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Speaker 1: On Monday, Special Counsel Robert Mueller unsealed a guilty plea

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Speaker 1: by Trump campaign advisor George Papadopoulos, who's cooperating with Muller's

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Speaker 1: investigation into Passion possible Russian collusion during last year's presidential campaign.

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Speaker 1: This morning, Bloomberg News reported that among the unsealed documents

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Speaker 1: relating to Papadopolis is a reference to an email that

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Speaker 1: he sent to a Russian contact saying that the Trump

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Speaker 1: campaign had approved a meeting with members of Russian President

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin's office and the Russian Foreign Ministry. If true,

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Speaker 1: this would be the clearest contradiction clears the indication so

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Speaker 1: far that the campaign was at least attempting to coordinate

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Speaker 1: with the Russian government. Here to talk with us about

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Speaker 1: Mother's investigation and this latest revelation are Jed Sugarman, a

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Speaker 1: professor at Fordham University Law School, and Ryan Goodman, a

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Speaker 1: professor at un YU Law School who is the former

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel to the General Council of the Department of Defense.

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Speaker 1: Ryan tell us about um what we know about this

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Speaker 1: email that Papadopopolis sent when he is communicating with the Russians?

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Speaker 1: Right So the email, as reported by Bloomberg is um

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Speaker 1: quite important because it says at least Papadopolis is representing

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Speaker 1: to the Russians that he has the go ahead from

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Speaker 1: the Trump campaign to organize a meeting with Russian officials,

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Speaker 1: and then he specifically says that that would include the

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Speaker 1: campaign manager, who at the time is Paul Manafort. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: that starts to link things together. If indeed he was

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Speaker 1: genuinely representing a kind of a green light from the campaign,

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Speaker 1: that would be an important revelation in all of this.

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Speaker 1: Jed Manafort spokesman has a different interpretation of that, and

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Speaker 1: so does Clovis, who was the campaign part of the campaign.

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Speaker 1: They said that he had no authority to make those

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Speaker 1: kinds of agreements or and that there's no evidence that

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Speaker 1: that took place. But would it surprise you if there

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Speaker 1: was no evidence at this point? Because the FBI, according

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Speaker 1: to the Affidavid even says this affidavit is being submitted

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Speaker 1: for the limited purpose of establishing probable cause for a

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Speaker 1: criminal complaint. It does not set forth every fact learned

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Speaker 1: in the course of this investigation. So could it be

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Speaker 1: that Mueller is keeping some things close to the vest

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Speaker 1: i think it's clear that Mueller is keeping a lot

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Speaker 1: close to the vest. Let's keep in mind that what

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Speaker 1: this plea agreement does is it absolutely only sets forth

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Speaker 1: um some some details and acknowledges the existence of some

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Speaker 1: emails and only summarizes emails or even just notes what

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Speaker 1: the subject header of those emails is. We don't we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen as a matter of the public, what is

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Speaker 1: in this long chain of emails dating from March all

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Speaker 1: the way through June and July. UM. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: clear that the Papadopolis is cooperating with Mueller. I think

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Speaker 1: the best person to address how Papadopoulis got this wrote

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Speaker 1: an email about his approval is Papadopoulis himself, whether it's

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Speaker 1: in further emails or at some point he's going to

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Speaker 1: have um some testimony. Uh. And so that's what really

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Speaker 1: should be UM explosive and would have the Trump insiders

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Speaker 1: the most worried. Ryan. You know, the the cooperation that

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Speaker 1: Papadopoulis was doing seems to have started months before we

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Speaker 1: found out about it. What sorts of things might he

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Speaker 1: have been doing besides talking to to prosecutors. So um,

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Speaker 1: it is possible there's widespread speculation that Um, once he

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Speaker 1: turned and began to cooperate the prosecutors, that he might

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Speaker 1: very well have been uh worn a wire or in

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Speaker 1: or in other ways interacted with former Trump campaign officials

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Speaker 1: after that point, Um getting them to say things to

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Speaker 1: him UM that would then be used by Mueller's team.

