WEBVTT - NEW Details On Final Moments For Hayden Panetierre, As Her Mother Makes Media Rounds 

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, the folks, it is Monday, August twenty fourth. Why

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<v Speaker 1>was Hayden Pennethier's boyfriend pawning her items days before her death?

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<v Speaker 1>And why is her mom now making the rounds on

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<v Speaker 1>media with that? Welcome to this episode of Amy and

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<v Speaker 1>TJ were Robes. No evidence or suggestion of wrongdoing, but

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<v Speaker 1>some feels icky.

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<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say ick factor is high, and I think, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we've all felt, most of us have felt a huge

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<v Speaker 2>amount of sympathy for this young woman whose life ended far,

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<v Speaker 2>far too soon. But as the people who were closest

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<v Speaker 2>to her and the people who purported to love her

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<v Speaker 2>are now talking and what we're learning actually makes you

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<v Speaker 2>feel even more sad and sorry for Hayden Peneteer.

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<v Speaker 1>What was going on in her life and certainly last moments,

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<v Speaker 1>but also last days, last months. Even where do we start?

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<v Speaker 1>I guess with the I guess what sounds like explosive

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<v Speaker 1>headlines to me, Robes you can get into it. But

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<v Speaker 1>the hearing that her ions were being pawned, and then

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<v Speaker 1>her mom doing the rounds, and we watched at least

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<v Speaker 1>one of those interviews this morning, and just it didn't

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<v Speaker 1>you know what it came off like her statements did.

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<v Speaker 1>The statement she wrote after Hayden passed, everybody couldn't play

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<v Speaker 1>it seems cold, doesn't seem like motherly or caring, And

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<v Speaker 1>how she talked about her, it felt like she was

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<v Speaker 1>there to do a service for herself versus the memory

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<v Speaker 1>of her daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent. She was very defensive and definitely seemed

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<v Speaker 2>to be on a campaign, to campaign to make her

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<v Speaker 2>seem less monstrous and to devent herself. I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 2>what it seemed like. Look she sat down with ABC,

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<v Speaker 2>she also sat down with The New York Times, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think both of us just looked at each other

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<v Speaker 2>and went ew because it wasn't about remembering her daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't about talking about true, how lovely and wonderful.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes she mentioned it, but it was almost in passing

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<v Speaker 2>because you could tell her number one goal was to

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<v Speaker 2>basically continue to throw her boyfriend Brian Hickerson under the

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<v Speaker 2>bus and to defend herself and her reaction. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think one of her first statements, and you could see

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<v Speaker 2>she was angry, she said, to the haters, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have the right to tell me how to mourn the

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<v Speaker 2>loss of my second child. That's my domain.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and that's true, Robes, and we I think you

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<v Speaker 1>said it this morning in an earlier episode about just

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<v Speaker 1>people grieve different ways. How are we to know what

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<v Speaker 1>it's like and how she should react? That is fine,

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<v Speaker 1>but how she is now putting herself out there. She's

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<v Speaker 1>putting herself out there to be to be criticized. You

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<v Speaker 1>want to give her space, Robes where a mother just

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<v Speaker 1>lost her child, a mother who had lost another child

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<v Speaker 1>years and years before. But Robes, she's out there, We're

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<v Speaker 1>listening and what we're hearing. I can understand why people

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<v Speaker 1>take issue.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, And look, she described herself as numb, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that makes sense. You would be numb. She says.

