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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about Beyonce.

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Speaker 1: It's right, yeah. And the last night before we came

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Speaker 1: into the studio, I posted on Facebook that we were

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Speaker 1: going to talk about Beyonce and solicited listeners thoughts on

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Speaker 1: her because we're specifically talking about Beyonce and feminism in

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Speaker 1: their response, at least as a right before walking into

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Speaker 1: the studio was so perfect because there was someone who

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Speaker 1: was all about Beyonce, saying, Yeah, she's fantastic and really

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Speaker 1: great for girls and super empowering, and another woman who

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Speaker 1: was just staunchly against Beyonce. I think she's a total

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Speaker 1: phony when it comes to feminism. Doesn't like the way

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Speaker 1: that she dress is and how bootylicious she is. And

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Speaker 1: then another woman who said Beyonce, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about Beyonce. Really, I feel like that Facebook snapshot just

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Speaker 1: sums up the Beyonce spectrum. Yeah, I um, I do

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Speaker 1: not surprisingly follow anything that Beyonce says or does. I

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Speaker 1: had kind of been aware on the periphery that, like

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Speaker 1: she had expressed some stuff about being a feminist or

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Speaker 1: about feminism in general, and I hadn't really given it

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Speaker 1: much thought because I just tend to take everything that

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Speaker 1: pop stars of any ILKs say with a grain of salt, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I just didn't bother to like look up

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Speaker 1: anything that she had said. And as I was reading, uh,

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Speaker 1: as I was reading her words that she had pinned

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Speaker 1: for the Shriver Report and reading stuff about her album

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Speaker 1: and her lyrics, I mean there was a part of

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Speaker 1: me that was admittedly impressed. I mean, you don't typically

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Speaker 1: see young email pop stars these days owning the word feminist,

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Speaker 1: and here she is calling herself one, talking about equal

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Speaker 1: pay for equal work, men needing to demand equal pay

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Speaker 1: for the women in their lives, etcetera, etcetera. So that

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Speaker 1: that by itself, like in a little microcosm, like that's impressive.

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Speaker 1: But um, I think personally that the debate over Beyonce's

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Speaker 1: feminism is the more interesting part of this topic, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily Beyonce and her feminism or not itself. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: completely agree this. This podcast isn't so much meant to

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Speaker 1: be the Beyonce biopic by any means, but more because

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Speaker 1: the blogosphere almost collapsed in on itself around Christmas, right

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Speaker 1: after she dropped her secret visual album on December right

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Speaker 1: before midnight, and everyone was just spinning their wheels saying,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, she's side being a you know, a

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Speaker 1: feminist thinker and she's using the word feminism. But she's

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Speaker 1: doing this and she's crawling around on the floor, And

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Speaker 1: what do we think about Beyonce. Is it a feminist

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Speaker 1: manifesto like Melissa Harris Perry says it is, or is

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Speaker 1: it just the same old stuff being cater you know,

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Speaker 1: catering to the male gaze. What do we make of this?

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Speaker 1: And so many people we're just talking talking about Beyondce

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Speaker 1: and feminism, Beyonce and feminism, that I felt like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should talk about it, especially because to someone made

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Speaker 1: a good point in one of these essays where it's

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Speaker 1: like it's worth talking about because Beyonce has a massive

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Speaker 1: following of girls, very few of whom are probably taking

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Speaker 1: women's studies classes, you know what I mean? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think And you know, christ and I were talking about

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Speaker 1: this and I was telling her that I think that

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Speaker 1: any time young girls and and really women, anybody uh

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Speaker 1: is exposed to the idea of feminism the word feminism,

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Speaker 1: the definition of it, the the culture surrounding it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's such a positive thing. And so if yes,

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Speaker 1: so if this pop star brings feminism into people's lives,

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Speaker 1: I think that's positive. Well, before we get into Beyonce

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Speaker 1: and feminism, I just want to offer a quick timeline

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Speaker 1: of Beyonce's rise to Beyonce dum because it's really I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's sort of in her her own galaxy at this point.

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Speaker 1: Uh So it all started, really though, in when Beyonce

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Speaker 1: was simply known as another member of Destiny's Child. This

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Speaker 1: is way back when you know, even a little bit

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Speaker 1: after the star search days. Her dad's her manager, her

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Speaker 1: mom's making all of Destiny's Child's costumes. Um. And what

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Speaker 1: was interesting to me it was the same year the

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Speaker 1: Destiney's Child and drops its first album, you have Lauren

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Speaker 1: Hill becoming the first female artist nominated for and winning

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Speaker 1: the most Grammys in a single night for her Miseducation

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Speaker 1: of Lauren Hill album. So some interesting synchronous y there.

