WEBVTT - Season Finale: True Cost Accounting w/ Lisa Held 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:08.000 Citizen Chef has a production of My Heart Radio. Hello everyone. 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:10.200 You know, I can't believe it's already fall. And with 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.360 the season's change, we're also wrapping up season two of 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.239 Citizen Chef. You know, it's been an exciting summer and 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.560 we've covered a lot of topics and whether it is 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.760 as foundational as how the USDA works are as current 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.919 and as exciting as the history making increase in SNAP funding, 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.120 as vital as recognized in the impact of black restaurant tourism. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.360 Chefs are as totally cool as considering the future of 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.440 cannabis in our restaurants, and that obviously just scratched the surface. 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:38.640 But I didn't want to close out this season by 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.000 focusing again on the big picture. This year, we try 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.080 to make sure our conversations were wide reaching, and while 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.600 we always start with food, we definitely don't end there. 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.320 What we eat affix our health, affix our environment, affects 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.839 our economy and has a history to that affects that 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.960 we understand ourselves in our country. But today we're gonna 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.720 focus on the true cost of food now. Just as 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.480 an an example, UH farmers in Iowa UH use a 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:06.600 tons of night grates on their fields and UH those 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.880 night rates leach out into the Mississippi, they head downstream, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.560 and they create a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.560 And so what impact does the farmer in Iowa have 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.280 on fishing communities in the gulf. Does it have on 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.800 fish reproduction in the gulf and the effects of that 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.560 has on the overall economy. None of that is factored 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.560 into the price of corn in Iowa, the price of 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.000 soy in Iowa. So in fact, in July, the Rockefello 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.960 Foundation released the report that estimated that the true cost 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.000 of food in the United States to be more than 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.120 three trillion dollars as opposed to the one trillion dollars 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.920 that Americans spending. And that is because they factored in 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.720 things like the environmental UH impacts and health impacts of 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.560 our food habits, which cost us more in long term. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.880 So we're closing out the season to look at true 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.840 cost accounting. You know, there's a growing movement to include 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.480 true cost accounting r r t c A with considering 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.120 the cost of food, which can be far more than 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.960 what you pay at the market. And our guest today 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.080 is quite familiar with that report and cited it in 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.640 her article for civilis entitled count Accounting for the True 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.760 Cost of Food Change the Global food System. So let 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.480 me introduce journalists Lisa Held who specializes in writing about 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.560 food and agriculture and even host her own podcast called 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.880 The Farm Report. So I'm thrilled to have Lisa because 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.240 she is an expert in the field, and she's also 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.120 truly skilled at breaking down topics as big as t 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.400 c A for us to understand. Lisa is gonna help 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.440 explain a bit more about what t c A is 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.919 and how it impacts our current food system and how 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.120 it could improve future systems in a way that is 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.560 equitable and more sustainable. So welcome Lisa, thanks for inviting me. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.280 When I read the article that you wrote in Civil 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.440 e its Um, I was really intrigued because this is 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:51.519 something that obviously is someone who's involved in the food system, 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.840 not only participating the food system, producing food, eating food, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.680 buying food from my home, but also very active in 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.400 policy work around the food system. Uh. And so this 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.520 is something that a lot of us have you know, 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.000 known for a while and talked about for a while. Um, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:10.080 we all know that poor diet. Um. Can you know 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.920 worth I think spending somewhere in the neighborhood billion dollars 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.840 a year a year in healthcare costs associated with poor diet. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.320 Um who pays for that? And so when I read 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.680 the article, I was like, finally, someone really you know, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.600 putting um some accounting practices around us so we can 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.120 maybe figure out, you know, the impact, the actual financial 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.680 impact that the way we're producing food has not only 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:37.920 UM to our pockets, but also to the environment. Uh 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.520 and and to municipalities who are stuck holding the bill 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.160 to clean this up. I love that you brought up 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.040 this idea that it's not really anything new, right, Like 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.240 I talked to Lauren Baker, one of the editors of 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.200 this book True Cost Accounting, in my article about that fact, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:54.840 because she was talking about the fact that she had 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.720 been asking these kinds of questions for her entire career, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.600 you know, maybe for decades, but there hadn't been a 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.240 name for it or kind of a systemic way to 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.520 think about this. So, you know, at its most basic level, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:13.560 true cost accounting involves measuring all the impacts of a 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.800 given food from production at the farm all the way 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.440 through to consumption UM. And those would be impacts on 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:24.479 people society, the environment, and you know we've been doing that. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.120 But the idea here is we need an actual framework 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:34.039 in a way to calculate those costs um each one, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.880 you know, come up with a number. Sometimes sometimes it's 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.880 more qualitative because it can be tricky, like when you 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:44.279 think about how do you calculate something like animal welfare 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.320 or equity. Sometimes it's it's tricky to come up with 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:48.840 a number, you know. So I'll just share with you 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.520 very quickly a little story right out in front of 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.719 my house. Here there is a little triangle, UM. And 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:58.160 the triangle is a collection area for water um as 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.280 heavy rains. And then that is a little area that 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.160 collects water before it goes into a pond. Now, this 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.760 little pond that we have here, UM, for the twenty 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.240 years that I've been here, usually around July, it there's 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.800 algae blooms. It turns green. It's kind of nasty. And 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.760 of course the reason this is happening is because there's 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.359 potato farms all around here. They're dumping tons of nitrates 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.800 on the on the farms. That runoff goes into the 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.520 pond algae bloom, right. And so the town engineer has 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.760 got a grant from the state to spend about fifty 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.960 you know, thousand dollars to take this collection area and 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.680 put a a trap in it to collect water. But 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.880 in doing that, you know, to cover his ass, he's 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.800 got to put a six foot fence around it and 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.080 cut down all the trees. And this is in front 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.120 of my house, and so and and so all the 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.120 neighbors we live around here. We got together to go 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.839 to a an emergency meeting of the parks department because 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.240 the parks department has jurisdiction over this UM and it 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.080 was very much like parks and recreation UM and UH. 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:58.880 And at one point it came up like what role 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.960 was the farmer play in this? And the answer was 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:05.640 Clean Water Act zero. He has no responsibility for cleaning 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.719 this and so UM I thought would be great to 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.920 get you and on the podcast to talk about this 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.120 idea of true cost accounting and who is going to 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.800 bear the cost of of of a lot of these 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.440 issues that that we're talking about. So so welcome aboard. 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.279 So in just in large terms of viewers can understand 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.200 what is true cost accounting. You know, the bigger idea 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.480 is trying to come up with these frameworks that can 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:35.000 allow us to make those calculations, and then the next 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.640 step is how and where do we apply those calculations, 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.479 you know, in order to either move policy or get 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:47.160 corporations that are externalizing some of their costs to internalize 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.560 them and actually pay. Like, for instance, these farms you're 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.840 talking about that are polluting the town, like you know, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.839 maybe they should you know, be paying those costs of 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.360 cleaning it up or have to create a collection area 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.120 on their farm that will filter the water through you know, 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.200 bios whales and things like that before it goes into 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:10.200 this pond or this other collection area. Sure, right, yeah, 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.239 So give us an example. I think you start following 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:18.280 a tomato from Florida to Canada. Is that was getting 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.160 that right? That was an example that that Lauren had 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.000 of um of research she had done in the past um, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.920 which is definitely um something that that kind of works. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.520 I think a better example that that people might be 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.280 able to kind of relate to is if you think 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.520 about the cost of like a fast food value meal. Right, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.400 it's super cheap. We right, Like that's one of the 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.880 amazing things that that's like the selling points, like you 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.080 can get this whole meal. It's really the price tag 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.320 is low, right, But so then you know, a true 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.240 cost accounting analysis would look at things like, all right, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.640 what kind of pollution did the production of the meat cause? Right? 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.840 What we're workers paid on the farms, the slaughterhouse, in 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.960 the restaurant. Um. And then and not only what were 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.000 they paid, but if they were paid low wages, how 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.960 were they then, um accessing food? Were they getting snap 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.680 benefits that you know, that's a that's a cost, right? 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.840 What is in the cost of that happy meal? There 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.160 is there is a cost associated of the you know, 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.760 and yes it's it's dirt cheap, scratch your head, going, 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.480 how can they possibly do this? Um? And so? But 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.400 but there are some of those are captured in the 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.560 price of that, but obviously not not well, the wages 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.679 they are being paid are being captured in that price, right. 