Speaker 1: Citizen Chef has a production of My Heart Radio. Hello everyone.
Speaker 1: You know, I can't believe it's already fall. And with
Speaker 1: the season's change, we're also wrapping up season two of
Speaker 1: Citizen Chef. You know, it's been an exciting summer and
Speaker 1: we've covered a lot of topics and whether it is
Speaker 1: as foundational as how the USDA works are as current
Speaker 1: and as exciting as the history making increase in SNAP funding,
Speaker 1: as vital as recognized in the impact of black restaurant tourism.
Speaker 1: Chefs are as totally cool as considering the future of
Speaker 1: cannabis in our restaurants, and that obviously just scratched the surface.
Speaker 1: But I didn't want to close out this season by
Speaker 1: focusing again on the big picture. This year, we try
Speaker 1: to make sure our conversations were wide reaching, and while
Speaker 1: we always start with food, we definitely don't end there.
Speaker 1: What we eat affix our health, affix our environment, affects
Speaker 1: our economy and has a history to that affects that
Speaker 1: we understand ourselves in our country. But today we're gonna
Speaker 1: focus on the true cost of food now. Just as
Speaker 1: an an example, UH farmers in Iowa UH use a
Speaker 1: tons of night grates on their fields and UH those
Speaker 1: night rates leach out into the Mississippi, they head downstream,
Speaker 1: and they create a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
Speaker 1: And so what impact does the farmer in Iowa have
Speaker 1: on fishing communities in the gulf. Does it have on
Speaker 1: fish reproduction in the gulf and the effects of that
Speaker 1: has on the overall economy. None of that is factored
Speaker 1: into the price of corn in Iowa, the price of
Speaker 1: soy in Iowa. So in fact, in July, the Rockefello
Speaker 1: Foundation released the report that estimated that the true cost
Speaker 1: of food in the United States to be more than
Speaker 1: three trillion dollars as opposed to the one trillion dollars
Speaker 1: that Americans spending. And that is because they factored in
Speaker 1: things like the environmental UH impacts and health impacts of
Speaker 1: our food habits, which cost us more in long term.
Speaker 1: So we're closing out the season to look at true
Speaker 1: cost accounting. You know, there's a growing movement to include
Speaker 1: true cost accounting r r t c A with considering
Speaker 1: the cost of food, which can be far more than
Speaker 1: what you pay at the market. And our guest today
Speaker 1: is quite familiar with that report and cited it in
Speaker 1: her article for civilis entitled count Accounting for the True
Speaker 1: Cost of Food Change the Global food System. So let
Speaker 1: me introduce journalists Lisa Held who specializes in writing about
Speaker 1: food and agriculture and even host her own podcast called
Speaker 1: The Farm Report. So I'm thrilled to have Lisa because
Speaker 1: she is an expert in the field, and she's also
Speaker 1: truly skilled at breaking down topics as big as t
Speaker 1: c A for us to understand. Lisa is gonna help
Speaker 1: explain a bit more about what t c A is
Speaker 1: and how it impacts our current food system and how
Speaker 1: it could improve future systems in a way that is
Speaker 1: equitable and more sustainable. So welcome Lisa, thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1: When I read the article that you wrote in Civil
Speaker 1: e its Um, I was really intrigued because this is
Speaker 1: something that obviously is someone who's involved in the food system,
Speaker 1: not only participating the food system, producing food, eating food,
Speaker 1: buying food from my home, but also very active in
Speaker 1: policy work around the food system. Uh. And so this
Speaker 1: is something that a lot of us have you know,
Speaker 1: known for a while and talked about for a while. Um,
Speaker 1: we all know that poor diet. Um. Can you know
Speaker 1: worth I think spending somewhere in the neighborhood billion dollars
Speaker 1: a year a year in healthcare costs associated with poor diet.
Speaker 1: Um who pays for that? And so when I read
Speaker 1: the article, I was like, finally, someone really you know,
Speaker 1: putting um some accounting practices around us so we can
Speaker 1: maybe figure out, you know, the impact, the actual financial
Speaker 1: impact that the way we're producing food has not only
Speaker 1: UM to our pockets, but also to the environment. Uh
Speaker 1: and and to municipalities who are stuck holding the bill
Speaker 1: to clean this up. I love that you brought up
Speaker 1: this idea that it's not really anything new, right, Like
Speaker 1: I talked to Lauren Baker, one of the editors of
Speaker 1: this book True Cost Accounting, in my article about that fact,
Speaker 1: because she was talking about the fact that she had
Speaker 1: been asking these kinds of questions for her entire career,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe for decades, but there hadn't been a
Speaker 1: name for it or kind of a systemic way to
Speaker 1: think about this. So, you know, at its most basic level,
Speaker 1: true cost accounting involves measuring all the impacts of a
Speaker 1: given food from production at the farm all the way
Speaker 1: through to consumption UM. And those would be impacts on
Speaker 1: people society, the environment, and you know we've been doing that.
