1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Toad and this 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. I am 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: here with my producer, Mike. Mike, thank you so much 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: for being here. 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Bridget. I'm glad to be here 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: in the wake of that FEMA alert that happened earlier 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: this week. 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: I know, as far as I can tell, I think 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: we all survived this week's FEMA emergency alert without activating 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: any kind of deadly vaccine related illnesses. In case folks 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: missed it, conspiracy theorists said that the government was using 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: the emergency alerts that we all got on our phones 14 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: this week to trigger bloodborn slash, maybe bat related question 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: mark illnesses in people who were vaccinated. 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think those were the conspiracy theories. I was 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: pretty impressed by how quickly they came together, because I 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: didn't hear that alert was going to happen until like 19 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: a day or two before it did. Maybe the conspiracy 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: people are like really plugged into when FEMA is scheduling 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: these alerts, But I feel like they really pulled this 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: conspiracy together in like forty eight hours. 23 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: Oh, you think conspiracy theorists who gather online are not 24 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: plugged into what FEMA is doing. They don't. They're not 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: like super on that. I'm sure that's on their radar. Listen. 26 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to do a little bit of 27 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: like brief banter on this on the pod, but part 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: of me was sort of like, let's wait until after 29 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: the alert, you know, just in case, let's just be 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: let's just cover all of our bases. Let's let's plan 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: to do this after after we make it through the alerts. 32 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: There was a tiny part of me that was like, 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't it just be funny if we did all start 34 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: like bleeding from our eyeballs and turn into zombie bats. 35 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: It would serve us right for doubting them in the 36 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: first place. In case it's not clear. Obviously, those conspiracy 37 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: theories were completely base. Despite the fact that people reported 38 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: that they were planning on turning off their power, turning 39 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: off their phones to protect themselves from what ended up 40 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: not happening. Nobody got sick. It was all just a 41 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. But you know what's not a conspiracy theory. 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: It's the way that men infiltrated the Gracehopper Celebration this year. 43 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: So the Gracehopper Celebration, named after the historic computer programmer Gracehopper, 44 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: is a big tech conference that is one of the 45 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: largest gatherings of women and non binary folks in tech worldwide. 46 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: It's organized by the nonprofit anitab dot Org. Quick side note, 47 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: I was actually just a guest on Anita Bee's inaugural 48 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: podcast episode, which you all check out. We will throw 49 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: the link in the show notes. And I was actually 50 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: meant to attend the Gracehopper event down in Orlando, Florida 51 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: this year, but I had a scheduling issue. It's kind 52 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: of a big deal, like all the big tech companies 53 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: are there, Apple, Amazon, and it's a great place for 54 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: folks who are looking for jobs, like it's full of 55 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: job opportunities and networking. But at this year's conference, men 56 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: showed up in as on LinkedIn. Anitab dot Org, a 57 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: nonprofit that runs the conference, said there was a quote 58 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: increase in participation of self identifying males at this year's event. Now, 59 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: Anita Bee did say that they believe allyship from men 60 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: is really important, and they also noted that they cannot 61 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: ban men from attending due to federal non discrimination protections 62 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: in the United States. Now to be super clear, there 63 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: are definitely men out there who want to support allyship 64 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: and want to be champions of women, Like it's not 65 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: unheard of for men to attend this event, and I 66 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: think that there are probably some men who turned up 67 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: at this event who wanted to do exactly that and 68 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: that's why they were there. But it sounds like a 69 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: lot of other men were not there to champion women 70 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: and to be good allies to women. It sounds like 71 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: they were there to take up space, to take opportunities 72 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: from women, and also to troll and gaslight us while 73 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: doing it. Colin White, chief impact officer at anitab dot org, 74 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: said some men even lied about their gender identity, They 75 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: lied about being non buy to get a chance to 76 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: network at the conference. So it just sounds like the 77 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: vibes were not great at this year's event. The conference 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: has historically been a really joyous celebration and a way 79 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: for people who are not often centered in technology to 80 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: really take up space and connect and have community with 81 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: each other. Like I've heard people say that this is 82 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: an event that they look forward to their entire year, 83 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 1: Like it is a it is a real vibe, generally speaking, 84 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: but it sounds like this time around, these men kind 85 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: of rumined it for everybody. The attendees at this year's 86 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: event described a feeling uncomfortable with the chaotic scenes like 87 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: men cutting women in line for the job fair, people 88 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: running and rushing around, and long lines. As one attendee 89 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: described it, the Kens have taken over. Barbieland Bo Young, 90 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: Anita b dot Org's advisory president, commented on how this 91 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: impacted the overall vibe of the event. 92 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 3: I want to address all that I've been hearing over 93 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: these days at GHC. This is my third GHC, my 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: first just part of staff, and it's always been joyous. 95 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: In the past, it has always felt safe and loving 96 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: and embracing. And this year I must admit I didn't 97 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: feel this way, and I know that many of you 98 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: felt the same. Many of you are feeling unsafe physically 99 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: and psychologically, and you're feeling unheard. I want you to 100 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: know that we're taking this so personally, and I'm taking 101 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: it personally. I do the work I do to create 102 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: a world where my two girls can thrive. We try 103 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 3: to create a safe space, and this week we saw 104 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: the outside world creep in. This makes me angry, and 105 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 3: it makes me sad, but mostly it makes you want 106 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 3: to fight. We're not fighting simply because of the concerns 107 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 3: you express, but because that's our mission. Our mission is 108 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: to uplift and celebrate women and non binary technologists. This week, 109 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 3: we hope to do just this. We prepared and we 110 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: did our best, but it was not enough. I can't 111 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: guarantee you that we'll have solutions tomorrow, but I can 112 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 3: promise you that we'll be working on solutions, and we 113 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: won't do it in a bubble. We've heard your recommendations 114 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: and many of them are great, and we'll make sure 115 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: that we're holding ourselves the truth of our mission and 116 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 3: need to be has always stepped up to the challenge, 117 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: and I promised you that we're ready to step up 118 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: to this new challenge, and we'll do so in community. 