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<v Speaker 2>She still hasn't grasped that it's real that Hayden is gone,

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<v Speaker 2>but upon sitting down with ABC News, at least it

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<v Speaker 2>seemed to be more focused on trying to defend herself

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<v Speaker 2>and her reaction and then to point the finger at

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Hickerson. And when she sat down with The New

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<v Speaker 2>York Times, she made this big headline that yes, she said,

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<v Speaker 2>Brian pawned off Hayden's belongings prior to her death, including

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<v Speaker 2>some beloved Vintage Guitar, and The New York Times says

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<v Speaker 2>they independently confirmed that that in fact was true, and

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<v Speaker 2>that some of Hayden's belongings are in a storage unit

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<v Speaker 2>of Brian's. And so her mother was questioning this and

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<v Speaker 2>certainly said that they're falling out. At least the last

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<v Speaker 2>one that had them not speaking for months was solely

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<v Speaker 2>and specifically because of Brian Hickerson. She said that she

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to get her daughter away from him, both

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<v Speaker 2>physically and financially, and she was so frustrated with her

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<v Speaker 2>daughter's refusal to do so that, upon advice of her

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<v Speaker 2>own therapist, she had to cut ties with her daughter

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<v Speaker 2>when months before her death.

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<v Speaker 1>So, how should we have an idea? Because I keep

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<v Speaker 1>seeing eleven month number and I keep it. I don't wait.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't get any exact She didn't get specific in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the timeline, but she said at some point

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<v Speaker 2>last year she spent time with Hayden in LA and

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<v Speaker 2>I thought this was really interesting. She talked about how

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<v Speaker 2>her daughter physically could not function because of the pain

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<v Speaker 2>she was in. She said she described it as pins

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<v Speaker 2>and needles all throughout her lower extremities. It was difficult

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<v Speaker 2>for her to walk, and she said these were all

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<v Speaker 2>from injuries that Hayden incurred when she was on film

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<v Speaker 2>sets when she was young, doing her own stunts, and

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<v Speaker 2>so she you saw her daughter in tremendous physical pain.

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<v Speaker 2>It breaks my heart to think that you're so upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And I understand she felt that this man was dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>for her daughter, But to completely turn her back on her,

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<v Speaker 2>to refuse to speak to her as some form of

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<v Speaker 2>punishment or some sort of leverage to try and get

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<v Speaker 2>her daughter to do what she wanted to do, seems

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<v Speaker 2>so It just seems so cold, especially if you couple

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<v Speaker 2>that with the fact that she was acknowledging her daughter

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<v Speaker 2>was in real physical pain.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think this is her? In some way,

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<v Speaker 1>she's second guessing that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>Now. She didn't seem like it, she seemed she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>seem she didn't seem reflective, she didn't seem sorry about it,

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't seem regretful about it.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we hear this right Robes is that her

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<v Speaker 1>therapist told her, don't talk to your daughter, don't be

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<v Speaker 1>involved in your daughter's life, and that Robe is difficult

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<v Speaker 1>if you're going out there making some campaign for people

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<v Speaker 1>to understand you or to give you a break as

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<v Speaker 1>a mother. That's one that I'll a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>are going to have a difficult time hearing that you

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<v Speaker 1>abandoned someone who was desperate for help, so desperate that

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<v Speaker 1>she's now dead. That's tough for people to hear that

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<v Speaker 1>you justifying doing a what parent. Okay, I'm just saying

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<v Speaker 1>heroes that that people will take it as what parent

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<v Speaker 1>turns your back completely on someone who has lost her daughter,

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<v Speaker 1>she lost her fiance, I say lost it there, lived

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<v Speaker 1>in Ukraine, had that breakup, had an abusive relationship, had

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<v Speaker 1>drug alcohol addiction, others. I'm not going to talk to mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, could barely walk because of injuries she sustained while

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<v Speaker 2>you were managing her career as a young actress. That's

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<v Speaker 2>that is deeply alarming. Look, I think most moms, most

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<v Speaker 2>parents will say I heard this from my mom. I've

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<v Speaker 2>said this to my daughters. There's nothing you could do

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<v Speaker 2>that would ever make me stop loving you. And when

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<v Speaker 2>I say that, I mean there's nothing that my kids

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<v Speaker 2>could do or say they would make me stop trying

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<v Speaker 2>to reach out to them, stop trying to connect with them,

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<v Speaker 2>stop trying to help them even if they didn't want it.

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<v Speaker 2>I still I would never I can't imagine being the

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<v Speaker 2>one to end any sort of verbal interaction with my

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<v Speaker 2>child because I'm angry with who they're dating, and yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and worried, and especially if I'm worried about their physical

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<v Speaker 2>health or their mental health with who they're dating. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to make sure I stay in their life so

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<v Speaker 2>that I can be that voice of reason, that I

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<v Speaker 2>can be a soft place to land, that I can

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<v Speaker 2>be the person she turns to or that door she

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<v Speaker 2>walks through when things aren't going well in that relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's been a really, really tough thing to

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<v Speaker 2>get our heads around. And then when we see her

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<v Speaker 2>making this media campaign, it doesn't feel like she has

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<v Speaker 2>any soft words about her daughter, warm words about her daughter,

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<v Speaker 2>or really any remorse for having abandoned her.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're describing, I think is where most parents land.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't imagine. I mean, you'd had a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>parents who are listening. I would be beating down the door.

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<v Speaker 1>I would not let my eyes off her and this guy.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it's just I don't know what her

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<v Speaker 1>purpose is. She Maybe she just feels personally attacked ropes

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<v Speaker 1>and this is her moment and she needs to say this.

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<v Speaker 1>She wants to clear the air and she wants to

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<v Speaker 1>give it a shot to just it's getting ickier.

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<v Speaker 2>You also got a little icked out, I guess, for

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<v Speaker 2>lack of a better way to describe it. When we

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<v Speaker 2>heard her sit down with ABC and take the moment

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<v Speaker 2>to refute her daughter's claims about one of these incidents

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<v Speaker 2>that happened in her trailer so many years ago, where

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<v Speaker 2>Hayden Penetier in her book, her reacent book, talked about

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<v Speaker 2>when she asked her mom at nineteen to no longer

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<v Speaker 2>be her manager because she just wanted her to be

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<v Speaker 2>her mom, like I don't want you in my business,

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<v Speaker 2>I want you in my life, like that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a request. And Hayden said that her mom said to her,

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<v Speaker 2>you owe me as in financially. She just said, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't remember it like that and basically said, that's not

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<v Speaker 2>what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>It came off. It came off very very poorly. And

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<v Speaker 1>you robes that's her. The dead can't speak no. And

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<v Speaker 1>so she's on TV refuting a very significant claim that

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<v Speaker 1>her daughter made about her life. She's taking away from

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<v Speaker 1>that if she feels she needs to do that now. Again, Robes,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't whatever she's going through, and however she is,

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<v Speaker 1>you're trying to give people space and grace. But man,

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<v Speaker 1>it certainly came off bad this morning. It was very,

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<v Speaker 1>very icky.

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<v Speaker 2>Cold, and you know what, I also, this is something

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<v Speaker 2>that is nagging at me. So obviously, Hayden's younger brother

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<v Speaker 2>unexpectedly died of an enlarged heart in twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't that be the moment if you've been having this

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<v Speaker 2>rocky relationship with your other child, your only other child,

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<v Speaker 2>You've just lost one child, now you've got another child.

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<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't that be a wake up call as a mom

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<v Speaker 2>to say, man, you don't know what's going to happen next.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't have time guaranteed. I need to make amends

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it takes. I want a relationship with my only

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<v Speaker 2>surviving child. I actually that actually crossed my mind. That

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<v Speaker 2>and I believe some of the back and forth texts

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<v Speaker 2>that were leaked by Ruby Rose was alluding to Hayden

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<v Speaker 2>saying I can't believe that we can't come together basically

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<v Speaker 2>in our shared grief of my brother and her son,

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<v Speaker 2>that she just couldn't believe that her mom would basically say,

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<v Speaker 2>I can no longer speak to you because I don't

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<v Speaker 2>like who you're dating. That's tough, But that was not

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<v Speaker 2>the only person giving interviews over the last day or so.