Speaker 1: But the idea here is we need an actual framework
Speaker 1: in a way to calculate those costs um each one,
Speaker 1: you know, come up with a number. Sometimes sometimes it's
Speaker 1: more qualitative because it can be tricky, like when you
Speaker 1: think about how do you calculate something like animal welfare
Speaker 1: or equity. Sometimes it's it's tricky to come up with
Speaker 1: a number, you know. So I'll just share with you
Speaker 1: very quickly a little story right out in front of
Speaker 1: my house. Here there is a little triangle, UM. And
Speaker 1: the triangle is a collection area for water um as
Speaker 1: heavy rains. And then that is a little area that
Speaker 1: collects water before it goes into a pond. Now, this
Speaker 1: little pond that we have here, UM, for the twenty
Speaker 1: years that I've been here, usually around July, it there's
Speaker 1: algae blooms. It turns green. It's kind of nasty. And
Speaker 1: of course the reason this is happening is because there's
Speaker 1: potato farms all around here. They're dumping tons of nitrates
Speaker 1: on the on the farms. That runoff goes into the
Speaker 1: pond algae bloom, right. And so the town engineer has
Speaker 1: got a grant from the state to spend about fifty
Speaker 1: you know, thousand dollars to take this collection area and
Speaker 1: put a a trap in it to collect water. But
Speaker 1: in doing that, you know, to cover his ass, he's
Speaker 1: got to put a six foot fence around it and
Speaker 1: cut down all the trees. And this is in front
Speaker 1: of my house, and so and and so all the
Speaker 1: neighbors we live around here. We got together to go
Speaker 1: to a an emergency meeting of the parks department because
Speaker 1: the parks department has jurisdiction over this UM and it
Speaker 1: was very much like parks and recreation UM and UH.
Speaker 1: And at one point it came up like what role
Speaker 1: was the farmer play in this? And the answer was
Speaker 1: Clean Water Act zero. He has no responsibility for cleaning
Speaker 1: this and so UM I thought would be great to
Speaker 1: get you and on the podcast to talk about this
Speaker 1: idea of true cost accounting and who is going to
Speaker 1: bear the cost of of of a lot of these
Speaker 1: issues that that we're talking about. So so welcome aboard.
Speaker 1: So in just in large terms of viewers can understand
Speaker 1: what is true cost accounting. You know, the bigger idea
Speaker 1: is trying to come up with these frameworks that can
Speaker 1: allow us to make those calculations, and then the next
Speaker 1: step is how and where do we apply those calculations,
Speaker 1: you know, in order to either move policy or get
Speaker 1: corporations that are externalizing some of their costs to internalize
Speaker 1: them and actually pay. Like, for instance, these farms you're
Speaker 1: talking about that are polluting the town, like you know,
Speaker 1: maybe they should you know, be paying those costs of
Speaker 1: cleaning it up or have to create a collection area
Speaker 1: on their farm that will filter the water through you know,
Speaker 1: bios whales and things like that before it goes into
Speaker 1: this pond or this other collection area. Sure, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: So give us an example. I think you start following
Speaker 1: a tomato from Florida to Canada. Is that was getting
Speaker 1: that right? That was an example that that Lauren had
Speaker 1: of um of research she had done in the past um,
Speaker 1: which is definitely um something that that kind of works.
Speaker 1: I think a better example that that people might be
Speaker 1: able to kind of relate to is if you think
Speaker 1: about the cost of like a fast food value meal. Right,
Speaker 1: it's super cheap. We right, Like that's one of the
Speaker 1: amazing things that that's like the selling points, like you
Speaker 1: can get this whole meal. It's really the price tag
Speaker 1: is low, right, But so then you know, a true
Speaker 1: cost accounting analysis would look at things like, all right,
Speaker 1: what kind of pollution did the production of the meat cause? Right?
Speaker 1: What we're workers paid on the farms, the slaughterhouse, in
Speaker 1: the restaurant. Um. And then and not only what were
Speaker 1: they paid, but if they were paid low wages, how
Speaker 1: were they then, um accessing food? Were they getting snap
Speaker 1: benefits that you know, that's a that's a cost, right?
Speaker 1: What is in the cost of that happy meal? There
Speaker 1: is there is a cost associated of the you know,
Speaker 1: and yes it's it's dirt cheap, scratch your head, going,
Speaker 1: how can they possibly do this? Um? And so? But
Speaker 1: but there are some of those are captured in the
Speaker 1: price of that, but obviously not not well, the wages
Speaker 1: they are being paid are being captured in that price, right.
Speaker 1: So so if there but if it workers being paid
Speaker 1: eleven dollars an hour and then has to um access
Speaker 1: snap benefits for example, to pay to feed their families,
Speaker 1: which you know is necessary, um, then that cost is
Speaker 1: not captured in there, which is a cost that you
Speaker 1: know taxpayers ultimately pay. I'm glad, I'm glad you went there.