119 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: I want to thank you all for speaking up, for listening, 120 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: and I really hope to see you tomorrow. Thank you all. 121 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: Bye. I do think that part of this is just 122 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: a reflection of the landscape for tech jobs right now, 123 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: like the landscape is pretty bleak thanks to the waves 124 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: of layoffs and the tech sector. But as bleak as 125 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: that landscape is, it is even worse for people who 126 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: are marginalized, like women and non binary people. Sixty nine 127 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: point two percent of all tech layoffs, according to the 128 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: Women Tech Network, were women, on top of the industry's 129 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: existing gender imbalance, where women made up just a third 130 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: of those working in STEM jobs as of twenty twenty one. 131 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: This is according to the National Center for Science and 132 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: Engineering Statistics. So as bad as things are for women, 133 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: and it's pretty bad, it is made that much worse 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: to have men pulling stuff like this in a space 135 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: that is supposed to be for us. And I guess 136 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: part of me feels like if you were a man 137 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: who misrepresented yourself or cut the line in front of 138 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: a woman at a job fare or networking event at 139 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: an event that is for women and non binary people, 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: is this somebody that you would want to have on 141 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: your team, like the kind of man who would do this? 142 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that the people on your team are 143 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: going to feel safe and supported working on a team 144 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: with somebody like this. If had I been a recruiter 145 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: at this event, I would have refused to speak to 146 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: anybody who behaved in this way, And I do think it. 147 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that these people might think 148 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: they're getting a leg up, but in reality, I think 149 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: that they're making themselves look really bad and perhaps like 150 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: somebody that you would not want to have on your team. 151 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. For sure, people want to be on teams with 152 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: people who are emotionally literate and concerned with issues of 153 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: privilege and representation. And at least people that I know, 154 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: that's what the sort of teams they want to be on. 155 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: It sounds really crummy. 156 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: And at the very least people want to be on 157 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: teams with people who don't shove others and like cut 158 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: the line, like nobody wants that person on their team. 159 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Like these people aren't trying to get jobs 160 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: on like the Wolf of Wall Street, right, They're competing 161 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: for tech jobs where they're going to be like filing 162 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: Jira tickets with other tech workers. You know, it's not 163 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 2: like a shoving in line kind of industry. 164 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: So obviously I agree with you, but I was shocked 165 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: to hear that not everybody in tech feels the same way. 166 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: There was a post un Blind, which a forum for 167 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: tech workers to post online anonymously, that basically cheered on 168 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: the men who behaved this way at the conference, saying 169 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: that having tech events solely for women is sexist and 170 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: that these men were doing a good job by showing 171 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: up there, taking up space and doing what had to 172 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: be done. The post reads quote, are we still all 173 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: about equality? I saw this year that a lot of 174 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: men showed up to the Grace Hopper conference and women 175 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: had to compete slash weight in line with those men 176 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: to talk to recruiters. As a man, I completely support 177 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: those guys. They allow non binary people to enter the conference, 178 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: then why not just represent as non binary. Let's be honest. 179 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: There is no need for conferences just for women, because 180 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: if it was the opposite, just for men, then it 181 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: would be sexist. Just because you are a woman doesn't 182 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: give you the right to talk to big firm recruiters. 183 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: Guys work just as hard and they don't get that chance. 184 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: So wow. If you are the person who wrote this 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 1: post on Blind, or you know the who wrote this 186 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: post on Blind, just know that I've officially added you 187 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: to our list of official enemies of the show. Whoever 188 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: you are, you're probably not listening to this podcast of 189 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: help uplifting marginalized people in technology. But if you are 190 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: you're on my list guy? 191 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel you're right that they're probably not listening 192 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:19,119 Speaker 2: to our podcast. 193 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: And I think it really comes down to something that 194 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: we've talked about a lot on the show, which is 195 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: this really bad knee jerk reaction to things like diversity 196 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: initiatives or DEI or you know, suing grants for marginalized people. 197 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: This false notion that we're all starting from an equal 198 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: playing field, so any opportunity needs to be like equal 199 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: otherwise it's not fair. That really assumes that we're all 200 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: working under the same conditions, that we have an equal 201 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: playing field, which as those stats about how dismal things 202 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: are for women and on binary people in the tech industry, 203 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: we know that's not true. And I think we're going 204 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: to continue seeing this kind of backlass to anything that's 205 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: for us, whether that us is black folks or women, 206 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: or trans folks or queer folks. And I think it 207 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: also shows just how fragile are spaces and opportunities are. 208 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: We historically get less and even when we try to 209 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: carve out something for us, you know, something for ourselves, 210 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: they will come for that too. So it shows that 211 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: our spaces are very fragile. But also why we need 212 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: those spaces for ourselves more than ever. 213 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: You know, it was interesting that earlier on in this 214 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: segment you were giving a nod to like allyship and 215 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: like some men are allies and that's great, and like 216 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: that is great. You know, allies are good. You know, 217 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm a man. I like to think of myself as 218 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: a good ally. But like these guys who show up 219 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: at this conference, it's pathetic in so many ways. And 220 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: I would guess that many of them would probably think 221 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: of themselves as like men of science, or men of numbers, 222 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: or you know, some sort of like objective science y 223 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: thinking folks. Right, they work in tech. But those statistics 224 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 2: you cited about the underrepresentation of women in tech, I 225 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: don't even think you cited statistics about like median income. 226 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: There's one hundred other statistics that one could easily look 227 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: at to see like, yeah, there are pretty big disparities 228 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: in not just who works in tech, but like all 229 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: up and down every sector of the workforce. For these 230 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: guys to just like bury their head in the sand 231 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: and ignore that, it really betrays how either uninformed or 232 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: like wilfully ignorant they are of the true situation. Of 233 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: I don't know gender in the workplace or whatever you 234 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: want to say it. 235 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure they. These guys sell at the kind 236 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: of guys who have described projects that they work on 237 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: as data driven or data informed, unless that data is 238 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: data about gender bias intec, in which case it's all equal. 239 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: But data doesn't matter. 