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Speaker 1: And then she goes solo in two thousand and three

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Speaker 1: when she's twenty one, with the album Dangerously in Love,

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Speaker 1: and uh I found a New York Times review of

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Speaker 1: the album, and it was headlined solo Beyonce, She's no Ashanti,

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Speaker 1: which kind of made me feel old because I laughed

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Speaker 1: just like that. I was like, oh, yeah, Shanty. But

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Speaker 1: it was interesting though, because even back then with that

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Speaker 1: first album, the reviewer was talking about how Beyonce sort

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Speaker 1: of carved out this identity of being this fiercely independent woman,

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Speaker 1: whereas a Shanty was maybe suffering career wise because she

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Speaker 1: had always been attached to this group of, you know,

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Speaker 1: male rappers and was sort of always a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an accessory to them, whereas Beyonce has always kind

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Speaker 1: of been yeah, even in the dusty child days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she she really never hitched her wagon to a male star. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how do you like that? Although except Jay Z, well yeah,

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Speaker 1: jay z uh. And that will obviously sleep come up

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Speaker 1: in this conversation about her feminism because in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight she marries Jay Z, same year she releases

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Speaker 1: Sasha Fierce Um. Two thousand twelve, daughter Blue Ivy is born,

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Speaker 1: and in two thousand thirteen, it's kind of the year

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Speaker 1: of Beyonce. She does the Super Bowl. Miss magazine put

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Speaker 1: her on the cover, and people freaked out, and not

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Speaker 1: in a good way, because I think the cover headline

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Speaker 1: was something along the lines of Beyonce and her fierce feminism,

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Speaker 1: and I just I saw some screenshots from the Miss

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Speaker 1: magazine Facebook page and people people weren't happy. Women were

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Speaker 1: not happy about that. Um. And then yeah, just before

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Speaker 1: midnight December, Beyonce the Visual Album drops on iTunes and

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Speaker 1: then you know, breaks a ba jillion sales records. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: insanity ensues, I mean absolutely, yeah. So let's let's talk

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Speaker 1: about Beyonce and feminism. Caroline. Yeah, she uh, she had

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Speaker 1: given some quotes to people, one of those people being

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Speaker 1: British Vogue, and she'd also talked to g Q and

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Speaker 1: said things about being like kind of a feminist, like

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Speaker 1: feminist in a way, and so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: when all of this this Beyonce feminism rigamarole started after

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Speaker 1: her album came out and after she pinned an essay

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Speaker 1: for The Shriver Report. Um, a lot of people were saying, like, look,

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Speaker 1: she can't even claim the term, like she's not you know,

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Speaker 1: she's just wearing her booty shorts and dancing around. She's

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Speaker 1: not a real feminist. Um. But she told British Vogue

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Speaker 1: that I guess I am a modern day feminist. I

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Speaker 1: do believe in equality. Why do you have to choose

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Speaker 1: what type of woman you are? Why do you have

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Speaker 1: to label yourself anything? I'm just a woman and I

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Speaker 1: love being a woman. I do believe in equality and

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Speaker 1: that we have a way to go and it's something

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Speaker 1: that's pushed aside and something that we have to have

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Speaker 1: been conditioned to accept. And when that quote, you know,

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Speaker 1: it hit the blogosphere again because I feel like a

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Speaker 1: lot of this conversation is, you know, really lives largely

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Speaker 1: on the internet. Um, a lot of people were kind

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Speaker 1: of disappointed in it by the fact that she seemed

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Speaker 1: reluctant to claim feminism, she seemed to qualify it a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and also doing that thing of someone I

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Speaker 1: mean when it comes to image management, Beyonce is Queen

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Speaker 1: b for sure, and you can kind of hear echoes

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Speaker 1: in that of saying, well, you know, why do I

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Speaker 1: need to label myself? Can't I be a woman? I'm

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's that's that to me, is

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Speaker 1: something that a woman who it makes money off of

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Speaker 1: her image is going to say. So I can understand

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Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of nervousness. Maybe. Well, but

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Speaker 1: then when she was talking to g Q, on whose

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Speaker 1: cover she was photographed, you know, wearing like an to

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Speaker 1: call a crop top would be generous, she was wearing

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Speaker 1: like this almost boobearing shirt and like any tiny panties,

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Speaker 1: and but inside she gives the quote about feminism and

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Speaker 1: about how it's ridiculous that we that men are shaping

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Speaker 1: women's images and what is sexy and what it's feminine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's clear from what she says that

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Speaker 1: she she's she knows what's up. She knows about the

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Speaker 1: mail gaze and sexual objectification and how could she not

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Speaker 1: being as successful as she is as a pop star.

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Speaker 1: I think that you only need to watch maybe one

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Speaker 1: of her videos to kind of figure that out. And

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Speaker 1: she you know, I mean, she fired her dad as

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Speaker 1: her manager in two thousand eleven. She's like she wholly

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Speaker 1: owns her empire at this point. Um. But with that

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Speaker 1: latest album Beyonce, it's like it was kind of her

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Speaker 1: feminist coming out parties. Some think you could at least

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Speaker 1: say that with a couple of tracks, sure, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean she has songs that cover the danger of obsessing

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Speaker 1: about your looks about women receiving sexual pleasure and liking

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Speaker 1: to receive sexual pleasure and it being okay for feminists

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Speaker 1: to like it. She even delivers I didn't really, I

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Speaker 1: just I was like, what is she saying in French?

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Speaker 1: What is this? I did not realize she was delivering

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Speaker 1: Julianne Moore's big Lebowski monologue about women and feminist liking sex. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the translation is men think that feminists hates sex, but

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Speaker 1: it's a very stimulating and natural activity that women love.

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Speaker 1: This though, is in the middle of a song all

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Speaker 1: about I think it's off a partition where it's all

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Speaker 1: about how she and jay Z can't even get to

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Speaker 1: a party or the club that they're going to because

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Speaker 1: they're doing it in the back of the limo not

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Speaker 1: to be crashed. But I mean it's it's pretty explicit.

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Speaker 1: Hey when that happens, I'm like, I just need to

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Speaker 1: get to work. Well, then one of the lines of

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Speaker 1: the song is it took me forty five minutes to

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Speaker 1: get dressed and we're not even going to make it

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Speaker 1: there because we can't keep our hands off each other.