Speaker 1: That was exactly where I was hoping you were going
Speaker 1: with this because and again I wanted the listener to
Speaker 1: really understand and um, the cost of of of cheap
Speaker 1: wages or low wages. Yes, it's going to keep food
Speaker 1: costs down, but somewhere along the line, someone's gonna have
Speaker 1: to access some sort of benefits to actually feed their family.
Speaker 1: And so who's paying for that? Taxpayers are paying for that,
Speaker 1: and and so essentially what we're doing and this is
Speaker 1: it's It's tricky though, because you don't want to raise
Speaker 1: the price of that meal, especially at the happy meal.
Speaker 1: People want low income are that with their with their
Speaker 1: using to feed their family, and it's very inexpensive, and
Speaker 1: so raising the price of that um would have adverse
Speaker 1: effects to that community. But on the same hand, if
Speaker 1: you paid those people more, they could probably afford the
Speaker 1: few dollars extra for the happy meal. You know, That's
Speaker 1: actually probably one of the biggest things people ask me
Speaker 1: whenever I talk about like, um, you know, producing better food,
Speaker 1: healthier food, um, you know, organic food, anything, it's always well,
Speaker 1: what about people that can't afford it? Which is such
Speaker 1: an important question, right, And there's a need for people
Speaker 1: to simply get food on the table to feed their families.
Speaker 1: And and I think you and I both both agree
Speaker 1: on that for sure. Um, But you know, I think
Speaker 1: that I think true class accounting can kind of help
Speaker 1: us entangle this because the way that I think about
Speaker 1: it is the price of the food if you think
Speaker 1: about it in a big picture sense, like the price
Speaker 1: of the food should be about what it costs to
Speaker 1: produce that food, plus some sort of reasonable markup to
Speaker 1: pay the people who are providing it, right, the restaurant,
Speaker 1: the workers, the UM farmer. And then the flip the
Speaker 1: other side, the question of who can afford that food
Speaker 1: is about food access, and that's about low wages, access
Speaker 1: to affordable healthcare, UM, systemic inequality, wealth gap. So there
Speaker 1: are there are places that those that side of things
Speaker 1: can be fixed, um, that that can then enable people
Speaker 1: to access healthier food. And and also, like I mean,
Speaker 1: the the labor question is crazy because I mean, I
Speaker 1: think if you're if you're talking about a small restaurant,
Speaker 1: this isn't true. And I think you know from operating
Speaker 1: restaurants that labor costs are very real. Um, difficult thing
Speaker 1: for restaurant owners to deal with, right and um, but
Speaker 1: you know when we're talking about these big companies that
Speaker 1: pay insanely low wages and produce really cheap food. You know, there,
Speaker 1: I have this example that I would love to share.
Speaker 1: So there was a report that came out. Ox Fan
Speaker 1: put it out last fall um that they did an
Speaker 1: analysis and they showed that Jeff Bezos could have personally
Speaker 1: paid each of Amazon's eight dred and seventies six thousand
Speaker 1: employees a one off a hundred and five thousand dollar
Speaker 1: bonus with the wealthy accumulated between March and August alone,
Speaker 1: and still be as wealthy as he was at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic. So that's that's the kind of
Speaker 1: money that exists within that system already. And so then
Speaker 1: you know the same in the same month. A month later,
Speaker 1: the federal government put out a report showing the Amazon
Speaker 1: was among the top twenty five employers with workers enrolled
Speaker 1: in SNAP in six out of nine states. So literally
Speaker 1: taxpayers are making up the wages Amazon isn't paying while
Speaker 1: celebrating how cheap the groceries are. Right, So they're in that. Like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of examples like that where it is
Speaker 1: actually pretty straightforward and clear. And then there are other
Speaker 1: examples where it's not and it is complicated and you
Speaker 1: don't want right, and then he turns around it writes
Speaker 1: an hundred million dollar check to Girl Central Kitchen to
Speaker 1: make it all back right exactly. And it's like, well
Speaker 1: that which is good and great, like they're doing amazing work.
Speaker 1: But it's also like these things can be fixed at
Speaker 1: the source. Um, you know. Yeah. And so we talked
Speaker 1: about farmers and the farmers that are puty, but what
Speaker 1: about large food companies that are that are just creating
Speaker 1: really unhealthy food at really low prices, and are do
Speaker 1: you see uh them contributing to healthcare costs somehow? Where
Speaker 1: if you're going to produce food that's unhealthy, um, it's cheap. Uh,
Speaker 1: but yet we we know it's it's it's harmful. Um
Speaker 1: do we see? I mean how where where are you
Speaker 1: on a soda tacks? Is that? Do you think that's
Speaker 1: the way to actually deal with this some you know,
Speaker 1: some unhealthy choices. Are you prefer a carrot? You know,
Speaker 1: in in like a double bus program? Right? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: I'm a journalist, so I'm not gonna like say what
Speaker 1: I think should be done, but but I can, but
Speaker 1: I can talk about the evidence that I that I
Speaker 1: can and you know, it's a really it's a really
Speaker 1: good question because you know that Rockefeller report that just
Speaker 1: came out, UM, that showed the costs of the food
Speaker 1: systemer about three trillion when you calculate in all the
Speaker 1: additional costs instead of the one trillion that we pay.