240 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, I we should do like 241 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 2: a survey or something to get it there. I'm gonna 242 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: think about this one, because you're absolutely right. I bet 243 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: all of them, you know, all day long, talk about 244 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: how they're making data driven decisions. They're following the data, 245 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: they're following the science, except for this huge area where 246 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: it concerns like them getting paid. Then they're not interested 247 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: in the data. They're not interested in the science. They're 248 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: just interested in like getting theirs at the exclusion of 249 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: women exactly. 250 00:13:48,960 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 4: Let's say, quick break at our back. 251 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's move on to a slightly less infuriating story, 252 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: which is maybe Instagram is not ruinting national parks after all. So, 253 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: as you'll probably know, I am a avid hiker and 254 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: I think of myself as an outdoors woman, you know, 255 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: like I'm you know, I have pooped in holes, I 256 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: have taken intense hikes. Well, I'm comfortable calling myself a 257 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: outdoors someone. I'm gonna I'm gonna own that label for myself. 258 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you get to decide if you're an outdoors. 259 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: You looked like you were about to object to that 260 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: self proclaimed title. 261 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: No, no, you you've earned it. 262 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: Okay. So I did a lot more outdoor activities, especially 263 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty when the pandemic was shutting down indoor 264 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: spaces together. So obviously it is important to be good 265 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: stewards of outdoor spaces that we visit, like packing out 266 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: your litter, staying on trail, all of that kind of stuff. 267 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty, a growing chorus of advocates we're 268 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: really urging people not to geotag their specific locations on 269 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: social media platforms like Instagram when they posted pictures. The 270 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: thinking there was that if somebody posts a really beautiful 271 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: looking spot on social media, other people will see that 272 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: spot and want to visit that specific spot or that 273 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: specific park and contribute to over visitation. I heard horror 274 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: stories in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one of already 275 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: popular national park locations basically being overrun with crowds to 276 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: the point where they were almost not usable. Did you 277 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: hear those stories? 278 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember that. It was a big It 279 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: was big news during the pandemic because people couldn't fly anywhere, 280 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: and so people were flocking to national parks, which, on 281 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: one hand is great that people are taking advantage of 282 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: this incredible treasure that we have. But it was a 283 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: big problem too because it was just too many people, right, Like, 284 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: the parks can only handle so many people to there 285 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: be huge lines of cars. People were sitting in them 286 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: running their engines for like hours waiting to get into 287 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: the park, and then like crowd into a space to 288 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: look at some buffalo or cliffs or something. 289 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: Well, now, a new report might be casting some doubt 290 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: on just how much Instagram impacts outdoor land use. OPB 291 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: reports at a study in land economics called the Instagram 292 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: Effect is social media influencing visitation to public land? Suggests 293 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: that social media might not be a huge driver of 294 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: visitation after all. So for this study, Ashley Low McKenzie 295 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: and her colleagues used eighteen years of visitation data and 296 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: compared it with geotagged Instagram content from fifty popular Oregon 297 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: state parks. McKenzie summarizes, there were four parks that went 298 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: really viral on Instagram, and the really engaged in content, 299 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: not just the general uploading activity people sharing stuff, but 300 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: those that really got a lot of engagement had an 301 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: impact on the growth that was seen at those parks. 302 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: So viral Instagram photos of four Oregon parks, smith Rock, 303 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: Silver Falls, Acola, and Oswald West were linked to growth 304 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: rates of about four percent, So some impact, but maybe 305 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: not the huge impact that we were all sort of 306 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: summarizing what's going to happen when we were telling folks 307 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: not to geotag their locations on Instagram. Another wrinkle of 308 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: this that I actually didn't know is that national parks 309 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: now require folks who are monetizing content that they get 310 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: at parks to buy a special photography permit, which kind 311 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: of makes sense. I do sort of wonder how much 312 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: of this is like discomfort around influencers and like influencing 313 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: as a profession, as a thing that people do. Sometimes 314 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: when I hear people have intense reactions to crowds and 315 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: people taking photos, it feels like what they're actually annoyed 316 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: at is why are there so many women taking photos 317 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: in this National park? So whenever I'm talking about people's 318 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: concerns around influencers, I always want to be sure that 319 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: we're not falling into a trap of just sexism and 320 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: hating on something that young that is perceived as a 321 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: young woman activity or pursuit. This is obviously anecdotal, but 322 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: when I was gearing up to go to Archest National 323 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: Park in Utah, so many people were like, oh, it's 324 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: overrun with influencers now, like influencers have ruined it. Like 325 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: good luck trying to do anything or go anywhere because 326 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: it's full of influencers. It's so crowded. And so I 327 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: showed up thinking it was going to be a nightmare 328 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: that we were gonna be I was gonna be waiting 329 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: forever and ever. But they had just started doing this 330 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: timed pass entry, and it actually wasn't crowded at all. 331 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: I think I waited in the car for like maybe 332 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, and it wasn't any crowded than any other 333 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: National park that I'd ever been to. 334 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe that was because they started implementing the 335 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: timed entry, you know. 336 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a big fan of the timed entry, 337 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: and folks might have seen a similar conversation happening around 338 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: leaf peeping and fall leaves and sort of how the 339 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: perception that, like, young women want to do their fall 340 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: photo shoot in front of pretty leaves, and they're going 341 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: to like pretty small towns and wreaking havoc with they're 342 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: Starbucks cups and they're over the any boots. 343 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 2: They must be stopped, these young women taking some photo 344 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: in front of leaves. 345 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: Well, if you're in Pomfret, Vermont, that's exactly what you think. 346 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: So in this small town in Vermont, the town board 347 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: agreed to block anyone but locals from using a specific 348 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: dirt road that has very pretty rural leaf views during 349 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: peak leaf peeping season from the twenty third of September 350 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: to the fifteenth of October. It does actually seem like 351 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: the town had legitimate issues with people who were coming 352 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: to just look at leaves and take pictures of leaves. 353 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: The town has dubbed these people ticktokers, but like instead 354 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: of the way that TikTok is actually spelled, it's like 355 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: tick space tck e rs. 356 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: These clock stops clock people. 357 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: So basically they said that these people have been coming 358 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: to look at the leaves, but when doing so, they 359 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: sometimes block the access for emergency vehicles with their own cars. 360 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: They their cars get stuck in dirt or mud because 361 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: it's a dirt road and not everybody can drive on 362 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: dirt or mud. Well, or they leave trash. They they 363 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: hot people's private fences. The town actually started working with 364 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: influencers to get people with big platforms to spread the 365 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: word that folks who are visiting this town in Vermont 366 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: need to respect the property and the people that live there. 