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.920 So so if there but if it workers being paid 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.679 eleven dollars an hour and then has to um access 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.959 snap benefits for example, to pay to feed their families, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.400 which you know is necessary, um, then that cost is 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.439 not captured in there, which is a cost that you 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.839 know taxpayers ultimately pay. I'm glad, I'm glad you went there. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.360 That was exactly where I was hoping you were going 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:59.120 with this because and again I wanted the listener to 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:05.959 really understand and um, the cost of of of cheap 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.360 wages or low wages. Yes, it's going to keep food 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.520 costs down, but somewhere along the line, someone's gonna have 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.800 to access some sort of benefits to actually feed their family. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.080 And so who's paying for that? Taxpayers are paying for that, 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:21.720 and and so essentially what we're doing and this is 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.480 it's It's tricky though, because you don't want to raise 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.800 the price of that meal, especially at the happy meal. 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.240 People want low income are that with their with their 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.160 using to feed their family, and it's very inexpensive, and 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.400 so raising the price of that um would have adverse 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.800 effects to that community. But on the same hand, if 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.040 you paid those people more, they could probably afford the 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.480 few dollars extra for the happy meal. You know, That's 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.680 actually probably one of the biggest things people ask me 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.280 whenever I talk about like, um, you know, producing better food, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.160 healthier food, um, you know, organic food, anything, it's always well, 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.600 what about people that can't afford it? Which is such 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.800 an important question, right, And there's a need for people 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.319 to simply get food on the table to feed their families. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.800 And and I think you and I both both agree 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.280 on that for sure. Um, But you know, I think 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.760 that I think true class accounting can kind of help 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.840 us entangle this because the way that I think about 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.880 it is the price of the food if you think 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.920 about it in a big picture sense, like the price 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.160 of the food should be about what it costs to 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.840 produce that food, plus some sort of reasonable markup to 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.400 pay the people who are providing it, right, the restaurant, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.880 the workers, the UM farmer. And then the flip the 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.600 other side, the question of who can afford that food 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.960 is about food access, and that's about low wages, access 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:46.040 to affordable healthcare, UM, systemic inequality, wealth gap. So there 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.120 are there are places that those that side of things 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:56.520 can be fixed, um, that that can then enable people 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.960 to access healthier food. And and also, like I mean, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.280 the the labor question is crazy because I mean, I 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.240 think if you're if you're talking about a small restaurant, 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.720 this isn't true. And I think you know from operating 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.960 restaurants that labor costs are very real. Um, difficult thing 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.960 for restaurant owners to deal with, right and um, but 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.720 you know when we're talking about these big companies that 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:23.880 pay insanely low wages and produce really cheap food. You know, there, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.280 I have this example that I would love to share. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.000 So there was a report that came out. Ox Fan 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:34.120 put it out last fall um that they did an 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.400 analysis and they showed that Jeff Bezos could have personally 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.760 paid each of Amazon's eight dred and seventies six thousand 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.000 employees a one off a hundred and five thousand dollar 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:48.600 bonus with the wealthy accumulated between March and August alone, 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.160 and still be as wealthy as he was at the 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.840 beginning of the pandemic. So that's that's the kind of 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.280 money that exists within that system already. And so then 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.960 you know the same in the same month. A month later, 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.959 the federal government put out a report showing the Amazon 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.800 was among the top twenty five employers with workers enrolled 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.920 in SNAP in six out of nine states. So literally 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.400 taxpayers are making up the wages Amazon isn't paying while 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.240 celebrating how cheap the groceries are. Right, So they're in that. Like, 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.880 there's a lot of examples like that where it is 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.680 actually pretty straightforward and clear. And then there are other 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:28.959 examples where it's not and it is complicated and you 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.520 don't want right, and then he turns around it writes 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.480 an hundred million dollar check to Girl Central Kitchen to 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:36.800 make it all back right exactly. And it's like, well 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.240 that which is good and great, like they're doing amazing work. 