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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Ay, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Have you been thinking about this case, Paul.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about it all week?

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Speaker 1: John, Yes, Oh what's going on? I was trying to

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Speaker 1: not snicker every time you said he he he he

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about the offender and I said,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he's going to get mad at me,

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Speaker 1: which is why I put the reveal at the very end,

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Speaker 1: because then you wouldn't have time to be mad at me.

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Speaker 1: When I said, oh, it's a woman.

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Speaker 2: I am so used to you just leaving me hanging

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Speaker 2: and bamboozling me and all of that.

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Speaker 1: So it's all right, I know it's my job. I

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Speaker 1: know I've been called a lot of things. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure a bamboozler is something I've ever been called, but

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Speaker 1: I appreciate. Well, let's get into this because I just

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of background. So the first half of

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Speaker 1: this was very forensic ly, you know, talk about wounds

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Speaker 1: and weapons and who the potential offender is. Now we

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Speaker 1: know who the offender is, and now you're going to

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Speaker 1: have to kind of get into the criminal profiling part

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Speaker 1: of this, or the offender profiling, because this is not

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Speaker 1: an open and shut case. As you can tell, a

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Speaker 1: woman who is being accused of murdering her two former roommates, who,

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Speaker 1: as we get into this, we're very good friends. So

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Speaker 1: let me go ahead and do the recap and then

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Speaker 1: we'll get right back into it. If you've had any

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Speaker 1: lingering questions or thoughts, you can certainly talk about that

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Speaker 1: after the recap. Sure, Okay, So nineteen thirty one, a

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Speaker 1: train arrives from Phoenix to Los Angeles. There are a

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Speaker 1: couple of steamer trunks, a small brown suitcase, and a

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Speaker 1: hat box that smell. There are body parts belonging to

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Speaker 1: one woman in various locations in these different things, and

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Speaker 1: then another woman who is curled up in the fetal position.

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Speaker 1: Both are dead, and there has been oozing and smells.

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Speaker 1: There was a woman who showed up with a friend

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Speaker 1: of hers who was college age. His name was Burton,

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Speaker 1: and they claimed the trunks. But then when they thought

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Speaker 1: it seemed a little like maybe somebody was suspicious of

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Speaker 1: them because of the ooze, they said, we don't have

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Speaker 1: the key, and then they took off and they're in

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Speaker 1: the wind. And in the meantime, they've put together all

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Speaker 1: of this information about the two women who were murdered.

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Speaker 1: They are Sammy and Anne. They are roommates in Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: One is a nurse, and we haven't had any red

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Speaker 1: flags except when they finally figure out because they know

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Speaker 1: who Burton is because I'm assuming they paid him and

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Speaker 1: knew his first and last name, they found out who

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Speaker 1: the other woman is, and the other woman is Winnie Judd,

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Speaker 1: who Winnie Ruth Judd is a pretty famous name. When

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Speaker 1: people have pitched this to me, which of course I

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Speaker 1: said was a fantastic idea, it's always as the trunk murderess,

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Speaker 1: which is what she was known for. We kind of

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Speaker 1: get into the world of tuberculosis of independent young women,

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Speaker 1: you know, in Phoenix, and you know, a kind of

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Speaker 1: a man hunt for this mysterious woman.

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Speaker 2: When Winnie shows up with Burton in the La train station,

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Speaker 2: they know who he is. He's a local USC student

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Speaker 2: college age. Does he have any connection to Phoenix at all?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it right now now, except this

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Speaker 1: is his sister. She is a woman that passengers start

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Speaker 1: to remember and recognize who was on the train with

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Speaker 1: the hat box and the small suitcase.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this explains. So you have the two steamer

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Speaker 2: trunks that are in essence checked right. So when he

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Speaker 2: brings those to the train out in Phoenix, that goes

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Speaker 2: over to the train staff to in essence put them

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Speaker 2: in cargo for transport. But she holds onto the suitcase

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Speaker 2: and the hat box. And so when she gets off

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Speaker 2: and things are not looking right, she leaves those in

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Speaker 2: the bathroom at the train station in La.

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Speaker 1: Got it, abandoned all of it. If they had not

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Speaker 1: known Burton's name because he had worked for them, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a porter, I guess a little on a freelance

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Speaker 1: gig over Christmas to earn a extra money. Then I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they would have identified her, because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure she paid cash, and you know, eventually they would

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Speaker 1: have figured out with the roommate situation. But yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is this is where it all starts to kind of unravel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what's interesting to me is why

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Speaker 2: is Winnie And I'm presuming Winnie is the one responsible

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Speaker 2: for Samy and Ann's death, dismemberment and transport to the

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Speaker 2: train station. Imagine the risk that she's taking. You know,

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Speaker 2: she in essence is transporting two homicide victims plus the

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Speaker 2: evidence from the crime scene with her out to LA

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Speaker 2: I have to conclude at this point that in her mind,

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Speaker 2: because she's a former roommate of the two victims, that

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Speaker 2: she would naturally presume that she would become a suspect.

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Speaker 2: And so fundamentally, she is trying to hide that a

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Speaker 2: crime has committed inside that condo, at least for as

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Speaker 2: long as possible, so she can set up maybe an

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Speaker 2: alibi or put distance between her and the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: In terms of physical distance as well as temporal distance.

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Speaker 2: How much time has passed before authorities discovered that you know,

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Speaker 2: these two victims are victims of homicide, but it.

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Speaker 1: Seems so disjointed. So she gets rid of these mattresses.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how. She almost gets halfway through cleanup

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Speaker 1: and then changes her mind, and then halfway through something

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Speaker 1: else and then changes. I just don't understand what her

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Speaker 1: mindset is, but maybe we will as we go along.

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Speaker 2: I think she got in over her head. That's what happened,

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Speaker 2: you know, And that's she's now taking shortcuts just to

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Speaker 2: get out of dodge.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's get into this. Winnie and Burton. They're

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Speaker 1: both the children of a minister from Indiana. Winnie moved

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Speaker 1: to Phoenix from Mexico. She had been in Mexico in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, so just a year before. Winnie is also

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Speaker 1: a lunger, so she had tuberculosis. So everybody's coming to Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: So she's there for about a year and she becomes

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Speaker 1: friends with Anne. Anne and Winnie work at the same clinic.

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Speaker 1: Remember I told you Anne's nurse and she's an X

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Speaker 1: ray technician and Winnie is a medical secretary. They become friends,

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Speaker 1: and Winnie moves in to this duplex and over a

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Speaker 1: game of cards, you know, they listen to I can

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Speaker 1: just sort of picture this is so nineteen thirties. So

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Speaker 1: they play bridge all the time, and they all like

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Speaker 1: to listen to the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, which was

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Speaker 1: a radio show. And they have late night parties and

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Speaker 1: hang out with you know, well to do Phoenix men.

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Speaker 1: They're all attractive. Things get very complicated. They become good friends,

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Speaker 1: but then their love lives start happening. There's nobody's had

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Speaker 1: luck in this whole apartment with love and had been married.