367 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: Well that ends on a nice note. 368 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of like that. It's not just like 369 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: when I first read the article, I was like, Oh, 370 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: they're just like demonizing pretty girls who like fall, which, like, 371 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: what did we ever do to anybody? No, I'm just kidding, uh, 372 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: But No, I like that they're actually acknowledging that these 373 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: people are coming because they want to appreciate the land, 374 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: and then using the platforms that these influencers have to 375 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: spread the word about how you like, what you need 376 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: to be considerate of if you are genuinely trying to 377 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: be a good steward of this land, Like don't trapes 378 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: all over it, don't cause a nuisance, don't be annoying 379 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: to the people who actually live there. I do think 380 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: that as you were talking about the rise of people 381 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: exploring the vast natural beauty of the domestic United States, 382 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: I do think that that is great. But I think 383 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: that sometimes social media can influence people to do that 384 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: in a way that does not always prioritize what is 385 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: the most important thing always, which is safety, like your 386 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: safety and the safety of others, and recipect for the land, 387 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: and so yeah, I mean it's one of the reasons 388 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: why I don't really use geo tags on Instagram of 389 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: outdoor spots that I visit. Like sometimes I'll tag something 390 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: in a general sense, like I'll tag Joshua Tree National 391 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: Park or Sdandoah National Park as opposed to tagging a 392 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: specific loop or arch or mountain. And you know, I 393 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: think I'm going to continue that practice even if it's 394 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: not related to environmental impacts like the study suggests, because 395 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I just think that I worry that 396 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: posting a really cool specific spot will this encourage people 397 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: to try to recreate like that same itinerary that I did. 398 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: I have certainly felt that, or somebody posts a really 399 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: cool looking image of some outdoor spot on social media 400 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I gotta go there and take that picture. 401 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: But I don't I don't want to contribute to that. Like, 402 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: I don't think that, especially when it comes to the outdoors, 403 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: I don't think it's good to encourage folks to see 404 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 1: the outdoors as this commodity where they can just recreate 405 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: itineraries themselves, like ordering on a menu. You know, I 406 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: think that social media can sometimes prompt us into losing 407 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: the thing that is so good about exploring the outdoors 408 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: and nature, right, the aspect of fascination or discovery that 409 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: comes with outdoor travel experiences. I know that I have 410 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: felt it before, and I just don't want to contribute 411 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: to it in other folks. 412 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it. And yeah, 413 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: why why would you want to like geotag your exact spot? Like, 414 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: if you find some really wonderful, beautiful spot that you 415 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: feel a personal connection to, why would you want to 416 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: like broadcast that to everyone to be able to recreate 417 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: and to know right like that that's yours. It's between 418 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: you and the spot. Let other people find their own spot. 419 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, part of the fun of exploring the outdoors 420 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: is finding your own spot. And like the work that 421 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: it takes to find it is like part of the experience, 422 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: and I want to encourage that, not just like here's 423 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: the place to go for a photo, everybody just like 424 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: get in, take your photo, and get out. I feel 425 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: like it's really easy to miss what is so special 426 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: about spending time outdoors when you do that totally. 427 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: And I think there's also a connection to the point 428 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: you were making about that town in Vermont encouraging influencers 429 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: to post messages and encourage their followers to like respect 430 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: the land and respect property and respect the people who 431 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 2: live there. Like those are not values that are unique 432 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: to Vermont in the fall time. Those feel like pretty 433 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 2: universal values, right, like respecting the where you are, respecting 434 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: the people who live there. And I think there is 435 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: something about the commodification of places that can get really 436 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: promoted via Instagram photos that discourages that kind of respect 437 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: for a place. 438 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: I completely agree. I mean, I've seen it, you know, 439 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: I've seen those spots where the Instagram photo is so beautiful, 440 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: but then in reality, it's like there's a line of 441 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: people standing off trail to get waiting to get that 442 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: one photo. And that doesn't feel good to me. I 443 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: just don't think that we should be treating our natural 444 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: resources that are so special and beautiful and unique and 445 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: aspiring like their cardboard cutouts of a celebrity to get 446 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: a picture with. 447 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and some spots are so unbelievably beautiful that we 448 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: can't help it, right, Like you mentioned Arches National Park, 449 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: and what is it? The delicate Arch is that iconic 450 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: arch that we've all seen a million times in photos, 451 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: and yet everybody's gonna want a photo of that. But 452 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: hopefully along the way hiking up to it, people will 453 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 2: see the ten thousand other beautiful vistas and formations along 454 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: the way and develop some kind of affinity for them. 455 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess I'm getting a little flowery here. 456 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: No, I know what you mean. And that's the thing, 457 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: like having been having hiked the delicate Arch. The delicate 458 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: arch is beautiful and you should get I got a 459 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: photo with it. People should get photos with it. I'm 460 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: not being like, oh, if you take a selfie with 461 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: a delicate arch, you are an asshole. That is not 462 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is I think 463 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: that just the one iconic photo or the particularly beautiful vista, 464 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: or like the iconic viral locations on social media that 465 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: we saw, particularly in twenty twenty. I think that that 466 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: can discourage people from enjoying the hike to the arch 467 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: and like really ating the beauty of the twenty different 468 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: amazing arches that are not necessarily iconic on Instagram, but 469 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: that are beautiful in their own way. And I think 470 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: it can like lessen it can encourage people to not 471 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: actually appreciate what is exciting and fun and fascinating about 472 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: being outside, which is all of it. It's not just 473 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: the thing that you recognize from Instagram. You know. It 474 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: reminds me in Mexico. I mean, I'm I get taken 475 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: by this too. When I was in Mexico, there's this 476 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: hot spring that I was like, oh my god, I've 477 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: seen it on Instagram. It looks amazing. I cannot wait 478 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: to do it. And when I went, it has these 479 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: like outdoor heated pools formed on the side of a 480 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: rock formation above a vista. It is so gorgeous on Instagram. 481 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: When I actually went, I was like, oh my god, 482 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: are these the you know, rock formation hot hot springs? 