Speaker 1: The biggest external costs was healthcare? Was the health impacts? Right?
Speaker 1: That was that was the biggest one, even above environmental
Speaker 1: and social and um. And you know, one of the
Speaker 1: questions that this this book on tc A gets into
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, so we know that we can calculate
Speaker 1: the health costs, and now who pays for it? And
Speaker 1: how do you like? And I mean, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know the answer. I mean this, I think there's
Speaker 1: been some reporting on the soda taxs UM in California
Speaker 1: around like how effective it's been, and I don't know
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, um, what what that
Speaker 1: data looks like on a on a longer scale. In Mexico,
Speaker 1: they's it seems to have lower the obesity rates UM.
Speaker 1: And now it's a total tax for the whole country,
Speaker 1: so it does it does seem to be working, you know,
Speaker 1: but again, uh, soda is inexpensive and people who are
Speaker 1: you know, struggling food on the table. It is an option.
Speaker 1: And you know, you also have the issue with with
Speaker 1: you know, parents who are low We come and they're
Speaker 1: dealing with their families. They're telling their it's no all
Speaker 1: day long, you know, no to the the computer game,
Speaker 1: No to an iPhone, No to you know, a hundred
Speaker 1: dollar pair sneakers, No, no, no, no, all the time.
Speaker 1: And so do you say no to a cents you know,
Speaker 1: half a gallon of soda? So at what point can
Speaker 1: you say yes? And so it becomes an issue because
Speaker 1: again it's becomes a tax on poor people. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: A big focus is in this book is on using
Speaker 1: these kinds of analyzes to change policy and so to
Speaker 1: to shift the bigger system that you know rewards or
Speaker 1: disincentivizes certain practices, like all the way back at the source,
Speaker 1: so that it kind of starts to move big things
Speaker 1: that then change these these prices all together and the
Speaker 1: systems altogether. Stick around for more with Lisa held of Civilites. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm tim to click you and you're listening to citizens Chef.
Speaker 1: Let's get back to my discussion with Lisa health disiblites.
Speaker 1: What can true cost accounty tell us about food production
Speaker 1: and climate change? So some of the analyzes that are
Speaker 1: in the book and also the Rockefeller Report did include
Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions as one of the externalities that can
Speaker 1: be calculated in in this front within the framework. So
Speaker 1: you know, I suppose if you were going to look
Speaker 1: at a true cost accounting of um, you know, uh
Speaker 1: commodity steak or burger versus um the equivalent amount of
Speaker 1: protein from say beans, um, and you calculated in the
Speaker 1: health impacts, the you know, production, the and then the
Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions there um, the price of the meat
Speaker 1: would be higher than you know, the price of right
Speaker 1: would you capture? Wait? So if you're looking at true
Speaker 1: cost accounting and how agriculture contributes to greenhouse gases, do
Speaker 1: you do you do extrapolate out to the cost of storms?
Speaker 1: Because if if, if our climate is warming up and
Speaker 1: it's creating more powerful storms, more destructive storms. Um, do
Speaker 1: you calculate the cost of the clean up less storms
Speaker 1: in and the damage to homes and businesses? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: mean do you go that far? I mean you could
Speaker 1: that's I mean, this is sort of an emerging UM
Speaker 1: field and discussion, and I think that you could make
Speaker 1: an argument that that should be included. Right. You also,
Speaker 1: like we haven't even talked about the flip side, which
Speaker 1: is incorporating the benefits that that certain foods convey, right
Speaker 1: and including that in the calculation. So you know, you
Speaker 1: could have a farm that is UM doing something too,
Speaker 1: for instance, UM hold water on that farm in the
Speaker 1: in the event of a huge i'm at um event
Speaker 1: like a big flood, or you know, and building resilience
Speaker 1: so that they'll be able to produce food when we're
Speaker 1: facing all this extreme weather. And so you could you
Speaker 1: could calculate in you know, a benefit that they're providing
Speaker 1: as well UM or you know, if they're building biodiversity
Speaker 1: on the farm that supports pollinators and you know, we're
Speaker 1: gonna need pollinators because they're a lot of them are threatened.
Speaker 1: One of the challenges with True Cross the County is
Speaker 1: that it's this big, complicated, like emerging academic discipline, and
Speaker 1: like this book is, it's very wonky, so you know
Speaker 1: it's hard to be like, yes, we can do it
Speaker 1: this way, or no, we can't do we can do it,
Speaker 1: we can't do it that way. UM. I think it's
Speaker 1: it's all kind of being worked out as we sit here.
Speaker 1: I also when I whenever the articles started thinking about
Speaker 1: all the hog farms in North Carolina and the waste
Speaker 1: pits that are just you know, creating communities that are
Speaker 1: unlivable because at the stench. Property values have dropped and
Speaker 1: you can't sell a house if you're if you're located
Speaker 1: next to one of these hog farms. UM. And yet
Speaker 1: that's certainly not calculating the cost of pork at the supermarket.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, great example. And I think those environmental justice
Speaker 1: UM impacts are definitely a big part of the discussion here.
