Speaker 1: Hey, the folks, it is Monday, August twenty fourth. Why
Speaker 1: was Hayden Pennethier's boyfriend pawning her items days before her death?
Speaker 1: And why is her mom now making the rounds on
Speaker 1: media with that? Welcome to this episode of Amy and
Speaker 1: TJ were Robes. No evidence or suggestion of wrongdoing, but
Speaker 1: some feels icky.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say ick factor is high, and I think, look,
Speaker 2: we've all felt, most of us have felt a huge
Speaker 2: amount of sympathy for this young woman whose life ended far,
Speaker 2: far too soon. But as the people who were closest
Speaker 2: to her and the people who purported to love her
Speaker 2: are now talking and what we're learning actually makes you
Speaker 2: feel even more sad and sorry for Hayden Peneteer.
Speaker 1: What was going on in her life and certainly last moments,
Speaker 1: but also last days, last months. Even where do we start?
Speaker 1: I guess with the I guess what sounds like explosive
Speaker 1: headlines to me, Robes you can get into it. But
Speaker 1: the hearing that her ions were being pawned, and then
Speaker 1: her mom doing the rounds, and we watched at least
Speaker 1: one of those interviews this morning, and just it didn't
Speaker 1: you know what it came off like her statements did.
Speaker 1: The statement she wrote after Hayden passed, everybody couldn't play
Speaker 1: it seems cold, doesn't seem like motherly or caring, And
Speaker 1: how she talked about her, it felt like she was
Speaker 1: there to do a service for herself versus the memory
Speaker 1: of her daughter.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. She was very defensive and definitely seemed
Speaker 2: to be on a campaign, to campaign to make her
Speaker 2: seem less monstrous and to devent herself. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: what it seemed like. Look she sat down with ABC,
Speaker 2: she also sat down with The New York Times, and
Speaker 2: I think both of us just looked at each other
Speaker 2: and went ew because it wasn't about remembering her daughter.
Speaker 2: It wasn't about talking about true, how lovely and wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yes she mentioned it, but it was almost in passing
Speaker 2: because you could tell her number one goal was to
Speaker 2: basically continue to throw her boyfriend Brian Hickerson under the
Speaker 2: bus and to defend herself and her reaction. And I
Speaker 2: think one of her first statements, and you could see
Speaker 2: she was angry, she said, to the haters, you don't
Speaker 2: have the right to tell me how to mourn the
Speaker 2: loss of my second child. That's my domain.
Speaker 1: Okay, and that's true, Robes, and we I think you
Speaker 1: said it this morning in an earlier episode about just
Speaker 1: people grieve different ways. How are we to know what
Speaker 1: it's like and how she should react? That is fine,
Speaker 1: but how she is now putting herself out there. She's
Speaker 1: putting herself out there to be to be criticized. You
Speaker 1: want to give her space, Robes where a mother just
Speaker 1: lost her child, a mother who had lost another child
Speaker 1: years and years before. But Robes, she's out there, We're
Speaker 1: listening and what we're hearing. I can understand why people
Speaker 1: take issue.
Speaker 2: Yes, And look, she described herself as numb, and I
Speaker 2: think that that makes sense. You would be numb. She says.
Speaker 2: She still hasn't grasped that it's real that Hayden is gone,
Speaker 2: but upon sitting down with ABC News, at least it
Speaker 2: seemed to be more focused on trying to defend herself
Speaker 2: and her reaction and then to point the finger at
Speaker 2: Brian Hickerson. And when she sat down with The New
Speaker 2: York Times, she made this big headline that yes, she said,
Speaker 2: Brian pawned off Hayden's belongings prior to her death, including
Speaker 2: some beloved Vintage Guitar, and The New York Times says
Speaker 2: they independently confirmed that that in fact was true, and
Speaker 2: that some of Hayden's belongings are in a storage unit
Speaker 2: of Brian's. And so her mother was questioning this and
Speaker 2: certainly said that they're falling out. At least the last
Speaker 2: one that had them not speaking for months was solely
Speaker 2: and specifically because of Brian Hickerson. She said that she
Speaker 2: was trying to get her daughter away from him, both
Speaker 2: physically and financially, and she was so frustrated with her
Speaker 2: daughter's refusal to do so that, upon advice of her
Speaker 2: own therapist, she had to cut ties with her daughter
Speaker 2: when months before her death.
Speaker 1: So, how should we have an idea? Because I keep
Speaker 1: seeing eleven month number and I keep it. I don't wait.