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<v Speaker 2>When we come back, we're going to tell you what

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Hickerson's brother, Zach had to say. This is fascinating

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<v Speaker 2>because he gives us so many of the details we

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<v Speaker 2>were wondering about in those moments when he and Brian

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<v Speaker 2>found Hayden unconscious. Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people are talking now about Hayden Pennantier,

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<v Speaker 2>what happened in the months, weeks, and even yes moments

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<v Speaker 2>before she was discovered. And Zach Hickerson, that is the

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<v Speaker 2>brother of Brian Hickerson, I thought this was really fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>He describes. They all traveled to South Carolina together the

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<v Speaker 2>day before Hayden's death. He stayed at one airbnb. Brian

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<v Speaker 2>and Hayden were at another Airbnb. He says he left

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<v Speaker 2>his own Airbnb to go to church, but before he

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<v Speaker 2>got into service, he had texted with his brother and said, Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>let's all go to lunch, Let's all go play some

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<v Speaker 2>indoor golf when I get back from church, Brian said,

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<v Speaker 2>sounds great. So when he gets finished with church, he

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<v Speaker 2>starts texting. Brian doesn't hear back. Starts texting Hayden, doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>hear back. He gets a little worried, so he goes

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<v Speaker 2>to the airbnb and he didn't have the code to

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<v Speaker 2>open the door, so he said he was banging on

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<v Speaker 2>the door loudly, which, well, Brian up. Brian comes to

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<v Speaker 2>the door and it's just wild. He was sleeping next

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<v Speaker 2>to Hayden on this pullout couch in the living room,

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<v Speaker 2>so they weren't in the bedroom for whatever reason. They

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<v Speaker 2>were on this pullout couch in the living room and

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<v Speaker 2>they tried to wake her up, and they realized she

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't sleeping, she was unconscious. And that's when Zach called

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<v Speaker 2>nine one one and he said, Brian immediately gave Hayden Narcan.

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<v Speaker 2>That's crazy to think they traveled with Narcan.

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<v Speaker 1>That was my question. That stuff's not readily available, is it? No,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't just swing down to seat.

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<v Speaker 2>He had it right there, and Zach said Brian immediately

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.680
<v Speaker 2>gave Hayden Narkhan, and then both of them began performing

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>CPR on her while he was on the phone with

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.000
<v Speaker 2>nine one one, and he says they were both giving

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:54.839
<v Speaker 2>her CPR until EMS arrived. I thought that was fascinating,

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and then he gave this very lengthy statement. Again, everyone

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>seems to be cya ing at this point because there

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.439
<v Speaker 2>is an investigation, the DEA is involved, and although they

0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.319
<v Speaker 2>said initially the autopsy showed no obvious signs of foul play,

0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.120
<v Speaker 2>we still don't have an official cause of death. And

0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.240
<v Speaker 2>we know that Brian did hand over what he called

0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:19.000
<v Speaker 2>a bag of prescription drugs to police, So we don't

0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 2>know what drugs were in Hayden system. We don't know

0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>what drugs she took. We don't know who gave her

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 2>the drugs, and if whoever did give her these drugs

0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.520
<v Speaker 2>could or will be held criminally responsible. But when you

0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.520
<v Speaker 2>start to see these statements flying, then you start obviously

0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.040
<v Speaker 2>people have lawyered up for real reasons.

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Again, I'm not familiar. This is narcan. Is it a

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 1>over the is it over the counter or is this

0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.280
<v Speaker 1>a prescription thing. I didn't know anything about it. It's

0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 1>designed to rapidly reverse the effects of a life threatening

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 1>opioid emergency, an overdose right, Yeah, we're talking about it.

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 1>It saves lives to have this nearby, is the first

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.559
<v Speaker 1>thing that I find remarkable. The second thing is how

0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.320
<v Speaker 1>did he know to immediately do that?

0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Well? You could, you could you could assume that he

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.520
<v Speaker 2>knew that she was taking illicit drugs.