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Speaker 1: I told you that Winnie had not been very lucky

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Speaker 1: in love either. Her husband is a guy named doctor

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Speaker 1: William Judd, and he is twenty three years older than her.

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Speaker 1: He is addicted to narcotics, and he had trouble holding

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Speaker 1: a job. And they got married when and she was

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Speaker 1: only nineteen, and she had two miscarriages. Her family was

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Speaker 1: giving the detectives in La some background on her, and

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Speaker 1: eventually they would talk to William, her husband, and they

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Speaker 1: would say, you know, what is she like? And they

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Speaker 1: said that she would sometimes fantasize about what life would

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Speaker 1: have been like if she had given birth to a

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Speaker 1: baby named Moses, Caesar or Napoleon. She would talk to

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Speaker 1: William about the baby's milestones and their adventures. She was

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Speaker 1: making up these stories. He thought it was silly, but

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Speaker 1: I think upon reflection, he wonders if there was some

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Speaker 1: sort of psychosis going on. Frequent moves and financial struggles

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Speaker 1: isolated William and Winnie, and she eventually had hoped that

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Speaker 1: she would just stay in Phoenix and that they would

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Speaker 1: stay married. But in nineteen thirty one, he was again

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Speaker 1: out of a job, and he took off and went

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Speaker 1: to la to look for work, and she was there,

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Speaker 1: you know, now living with these women. By June of

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, all three of them had tuberculosis and

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Speaker 1: at that point, so Anne took off and went to

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Speaker 1: Portland for the summer to be with her family. And

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Speaker 1: Winnie and Sammy are now together.

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Speaker 2: So when you say Winnie and Sammy are together, is

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Speaker 2: there more than just a friendship?

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Speaker 1: Not that I know of, no, But I think they

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Speaker 1: were trying to support each other. I mean, tuberculosis is

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Speaker 1: not you take a pill and it's over with. It's

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Speaker 1: very long disease, and so I think they were trying

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Speaker 1: to help each other out. So Anne left in June,

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Speaker 1: and it left Sammy and Winnie together just to kind

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Speaker 1: of support each other. In August, Anne comes back, all

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Speaker 1: three of them living together. They were friends, but this

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Speaker 1: is also now the Great Depression, so there's just a

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Speaker 1: self preservation happening here. They are very low wages pretty soon.

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Speaker 1: This is a small place, remember there's one bedroom, and

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Speaker 1: eventually they kind of separate so that Winnie moves out

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Speaker 1: into a one bedroom apartment on Real Street in early October,

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Speaker 1: and it's close enough where she can walk to work

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Speaker 1: if she wants to. There didn't seem to be major fights,

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Speaker 1: according to the detectives what they found. She just you know,

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Speaker 1: moved out and moved not too far away. Within weeks though,

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Speaker 1: these two women are dead.

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Speaker 2: You know, the detectives Observation are talking to doctor William

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Speaker 2: Judd and he's talking about how Winnie is kind of

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Speaker 2: constructing some sort of fantasy life between her and an

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Speaker 2: unborn child. And you know, these these names Napoleon, Moses,

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Speaker 2: and the other name is it Caesar Caesar? I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously these are significant historic figures. I also start to think, okay,

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Speaker 2: something there is a mental health aspect going on with

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Speaker 2: with Winnie. Now if she's creating a construct with this

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Speaker 2: fantasy life with a child that she does not have.

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Speaker 2: How is she perceiving Sammy and Anne? You know, is

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Speaker 2: there potential misperception on Winnie's part just because she's got

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Speaker 2: some I don't know if I want to use the

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Speaker 2: term psychotic, but she's definitely got some sort of mental

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Speaker 2: illness that's causing her to maybe read into certain things

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Speaker 2: that Anne and Sammy have done or said that she's

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Speaker 2: now feeling slided by.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how long, you know, any of these

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Speaker 1: women had had tuberculosis. I wonder if tuberculosis would you know,

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Speaker 1: make things worse if she did have a mental health struggle,

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Speaker 1: or would have caused something to begin with. I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about it though in that way, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I definitely don't. But it also brings up not only

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Speaker 2: the disease, but what medications are they being given, you know,

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Speaker 2: and maybe maybe Whennie's having you know, a bad trip

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Speaker 2: so to speak, from whatever medicaid was being used for

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Speaker 2: TV back in the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: Again, somebody with mental health struggles when your husband is

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Speaker 1: in work, out of work, and he's an addict, an

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Speaker 1: active addict, you know, she was probably on her back

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Speaker 1: heels the whole time, just trying to figure out what's

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Speaker 1: up and what's down. You know, the police in California

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Speaker 1: and Arizona start searching, of course, immediately. This is a

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Speaker 1: three or four day long search trying to find Burton

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Speaker 1: and his sister Winnie. Eventually they find Burton and they

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Speaker 1: find William, the husband, and they talked to the Phoenix

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Speaker 1: neighbors coworkers at the clinic. During Burton and William's interrogations,

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Speaker 1: the police say it's clear that they had not been

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Speaker 1: involved with the crime. They were very open. They had

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Speaker 1: alibis to attest that neither had been in Phoenix during

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Speaker 1: that month when it happened. So what Burton says is

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Speaker 1: that he first heard about all of this with the

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Speaker 1: trunks when Winnie here at USC's campus around eleven am

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Speaker 1: on the day that she arrived in La so that

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Speaker 1: October nineteenth. So if we believe this, she did all

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Speaker 1: of this herself. The trunks go on the train, she

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Speaker 1: goes to La you know, she kind of abandons the

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Speaker 1: trunks and immediately goes to USC and finds her brother,

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Speaker 1: and he said that she said to him, you need

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Speaker 1: to come with me. You need to get these trunks.

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Speaker 1: We're going to sink them in the Pacific Ocean. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't explain why he tried not to pry. But then

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Speaker 1: when the station agent started interrogating them, he turned to

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Speaker 1: her after they left and said, did you kill someone?

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Speaker 1: And finally she said that she could justify everything that

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Speaker 1: happened is exactly what she said. And then she took

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Speaker 1: off and that was it. And then Burton is the

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Speaker 1: reason why that she's kind of been caught this early.

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Speaker 1: So we've got William who's been taken off the table

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Speaker 1: as an accomplice. We've got Burton who's been taken off

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Speaker 1: the table by the police. Then they go to Winnie's apartment,

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Speaker 1: remember she has that one bedroom apartment. They find surgical

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Speaker 1: instruments in a satchel. There are also bottles of tell

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Speaker 1: me if this is right. There are bottles of luminol,

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Speaker 1: which is a non narcotic sedative. Is that luminol? Luminol?

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Speaker 2: I'm presuming. So I'm not familiar with luminol being used

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Speaker 2: in a medical sense, but it wouldn't surprise me. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we use luminol for visualizing latent bloodstains at a

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Speaker 2: crime scene, it's mixed with sodium hydroxide. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: got a buffer, Okay, But the luminol I think would

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Speaker 2: be the drug that they would be using.

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Speaker 1: Pino barbitual used as a sedative into control seizures, calming

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Speaker 1: effect and induces drowsiness. So that's what they found luminol.