Speaker 2: We didn't get any exact She didn't get specific in
Speaker 2: terms of the timeline, but she said at some point
Speaker 2: last year she spent time with Hayden in LA and
Speaker 2: I thought this was really interesting. She talked about how
Speaker 2: her daughter physically could not function because of the pain
Speaker 2: she was in. She said she described it as pins
Speaker 2: and needles all throughout her lower extremities. It was difficult
Speaker 2: for her to walk, and she said these were all
Speaker 2: from injuries that Hayden incurred when she was on film
Speaker 2: sets when she was young, doing her own stunts, and
Speaker 2: so she you saw her daughter in tremendous physical pain.
Speaker 2: It breaks my heart to think that you're so upset.
Speaker 2: And I understand she felt that this man was dangerous
Speaker 2: for her daughter, But to completely turn her back on her,
Speaker 2: to refuse to speak to her as some form of
Speaker 2: punishment or some sort of leverage to try and get
Speaker 2: her daughter to do what she wanted to do, seems
Speaker 2: so It just seems so cold, especially if you couple
Speaker 2: that with the fact that she was acknowledging her daughter
Speaker 2: was in real physical pain.
Speaker 1: What do you think this is her? In some way,
Speaker 1: she's second guessing that decision.
Speaker 2: Now. She didn't seem like it, she seemed she didn't
Speaker 2: seem she didn't seem reflective, she didn't seem sorry about it,
Speaker 2: she didn't seem regretful about it.
Speaker 1: I guess we hear this right Robes is that her
Speaker 1: therapist told her, don't talk to your daughter, don't be
Speaker 1: involved in your daughter's life, and that Robe is difficult
Speaker 1: if you're going out there making some campaign for people
Speaker 1: to understand you or to give you a break as
Speaker 1: a mother. That's one that I'll a lot of people
Speaker 1: are going to have a difficult time hearing that you
Speaker 1: abandoned someone who was desperate for help, so desperate that
Speaker 1: she's now dead. That's tough for people to hear that
Speaker 1: you justifying doing a what parent. Okay, I'm just saying
Speaker 1: heroes that that people will take it as what parent
Speaker 1: turns your back completely on someone who has lost her daughter,
Speaker 1: she lost her fiance, I say lost it there, lived
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, had that breakup, had an abusive relationship, had
Speaker 1: drug alcohol addiction, others. I'm not going to talk to mind.
Speaker 2: Now, could barely walk because of injuries she sustained while
Speaker 2: you were managing her career as a young actress. That's
Speaker 2: that is deeply alarming. Look, I think most moms, most
Speaker 2: parents will say I heard this from my mom. I've
Speaker 2: said this to my daughters. There's nothing you could do
Speaker 2: that would ever make me stop loving you. And when
Speaker 2: I say that, I mean there's nothing that my kids
Speaker 2: could do or say they would make me stop trying
Speaker 2: to reach out to them, stop trying to connect with them,
Speaker 2: stop trying to help them even if they didn't want it.
Speaker 2: I still I would never I can't imagine being the
Speaker 2: one to end any sort of verbal interaction with my
Speaker 2: child because I'm angry with who they're dating, and yes,
Speaker 2: and worried, and especially if I'm worried about their physical
Speaker 2: health or their mental health with who they're dating. I
Speaker 2: want to make sure I stay in their life so
Speaker 2: that I can be that voice of reason, that I
Speaker 2: can be a soft place to land, that I can
Speaker 2: be the person she turns to or that door she
Speaker 2: walks through when things aren't going well in that relationship.
Speaker 2: I think that's been a really, really tough thing to
Speaker 2: get our heads around. And then when we see her
Speaker 2: making this media campaign, it doesn't feel like she has
Speaker 2: any soft words about her daughter, warm words about her daughter,
Speaker 2: or really any remorse for having abandoned her.
Speaker 1: What you're describing, I think is where most parents land.
Speaker 1: They can't imagine. I mean, you'd had a lot of
Speaker 1: parents who are listening. I would be beating down the door.
Speaker 1: I would not let my eyes off her and this guy.
Speaker 1: And I think it's just I don't know what her
Speaker 1: purpose is. She Maybe she just feels personally attacked ropes
Speaker 1: and this is her moment and she needs to say this.
Speaker 1: She wants to clear the air and she wants to
Speaker 1: give it a shot to just it's getting ickier.
Speaker 2: You also got a little icked out, I guess, for
Speaker 2: lack of a better way to describe it. When we
Speaker 2: heard her sit down with ABC and take the moment
Speaker 2: to refute her daughter's claims about one of these incidents
Speaker 2: that happened in her trailer so many years ago, where
Speaker 2: Hayden Penetier in her book, her reacent book, talked about
Speaker 2: when she asked her mom at nineteen to no longer
Speaker 2: be her manager because she just wanted her to be
Speaker 2: her mom, like I don't want you in my business,
Speaker 2: I want you in my life, like that sort of
Speaker 2: a request. And Hayden said that her mom said to her,
Speaker 2: you owe me as in financially. She just said, I
Speaker 2: don't remember it like that and basically said, that's not
Speaker 2: what happened.