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Speaker 1: And there is a long period of time from when

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Speaker 1: he is arrested until we know about it. So it's

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Speaker 1: in fact, there are a couple of months in there

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Speaker 1: where he was working with Mueller UM and that could

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Speaker 1: be obviously very important to the investigation. Jed the FBI

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Speaker 1: arrested Papadopolis at Dulles Airport and flipped him without any

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Speaker 1: leaks until they were ready to reveal it. So it's

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Speaker 1: so clear that Mueller's team knows exactly what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: So then what was the reason that they on the

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Speaker 1: same day that they announced the indictments of Mana Fort

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Speaker 1: and his associate, they unsealed this uh criminal complaint and

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Speaker 1: the plea agreement of Papadopolis. It was quite deliberate and

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Speaker 1: quite a professional move by a prosecutor. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a I think there's been a lot of writing and

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Speaker 1: speculation about how this timing worked as part of Mueller's strategy. UM, so,

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Speaker 1: first of all, to have the indictment and the arrest

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Speaker 1: of MANAFORTUM on the same day, this added context. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think part of what was going on was that

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Speaker 1: they deliberately wrote an indictment of Manafort UM and Rick

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Speaker 1: Gates that would focus on embezzlement and events that transpired

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Speaker 1: before the campaign, But they also had so much of

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Speaker 1: this information about collusion and conspiracy UH during the campaign

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Speaker 1: that the Papadopolis letter was dropped after that that essentially

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Speaker 1: UM isolated Manafort UH and would reveal to Manafort on

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Speaker 1: his arrest that Mueller had a huge amount of information

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Speaker 1: already about other criminal liability that Manafort would be facing.

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Speaker 1: He would read this Papadopolis plea agreement and recognize one

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Speaker 1: his own emails are are written throughout this plea agreement,

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Speaker 1: and that papadopoulis it's not an indictment, it's a plea deal,

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Speaker 1: where where Papadopolis is stipulating the truth of all these

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Speaker 1: allegations and has indicated he's going to cooperate. So all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, Manafort sees this and understands the gravity

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Speaker 1: um and his criminal liability. Here. We've been talking with

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Speaker 1: Jed Sugarman, a professor at Fordham University Law School, and

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Speaker 1: Ryan Goodman, a professor at n y U Law School,

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Speaker 1: about the latest developments in the investigation into possible Russian

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Speaker 1: collusion in last year's presidential campaign, including UH information that

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Speaker 1: was in the court papers that were unsealed on Monday.

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Speaker 1: George Papadopolis, a former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, apparently

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Speaker 1: sent an email to his Russian contact saying that the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign had approved a meeting with the Russian government

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Speaker 1: officials h a claim that goes farther to uh substantiate

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Speaker 1: if it is true substantiated claims that the campaign was

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Speaker 1: at least attempting to collude with Russia during the campaign. Jed,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about the fact that, Um, there's some

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Speaker 1: additional pressure on manifort that you can sort of discern

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Speaker 1: from the way that uh, from the way that the

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Speaker 1: Special counsel has released information showing that perhaps his emails

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Speaker 1: are things that they've uncovered between him and Papadopolis about

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Speaker 1: these sort of Russian meetings. Is it possible that there

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Speaker 1: are additional charges against Manafort that prosecutors are considering, but

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Speaker 1: that they haven't released yet. I think that's quite likely.

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Speaker 1: First of all, the reporting on the Papadopolis plea deal

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Speaker 1: identifies the high ranking official with a series of emails

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Speaker 1: to Papadopolis as Manafort. There there may be a reason,

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Speaker 1: a particular reason, why Muller is being strategic about which

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Speaker 1: charges to file against Manafort. Now, the concern is that

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Speaker 1: Trump may be pardoning, may have may have already promised

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Speaker 1: a pardon, or may indeed pardon people like Manafort and

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Speaker 1: perhaps more. This has been floated in the media by

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Speaker 1: various UM supporters of the Trump administration. And keep in

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Speaker 1: mind that a presidential pardon only affects federal crimes, so

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Speaker 1: if there if they proceed UM, there could always be

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Speaker 1: state prosecutions, but in some states like New York, do

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Speaker 1: not allow a second prosecution if one has already been

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Speaker 1: prosecuted on the federal level. So I think Mueller is

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Speaker 1: quite aware of this. He's already coordinated with New York

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Speaker 1: officials UM and as has been reported, so he may

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Speaker 1: be selective in which charges to file in order to

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Speaker 1: make sure that there's still the threat of state prosecution

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Speaker 1: against Manafort. For all kinds of crimes like conspiracy or trafficking,

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Speaker 1: trafficking and stolen goods, um conspiracy to engage in hacking.

