WEBVTT - Sam Bankman-Fried Wants to Save the World

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. One of the most interesting people in the crypto

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<v Speaker 1>world right now is Sam Bankman Freed. He's thirty years old,

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<v Speaker 1>founded the crypto exchange FDx a few years back, and

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<v Speaker 1>today he is worth around twenty billion dollars according to Forbes.

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<v Speaker 1>And yet he still lives with roommates and drives a

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<v Speaker 1>Toyota Corolla. And maybe the most interesting thing about Sam,

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<v Speaker 1>it's actually not that into crypto. He didn't get into

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<v Speaker 1>it because he thinks bitcoin is going to replace the dollar,

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<v Speaker 1>or that we're on the brink of some revolution in

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<v Speaker 1>the very meaning of money. He got into crypto so

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<v Speaker 1>that he could make as much money as possible and

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<v Speaker 1>then give almost all of it away. So when Sam

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<v Speaker 1>thinks about really big problems, he doesn't necessarily think about

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<v Speaker 1>how much the price of bitcoin is falling, or that

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<v Speaker 1>a big stable coin fell apart a few weeks ago.

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<v Speaker 1>He thinks about things like how to save humanity from extinction.

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<v Speaker 1>How many people will live if we play our cards

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<v Speaker 1>right as a world like in the ninetieth percentile outcome,

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<v Speaker 1>How many people will live in the future dancers trillions,

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<v Speaker 1>probably maybe hundreds of hundreds of trillions. I'm Jacob Goldstein

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<v Speaker 1>and this is what's your problem? The show where entrepreneurs

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<v Speaker 1>and engineers talk about how they're going to change the

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<v Speaker 1>world once they solve a few problems. My guest today

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<v Speaker 1>is Sam Bankman Free, and his problem is this, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you save the world. Before we get to the interview,

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to take a minute here and set

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<v Speaker 1>up this one big idea. This really useful intellectual framework

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<v Speaker 1>that drives almost everything Sam does. It's called expected value.

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<v Speaker 1>I try to use it a lot because I think

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<v Speaker 1>it sort of is the default correct way in some

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<v Speaker 1>senses to calculate something like if you're just trying to

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<v Speaker 1>do a generic calculation, I think it's usually the right

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<v Speaker 1>thing to use. You could understand expected value by understanding

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<v Speaker 1>how Sam decided to start his company, the crypto Exchange FTX.

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<v Speaker 1>He was working as a trader making millions of dollars,

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<v Speaker 1>and when he thought about starting FTX, he knew there

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<v Speaker 1>was a really good chance it might fail. It might

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately be worth zero. But on the other hand, if

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<v Speaker 1>it succeeded, it could be worth tens of billions of dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>So here is a slightly oversimplified version of how you

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<v Speaker 1>would use expected value in this case, say, Sam thought

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<v Speaker 1>there was only a one percent chance that his exchange

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<v Speaker 1>would be really successful, but that if it were really successful,

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<v Speaker 1>it would make him twenty billion dollars. The expected value

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<v Speaker 1>of starting the exchange is the probability of it being

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<v Speaker 1>successful one percent times the value if that success happens

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<v Speaker 1>twenty billion dollars, which comes out to two hundred million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars a lot. So in twenty nineteen, Sam started FTX,

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<v Speaker 1>and Sam told me there is a really important lesson

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<v Speaker 1>here about expected value. One of the sort of takeaways

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<v Speaker 1>that often ends up coming from really thinking hard and

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<v Speaker 1>critically about expected values is that you should go for

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<v Speaker 1>it way more than is generally understood. Go big. You

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<v Speaker 1>should really go really big, even if you probably will

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<v Speaker 1>fail and wind up with zero. That's absolutely right. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think one of the intuitions for why that's the case,

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<v Speaker 1>for why I think going big is often the right

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do well if you think about it, like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you've got obviously a number of options available

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<v Speaker 1>to you. Somewhere on the far right hand side of

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<v Speaker 1>distributions is like the best possible thing, meaning the really

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<v Speaker 1>good outcomes. That's right, the best possible thing you could

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<v Speaker 1>imagine happening, and the best possible thing is probably really good.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's probably orders of magnitude bigger than whatever

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<v Speaker 1>you're sort of expecting to do. Right, it's not a