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Speaker 1: And she does talk about how in that song, especially

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Speaker 1: how she wants to be the girl that he wants

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Speaker 1: jay z wants. I mean, that's so easy. Well, she

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Speaker 1: also does address marriage and relationships being hard, that it's

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Speaker 1: okay to have problems and doubts and you know, should

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Speaker 1: we get married, blah blah blah, all that stuff, And

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Speaker 1: she even says that she talks about being more than

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Speaker 1: quote just his little wife. Yeah and and flawless, to

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Speaker 1: which I think of what got a lot of people

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Speaker 1: talking the most about Beyonce in feminism. She has a

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Speaker 1: line in the beginning of the song talking about how

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Speaker 1: you know, just because she might refer to herself as

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Speaker 1: Mrs Carter, don't basically, don't get it twisted. This is

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Speaker 1: all her stuff, this is her business, right. But that

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Speaker 1: song also features the much talked about speech It was

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Speaker 1: actually a Ted talk by Nigerian born writer Chimamanda Negozi

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Speaker 1: Adici uh talking about feminism and the definition of feminism,

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Speaker 1: but how she Adici would amend that definition to include

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Speaker 1: some more things. Yeah, and so for just a little

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Speaker 1: SoundBite of what Beyonce samples from that Ted talk. We

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Speaker 1: teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller. We

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Speaker 1: say to girls, you can have ambition, but not too much.

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Speaker 1: You should aim to be successful, but not too successful,

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Speaker 1: otherwise you will threaten the man. She says, we teach

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Speaker 1: girls that they cannot be sexual beings the way boys are.

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Speaker 1: Feminist as a person who believes in the social, political,

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Speaker 1: and economic equality of the sexes. And meanwhile, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this video Beyonce is I mean, she's she's just

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Speaker 1: like dancing and she's so angry and like making just

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Speaker 1: like she's so fierce. Is so overused these days, I

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Speaker 1: feel like, but she's fierce in that video as this

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Speaker 1: you know, woman is going on and on about feminism.

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Speaker 1: So people are like, what whoa, yeah, this is revolutionary.

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Speaker 1: But then other people being like, but she's gotta just

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Speaker 1: you know, booty shaken, right, and and you know, we

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Speaker 1: talked about how she had penn and essay for The

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Speaker 1: Shriver Report, which is Maria Shriver's website, in which Beyonce

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Speaker 1: talks about how equality doesn't exist, but it will be achieved,

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Speaker 1: uh quote when men and women are granted equal pay

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Speaker 1: and equal respect. And she talks about how attitudes about

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Speaker 1: women being less than are drilled into our heads from

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Speaker 1: an early age. So a common refrain that our podcast

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Speaker 1: listeners would be familiar with. But one thing too that

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Speaker 1: jumped out to me was that she used her legal

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Speaker 1: name in that essay, which is Beyonce Cardinals. She's not

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Speaker 1: Mrs Carter, as was the name of her World to War.

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Speaker 1: That she also got a lot of flak about that.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about too. But you know it's an intentional hyphenation, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean jay Z that's his legal name now too,

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Speaker 1: Seawn Cardinals as a jay Z Carter. Yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: the same, right, jay Z. Um. But as all of

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Speaker 1: this is happening in December and the first of this year,

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Speaker 1: this just sparks all of this debate, and like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: the conversation about debate and the fact that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about it in the way that we're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: When I say we am going to say feminists at large,

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Speaker 1: not that we represent all of them by any means, um,

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Speaker 1: but these conversations, I think are say a lot about

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Speaker 1: modern feminism, and it's worthwhile to look into the substance

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Speaker 1: of these conversations, almost Beyonce's side, but not Beyonce's side. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about this, this debate and the

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Speaker 1: people who say, absolutely, Beyonce plus feminism equals amazing, and

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Speaker 1: the people who say, Nope, sorry, Beyonce, you are you're

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Speaker 1: not cutting it. When we come right back from a

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Speaker 1: quick break and now the back to the podcast. So

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Speaker 1: before the break, we were just walking you through the

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Speaker 1: development of this really humongous, explosive internet conversation basically about

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Speaker 1: Beyonce and her feminism and how genuine it is, because

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Speaker 1: basically the argument boils down to, no, she's not a

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Speaker 1: real feminist. It's just marketing and pr so she can

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Speaker 1: make more money and get her name in the news.

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Speaker 1: And no, she's totally a feminist. And not only is

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Speaker 1: she a feminist, but she's advocating for empowerment and equality

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Speaker 1: for women, particularly women of color. Yeah, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: on the yes side of the argument, I mean you

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Speaker 1: can go to I mean, there are plenty of feminists

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Speaker 1: who automatically uphold Beyonce as an incredible, amazing, empowering icon,

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Speaker 1: pop icon and now feminist icon because she is as

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Speaker 1: successful as she is, because you know her, she is

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Speaker 1: so fearlessly bears her body and owns her business and

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Speaker 1: you know, sing songs about independence, and I mean, off

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Speaker 1: the you know, most recent album, Beyonce, you have songs

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Speaker 1: like pretty Hurts where she's acknowledging that, Yeah, even though

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Speaker 1: she is Beyonce and looks like Beyonce, body image is

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Speaker 1: still something that affects us all. And what better person

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Speaker 1: do you hear something like that from then Beyonce? You

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Speaker 1: know right? Yeah? Elan a document from Time magazine talks

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Speaker 1: about how Beyonce is singing about love and sex more

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Speaker 1: boldly than ever, peppering those songs with messages about independence

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Speaker 1: and motherhood and we're eating it up. You know, these

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Speaker 1: are things. Beyonce is a figure who is supposedly showing uh,

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Speaker 1: young girls and women that it is okay to be

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Speaker 1: a vibrant sexual being and be a mother and be

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Speaker 1: a wife, but also be that independent woman that you

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Speaker 1: want to be. And Documen also talks to about how

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Speaker 1: she kind of represents a generational divide perhaps in feminism

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Speaker 1: where some people might not be so on board with it,

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Speaker 1: because in a way, she's her own type of feminist.

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Speaker 1: Doctuman writes, we millennials are not of the traditional generation

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Speaker 1: of feminist who believed that a woman needs a man

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Speaker 1: like a fish needs a bicycle. Yeah, and so Documan

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Speaker 1: talks about how Beyonce is sort of at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of this, this younger generation of feminists who maybe aren't

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Speaker 1: fighting against the idea of I don't know, men, of relationships,

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Speaker 1: of marriage, of the traditional bonds of motherhood, all of

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Speaker 1: that stuff. Maybe she's not fighting against that so hard.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she's just fighting for equality, and she's fighting for

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Speaker 1: it in her own way. So there are plenty of

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Speaker 1: people on on this side of the conversation saying, go Beyonce,

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Speaker 1: Beyonce for the win. But then there are also plenty

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Speaker 1: of people saying, even based on this most recent album

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Speaker 1: in which yes, fantastic that you sampled Chimamanda Negoziadici, but hey,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about drunk in Love and something that jay

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Speaker 1: Z says in that and that she also sang along

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Speaker 1: with when they opened the Grammys. Yeah, so his part

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Speaker 1: in that song, he he says, I'm Ike Turner, now

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Speaker 1: eat the cake aname And for those not aware, that

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Speaker 1: is from a scene in the movie What's Love Got

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Speaker 1: to Do With It about Tina Turner, and basically Ike

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Speaker 1: Turner is shoving literally shoving cake in her face. It's

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Speaker 1: a moment of you know, terror, when he's basically abusing

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Speaker 1: her in public. And so a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: left like, basically, you know, the record scratched for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, Like what. A lot of people are saying,

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Speaker 1: that's just part of the song. It's just it's just music,

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Speaker 1: you know, let it go. But there are other people

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Speaker 1: who were saying, how can you call yourself a feminist

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Speaker 1: but condone your husband's singing about spousal abuse in your song? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, And and for people who haven't heard Drunken Love,

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Speaker 1: first of all, you probably heard Drunken Love and they

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Speaker 1: might not have realized it from the outside. The first

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Speaker 1: time I listened to it, and I wasn't aware of

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Speaker 1: that line or and especially not with that lineman. I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, Beyonce and jay Z, I mean, talk

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Speaker 1: about an argument for a married couple because they are

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Speaker 1: having sex in a bathtub and she is making surfboard

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Speaker 1: references and riding waves and I feel like I can't

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Speaker 1: even talk anymore about it on this podcast. Um. And

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Speaker 1: in a way, it's like, oh, good for them. They

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Speaker 1: are a married couple with a kid and they still

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Speaker 1: have crazy nuts together, so what's wrong with that? But then, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the record scratch so loudly. For me. Once someone actually

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Speaker 1: tweeted at me about this line, I was like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: And this is when it gets in. We started getting

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Speaker 1: into the territory of trying to jump inside of Beyonce

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Speaker 1: and jay Z's brains and be like, well, is this

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Speaker 1: Maybe this is like a dynamic in their relationship. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they're like into b D s M, or maybe this

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Speaker 1: means something to them that it doesn't mean to us.

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Speaker 1: It's still for someone again who is so hyper vigilant

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Speaker 1: of image management, it's like, what what has that got

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Speaker 1: to be in there? Yeah? And I mean I think

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Speaker 1: that's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind. Whenever

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Speaker 1: you're analyzing anything that fiance says, does say things, whatever,

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Speaker 1: you have to remember how carefully she manages her own

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a woman who has you know,

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Speaker 1: basically staff photographers and videographers with her at all times.

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Speaker 1: This is a woman who you know, got her people

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Speaker 1: to tell BuzzFeed to take down unflattering images of her

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Speaker 1: when her face was doing something weird. Um, So this

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Speaker 1: is not just like this is not ignorance, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know what this is, but it's

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Speaker 1: the choice. I mean, it's it's a deliberate choice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I I mean, I just you have to wonder why.

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Speaker 1: And then um a Ceba Solomon over at color lines

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Speaker 1: dot Com does think that this is essentially well condoning

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Speaker 1: spousal abuse or domestic abuse at worst, but at best

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Speaker 1: just not thinking it's a big deal. And she also

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Speaker 1: points out that during Beyonce's Grammy performance of the song

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Speaker 1: with jay Z, like jay Z is fully dressed, but

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Speaker 1: Beyonce is like half naked and soaking wet. She does say,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's that's her prerogative. Women should be allowed

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Speaker 1: to dress however they want to dres us where whatever

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Speaker 1: they want to wear or don't wear, however, like this

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Speaker 1: is an image choice that she's choosing to make. Well,

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Speaker 1: And if you're so surprised by the Grammys, Like, how

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Speaker 1: are you that surprised? Because that's the video, that's the

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Speaker 1: aesthetic of the video. She's writhing around on the beach

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Speaker 1: in lingerie and jay Z is in a T shirt

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Speaker 1: right and nothing new sure, And and as we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about in just a second, like you know, we're people

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Speaker 1: as upset at Madonna right right right? And also side no,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to see jay z shirt listening he

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Speaker 1: cuts a good figure in a tuxedo. I'll leave it

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Speaker 1: at that. But moving away from aesthetic choices lyrical choices

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Speaker 1: to more of the production side of things. Uh. David

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Speaker 1: Levycy writing at Policy Mike, also points out that, hey, Beyonce,

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Speaker 1: if you're all about girls running the world and what's not,

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Speaker 1: why don't you help some ladies out in the production

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Speaker 1: of your music. Yeah. He points out that out of

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Speaker 1: the forty five artists listed in the liner notes to

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Speaker 1: this latest album, which includes writers, producers, directors, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: only six are women, and he wrote that this is

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Speaker 1: a surprising move for the pop star who very deliberately

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Speaker 1: chose the all female backing band The Sugar Momas for

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Speaker 1: her Super Bowl halftime show last year and for her

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Speaker 1: Mrs Carter tour side note. Um a friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: I was talking to a friend of mine about this

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Speaker 1: topic and he is a musician, and he was like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I you know, I kind of think it's

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Speaker 1: stupid that she pulled together this all female band. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, what do you mean, Like, please please

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Speaker 1: qualify your statement, and he said, look, I just I

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Speaker 1: know some of the guys that used to perform with her,

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Speaker 1: and they were better. They're just better musicians. And I

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Speaker 1: thought about it for a second, and I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't care because I personally, I think if if

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Speaker 1: somebody's going to make a statement along the lines of

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Speaker 1: empowering women and giving jobs to women and putting women

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Speaker 1: in your face who were like b A musicians, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. I'm okay with her choosing musicians

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Speaker 1: who may not be as good as the guys who

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Speaker 1: she was playing with, but they're still amazing, right, Because

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Speaker 1: that's clearly in Beyonce's own words, because that's one thing

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Speaker 1: that's often left out these conversations or Beyonce's own words

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Speaker 1: um when she talks about why she pulled together the

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Speaker 1: Sugar Mama's It wasn't necessarily because she was looking for

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Speaker 1: the best musicians out there. She said, quote when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, I wish I had more females who played

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Speaker 1: instruments to look up to. I played piano for like

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Speaker 1: a second, but then I stopped. I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: do something which would inspire other young females to get

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Speaker 1: involved in music. So I put together in all women

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Speaker 1: bands and I mean, I'm thirty and I think that's

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Speaker 1: so cool. Like, let's you know, that's not even to

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Speaker 1: talk about a twelve year old girl out there who

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Speaker 1: might think, oh wow, look at those women being powerful

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Speaker 1: and amazing and sweaty up on stay age, like rocking

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Speaker 1: out with Beyonce at the freaking super Bowl, Like I

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Speaker 1: think that's amazing. Yeah, and giving her the benefit of

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Speaker 1: the doubt too, you can also argue that she is

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to make every single or

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't want to make every single hiring decision for

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Speaker 1: her massive team, right, And Christine osa Zua was blogging

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Speaker 1: about this, and she said, look, it's just it's impractical

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Speaker 1: to put all of that weight on one human being,

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Speaker 1: one woman, Beyonce, to sort of be the savior for

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Speaker 1: all women. She can't lift everyone up. You know. She

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Speaker 1: this is her career, and like we've said, she's managing it.

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Speaker 1: She's making all these decisions, but it's not like she

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Speaker 1: can you know, has every ounce of control over every

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Speaker 1: aspect of who she performs with. You know. And when

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Speaker 1: I read that very pertinent point made by osa Zua,

424
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: it also resonated me in terms of like, yeah, this

425
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: is like, this isn't just about the music industry. We

426
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: can't really hold up as a beacon of hope for

427
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: radically changing the lives of women everywhere, and yet we

428
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: want to. Yeah, I mean we want to. It's it's

429
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: like the anger that comes out of this is almost saying,

430
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: you disappoint me when it's not her responsibility to be

431
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: some feminist savior. But at the same time, too, you'll

432
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: have people say, well, okay, with all of the power

433
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: that she does wield in the pop world and that influence,

434
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: you can't argue that, you know, she doesn't have massive influence. Sure,

435
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: so what about the decision to, for instance, title her

436
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: tour the Mrs Carter Show, which, again, that is a choice,

437
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: that was a deliberate choice. Yeah, and this is a

438
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: woman who has said that she wouldn't be the woman

439
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: she is today if she didn't go home to that man,

440
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: And a lot of people are saying, oh, you're defining

441
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 1: yourself by this man, You're defining yourself by your marriage.

442
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: And she's not entirely disagreeing. She is her own woman.

443
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: She is a powerful, intelligent businesswoman, but she also happens

444
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: to be crazy in love with jay Z. Yeah, and

445
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: and some have said to hey, listen. Barack Obama has

446
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: said similar things about Michelle in terms of hey, I

447
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't be standing here, as you know, Commander in chief

448
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: if it weren't for my best friend of you know,

449
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: X number of years and the person who has supported

450
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: me through all of this um And she did actually

451
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: speak to the decision to name the tour the Mrs

452
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: Carter Tour in that interview with British, but we sided earlier.

