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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Facebook

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Speaker 1: heady brief for previow yesterday, but shares are down nearly

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Speaker 1: one percent again today after losing nearly fourteen percent uh

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Speaker 1: IF their shares last week. Here to join us to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about a behind the scenes look

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Speaker 1: at how Facebook approached marketing and how they attracted certain

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Speaker 1: shady advertisers is Robert Friedman, Senior editor on the Projects

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Speaker 1: and Investigations team here at Bloomberg News. This is an

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Speaker 1: amazing story. It's going to be in Business Week. It's

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Speaker 1: written by Zeke Fox. I recommend everybody read it. Can

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Speaker 1: you just give us a sense of where it begins

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Speaker 1: this conference at why it's notable. Well, Zeke is on

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Speaker 1: a well deserved vacation this week, UM, so I'm here

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Speaker 1: to uh to speak for him. This story has been

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Speaker 1: in the works for over a year. UM. And Zeke

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Speaker 1: came to me last spring and said, I want to

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Speaker 1: go to this conference in Berlin for affiliate marketers. And

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Speaker 1: I said, what is that. I just want to go

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Speaker 1: to Berlin and DC And then he said, and there's

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Speaker 1: also an after party and abissa which I want to

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Speaker 1: go to. And I said, Zeke, are you scamming me?

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Speaker 1: And um. But the more he told me about this

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Speaker 1: strange world of affiliate marketing, UM, I the more I

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Speaker 1: got interested. So affiliate marketing is basically just a bunch

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Speaker 1: of middleman who buy clicks and views from Facebook and

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Speaker 1: sell them to people who try to sell stuff. A

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Speaker 1: lot of it's legitimate. UM. Plenty of companies use this

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Speaker 1: as an advertising tool. But UM, all the shady advertisers

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Speaker 1: who sell uh stuff through you know, free iPhone offers

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Speaker 1: or diet pills approved by Oprah Winfrey or Elon Musk's

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Speaker 1: UM smart pills, UM, fake endorsements, UM, stuff that pops

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Speaker 1: up and pollutes your your your Internet experience. UM. They

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Speaker 1: all actually um take advantage of this affiliate marketing deal.

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Speaker 1: And they all congregate around this conference, which is hosted

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Speaker 1: by a suspiciously sounded group called Stack that money. So

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Speaker 1: Zeke Z stack that mine. So Zeke went out there

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Speaker 1: and the first thing he noticed was all the Facebook

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Speaker 1: people that were there. They were on stage, they were

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Speaker 1: moderating panels, they were out mingling with the with the crowds.

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Speaker 1: And he said, what is going on here? And u

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Speaker 1: uh And thus began an investigation into the strange relationship

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Speaker 1: between these affiliate marketers and Facebook. Um. Facebook um, as

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Speaker 1: you know, has built a very very powerful tool to

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Speaker 1: a good people. Um and and based on all the

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Speaker 1: data that you and I and everybody else gives them

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Speaker 1: two point to billion people and the advertising community figured

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Speaker 1: out pretty quickly that this was a valuable tool for

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Speaker 1: them to let Facebook find the suckers for them. And

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Speaker 1: that began this, uh, this adventure. Okay, So this sort

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Speaker 1: of brings us to a fork in the metaphorical road

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Speaker 1: here for Facebook, because on one hand, uh, they have

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Speaker 1: said that they try to fare it out bad actors,

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Speaker 1: people who are trying to sell miracle pills that don't

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Speaker 1: work or iPhone iPhones that are free to end up

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Speaker 1: charging you EIGHTI six dollars a month for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life. UM. I'm just wondering what they knew

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Speaker 1: about the bad actors, what they did to stop them

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Speaker 1: or is there evidence that they've been actively recruiting them.