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.679 But it's also like these things can be fixed at 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:50.720 the source. Um, you know. Yeah. And so we talked 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.800 about farmers and the farmers that are puty, but what 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.640 about large food companies that are that are just creating 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.400 really unhealthy food at really low prices, and are do 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:05.080 you see uh them contributing to healthcare costs somehow? Where 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.439 if you're going to produce food that's unhealthy, um, it's cheap. Uh, 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:14.320 but yet we we know it's it's it's harmful. Um 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.720 do we see? I mean how where where are you 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.920 on a soda tacks? Is that? Do you think that's 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.640 the way to actually deal with this some you know, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.000 some unhealthy choices. Are you prefer a carrot? You know, 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.640 in in like a double bus program? Right? Um? Well, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.520 I'm a journalist, so I'm not gonna like say what 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:36.360 I think should be done, but but I can, but 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.640 I can talk about the evidence that I that I 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.800 can and you know, it's a really it's a really 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.320 good question because you know that Rockefeller report that just 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.720 came out, UM, that showed the costs of the food 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.719 systemer about three trillion when you calculate in all the 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.280 additional costs instead of the one trillion that we pay. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.880 The biggest external costs was healthcare? Was the health impacts? Right? 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.599 That was that was the biggest one, even above environmental 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.280 and social and um. And you know, one of the 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.120 questions that this this book on tc A gets into 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.040 is like, Okay, so we know that we can calculate 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:17.040 the health costs, and now who pays for it? And 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.560 how do you like? And I mean, I don't I 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.000 don't know the answer. I mean this, I think there's 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.239 been some reporting on the soda taxs UM in California 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.720 around like how effective it's been, and I don't know 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.960 off the top of my head, um, what what that 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.480 data looks like on a on a longer scale. In Mexico, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.840 they's it seems to have lower the obesity rates UM. 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.600 And now it's a total tax for the whole country, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.080 so it does it does seem to be working, you know, 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.200 but again, uh, soda is inexpensive and people who are 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.760 you know, struggling food on the table. It is an option. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.040 And you know, you also have the issue with with 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.560 you know, parents who are low We come and they're 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.680 dealing with their families. They're telling their it's no all 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:05.160 day long, you know, no to the the computer game, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.120 No to an iPhone, No to you know, a hundred 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.680 dollar pair sneakers, No, no, no, no, all the time. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.000 And so do you say no to a cents you know, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.160 half a gallon of soda? So at what point can 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.960 you say yes? And so it becomes an issue because 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.160 again it's becomes a tax on poor people. Right. Well, 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.720 A big focus is in this book is on using 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.960 these kinds of analyzes to change policy and so to 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.640 to shift the bigger system that you know rewards or 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.400 disincentivizes certain practices, like all the way back at the source, 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.880 so that it kind of starts to move big things 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.440 that then change these these prices all together and the 0:15:46.520 --> 0:16:01.240 systems altogether. Stick around for more with Lisa held of Civilites. Hey, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.640 I'm tim to click you and you're listening to citizens Chef. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.560 Let's get back to my discussion with Lisa health disiblites. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.280 What can true cost accounty tell us about food production 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.640 and climate change? So some of the analyzes that are 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.720 in the book and also the Rockefeller Report did include 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:22.480 greenhouse gas emissions as one of the externalities that can 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.000 be calculated in in this front within the framework. So 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.080 you know, I suppose if you were going to look 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.840 at a true cost accounting of um, you know, uh 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:40.080 commodity steak or burger versus um the equivalent amount of 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:46.400 protein from say beans, um, and you calculated in the 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.400 health impacts, the you know, production, the and then the 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:55.080 greenhouse gas emissions there um, the price of the meat 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.840 would be higher than you know, the price of right 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.040 would you capture? Wait? So if you're looking at true 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:08.399 cost accounting and how agriculture contributes to greenhouse gases, do 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.840 you do you do extrapolate out to the cost of storms? 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.560 Because if if, if our climate is warming up and 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.119 it's creating more powerful storms, more destructive storms. Um, do 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.280 you calculate the cost of the clean up less storms 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:26.359 in and the damage to homes and businesses? Yeah? I 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.119 mean do you go that far? I mean you could 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.160 that's I mean, this is sort of an emerging UM 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.280 field and discussion, and I think that you could make 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.120 an argument that that should be included. Right. You also, 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:40.680 like we haven't even talked about the flip side, which 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:46.359 is incorporating the benefits that that certain foods convey, right 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.600 and including that in the calculation. So you know, you 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.920 could have a farm that is UM doing something too, 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.199 for instance, UM hold water on that farm in the 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.280 in the event of a huge i'm at um event 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.520 like a big flood, or you know, and building resilience 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:06.920 so that they'll be able to produce food when we're 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.800 facing all this extreme weather. And so you could you 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:14.320 could calculate in you know, a benefit that they're providing 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.760 as well UM or you know, if they're building biodiversity 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.680 on the farm that supports pollinators and you know, we're 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.760 gonna need pollinators because they're a lot of them are threatened. 