453
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: She said, quote, I feel like Mrs Carter is who

454
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: I am, but more bold and more fearless than I've

455
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: ever been. It comes from my knowing my purpose and

456
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: really meeting myself. Once I saw my child, I was like, okay,

457
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: this is what you were born to do. And this

458
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: is what really stood out to me. She said, the

459
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 1: purpose of my body became completely different, and that just

460
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: blew my mind because underlying all of these, this whole

461
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: conversation about it is she doesn't she is she really

462
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: what she says she is. In terms of feminism, it

463
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: all circles back to her body and how we view

464
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: her body and how she wants us to view her body,

465
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: and whether she's putting her body on display for herself

466
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: or for other men, or just for jay Z, you know,

467
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: and the whole issue of how do we reconcile her

468
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: sexuality and her commodifying her own body and feminism. Yeah,

469
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: and a lot of people would argue that, look, hey,

470
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: it's just not feminist. You're not a feminist for putting

471
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: on some slinky body suit and dancing around. And one

472
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: of those people who spoke out about that was Anna Holmes,

473
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: who's the founder of Jezebel, And you know, she says

474
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: that maybe this is like a younger feminist game, Like,

475
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: it's not of her more conservative, older feminist perspective to

476
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, dance around in basically a bikini. Um. She

477
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: says that, you know, it's it feels like a performance

478
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: just for the benefit of men. And similarly, Ernest Owens,

479
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: who is an energy aiment media journalists, writes that for

480
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: a woman who has mastered the art of being grown

481
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: and sexy, never has Beyonce in the past relied so

482
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: heavily on her physicality to let that overshadow the divine

483
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: talent that many praise her for religiously. And I can

484
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: definitely see that in this new album. I mean the

485
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: choice to make it a visual album, making seventeen different

486
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: videos that are you know that that are a lot

487
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: about her and what she looks like in her body,

488
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: to where you're focusing so much on what she's wearing,

489
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: how she's moving, how her she's presenting her body that

490
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: it kind of you kind of don't think so much

491
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: about her voice. Yeah, and Owens was definitely arguing that

492
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: and saying things along the lines of, you know, we

493
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: don't wonder what kind of underwear jay Z is wearing

494
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,239
Speaker 1: when he's performing. Some of us in this room right

495
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: now don't about Jac's underwear, and he Owens is arguing

496
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: that doing so. Doing so really does oversimplify Beyonce pop

497
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: stars women in general, you know. He it seems like

498
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of you know, Owen's being torn, like,

499
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, she should be allowed to dance and wear

500
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: whatever she's wearing when she dances, because it's her body

501
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 1: and it's her thing or whatever. But also we're relying

502
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: too much on that visual We're reading too much into it,

503
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: We're making assumptions about her. We're not thinking about how

504
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: she's a tenacious businesswoman. We're just thinking about how good

505
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 1: she looks in lingerie. Yeah, it's kind of the question

506
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: of is even if it is Beyonce telling girls that

507
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: feminism is that everyone should be a feminist. According to

508
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: show Amanda Negoziadici, is that message really going to be

509
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: all that powerful if she's saying and while she's on

510
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,479
Speaker 1: her knees right, Yeah, a lot. That has been a

511
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: lot of people's argument. It's like, yes, say whatever you want,

512
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: but you're still like practically wearing nothing on the cover

513
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: of g Q. You like your two messages aren't driving. Yeah,

514
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: but at the same time too, it's that same embrace,

515
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: clear embrace of her own body. I mean, Beyonce clearly

516
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: loves looking like Beyonce, and I would too. Um And

517
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: Brittany Cooper, who's the professor Rudgers, says that he actually

518
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: her videos are empowering. Quote. I think it's rough sque

519
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: but I think she's asking us to think about what

520
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: it means for black women to be sexual on our terms.

521
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: And that's something that we haven't touched on at all

522
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: in this conversation up to this point. Is race, because

523
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: we're talking not only about a pop icon, but we

524
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: were talking about a black pop icon, and I think

525
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: that that does color people's perspectives of that, and not

526
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: necessarily in a positive way. And along those same lines,

527
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: Semita Marco pagy over at Feminist NG talks about how

528
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: the album made us us women of color feel really

529
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: sex the and that's powerful. That means something, she said,

530
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: whereas the rest of popular culture may not have that

531
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: impact on us as young women of color. It's that

532
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: whole issue of the historical perception of black women, their sexuality,

533
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 1: what their sexuality means, who it's for. It's like it's

534
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: almost as if they haven't been a part of their

535
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: own discussion. Yeah, And one part of the her visual

536
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: album that jumps out to me in this part of

537
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: the conversation is the opening of Partition where she's sitting there, um,

538
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, having having a fancy brunch and she intentionally

539
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: picks up a napkin and drops it in order to

540
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: usher immediately this white maid to come over and pick

541
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: it up. And one of the analyzes that I was

542
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: reading about that was basically like, in a way, it

543
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: seems like that's Beyonce kind of giving the middle finger too.

544
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: You know, white women who you know, want to have

545
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: control over how she displays her body and how she

546
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: moves it. Sure, well, that's that's part of this argument too,

547
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: is that a lot of women of color are speaking

548
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: out saying that white feminists are telling us how to

549
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: do things, that we're not doing feminism right, we're not

550
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: doing our bodies right, we're not doing sexuality right. And

551
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of these women say they've had enough.

552
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: And I fully agree that, Um, that it's complicated, which

553
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: is part of why I wanted to talk about this,

554
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: But um, I am not on board with saying Beyonce

555
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: is not a feminist because she dresses like X because

556
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: that's a lot of body policing that's going on. And

557
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: also you swing it to the other side, and you

558
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: have feminists who have similarly said, oh, you know, it

559
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: must the women who are wearing jobs, who are covering

560
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: their bodies completely, you're not showing enough skin and that's

561
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: not feminist. So it's like, well, does this mean that

562
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: there is a specific way that is going to be

563
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: acceptable for me to dress according to your politics, because

564
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: apparently there's a uniform and from what I know of feminism,

565
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: that's that's a nope, that's not the way it is

566
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: or not the way it should be. No, I absolutely agree.

567
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: My uniform happens to be Liz Lemon plaid shirts and cardigans. Same.

568
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: But that's just me, that's just yah. Yeah, I prefer

569
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: stretchy pants and an oversized T shirt, you know. But no,

570
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: I I totally agree. I I think it's a moot

571
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: point to say that you are or are not a

572
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: feminist based on how you dress and how you physically

573
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: present yourself. I think there's way way more to it

574
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: than that. And you mentioned Madonna earlier, though Caroline and

575
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: Tamara Winfrey Harris made a really astute observation about the

576
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: difference between how white sexuality female sexuality is often judged

577
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: as something that is controlled and intentional. Madonna is hailed

578
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: as this amazing feminist who you know, she she wanted

579
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: to get naked and wear her cone braws and writhe

580
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: on the floor, and that's totally fine because that's you know,

581
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: that's controlled. She's breaking boundaries, whereas black sexuality, for so long,

582
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, in in the most racist sense, has been

583
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: deemed as animalistic, and so for Beyonce, it's thoughtless, it's

584
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: not a choice. She's you know, she's dressing like that

585
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: simply for the male gaze. It must be that, right,

586
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: Which that's when it's like, oh well, well it is complicated.

587
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: Sarah Jackson, who's a race and media scholar at Northeastern,

588
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: talks about how this whole argument and the criticism ignores

589
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: the fact that there are limited choices available to women

590
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: in the entertainment industry, and she says, the limited ways

591
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: Beyonce is allowed to express her sexuality because of her

592
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: gender and her race, that's I mean, that's another layer

593
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. I think the essay that resonate the

594
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: most with me about this as written by Anne Helen Peterson,

595
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: who spoiler alert, we're having on stuff I've never told

596
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: you very soon Google her her blog is amazing, um.

597
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: But she sort of talked about the ambivalence of this

598
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: whole issue because on the one hand, she really enjoys

599
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: Beyonce as a pop star, but she can't so easily

600
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: reconcile the feminism that she is in a way selling.

601
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, she's she's commodifying feminism along with

602
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: all of her songs and her looks and everything like that.

603
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: It's now part of the package. And while you know,

604
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: it's good that she's talking about it. At the same time,

605
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: we can ask for better, can't we maybe a more

606
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: legitimately across the word empowering portrayal of women. I don't know, yeah, um,

607
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: but I mean along that line, we do need to

608
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: ask ourselves why we're asking so much of Beyonce herself. Like,

609
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, this is a woman, like okay, like, let's

610
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: break this down real quick. This is a woman who

611
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: is like a self managed the jillionaire, who obviously intelligent, driven,

612
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: all of that good stuff. She's also sexy, she's got

613
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: a great body, she is in love with her husband,

614
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: you know, she has she's a mother and she's incredibly

615
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: dedicated to her kid. So, like, you know, it's it

616
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: seems like in all of these conversations, you know, there's

617
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: always somebody talking about having it all and can you

618
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: have it all? And here's Beyonce, who you know, has

619
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: so much, and we expect her to be things that

620
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. Maybe it's just not even fair

621
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: of all the things that people are expecting her to

622
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 1: be because she is so much and she does so much,

623
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: she's not the answer to our problems. Well, and whenever

624
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: we start looking around for a perfect feminist. That's the

625
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: most pointless exercise, because who among us is that's not

626
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: That's not really the point. Um. I also liked what

627
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: Tommy Givenson, UM Rookie mag founder had to say about

628
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: it too. She was like, if anything, I'm grateful for

629
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: the fact that, I mean, Beyonce's clearly working some things out,

630
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: and but she's doing it publicly. And this album to

631
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: her was a step forward, because I mean, it does

632
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: show us all of those sides that you just mentioned

633
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: of being sexy, ambitious, working out feminism, being married, having insecurities,

634
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: being a mother, all of it right there. And she

635
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: handed it to us and was like, well there you go.

636
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: And and people, we people are saying it's not it's

637
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: not good enough. Yeah, but you know it's like, well,

638
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: who who are you? I don't know who are you?

639
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: Who is she? What? You know? Yeah, After a day

640
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: of reading a lot of stuff about this um and

641
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: feeling just torn about the fact that this entire conversation

642
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: was going on, one thing I put on tumbler was that, hey,

643
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: you know she is She said that she's a feminist.

644
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: And she said that to an audience of girls like

645
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: we said, who who are probably not that exposed to

646
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: feminism and gender equality. And I would hate for the

647
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: outcome of this to be those same girls just hearing

648
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: feminists say Nope, not good enough. Because if Beyonce is

649
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: not good enough Beyonce can't you know, measure up to

650
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: the standards that we apparently have for her, then who

651
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: among us can? Yeah? And I think it is so unproductive,

652
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: both in my own life and Beyonce's life, And you

653
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: know whatever, It's so unproductive to just have a conversation

654
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: about are you a good enough feminist? How about how

655
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: about women supporting women? How about supporting Beyonce for her decisions?