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Speaker 1: So Facebook has certain rules about things you're not supposed

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Speaker 1: to advertise on on it, and they have reviewers who

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Speaker 1: somewhere overseas or reviewing content and UH. For years they

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Speaker 1: had a very small skeletal crew of three engineers they

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Speaker 1: were set to sort of combat this UH you know,

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Speaker 1: fraud on advertising fraud. But it was a half hearted effort.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time their marketing people were attending

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Speaker 1: conferences and UH and recruiting trying to sell these ads.

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Speaker 1: It's hundreds of millions of dollars of advertising revenue. So

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Speaker 1: they had they had at best a complicated, um bifurcated

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Speaker 1: relationship with with this world, but they were looking the

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Speaker 1: other way in in in my view, it's only recently

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Speaker 1: in the last year that they're beginning to think this

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Speaker 1: more seriously. They hired a new person to sort of

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Speaker 1: come up with and they've they and lots more reviewers

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Speaker 1: and they've done But the the the ad scammeras are

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Speaker 1: smart and they have developed a program and that's in

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Speaker 1: this story. UM a guy named Rob Grin who became

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Speaker 1: sort of the king of these affiliate marketers developed a

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Speaker 1: program that allows you to cloak your ads. Um cloaking

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Speaker 1: means that when they can figure out when a Facebook

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Speaker 1: reviewer is reviewing the ad, and when they and the

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Speaker 1: Facebook reviewer clicks on the add they get an innocuous

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Speaker 1: um landing page, but everybody else falls on a on

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Speaker 1: on the actual uh scam add So so um, they

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Speaker 1: were just much smarter than Facebook. Um was able to

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Speaker 1: keep up with whatever efforts they were making. And um,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, so that's Are there any laws that were

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Speaker 1: broken here? Because on one hand, you know, people are

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Speaker 1: free to try to portray their objects, they're their their

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Speaker 1: wears as as positive as possible, and that's not considered

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Speaker 1: a clear violation. This is a clear violation of FTC

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Speaker 1: rules about fraudulent advertising. Yeah, so who's liable here? So

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Speaker 1: the FTC occasionally makes a case. They busted a ring

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Speaker 1: that in San Diego that was selling you know, fraudulent

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Speaker 1: diet pills and made they had made a undred and

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Speaker 1: seventy nine million dollars off of their their scam. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's it's it's a half hearted effort on

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Speaker 1: the regulatory agencies, half hearted effort on the part of

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Speaker 1: the technology companies and a great opportunity for all these

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Speaker 1: uh scamming marketers. This is an amazing story. I recommend

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Speaker 1: everybody read it. The main character, Grant, who's sort of

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Speaker 1: the king of these, uh, these sort of shady advertisers

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Speaker 1: and the intermediaries of them, said that when he first

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Speaker 1: realized how much money he could make, he almost felt

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Speaker 1: ill with excitement, panic, he described, panics. Yeah, but was

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Speaker 1: he minting money? And then you know, he tries to

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Speaker 1: sort of pedal back and wonder whether he should do

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Speaker 1: something better with his life. And then thanks better of that?

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Speaker 1: And thanks? What am I a communist? Robert Friedman, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being with me. And really I

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Speaker 1: recommend people read the story. Robert Friedman, Senior editor of

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Speaker 1: the Projects and Investigations team for Bloomberg News. The story

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Speaker 1: how Facebook helps shady advertisers sell fake Ellen smart pills

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Speaker 1: by Zeke Fox. There has been a lot of turnover

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Speaker 1: in President Trump's cabinet. Mike Pompeo going to be elevated,

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Speaker 1: leading President Trump to nominated Gina has Belt to replace

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Speaker 1: Pompeo as c A c I A director here with us,

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Speaker 1: Jack Divine founding partner and president of the ark And Group,

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Speaker 1: also former acting director of the c i A and

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Speaker 1: a very familiar person with Gina Haspell. Jack, Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for being here. So Gina has been a very

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Speaker 1: controversial pick. A lot of people have said that she

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Speaker 1: was in charge of torture programs, that she discarded evidence

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Speaker 1: tied to video tapes. You want to be on record

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Speaker 1: supporting her absolutely. I've known her for many, many years,

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Speaker 1: and I think the first thing you think of is

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Speaker 1: a professional and frankly, even though I've known I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you whether she would vote Republican or Democrats. She's

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Speaker 1: in that category of so many of us that don't

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Speaker 1: carry our politics into place. But when you look at

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Speaker 1: the the panorama today of who's available here, you have

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Speaker 1: someone who's been at the top of the operational director

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Speaker 1: and now the top of the agency and working apparently

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Speaker 1: very well with the Trump administration. Downtown and the workforce

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Speaker 1: is very high on her. I think she's been painted

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Speaker 1: and as more of a as a symbol of something

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Speaker 1: that is not a reality. I think the hearings are

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Speaker 1: actually going to be very conducive to straightening this out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the confirmation process, while grueling one,

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Speaker 1: I think when the facts are surface, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be far less dramatic and we're understandable when they get down,

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Speaker 1: as they are now getting down and asking specifics. I

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Speaker 1: think she will show extremely well. And I also want

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Speaker 1: want to forget the fact which I think is getting lost,

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Speaker 1: how big a deal it is to have the first

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Speaker 1: woman to actor of CIA. I watched it over forty years.

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Speaker 1: It's really quite an amazing development. Why is that a

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Speaker 1: big deal? Well, when when I first joined the agency

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Speaker 1: many years ago, the workforce had on our training class

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Speaker 1: fifty people too women, None of them went in operations. Today,

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Speaker 1: half of the agency's operators are now women, holding key

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Speaker 1: positions that are reflective of the time. Um, but they've

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Speaker 1: never been at the very top of the service. In fact,

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Speaker 1: she'll be the only the second person in the history

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Speaker 1: of the agency that's been in the operational part that

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Speaker 1: has made it all the way to become the director.

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Speaker 1: The other was Stick Helmels back in the sixties. I

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Speaker 1: think that mindset of being a careerist and having those

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Speaker 1: operational background steeped in it and at the policy level

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Speaker 1: is critical today when we're looking at what Russia is

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Speaker 1: doing either meddling in elections and taking out people with

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Speaker 1: nerve agents. I mean, we got a really tough wear world.

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Speaker 1: We better have somebody in that job that understands that world.

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Speaker 1: Want to pick up on the Russia point because we

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Speaker 1: did see earlier this week President Trump ejected sixty Russian

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Speaker 1: diplomats over the UK poisoning incident. That was more than

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Speaker 1: people had expected. How did you interpret this? Well, I

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Speaker 1: know the Russians will be living. I mean I have

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Speaker 1: seen and seen folks P and GD we called, you know,

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Speaker 1: persona non grata, you're thrown out. I mean people have kids,

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Speaker 1: they have schools that they running agents, they're doing business

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Speaker 1: at pack up out of there back home. It is

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Speaker 1: a very disruptive thing. So the institutions and my bed

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Speaker 1: I don't have the names in front of me, but

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Speaker 1: you can bet there's a high number of the sixty

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Speaker 1: that are intelligence oriented. So they are going to be

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Speaker 1: losing capability. They're closing Seattle. It's a big it's a

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Speaker 1: big deal and a big blow, and then it creates

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Speaker 1: such a h an international development. The Russians will probably respond.

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Speaker 1: So there's some toughening of the lines between the Western

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Speaker 1: Allies and Russian and I don't think this is a

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Speaker 1: good This is not going to play well for Putin

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Speaker 1: over the long haul. So one theory was that President

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Speaker 1: Trump took a harder than expected stance on Russia in

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Speaker 1: order to sort of pledge allegiance to the Allies in

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Speaker 1: return for some support as h he goes ahead with

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Speaker 1: ripping up the Iran Deal. What do you make of

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Speaker 1: that theory. I don't put a lot of stock in

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Speaker 1: that theory. I mean, you know, Tip and Neil used

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Speaker 1: to say politics is all local. I think President Trump

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Speaker 1: was looking at the winds of war, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And I think the American people are starting to get

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Speaker 1: increasingly um agitated and concerned about Russian behavior and are

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Speaker 1: going back to a mindset that's more closer to the

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Speaker 1: to the Cold War, which I think is most unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: But Putent seems to be determined to push this. And

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Speaker 1: I must say my own estimate of of Putin he

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Speaker 1: would have been flattered. I thought he was a great strategist.