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<v Speaker 1>little better, it's wildly better. It's almost unimaginably better, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you're thinking about, well, if I found a company,

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<v Speaker 1>how is it going to go? You know, you're probably

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<v Speaker 1>thinking this might be a million dollar company, right, but

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<v Speaker 1>the right hand distribution, the right hand tail of that

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be a billion dollar company, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>a thousand times bigger. And so in order for it

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<v Speaker 1>to be justified to choose that decision, if you really

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<v Speaker 1>do care linearly about money, if you really do think

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<v Speaker 1>that getting that marginal dollars worth a lot, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>even once you already have a lot of money, then

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<v Speaker 1>it should lead you to think that that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the best outcomes might be outcomes that have a ninety

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<v Speaker 1>nine percent chance of failure. Right, Because of ninety nine

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<v Speaker 1>percent chance of failure and a one percent chance of

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<v Speaker 1>that billion is still that's ten million, and that's a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>And so any kind that like there is some non zero,

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<v Speaker 1>non negligible chance of a really really good outcome are

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<v Speaker 1>times when you're gonna be incentivized more than seems natural,

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<v Speaker 1>probably to choose extreme outcomes. I feel like that maps

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<v Speaker 1>in different ways both to your work you do for

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<v Speaker 1>money and your altruism, which obviously are tied up, right,

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<v Speaker 1>They both seem like very much rooted in those extreme outcomes.

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<v Speaker 1>In the case of your work, it's an extremely large

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<v Speaker 1>amount of money in a short amount of time, and

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<v Speaker 1>in the case of the altruism, it's profoundly bad outcomes

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<v Speaker 1>like everybody dying. Right, Like, both of those are sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the same. In the kind of expected value universe,

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<v Speaker 1>there are things we should probably think more about than

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<v Speaker 1>seems intuitive if we're not using expected value, that's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, when you think, as you said the

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<v Speaker 1>altruism perspective, right, how many people will live if we

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<v Speaker 1>play our cards right as a world, like in the

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<v Speaker 1>ninetieth percentile outcome, how many people will live in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>The answer is trillions, probably maybe hundreds of trillions, rights

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<v Speaker 1>if thousands of times more than the number of people

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<v Speaker 1>who have ever lived. And so that's just that's a

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<v Speaker 1>huge factor, right, Anything that we do that actually has

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<v Speaker 1>impact on the whole future of the world is massively important.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of a ridiculous way to think at some level, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it just gets so big then, like you're just some

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<v Speaker 1>guy with a lot of money at some level, right,

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<v Speaker 1>talking about like trillions of people in the whole future

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<v Speaker 1>of humanity. Like it gets weird, Right, it does get

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<v Speaker 1>really weird. You should really stress us these and think like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>do I really believe this? Like, do I really actually

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<v Speaker 1>think that there's compelling evidence that like, you know, these

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<v Speaker 1>numbers that I'm looking at are as big as I'm

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<v Speaker 1>claiming they are, or am I kind of bullshitting myself

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<v Speaker 1>on this? Like, you know, you should absolutely have some

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<v Speaker 1>humility around that, But it's not totally implausible. And there

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<v Speaker 1>are examples of people people who we've heard of were

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<v Speaker 1>very famous, and people who no one has ever heard of,

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<v Speaker 1>who have had massive, massive impact on the world, who

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<v Speaker 1>have had that massive multiplier, And so it's not totally implausible.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, I think that like, while we

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<v Speaker 1>should absolutely have you know, a healthy dose of humility

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<v Speaker 1>towards extreme outcomes, you know, we should also acknowledge that

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<v Speaker 1>they can be real and that often the highest expected

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<v Speaker 1>value things are in fact pushing directly towards them. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>and in fact you did hit the extreme right tale

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<v Speaker 1>of the distribution in work right, you did just get

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<v Speaker 1>implausibly rich in a ridiculously short period of time. So

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<v Speaker 1>at least on that one it worked. That's right, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's that's certainly it's been a big update

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<v Speaker 1>towards me in the direction of life. This stuff is plausible.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh huh. So the fact that you got so rich

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<v Speaker 1>so fast in crypto does it make Does it push

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<v Speaker 1>your altruism toward like Welsh? Shit? If I could make

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<v Speaker 1>twenty billion dollars in three years, everybody on Earth could

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<v Speaker 1>in fact die from a pandemic or from some out

