needs to be paid, and I did

743
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: um the general approach to around equality in civil rights

744
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: and national security were all there. I think the work

745
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: that I've done and the amazing people I've met, whether

746
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: it was when I flew to Pakistan and interviewed drone survivors,

747
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: or when I went to Afghanistan and interviewed women there,

748
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: or people who you know, taking on the n r

749
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: A around the country, or voter suppression. I mean, just

750
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: it's so extraordinary the people you come in contact with,

751
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: and you're able to have a connection at a much

752
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: deeper level than a you know, a cocktail party or

753
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 1: a casual acquaintance. Now when you start, because I'm assuming

754
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: now if nine eleven is you know, kind of the

755
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: benchmark there. So you've been doing this for twenty years

756
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: roughly Brave New Films. In the beginning, were there people

757
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: you knew you wanted to reach out and you were

758
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: going to form a staff or the beginnings of a

759
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: staff with people you had worked with previously. Is that

760
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: you and a couple of young people around your kitchen table.

761
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: What is Brave New Films Day one? There was no

762
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: Brave New Films day one. It was the furthest thing

763
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: from my mind. What I thought was I wanted to

764
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: make a movie about the Iraq War and that we

765
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: were not being told the truth. And I thought, well,

766
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: let's let's try to do it. So I found one

767
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: or two other people many I mean the people around

768
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: me at the time, as you know, the agents and

769
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: the lawyers or whatever, tried to talk me out of

770
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: it because there was no money and they defined themselves

771
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: by money. My brother way back when, gave me a

772
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: wonderful little book called Wealth Addiction, and it talks about

773
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: people addicted to making money above and beyond what they need,

774
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: and it almost becomes an addiction. What is an addiction?

775
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: Never enough? Always thinking about getting more? And it, you know,

776
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: it really stayed with me. So when I made this

777
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: decision to try to do a documentary about the the

778
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: lies and the distortions around the Iraq War, I just

779
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: reached out to essentially a version of what you're saying.

780
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: A couple of folks who hired an editor, and I

781
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: hired a researcher, and we began and that was the start.

782
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: And then when we finished the film, um, so I

783
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: hadn't really thought about this. How are we going to

784
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: get people to see it? Right? So we had an

785
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: alliance with one of the local radio stations, and I

786
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: remember this so well, and they booked the Lumley Theater

787
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 1: in Cinea, Monica. And I remember going to the opening

788
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: the one opening night, the only night, driving in the

789
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,919
Speaker 1: car on I think it's Second Street on the way

790
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: to the theater, and there's a line around the block.

791
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: And I turned to my wife and my daughters and say, oh, ship,

792
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: somebody's having a premiere tonight and it's gonna get all

793
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: the attention and we won't even be able to get

794
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: into the theater. Well, it turned out it was the

795
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: line to see they are ac film because it was

796
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: such hunger. And then afterwards people came up to me

797
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: and it wasn't then you've had this experience just oh

798
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: it was a good film. It was thank you for

799
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: making that movie and telling that story. And that was heroin.

800
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: I mean, that got me, That got me hooked. Filmmaker

801
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: and activist Robert Greenwald, if you're enjoying this conversation, don't

802
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, tell a friend and follow Here's

803
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: the Thing on the I Heart radio app, Spotify or

804
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back. I

805
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: talked with Robert Greenwald about how The Burning Bed and

806
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: nine eleven led him to bring his storytelling skills to

807
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: another platform. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing.

808
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: Since Brave New Films founding in two thousand four, Robert

809
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: Greenwald has made numerous films with a strong political message.

810
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what frustrates him about politics in

811
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: our country today. Well, I feel a mixture. There's a

812
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: part of me that, despite it all, and despite being

813
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: a New Yorker, in my heart and soul, I am optimistic.

814
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: On the other hand, we've been working on voters suppression. Started.

815
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: We did a film the help of many folks about

816
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: voter suppression in Georgia. We had two thousand and twenty

817
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: free screenings before the two thousand and twenty elections. Uh,

818
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: and it continues. We're working on a new version of

819
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: it now suppressed and sabotaged. And Alex I tell you,

820
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: at times I don't believe I'm in this country. I mean,

821
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: this breaks my heart. Honestly, the number of people who died,

822
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: who died fighting for voting rights, and here we are again,

823
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that some elected officials can justify what

824
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: they're doing around suppressing, around sabotaging. It's breaking my heart

825
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: to hear these stories all over the country of legislation

826
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: being passed, people being intimidated, people being bullied. And I

827
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: feel at times like I'm either in another country or

828
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: in another time period. And I see that and as

829
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: kind of an overlay of so many of the problems

830
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: and challenges. If elected officials with a straight face can

831
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: get up there and say no, you should not have dropboxes,

832
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: No you should not have vote by mail, it baffles

833
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: me how they can live with themselves. You have quite

834
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: a range of topics you've covered with Brave New films

835
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: from two thousand four in the War on Iraq, out Foxed,

836
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: Rubert Murdock's War on Journalism, documentaries about Walmart war profiteering

837
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: in Iraq, Rethinking Afghanistan in two thousand nine. What are

838
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: you working on now? Do you have something that can

839
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: you discuss that? Yeah, it's going to be called suppressed

840
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: and sabotage two And the goal is to have it

841
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: done in the spring we put together you know, again,

842
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: we do two things right. We make the content and

843
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: as important, maybe even more important, is the distribution, because

844
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: there's no point doing what we do if people aren't

845
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: seeing it and if there isn't an impact. So we

846
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: have study guides, we have actions that we ask people

847
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: to do, and so if you have thousands of free screenings,

848
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: it's hundreds of thousands of people being reached, some of

849
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: whom are then going to be moved to do something

850
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: about it. So right now we're heavily focused on the

851
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 1: suppressed and sabotage. We were interviewing people around the country.

852
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: If any of your listeners have stories of suppression, they

853
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: can contact me Robert at Brave New Films dot org.

854
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: We're looking for more stories. We have some experts, and

855
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be as important, you know,

856
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,879
Speaker 1: because it's big picture stuff and the common thread out

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Speaker 1: like and not that we're always successful with all of

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00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: the films is I try to do two things. I

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00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: try number one, to put a face on policy, because

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00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: that's what film can do that books don't do and

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00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: studies don't do, and think tanks don't do. We humanize

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00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: it and then we try to connect the dots so

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00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: that people understand it's systemic. Walmart was not about a

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00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: bad boss. It was about a system of greed based

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00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: on a certain kind of capitalist where anything is okay.

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00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: Similarly with the Drone movie, if we stopped using drones today,

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00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: there's still would be issues around the military industrial complex.

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Speaker 1: So I try very hard, and it's and you don't

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Speaker 1: want to preach to people. You don't want to do

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00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: spinach or homework. So how do you tell those stories

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00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: that are deeply personal, that exposed the systemic workings and

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00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: that people want to see and energize them rather than

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00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: have them wanting to slit their wrists. We're really for

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00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: a small group of putting more time and energy into

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00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: reaching people. Because how do we take a clip and

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00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: how do you change it so it will reach a

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00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people on TikTok and how do you change

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00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: it so it will reach two hundred thousand on YouTube?

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00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 1: So our job is to reach the different audiences in

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00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: different ways that they consume the material, not to change it,

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00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: but to reformat. Yes, well, I'm proud to know you.

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00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: I'm proud to know you. Thank you very much for

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00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: coming on with us, and thank you for your time.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Okay, thanks be well. My thanks

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00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: to Robert Greenwald and Scott Heckinger. This episode was recorded

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00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: at CDM Studios and produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice,

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00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 1: and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social

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00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the

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00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio