WEBVTT - How to Get Dressed for Work 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.040 Before we start the show, we have an announcement. After 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.440 a year and a half of Game Plan, we're going 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.680 to be putting this show on hold. We're sad about 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:10.440 not getting to talk to you guys every week, but 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.040 if you have a half big take that you've been 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:19.400 sitting on, now's the time to call it in. I've 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.600 been working for almost two decades and there's one thing 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.880 about professional life. I'm still kind of stumped about what 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.200 to wear. I'm not completely clueless, but like a lot 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.000 of us, I still have some work fashion questions. I've 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.680 just been afraid to ask. Well, that's all going to 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:52.360 change today. This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Francesco Leafy 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.560 and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and this week we are talking 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.560 about what to wear to work. This is a something 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.600 that feels like it's super related to actually like doing 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.440 a good job, but it turns out that even if 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.680 it shouldn't, what you wear actually matters. I hate that 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:12.720 it does because I want to live in a world 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.360 where it doesn't matter, but people judge you. Yeah. Um, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:21.000 And there has been like a weirdly high number of 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.319 studies done on how what you wear affects how you 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.559 work and they've come up with all kinds of conclusions 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:32.280 about the psychological effect of your clothing on your productivity 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.479 and just like how you feel about your job. There's 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.759 one study that said dressing up at work so kind 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.440 of like dressing a little more formally than whatever is 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:45.720 expected of you at your job, helps you with creative 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.080 thinking because basically it makes you feel like a big 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.680 shot and therefore like you're you're high above the fray. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.560 You don't think about like the small details, you think 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.760 about the big ideas. I remember another one that was 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.040 that found that the people who wore suits in the 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.520 study ended up negotiating for more money. They had to 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.840 do a negotiation, So it was like, you feel like 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.760 important and powerful and big, so you're throw and you 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:15.480 get more powerful. Um. And there's also the converse of that, 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.679 which is that if you wear casual clothes, one study 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.200 showed that that makes you somehow better at carrying out instructions. 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.120 So I guess like it actually it can be good, 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:27.799 but it sort of makes you feel like you're less 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:29.800 important in the office, but it makes you good at 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.679 following directions. Maybe that's why a lot of industries, like 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.399 service industries have uniforms. I mean, I don't think that's 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.160 only why, but you know they want workers to fall inline. 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.720 You're one member of a very big workforce, um, and 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.840 your uniform reminds you of that. We also, in a 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.040 Bloomberg article a couple of years ago, wrote about how 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.000 wearing branded clothing makes you more confident. So if you 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:58.079 have a logo on your clothes, that can that can 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.360 increase your confidence, and further more, you can actually take 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.799 on some of the characteristics that you associate with that brand. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.560 So like if you're wearing Nike shoes, I guess you'd 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.880 people were inclined to just do it, So it's not 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:15.519 necessarily the brand of your own company, but just lame brand, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.640 right like that that the logo makes a difference in 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.040 how you feel about what you're able to do. I mean, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.040 it's kind of crazy how much of an effect our 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.639 clothes end up having on how we think about ourselves. Yeah, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.000 it's not just that people are looking at you and 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.440 judging you. You're you're internalizing what you're wearing. So whether 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.080 you like it or not, what you wear matters. But 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.920 figuring out how to dress the right way, even if 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.480 you know, kind of like what you're going for isn't 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.880 always the simplest throwing on a blazer um or a 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.560 power suit. There's there's no manual for how to transition 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.480 your wardrobe when your job changes. Yeah, there was the 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.200 whole debate about this, saying that the office dress code 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.880 has gone away, so it's even harder now for people. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.440 I don't know that I necessarily agree with this, but 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.600 there's the idea that before everyone just wore business casual 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.640 um and that for a man meant like khaki pants 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.440 and a button down, and for women it was one 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.280 of those a line pencil skirts. But now there's probably 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.760 a lot more variety in industries. I would say that 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.960 still within industries and offices there's a dress code, and 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:21.960 and we did an episode on this about a year 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.279 ago looking into the office dress code and if it's 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.400 dead or not. We argue that it's alive and well, 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.880 but I do think, yeah, it's there's more variation with 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.320 among the industries now. I think that variation can be 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.560 tough because I think it actually ends up meaning that 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.240 there are still rules, it's just harder to figure out 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.440 what they are. So it's easy enough if you know 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.160 everybody at your job wears a blazer, just have to 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.920 find the right blazer. But when it seems like there 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.840 are no rules about what you wear, but you know 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.080 that there are kind of secret codes and people are 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.520 following them, and there's all this variety and what you 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.000 can buy and what people are saying it's okay to work. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.640 I feel like you walk into that without a background 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.240 of dressing a certain way for work, and you can 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:09.560 get really confused, and that's kind of annoying and inconvenient. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.119 I remember when I first started working, I was working 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.200 in d C, which is much more formal than here 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.320 New York. People wear business casuals. So I just bought 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.240 a bunch of skirts and tops and I did wear 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.520 them for probably the first six months of my working life, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.360 but have not touched them since because that's not really 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.599 how people dressed in our industry. They're probably not in 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.920 style anymore. Also, yeah, that was a while ago, and 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:33.560 I don't I don't even want to know what I 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.640 was wearing. And they were probably cheap. There's a lot 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.159 wrong with that. But I had like the I think 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.919 the pain points here really are transitions. So it's like 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.919 when you go from school, you know, college are graduate 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:48.160 school to professional life, or you go from one industry 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.479 to an industry where everybody dresses kind of different, or 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.720 you just go from kind of a lower level job 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.279 to a higher level one where you're expected to wear 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.520 more formal clothes, and how you plan for those transitions. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:01.640 That that's the thing, I think where people really don't 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.320 know what to do. Like I remember I bought an 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.240 interview suit that was probably the first suit I ever bought, 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.280 um right out of college, and I bought it from 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.520 and I remember exactly what it looked like. It was 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.800 like it was a it was a what do you 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:18.200 call it a skirt suit. I mean it was like 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:23.400 a skirt and a blazer, and it was linen with 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.039 like this was like white linen with this weird kind 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:31.080 of metallic plaid pattern over it. And I thought it 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.040 was like the classiest, fanciest thing I've ever seen at 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.039 the time, and I thought it looked great on me, 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.000 and I'm sure it's like instilled me with all kinds 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.320 of confidence that those job interviews that I wore too, 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.760 And then I just continued wearing it and it was 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.120 like the only suit I owned for literally like ten 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.640 years because I worked in nonprofits right out of school, 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.560 and it just like wasn't a it wasn't a suit 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.039 wearing kind of place. So once a year, when I 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:56.520 had a meeting that was important enough that I had 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:57.960 to wear a suit, I throw on this suit and 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.400 at some point I realized, like, I only own one 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.320 suit and it's ten years old. And that's like, I 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.960 think you get yourself into these bndes. Yeah, And even 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.919 if you're not transitioning to a different industry, what happens 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.240 to me is every time I start a new job, 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.640 it's in the same industry. I am like, this time, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.240 I'm gonna dress better than I used to, And I 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.520 go out and I buy some like upgraded work where 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.440 and then I wear it again for about six months 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.080 and then I'm back to my uniform. Yeah, you always 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.120 go back to your default, but you can only really 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.240 dress like you. Yeah, So I think I will learn well. 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.280 I think the question is how do you dress like 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.480 you and also dress for work? And we have an 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.280 expert here who's going to help us with that question 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:48.320 and many more. Chris Browser is the editor of Bloomberg Pursuits, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.000 our Luxury and Lifestyle Vertical and just an all around 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:59.880 stylish guy. So, Chris, we're going to ask you to 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.400 solve some of our big fashion problems. But before we 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.640 get into that, do you have a general philosophy on 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.160 how to dress for work? Like, what's your big idea 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.800 about this? So my big idea is that less is 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.760 actually more. You don't want to be out there trying 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.040 to be the flashyest person in the office, not only 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.520 because you just can't keep that going for such a 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.840 long time, but also if you wear flashy outfits, people 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.280 remember that outfit and then if you have to wear 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.880 it again in like four days, people will remember