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<v Speaker 1>of control AI and I should spend some of the

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<v Speaker 1>money to try and reduce the probabilities of that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>is it like that? Yeah, it absolutely does. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it absolutely does make me think, you know what, like

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<v Speaker 1>these you know, really extreme outcomes are probably plausible, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're probably plausible enough that I should be taking them

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<v Speaker 1>really seriously, you know, And that has pretty profound implications

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<v Speaker 1>I think for what we should be doing. We'll get

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<v Speaker 1>to those profound implications and to exactly where Sam is

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<v Speaker 1>giving his money away in just a minute. That's the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the ads. Now we're going back to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Sam told me he's given away about two hundred million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars so far, which obviously is a lot, but it

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<v Speaker 1>is also somewhere around one percent of what he plans

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<v Speaker 1>to give away eventually. His giving has been broad anti poverty,

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<v Speaker 1>animal welfare, healthcare, but he has started to focus on

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<v Speaker 1>a few areas. One of the biggest is pandemic preparedness.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a category that fits right into that expected

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<v Speaker 1>value framework. You know, a low probability but super deadly

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<v Speaker 1>pandemic is worth spending a lot to prevent. Another place

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<v Speaker 1>where he's been giving is politics. Sam was one of

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest donors to President Biden's twenty twenty campaign. More recently,

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<v Speaker 1>he donated over ten million dollars to support a candidate

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<v Speaker 1>in a Democratic primary for a congressional seat in Oregon,

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<v Speaker 1>largely because that candidate wanted to focus on pandemic preparedness.

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<v Speaker 1>The primary was held just last week and Sam's candidate

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<v Speaker 1>lost by a lot. I think that there are a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of takeaways from it, and yeah, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>might do it again. I would do it a bit

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<v Speaker 1>differently than last time. But you know, fundamentally, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it was a well fought race. I think that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he had a real show. Um. And you know, going

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<v Speaker 1>back to the discussion of expected values, right, like, if

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<v Speaker 1>you're donating blacal races such that you think your candidates

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<v Speaker 1>are in ninety nine percent to weigh, you're almost certainly

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<v Speaker 1>doing something right because that person doesn't need your money exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>You should be donating such that you think that you

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<v Speaker 1>have a pretty substantial chance of losing. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I first stand by that. Do you expect you'll give

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of money in the twenty twenty four election cycle?

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<v Speaker 1>I would guess so. I don't know for sure. It's

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<v Speaker 1>going to depend on who's running, but you know I

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<v Speaker 1>would guess so, well, let's say Donald Trump runs for president.

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<v Speaker 1>Would that cause you to probably give a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>money to the person who's running against him? That's that's

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty decent guess. And and you know, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm going to be looking a lot less at

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<v Speaker 1>like political party, um from that perspective, and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>more about you know, uh same governance Like that is

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<v Speaker 1>you know, at it's for the thing that I think

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<v Speaker 1>I care the most governing governance. I think the United

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<v Speaker 1>States has both a big opportunity and big responsibility to

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<v Speaker 1>the world to shepherd the West in a powerful but

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<v Speaker 1>responsible manner, and that everything that we do there has massive,

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<v Speaker 1>massive ripple effects on what the future looks like. You've

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<v Speaker 1>talked before about being surprised at how little money is

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<v Speaker 1>in politics. It is quite small, the amount of money

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<v Speaker 1>that is donated relative to how much money the government spends. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>does that lead you to want to donate a lot?

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<v Speaker 1>But does it follow from that that, like, you'll probably

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<v Speaker 1>donate a lot of money? It follows that I might

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<v Speaker 1>in the end. That's basically what I think. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that like, there are in some ways, there's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in some ways surprisingly little money in politics, and given

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the scope of its impact, noe, that doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily mean they're good things to do donating politics, Like

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<v Speaker 1>it might be that, sure, but like, how are you

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<v Speaker 1>actually going to do anything useful? You know? Maybe that's

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<v Speaker 1>how it turns out, but but maybe not, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's not necessarily the case that more money

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<v Speaker 1>can have a meaningful effect on the outcome, That's right,

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<v Speaker 1>It's not necessarily the case, but it certainly gestures a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit in that direction. I mean, I imagine you

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<v Speaker 1>have some probability distribution in your mind of how much