Speaker 1: And I mean, actually one crazy thing is in North Carolina,
Speaker 1: where those hog farms are concentrated. UM. In the last
Speaker 1: two years, there was a group of community residents that
Speaker 1: sued the industry and and actually one and we're granted
Speaker 1: UM some monetary compensation. And when you think about it,
Speaker 1: like this just occurred to me right now, that court
Speaker 1: was almost doing a form of true cost accounting, right
Speaker 1: because they they looked at like the way these community
Speaker 1: residents have been affected their whole lives with you know,
Speaker 1: health health impacts from breathing in um ammonia and um,
Speaker 1: the smells that ruin their quality of life, and like
Speaker 1: you said, value of their homes was destroyed, and the
Speaker 1: court said, you know you, there's actually a calculation we
Speaker 1: can do to provide damages and like in a way,
Speaker 1: that's actually kind of a form of true cost accounting.
Speaker 1: But again, that did it change the practice? Are these
Speaker 1: companies willing to just to sh out that money um
Speaker 1: to keep the calls solo? Um? So they're just selling
Speaker 1: more and more pork. And most of these companies aren't
Speaker 1: even owned by US companies anymore, China, Old Smithfield. So
Speaker 1: so we're taking other countries just just waste and decimating
Speaker 1: our communities because profit, because we want to sell cheap work,
Speaker 1: we want to export cheap A lot of that pork
Speaker 1: goes to China too. Yeah, absolutely sure, it's not. It
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't stay here. UM. Obviously, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone is suggesting that we should, um increase
Speaker 1: prices by two percent whatever whatever it would be to compensate.
Speaker 1: And so to what end are we doing is this
Speaker 1: is a strict be for if there is a lawsuit
Speaker 1: to calculate the costs. I mean, but where do you
Speaker 1: see this going do you do we talk about curing
Speaker 1: policy that could maybe stop some of this pollution at
Speaker 1: the source. So so for instance, like regulate, like changing
Speaker 1: regulatory frameworks to say like you you actually the e
Speaker 1: p A right now is looking at changing UM regulations
Speaker 1: for slaughterhouses to um if they had to figure out
Speaker 1: ways to pay for their own pollution into rivers um
Speaker 1: instead of just being able to let it go not
Speaker 1: and then you know the e p A is cleaning
Speaker 1: it up. That could be a way of internal like
Speaker 1: making that company internalize that cost um. There are some
Speaker 1: examples in the book in Denmark UM they have done
Speaker 1: it in in a way where they use taxes an
Speaker 1: interesting ways. So for instance, they tax the use of
Speaker 1: UM certain pesticides, certain very harmful pesticides, and that is
Speaker 1: a way to incent devise less pesticide use. And you
Speaker 1: know it's it's big, big policy at the federal level.
Speaker 1: And then there's oh, like for a good example I
Speaker 1: think is like the Good Food Purchasing Program which started
Speaker 1: in in the Los Angeles public school system and is
Speaker 1: now in schools and other institutions around the country. And
Speaker 1: they're saying, okay, we're going to evaluate when we decide
Speaker 1: where we're sourcing our food from. It's not just going
Speaker 1: to be what's the lowest costs item. We're gonna factor
Speaker 1: in all these other things. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: they still have to consider the actual price tag. Right.
Speaker 1: These are places using like you know, getting reimbursements from
Speaker 1: for the federal government, between know are low, um, But
Speaker 1: they are doing it, and they're they're considering all these
Speaker 1: different factors when they make decisions about the food that
Speaker 1: they source. UM. Yeah, I mean, I mean certainly you
Speaker 1: could tie crop insurance to conservation. That's that's something that's
Speaker 1: been you know, talked about for a while. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: all these farm subsidies are actually you know, peg towards conservation. Also,
Speaker 1: I imagine if they're higher costs associated with organic farming, um,
Speaker 1: and so they're not externalizing a lot of those costs.
Speaker 1: Those costs are are being captured in the price of
Speaker 1: organic food. UM. Is there a way to create an
Speaker 1: insurance program for those those um, especially crop producers versus
Speaker 1: the subsidies that mostly go to corn and soy producers.
Speaker 1: But you know, at a certain point, I guess it
Speaker 1: does show you that a lot of what we're doing
Speaker 1: is completely unsustainable at any price. Again, the way we're
Speaker 1: producing corn and soy in in places like Iowa are
Speaker 1: completely unsustainable. I mean, they're they're never going to clean
Speaker 1: up that dead zone in in in the Gulf of Mexico.
Speaker 1: And then what are what is the cost of that
Speaker 1: to the fisheries? What is the cost of that to
Speaker 1: just health? I mean there are places now in Tampa,
Speaker 1: the altgeb booms are are just horrible where people can't
Speaker 1: leave their homes, they can't go outside, they're getting respiratory illness.