that 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.560 you wore it a few days ago. Whereas if you 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.920 have like a bunch of staples and things that you 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.720 rely on, but you kind of always look the same 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.040 and you can kind of wear the same clothes over 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.720 and over and over again. Yeah, I definitely wear the 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.600 same black jeans and just assume people think I own 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:48.040 twenty pairs and black jeans. Yeah, that's that's the thing. Um, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.080 Like fashion people are known for having uniforms. A lot 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:52.920 of fashion people, you know, they work at Vogue, but 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:57.120 they wear black, just sort of simple black shirts and pants, 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.719 and that's because they know, like you can't you kind 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.360 of can't do it every day if you're trying to 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.680 be a sort of flashier make a statement. They just 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.360 it's easier just to look like you and have people 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.240 not really pay attention to it. So you mentioned the 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.320 uniform thing. There was a big debate I remember, started 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.480 by the New York Times, of course, where they argued 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.120 that it was the end of the office dress code. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.079 Where do you fall on that the line of that debate, 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.000 I think we actually right now we're kind of going 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.160 back into an era of formality. I it's sort of 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.840 I get a sense of a grown upness and what 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.560 people are wearing. I think for a while, uh, when 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.800 sort of hipsters ruled the roost, everything was open plan 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.720 and you know, norm core was kind of the look. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.040 People kind of became a little bit more shlubby, I 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.600 would say, like five years ago. And now, you know, 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.760 offices are realizing that a little bit of formality actually helps. 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.800 So people are getting offices again. Um, people are wearing 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.000 lace up shoes, and I sense a sort of return 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.840 to let's get dressed up, let's be adults in the office. Okay, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:10:00.200 speaking of schlubby, when is it okay to where means 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.480 at the office, because my my answer is like always, 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.480 but I could be wrong. I mean, I think it's 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.880 different for women and men. I think women can wear 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.280 jeans in a way that looks a little bit more 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.880 dressy than men, although sort of dark washed jeans are 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.400 kind of always a reliable, uh staple. Do you think 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.960 there's an age or a rank in the office where 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.560 you grow out of jeans? I've been worrying about this recently. 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.680 Am I too old for jeans? Do I look like 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.280 a college student? I think it depends on the workplace. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:25.920 I think if you're in an office where a fair 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.440 number of people wear suits, then if you are at 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.640 a level of seniority where you manage people, you probably 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.200 are getting to the point where you can't wear jeans 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.560 that often. So kind of like, look at the people 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.480 above you maybe see I think my manager wears jeans. Yeah, 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.640 I mean, well we're journalists, right like we people wear 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.679 shorts to this office, you know, other people are a 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.800 little bit more formal. I remember my brother is a 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.840 lawyer at a hedge fund, and I remember the day 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.880 that they started being allowed to wear jeans, and he 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.360 would wear what he would normally wear, like a sort 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.920 of button down oxford, maybe a tie, but just replace 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.720 the pants with jeans and you have the whole outfit 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.160 has to make sense together. So you know, if you're 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.480 if you feel like it's a little formally you have 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.320 to dress up on top that you're throwing jeans on, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.680 that's probably misguided. This is probably a good time to 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:17.120 ask about work transitions, like when you do have a 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.760 change in dress code at the office, like you just described, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.920 or you go from uh one job where things are 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.680 slightly more casual to a job where things are more formal, 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.240 or you just go from school to work, like you've 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.800 been in graduate school wearing sweatpants every day and now 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.080 you have to have a work outfit. Like how do 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.920 you deal with this, the need to basically suddenly change 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.160 your whole wardrobe. I mean, I think what you can't 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.520 avoid is a big shopping trip, you know. I I've 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.560 switched jobs where I'm like, oh, I gotta like upgrade 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:48.880 my wardrob But you sort of try to do it 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:50.560 piece by piece, but then you're still really kind of 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.680 wearing the same stuff you always were. You have to 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.400 bite the bullet and just go shopping and buy a 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.600 bunch of things, and so you know, if you don't 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.320 have a ton of money, go to a place like 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.360 top Shop or Zara, have good clothes that fits. Um My, 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.400 the blazer I get the most compliments on is one 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.720 from top Shop, and I definitely have ones from more 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.160 expensive places. Um. And then the other thing I would 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.960 say is throw away the things that don't fit you. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.720 Everyone has stuff in their closet that's like, you know, 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.240 oh I wear this, I can put it under a 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.800 sweater and like it sort of fits, and or like 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.360 this tie has a stained on it, but like you know, 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.160 if I if I button my blazer, no one sees. Um, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.439 gotta throw that stuff away because you're gonna be tempted 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.480 to use it, to wear it, and just get rid 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.680 of it, and then that will elevate your sort of 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.280 baseline wardrobe. And finally, when you're shopping, I think the 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.720 key thing to remember is get stuff that fits you well. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.760 Don't get stuff that you necessarily think is particularly you know, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.280 more beautiful than fits well. Like fit is the ultimate 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.280 expensive looking attribute. If your clothes fits you well, it 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.880 looks much more cheek and much more expensive. Then if 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.160 you have something made up some wonderful fabric or whatever 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.040 that was from a fancy label that doesn't fit you 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.680 as well. When you talk about going on a shopping trip, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.720 my immediate thought is, I don't want to spend so 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.960 much money. So is there a hack for people who 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.559 are budget conscious or who just don't have the money 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.640 to spend on a whole new wardrobe. The real answer 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.320 is to have, you know, kind of a uniform where 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.760 you can swap in and out things. So if you're 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.240 a woman, go get, um, you know, some pants, get 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.560 some simple dresses that you can accessorize and that you know, 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.360 sort of are the blank palette on which you can 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.600 build a bunch of different outfits that look different even 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.120 though you're really kind of wearing the same clothes. Like 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.880 for men, I often recommend go out, get three suits, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.280 get them wherever you can afford them. Um, you know, 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.600 get a gray one, get a navy one, and then 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.320 maybe get another color. Um. And you know, if if 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.000 it looks nice enough, you can wear the blazer with 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.760 a different pair of pants. Uh, And you can. No 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.320 one's really looking at your suit. They're looking at your 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.000 tie and your shirt and your shoes and your socks. 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.280 So if you have those three things you can really 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.319 rotate it around. It's like Marge simpsons sannel suit from 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.280 the Simpsons, you know, like you can you can make 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.600 a lot of looks out of one suit. What about 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.760 something that you kind of can't get away with saving on, Like, 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.040 is there one thing that you think everyone should just blur? 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.400 John m Yeah, that's a good question. I think. I 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.800 think you can't overestimate how much your shoes affect the 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.480 way that you look. And uh, bad shoes fall apart. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:15.960 They look bad really quickly, and if you don't take 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.600 care of your shoes, it just makes the whole outfit 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.560 looks schlubby. So um. You know. For men, I often say, 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.400 go get a pair of black laceups, brown laceups, maybe 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.080 a brogue, and then take really good care of them. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.240 You know, go to a shoeshine place. It costs four dollars, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.120 get shoe trees and keep them in the shoes so 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.520 they're stretched out. And the same thing with women. You know, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.280 get shoes that are comfortable, that that accentuate any outfit 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.720 that you can wear a lot. And you know, if 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.280 you're wearing a nice outfit, but then you're wearing sneakers 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.320 or like super comfortable office shoes that throws the whole 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.480 outfit out of whack. So I think the shoes are 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.800 actually really a good investment. So women often have this 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.680 issue in the summer of being cold in the office 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.120 because most off is a really over air conditioned and 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.880 having to have some kind of sweater strategy. And this 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.000 is often like a fleece you don't really care about 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.040 that you can leave over the back of your office chair, 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.840 or some piece of swag that you got as part 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:15.680 of a gift bag for a corporate event, and it 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.640 never goes with your outfit, and it's always really obvious that, like, 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:21.920 you got dressed at home and now you're cold and 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.040 you're walking around in this thing. How do you deal 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.080 with the office sweater problem? Well, first of all, I'm 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.560 glad that we're talking about the office temperature issue because 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.560 as a longtime listener to this podcast, I know that 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.800 this is a recurring theme. And also I said on 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.440 the same floor as you guys, and can attest to 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.720 the fact that there are constant temperature wars on our floor. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.840 Um Like literally you turn around the like one corner 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.960 of the floor and it's like you're walking into a sauna. 