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<v Speaker 1>money you might give in the next election cycle, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>give me some number. I would guess north of one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred million, um, And you know, as for how much

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<v Speaker 1>north of that, I don't know. You know, it really

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<v Speaker 1>does depend on what happens, Like it's really dependent on

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<v Speaker 1>exactly who's running where for why, like like these these

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<v Speaker 1>are are a super contingent thing. But um, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that gives maybe some sense of what the

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<v Speaker 1>what the sort of like scale might be here more

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<v Speaker 1>than one hundred million, sort of spread across many races, organizations,

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<v Speaker 1>but towards the twenty twenty four election. So if that's

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<v Speaker 1>a floor, what's the ceiling? Like a billion? Might you

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<v Speaker 1>give a billion? Yeah? I think that's a decent life

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<v Speaker 1>thing to look at as a as is sort of

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<v Speaker 1>like I mean, I would hate to say like hard

0:13:30.796 --> 0:13:32.716
<v Speaker 1>ceiling its whom those was going to happen between now

0:13:32.756 --> 0:13:35.196
<v Speaker 1>and then, but as like at least sort of a

0:13:35.236 --> 0:13:39.316
<v Speaker 1>soft ceiling, I would say, yeah, okay, So so the

0:13:39.356 --> 0:13:42.516
<v Speaker 1>ballpark is like one hundred million ish to a billion

0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:45.236
<v Speaker 1>ish with again a lot of caveats on this, and

0:13:45.356 --> 0:13:47.196
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a world which told end up being

0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:50.396
<v Speaker 1>close to zero if they're you know, things just work

0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:53.156
<v Speaker 1>out such that there isn't Is there much I'm excited about?

0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:55.996
<v Speaker 1>Like that seems like a very low probability to me,

0:13:56.196 --> 0:13:58.956
<v Speaker 1>based on what I know about you in the world. Yeah,

0:13:58.996 --> 0:14:01.156
<v Speaker 1>it's pretty I think it's I think it's very low

0:14:01.196 --> 0:14:03.036
<v Speaker 1>that it's actually gonna end up being zero. That does

0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:06.956
<v Speaker 1>seem pretty unlikely. Yeah, a billion seems way more likely

0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:11.836
<v Speaker 1>than zero to me. I think it's quaitely right. So

0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:14.516
<v Speaker 1>I think the most anybody gave last time, if I

0:14:14.556 --> 0:14:17.356
<v Speaker 1>have the right numbers, is two hundred and fifteen million.

0:14:18.196 --> 0:14:21.316
<v Speaker 1>That's for the twenty twenty cycle, the last presidential cycle.

0:14:22.596 --> 0:14:25.076
<v Speaker 1>It seems like you'll probably give more than that. Based

0:14:25.116 --> 0:14:27.436
<v Speaker 1>only on what you've told me, I think it is

0:14:27.476 --> 0:14:31.516
<v Speaker 1>eminently possible that I I think that that would not

0:14:31.596 --> 0:14:37.076
<v Speaker 1>surprise me. I've heard you say that you know, at

0:14:37.116 --> 0:14:39.516
<v Speaker 1>some points over the next few years, you hope to

0:14:39.556 --> 0:14:44.516
<v Speaker 1>find opportunities where you can spend give away like a

0:14:44.596 --> 0:14:48.316
<v Speaker 1>billion dollars really quickly. What are some of the places

0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:49.916
<v Speaker 1>you think that might happen. I mean, the election, the

0:14:49.916 --> 0:14:52.796
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four election is clearly one. What are a

0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:56.116
<v Speaker 1>few others? I think pandemic prevntion is potentially one of them.

0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:58.676
<v Speaker 1>I think you look at like how much would it

0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:02.756
<v Speaker 1>cost to you know, really definitely prevent the next pandemic

0:15:02.876 --> 0:15:04.756
<v Speaker 1>or you can never definitely prevent it, but to have

0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:07.436
<v Speaker 1>you know, a really good shot at it. I think

0:15:07.476 --> 0:15:11.156
<v Speaker 1>you're probably talking tens of billion dollars, which is crazy

0:15:11.236 --> 0:15:15.716
<v Speaker 1>that that governments aren't spending that money, right, that's right,

0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:17.796
<v Speaker 1>that really should be government spending it. And part of