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, oh boy, exactly.

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.960
<v Speaker 2>And this all took place, by the way, what around

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 2>one thirty in the afternoon, So it's not a time

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 2>where you would typically see two people sleeping on a couch.

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 2>That's not I mean, who knows. They could have been

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 2>partying all night, and we know teenagers can sleep that late,

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.280
<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't seem like something that you would do

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.880
<v Speaker 2>unless you were under the heavy influence of something.

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Bottle sitting by that he was aware of or did

0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 1>he know what she had been taking beforehand? Had they

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>been doing this? Has he been an enabler to a

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 1>certain degree? I mean it could have been an accidental

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 1>something as well, But rome, how much was he aware

0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 1>of that? We just figured out she's not insanenything about

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 1>a pill bottle or something? Did they something? What indication

0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.880
<v Speaker 1>would he have had that she's not waking up, so

0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.320
<v Speaker 1>it must be an overdose?

0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 2>That assumption that was the assumption, and that is why

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.600
<v Speaker 2>there is a investigation. And when the DEA is involved, yeah,

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.360
<v Speaker 2>that could potentially be a criminal investigation. Now Zach gave

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 2>this statement. There are a lot of assumptions, speculations, and

0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:20.120
<v Speaker 2>accusations currently swirling. The truth will come out as the

0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.880
<v Speaker 2>authorities complete and release additional details from the investigation. And

0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>it is important because the people who loved and adored

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Hayden deserved the truth. At this time, I want to

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>clarify my involvement in an effort to keep the focus

0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:33.880
<v Speaker 2>on the fact that we lost one of the most

0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>precious individuals on this earth and to allow those that

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.720
<v Speaker 2>cared about her to mourn without additional noise, chaos, and

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 2>misinformation being created and propagated by the media as well

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.160
<v Speaker 2>as the public. So deflect, defend, and point the finger

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 2>at the media his involvement.

0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 1>That was him laying out his involvement.

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so he wanted a church. Yeah, literally, I was

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.840
<v Speaker 2>at church. And then I mean, look, he's the one

0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.800
<v Speaker 2>who who even alerted Brian to the fact that Peyden

0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.000
<v Speaker 2>was sleeping right there next to him. I would assume

0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 2>already gone.

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 1>What condition was he in if he didn't realize he

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.480
<v Speaker 1>was sleeping if he got up from I mean, I

0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 1>don't know, but.

0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 2>That is the most insight we have gotten into what

0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.560
<v Speaker 2>happened leading up to that nine to one one call.

0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 2>And there are still a lot of questions out there

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 2>and certainly a lot of answers that Brian is going

0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to be asked if he hasn't already by police. They

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:37.320
<v Speaker 2>haven't even said anything about any conversations, any sort of interrogation. Again,

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.720
<v Speaker 2>he's got a lawyer, Zach's got a lawyer. Everyone's got

0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.920
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. So it's unclear when we're going to know

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.800
<v Speaker 2>more details about the investigation, only that we were awaiting

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.600
<v Speaker 2>official autopsy results so far and any official word from police,

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.480
<v Speaker 2>which we have not gotten yet. But they haven't ruled

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 2>her death anything. There is no cause of death, there

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 2>is no manner of death, and so anything is possible

0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.119
<v Speaker 2>at this point. But it is interesting as we see

0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.080
<v Speaker 2>the people who were closest to her, who knew her best,

0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:13.800
<v Speaker 2>now defending themselves in the media, as people do begin

0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.200
<v Speaker 2>to speculate as to what could have caused Hayden's death

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 2>and if anyone is responsible. We'll keep our eye on

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 2>this developing story. Certainly we're going to get more information

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.560
<v Speaker 2>in the days to come, but we always appreciate you

0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.440
<v Speaker 2>listening to us. I'm Amy Roebuck alongside TJ. Holmes. We'll

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:27.880
<v Speaker 2>talk soon.