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Speaker 1: They also found one suitcase that had men's clothing, a

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Speaker 1: man's surgical shirt, and an article of women's lingerie. There's

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Speaker 1: another suitcase. I mean, boy, she just packed all of

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Speaker 1: these in another suitcase that had some blankets, a small

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Speaker 1: caliber shell which had been fired, we presume of a

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Speaker 1: twenty five caliber shell, and a photo album of the

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Speaker 1: family with friends the jud family. In the southwest corner

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Speaker 1: of the bedroom, under a chair, they find another shell.

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Speaker 1: The shell matches the shells and the bullet in the trunk.

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Speaker 1: They said that there were nine tablets of poison that

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Speaker 1: were typically in William Judd's medicine cabinet, so he must

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Speaker 1: have lived there off and on. The researcher Ali said

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Speaker 1: she can find out what kind of poison it was,

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Speaker 1: but the first wife of William died of an accidental

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Speaker 1: morphine poisoning, so if that's what he's addicted to, and

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Speaker 1: that's what he had on hand. The poison could have

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Speaker 1: been morphine.

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Speaker 2: I suppose it sounds like when Hee was looking at

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Speaker 2: a variety of different ways to kill Sammy and and

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Speaker 2: poison possibly being one of the first ways that she

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Speaker 2: thought about. And then the expended cartridge cases, the shells,

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Speaker 2: the twenty five caliber shells found at Winnie's place. You know,

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Speaker 2: I kind of wonder did she maybe she had no

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Speaker 2: firearms experience and so these were test shots so she

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Speaker 2: could figure out how a gun works. You know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if they found any you know, bullet impacts

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Speaker 2: inside her apartment, or she could have gone outside and

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Speaker 2: shot at a tree. You know, who knows, But you

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Speaker 2: know the fact that she would be bringing the cartridge

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Speaker 2: cases back inside seems remote, but maybe not.

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Speaker 1: The mystery expands here. She ends up surrendering on kind

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Speaker 1: of the fourth day of this search. Okay, she turns

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Speaker 1: herself in in La to the police. A plea from

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Speaker 1: her husband and his assurance that you know, they would

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Speaker 1: hire the best lawyers is what got her in there.

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Speaker 1: So he had been interviewed by newspapers saying, turn yourself in.

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Speaker 1: This isn't going to end well, I will take care

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Speaker 1: of you, I promise. So she turned herself in. She

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Speaker 1: had been hiding at Lavina Sanitarium, where she had been

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Speaker 1: previously treated for tuberculosis. She had also been hiding in

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Speaker 1: a Broadway department store where she had once been a clerk. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so she's turning herself in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what will be interesting to me? You know,

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Speaker 2: she's bringing Burton out to the train station. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's a patsy. He has no idea at least when she,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, initially reaches out to him and he shows

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Speaker 2: up at the train station that this is a homicide

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Speaker 2: case that she's asking him to participate in. So she's

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Speaker 2: needing his help to move these steamer trunks, the suitcases,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And it may just be she needs to

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Speaker 2: do that in a quick, kind of non suspicious manner,

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Speaker 2: having her brother with her. But what's going on out

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Speaker 2: in Phoenix. I mean she's having to get all of

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Speaker 2: these items out of the apartment, plus two mattresses. There's

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Speaker 2: obviously a vehicle involved. Is it her vehicle she's driving

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Speaker 2: disposing of these mattresses. One is found, one isn't. But

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Speaker 2: she has to get to the train station and get

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Speaker 2: those items up onto the train. Is her vehicle parked

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Speaker 2: at the Phoenix train station, and if it's not, then

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Speaker 2: I would say somebody transported her there and that could

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Speaker 2: be your accessory on the front end.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we have a confession, which I know seems odd

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Speaker 1: because we're definitely not at the end of this episode.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you what she says. She gets in,

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Speaker 1: she starts to talk to the police. William did get

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Speaker 1: her a good attorney. Her attorney reads a prepared confession. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't have a note about whether or not this

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Speaker 1: is to the police or to the press or what

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Speaker 1: is happening, but.

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Speaker 2: It's also filtered through her attorney.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Okay, So this is what she says through

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Speaker 1: her attorney. I had gone to the girls home to

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Speaker 1: confront Miss Samuelson, which is Sammy, for some nasty things

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Speaker 1: she had said about missus Leroy, who is Anne. Miss

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Speaker 1: Samuelson got a hold of a gun and she shot

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Speaker 1: me in the left hand. I struggled with her and

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Speaker 1: the gun fell. Miss Leroy grabbed an ironing board and

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Speaker 1: started to strike me over the head with it. In

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Speaker 1: the struggle, I got hold of the gun and Sammy

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Speaker 1: got shot. Missus Leroy was still coming at me with

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Speaker 1: the ironing board and I had to shoot her. Then

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Speaker 1: I ran away from the place. And her hand does

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Speaker 1: have a bullet lodged in it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's bs.

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Speaker 1: You can act professional about this apology. You're so funny.

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Speaker 1: Your face changed in the middle of that statement.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so you know think about this. Let's talk

340
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Speaker 2: about and this is this is your prototypical husband accidentally

341
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Speaker 2: shoots wife and she's got a contact gunshot wound to

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Speaker 2: her left temple and has a contact gunshot wound to

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Speaker 2: her left temple. This is a gun that has been

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Speaker 2: placed hard against her head and the trigger was pulled.

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Speaker 2: This is not not a self defense scenario where now

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Speaker 2: in the process of defending herself, Winnie shoots. And this

347
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Speaker 2: is an absolute fabrication. And this is the attorney setting

348
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Speaker 2: up a self defense case to try to get his

349
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Speaker 2: client off. But the physical evidence completely contradicts that statement.

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Speaker 1: I think self defense is on the table for sure.

351
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Speaker 1: Her left hand, just so you know, is completely bandaged.

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Speaker 1: She also has a blackish wound between the fourth and

353
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Speaker 1: fifth fingers on her right hand. Because it is looking

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Speaker 1: like it's developing into ganggreen Winnie is escorted to the

355
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Speaker 1: Georgia Street Receiving Hospital. They extract a twenty five caliber

356
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Speaker 1: bullet from the base of her middle finger, close to

357
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Speaker 1: the point where it joined with the fractured index finger.

358
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Speaker 1: There were contusions over much of Winnie's body, So that's

359
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Speaker 1: going to be part of the self defense part, obviously,

360
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Speaker 1: we know. But self defense when the victim is fighting

361
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Speaker 1: back to try to save her own life does not

362
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Speaker 1: count well.

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Speaker 2: And we've got an expended cartridge case or shell in

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Speaker 2: Winnie's own apartment. You know, this is going back to that.

365
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Speaker 2: This is you know, you see these offenders when they're

366
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Speaker 2: trying to stage a crime scene. She's shooting herself in

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Speaker 2: the hand. She's not shooting herself someplace where it might

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Speaker 2: be fatal, you know. So this all speaks to she's

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Speaker 2: pre planning, you know, her self defense by injuring herself

370
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Speaker 2: both with the gun as well as maybe she's you know,

371
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Speaker 2: throwing herself up against walls and pieces of furniture inside

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Speaker 2: her apartment, realizing, oh, they found out, they've got the

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Speaker 2: steamer trunks, and now I've got to figure out how

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get out of this, and I'm drawing

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Speaker 2: that conclusion just based off of how ridiculous her statement

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Speaker 2: is relative to the physical evidence.