0:15:17.796 --> 0:15:20.236
<v Speaker 1>this might be working with governments that because it's not

0:15:20.316 --> 0:15:22.836
<v Speaker 1>that much like if truly if they could reduce the

0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:26.996
<v Speaker 1>risk of a pandemic by half, say for thirty billion

0:15:27.076 --> 0:15:30.396
<v Speaker 1>dollars a year, like, do you actually think that is

0:15:30.476 --> 0:15:33.436
<v Speaker 1>that true? Or fifty billion? I think I think something

0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.356
<v Speaker 1>like that's probably true. I think something that's like not

0:15:36.436 --> 0:15:39.396
<v Speaker 1>too far off from that order of magnitude, and that

0:15:39.556 --> 0:15:42.836
<v Speaker 1>probably you know, by the time you're talking about you know,

0:15:43.076 --> 0:15:46.596
<v Speaker 1>many tens of million billions of dollars um. You know,

0:15:46.596 --> 0:15:48.556
<v Speaker 1>if that's something that you're probably going need to have

0:15:48.756 --> 0:15:52.036
<v Speaker 1>government stepping in on. But you know, I would be

0:15:52.236 --> 0:15:55.316
<v Speaker 1>happy to throw in a fair bit to help facilitate that.

0:15:56.076 --> 0:15:59.116
<v Speaker 1>So I should actually I should have asked this earlier.

0:15:59.156 --> 0:16:04.636
<v Speaker 1>But to what extent are your political donations a pandemic

0:16:04.716 --> 0:16:08.956
<v Speaker 1>prevention strategy? So I think most of them have been

0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:11.796
<v Speaker 1>so far, and you know, going forward, like there may

0:16:11.796 --> 0:16:14.876
<v Speaker 1>become other policy, you know, things like AI policy that

0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:17.276
<v Speaker 1>that that that you end up being really important. And

0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:19.716
<v Speaker 1>so it's not to say that like pandemics are the

0:16:19.756 --> 0:16:22.156
<v Speaker 1>only things that are ever going to matter to me policywise,

0:16:22.316 --> 0:16:24.276
<v Speaker 1>but that has been the big one so far, and

0:16:24.316 --> 0:16:27.596
<v Speaker 1>it's the idea there, like tens of billions of dollars

0:16:27.596 --> 0:16:30.796
<v Speaker 1>a year to significantly reduce the risk of another pandemic

0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:33.316
<v Speaker 1>is not that much for the government, but it's more

0:16:33.316 --> 0:16:35.596
<v Speaker 1>than you have, right, so you need a lever You

0:16:35.636 --> 0:16:38.596
<v Speaker 1>can't you can't actually spend all of your money and

0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:41.156
<v Speaker 1>meaningfully reduce the chances of another pandemic. And so if

0:16:41.156 --> 0:16:44.756
<v Speaker 1>you can use political donations to elect candidates who want

0:16:44.756 --> 0:16:48.236
<v Speaker 1>to spend money to prevent a pandemic, that works, that's right.

0:16:48.676 --> 0:16:53.036
<v Speaker 1>So you're giving lots of money to political candidates, you're

0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:57.276
<v Speaker 1>also doing a lot of work to um shape regulation

0:16:57.476 --> 0:17:00.676
<v Speaker 1>of crypto in the US, tell me about the overlap

0:17:00.716 --> 0:17:03.676
<v Speaker 1>between those two things. So most of the giving has

0:17:03.756 --> 0:17:07.996
<v Speaker 1>not been done with crypto in mind. And I have

0:17:08.116 --> 0:17:11.236
<v Speaker 1>been doing a ton of policy engagement on that, but

0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:16.636
<v Speaker 1>that's mostly going to DC and talking with policymakers. I mean,

0:17:16.676 --> 0:17:20.156
<v Speaker 1>here's the narrow version of the question. Is part of

0:17:20.196 --> 0:17:24.436
<v Speaker 1>what you want from your political donations some particular outcome

0:17:24.476 --> 0:17:28.876
<v Speaker 1>in crypto regulation? That is not a big part of it.