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Speaker 1: Now I have great doubts about that. I really, yes,

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Speaker 1: I have. I have changed my views. And the Econdis

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Speaker 1: magazine had him on the cover is a great chess player.

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Speaker 1: I really, I'm not even sure he's a good checkers

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Speaker 1: player whoa really interesting and other uh checkers or chess player.

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Speaker 1: We're not sure Kim Jong un. And I'd love to

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Speaker 1: get your opinion on the surprise visit to Beijing. What

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Speaker 1: do you think that's about and is there any relationship

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Speaker 1: between some of the tariff talk that we've heard between

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Speaker 1: the US and China and this visit. Well, I think,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I would say Kim is at least

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Speaker 1: a good checkers player. I mean, they've they've been playing

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Speaker 1: this game for a long time where they move their

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Speaker 1: programs forward and then where they get to a plateau,

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Speaker 1: they say, well, let's let's negotiate. So I'm for the negotiations.

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Speaker 1: I've been urging it for a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's no real military option here, so you've got to

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Speaker 1: get back to the table. Who comes to the able

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Speaker 1: And as you point out, the Chinese are a major factor.

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Speaker 1: I think they're less so than many people realize, in

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Speaker 1: the sense that the Chinese had great influence for many

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Speaker 1: many decades, were the last fifteen twenty years. It's less

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Speaker 1: but more than anybody else, certainly, And they can be

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Speaker 1: very helpful. I think the Chinese are are torn on

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Speaker 1: this one, but I don't think they want to be

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Speaker 1: left on the sideline. So I think that's what we're

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Speaker 1: looking at here. Um, just taking a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a step back home. I'd love to just get your impression.

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Speaker 1: In some of the turnover that we've had in the

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Speaker 1: White House cabinet with John Bolton becoming National Security Advisor,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were saying this brings us closer

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Speaker 1: to having a war, with Ian Bremer saying that this

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Speaker 1: was the single worst day for geopolitical risk in a

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Speaker 1: long time. What's your take, Well, I think you know, again,

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Speaker 1: there's been a number of changes, and this is very common.

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Speaker 1: As you know new administrations. The end of the first year,

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Speaker 1: there's usually significant trends, and normally they move more to

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Speaker 1: the center. If there to the left, the move center left.

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Speaker 1: If they're to the right, they move center right. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's UM and the bureaucracies themselves and the

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Speaker 1: civil servants begin to gain more and more influence, and consequently,

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Speaker 1: when I look at Pompeo, the move of Pompeo, who

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Speaker 1: has been a very successful director of CIA and and

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Speaker 1: a confidant of the President, and I don't think they

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Speaker 1: knew each other very well when it started. It's now

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Speaker 1: going to be over a state. This is a good

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Speaker 1: thing for the State Department. Gina. We talked about moving

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Speaker 1: her up. You now have a team that knows Trump

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Speaker 1: works with them, and I think they're pragnantists and realists.