377
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Speaker 1: Well, we'll see what the prosecution says. They're now putting

378
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Speaker 1: together a case, and they're trying to do it quickly

379
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Speaker 1: because it's already October twenty ninth when she is extradited

380
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: to Phoenix to stand trial on first regree murder charges

381
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Speaker 1: for Ann. They'll have a separate trial for Sammy. So

382
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Speaker 1: her case involving Anne starts in January. So she's sitting

383
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Speaker 1: in jail for November and December and most of January,

384
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Speaker 1: and it's in downtown Phoenix. And it is a media

385
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Speaker 1: shit show, is probably the only way I can describe it.

386
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Speaker 1: And this is a bary bones first, I just thought

387
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Speaker 1: you'd think this was fun. We have actual video footage

388
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Speaker 1: from the trial because this was such a big deal,

389
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Speaker 1: this trial, So I sent you a video file.

390
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Speaker 2: So it opens up showing who I'm assuming are the

391
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 2: attorneys or the DA involved in the case, and then

392
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Speaker 2: it's showing a packed courtroom, and then now it looks

393
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Speaker 2: like the defendant when he judges sat down. She's dressed

394
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Speaker 2: in a very conservative outfit. She's looking very demuror trying

395
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Speaker 2: to pretend to be an innocent defendant. Well, but she's

396
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: been coached, you know, it's try to get the jurors sympathy. Yeah,

397
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: and then that's it. So, you know, what stood out

398
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Speaker 2: to me, Like you had mentioned earlier that Anne, Sammy,

399
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: and Winnie were all three reasonably attractive women. Winnie is

400
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 2: an attractive woman for sure, you know, and so you

401
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: could see where, you know, the jury could find her

402
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: as a very sympathetic figure. And so the prosecution, you know,

403
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 2: does have a little bit of a hurdle to cross,

404
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 2: to say that this woman, attractive woman who's sitting there

405
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 2: looking innocent, you know, shot and killed two women in Phoenix,

406
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Speaker 2: cut one of them up, and transported their bodies halfway

407
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: across the United States. Yeah, I mean it sounds unbelievable,

408
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 2: but you know, obviously there's no questions she's involved.

409
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Speaker 1: Let's go back though, to our discussion about we didn't

410
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Speaker 1: say psychosis, but the imagining the future of babies who

411
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: aren't there, the husband who's addicted to stuff, she's got tuberculosis.

412
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Speaker 1: Can any of that fit into this scenario.

413
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Speaker 2: At the same time, it fits into sort of the

414
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: why why did she do this? How does this play

415
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: out in a legal sense, you know, particularly in Arizona,

416
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: and what are there insanity statutes. You know, from my perspective,

417
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: you know, she may have some sort of mental illness

418
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: going on, but take a look at the level the

419
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 2: extent that she went through to try to cover up

420
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Speaker 2: the crime. That is showing she knows right from wrong.

421
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Speaker 2: And generally when you can show that within somebody, there

422
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: isn't that insanity aspect to them. There may be arguments,

423
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 2: mostly maybe on the sentencing side in terms of, you know,

424
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: how severe the punishment is going to be because of

425
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: some sort of diminished capacity situation, but in terms of

426
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: guilt or not guilt, you know, she knew from wrong

427
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: and she knew what she was doing when she did it,

428
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: that this was a crime. I mean, it's a horrific crime.

429
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Speaker 2: She killed two women.

430
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Speaker 1: Well, let's continue on because there are two sides to this,

431
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: and I understand what you're saying, but you know, yeah,

432
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm not ready to end the podcast right now, Paul,

433
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: So just bear with me. I'm ready to go to dinner.

434
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: Case to try to convince me she's innocent, and that's

435
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: going to be a big hurdle.

436
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: I want to present both sides of this case as

437
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: the objective journalist that I am, so let me show

438
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: you what I've got. Okay. The prosecution says that Winnie

439
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: had acted with premeditation. We've already talked about. That she

440
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: shot herself is what they believe. And here is the

441
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: mystery figure that I had told you. We need to

442
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: mention there is a romantic rivalry between her husband and

443
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: a lover that she has become involved with. He is

444
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: a wealthy Phoenix lumber baron. I don't get to say

445
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: barn very much with these sorts of stories. His name

446
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: is Jack, Happy Jack. I put quotes around that happy Jack. Halleran,

447
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: We'll go with Jack. And they had been having an

448
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 1: affair since December of nineteen thirty, so nine or ten

449
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: months or so until this happened. So the doctors in

450
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: Phoenix had told the police that a month before the murder,

451
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: Winnie had taken a pregnancy test because she thought she

452
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: was pregnant. She was not, sounds like. Also, the DA

453
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: presents what they called the drain pipe letter. So this

454
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: is to me really interesting. So one day after Winnie

455
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: turned herself in, there was a plumber who was called

456
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,719
Speaker 1: to that store that department store where she worked. The

457
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: owner said, something's lodged into I think it was the toilet.

458
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: It was a wad of telegraph sheets that had been

459
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: torn up and flushed. Winnie had been, of course, hiding

460
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: in this space until she turned herself in. It sounds

461
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: like a dressed to her husband. Not but it's a

462
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: confession and this is well, so let's see how different

463
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: this is. According to the letter, on the morning of

464
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: October seventeenth, these three women fought over whether they should

465
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: alert mister h who is you know? Jack hallierrant to

466
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: the fact that Winnie had introduced him to a woman

467
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: who had syphilis. And I don't know if that was

468
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: the intention for them to sleep together. That's what it

469
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: sounds like. And this isn't a letter to her husband.

470
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: So Winnie says, is defending herself, and she says, I

471
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: did not set him up with some bad woman. Because

472
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: Winnie said, she's undergoing treatment for syphilis, so she's not contagious.

473
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: Do not tell him this information. Ann said, no, that's awful.

474
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell him myself that Winnie is associated

475
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: with people who have syphilis and they won't have a

476
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: thing to do with you. Is what Anne told Winnie.

477
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: If we think Winnie's the one who wrote this letter,

478
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: which I'm sure we do, Sammy, we need a gun

479
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: at Winnie is what Winnie says to her husband in

480
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: this letter. In fear for her life, Winnie covered the

481
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: gun's muzzle with her hand, grabbed a bread knife, and

482
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: after Sammy shot her hand, Winnie disarmed her and retaliated.

483
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: Believing that Anne had plotted to blackmail her, she shot

484
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: her too. The letter ends with the writer reasserting that

485
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: she had killed in self defense. She said, I am

486
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: essentially dead at this point. Forgive me, not forget me.

487
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: She says. It was as much a battle as Germany

488
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: and the US. I killed in self defense, so she

489
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: was at war, she was saying.

490
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: And again this is BS.

491
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: I don't understand the dynamic between Halran and Winnie here,

492
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna see if we hear from him. What

493
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: do you think about that?

494
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: Let me just address you know straight up. You know

495
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: this confession to her estranged husband, William. Yep, you know

496
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: she's saying in this confession that Sammy produced the twenty

497
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: five caliber pistol. And so when he, of course covers

498
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: the pistol, up with her hand, arms herself with a knife,

499
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: and that's presumably how she gets her injury to her

500
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: Her hand is during this struggle. Yet she has expended

501
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: cartridge cases from that pistol in her apartment all the

502
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: way out in la That ballistics showed came from that pistol.

503
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,239
Speaker 2: It matches the bullets out in Phoenix. So again this

504
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense. Why is Samy out of Phoenix

505
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: producing the murder weapon, and then why is Whinnie taking

506
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: this pistol And in fact, she doesn't take the pistol.

507
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: The pistol is found inside I think it was a

508
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: hat box. I mean, she's in the process of transporting

509
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: the pistol back. It never makes it back to her apartment,

510
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: So she had that pistol ahead of time, and then

511
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: it gets taken out to Phoenix where she shoots and Sammy. Again,

512
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: the physical evidence doesn't match the confession. So this is

513
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: a letter to her strange husband that is self serving.

514
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: And I'm not entirely sure the reason for this whole

515
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: syphilis aspect. That may just be it's such an outrageous

516
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: act to set somebody up that you know has such

517
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: what could potentially be a disfiguring and deadly disease, that

518
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: there's a reason why Winnie had to act the way

519
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: she did and kill Sammy and Anne. I think she's

520
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: just trying to come up with a mechanism as to

521
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: why she acted out in self defense. So it's completely

522
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: self serving. It doesn't match up with the physical evidence and.

523
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: The defenses sort of behind everything to begin with the

524
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: judges ruling against them for bringing on certain kinds of experts,

525
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: and nobody's talking about this bloody fingerprint, which I thought

526
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: was interesting. It was a thumb print actually on the

527
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: window shade, So we don't hear anything about that. We

528
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: hear in the defense from two psychiatrists who say she

529
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: was faking insanity.

530
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

531
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: Oh, Also one interesting note, So there were witnesses who

532
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: did see Winnie at the duplex because she didn't live

533
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: there anymore, and it was Friday night, so ten thirty pm.

534
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: I just thought you'd be interested in the sequence of events.

535
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: So ten thirty pm Friday night, she kills them, and

536
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: then she takes the Sunday night train to Los Angeles.

537
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: So she takes all day Saturday and most of the

538
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: day Sunday to get this taken care do you feel

539
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: like she needed an accomplice or no, I know we've

540
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: kind of touched on this before.

541
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: I don't think she necessarily needed an accomplice. And when

542
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: you take a look, I did see that photo of

543
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: the hallway in Anne and Sammy's apartment where you have

544
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: the scratches on the floor, it's obvious those scratches are

545
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: from those metal protective corners on the heavy steamer trunk

546
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: and it's being drug So that suggests to me one

547
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: person is dragging that trunk at least over that section

548
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: of the exposed floor. It is a lot of work

549
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: for one person to do everything that happened, you know,

550
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: in terms of the dismemberment, the clean up, the packaging,

551
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: getting into a vehicle, disposing the mattresses, getting everything out

552
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: to the train. And that's where I, you know, from

553
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: an investigator standpoint, is like, well, wor's her vehicle? Is

554
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: her vehicle at the Phoenix train station. If it's not,

555
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: then I have questions. And then oh, maybe there is

556
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: an accomplished And it may be another patsy where she

557
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: called up and said, hey, you know, I've got some

558
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: heavy luggage. Can you help pick this up? And oh,

559
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: by the way a couple of mattresses, you know, bring

560
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: a truck and just ignore the fact that one mattress

561
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: has a bunch of blood on it.

562
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's pretty Uh, you'd have to have a

563
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: pretty big patsy for the right. Yes, Okay, the defense

564
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: does something interesting. She had said it was self defense.

565
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: The defense says she's insane. So they enter a plea

566
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: of insanity. They have psychiatrists who and her parents who

567
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: all take the stand. There's no consensus between the psych

568
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: hiatrist as to her mental state to think that she

569
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: has schizophrenia. The third one thinks she has a psychopathic

570
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: personality with a paranoia strain. Is that a thing? Paranoid strain?

571
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: They're putting an additional characteristic onto the psychopathy diagnosis, you know,

572
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: They're they're indicating, yeah, there's a level of paranoia, you know,

573
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: and of course with schizophrenia you can see where you

574
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: have your paranoid schizophrenic right, and now they're literally in

575
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: this world where something is after them. They're they're paranoid

576
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: about whatever it is. And so this particular psychologist is going, well, no, no,

577
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: she's not schizophrenic. She's psychopathic, but she's got a paranoid

578
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: aspect to her, you know, and that may be where

579
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: you know, she's assessing and and Sammy and their behaviors

580
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: and statements and everything else, and are completely misinterpreting what

581
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: they are saying as being somehow harmful to her. And

582
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: there may be that paranoid filter that she is processing

583
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: that type of information through. But you know, fundamentally, I

584
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: just don't see any real argument for true insanity here.

585
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: You know, there may be a mental health concern, you know,

586
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: but I don't think it rises to the level where

587
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: you can't convict.

588
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: Well, let's see, we have a verdict coming up after

589
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: everybody rests, and she is convicted a first degree murder.

590
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: She is sentenced to death, which is supposed to happen

591
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: in February of nineteen thirty three. This does not happen

592
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: because when e jud will not go away, this just

593
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: keeps going and going. And it's really interesting. This is

594
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: like a confession rama, I guess, is what I would call.

595
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of confessions that happen. Okay, so the

596
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: attorney's demand a retrial. They said there's some kind of

597
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: jury bias. Doesn't work. Convictions upheld. There are petitions sent

598
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: to the governor on her behalf, and she hires new

599
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: attorneys who fall for a hearing before the State Supreme

600
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Court a little less than a month before she's scheduled

601
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: to hang. Okay, so nothing is working for her, She

602
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: requests a private conference with her attorney and law enforcement

603
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: officers and reporter. She confesses in front of all of

604
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: these people. She claims self defense, but she fingers an accomplice.

605
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: Who is Jack Polleran. She says that after she shot

606
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: and killed Anne and Sammy, that he helped her remove

607
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: the bodies and get rid of the evidence. He carried

608
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: Sammy from the kitchen to Anne's bed, and then he

609
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: mopped up the kitchen. He wanted to call a doctor.

610
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: While drawing the shade to make the phone call, he

611
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: left behind a bloody fingerprint. Dumb print? Is I think

612
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: what it meant? He pulled Sammy's large packing trunk from

613
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: the garage, placed Anne's body in it, and told Winnie

614
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: he would dispose of it in the desert. He told

615
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: her that Sammy had been operated on, is what he said.