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.879 One of the challenges with True Cross the County is 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:32.919 that it's this big, complicated, like emerging academic discipline, and 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:38.120 like this book is, it's very wonky, so you know 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.439 it's hard to be like, yes, we can do it 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.280 this way, or no, we can't do we can do it, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.920 we can't do it that way. UM. I think it's 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.520 it's all kind of being worked out as we sit here. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.480 I also when I whenever the articles started thinking about 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.399 all the hog farms in North Carolina and the waste 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.919 pits that are just you know, creating communities that are 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.680 unlivable because at the stench. Property values have dropped and 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.679 you can't sell a house if you're if you're located 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.240 next to one of these hog farms. UM. And yet 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.920 that's certainly not calculating the cost of pork at the supermarket. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.360 That's yeah, great example. And I think those environmental justice 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.800 UM impacts are definitely a big part of the discussion here. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.640 And I mean, actually one crazy thing is in North Carolina, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.600 where those hog farms are concentrated. UM. In the last 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.000 two years, there was a group of community residents that 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:34.119 sued the industry and and actually one and we're granted 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.960 UM some monetary compensation. And when you think about it, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.680 like this just occurred to me right now, that court 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.840 was almost doing a form of true cost accounting, right 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.960 because they they looked at like the way these community 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.879 residents have been affected their whole lives with you know, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:56.400 health health impacts from breathing in um ammonia and um, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:00.159 the smells that ruin their quality of life, and like 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.320 you said, value of their homes was destroyed, and the 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.119 court said, you know you, there's actually a calculation we 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.360 can do to provide damages and like in a way, 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.160 that's actually kind of a form of true cost accounting. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.280 But again, that did it change the practice? Are these 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.639 companies willing to just to sh out that money um 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.479 to keep the calls solo? Um? So they're just selling 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.000 more and more pork. And most of these companies aren't 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.960 even owned by US companies anymore, China, Old Smithfield. So 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:31.480 so we're taking other countries just just waste and decimating 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.400 our communities because profit, because we want to sell cheap work, 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.240 we want to export cheap A lot of that pork 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.000 goes to China too. Yeah, absolutely sure, it's not. It 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:46.399 doesn't it doesn't stay here. UM. Obviously, I don't. I 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:51.160 don't think anyone is suggesting that we should, um increase 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.600 prices by two percent whatever whatever it would be to compensate. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.440 And so to what end are we doing is this 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.880 is a strict be for if there is a lawsuit 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.760 to calculate the costs. I mean, but where do you 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.800 see this going do you do we talk about curing 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.880 policy that could maybe stop some of this pollution at 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.640 the source. So so for instance, like regulate, like changing 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.200 regulatory frameworks to say like you you actually the e 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.200 p A right now is looking at changing UM regulations 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.120 for slaughterhouses to um if they had to figure out 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:30.040 ways to pay for their own pollution into rivers um 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:34.280 instead of just being able to let it go not 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.879 and then you know the e p A is cleaning 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.919 it up. That could be a way of internal like 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.199 making that company internalize that cost um. There are some 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:45.800 examples in the book in Denmark UM they have done 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.479 it in in a way where they use taxes an 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.919 interesting ways. So for instance, they tax the use of 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:59.119 UM certain pesticides, certain very harmful pesticides, and that is 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.520 a way to incent devise less pesticide use. And you 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.119 know it's it's big, big policy at the federal level. 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.879 And then there's oh, like for a good example I 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.879 think is like the Good Food Purchasing Program which started 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.679 in in the Los Angeles public school system and is 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.879 now in schools and other institutions around the country. And 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.560 they're saying, okay, we're going to evaluate when we decide 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.679 where we're sourcing our food from. It's not just going 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.600 to be what's the lowest costs item. We're gonna factor 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:28.200 in all these other things. At the end of the day, 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.720 they still have to consider the actual price tag. Right. 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.040