483 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: They're like yeah. I got in and it was really cool. 484 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: But the actual most fun part is the part that 485 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: you almost never see on social media. It's these underground 486 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: caves that have hot walter where you're standing in hot 487 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: water and it's got hot water pouring from above. Those 488 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: were that was the most fun part by a wide margin. 489 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't photograph all on Instagram, and you almost never 490 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: see them on Instagram. So I got the like picture 491 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: of me and the iconic thing that everybody recognizes. But 492 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: the thing that I spent the most time in and 493 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: that I appreciated the most was the thing I had 494 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: never seen on Instagram. And like, I guess that's my 495 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: point is that sometimes social media can trick you into 496 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: thinking that the thing that looks the best on Instagram, 497 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: that pops the most on social is the most fun, 498 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: when in reality, that's not necessarily the most fun. It 499 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: just looks the coolest. Okay, so let's move on. I 500 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: have to give a little bit of a trigger warning 501 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: for this next segment. It deals with non consensual deep 502 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: fakes and sextortion. So we've talked a bit about the 503 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: threat presented by non consensual deep to fake images before 504 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: and now a group of young girls in all Mendrajeo, 505 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: Spain say they received fabricated nude images of themselves that 506 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: were created using an easily accessible undressing app power by 507 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, which really raises a lot of the questions 508 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: that we talk about on this show around the scope 509 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: and harms that such apps can cause. According to an 510 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: ABC report, over thirty victims between the ages of twelve 511 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: and fourteen years of age have been identified so far, 512 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: and the police in Spain so they've had reports of 513 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: this happening elsewhere in the country too. ABC reported that 514 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: the culprits are a group of young male perpetrators who 515 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: were also miners, who police say knew most of their victims. Basically, 516 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: these guys found photos of their victims on social media 517 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: and uploaded them to a newdify app, which is an 518 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: app that allows people to submit images of anybody and 519 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: then generate AI created nude depictions of them. The perpetrators 520 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: created a group chat on WhatsApp and Telegram to disseminate 521 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: these non consensual, fabricated nude images, and the fake images 522 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: were used to extort at least one victim on Instagram 523 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: for real nude images or money. So pretty awful behavior 524 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: from these boys who were targeting these young girls. 525 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like pretty gross but then when you 526 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: got to the part about the extortion for money or 527 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: newt images that it took like a super gross turn. 528 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and remember, just because these images are faked using 529 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: AI does not mean that social media platforms don't have 530 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: a responsibility to treat them just like they would any 531 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: other kind of threatening child sexual abuse material. WhatsApp spokesperson said, 532 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: we treat this situation the same as any kind of 533 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material we become aware of on our platform. 534 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: We would ban those involved and report them to the 535 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So it gets worse. 536 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: ABC reached out to the people who created this app, 537 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: and what they got back is really telling. Basically, the 538 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: folks who created this new Toifi app basically just say 539 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: that it's all a big joke. The team behind the 540 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: app said that their main reason for creating this type 541 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: of service was to make people laugh processing their own 542 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: photos and laughing together by processing each other's photos and 543 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: by laughing on them. We want to show people that 544 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: they do not need to be ashamed of nudity, especially 545 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: if it was made by neural networks. So ha, just 546 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: a big joke. Oh, you're a miner who is being 547 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: extorted with AI created digital non consensual deep fakes of yourself. Oh, 548 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: it's meant to be a joke that is lessening the 549 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: shame of your nudity. Uh, I don't think so. 550 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so either. 551 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: When ABC asked the people who made this app what 552 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: kind of safeguards they put in place to avoid people 553 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: generating this kind of material, particularly of children, the makers 554 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: of the app said that if somebody tried to upload 555 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: an image of a miner twice, then they were blocked 556 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: from the app, which, yikes, what a terrible policy. Two 557 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: strikes for creating child sexual abuse material. But even beyond that, 558 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: if anyone gets two goes at uploading an image of 559 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: a miner to create you know, inappropriate images of that person. 560 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: If they get two chances to do that and they 561 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: then work in a network like these perpetrators are accused 562 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: of doing, that is plenty of room for them to 563 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: do a lot of damage like these perpetrators did. 564 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: Well. It's also not even an answer because like, how 565 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: does their app know if an image is child sexual 566 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: abuse material? Are they using AI to detect it? If 567 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: that's the case, why do they give them two chances? 568 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: Or are they depending on somebody to report it as 569 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: child sexual abuse material. If that's the case, then it's 570 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: not really any sort of safeguard at all. That's like 571 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: not even an answer. That's right up there with we 572 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: created this app to make people laugh. 573 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know who's not laughing the twelve year old 574 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: girls who have been targeted by this. So there was 575 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: a paid version of this app which worked with payment 576 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: processors that you've heard of, like Visa and PayPal, but 577 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: those payment processors pulled their services from the app after 578 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: this ABC report came out. What's really sad to me 579 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: is that these girls obviously felt a lot of shame 580 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: or pressure to stay silent about being targeted in this way. 581 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: One of the parents of a victim posted a plea 582 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: on Instagram saying here we are united to stop this now. 583 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: Using other people's images to do this barbarity and spread 584 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: them is a very serious crime. Girls, don't be afraid 585 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: to report such acts. Tell your mothers. After the parents 586 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: of one of the victims posted this to Instagram, more 587 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: victims came forward, so Professor Klaermaglenn, a law professor at 588 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: Durham University in the UK and an expert on violence 589 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: against women and girls, says that platforms are amplifying this 590 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: kind of neudified content. She says this is a direct 591 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: abuse of women and girls by technology that is specifically 592 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: designed to abuse women and girls. Google returns newdified websites 593 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: at the top of its ranking, enabling and legitimizing these behaviors. 594 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: There is no legitimate reason to use nonutifle by apps 595 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: without consent. They should be de ranked by search platforms 596 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: such as Google. Mike kind of to your point about 597 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: the people who made this app their like non answer, Google, 598 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,959 Speaker 1: in response to this kind of kind of gave the 599 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: same old song and dance about how they really care 600 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: about amplifying the best content blah blah blah, and how 601 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: they're working to keep this kind of junk off their platform. 