Speaker 1: Is uh, fisher are showing up dead. And so what
Speaker 1: is that doing to the fisheries there? What is it
Speaker 1: doing to our oceans? Who's gonna baar the cost to that? UM?
Speaker 1: I don't see the farmers and I doing that. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you have to charge them
Speaker 1: to do that, but it would be unstainable for them
Speaker 1: as well. UM. And so you know, you kind of
Speaker 1: hope that at least through t c A, that the
Speaker 1: government from a policy standpoint could start looking at some
Speaker 1: of these practices and figuring out how um again either
Speaker 1: created better incentives for better practices versus just fine people. UM.
Speaker 1: But but you can also come up with with with
Speaker 1: you know, clear rules around pollution and can can you know,
Speaker 1: can you you at least find ways to divert um
Speaker 1: again by using bioswales, by using other filtration methods to
Speaker 1: filter the nitrates at the source versus waiting for them
Speaker 1: to be discharged in two into the waters. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you know you mentioned crop insurance and um thinking
Speaker 1: about this this crop land in in places that are
Speaker 1: emptying into the gulf. You could also about commodity programs
Speaker 1: in the farm bill. And I actually recently saw somebody
Speaker 1: showed me the actual calculation that happens to determine, um,
Speaker 1: how much a farmer gets paid um in in you know,
Speaker 1: forms of just a commodity payment just for growing, just
Speaker 1: for having these acres of cotton or corn or soy.
Speaker 1: And we're handing out all this money based on this
Speaker 1: simple calculation that only considers what is the market price
Speaker 1: of this crop right now and how many acres do
Speaker 1: you have? And and you know, I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: obviously far fetched, you know, if we know how policy works.
Speaker 1: But what you know, what if that calculation included you know,
Speaker 1: you you get less money if you're discharging nitrogen into
Speaker 1: the golf, or you get more money if you implement
Speaker 1: these controls to reduce the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus
Speaker 1: that are are coming off your fields. Right Like, you
Speaker 1: don't get you don't get a commodity payment if you
Speaker 1: don't plant cover crops. There's there's all these you know,
Speaker 1: sort of things that ways you could kind of go
Speaker 1: about it. So how how can t c A inform
Speaker 1: the consumer on making better choices in the marketplace? The
Speaker 1: biggest thing is just kind of getting kind of adjusting
Speaker 1: a consumer mindset. And I think like there's a really
Speaker 1: there's a really great chapter in the book that Kathleen
Speaker 1: Marrigan did that is just basically her talking about how
Speaker 1: to use true cost accounting to think about the impacts
Speaker 1: of um plant and cell based meats, these sort of
Speaker 1: foe meats that are emerging compared to um actual meat.
Speaker 1: And it's a really cool it's just an exercise. She
Speaker 1: doesn't it's not academic like the others where she's like,
Speaker 1: we're going to do this study and she's just like,
Speaker 1: here's the questions that I would ask, you know, um,
Speaker 1: what like what is the actual nutrition of this burger?
Speaker 1: And you know, where, where are the ingredients going to
Speaker 1: be grown own? And how are they going to be grown?
Speaker 1: And and so I think like for a consumer, it's
Speaker 1: it's like just familiarizing yourself with all of these questions
Speaker 1: so that when you do make decisions about what you're
Speaker 1: gonna buy or what you're gonna eat, you're able to
Speaker 1: think about it in this systemic way and kind of
Speaker 1: um consider all these variables rather than just you know, say, well,
Speaker 1: I heard plant based food is better than meat, so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna buy this impossible burger. Like It's it's not
Speaker 1: that simple, unfortunately, And so I think just familiarizing yourself
Speaker 1: with the kinds of things that the kinds of impacts
Speaker 1: that do exist can help consumers make better choices. Stick
Speaker 1: around for more with Lisa Held of Civil Wits. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm you, and you're listening to citizens, yet I'm talking
Speaker 1: with journalists Lisa Held about reforming our food system using
Speaker 1: true cost accounting or t c A. In hearing this conversation,
Speaker 1: it's just it's dounting on me that a lot of
Speaker 1: farms that are either organic, are a lot of farms
Speaker 1: that are raising animals, mainly a lot of local farms
Speaker 1: that are around me out here, I'm mountain on the
Speaker 1: north Folk Long Island UM and wondering if they can
Speaker 1: use t c A to actually show the consumer why
Speaker 1: their cost of the food that you're buying in these
Speaker 1: more farms is more. Absolutely, I think that's definitely something
Speaker 1: that we're going to be seeing more and more of. UM.