656
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: And just say, right on, sister, you know, good for

657
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: you for speaking out. I mean, at least she's I mean,

658
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: look at her career. She's she's doing it for herself,

659
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, and Blue Ivy doing it for Blue. That's

660
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: but one final question though, Caroline, why do you why

661
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: do you think this caused such an uproar? Why do

662
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: you think we care so much? She's one woman? Yeah,

663
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: I think, Um, so, okay, this is gonna be a

664
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: really rough analogy. But so like when I walk into

665
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: the break room at the office and I see that

666
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: someone has brought in cupcakes. I'm like, oh my god, cupcakes. Wait, wait, okay,

667
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: there will be other cupcakes. Like, I don't have to

668
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: get super excited about eating all of these cupcakes and

669
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: putting them all in my face. Do you see where

670
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: I'm going with this. I think that there are women

671
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: out there, men whoever, people out there who are so

672
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: excited at the prospect of some big star or some

673
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: big public person um taking on the issue of feminism

674
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: saying I'm a feminist. And then, however, when that person

675
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: is not exactly on point or not exactly falling into

676
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: line with what this group of viewers thinks should be feminist,

677
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: I think people get so upset and angry at that person,

678
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: and that's not fair. Yeah. I think in a way

679
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: this conversation has become has spun out into a way

680
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: that we a lot of women of our generation are

681
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: working out our ownings societies about gender and feminism and

682
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: success onto Beyonce. You know, there will be other cupcakes,

683
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: There will be other feminists. Not everybody is perfect. I

684
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 1: think that, um, we have to let people be who

685
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 1: they are and not be angry at them for them

686
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: failing us. Personally in some way. Right, But I will

687
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: tell you this, Caroline, there will never be another Beyonce.

688
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: That's right? Did I was? I? Did I go jogging

689
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: to Beyonce this morning? Yes? I did? Yes, I did.

690
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: That was what I got pumped up for this podcast.

691
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: So I want to open it up though, to listeners.

692
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: I'm so curious to know what other people think about this,

693
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: um Beyonce, share your thoughts mom Step Discovery dot com,

694
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: especially for younger listeners out there who might have, you know,

695
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: been growing up on a steady diet of Beyonce. What

696
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: do you think about all of this? Because I feel

697
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: like a lot of the conversation is dominated by women

698
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: our age and you know who are like what two,

699
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: Caroline uh So, write us mom Stuff at Discovery dot

700
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: com or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast

701
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: or message us on Facebook and we have a couple

702
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you from Facebook right now. Well,

703
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: I am loving the feedback that we're getting on coffee

704
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: and the kind of barista bro Rista culture. And I

705
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Sarah who says on bro

706
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: Rista's I used to be a barista and both of

707
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: my girlfriends as well, when we go to a coffee

708
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: house and see a guy behind the counter, we assume

709
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: our coffee will not be good, that only a woman

710
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: can make a proper espresso drink. I know that it's sexist,

711
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: but women have been better at pulling shots and creating

712
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: a perfect coffee in our experience, so I had no

713
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: idea that it was a man's world for coffee. Great episode,

714
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: and it was nice to see the other side of it.

715
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: So thank you, Sarah. Well, I've got one here from Tara,

716
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: who is a female barista, who says I can confirm

717
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: one of what you say is true. We barristas, I'll

718
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: know differences in customers based on gender and age. We

719
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 1: see teenage girls approaching, we joke about how many frappuccinos

720
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: were about to make. When we see a large group

721
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: of middle aged women, we immediately start foaming a large

722
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: picture of non fat milk, because more likely than not

723
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: we will be serving a bunch of skinny lattes. We

724
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: use this to our advantage when upselling customers. For example,

725
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: of a woman orders a black coffee, I can almost

726
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: always raise the price of the drink by suggestively selling

727
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: some vanilla or hazelnuts. Syrup. When I ask men if

728
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: they want to flavor in their black coffee, it is

729
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: almost always resounding no, followed by a look that suggests

730
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: I questioned this very manhood by suggesting that he might

731
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: like a flavored coffee. Additionally, I can increase the average

732
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: ticket of any man ordering a black coffee by asking

733
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: if he'd like to make his coffee stronger by adding

734
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: shots of espresso. Many people believe they're extra classy and

735
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: ordering a straight Americano why love americanos or black coffee,

736
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: But in reality they're missing out on all the things

737
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: we as verisas can create with different flavors and coffees.

738
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: Many men will never know the deliciousness of a salted

739
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: caramel mocha simply because it's considered feminine. Interestingly, all but

740
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: one barrest at her coffee shop is female. That being said,

741
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: every woman experiences sexual harassment on the job, at least

742
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: at my place of employment, and while we were obviously

743
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,479
Speaker 1: not allowed to scream in any paying customers, we will

744
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: most certainly all caps give you decaf. However, it is

745
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: seen as an act of solidarity between female barristos to

746
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: decaf the creepy dude who just harassed your coworker. I

747
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: wrote her back and told her that I was so

748
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: glad she found a legal, a legal kind of tame

749
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: way to get back at creeps decaffing. I like it well.

750
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: If you have thoughts to share with us, Mom stuff

751
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is our email address and for

752
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: links to all of our social media contacts, blog post videos,

753
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: and all of our podcast you can head on over

754
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more

755
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how

756
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com