602 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: But honestly they need to do better now. We don't 603 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: need to hear platitudes. The group of girls who have 604 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: been targeted by this kind of behavior like these platitudes 605 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: probably mean nothing to them. This is not a faraway 606 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: harm that is posed to happen in the future down 607 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,479 Speaker 1: the line. It is happening now. These girls are living, walking, 608 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: breathing proof of it, and platforms like Google need to 609 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: do better now. 610 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so curious what Google actually said in response, 611 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 2: because I just typed Newdify into Google and the result 612 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: is like the Newdify app inviting me to upload an 613 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: image and you know undress whoever. Uh, so they've like 614 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: obviously done nothing. 615 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: A Google spokesperson responded by saying, quote, like any search engine, 616 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: Google index is content that exists on the web, but 617 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: we actively design our ranking systems to avoid shocking people 618 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: with unexpected, harmful or explicit content. We also have well 619 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: developed protections to help people impacted by involuntary fake pornography. 620 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: People can request the removal of pages about them that 621 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: include this content. They added that as this space and 622 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: technology evolves quote, they are actively working to add more 623 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: safeguards to help protect people based on systems we've built 624 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: for other types of non consensual explicit imagery. None of 625 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: that meet like tell that to the victims. Tell the 626 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: victims that, oh, after you've already been extorted by these images, 627 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: you can have them. You can submit and request to 628 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: have them removed after the fact. Don't worry once your 629 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: friends have seen it, once it's been put passed around 630 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: on a WhatsApp group and it's already really impacted your 631 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: young life at an impressiable time, impressionable time for you. 632 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: Don't worry. You can just request us to remove it, 633 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: and we are working actively to add more safeguards to 634 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: help protect women like you. Like it just means nothing. 635 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 2: Is there a date on that statement from them? 636 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: There is not. The piece was published October second. 637 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: So that was three weeks ago. Excuse me, it was 638 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 2: three days ago. As of today, you type newdified into 639 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: Google and it gives you a whole wealth of apps 640 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 2: that will do this for you for free, like top 641 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: ten free apps that will do this for you, roundups, 642 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: reviews of apps. They're just like doing it. They've obviously 643 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 2: done nothing, So like Google actively doing something according to them, 644 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: means like Google doing nothing. 645 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I wouldn't say they're doing nothing. In fact, 646 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: they're enabling and legitimizing these kinds of apps and their 647 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: use on social media. So yeah, Google, this is their 648 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: platitudes are not enough. Like I'm enraged. This is enraging. 649 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: Google needs to do more. The threat is here today. 650 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: The threat is being experienced by real women and girls today. 651 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 1: Google needs to act. I don't want to hear more 652 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: platitudes about how they're building better tools than YadA YadA YadA. 653 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: That means nothing to me unless it is paired with 654 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: actual meaningful action. 655 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like, I don't know how many more Atlantic 656 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: articles we all need to read about how broken Google 657 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 2: search is, but like, it definitely is, but apparently this 658 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 2: one area is like not broken at all. It's like thriving. 659 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: Oh, if you want to get a non scammy answer 660 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: to your your basic question on Google, that's not an ad. 661 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: Good luck. If you want to see a non consensual 662 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: image of a minor, we got you. 663 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: So. 664 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: Kind of to that point. There was a new report 665 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: in the Washing Post about online sextortion, which is on 666 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: the rise. This is a very troubling, heartbreaking story. This 667 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: kind of sextortion is especially targeting young men and boys. 668 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: The report says that the number of sextortion cases targeting 669 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: young people has exploded in the last couple of years, 670 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: with teen boys being the specific targets. This is from 671 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: Lauren Coffrin, executive director of the Exploited Children Division at 672 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. They're using shame, embarrassment, 673 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: and fear, and they're tapping into that Coaufrin said they're 674 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: exploiting children's worst nightmares. Basically, how it works is that 675 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: someone will pose as another young person, getting to know 676 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: the victim, flirting with them, and then pressuring the victim 677 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: and descending nude images that specifically include their face. Then, 678 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: once they have those images, the perpetrator turns around and 679 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: demands money from the target, threatening to send those images 680 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: to their contacts, their friends and family if they don't 681 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: send it. This is sadly happening more and more. The 682 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has receive more 683 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: than ten thousand tips of financial sextortion of miners, primarily boys, 684 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. By the end of July twenty 685 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: twenty three, they had already received more than twelve thousand, 686 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: five hundred reports, with more continuing to pour in. What's 687 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: even more troubling is the impact. The repercussions of the 688 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: abuse are devastating. At least a dozen boys died by 689 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: suicide in twenty twenty two after they were blackmailed. So, 690 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: like a lot of sexual violence, a big part of 691 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: how these cases work is shame. The victims feel ashamed, 692 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: they don't report it, and then the perpetrators can just 693 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: move on without any consequences and continue to target others. 694 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: Kids are, sadly often finding themselves navigating this more or 695 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: less on their own. They may feel afraid or ashamed 696 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: to involve a guardian once they're targeted. The Washington Post 697 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: spoke to Emily Mudler, program director from the Family Online 698 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: Safety Institute, which emphasized that while parents should set rules 699 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: and boundaries for technology use for kids, regulations must come 700 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: with a caveat that if your kid finds themselves in 701 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: real trouble, they can come to you as a guardian 702 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: for help. Mulder says, you don't want it to be 703 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: a case for your kids are so fearful that they 704 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: broke the rules that they don't want to tell their parents. 705 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,280 Speaker 1: So young boys are particularly vulnerable to being targeted. Samir Hinduja, 706 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: co director for the Cyber Bullying Research Center and professor 707 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: of criminology at Florida Atlantic University, says the center receives 708 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: an incredibly disproportionate number of health requests from male victims. 