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Speaker 1: The Monkey, the Wrench, the person you have not mentioned

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Speaker 1: and I we're just going to say the tricky one here,

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Speaker 1: and I must tell you I'm sitting back and looking

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Speaker 1: at it doesn't seem to fit. Is his Bolton, And

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Speaker 1: I wish I knew him and could size it up

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Speaker 1: face to face. But on the surface, my big concern

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Speaker 1: with the administration early on, and it looked like the

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Speaker 1: neo cons might be making a way back into the

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Speaker 1: White House and that stopped. Yeah. Now I worry whether

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Speaker 1: if Bolton sticks to his position, whether or not we're

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Speaker 1: going to see a more oct We're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: leave it there. Founding partner and president of the ark

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Speaker 1: And Group, also former acting c I a chief. Another

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Speaker 1: grocery store chained Southeastern Grocers Chapter four filed four Chapter

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Speaker 1: eleven bankruptcy today in Delaware, Delaware, it is similar in

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Speaker 1: some ways declare Stores and Toys r US in that

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Speaker 1: it has a lot of debt linked to a two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five buy out, and here to kind of

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Speaker 1: draw the links together for us. As Jared Dillion, a

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Speaker 1: columnist for Bloomberg View, Jared, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us. He is also an editor and publisher

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Speaker 1: of The Daily Dirt Nap. Jared, can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how we should sort of view the

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Speaker 1: growing volume of bankruptcies that we've seen with LVO financed

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Speaker 1: or bought out companies UM like claires, like Toys r

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Speaker 1: US now Southeastern Grocers. You know, I think I think

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Speaker 1: that you know, it's just a small trickle at this point.

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Speaker 1: But the alarming thing is is that, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: really at the top of the expansion um and we're

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Speaker 1: seeing some of these bankruptcies, and you know, usually that's

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Speaker 1: not when you see bankruptcies like these. Now the retail

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Speaker 1: environment has changed a lot for Claires and Toys r

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Speaker 1: US and also for groceries, but you shouldn't be seeing

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Speaker 1: these deals fall apart at the top of the cycle.

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Speaker 1: So what do you make of that? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think if you look at some of these individual deals. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's just too much debt. And you know, in the

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Speaker 1: case of Claire's, they had over two billion, and this

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Speaker 1: is not it's not a big business, you know. Uh,

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Speaker 1: two billion is a lot. I just I think from

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Speaker 1: an outsider looking in, it just doesn't pass the common

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Speaker 1: sense test. Uh, toys r Rust had fion going out

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Speaker 1: the door every year and interest expense. I mean this

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Speaker 1: is you know, it depends on what your philosophy of

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Speaker 1: debt is. What a lot of people think that businesses

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Speaker 1: should borrow as much as they possibly can without going

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Speaker 1: bankrupt to maximize profits. So you're the the title of

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Speaker 1: your column was private equity, it's more like pirate equity.

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Speaker 1: And you seem to place the blame on private equity

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Speaker 1: companies for basically forcing these companies to incur as much

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Speaker 1: debt as they have. Of you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would say private equity companies have some misses, this

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Speaker 1: is to be expected, but they need a lot more

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Speaker 1: wins in order to deliver good profits. Explain where llain here.

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Speaker 1: I think I think the issue here is really one

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Speaker 1: of public opinion. I think that the private equity industry

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Speaker 1: has to be careful. Um, you know, after the Toys

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Speaker 1: r US deal, I saw some uh you know, left

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Speaker 1: leaning stuff on social media just blaming the private equity

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Speaker 1: companies for thirty three thousand job losses, which is not trivial.

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Speaker 1: And if we have a recession, if we have you know,

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Speaker 1: an honest to go to this downturn and we get

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Speaker 1: more PD deals fall apart and more layoffs, it is

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Speaker 1: going to point back directly at the private equity industry.

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Speaker 1: Um So, really like the point of the piece was

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Speaker 1: about how public opinion can turn on an industry very fast,

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Speaker 1: and I think we're already seeing the beginnings of that.

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Speaker 1: And and this sort of is analogous to what we

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Speaker 1: saw with Wall Street after the two says an innate

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Speaker 1: financial crash. I'm wondering what will be the implication if, say,

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Speaker 1: there is a rash of private equity sponsored companies that

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Speaker 1: do go bankrupt and that does do result in many

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Speaker 1: job losses. What will be the consequences if public opinions hours?