616
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: So she's saying he dismis Sammy. At this point, Whennie

617
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: wanted to just go see William. She felt safe with William,

618
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: so she went to LA. She wanted him to remove

619
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: the bullet, so she and Jack devised a plan where

620
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: she would take the trunks with her to LA on

621
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: the Saturday night train and he would arrange for someone

622
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: to meet her at the Los Angeles depot to dump

623
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: the trunk. But she ran into trouble when the deliverymen

624
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: who went to bring the trunk from the duplex to

625
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: the train station said no because the trunk, this one trunk,

626
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: was too heavy and there was blood leaking from the trunk.

627
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: Although when he was panicked, she decided to move ahead

628
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: with the plan. She told the delivery service to transport

629
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: the trunk to her apartment because she was at ann

630
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: in Sammy's apartment. The next day, she transferred part of

631
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: Sammy's dismembered body into the small suitcase. By Monday night,

632
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: she was on the train.

633
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 2: The first thing I want to know is the bloody

634
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: thumb print was at actually matched to Jack. No, okay,

635
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: So at this point, right now, without that physical evidence,

636
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: I can't say whether it's more feasible or not. You know,

637
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: when you were first reading that, I was like, oh, okay,

638
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: so Jack was there. Now, I can't say that, and

639
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: she's still claiming self defense, and I still have a

640
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: massive issue with that, particularly with Anne because of the

641
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: contact gunshot wound to the left temple.

642
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: Yep.

643
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: My suspicion is that as she has gone through the

644
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: trial process, seeing testimony heard, you know, evidence and everything else,

645
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: she is now coming up with another scenario that better

646
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: fits the information that she knows that the prosecutors have,

647
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: but it still is way off base from what actually happened.

648
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the saga continues. The Arizona Supreme Court says

649
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: no to this rehearing, but Markopa County is considering indicting

650
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: Jack because this all sounds sort of reasonable to the

651
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: DA there. I mean, she's not saying I didn't do it,

652
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: She's just saying I got help. So they try to

653
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: indict Jack and she testifies in front of a grand jury.

654
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: She reiterates the details of the confession. She convinced a

655
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: grand jury that she had in fact killed Anne in

656
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 1: Sammy in self defense. And it sounds like the juryman

657
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: petition for her death sentence to be commuted to life

658
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: in prison, which is what happened. So she got out

659
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: of the death penalty. Jack is not indicted, but there

660
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: is another hearing, so they petitioned for it. But then

661
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: there has to be God, there's a lot of hearings

662
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 1: in the story. There has to be a hearing to

663
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: figure out whether or not she will be executed or

664
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: given life in prison. The hearing to determine if Winnie's

665
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: sentence is to be commuted to life in prison happens

666
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 1: in March of thirty three. They introduced new witnesses, someone

667
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: who is testifying to have smelled burning something coming from

668
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: the vacant lot to the south of North Second Street

669
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: duplex on the night of octob seventeenth. I don't know

670
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: if they think that's where the mop happened, but that

671
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: was a new detail.

672
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: The mop itself, even though there was evidence that had

673
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: it had been burned, was you know, the handle was

674
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: found in the actual victim's apartment, right, so probably the

675
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: working end of the mop, the one that got bloody.

676
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 2: It was white as being burned, along with a mattress.

677
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: A bloody mattress.

678
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is not This person did not explore

679
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: what that was, so he didn't get out he could

680
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: just smell it. Sure, the phoenix sheriff said that when

681
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: he escorted her from la back to Phoenix when she

682
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: was in his jail, she admitted that while she was

683
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: repacking the bodies in two separate trunks, some of Sammy's,

684
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: the bladder and the intestines fell out onto the floor

685
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: of her apartment. She wrapped the organs and towels and

686
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: then threw them out the window of the train. So

687
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: she carried them on to the train in her suitcase,

688
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: I think, and then tossed them out the window. There

689
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: was a lot of blood in the breakfast room in

690
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: the kitchen, is what he's testifying too. And then Jack

691
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: takes the stand. So you have a I can only

692
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: expresses a skeptical look about the tossing the bladder and

693
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: the intestines out the window of a train.

694
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: Well, I think I primarily have a problem. You know

695
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: that the intestines and the bladder just fell out. You

696
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: know they are somewhat attached to the body. They need

697
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: to be removed. Now, the intestines, you know, it's not

698
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: just some you know, wound up tube inside the body

699
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: that you know, you get cut open, and it's just

700
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: they just go everywhere. I mean, the loops of the

701
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 2: intestine are actually interconnected. You got this momentum, there's structure

702
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: to it. Now, yes, it could when you bisect a body,

703
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you've got this intestinal mass. But

704
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: for the bladder just to fall out, it has to

705
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: be removed. It literally needs to be cut out in

706
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: order to you know, package it. Could she have taken

707
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 2: it on the train, maybe, but you know, why do that.

708
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: I can't dispute what she's saying there outside of the fact, Oh,

709
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: they just fell out, so I had to do something.

710
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: There's something else going on there.

711
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's keep going, because this is the story

712
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: that never ends. Paul Jack takes the stand. He says,

713
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: this is bananas. I was just sleeping with this woman

714
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: and that's it, and they believe him. William, her husband, says,

715
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: she is not a woman of sound reason. She still

716
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: is going to hang. The Arizona Bord of Pardons and

717
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: Paroles says, we're keeping the hanging. So she said to

718
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: hang April twenty first of nineteen thirty three, so this

719
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: is a full two years after this is going on,

720
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: but ten days before her execution, the warden at the

721
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: Arizona State Prison in Florence requests and is granted a

722
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: sanity trial for Winnie. So there are ten days of

723
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: expert testimony. The verdict is in. She is found insane,

724
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: she is narrowly escaped execution for the second time, and

725
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: she's transferred to the Arizona State Asylum for the mentally

726
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: Insane on April twenty fourth. I don't have details on

727
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: what people said. It just was enough to convince, you know,

728
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: I guess this would have been an insanity trial that

729
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: would have been Would that have been a judge for who?

730
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: That wouldn't have been a jury?

731
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,479
Speaker 2: Right? With what I'm hearing, they're not overturning her conviction, right,

732
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 2: They are now saying at this point two years later,

733
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: she now has a true medical illness issue that requires

734
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: more specialized medical care than what the prison can do,

735
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 2: and it sounds like they must convene some sort of panel,

736
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: if you will, that here's testimony, and then says, yes,

737
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: she does have mental issues and needs to go to

738
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: this other facility. So she still is under conviction. But

739
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: because now she is in this other facility and has

740
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 2: been deemed insane at that point in time, right before

741
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: her execution, the state cannot execute an insane person. So,

742
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: in essence, she has escaped the execution as a result

743
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: of her current medical situation. It's not her mental situation

744
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: at the time the crime was committed.

745
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, she is transferred to the Arizona State Asylum

746
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: for the mentally insaying. Okay, Paul, here we go. This

747
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: is Winnie's life over the next twelve years. Between nineteen

748
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: thirty nine and nineteen sixty two, she escapes from prison

749
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: seven times.