709 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: Presuming that sexting is a precursor to sextortion, it is 710 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: possible that females may send nuds. More So, in the 711 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: context of a romantic relationship, whereas males may do so 712 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: more casually and experimentally. This fact makes males more of 713 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: an easy target. The article on the post had some 714 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: really heartbreaking accounts from real young people who dealt with 715 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: this in their families. They include one teen's text to 716 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: his parents after he set nude images over Instagram and 717 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: the perpetrator asked for three hundred dollars. The victim says 718 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: things to his parents as he's confessing what's going on. 719 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: He says things like, I'm so so sorry, I messed up, 720 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: I'm so stupid. I wish you had a better son. 721 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: And reading those text messages that he frantically sent to 722 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: his parents for help, like in the midst of a 723 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: spiral from this really broke my heart. And in that instance, 724 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: the perpetrators actually did make good on their threat. They 725 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: sent nude images of this minor boy to his parents' 726 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: cell phones. The parents didn't really know what to do 727 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: because you know, their child is being extorted financially, but 728 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: also they now have a nude image of a minor 729 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: on their cell phones, cell phones that they use for work. 730 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: So the parents were like, we don't know what to do. 731 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: They called the police, and the police basically could not 732 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: offer them any real help. They then reported the account 733 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: who was extorting their son to Instagram, but the count 734 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: remained active and kept messaging them and threatening to release 735 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: these images more widely. This in action by authorities and 736 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: tech companies is another big part of the problem. This 737 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: particular boy's parents said, Instagram needs to own a partial 738 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: responsibility for this. We hold our son accountable. He made 739 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: a bad choice. We're not saying it's Instagram's fault, but 740 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: I still feel like they should care more about trying 741 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: to protect these kids. And I agree, I hard hard agree. 742 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, they are making plenty of money. They should have 743 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: humans monitoring that report feature, and they should block an 744 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 2: account that is reported for sex storting a minor. 745 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Something else that makes this apparently difficult to deal 746 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: with is that many of the perpetrators are based outside 747 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: of the United States, a lot of them in Western 748 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: African countries, but they're targeting youth in the United States, 749 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: which makes tracking them down and bringing them to justice 750 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: that much more difficult. It's also just realistically like a 751 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: very difficult and complex thing for parents and guardians to 752 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: navigate with their kids, Like, I'm sure somebody listening is 753 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: just like, well, this is why young people just shouldn't 754 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: have iPhones or shouldn't have social media, or I know 755 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: that as somebody without kids, I always say things like this, like, 756 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: when I have a child, they're never gonna be around screens. 757 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: It's just gonna be books and wooden toys. And then 758 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: watch when I have a kid how quickly that changes. 759 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: But you know, it's just not realistic to in twenty 760 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: twenty three have expect a parent to tell a teenager, 761 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: like a fifteen sixteen year old, that they can't have 762 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: a phone, that they can't have social media when all 763 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: the other kids in their grade have that right, And 764 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: the reality is is that kids do need to learn 765 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: to navigate these online spaces safely, right, and so like 766 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: just saying you don't, like, okay, if this is going 767 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: to be a threat, you aren't going to be on 768 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: social media or have an iPhone or whatever, particularly when 769 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: your kid is in that weird in between stage of 770 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: like fifteen, sixteen seventeen, where you're not a child, but 771 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: you're not an adult, and you're like away from your 772 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: guardians for several hours a day at school, maybe you 773 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: have a job. It's just very complicated, both as a 774 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: parent or a guardian, trying to navigate the Internet and 775 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: social media and all of the promise and peril and 776 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: threats and community that it's offered there. For young people, 777 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: it's just a lot, Like it's a huge expectation that 778 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: I think when you have these threats that are so real, 779 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: it makes it that much more difficult. 780 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine being a fifteen year old boy 781 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three. I can't imagine being the parent 782 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 2: of a fifteen year old boy in twenty twenty three. 783 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: It's got to be so difficult, so complicated. 784 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what really breaks my heart about all this 785 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: is that exploring sex and sexuality is normal and healthy 786 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: for young people. Young people should be able to do 787 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: that in ways that are safe and age appropriate and 788 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: that don't have them like, don't have their natural curiosity 789 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: or exploration being weaponized against them. Like it breaks my 790 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: heart that these kids, the text messages of the young 791 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: man who was confessing to his parents that he had 792 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: sent these images online. He should be able to have 793 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: a healthy and safe and age appropriate exploration of what 794 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: sexuality is as he's as he's aging without worrying that 795 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: it's going to be exploited and weaponized in such a 796 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: cruel way. And so it just breaks my heart that 797 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: kids aren't getting something that I think is like a healthy, 798 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: normal part of growing up for all of us. 799 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting that the article says 800 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 2: that this is like a rapidly growing problem, particularly for boys. 801 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 2: Like we don't. We don't spend a whole lot of 802 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 2: time talking about problems that disproportionately affect the boys on 803 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 2: this show. But for some reason, this one like hurts 804 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 2: and it feels like important more. 805 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into. 806 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 2: It and talking about the biggest boy of them all, 807 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 2: Elon Musk. What's Elon done now? 808 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: Well, Elon Musk has removed all link texts from Twitter 809 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: when you post links. So now when you post a 810 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: link to a news article or any kind of article, 811 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,839 Speaker 1: the only thing that comes up is a picture from 812 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: that article, and then you click the picture to take 813 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: you to the article. It's awful, if you've seen it, 814 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: it's awful. It's hostile to news media and factfinders and 815 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: a healthy media ecosystem, which obviously has got to be 816 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:32,800 Speaker 1: part of the point. 817 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 2: Right, Oh my god, it's so stupid. It's so this 818 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 2: is like a niche example, but I'm going to give it. 819 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 2: I you know, I'm a scientist. I publish scientific articles 820 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 2: and like scientific journals, and some of them, increasingly many 821 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 2: of them require you to submit like a cover image 822 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 2: to go along with it. And you know, sometimes your 823 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 2: article has like a cool graph or something that is 824 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 2: like a useful cover image, but like that's not really 825 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 2: what they want. So most of the time what I 826 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 2: do is I'll go to like texels dot com or 827 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 2: some sort of like free stock image service to find 828 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 2: a stock image to upload with it. This image has 829 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 2: nothing to do with the goddamn story that like the 830 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 2: article is about. It is like tangentially related. Most of 831 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 2: mine are like someone holding a cell phone or something, right, 832 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 2: because it's like, oh, mobile health. The idea that he's 833 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 2: going to strip the headline and only show the image 834 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,919 Speaker 2: is like, let's focus on the least informative thing we can. Yeah, 835 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 2: I guess, just to like add to the sense of 836 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 2: confusion and lack of coherence that is the order of 837 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 2: the day on Twitter these days. 838 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: Well, people are using that to troll elon they're posting 839 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: articles that use his image, and they're tweeting things because 840 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: you can't see any text, so it's just an image 841 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: of Elon Musk, and they're tweeting things like Elon Musk 842 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: found dead or breaking police have found human remains and 843 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: evidence of cannibalism, and Elon Musk's la home that he 844 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: sold in twenty twenty two, because it's just an image, 845 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: and who knows what the article says, Like, who's gonna 846 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: click the article to find out what it says. So yeah, 847 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: chaos abounds on Twitter. 