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Speaker 1: Is it more regulation? Well? I don't, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't see how regulation would really uh benefit the situation.

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Speaker 1: But I think that you know this, it's not just

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Speaker 1: Wall Street, it's the academic community. It's the c f

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Speaker 1: A program. It's it really is going to result in

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Speaker 1: a see change about how people think about debt and

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Speaker 1: how it should be used. Um, right now people are

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Speaker 1: using it to maximize profits. In the future, they might

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Speaker 1: try to minimize debt in order to maximize safety. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of the people I mentioned in the piece was

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Speaker 1: d Ramsey, And Dave Ramsey is a personal finance expert

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Speaker 1: who has a following of millions of people, and he

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Speaker 1: advocates at the consumer level to pay off your mortgage,

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Speaker 1: to pay off your car loan, to pay off your

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Speaker 1: credit card debts, and to live debt free. And it's

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Speaker 1: the corporate sector that has leveraged up massively while consumers

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Speaker 1: have de leveraged. I guess what I was trying to

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Speaker 1: get at is for Wall Street, the consequences of souring

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Speaker 1: public opinion were huge finds or more regulation and frankly

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Speaker 1: a brain drain, with a certain number of people who

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Speaker 1: would have otherwise gone to Wall Street going to say

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. What will be the sort of analogous consequence

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Speaker 1: for private equity. Well, you know, I think that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, public opinion will turn against private equity much

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Speaker 1: in the same way that it did in Wall Street.

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Speaker 1: And it could result in a brain drain. It could

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Speaker 1: you know, it could result in the government talking about

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Speaker 1: some you know, reasonable limits that can be placed on debt.

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Speaker 1: I really, you know, I can't speculate as to how

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Speaker 1: it's going to turn out. I mean I think that, um,

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Speaker 1: we're still probably a year or two away from this

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Speaker 1: cycle playing out. Jared Dillion, Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us. It's really an interesting column. Jared Dillion,

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Speaker 1: columnist with Bloomberg View, also editor and publisher of The

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Speaker 1: Daily Dirt Nap and investment strategist also at Malden Economics.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I want to turn the attention to deals.

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Speaker 1: There are a couple of big ones joining us now.

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Speaker 1: Chris Hughes, deal's columnist for Bloomberg gad Fly. It's a

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Speaker 1: commentary section for Bloomberg View in Bloomberg LP. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being with us, Chris. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank your take. I want to start with the Glaxo

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Speaker 1: Smith Klein and Novartists deal. It's a thirteen billion dollar

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Speaker 1: deal to buy some consumer mere brands from Novartis. This

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Speaker 1: is already a joint venture. Shares of both companies went up.

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Speaker 1: How is this possible that it is so universally thought

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Speaker 1: to be good for both of them? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: um Black has really gone up today and the vats

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Speaker 1: up a bit. Obviously the market helps. I mean for

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Speaker 1: both sides, it gives them certainty. For a while they've

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Speaker 1: been in this joint venture. Earlier this month, Novartis gained

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Speaker 1: the right to sell its share of it to the

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Speaker 1: blackso side everyone's been wondering, you know, when is that

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Speaker 1: going to happen, on what price? And so we know

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Speaker 1: it's happening now and we know the price. So there's

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Speaker 1: I think relief all around that we know what the

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Speaker 1: side of this is. From Blacks perspectives, there's a sort

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Speaker 1: of double release because the market also knows that if

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Speaker 1: they're doing this, they're going to be a bit more

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Speaker 1: constrained from doing other big deals. And the one that

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Speaker 1: everyone's been focusing on is the possible deal for Fizers

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Speaker 1: consumer healthcare business that could have cost up to twenty billions.

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Speaker 1: So I think blackst Shells in particular, thinking well, we

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Speaker 1: know what they're doing here with the joint venture buy out.