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:53.480 And um so I also have an office sweater and it's, uh, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.160 you know, it's a dark cardigan. I'm not necessarily like 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.440 a cardigan person, but it's the same thing as what 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.920 you're describing. You kind of have to have something like that. 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.400 I think the best solution is to wear something dark, 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.240 um and that fits you pretty well. It's not super 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.960 slubby um that you can button up or not button up. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.800 That that's almost like a blazer in the way that 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.400 it could potentially make your outfit look a little bit 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.720 more formal when you put it on. Like there's been 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:19.880 times when I've had to go on TV here and 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.080 I wasn't wearing a blazer and I put on a 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.960 cardigan and I'm not saying it looks amazing, but it's 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.600 sort of solved the sort of visual graphic issue. And 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.800 I think that's probably your safest bad you know. I 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.120 think somebody else might tell you just to go schlubby 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:35.960 and just be like the look, I'm not trying to 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.400 look like, I'm just trying to be warm because you 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.680 jerks are turning the temperature down all the time. Um, 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.840 So I don't know. I would go for the sort 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.480 of neat and trim thing, but definitely someone else might 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.400 tell you just to love it up. So if you're 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.960 passive aggressive, you get the ugly hoodie to be like, 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.320 people make your up. I think you know, I would 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.280 stop short of something that you have to pull over 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.280 your head it put on, because that is a really 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:04.960 aggressive a look be you can mess up your hair 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:09.160 and it's just like you're like, I've given up. You know, 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.639 I am fully covered up. There's no chance that I 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.360 might have to dash to a meeting and like look 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.200 nice and like this is what I look like today. 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.080 What about the opposite temperature problem that men have, which 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:23.160 is in the summer, it's hot out and they can't 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.880 wear shorts to work, or maybe they can according to you, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.479 I'm not sure. I suspect you'd say, now, um, so 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.359 how do you dress in that scenario? So this is 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.360 a real issue in New York for guys. I mean, 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.120 I can't tell you the amount of times I've showed 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.639 up to work and I've like sweated through my clothes. 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.440 And I know people who bring other shirts to work. 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.880 You know, Um, I think you have to for me, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.199 I have to sort of find out what my like 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.520 heat points are, so like my ankles get very hot. 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.639 That's like a touch point for me, and so I 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.560 will often do that. Look where you, uh, you're wearing 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.480 like little no show socks in your shoes, sort of 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.159 nice stress shoes, and then you kind of roll up 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.399 the ankle the ankle of your pant so that you 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.119 get a little like breathing there. I think, Um, you know, 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.880 depending on where you are, maybe that's maybe that for you. 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.440 Is you wear a nice uh button down shirt that 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.359 is actually short sleeved and you wear it with a 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.840 tie or depending on where you are, maybe air tie. Uh. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:20.959 You've got to just figure out, like where you can 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.919 vent your heat. The ability to wear shorts really is 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.480 just based on what where, what your office is like. Like, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.480 there are definitely engineers in this building that wear shorts 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.320 every day in the summer, and I know exactly who 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:32.600 they are. If I see them out on the street, 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.840 I'll be like, you're the guy that wear shorts every day. Um, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.439 And I think because we have a broad range of 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.919 people here, you can do that. But if you're in 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.960 an office where almost everyone we wears a suit, you 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.960 absolutely cannot wear shorts. I want to get a little 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.000 deeper into the shorts thing, because deep, yeah, let's do it. 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.280 Let's ask the hard questions because I don't even I've 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.199 never worn shorts to the office, and I don't consider 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.800 myself a particularly formal person. But that's like one threshold 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.199 I haven't crossed yet. Are there rule for if you 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:02.800 decide you're going to take the punch and you're gonna 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.360 try to wear shi I know it depends on your 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.720 office dress code, but like, should you always wear a 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.040 certain type of shoes or should you do something else 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.960 to your outfit to balance at the shorts wearing. That's 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.159 a good question. Um, I think that you have to 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.679 have the kind of outfit that people look at you 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.320 and you're they're like, oh, that is a fashionable person 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.439 who made a choice to wear those shorts today. That 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.520 was like, the shorts are the best thing for that outfit. 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.840 So for me, that would be, you know, well tailored shorts, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.439 maybe in a color, not just like some khaki shorts 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.320 that you would wear on the weekend. You wear a 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.280