Speaker 1: Chipotle had this thing that they released recently that was
Speaker 1: like UM an app where you could look at how
Speaker 1: your order UM fared on environmental and social like metrics
Speaker 1: where it was like, Okay, I ordered this being burrito
Speaker 1: and it was like, you can see how many greenhouse
Speaker 1: gas emissions you saved and what the UM social impact
Speaker 1: was by choosing this ingredient. And so that's exactly what
Speaker 1: they're doing. They're using the way that they source as
Speaker 1: a marketing tool essentially, right, So this devetails right into
Speaker 1: environmental social governors, you know e s G, which is
Speaker 1: kind of a hot topic now. Investors are investing and
Speaker 1: everything e s G are looking for an e s
Speaker 1: G play. Major companies again like Chipotle and other major
Speaker 1: food companies out there, are looking at how they could
Speaker 1: be more responsible to the environment, to social causes and
Speaker 1: actually you know, have better governance and UM, and I'm
Speaker 1: imagining that you know that using using UM, you know,
Speaker 1: t c A could could help those companies figure out
Speaker 1: where best to make those investments that will have a
Speaker 1: greater impact on the environment. Are are you know social
Speaker 1: well being? Absolutely? Yeah? Um. Lauren the editor of the
Speaker 1: book Way interviewed. She Um pointed to investment as one
Speaker 1: of the most promising applications of t c A and
Speaker 1: for that exact reason that E s G has already
Speaker 1: kind of taken hold in the investment world, and so um,
Speaker 1: applying a tc A framework is not really new, it's
Speaker 1: just kind of an expansion of that E s G
Speaker 1: framework that already exists. Yeah, you're going shopping. You're not
Speaker 1: really paying attention to this. You're you're loading up the
Speaker 1: grocery cart. What choices can you make now? I'm obviously
Speaker 1: going to a farmer's market would be a better choice,
Speaker 1: especially for local economies. Going to a small farm and
Speaker 1: buying your chicken, all that's great, But most people shopping
Speaker 1: a supermarket, what can they do in the supermarket or
Speaker 1: do you think the supermarket then bears some responsibility to
Speaker 1: at least have marketing materials around better choices that are
Speaker 1: better for um, the environment and better for for for
Speaker 1: social issues. Who who bears the responsibility to educate the consumer? Um?
Speaker 1: That is a big question, UM journalists maybe, UM, you
Speaker 1: know there's there's your next story there. Certainly, I certainly
Speaker 1: feel the responsibility of educating very very strong strongly. UM.
Speaker 1: It weighs on me all the time. But how responsible
Speaker 1: do you feel? I feel extremely responsible. I would say
Speaker 1: educating the public is is like maybe half and then
Speaker 1: the other half is holding power to account. So UM,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of a lot of what I do
Speaker 1: is reporting on the behavior of um, some of these companies,
Speaker 1: especially like the biggest meat backing companies and that have
Speaker 1: a lot of power and and but then educating people
Speaker 1: on is part of that, right, So it's it's kind
Speaker 1: of a combination. But um, but yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: supermarkets are tough. Like I I do think you know,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of privilege and that I do
Speaker 1: shop mostly at markets. I also have a really great
Speaker 1: supermarket UM by me that has really great options, UM,
Speaker 1: and not everybody has that. But I mean I think
Speaker 1: like just shifting more to vegetables and greens and beans
Speaker 1: and all of those foods that immediately can have such
Speaker 1: a big impact because meats commodity meets impacts in terms
Speaker 1: of all resources and also impacts on people, and they're
Speaker 1: just so outsized compared to all of the plant based foods.
Speaker 1: I do think that the consumer, what the consumer can
Speaker 1: do is limited, Like by the time it gets they
Speaker 1: get to the supermarket, it feels a little bit limited.
Speaker 1: And I think like actually changing what is available in
Speaker 1: the supermarket is a better approach. What could be interesting
Speaker 1: is is if the usd A created a framework UH
Speaker 1: and policy around labeling, whereas part of labeling your product,
Speaker 1: you have to put the effect that this particular product has,
Speaker 1: like what are the external costs that that are are
Speaker 1: out there um based on this particular item. So if
Speaker 1: it's a chicken producer, they're going to have to figure
Speaker 1: out the true cost accounting on that chicken, and it
Speaker 1: has to be part of the lingling so least the
Speaker 1: consumer understands UM, you know where their choices are are.
Speaker 1: You know the choice they're making are contributing to um uh.
Speaker 1: You know, these companies being able to to externalize their costs,
Speaker 1: you know, even going as far as looking at wages
Speaker 1: and and and uh, people who are relying on snap
Speaker 1: of working in particular meat packing companies are large food companies. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean that could be an interesting way to go
Speaker 1: about it, just to just have a framework to understand, um,
Speaker 1: the contribution that that that you know, your purchases making. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would love to see a t c A accounting
Speaker 1: on the true cost of of taking farage fish. And
Speaker 1: the calculation is, you know, ten pounds of farage fish
Speaker 1: creates one pound of meat. That just doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: make sense to me at all. It is, but it's
Speaker 1: still um, it's just a nonsense cultivate but uh um,
Speaker 1: and what is the cost of that? What is the
Speaker 1: cost of a fishery collapsing because of this? What is
Speaker 1: the cost of the pollution of you know, these farm
Speaker 1: drift nets that are causing on the environment around these farms.
Speaker 1: And that would be an interesting, uh exercise to look at.