750
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: That's because she's at in a low level, you know,

751
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: custodial environment, you know, and she's smart enough and sane

752
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: enough to be able to figure out how she can

753
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: actually get out of this facility, you know. So I

754
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: bet she was feigning this insanity aspect, you know, in

755
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: order to avoid the death sentence.

756
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: Listen to this lady. In nineteen sixty two, she outpaid

757
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: this is the police for six and a half years.

758
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: She's out of custody for six and a half.

759
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: Years, Yes, six and a half years, from sixty two

760
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: until sixty eight. She is living under the name Marion Lane,

761
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: and she's in San Francisco. I mean, I don't mean

762
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: to laugh at this, because she did dismember somebody and

763
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: murder two people. But in sixty nine, Arizona medical experts say, okay,

764
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: she's saying, we don't want her anymore, and they turn

765
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: her back over to the state penitentiary in Florence. Is

766
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: this story over yet, no, sir, okay.

767
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: So she ultimately gets caught in San Francisco.

768
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: After six and a half years.

769
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's between sixty two and sixty eight or

770
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: sixty nine.

771
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: And then when they get her back in sixty nine,

772
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: they say, clearly this woman is sane enough to stay,

773
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, away and elude us for that long.

774
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: Stop smiling, Paul, Well, I'm now starting to wonder are

775
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: there any dismembered women in the Bay area and solve cases? Right?

776
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that. I mean, sometimes I say,

777
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: allowed with people, you know, there's no record of them

778
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: doing anything while they were on the lamb, But with

779
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: this case, I'm not quite sure. So then listen to this.

780
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: So she's back in prison from sixty nine. In the

781
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: end of the year nineteen seventy one, the governor of Arizona,

782
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: who is a guy named Jack Williams, signs a pardon

783
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: and she is free. He said, you can never tell

784
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: your story. That was her only stipulation.

785
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, who is bending the governor's ear? There must

786
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 2: be somebody pretty powerful that, for whatever reason, is within

787
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: Winny's you know circle, or as sympathetic to Winnie. You know,

788
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: that is bizarre.

789
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: She's sixty five when this happens, So I wonder if

790
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: he thinks she's not going to dismember that many people

791
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: at sixty five. I don't know what he was thinking.

792
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: Well, now now she's out in the public domain again.

793
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: Yep, so she's out. You know. I keep thinking people

794
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: like this are going to die quickly after she does not.

795
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: She dies in ninety eight at the age of ninety three.

796
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

797
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: She dies in her sleep, peacefully. But her story continues

798
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: because when she was on death row in thirty three,

799
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: she wrote her first and only confession. Real confession is

800
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: what she says happened. So now this is the last

801
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: This is the definitive confession. It was located and it's

802
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: now in the state archives in Arizona. So the confession

803
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: basically confirms the majority of what the prosecutor said during

804
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: the first trial. She was ashamed of her infidelity, and

805
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: she was frustrated by Anne because she said that Anne

806
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: was trying to get money out of Jack. I don't

807
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: know what's happening with Jack and these women. I don't

808
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: know what the relationship is. But in this confession, Winnie

809
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: says that Anne was Anne was always asking for money

810
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: from Jack and he was giving it to her. Whinnie

811
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: says that Anne would kind of taunt her about stuff,

812
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: and she became consumed by wild ideas. She said, I

813
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: knew my nerves were breaking. I could feel it. She

814
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: said she acted on impulse. She got the gun. She

815
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: drove over to Anne's on the first murder attempt. She writes,

816
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: I waited next door. I was trying to shoot through

817
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: the window. I started crying so hard. I turned and

818
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: went home. But then she tried again. About a week later,

819
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: maybe she tried again. On Friday, October sixteenth, she went there,

820
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: seemingly driven by psychosis, to Anne's duplex. This is according

821
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: to Winnie. She said, my brain was whirling. I was

822
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: so excited. I was panting for breath. Never did I

823
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: have the slightest dream of hurting Sammy. She simply never

824
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: entered my mind. I expected to get Anne stop those

825
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: taunts so I could sleep. Nothing more did I think

826
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: of I took the gun and a knife. How I

827
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: would do it, I was not sure. I hid in

828
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: the house next door. After they retired, I went to

829
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: the back door, laid the knife and my shoes outside

830
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: the door, then crept into the unlocked front door. That

831
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: insane desire, that power led me on and I started

832
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: for Anne. So she describes approaching the bedroom, retreating, falling

833
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: back asleep on the girl's couch. Finally, in the morning,

834
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: I crept past the bathroom door shot Anne. It was

835
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: a low shot, is what she called it. Sammy came

836
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: rushing out of the bathroom and easily disarmed Winnie. She said, Sammy,

837
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: I am crazy. I have lost my mind. Give me

838
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: that gun and I will blow my brains out right

839
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: here on this door. Sammy did not give her the

840
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: gun smartly, so Winnie ran outside to get the knife.

841
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: As I grabbed for the gun, I stabbed her in

842
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: the shoulder. The fight continued and Winnie got shot through

843
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: the hand. With Winnie getting shot through the hand until

844
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: Sammy was dead. Essentially, she dragged Sammy's body into the bathroom,

845
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: cleaned up the kitchen floor, went to the garage to

846
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: get the trunk. In the bedroom, she slid Anne from

847
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: the bed onto the trunk. Around nine or nine thirty,

848
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: she went to work, leaving Sammy on the bathroom floor.

849
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: She put the knife in the gun and the bloody

850
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: pajamas in Anne's locker at the clinic until the end

851
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: of the day. She fed the cat. She returned to

852
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: the duplex, she broke in through the bathroom window. At

853
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: that point, Samy's body was heavy and stiff. She took

854
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: two cheap knives from the kitchen and severed her body

855
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: into portions that she says I could not lift. I

856
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: was hours doing this, and then inch by inch pulling

857
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: the trunk back into the living room. That trunk weighed

858
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: four hundred and twenty pounds. Yet my maniacal condition gave

859
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: me superhuman strength, she said. She tried to destroy the

860
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: evidence of the duplex. She turned the hose on the

861
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: front porch, went into the house, got the blood soaked mattress,

862
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: and carried it over to the vacant lot at the

863
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: corner of Third and Pinchon, where I struck perhaps about

864
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: five matches onto it. Sunday morning the next day, at

865
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: her apartment, she divided the women's corpses between two trunks

866
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: she washed the gun, accidentally discharging it under the water,

867
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: and put it in the handbox. Toward the end of

868
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: her confession, she writes, from here on, I think most

869
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: everything has already been known. At the end of the letter,

870
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: Winnie forbids her attorney from ever divulging this information.

871
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 2: The end, I think things are adding up there. Okay,

872
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: I'd like to know more details when she says she

873
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 2: shot Anne, you know, I want to see does she actually,

874
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 2: in case she put the gun up against Anne's head

875
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: and pulled the trigger, because that's what the evidence shows.

876
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: The one thing that I kind of keyed in on

877
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 2: was the stabbing of Sammy and the left shoulder, which, yeah,

878
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: the autopsy isn't showing that. And I'm looking at you know,

879
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 2: Sammy's photos now yep, and she has a couple of

880
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: marks on her left shoulder.