Speaker 1: It came off. It came off very very poorly. And
Speaker 1: you robes that's her. The dead can't speak no. And
Speaker 1: so she's on TV refuting a very significant claim that
Speaker 1: her daughter made about her life. She's taking away from
Speaker 1: that if she feels she needs to do that now. Again, Robes,
Speaker 1: I don't whatever she's going through, and however she is,
Speaker 1: you're trying to give people space and grace. But man,
Speaker 1: it certainly came off bad this morning. It was very,
Speaker 1: very icky.
Speaker 2: Cold, and you know what, I also, this is something
Speaker 2: that is nagging at me. So obviously, Hayden's younger brother
Speaker 2: unexpectedly died of an enlarged heart in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be the moment if you've been having this
Speaker 2: rocky relationship with your other child, your only other child,
Speaker 2: You've just lost one child, now you've got another child.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be a wake up call as a mom
Speaker 2: to say, man, you don't know what's going to happen next.
Speaker 2: We don't have time guaranteed. I need to make amends
Speaker 2: whatever it takes. I want a relationship with my only
Speaker 2: surviving child. I actually that actually crossed my mind. That
Speaker 2: and I believe some of the back and forth texts
Speaker 2: that were leaked by Ruby Rose was alluding to Hayden
Speaker 2: saying I can't believe that we can't come together basically
Speaker 2: in our shared grief of my brother and her son,
Speaker 2: that she just couldn't believe that her mom would basically say,
Speaker 2: I can no longer speak to you because I don't
Speaker 2: like who you're dating. That's tough, But that was not
Speaker 2: the only person giving interviews over the last day or so.
Speaker 2: When we come back, we're going to tell you what
Speaker 2: Brian Hickerson's brother, Zach had to say. This is fascinating
Speaker 2: because he gives us so many of the details we
Speaker 2: were wondering about in those moments when he and Brian
Speaker 2: found Hayden unconscious. Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ.
Speaker 2: A lot of people are talking now about Hayden Pennantier,
Speaker 2: what happened in the months, weeks, and even yes moments
Speaker 2: before she was discovered. And Zach Hickerson, that is the
Speaker 2: brother of Brian Hickerson, I thought this was really fascinating.
Speaker 2: He describes. They all traveled to South Carolina together the
Speaker 2: day before Hayden's death. He stayed at one airbnb. Brian
Speaker 2: and Hayden were at another Airbnb. He says he left
Speaker 2: his own Airbnb to go to church, but before he
Speaker 2: got into service, he had texted with his brother and said, Hey,
Speaker 2: let's all go to lunch, Let's all go play some
Speaker 2: indoor golf when I get back from church, Brian said,
Speaker 2: sounds great. So when he gets finished with church, he
Speaker 2: starts texting. Brian doesn't hear back. Starts texting Hayden, doesn't
Speaker 2: hear back. He gets a little worried, so he goes
Speaker 2: to the airbnb and he didn't have the code to
Speaker 2: open the door, so he said he was banging on
Speaker 2: the door loudly, which, well, Brian up. Brian comes to
Speaker 2: the door and it's just wild. He was sleeping next
Speaker 2: to Hayden on this pullout couch in the living room,
Speaker 2: so they weren't in the bedroom for whatever reason. They
Speaker 2: were on this pullout couch in the living room and
Speaker 2: they tried to wake her up, and they realized she
Speaker 2: wasn't sleeping, she was unconscious. And that's when Zach called
Speaker 2: nine one one and he said, Brian immediately gave Hayden Narcan.
Speaker 2: That's crazy to think they traveled with Narcan.
Speaker 1: That was my question. That stuff's not readily available, is it? No,
Speaker 1: I can't just swing down to seat.
Speaker 2: He had it right there, and Zach said Brian immediately
Speaker 2: gave Hayden Narkhan, and then both of them began performing
Speaker 2: CPR on her while he was on the phone with
Speaker 2: nine one one, and he says they were both giving
Speaker 2: her CPR until EMS arrived. I thought that was fascinating,
Speaker 2: and then he gave this very lengthy statement. Again, everyone
Speaker 2: seems to be cya ing at this point because there
Speaker 2: is an investigation, the DEA is involved, and although they
Speaker 2: said initially the autopsy showed no obvious signs of foul play,
Speaker 2: we still don't have an official cause of death. And
Speaker 2: we know that Brian did hand over what he called
Speaker 2: a bag of prescription drugs to police, So we don't
Speaker 2: know what drugs were in Hayden system. We don't know
Speaker 2: what drugs she took. We don't know who gave her
Speaker 2: the drugs, and if whoever did give her these drugs
Speaker 2: could or will be held criminally responsible. But when you
Speaker 2: start to see these statements flying, then you start obviously
Speaker 2: people have lawyered up for real reasons.