848 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 2: That's hilarious. But also he probably loves that because it's 849 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 2: attention for him. He loves the attention. That's why he 850 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 2: spent forty four billion dollars so that people could like 851 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 2: make little jokes about him and post his photo. 852 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 1: Well, you want to know what else Elon Musk has done? Now? 853 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 2: I guess I don't have to tell you. No, no, 854 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 2: tell me. I want to know what's Elon continued to do? 855 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: Now, Well, you might actually like this one. He got 856 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: hit with the defamation lawsuit. Huffington Post reports that Ben Brody, 857 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: a twenty two year old Jewish man from California, filed 858 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,720 Speaker 1: a lawsuit against Elon Musk after he and his family 859 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: were forced to flee their homes for their own safety 860 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 1: after content when you'd harassment and threats, after Musk promoted 861 00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: a baseless and dangerous conspiracy that Brody was a federal 862 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: agent involved in a neo Nazi group. So Brody is 863 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: being represented by attorney Mark Bankston, who previously represented two 864 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: of the Sandy Hook parents who ya might remember won 865 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: forty five million dollars in damages against conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, 866 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 1: after Jones spent years falsely claiming with the twenty twelve 867 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: school shooting that left twenty kids and six adults dead 868 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: never happened, that was a false flag, their kids were 869 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: at crisis actors whatever, So Mark Bankston, attorney says, and 870 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: yet another example of Elon Musk's serial pattern of slander, 871 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 1: he falsely told the world that Ben Brody participated in 872 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: a violent street brawl on behalf of a neo Nazi 873 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: extremist group. Brody is seeking more than a million dollars 874 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: in damages from Musk, and honestly, Brody, we hope you 875 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 1: get it. 876 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 2: He should ask for more. That's like nothing to this guy. 877 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: That's like the change in his cushions, his couch cushions 878 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: for him. So I do have a little bit of 879 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: good tech news for you, bike. You ready to hear it? 880 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll take some good news. 881 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: So good news. New York City became the first public 882 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,479 Speaker 1: health system in the United States to offer abortion care 883 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: via telehealth. NYC residents can access medication abortion services over 884 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: the phone or via video services like Zoom up to 885 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: ten weeks of pregnancy. The service Virtual Express Care is 886 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: offered seven days a week from nine am to nine pm. 887 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: Patients must attest that they're in New York City and 888 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: will take the medication while they're in New York City 889 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,760 Speaker 1: or receive the medication at a New York City address. 890 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: So a big part of abortion is access, like people 891 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: not being able to get to clinics or get the 892 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: care that they need. So abortion by mail or telehealth 893 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: abortion is a great way to expand access. So I 894 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: don't say a lot of good things about Eric Adams, 895 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: the Mayor of New York, but this one I like. 896 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the probably the first really good thing 897 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 2: I've heard about Eric Adams. So I'll give it to 898 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 2: him on this one. Good job let's not get crazy. 899 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 2: I feel like maybe he didn't know, Like maybe they 900 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 2: snucked it. Yeah, but that is great, Like telehealth is 901 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 2: the future, it's what people want. People love it. The 902 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 2: federal government really opened up access to telehealth during the 903 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:19,439 Speaker 2: pandemic and people loved it. We're accessing care in new 904 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 2: ways that were like convenient and that lowered costs for everyone. 905 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 2: It was like such a win win and it's nice 906 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 2: to see it expanding, particularly for the super important area 907 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 2: of abortion access. 908 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have all this technology. It is making our 909 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: lives harder and more harmful in all kinds of ways. 910 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: Why not make it easier and better in a few ways. 911 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: I like it. I like to see it. 912 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. 913 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: So the last few weeks, I have been invited to 914 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,319 Speaker 1: come do talks and lectures and panels at universities and conferences. 915 00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. If you are listening and you have asked 916 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,360 Speaker 1: me to come out and speak to your group or 917 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 1: your conference or your college, thank you. And if you 918 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: are listening and you're like that is something that I 919 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: would like, get in touch with me. You can email 920 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: me at hello at tangoti dot com And I would 921 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,360 Speaker 1: love to come to your college, your campus your panel, 922 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,359 Speaker 1: your workplace, whatever. Hit me up. 923 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you should definitely do it. Bridget is a great speaker. 924 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,800 Speaker 2: She's not one of these podcasts hosts. It's going to 925 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 2: phone it in. She's gonna come, she's gonna she's gonna 926 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,959 Speaker 2: prepare some remarks, she's gonna host the panel. You should 927 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 2: definitely invite Bridget to come speak at your campus. 928 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: I want to speak at your campus. I want to 929 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: moderate your panel. I want to host her event. I 930 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,439 Speaker 1: do it all. I love meeting people. I might seem 931 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,480 Speaker 1: awkward on the podcast, but I swear people enjoy my 932 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: company in person. Hit me up, Mike, thank you so 933 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:49,720 Speaker 1: much for being here. 934 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 2: Brigitt, thank you for having me. It was great to 935 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 2: be back. I love doing the show with you. Thank 936 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 2: you for giving me the opportunity. 937 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,240 Speaker 1: And thanks to all of you for listening. As always. 938 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 1: If you want to support the sh and find ad 939 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: free content, check us out our Patreon at patreon dot com. 940 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,879 Speaker 1: Slash Tangody no pressure, but you can find us there 941 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: and we'll see you on the internet. If you're looking 942 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,600 Speaker 1: for ways to support the show, check out our March 943 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,479 Speaker 1: store at tegoty dot com. Slash store. Got a story 944 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,400 Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to 945 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,760 Speaker 1: say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tegody 946 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode 947 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the 948 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: Internet was created by me bridget Tood. It's a production 949 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan 950 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,600 Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer 951 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm 952 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,479 Speaker 1: your host, bridget Tood. If you want to help us grow, 953 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,760 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 954 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or 955 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.