Speaker 1: Hopefully somebody listening that is a researcher. Well we'll hurry
Speaker 1: up and do that for us, right. UM. So different
Speaker 1: subject now is as a food journalist, what else right
Speaker 1: now are you looking at? What excites you? Do you
Speaker 1: see anything now in in you know, tom Ville Sack's
Speaker 1: second go around in the U s t A that
Speaker 1: you think they're that we're getting right of such a
Speaker 1: good question. I mean, the most interesting thing at the
Speaker 1: USDA right now, I think is these UM what they're
Speaker 1: doing with with meat packing. And you know, the Biden
Speaker 1: administration just had this big announcement that I covered UM
Speaker 1: in terms of how they're going to be tackling consolidation
Speaker 1: UM within the meat packing industry and UM trying to
Speaker 1: implement some reforms that are a long time coming to
Speaker 1: shift the balance of power are in the system towards
Speaker 1: farmers and workers and away from UM these big companies.
Speaker 1: And honestly like that, even even the administration putting out
Speaker 1: that executive order and showing the charts of how you know,
Speaker 1: profits have risen and prices to farmers have not, and
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff was so taboo to talk about,
Speaker 1: what like for forever and so that was a little
Speaker 1: I was. I was really surprised by that. And uh,
Speaker 1: one of one of my food heroes, Shelley Pingery, has
Speaker 1: been really focused on the licenses, the licenses that are
Speaker 1: giving out by the U s d A to various
Speaker 1: farmers and meat packing UM and how Uh, the largest
Speaker 1: of the companies make sure that these licenses, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: are aren't getting put out there at all. Um And
Speaker 1: so it's really restricted for a small farmer where they
Speaker 1: can only you know, maybe maybe they can kill the
Speaker 1: animal on the farm, but they can't break it up
Speaker 1: into pieces, so they can't sell them to market change.
Speaker 1: They can only sell on their farmers or farmers markets.
Speaker 1: Highly highly restrictive. And it's the big meat packing company
Speaker 1: to the world that make sure that these licenses don't
Speaker 1: get out there. And so she's been doing some great
Speaker 1: work on that. Yeah. Yeah, Shelly Shelley is great. Interview
Speaker 1: her many times. She always has um a lot of
Speaker 1: of insights on these topics. And I mean, and the
Speaker 1: flip side of what USCA is doing is they are
Speaker 1: also putting money into building up regional meat infrastructure, which
Speaker 1: you know is speaks to what you're talking about. You know,
Speaker 1: there there's an issue with access to slaughterhouses if you
Speaker 1: are a small farm raising animals on pasture, and and
Speaker 1: there's all these rules about where you can sell. And
Speaker 1: then there there is a movement um and energy around
Speaker 1: tackling that and making it easier and building up more
Speaker 1: resilient infrastructure for regional and smaller systems. That's that's I
Speaker 1: think the most interesting thing coming out of usd A
Speaker 1: and looking at some of the climate solutions that are
Speaker 1: being proposed for the food system and whether or not
Speaker 1: they are really effective and and if they come with
Speaker 1: unintended consequences. UM. So, I think there's a lot in
Speaker 1: that area that is going to be really important obviously
Speaker 1: as we're facing this climate crisis um and things are
Speaker 1: pretty urgent on that front at least. So listen. It's
Speaker 1: been great having him um and and I. You know,
Speaker 1: hopefully we can keep this communication going because you're welcome information.
Speaker 1: You're working a lot of things that interest me. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us today, and uh Um, thanks for the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. Thank you so much. I'll come
Speaker 1: back anytime. Tc A or true cost accounting feels intuitives
Speaker 1: to me, and I think we can all use a
Speaker 1: more inclusive lens when it comes to assess and the
Speaker 1: impact of our actions, and not just when it comes
Speaker 1: to food. That being said, I hope this conversation, along
Speaker 1: with the previous episodes, inspire you to think of the
Speaker 1: larger picture when choosing your groceries. Are going out to dinner.
Speaker 1: You know, we all have to eat. Whether our foods
Speaker 1: and enrich our lives cause more harm is up to us,
Speaker 1: and I have a lot of faith it will be
Speaker 1: more of the former. I've learned so much the season,
Speaker 1: and I hope you have to let us know what's
Speaker 1: stuck with you if you have a chance, whether it
Speaker 1: be on Twitter or hashtag. Citizen Chef are in a review?
Speaker 1: What kind of world do you want to see? And
Speaker 1: how can you help get us there? Thanks again to
Speaker 1: journalists Lisa help for expertise and are excellent reporting on
Speaker 1: all things food. Thanks to a Place to the Table,
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening you. We hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this season of Citizen Chef and you have a safe, happy,
Speaker 1: and more importantly delicious autumn. Citizen Chef is executive cruised
Speaker 1: by Christopher Hasciotas, pruced by Garbielle Collins, and researched by
Speaker 1: Lillian Holman. Citizen Chef is the production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts like this, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcaster, anywhere you get your favorite Jos