0:17:29.916 --> 0:17:32.596
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk more about crypto with Sam, but

0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:35.756
<v Speaker 1>our time was running short. I do promise to talk

0:17:35.916 --> 0:17:38.876
<v Speaker 1>more about crypto on the show before too long, and

0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:41.716
<v Speaker 1>Sam did have time for a quick lightning round. We'll

0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:53.036
<v Speaker 1>have that lightning round in a minute. Okay, let's get

0:17:53.076 --> 0:17:55.596
<v Speaker 1>back to the show. We're gonna close with the lightning round.

0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:58.756
<v Speaker 1>Let me just let's just do a lightning round. A

0:17:58.876 --> 0:18:02.876
<v Speaker 1>few quick questions and you can answer them fast. What's

0:18:02.916 --> 0:18:06.396
<v Speaker 1>the least rational thing you do? Least rational thing? I

0:18:06.516 --> 0:18:10.076
<v Speaker 1>know I spend way too much time like aimlessly browsing Facebook. Fee.

0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:13.236
<v Speaker 1>Is it true you still sleep on a bean bag chair?

0:18:13.276 --> 0:18:16.236
<v Speaker 1>And if so, why I did last night? I do

0:18:16.436 --> 0:18:21.316
<v Speaker 1>do many nights. Um, It's uh, I find it. I

0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:23.196
<v Speaker 1>kind of I don't know, it's what I'm used to

0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:25.036
<v Speaker 1>is honestly just part of the answer there. It's like,

0:18:25.356 --> 0:18:28.116
<v Speaker 1>it's what feels natural for me. If everything goes well,

0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:30.556
<v Speaker 1>what problem will you be trying to solve in five years?

0:18:31.716 --> 0:18:37.596
<v Speaker 1>I would say, the details of how to of what

0:18:37.716 --> 0:18:42.956
<v Speaker 1>to prioritize for pandemic prevention funding with you know institutes

0:18:42.996 --> 0:18:45.116
<v Speaker 1>that have been set up and are you know online

0:18:45.196 --> 0:18:47.396
<v Speaker 1>it a ton of capital into it, and you know

0:18:47.516 --> 0:18:50.276
<v Speaker 1>really great teams who are are devoting themselves to building

0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:53.356
<v Speaker 1>it out. So the dream is you'll be like deep

0:18:53.356 --> 0:18:56.276
<v Speaker 1>in the weeds figuring out how to prevent a pandemic.

0:18:56.836 --> 0:18:59.916
<v Speaker 1>Um I've seen in other interviews you're doing lots of

0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:02.316
<v Speaker 1>different things during the interview. I couldn't actually tell if

0:19:02.356 --> 0:19:04.636
<v Speaker 1>you were doing other things during this interview, But were

0:19:04.676 --> 0:19:07.116
<v Speaker 1>you and if so, what were you doing? As playing

0:19:07.156 --> 0:19:09.716
<v Speaker 1>game of Storybook for all? I say the name of

0:19:09.756 --> 0:19:13.476
<v Speaker 1>the game again, Storybook Brawl. How did you say it?

0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:17.116
<v Speaker 1>I took second place out of eight, could have been worse,

0:19:17.196 --> 0:19:19.996
<v Speaker 1>and I apologize I do have to haul off. Okay,

0:19:20.196 --> 0:19:22.156
<v Speaker 1>last one, what's one piece of advice you'd give to

0:19:22.156 --> 0:19:24.596
<v Speaker 1>somebody trying to solve a hard problem. One piece of

0:19:24.636 --> 0:19:29.516
<v Speaker 1>advice I would say, I just keep going, Just keep going,

0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:31.316
<v Speaker 1>stuff by stuff, you know, try and solve it, but

0:19:31.436 --> 0:19:33.716
<v Speaker 1>by bit, and you know, eventually, hopefully you'll get there.

0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:43.476
<v Speaker 1>Sam bankman Fried is the founder and CEO of FTX.

0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:48.636
<v Speaker 1>Today's show was produced by Edith Russlo, edited by Robert Smith,

0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:51.996
<v Speaker 1>and engineered by Amanda K. Wong. You can reach us

0:19:52.036 --> 0:19:56.516
<v Speaker 1>at problem at Pushkin dot fm, or you can find

0:19:56.516 --> 0:20:00.316
<v Speaker 1>me on Twitter at Jacob Goldstein. I'm Jacob Goldstein and

0:20:00.356 --> 0:20:02.876
<v Speaker 1>I'll be back next week with another episode of What's

0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:09.716
<v Speaker 1>Your Problem