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Speaker 1: They're probably not going to go for Fiser in the

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Speaker 1: short term. And I think that's what's what's pleasing Clacko

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Speaker 1: shareholders today. So it's going to keep them from doing

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Speaker 1: something stupid. Well in the short term, I mean, one

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Speaker 1: would hope that shareholders are going to be on their

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Speaker 1: toes here and keeping management from doing something stupid whatever.

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Speaker 1: But UM, certainly in the short term this is this

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Speaker 1: is this is sort of big deal for clacks so

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Speaker 1: but further out they're probably going to be in quite

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Speaker 1: a good space later in the year. They're also talking

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Speaker 1: today about UM selling off some of the consumer brands

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Speaker 1: within this within this business, so that's going to sort

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Speaker 1: of shrink the deal a bit. And they're talking to

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Speaker 1: about exiting but possibly exiting UM that they're Indian subsidiaries.

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Speaker 1: That would raise some money too. So the strain of

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Speaker 1: this is certainly being offset by some other other sales

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Speaker 1: they're planning. Let's talk about the other deal of the day,

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Speaker 1: at least from my perspective, the Axo Noble deal. It's

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Speaker 1: selling its specialty chemicals unit to US private equity firm

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Speaker 1: Carlisle Group for about twelve and a half billion dollars UM.

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Speaker 1: So can you describe a little bit about what Axo

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Speaker 1: Noble is and give us your take on whether this

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Speaker 1: price is too high or too low. So about big

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Speaker 1: European paints and chemicals company, It had an unslisted bid

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Speaker 1: last year from PPG Industries of the state's very very

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Speaker 1: bitter battle there which in the end saw PPG walk away. Now,

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Speaker 1: this sale today of the specialty chemicals business for ten

415
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Speaker 1: point one billion euros about UM to our thirteen billion

416
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Speaker 1: dollars UM is actually part of really originates from that

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Speaker 1: PPG bid. One of the key aspects of access defense

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Speaker 1: against the PPG approach was that it was going to

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Speaker 1: split itself into and finally here nearly a year on UM,

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Speaker 1: we've got we've got that split taking place, with this

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Speaker 1: business being sold to m to Carlisle and on the

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Speaker 1: on the on the price, well, this is this is

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Speaker 1: a price that has been achieved after a very long auction.

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Speaker 1: Lots of private private ecty firms interested in this sort

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Speaker 1: of asset. They love, you know, unloved assets from a

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Speaker 1: big company. I did some maths on this so a

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Speaker 1: few weeks ago it looks to me like a private

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Speaker 1: exty owner at this price and probably double their money

429
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Speaker 1: if they can sort of turbo charge the performances and

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Speaker 1: if they can get some cost out and the revenue

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Speaker 1: a bit three years time, they want to be able

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Speaker 1: to double their money on this. And it caps a

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Speaker 1: quarter of some pretty big buyouts. And I'm just wondering,

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Speaker 1: are we expecting to see another big buyout quarter next?

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised. You know you've got

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Speaker 1: you've got private with a lot of dry powder. We've

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Speaker 1: seen some very ambitious deals union Leavers, spreads and in

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Speaker 1: Europe we've seen a bid for for TDC from private

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Speaker 1: equity and infrastructure investors. To know there's an appetites out

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Speaker 1: there and if they can find it, in particular unloved

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Speaker 1: assets and big corporates that are available, they're kind of

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Speaker 1: go for them, and it's necessary, they'll team up to

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Speaker 1: do it, as as Carlile's done here. Chris Hughes, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. Chris Hughes is

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Speaker 1: a deals columnist for Bloomberg, Goadfly and Unloved or perhaps

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Speaker 1: just not quite as loved. In this era of incredible

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Speaker 1: amounts of cash sitting in the coffers of private equity

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Speaker 1: firms and big investment companies looking for a place to go,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P and L podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo.

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Speaker 1: It's one before the podcast. You can always catch us

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Speaker 1: worldwide on Bloomberg Radio