881
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: Maybe they were nicks. Let me look at the autopsy

882
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: report to there's a superficial puncture, but that's in her neck.

883
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: You would think if he had noted that, wouldn't he

884
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: have noted a stab wound even if it was like

885
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: a nick.

886
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's routine. They need to record all the injuries,

887
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: you know, whether superficial or actually significant injuries during their autopsy.

888
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: But you know, fundamentally, that last confession seems to line

889
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: up best with the evidence. I didn't realize the vacant

890
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: lot where the mattress was found was so close that

891
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,479
Speaker 2: she could carry a mattress there. Which is you see

892
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: somebody carrying two mattresses.

893
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: It depends. I wonder if I mean, I can look

894
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: this up. I don't think mattresses in the nineteen thirties

895
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: are the kind of mattresses we think of now. I

896
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: don't think they're I mean this and these are twins.

897
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying sure. I don't know whether

898
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: that's possible or not, but I don't think they are

899
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: quite as I mean, I can't hardly lift up a

900
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: full size mattress on my own, but I don't think

901
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: they were like that.

902
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: So that's a good point. So her telling about the

903
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 2: the emotional turmoil that she's experienced, that sounds real to me.

904
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: Now she's putting blame on Anne. Anne is taunting her,

905
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: Anne is using her lover Jack for money. I think

906
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 2: that there's more of a jealousy aspect going on there,

907
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: that maybe she's suspecting that Anne and Jack were having

908
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 2: their own relationship, sexual relationship, and Winnie is jealous about that.

909
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's no talk about selfhilless or this other woman.

910
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: There's none of that. So ultimately, do you feel like

911
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: I think it's clear that she at least she had

912
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: some mental health struggles. But that's different than somebody who

913
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: is triggered and then works really hard to cover everything up,

914
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: which is what she did.

915
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think there is a mental health component.

916
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: It is does not arise up to the level of

917
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: legal insanity. In my opinion, I think she needs to

918
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 2: be held or needed to be held responsible for her crimes.

919
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: I do not believe that she's somebody that should should

920
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: have been subjected to the death penalty, life in prison. Sure,

921
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: the extent that she went through, I mean, this is

922
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 2: this is what's just stunning to me, is I mean

923
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 2: you you literally are cleaning up a double homicide, the

924
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: victims and crime scene and all, and shipping the victims

925
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: and the crime scene out to LA to pick them

926
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: up there. You know, that's just that's crazy from my perspective.

927
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: You know, that's just really I think it's just underscores.

928
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 2: Sometimes these offenders think too hard. That was when he's downfall.

929
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: You know, she didn't think about, oh, these bodies are

930
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 2: going to leak and they're going to smell and people

931
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 2: are going to notice. And that's ultimately at least you

932
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 2: had somebody who was observant enough at the LA train

933
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: station going hold on steamer trunks. That's a problem.

934
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: Would have worked if she had dumped both of those

935
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: she wanted Burton to do with, as trunks have just

936
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: floated and somebody would have discovered those bodies, both of

937
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: them floating in the Pacific Ocean.

938
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: It's possible that aspects whether the trunks themselves would have floated.

939
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 2: I think with Anne, I mean she's bloated inside the trunk.

940
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 2: So in essence, you have a balloon inside that trunk

941
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: at least for a period of time. You know, eventually

942
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 2: Anne is going to burst. Fundamentally, she's going to leak

943
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: that and so the buoyancy aspect may not be there.

944
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: And I don't know, you know what the buoyancy of

945
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: these trunks are. You know, do they sink naturally or

946
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: do they float? You know, that's that would be a

947
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:43,760
Speaker 2: hard thing to try to surmise as to the trunks themselves. Sammy.

948
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: You know, with no gases due to the dismemberment, that

949
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 2: trunk may have just floated and there's no way that

950
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 2: because of well, I actually can't say that because I've

951
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: got bodies again in that hellser case that were much

952
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: more dismembered than what we're seeing with Sammy. And they

953
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 2: were you know, put in multiple duffel bags way down

954
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 2: with walking pavers and stones, and they floated they came

955
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: back up, and that's how that case got got solved,

956
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 2: you know. But it depends on how far you go

957
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: out off the coast and if they do float, do

958
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 2: they wash up on shore or do they just go

959
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 2: out into the middle of the note of the ocean

960
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 2: and there never never land.

961
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll put a photo on social media of

962
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: this trunk. I think I've done that before. The trunk,

963
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: much like her trunk, looks imposing, it's not. It's really light.

964
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: The problem we had with it was the leather straps

965
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: had broken off of it, but it had wheels, little

966
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 1: tiny castor wheels, and it's tin in the wood that

967
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: is in there is so lightweight. I'm pretty sure this

968
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: would float no problem. And it's a huge trunk. It's math.

969
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean all of the equipment that I use in here, lights,

970
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: all of everything, it goes in that trunk, and it

971
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: fits perfectly in that trunk. So that's a two body

972
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: I would call that a two body trunk the one

973
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: I have, so it would have floated for sure. I mean,

974
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: these are meant even though they're big and sturdy and

975
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: they look like they take a beating, they're meant to

976
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: be carried around by a woman. Anybody can carry these.

977
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: I actually have a case with a body and a

978
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 2: steamer trunk.

979
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 1: You do.

980
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: I do had nothing to do with a train or

981
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: being thrown in the water. But it was a I

982
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,439
Speaker 2: won't go into the details because it's a really horrific crime,

983
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: but it was an elderly woman, you know, petite woman

984
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: who has put in this her own steamer trunk. I

985
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 2: had to deal with processing both the body as well

986
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 2: as the steamer trunk, and once the body was out,

987
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 2: that trunk was fairly light.

988
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's meant for being transported on ships

989
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: and everything else. So anyway, when I was reading about

990
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: this case, I was thinking, I cannot believe one person,

991
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: and I caught myself saying one woman could do this,

992
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 1: and then I thought, I mean this, she did it

993
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: and she's saying she did it with no help whatsoever.

994
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: So I thought that was really interesting. And again I

995
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: did get a little bit of a kick out of

996
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: you kept saying he he he as the offender, and

997
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: I just thought, what's he going to do when he

998
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: finds out this right starlet looking woman is the one

999
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: who does it. So anyway, we will for sure have

1000
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: another compelling case next week. It will not involve a

1001
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: trunk and I don't know about the female killer part

1002
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: of it, but I like bringing you stories, especially with

1003
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: the you know, we've dug into a lot of history stuff.

1004
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: There's there are things in history with this story that

1005
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, we were able to learn. So I was

1006
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: glad to be able to do that.

1007
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you introduced me to I guess what is

1008
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 2: a famous historical case. So thank you, Kate.

1009
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: And that you can use luminol the ingredient as a sedative.

1010
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: Who knew? Don't do it at home. We're not advocating

1011
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: for anything, but who knew? All Right, I'll see you

1012
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: next week.

1013
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

1014
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1015
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1016
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1017
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1018
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1019
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1020
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1021
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1022
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1023
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1024
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1025
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1026
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1027
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1028
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1029
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1030
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1031
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.