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not familiar. This is narcan. Is it a
Speaker 1: over the is it over the counter or is this
Speaker 1: a prescription thing. I didn't know anything about it. It's
Speaker 1: designed to rapidly reverse the effects of a life threatening
Speaker 1: opioid emergency, an overdose right, Yeah, we're talking about it.
Speaker 1: It saves lives to have this nearby, is the first
Speaker 1: thing that I find remarkable. The second thing is how
Speaker 1: did he know to immediately do that?
Speaker 2: Well? You could, you could you could assume that he
Speaker 2: knew that she was taking illicit drugs.
Speaker 1: Okay, oh boy, exactly.
Speaker 2: And this all took place, by the way, what around
Speaker 2: one thirty in the afternoon, So it's not a time
Speaker 2: where you would typically see two people sleeping on a couch.
Speaker 2: That's not I mean, who knows. They could have been
Speaker 2: partying all night, and we know teenagers can sleep that late,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like something that you would do
Speaker 2: unless you were under the heavy influence of something.
Speaker 1: Bottle sitting by that he was aware of or did
Speaker 1: he know what she had been taking beforehand? Had they
Speaker 1: been doing this? Has he been an enabler to a
Speaker 1: certain degree? I mean it could have been an accidental
Speaker 1: something as well, But rome, how much was he aware
Speaker 1: of that? We just figured out she's not insanenything about
Speaker 1: a pill bottle or something? Did they something? What indication
Speaker 1: would he have had that she's not waking up, so
Speaker 1: it must be an overdose?
Speaker 2: That assumption that was the assumption, and that is why
Speaker 2: there is a investigation. And when the DEA is involved, yeah,
Speaker 2: that could potentially be a criminal investigation. Now Zach gave
Speaker 2: this statement. There are a lot of assumptions, speculations, and
Speaker 2: accusations currently swirling. The truth will come out as the
Speaker 2: authorities complete and release additional details from the investigation. And
Speaker 2: it is important because the people who loved and adored
Speaker 2: Hayden deserved the truth. At this time, I want to
Speaker 2: clarify my involvement in an effort to keep the focus
Speaker 2: on the fact that we lost one of the most
Speaker 2: precious individuals on this earth and to allow those that
Speaker 2: cared about her to mourn without additional noise, chaos, and
Speaker 2: misinformation being created and propagated by the media as well
Speaker 2: as the public. So deflect, defend, and point the finger
Speaker 2: at the media his involvement.
Speaker 1: That was him laying out his involvement.
Speaker 2: Yes, so he wanted a church. Yeah, literally, I was
Speaker 2: at church. And then I mean, look, he's the one
Speaker 2: who who even alerted Brian to the fact that Peyden
Speaker 2: was sleeping right there next to him. I would assume
Speaker 2: already gone.
Speaker 1: What condition was he in if he didn't realize he
Speaker 1: was sleeping if he got up from I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but.
Speaker 2: That is the most insight we have gotten into what
Speaker 2: happened leading up to that nine to one one call.
Speaker 2: And there are still a lot of questions out there
Speaker 2: and certainly a lot of answers that Brian is going
Speaker 2: to be asked if he hasn't already by police. They
Speaker 2: haven't even said anything about any conversations, any sort of interrogation. Again,
Speaker 2: he's got a lawyer, Zach's got a lawyer. Everyone's got
Speaker 2: a lawyer. So it's unclear when we're going to know
Speaker 2: more details about the investigation, only that we were awaiting
Speaker 2: official autopsy results so far and any official word from police,
Speaker 2: which we have not gotten yet. But they haven't ruled
Speaker 2: her death anything. There is no cause of death, there
Speaker 2: is no manner of death, and so anything is possible
Speaker 2: at this point. But it is interesting as we see
Speaker 2: the people who were closest to her, who knew her best,
Speaker 2: now defending themselves in the media, as people do begin
Speaker 2: to speculate as to what could have caused Hayden's death
Speaker 2: and if anyone is responsible. We'll keep our eye on
Speaker 2: this developing story. Certainly we're going to get more information
Speaker 2: in the days to come, but we always appreciate you
Speaker 2: listening to us. I'm Amy Roebuck alongside TJ. Holmes. We'll
Speaker 2: talk soon.