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of the strategy here, Ryan, I

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Speaker 1: want to take a look at Sam Clovis, who's the

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Speaker 1: campaign's national code, was the campaigns national co chairman. He

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Speaker 1: also supervised Papadopolis, and according to NBC, he was questioned

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Speaker 1: last week by Mueller's team and testified before a grand jury.

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Speaker 1: Do you see any connection between the announcement about Papadopolis

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Speaker 1: and Clovis going before a grand jury. Yes, I think so,

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Speaker 1: especially because they would want to have Clovis there before

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Speaker 1: he is aware of what is in this plea agreement,

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Speaker 1: and just to tie two pieces of this together. Um,

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Speaker 1: what Bloomberg reported in terms of this you know email

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Speaker 1: that had not been reported on by anybody else where.

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Speaker 1: Papadopolis says to the Russians, I have approval for a

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Speaker 1: very high level team on my side to meet with

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Speaker 1: the Russians. That's July four, And in the plea agreement

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Speaker 1: is the email from Clovis to Papadopoulos saying I would

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Speaker 1: encourage you quote unquote, I would encourage you and then

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Speaker 1: another and another foreign policy adviser to the campaign quote

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Speaker 1: to make the trip if it is feasible. So you

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Speaker 1: put those two pieces together. Clovis himself is in legal jeopardy,

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Speaker 1: and I think the timing of that now seems to

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Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. So Jed, you know, everybody

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Speaker 1: was focusing on Monday on perhaps man of for it

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Speaker 1: had refused to cooperate and that's why he you know,

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Speaker 1: he was only indicted for these crimes that were not

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Speaker 1: about the actual collusion, and perhaps the focus would turn

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Speaker 1: to Flynn. Does this make it look more like the

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Speaker 1: focus here is really on Manafort and his and his

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Speaker 1: associate Gates or is it? Does this still look like

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Speaker 1: it might be kind of more wide ranging than just him. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I think the Papadopoulos document shows how wide ranging this is.

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Speaker 1: I just want to support Ryan's interpretation as I think

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Speaker 1: exactly on here and think about how many different officials

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Speaker 1: are in this timeline who are not named but UM.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Manafort and Clovis, there are some other

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Speaker 1: officials who are on these email chains. All of this

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Speaker 1: is a signal that this is a very broad investigation

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Speaker 1: and that the Manafort UM indictment is is the first

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Speaker 1: of many, UM, and I think the effort is to

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Speaker 1: UM was to make us was to identify to the

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Speaker 1: public how much they had get maniform at first. One

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Speaker 1: piece of speculation is why hasn't Flynn been indicted yet?

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Speaker 1: Maybe Flynn is actually cooperating UM in the same way

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Speaker 1: that there are indications that Clovis may now be cooperating

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Speaker 1: with prosecutors. So that's that's the bread here, Ryan, I

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Speaker 1: just want to turn for one moment to the terrorist

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Speaker 1: attack in New York. President Trump has called for tougher

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Speaker 1: vetting of immigrants coming into this country. Governor Cuomo of

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Speaker 1: New York said that this man was radicalized after he

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Speaker 1: came to this country. What's your opinion of tougher vetting,

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Speaker 1: as you know, preventing terrorist attacks? So, um, that's a

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Speaker 1: great question. I don't know what the President could conceivably

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Speaker 1: he in mind that would be an effective vetting procedure. UM,

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Speaker 1: when as a person were like this particular individual what

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Speaker 1: we currently know radicalized once they get into the United States.

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Speaker 1: To me, it is an indication that he is pointing

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Speaker 1: back towards his statements as uh, you know, late as

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Speaker 1: January of a much greater ban on people. Um and

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Speaker 1: who knows, maybe he's even thinking of making allusions to

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Speaker 1: abandoned people on the basis of their ethnicity or other

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Speaker 1: categories of countries. I can't understand what that betting procedure

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Speaker 1: would really be other than something much more radical than

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Speaker 1: any of his three executives and ended right here. Thank

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Speaker 1: you to Ryan Goodman of n y U Law School

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Speaker 1: and Jed Sugarman Afford of University Law School for being here.

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Speaker 1: On Bloomberg Law, coming up, we'll be talking about excell

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Speaker 1: and settling pollution violations in Texas and Louisiana for about

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Speaker 1: three million dollars in a case brought by the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: That's straight ahead on Bloomberg Law. This is Bloomberg